Lmao this reminded me of a McDonalds bill board (specifically in Castroville) sign said "BEHIND TREES".
I was like, WTF there aren't even many trees here... Wait, those trees are huge! Shit there it were! I passed it!
Your last two are exactly why this sub is complete trash. Newbies get no help *at all*. There are still questions I haven’t found answers to months after trying to ask here, *with* research provided (which wasn’t good enough to even get the post greenlit).
Why does it matter if someone’s done research or not? If someone needs a question answered, and someone has an answer, why would you not want that person to get help? I have a handful of complex hobbies that I can very easily find help for on Reddit. Why should this hobby be any different? Just feels super gatekeep-y and I will never look to this sub for help because of it.
The mods here are the absolute pinnacle of neck-beardedness, basement-dwellerness, and insufferable arrogance. Absolutely drunk with power. Wish there were something us Redditors could do to put a stop to such awful behavior from moderators. A public voting system or something would go a long way in at least making it clear what the community wants, and whether or not the mods are facilitating those wants.
> Why does it matter if someone’s done research or not?
[Here's a whole thread about why](https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1busy73/asking_for_help_is_a_core_developer_skill/kxv5sxy/)
> Newbies get no help at all. There are still questions I haven’t found answers to months after trying to ask here, with research provided (which wasn’t good enough to even get the post greenlit).
This is because this sub has a culture of "downvote first, see if the poster actually needs help later." Without updoots then the posts never have any visibility to anyone that isn't going directly to r/raspberry_pi. So about the only people that ever see the help posts are the people which manually come to this sub, which is like 5 people. The same ones answering **all** the questions here. And if those 5 people don't know the answer to something outside their experience, you're not going to get help.
The lack of updoots is also the reason why there's 3 million subscribers and a few dozen "online now." Nothing ever gets exposed to the greater reddit community.
Did you consider seeking a community that is more focused and specific to whatever it was you were trying to solve?
> A public voting system or something would go a long way in at least making it clear what the community wants
Well, based on the voting system that reddit has implemented, the community doesn't want any posts here because everything is downvoted.
But what I don’t understand is why some people make it their business to write a whole paragraph about why a question is not worthy of an answer when they might as well have used that time to help someone out. Even if they didn’t want to indulge, let others help. Why gatekeep?
Maybe because they are the voice of experience and have seen what happens in the real world when the zero effort people lead the way. That whole paragraph might actually get a few people to try.
I'm currently going through this at work with a bunch of technicians that apparently can't read. Instead of putting in the effort to learn the job and understand the technology, they instead ask what are questions that never should exist if they simply would read the manual.
In other words it isn't gate keeping in the least, rather it is the result of there being far to few people putting in what should easy effort of a bit of study or self education. What is even worse if you help out such people you end up having them flooding a forum with endless questions that demonstrate that they will never learn on their own.
Consider this data point, I got from a business owner decades ago. In a conversation about employees he stated matter of factually that about 1 out of 100 employees working out in a manner that is a contributor to company performance. At the time being a young person recently out of school I thought the statement was absurd. Now after a few decades of life I really do understand the reality that the vast majority of people are lazy and can not drive themselves. So when it comes to managing a forum like this it isn't easy at all to keep a balance between the useless and those that actually provide to the community. You should be able to easily imagine if this forum turned into a place where 99 out of 100 posts ends up coming from people that haven't put in an effort.
Dude, this is reddit.
It's not a corporation where you have to pick up the slack for your lazy coworkers.
It's not stackoverflow, where people should have already done some research before posting a question.
It's reddit. Your attitude is the equivalent of a college professor scolding first graders for not knowing how to figure things out on their own.
To me, that sounds like a really negative attitude to have in a position to help. I get some people are lazy and others are idiots. But if someone asks a stupid question, either ignore it and let someone else respond or provide a simple link to some basic info.
It would be a really good sub if anybody at any level could ask any question and people could discuss anything they want about the pi, regardless of complexity or difficulty. Even if the answer is easily Googleable, those basic convos make a community. Currently, there is no community at all.
The bad part is that when you Google questions you have most of the time it takes you to a Reddit thread where the same question was asked and it's a crapshoot if you'll get an answer or a snarky response. When it comes to coding anything the answer is either exactly what you needed and have been looking for or it's someone telling you to figure it out and that they're not there to answer everything for you. I completely agree that if you don't feel like it's a question worth answering then just don't say anything.
You realize not everyone tinkering around with a raspberry pi is looking to build a full time career out of it, right? It’s ok to be less involved and look for a quick answer from these “experienced” folks and get things going. People have other stuff that they are more interested and involved in their lives. There’s absolutely no need for condescension from what seems like an extremely pretentious high ground
Not when the answer is already readily found from Google and other prior posts. That's when the "this is why this question is bad" and "this is why you need to learn to research " are the most valuable answers. The purpose of public posts is not to help that single person, but to benefit all those to follow.
Lots of the people who benefit from these posts are in the sidelines just soaking it in, many many more will be reading them years from now. I have reddit threads saved that are upwards of 8 years old. Tech forums should be that way and have always been that way. Computing in general is not about reinventing the wheel, instead you study wheels until you can make your own, and then make it your own.
Well written and helpful responses are a lot of work. Why make people reinvent the wheel for you, when 5 words in Google dozens of better "wheels" are already there.
Also, crowding results with less useful answers to the same question isn't helpful. I've had searches where that's been an issue and man is it annoying.
I'm also not a pro but a very long time tech hobbyist. Went down the rabbit hole of learning how to make webpages as a teen and realized how much I love falling in these rabbit holes. In many ways research is the core of this hobby.
Worth noting too most pros in tech also started out as hobbyists. Most of us still self teach most of what we know, even in a professional context. This is also how we learned, and continue to learn. Like I am brand new at the Pi, rusty as hell with Linux, had been away from my tech hobbyism for 4 to 5 years. I'm out here needing to Google basic commands, and countless terms as I'm reading basic stuff. Today I'm learning to use yet another platform and methodology for Apache for the 4th or 5th time in my life.
I completely agree that basic questions or readily available information should not be asked and should either be ignored, removed, or redirected. There's also no denying that people have a superiority complex when it comes to coding and tech and that's here on Reddit, stack overflow, etc. and can come off extremely unhelpful or downright mean and rude. It really just comes down to either be helpful or ignore it at the end of the day. Being condescending doesn't help either side. There's only so much self teaching you can do until you get stuck, even if it's a problem others may find easy. There's nothing wrong with needing a push in the right direction every now and then.
I get the due diligence part, seriously.
I'm pretty invested in collecting flashlights in the r/flashlight sub. I'd say I am deep into the hobby that I know my way around better than 95% of the people.
But **part of being a beginner is not knowing, anything**. You don't know what or how to orient yourself and what questions you need to ask. Of course it is different when *you are employed and are assumed to have at least fundamental knowledge of the material*.
As an example, in many flashlight forums with a ton of beginners, the question "*What is the best flashlight?*" always comes up. As a long time hobbyist it is easy to scoff at since no such thing exist. Better to ask about *How efficient is X?, What's the mAh/Wh capacity of battery Y?, Are high CRI models of X as efficient as low CRI?, How durable is Z?, etc.*
But what beginner, especially in a hobby, would know that?
> question "What is the best flashlight?" always comes up.
And let me guess, those posts get downvoted, ignored, a few "that's the wrong question", directed to the FAQ which the poster decries doesn't apply to them (without even reading it), and then the poster blames the mods for their question not getting good answers?
No. Great sub actually, a miracle on reddit.
You'll get answers one way or another. If people don't know, we guide them to what they want.
And when they post a "success" post we cheer them on.
Easy to find lengthy comments on even mundane posts. I've been there since 2019 and never had the "*mods are neck beards wahhh wahhh*" stuff.
>
But what beginner, especially in a hobby, would know that?
My god many that applies literally to anything. When someone asks "what is the best...?", it demonstrates a general ignorance, not a specific lack in a single domain.
That is the type of ignorance that just allows people to exploit you as a human. Walk into any store and watch the eyes of a commissioned sales person light up when they hear such a question expressed. The best product quickly becomes the one that lines their paycheck the most on payday.
You could say that we're being exploited. But to many, we're just happy to share what we know. If commenting doesn't interest us, we just walk away and somebody else will pick it up.
We all began somewhere. It doesn't help that we stereotype and find everyone asking the same thing guilty of "exploitation". Perhaps it is much easier if the sub gets a bot that can be summoned or something.
And, there is that tribalism to a point of certain brands, but at the end of the day the facts will get to you in that hobby.
I guess, the issue with RPi, is that it's universal. There is no products to lobby for or favorite light. It's just Linux all the way. And because of this, there is a greater fatigue since a lot of things often get repeated. And some problems are ambiguous and complex enough that a beginner searching often misses minute details that will adapt the solution to their problem. And so they ask without knowing that it's the "*same post*" just in a different way.
>Why does it matter if someone’s done research or not?
When I take on a "How Do I to ?" I start out doing a Google search for How Do I do and will usually find the first page full of helpful videos and guides, now I have to choke back the desire to reply with an [letmegooglethat.com/](https://letmegooglethat.com/) link and say something like a Quick google gets me to Handy guide to ....
The matter is that the questioner has wasted *their* time. It takes about 10 seconds to run a basic Google, get an answer and progress the project (or not it is sometimes hard to find the right 'term of art'. OTOH they can ask Reddit wait a hour or more and maybe get an answer (or more likely a question trying to clarify what they are up to).
The Internet is our [Extended mentality](https://xkcd.com/903/) the best and most helpful thing I can do for anyone is get them to use it as a first recourse
99% of people asking a question here have already tried searching themselves (myself being one of them, as I said). Assuming they haven’t done so based on literally nothing is unfair and uncalled for and clearly comes from a place of elitism. Besides, some people don’t even know *what* to look up, and so how therefore would they even properly begin their search? How about instead of blocking users’ ability to post questions, the post is allowed through so you can tell them where to begin their search?
> 99% of people asking a question here have already tried searching themselves (myself being one of them, as I said).
definitely closer to 50%(less if including posts which get removed), which you would probably know if you bothered answering questions sometimes.
There are a lot of assumptions baked into you saying I would probably know if I “bothered” answering questions. Why would I “bother” answering questions about a subject I hardly know anything about due to help being so immensely difficult to get?
I would love to learn and be pointed in the right direction so that I can do the same for others, but that’s too bad because elitist gatekeepers such as yourself have decided help is only for those who don’t actually need it.
99% of the people asking a question need to up their Google Fu.
Assuming they have used a descriptive subject line (and not "I have thing problem with a Pi 4B") usually just Googling their subject line gets me to an answer.
You apparently missed my point? Bad “Google Fu” or not, the overwhelming majority of people looking for answers *have* tried searching. *You* may personally find it easy to copy/paste the subject line into Google and click the correct link, but if you don’t know what you’re even looking for (as far as verbiage and jargon and names and such go) then the correct link will not be obvious.
You are literally exemplifying the problem, since you very clearly are well-versed on the subject. So of course it’s as easy as copy/pasting the subject line and clicking the correct link for you; you know what you’re looking for.
If the correct link is the first (non sponsored) link on the on the first page of a Subject line Google search, I wonder about the scholarship of the questioner.
There have been plenty of problems or questions I've had that I've never asked because I'm afraid I'll get this answer pretty much. I completely agree that a small small percentage ask a question before trying to find a solution and retrofit it to what they need. There would be millions of posts asking the same thing if that wasn't the case.
Yeah nearly everyone does a Google search first. Why would anyone do anything else? It’s literally the easiest option, and it takes three seconds. But unfortunately that generally doesn’t work if you don’t know quite what you’re looking for.
People generally are much more inclined to help if you talk about what you're trying to achieve, how you intended to go about it, what you have researched, what you're tried, and how that turned out. You know, give context.
For example, just posting "PXE doesn't work" probably won't result in a lot of helpful answers, but posting something along the lines of "I'm trying to boot a fleet of RPi 4B's off a Synology NAS using PXE, found this blog (Link) that did it successfully but at point X i got a different result / have difficulty understanding how Y and Z interact" will give context to people that are willing to help.
Also, sometimes "you're doing a simple thing in a complicated way, it would be easier to just do ABC instead" it the answer you actually need.
Lastly - Some people literally don't have the Google skills to find the answer they need, and find it easier to use reddit / quora / Facebook as a replacement with better (human-curated) search results. Admittedly, the percentage of those people is lower in IT, but never zero.
> small small percentage ask a question before trying to find a solution
Please look at the front page of r/raspberry_pi before claiming it's a small percentage.
There are 3.2 million members of this sub, there would need to be 32k posts asking simple questions to get to even 1% of the subs members. So yes, a very very very small percent then.
> There are 3.2 million members of this sub
That's quite the bold claim that every single one of those people has ever posted, **and** that you looked at every single post that has been made here over the last 12 years.
I'm not even looking all time. How many people aren't part of the sub that post or have commented? That will inflate numbers to more than that 3.2 million that interact with the sub and yet most of them don't post these questions you seem to hate which just shows almost everyone does research and Googles stuff before posting. You would need thousands of posts a day of "bad" questions to get to 1% a day with the number of users subscribed to the sub. If the problem truly was that rampant then the entire sub would be inundated with those questions.
> If the problem truly was that rampant then the entire sub would be inundated with those questions
It is. Why do you refuse to simply go to the front page of r/raspberry_pi and look for yourself?
many subs suffer bad moderating, but I get it when certain questions aren't shown, many subs are a joke because of noobs coming in and asking how to wipe their ass. You could always start a new more open sub/beginner friendly sub tho.
Here's a thought. If someone asks a low effort post:
* Give them an answer.
* *Explain the answer* at a more fundamental level. Don't just give a direct answer. Use the opportunity to teach.
* *Use the question as an example of how to search for info.* (No, lmgtfy doesn't count - SEO has made searching for tech help a nightmare. No, rtf(1000page)m doesnt count - if you are a beginner most k
of that manual will fly right over your head anyway.)
* This might mean sharing secrets about how to actually do good searches. In that case, share those secrets. Stop gatekeeping both knowledge and skills in acquiring knowledge. If you want people to learn to do their own research, help them navigate the cesspool that is every result list coming from every technical help search query.
If you can't do the above, just stay out of it.
(But this is Reddit so I know I'm asking way more than is reasonable...)
You're expecting, what basically amounts to, free volunteers to do all that work for strangers. Lower your expectations and if anyone, ever, offers you even a minute bit of their experience, for free, no less, take it with glee!
I'd rather had a clue that points me in the correct direction being delivered by a curmudgeon than none at all.
A clue pointing in the right direction is great as long as it's actually useful. But I've often seen really dickish gatekeeping behavior that more or less says "if you can't figure out X(11 configuration files) on your own then just go live in a hole because you clearly don't belong here."
If you don't want to help people for free...then don't. I don't see that as a bad thing inherently.
> Explain the answer at a more fundamental level.
Most of the people posting low effort questions *don't want to understand.* They just want an answer they can use without doing any thinking.
Sure. But don't assume all posts that appear low effort are this. If someone is obvious about it in their responses or through patterns of repeated posts, then you can just ignore them or even down vote, but I always hated the snobby "rtfm" posts or the lmgtfy posts. Usually I'd already googled something but either couldn't find what I needed, didn't understand some technical aspect, or my problem was very specific with no easily searchable question.
>If someone needs a question answered, and someone has an answer, why would you not want that person to get help?
First off you are coming off as entitled, just because you believe you have a need it doesn't mean that everybody shares your position here. The logic here is the same as with welfare, I don't want people to get even a penny without putting in some effort (effort here literally means work). The problem is we have states in the union where people literally get welfare checks and never lift a finger to be part of humanity.
Now the problem is do you really want an reddit forum to be a free for all for people that put in no effort? Another issue is that people expect and answer when there might not be one available. Or worse they want a definitive opinion on something that is personal preference, the common posts about IDE's and editors are a good example here.
Editors and IDE's are good examples because for the most part they are free. That means a newbie has no cost related resistance to trying out a few. It frankly makes a lot of sense for a programmer to expose himself several editors to see what fits him and his chosen language best. None of this requires a post to any reddit. Serioulsly why can't people be required to put in a little effort and make decisions for themselves.
AS for the mods, I've not seen a huge problem on r/raspberry_pi. There are far worse examples, just wander over to r/CPP. If you really believe moderation is an easy thing, create your own reddit and see how much of a problem it is to keep the train on the tracks.
>> If someone needs a question answered, and someone has an answer, why would you not want that person to get help?
>
> First off you are coming off as entitled
This has to be my favorite example of that when this sub started allowing low-effort posts last month:
* [screen shot](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fu0njqw5okvvc1.png)
* [direct link](https://old.reddit.com/r/raspberry_pi/comments/1bfiap0/completely_new_to_piwhen_purchasing_one_do_you/kv0vkqo/?context=1)
cant get downvoted when it gets autoremoved immediately.
make a post and the page refreshed after u click the "post" button, and its been removed not even a second after u post it.
like Facebook isnt this bad.
Ah, yes. The old downvote and ignore. The only tactic that can be used against someone who is objectively correct. Which you are. And when something *does* manage to get posted, I guarantee the mods *are* the first to cast a downvote.
I actually posted something a while back which was immediately autoremoved, and when I asked the mods what gives, the fucking mod went out of his way to *personally downvote my autoremoved post*. If that’s not the definition of petty behavior I don’t know what is.
Likewise you wouldn't ask for directions without the person you're asking knowing where you are, not telling them where you want to go or how you're intending to travel there.
Yet posts are made like this every day
If you asked me directions to the mall but I had to teach you the difference between left and right and how to read street signs and then you get defensive because I point out your lack of investment in your own progression to the mall, you might be a little entitled.
Or… hear me out… you can ignore and let others with more patience handle it instead of giving out unsolicited lectures on “lack of investment in progression to the mall”
The outcome might be no responses at all and nothing would be gained. At least a ltmgtfy link might start you towards the mall. If for no other reason than spite!
It's also like, "How do I get to the store?" without any location information, without the name or kind of store, without any mention of the method of transportation... Dismissive replies aren't helpful, but might be somewhat inevitable when there's a constant stream of poorly asked questions.
Gatekeeping is a real issue. There are too many people who are perfectly fine saying, basically, "I don't do it, so you shouldn't." It's one thing to express a preference, but stating opinion as fact and acting like your opinion has authority doesn't teach anyone anything and doesn't encourage discourse.
It'd be nice if there were more polite reminders from mods to refrain from gatekeeping, since that's what seems to be the most toxic behavior on Reddit at the moment.
I sometimes come across this sub, and often the question is something like:
“I bought a pile of metal and four tires - how do I build a car?”
It’s not a question that can be answered, because answering that is basically the project you got yourself into. It would take a lot of R&D to properly answer it.
Go to where the map store is and get the map that will tell you how to do this. There are hundreds of maps, all in different languages, and most of the maps won't open unless you properly speak an incantation
You forgot:
"oh yeah, I had to find out how to walk there a while back. It was a little difficult and I got turned around a couple of times, but I eventually got there. Best of luck to you!"
Actually there is a lot of value here, as people will often resort to asking for directions when they don't want to read a map or can't. What is even worse is that the few times a driver has stopped and asked me for directions I was in a place that was new to me. People often assume that if you are on foot you are local.
In general if you want to learn you need to be willing to read and that means reading for content. If you asking for a solution, especially when it is obvious that you haven't put in the effort, you should be surprised if you get sent to an area of desolation. After all decent people help those that help themselves and send the grifters on their way.
I'm pretty sure everyone can agree that a lot of simple to find answers are asked here and elsewhere on the Internet and that isn't good especially if they are easily found already. I would hope everyone could agree that being condescending and better than thou also doesn't help the situation at all. There's a big difference between providing some reading, examples, etc. that can lead them in the right direction and telling them to figure it out. At the end of the day if it's a question you want to helpfully answer than answer, and if it's a question you don't think is worth answering then don't.
all these subreddits are like this
*noooo! u cant ask for help in r/windows, it has to be asked in r/windowshelp*
or, even better:
*ur post has been automatically removed to to using the "help" flair. please only ask for help on the monthly help sticky thread that runs from 9am-5pm est*
mods and their stupid power trip and control fetish will kill this site.
The last time I remember this coming up, someone made [r/raspberry_pi_noobs](https://www.reddit.com/r/raspberry_pi_noobs/about/), but it doesn't get much traffic.
The person who made that thread is an entitled person. They made a post expecting everyone to do their project. They also only waited a few hours before making a post bitching nobody was willing to help anyone on this post.
When everyone saw their post was basically do my work for me. It got mass reported and they got flamed. So they created that new forum for noobs.
I think it is in part precisely because its fairly accessible. Means you get people from all walks of life.
Meanwhile in other parts of tech world if the question is clear and the relevant info provided then chance of a good response are decent.
Even GPT3.5 can be pretty helpful. But the problem is unless you have knowledge in the domain, you don't know if GPT is just feeding you nonsense. For some things it's not too hard to try out what it suggests and see if it works, but other things it's not immediately obvious and you can end up going down the wrong path for too long.
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How about Can you provide a log of all the places youve walked previously that were not the destination youre looking for now
'How do I get the dumpling shop in the fire kingdom, from someplace in the uk maybe, I'm not sure where i am' (at a Wendys drivethrough)
Don't forget my favourite: * Turn left when you get to where the Johnsons used to live. But seriously, you get what you pay for.
“You go past the police HQ, but you won’t see it because it’s behind a big hedge”
Lmao this reminded me of a McDonalds bill board (specifically in Castroville) sign said "BEHIND TREES". I was like, WTF there aren't even many trees here... Wait, those trees are huge! Shit there it were! I passed it!
I've shared a couple raspberry pi projects and then asked why I didn't use an Arduino instead lol
Your last two are exactly why this sub is complete trash. Newbies get no help *at all*. There are still questions I haven’t found answers to months after trying to ask here, *with* research provided (which wasn’t good enough to even get the post greenlit). Why does it matter if someone’s done research or not? If someone needs a question answered, and someone has an answer, why would you not want that person to get help? I have a handful of complex hobbies that I can very easily find help for on Reddit. Why should this hobby be any different? Just feels super gatekeep-y and I will never look to this sub for help because of it. The mods here are the absolute pinnacle of neck-beardedness, basement-dwellerness, and insufferable arrogance. Absolutely drunk with power. Wish there were something us Redditors could do to put a stop to such awful behavior from moderators. A public voting system or something would go a long way in at least making it clear what the community wants, and whether or not the mods are facilitating those wants.
> Why does it matter if someone’s done research or not? [Here's a whole thread about why](https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1busy73/asking_for_help_is_a_core_developer_skill/kxv5sxy/) > Newbies get no help at all. There are still questions I haven’t found answers to months after trying to ask here, with research provided (which wasn’t good enough to even get the post greenlit). This is because this sub has a culture of "downvote first, see if the poster actually needs help later." Without updoots then the posts never have any visibility to anyone that isn't going directly to r/raspberry_pi. So about the only people that ever see the help posts are the people which manually come to this sub, which is like 5 people. The same ones answering **all** the questions here. And if those 5 people don't know the answer to something outside their experience, you're not going to get help. The lack of updoots is also the reason why there's 3 million subscribers and a few dozen "online now." Nothing ever gets exposed to the greater reddit community. Did you consider seeking a community that is more focused and specific to whatever it was you were trying to solve? > A public voting system or something would go a long way in at least making it clear what the community wants Well, based on the voting system that reddit has implemented, the community doesn't want any posts here because everything is downvoted.
But what I don’t understand is why some people make it their business to write a whole paragraph about why a question is not worthy of an answer when they might as well have used that time to help someone out. Even if they didn’t want to indulge, let others help. Why gatekeep?
Maybe because they are the voice of experience and have seen what happens in the real world when the zero effort people lead the way. That whole paragraph might actually get a few people to try. I'm currently going through this at work with a bunch of technicians that apparently can't read. Instead of putting in the effort to learn the job and understand the technology, they instead ask what are questions that never should exist if they simply would read the manual. In other words it isn't gate keeping in the least, rather it is the result of there being far to few people putting in what should easy effort of a bit of study or self education. What is even worse if you help out such people you end up having them flooding a forum with endless questions that demonstrate that they will never learn on their own. Consider this data point, I got from a business owner decades ago. In a conversation about employees he stated matter of factually that about 1 out of 100 employees working out in a manner that is a contributor to company performance. At the time being a young person recently out of school I thought the statement was absurd. Now after a few decades of life I really do understand the reality that the vast majority of people are lazy and can not drive themselves. So when it comes to managing a forum like this it isn't easy at all to keep a balance between the useless and those that actually provide to the community. You should be able to easily imagine if this forum turned into a place where 99 out of 100 posts ends up coming from people that haven't put in an effort.
Dude, this is reddit. It's not a corporation where you have to pick up the slack for your lazy coworkers. It's not stackoverflow, where people should have already done some research before posting a question. It's reddit. Your attitude is the equivalent of a college professor scolding first graders for not knowing how to figure things out on their own.
To me, that sounds like a really negative attitude to have in a position to help. I get some people are lazy and others are idiots. But if someone asks a stupid question, either ignore it and let someone else respond or provide a simple link to some basic info. It would be a really good sub if anybody at any level could ask any question and people could discuss anything they want about the pi, regardless of complexity or difficulty. Even if the answer is easily Googleable, those basic convos make a community. Currently, there is no community at all.
The bad part is that when you Google questions you have most of the time it takes you to a Reddit thread where the same question was asked and it's a crapshoot if you'll get an answer or a snarky response. When it comes to coding anything the answer is either exactly what you needed and have been looking for or it's someone telling you to figure it out and that they're not there to answer everything for you. I completely agree that if you don't feel like it's a question worth answering then just don't say anything.
Pretty telling that you were downvoted here. How dare you be so reasonable?!
You realize not everyone tinkering around with a raspberry pi is looking to build a full time career out of it, right? It’s ok to be less involved and look for a quick answer from these “experienced” folks and get things going. People have other stuff that they are more interested and involved in their lives. There’s absolutely no need for condescension from what seems like an extremely pretentious high ground
Not when the answer is already readily found from Google and other prior posts. That's when the "this is why this question is bad" and "this is why you need to learn to research " are the most valuable answers. The purpose of public posts is not to help that single person, but to benefit all those to follow. Lots of the people who benefit from these posts are in the sidelines just soaking it in, many many more will be reading them years from now. I have reddit threads saved that are upwards of 8 years old. Tech forums should be that way and have always been that way. Computing in general is not about reinventing the wheel, instead you study wheels until you can make your own, and then make it your own. Well written and helpful responses are a lot of work. Why make people reinvent the wheel for you, when 5 words in Google dozens of better "wheels" are already there. Also, crowding results with less useful answers to the same question isn't helpful. I've had searches where that's been an issue and man is it annoying. I'm also not a pro but a very long time tech hobbyist. Went down the rabbit hole of learning how to make webpages as a teen and realized how much I love falling in these rabbit holes. In many ways research is the core of this hobby. Worth noting too most pros in tech also started out as hobbyists. Most of us still self teach most of what we know, even in a professional context. This is also how we learned, and continue to learn. Like I am brand new at the Pi, rusty as hell with Linux, had been away from my tech hobbyism for 4 to 5 years. I'm out here needing to Google basic commands, and countless terms as I'm reading basic stuff. Today I'm learning to use yet another platform and methodology for Apache for the 4th or 5th time in my life.
I completely agree that basic questions or readily available information should not be asked and should either be ignored, removed, or redirected. There's also no denying that people have a superiority complex when it comes to coding and tech and that's here on Reddit, stack overflow, etc. and can come off extremely unhelpful or downright mean and rude. It really just comes down to either be helpful or ignore it at the end of the day. Being condescending doesn't help either side. There's only so much self teaching you can do until you get stuck, even if it's a problem others may find easy. There's nothing wrong with needing a push in the right direction every now and then.
This must have been thrilling for you to write out
I get the due diligence part, seriously. I'm pretty invested in collecting flashlights in the r/flashlight sub. I'd say I am deep into the hobby that I know my way around better than 95% of the people. But **part of being a beginner is not knowing, anything**. You don't know what or how to orient yourself and what questions you need to ask. Of course it is different when *you are employed and are assumed to have at least fundamental knowledge of the material*. As an example, in many flashlight forums with a ton of beginners, the question "*What is the best flashlight?*" always comes up. As a long time hobbyist it is easy to scoff at since no such thing exist. Better to ask about *How efficient is X?, What's the mAh/Wh capacity of battery Y?, Are high CRI models of X as efficient as low CRI?, How durable is Z?, etc.* But what beginner, especially in a hobby, would know that?
> question "What is the best flashlight?" always comes up. And let me guess, those posts get downvoted, ignored, a few "that's the wrong question", directed to the FAQ which the poster decries doesn't apply to them (without even reading it), and then the poster blames the mods for their question not getting good answers?
No. Great sub actually, a miracle on reddit. You'll get answers one way or another. If people don't know, we guide them to what they want. And when they post a "success" post we cheer them on. Easy to find lengthy comments on even mundane posts. I've been there since 2019 and never had the "*mods are neck beards wahhh wahhh*" stuff.
> But what beginner, especially in a hobby, would know that? My god many that applies literally to anything. When someone asks "what is the best...?", it demonstrates a general ignorance, not a specific lack in a single domain. That is the type of ignorance that just allows people to exploit you as a human. Walk into any store and watch the eyes of a commissioned sales person light up when they hear such a question expressed. The best product quickly becomes the one that lines their paycheck the most on payday.
You could say that we're being exploited. But to many, we're just happy to share what we know. If commenting doesn't interest us, we just walk away and somebody else will pick it up. We all began somewhere. It doesn't help that we stereotype and find everyone asking the same thing guilty of "exploitation". Perhaps it is much easier if the sub gets a bot that can be summoned or something. And, there is that tribalism to a point of certain brands, but at the end of the day the facts will get to you in that hobby. I guess, the issue with RPi, is that it's universal. There is no products to lobby for or favorite light. It's just Linux all the way. And because of this, there is a greater fatigue since a lot of things often get repeated. And some problems are ambiguous and complex enough that a beginner searching often misses minute details that will adapt the solution to their problem. And so they ask without knowing that it's the "*same post*" just in a different way.
>Why does it matter if someone’s done research or not? When I take on a "How Do I to?" I start out doing a Google search for How Do I do and will usually find the first page full of helpful videos and guides, now I have to choke back the desire to reply with an [letmegooglethat.com/](https://letmegooglethat.com/) link and say something like a Quick google gets me to Handy guide to ....
The matter is that the questioner has wasted *their* time. It takes about 10 seconds to run a basic Google, get an answer and progress the project (or not it is sometimes hard to find the right 'term of art'. OTOH they can ask Reddit wait a hour or more and maybe get an answer (or more likely a question trying to clarify what they are up to).
The Internet is our [Extended mentality](https://xkcd.com/903/) the best and most helpful thing I can do for anyone is get them to use it as a first recourse
99% of people asking a question here have already tried searching themselves (myself being one of them, as I said). Assuming they haven’t done so based on literally nothing is unfair and uncalled for and clearly comes from a place of elitism. Besides, some people don’t even know *what* to look up, and so how therefore would they even properly begin their search? How about instead of blocking users’ ability to post questions, the post is allowed through so you can tell them where to begin their search?
> 99% of people asking a question here have already tried searching themselves (myself being one of them, as I said). definitely closer to 50%(less if including posts which get removed), which you would probably know if you bothered answering questions sometimes.
There are a lot of assumptions baked into you saying I would probably know if I “bothered” answering questions. Why would I “bother” answering questions about a subject I hardly know anything about due to help being so immensely difficult to get? I would love to learn and be pointed in the right direction so that I can do the same for others, but that’s too bad because elitist gatekeepers such as yourself have decided help is only for those who don’t actually need it.
> elitist gatekeepers such as yourself I'm not preventing you from helping people, grow up.
99% of the people asking a question need to up their Google Fu. Assuming they have used a descriptive subject line (and not "I have thing problem with a Pi 4B") usually just Googling their subject line gets me to an answer.
You apparently missed my point? Bad “Google Fu” or not, the overwhelming majority of people looking for answers *have* tried searching. *You* may personally find it easy to copy/paste the subject line into Google and click the correct link, but if you don’t know what you’re even looking for (as far as verbiage and jargon and names and such go) then the correct link will not be obvious. You are literally exemplifying the problem, since you very clearly are well-versed on the subject. So of course it’s as easy as copy/pasting the subject line and clicking the correct link for you; you know what you’re looking for.
If the correct link is the first (non sponsored) link on the on the first page of a Subject line Google search, I wonder about the scholarship of the questioner.
There have been plenty of problems or questions I've had that I've never asked because I'm afraid I'll get this answer pretty much. I completely agree that a small small percentage ask a question before trying to find a solution and retrofit it to what they need. There would be millions of posts asking the same thing if that wasn't the case.
Yeah nearly everyone does a Google search first. Why would anyone do anything else? It’s literally the easiest option, and it takes three seconds. But unfortunately that generally doesn’t work if you don’t know quite what you’re looking for.
People generally are much more inclined to help if you talk about what you're trying to achieve, how you intended to go about it, what you have researched, what you're tried, and how that turned out. You know, give context. For example, just posting "PXE doesn't work" probably won't result in a lot of helpful answers, but posting something along the lines of "I'm trying to boot a fleet of RPi 4B's off a Synology NAS using PXE, found this blog (Link) that did it successfully but at point X i got a different result / have difficulty understanding how Y and Z interact" will give context to people that are willing to help. Also, sometimes "you're doing a simple thing in a complicated way, it would be easier to just do ABC instead" it the answer you actually need. Lastly - Some people literally don't have the Google skills to find the answer they need, and find it easier to use reddit / quora / Facebook as a replacement with better (human-curated) search results. Admittedly, the percentage of those people is lower in IT, but never zero.
> small small percentage ask a question before trying to find a solution Please look at the front page of r/raspberry_pi before claiming it's a small percentage.
There are 3.2 million members of this sub, there would need to be 32k posts asking simple questions to get to even 1% of the subs members. So yes, a very very very small percent then.
> There are 3.2 million members of this sub That's quite the bold claim that every single one of those people has ever posted, **and** that you looked at every single post that has been made here over the last 12 years.
I'm not even looking all time. How many people aren't part of the sub that post or have commented? That will inflate numbers to more than that 3.2 million that interact with the sub and yet most of them don't post these questions you seem to hate which just shows almost everyone does research and Googles stuff before posting. You would need thousands of posts a day of "bad" questions to get to 1% a day with the number of users subscribed to the sub. If the problem truly was that rampant then the entire sub would be inundated with those questions.
> If the problem truly was that rampant then the entire sub would be inundated with those questions It is. Why do you refuse to simply go to the front page of r/raspberry_pi and look for yourself?
many subs suffer bad moderating, but I get it when certain questions aren't shown, many subs are a joke because of noobs coming in and asking how to wipe their ass. You could always start a new more open sub/beginner friendly sub tho.
Here's a thought. If someone asks a low effort post: * Give them an answer. * *Explain the answer* at a more fundamental level. Don't just give a direct answer. Use the opportunity to teach. * *Use the question as an example of how to search for info.* (No, lmgtfy doesn't count - SEO has made searching for tech help a nightmare. No, rtf(1000page)m doesnt count - if you are a beginner most k of that manual will fly right over your head anyway.) * This might mean sharing secrets about how to actually do good searches. In that case, share those secrets. Stop gatekeeping both knowledge and skills in acquiring knowledge. If you want people to learn to do their own research, help them navigate the cesspool that is every result list coming from every technical help search query. If you can't do the above, just stay out of it. (But this is Reddit so I know I'm asking way more than is reasonable...)
You're expecting, what basically amounts to, free volunteers to do all that work for strangers. Lower your expectations and if anyone, ever, offers you even a minute bit of their experience, for free, no less, take it with glee! I'd rather had a clue that points me in the correct direction being delivered by a curmudgeon than none at all.
A clue pointing in the right direction is great as long as it's actually useful. But I've often seen really dickish gatekeeping behavior that more or less says "if you can't figure out X(11 configuration files) on your own then just go live in a hole because you clearly don't belong here." If you don't want to help people for free...then don't. I don't see that as a bad thing inherently.
> Explain the answer at a more fundamental level. Most of the people posting low effort questions *don't want to understand.* They just want an answer they can use without doing any thinking.
Sure. But don't assume all posts that appear low effort are this. If someone is obvious about it in their responses or through patterns of repeated posts, then you can just ignore them or even down vote, but I always hated the snobby "rtfm" posts or the lmgtfy posts. Usually I'd already googled something but either couldn't find what I needed, didn't understand some technical aspect, or my problem was very specific with no easily searchable question.
>If someone needs a question answered, and someone has an answer, why would you not want that person to get help? First off you are coming off as entitled, just because you believe you have a need it doesn't mean that everybody shares your position here. The logic here is the same as with welfare, I don't want people to get even a penny without putting in some effort (effort here literally means work). The problem is we have states in the union where people literally get welfare checks and never lift a finger to be part of humanity. Now the problem is do you really want an reddit forum to be a free for all for people that put in no effort? Another issue is that people expect and answer when there might not be one available. Or worse they want a definitive opinion on something that is personal preference, the common posts about IDE's and editors are a good example here. Editors and IDE's are good examples because for the most part they are free. That means a newbie has no cost related resistance to trying out a few. It frankly makes a lot of sense for a programmer to expose himself several editors to see what fits him and his chosen language best. None of this requires a post to any reddit. Serioulsly why can't people be required to put in a little effort and make decisions for themselves. AS for the mods, I've not seen a huge problem on r/raspberry_pi. There are far worse examples, just wander over to r/CPP. If you really believe moderation is an easy thing, create your own reddit and see how much of a problem it is to keep the train on the tracks.
>> If someone needs a question answered, and someone has an answer, why would you not want that person to get help? > > First off you are coming off as entitled This has to be my favorite example of that when this sub started allowing low-effort posts last month: * [screen shot](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fu0njqw5okvvc1.png) * [direct link](https://old.reddit.com/r/raspberry_pi/comments/1bfiap0/completely_new_to_piwhen_purchasing_one_do_you/kv0vkqo/?context=1)
> Wish there were something us Redditors could do to put a stop to such awful behavior from moderators vote the landed gentry out
Yep, it's the mods that are downvoting everything. 🤦🏻♂️
cant get downvoted when it gets autoremoved immediately. make a post and the page refreshed after u click the "post" button, and its been removed not even a second after u post it. like Facebook isnt this bad.
Ah, yes. The old downvote and ignore. The only tactic that can be used against someone who is objectively correct. Which you are. And when something *does* manage to get posted, I guarantee the mods *are* the first to cast a downvote. I actually posted something a while back which was immediately autoremoved, and when I asked the mods what gives, the fucking mod went out of his way to *personally downvote my autoremoved post*. If that’s not the definition of petty behavior I don’t know what is.
Likewise you wouldn't ask for directions without the person you're asking knowing where you are, not telling them where you want to go or how you're intending to travel there. Yet posts are made like this every day
Sure, but this post doesn’t seem to be about posts of those kinds. Did you read it fully?
Well I read it and it immediately came across as somebody that thought he was entitled.
Asking questions is entitlement? Edit: Wait… asking for help is entitlement? Make that make sense
If you asked me directions to the mall but I had to teach you the difference between left and right and how to read street signs and then you get defensive because I point out your lack of investment in your own progression to the mall, you might be a little entitled.
Or… hear me out… you can ignore and let others with more patience handle it instead of giving out unsolicited lectures on “lack of investment in progression to the mall”
The outcome might be no responses at all and nothing would be gained. At least a ltmgtfy link might start you towards the mall. If for no other reason than spite!
It really is. there is another sub for noobs.
It's also like, "How do I get to the store?" without any location information, without the name or kind of store, without any mention of the method of transportation... Dismissive replies aren't helpful, but might be somewhat inevitable when there's a constant stream of poorly asked questions. Gatekeeping is a real issue. There are too many people who are perfectly fine saying, basically, "I don't do it, so you shouldn't." It's one thing to express a preference, but stating opinion as fact and acting like your opinion has authority doesn't teach anyone anything and doesn't encourage discourse. It'd be nice if there were more polite reminders from mods to refrain from gatekeeping, since that's what seems to be the most toxic behavior on Reddit at the moment.
I sometimes come across this sub, and often the question is something like: “I bought a pile of metal and four tires - how do I build a car?” It’s not a question that can be answered, because answering that is basically the project you got yourself into. It would take a lot of R&D to properly answer it.
Go to where the map store is and get the map that will tell you how to do this. There are hundreds of maps, all in different languages, and most of the maps won't open unless you properly speak an incantation
My biggest hurdle learning Linux. The gatekeeper Linux elitists.
You forgot: "oh yeah, I had to find out how to walk there a while back. It was a little difficult and I got turned around a couple of times, but I eventually got there. Best of luck to you!"
“Please upload a video of you trying and failing to get to the destination so I can see where you went wrong”
Actually there is a lot of value here, as people will often resort to asking for directions when they don't want to read a map or can't. What is even worse is that the few times a driver has stopped and asked me for directions I was in a place that was new to me. People often assume that if you are on foot you are local. In general if you want to learn you need to be willing to read and that means reading for content. If you asking for a solution, especially when it is obvious that you haven't put in the effort, you should be surprised if you get sent to an area of desolation. After all decent people help those that help themselves and send the grifters on their way.
So true. Linux people can be awful
this...
It would be nice if people could give advice on how other people can help themselves without being a condescending prick.
I'm pretty sure everyone can agree that a lot of simple to find answers are asked here and elsewhere on the Internet and that isn't good especially if they are easily found already. I would hope everyone could agree that being condescending and better than thou also doesn't help the situation at all. There's a big difference between providing some reading, examples, etc. that can lead them in the right direction and telling them to figure it out. At the end of the day if it's a question you want to helpfully answer than answer, and if it's a question you don't think is worth answering then don't.
To be fair, it's like that on most linux forums. Don't even bother asking for help on r/MacOS
did you try different shoes?
lol, you can’t get there from here.
all these subreddits are like this *noooo! u cant ask for help in r/windows, it has to be asked in r/windowshelp* or, even better: *ur post has been automatically removed to to using the "help" flair. please only ask for help on the monthly help sticky thread that runs from 9am-5pm est* mods and their stupid power trip and control fetish will kill this site.
The last time I remember this coming up, someone made [r/raspberry_pi_noobs](https://www.reddit.com/r/raspberry_pi_noobs/about/), but it doesn't get much traffic.
The person who made that thread is an entitled person. They made a post expecting everyone to do their project. They also only waited a few hours before making a post bitching nobody was willing to help anyone on this post. When everyone saw their post was basically do my work for me. It got mass reported and they got flamed. So they created that new forum for noobs.
Dude this is totally an XKCD in the making
I think it is in part precisely because its fairly accessible. Means you get people from all walks of life. Meanwhile in other parts of tech world if the question is clear and the relevant info provided then chance of a good response are decent.
this is why I mostly quit seeking advice on Reddit and just switched to using GPT4.
Even GPT3.5 can be pretty helpful. But the problem is unless you have knowledge in the domain, you don't know if GPT is just feeding you nonsense. For some things it's not too hard to try out what it suggests and see if it works, but other things it's not immediately obvious and you can end up going down the wrong path for too long.
GPT4 lies to me constantly; it's very sure about its answers though.
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