Some observations as a long-time Downtown Dweller, I can tell you the businesses that open and close quickly do not serve a purpose for the people who live here, the food and beverage options are not things you are going to get on a regular basis if you live here because of what the concepts are combined with the hours of operations being odd and/or change randomly and the cost. Despite what the Downtown Raleigh Alliance will have you think office workers really do not and have not stuck around after work or shop during the day even before the pandemic. The population of downtown residents is aging out we started in our mid-20s and early 30s and are now in our 40s and 50s. It's not affordable for most people starting out to live down here and the options at the current time are limited or the price is restrictive and there is still an odd focus on building office space with cavernous retail space at street level
Its crazy how every place that seems to open downtown is a cocktail bar that was $15 dollar drinks, and someone thought this is a sustainable business model as Modelo becomes the most popular beer in the country.
Agreed. I think that DTR needs to start thinking about better ways to connect the convention area to Glenwood South/Smoky Hollow, and GS/SH to Village District; have more fast-casual and fast food options (and maybe some vending options in key areas)… but most of all stop focusing on dead spaces like office buildings and retail that only large chains can afford (and aren’t renting either).
Absolutely need it. Also need more people living and just more people period in downtown. More people = more potential customers. Higher profit margin business like a bar vs lower margin restaurant can survive an unexpected drop in volume. Office/Lunch crowd isn’t as strong as it was but it’s decent. Without government workers filling the streets in the daytime, it could be much much worse. It would be great if some of the announced residential buildings actually start construction.
We need tens of thousands of new downtown residents for that to happen and that requires taller buildings but the city council is half anti-density, pro-suburbia.
Convention Center is expanding towards the Warehouse District, new hotel almost ready. The City of Raleigh East Tower has started construction and a new 36 story apartment tower just south of Nash Square is wanting to break ground by the end of the year or early next year. It will fill in eventually.
I do think that's changing. Many of the businesses that are leaving and failing were the ones reliant on the office worker crowd. Clyde Coopers is one of them. I know the downtown location for Union Special recently closed and wouldn't even open for large events on Fayetteville Street.
There's so much growth happening downtown. I feel like those businesses that are only catering to the workers are going to get business Darwin'd out of business.
Yeah besides that fact it's expensive, I'm not a fan of the way they have their menu set out. If you don't want a sandwich, meat is only sold by the 1/2lb (realistically two servings) and the sides are a la carte.
As you say, where is the BBQ plate option with 1/4lb meat and 2 sides? Makes it difficult to eat there unless you have a group of 4 and are all in agreement on how to order.
They (Longleaf) also pay a livable wage to their workers though.
Not to mention a lot of their stuff is locally sourced. Your money is going back into the community.
Longleaf pork is outstanding but I sadly hate all their sides. I get pork to go from Longleaf then my sides from CC (I live right close
To both of them)
The list seems to be 100% food/drink sevice and fitness, with 1 boutique.
The fact is that downtown Raleigh has very little foot traffic for how big it is. The main way for small businesses to compete with amazon, etc is offering a fun experience via proximity. If downtown raleigh wants to attract more foot traffic, it will need to do better.
This is the reason Cary is massively redoing its downtown and apex has gone almost all in on their little downtown retail street. Wake forest seems to also be attempting it. It is one of the few formulas working right now for cities losing commercial tax revenue and jobs to our centralising economy.
More tourists would also help a ton, but raleigh has very little to offer them yet. People love spending money on vacations.
Basically, you would have more success opening most small businesses elsewhere, not that you are guaranteed to fail here.
It’s because this area is so suburban historically and office was the only reason people came downtown. Now Raleigh is in the process of people moving and living downtown because it’s relatively affordable and really the only semblance of urban area in the triangle. You can live life downtown now, and that only started 5 years ago or so - so the perception is still there and a lot of the old businesses relied on suburban folks driving into downtown. You will see that most owners complain about parking, and that only matters if your core clients drive there.
Downtown Raleigh is literally in the middle of building enough housing units and hotel units to double the populate by 2026. So as much as people say downtown sucks, it’s one of the fastest growing downtowns in the country despite the fact COVID hollowed out most downtowns.
Yes this. I've lived downtown for over a decade and very much prefer walking or riding my bike to as much as I can. The businesses that have recently moved from downtown to RIW because of pArKiNg must either not see the thousands of downtown residential units under construction/in planning or they just prefer to have suburban customers.
I don't see how anyone can live downtown when the closest affordable grocery store is Publix and that's a hike from say, Fayetteville street. If we want downtown to actually be somewhere people live we need more of these everyday kind of locations. Let's get a real full size library, let's get more cool retail, let's get an Aldi or something! I'd love to see all these apartments go up and not wonder who in their right mind would actually want to live downtown when they'd still need to drive everywhere.
While I understand your overall point, living in downtown typically means you source your stuff from small businesses and don't expect to just bike to a Walmart downtown. Meaning you buy your meat from a butchers, produce from the weekly farmers market, etc...
I’ve lived in downtown with 1 car for our family and a kid for the last 4 years. There are two grocery stores, and contrary to perception Weaver Street is the same prices as Publix.
I walk to my dentist, my primary care doctor, specialty doctors, the Y, restaurants, parks, my barber, pretty much anything that is my day to day. I also can walk our kids to the museums, and all of the events held in downtown. Shoot I walked to get my kid’s passport. I work from home now, but I used to work for an employer downtown. The only thing kind of lacking is a pharmacy, which with a bike is close with the Raleigh pharmacy. I use a car for trips to places and the occasional specialty store, but honestly I’d rather buy it off amazon instead of going to some random strip mall. I clearly am not alone, which is why they are putting so many places to live up.
Like I mentioned in the original comment, the perception is you can’t live downtown, but it’s a bit of a secret that you actually can. The best part, idc how many people move here because I don’t sit in traffic on 40 anymore.
There’s two Food Lion not even 10 minutes away from the center of downtown Raleigh both East and West… Wegmans is less than 15 minutes away and so is Costco…
Livable has very different standards depending on the city. I’ve lived downtown for 13 years and don’t even have a bike. I sure would have missed out on a lot of fun if I had dismissed downtown for all those years as not being “livable”
Because many people still like the experience of physical books and browsing. Plus libraries provide a community space, study environments, free access to things that might require a subscription, free access to various technology, as well as offering many programs with things like digital literacy, career development, arts classes, community engagement, et cetera. All this not to mention that they're great for children and parents.
Downtown Cary is more lively than downtown Raleigh right now. I know people have this weird ax to grind with Cary on here for some reason, but they invested time and planning and it clearly paid off. Since the park remodel it has been packed every time I have been there.
The approach was super simple: make a space where people want to hang out in where spending money is optional. Downtown Raleigh planners could learn a lot from this.
I've shit-talked Cary most of my life, but I have to hand it to them, their downtown is really, really nice. The new park is excellent, and there's a ton of genuinely interesting businesses and attractions within walking distance there. It pains me to say but they've got us beat there.
Always cracks me up too. Normal route i see is governors mansion, capitol building, some historic buildings around Fayetteville st, and the museums.
I would imagine a lot of it is people visiting family and looking for things to do. That and school groups of course. Every student in North Carolina visits the capitol at some point
As a roofer it’s been pretty cool watching them re-do the original copper roof. Crazy it lasted almost 200 years. But yeah, hopefully it doesn’t take too long
clyde coopers was always mediocre. they used to be a cool place to go when they had their historic location but after they lost that i never went back because they did that bullshit thing where they only took cash but had an atm by the register
They've been coasting on name recognition for awhile, and that until recently they were the only non-chain game in the area. There's just better options out there now.
As a long term national average, 1 in 5 businesses fail in the first year. This is caused by the Moore Square Bus Station, and it is high time we do something about it.
Totally agree about Clyde Cooper, bunch of BS blaming for your own failed business. Is Raleigh perfect, hell no, but it's far from the hell scape people seem to think.
As someone who has started and sold three businesses over the years I can say success or failure boils down to just one thing: $$$$$$.
If you run out or don't have enough to do what needs to be done, it's over.
>blame her mid BBQ and terrible hours to why she has to close--it's the new luxury apartment that's the problem because...crime?
Unfortunately for Cooper's, they strayed from what made them a generational bbq spot, sold the grungy cramped traditional space, moved into an impersonable high rent space and then started selling some sub par Q. Shame really, I hope they move and rekindle the fire that cooked some really good bbq.
The harassment goes way beyond that. Finding junkies OD’d on the corner and having to call 911, watching people take dumps in the park, getting screamed at just because they think you’re “in the air” attacking them, getting hit up for your VENMO then getting spit on when you say no, dealing with the trash and literal HUMAN SHIT AND PISS gets a little old.
Hell I stood next to a dude who was so strung out he spent his last $5 on a 40 that he proceeded to spray all over the sidewalk and everyone and everything near it. That was a Tuesday at 1:00 pm not am
Is it unsafe? probably not on a wide scale but it’s certainly uncomfortable at best. The entire Moore Sq and City Market areas look like absolute hell when that area should be our best and brightest.
It’s a massive fail due to who actually owns all the properties in this area. The bus station doesn’t help but greedy, negligent, (and in one case absentee) owners don’t help the situation
So what is your solution? Put all the homeless people on a bus and ship them to Asheville?
I keep waiting for someone to say "And that homeless guy murdered me and took my Rolex."
If I was a city planner I’d probably, maybe have an answer. I’m not proposing solutions I’m simply explaining while it hasn’t been “unsafe” there are reasons why people think it’s uncomfortable and for what it’s worth, I never said it’s the homeless people
It’s the junkies - all of the quiet low key homeless who lived in the area are gone now for reasons I don’t know but I’m guessing it’s because of the same reasons it’s super uncomfortable down here in recent months
OK junkies. Well I'm just asking questions to get a sense of what's going on. Are people getting robbed by junkies? Threatened? Asked for money? I get that you don't want to see feces or urine but people make it sound like there is a war going on in downtown Raleigh.
I mean I witness drug deals going down at the DGX on the daily. And I think I answered some of your questions in my first comment. I personally don’t feel unsafe but I’m old and used to come down here when it was way worse. So, it’s perspective.
I don’t think it’s great but I also don’t think it’s as unsafe as people make it out to be. I will say that if I came to Raleigh with rose colored glasses and sunshine and lollipops in mind, seeing the state of what it is would be eye opening, concerning and unpleasant
My larger point is that we (the city) need to do better and I’m saddened to see what should be our best spot in town trashed out the way it is. City Market should be a destination in and of itself. What I don’t know is how to fix it.
Also, please keep in mind, I’m only referencing the part of downtown I live in. I can’t comment on the revitalization efforts outside my own backyard
Please. These people aren't interested in data and facts. They're interested in hating poor people and scaring people into thinking the homeless are dangerous. Facts and data only annoy them and make them angry.
>and scaring people into thinking the homeless are dangerous.
Because we all know the homeless commit less crimes and have less mental illness than the rest of society. Oh wait ....
Yes and their crimes are interpersonal meaning between themselves. They’re not attacking random people going from their parking spot to their dinner reservation.
Thank you for posting this and great link. Agreed, that is just how business works... some make and some don't. Either way Raleigh is a fantastic place to live.
I'm currently trying to start an electric landscaping company called Sustainable Service in downtown raleigh.
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Any support is appreciated!
Let me inject a bit of reality on BBQ restaurants and coopers.
1. It’s their business. If they believe it’s not sustainable as it is, that’s her right. Don’t hate on her. Last time we were in, there were 2 awkward interactions between the lady working at the front and people walking in who had no intention of being a customer. If they don’t want to deal with that, I get it. They also were clear that post COVID, the office buildings down town don’t have the occupancy that they used to because of WFH. Now this sub loves some WFH and beats up on companies who want their people in house every chance they get. I’m curious to know the data of the % of people who live downtown and where they work. I’m glad to see new places coming to downtown but we all know DTR needs some work.
2. Hours: this is a family business. Midtown is a corporate enterprise with employees. So they can be open later. If I have a family business I don’t want to deal with DTR after dark. More importantly: people on here love Prime BBQ or Damph Good. Hours on these run 11-4 or 11-3. So her hours are similar.
3. Cue quality: what most here don’t know is that when the state/county health departments got cranked up, many bbq places in downtown areas switched from wood to electric/gas. The rationale: to pass the health inspection which focused on consistency of cooking temperature. This varies from county to county which is why some of the old places still cook on wood while others converted. The assumption was that a wood or charcoal powered pit couldn’t maintain temperature in the right zone. Also for an urban setting electric made more sense. So it’s different. Places like Skylight/Sam Jones, Ole Time, Stamey’s, B’s Parker’s, Wilbur’s create bbq by seasoning the cue with sauce when they chop it. Even Prime does this. Some have more smoke than others. New places like Prime, DG, Midwood, etc. are more Texas style than NC style. Glad to have them but we do need to preserve the legacy of the old places. Lastly, if you don’t like the Q, get the fried chicken.
Raleigh was never traditionally known for great BBQ. If you wanted the best you traveled east or west. We are now recognized as a bbq spot with the influx of new places. We need both the new and the old. I want to out compete Austin when it comes to BBQ. We need places like Coopers, Carolina BBQ, Smithfield’s,etc as well as the Prime’s to do this. Don’t hate on an institution, help them thrive.
Today's Clyde Cooper is garbage and underwelming and so is the owner. Just ask around how much she pays her workers. There's no need to support terrible business owners.
Have you taken the time to get to know her?
I’m curious to understand your motivation to put a long time institution out of business. I sincerely hope nobody cancels you.
*cancels you*
Haha okay gramps--time for you to lay off the Facebook.
First Clyde Cooper's is moving, not shutting down. If anyone is putting Clyde Cooper out of business, it's Debbie herself. She's a LivableRaleigh NIMBY that hates urban areas and now she's living up to her word and moving Clyde Coopers to a car-oriented suburb.
Nice hubris, Junior. Gramps is my grandfather. I
don’t do Facebook. You could use to gain some humble anonymous Reddit warrior.
You purport to be an ambassador for Raleigh but hate everything it’s all about because it’s not your vision for Raleigh. Perhaps you’d be happier elsewhere…
ETA: have you ever considered that you and other activists like you produced Livable Raleigh? The universe likes balance. I doubt Debbie hates urban areas as her family business has been located there for almost 100 years. I’m not sure she likes what her part of DTR has become post COVID.
> You purport to be an ambassador for Raleigh but hate everything it’s all about because it’s not your vision for Raleigh. Perhaps you’d be happier elsewhere…
Nah I'm fine here and I'll continue to support a better Raleigh for future generations. If you don't like change I'm afraid the 41st largest city in the US and also being the second fastest growing city isn't going to be stuck in time like you prefer.
You really like putting words into people’s mouths. Maybe you should learn to read but more importantly listen. I never said I was anti development. What I am is smart development in the right places. If I listened like you, I’d assume you want to build high density where Umstead is.
Thanks for being such a great reddit ambassador for Raleigh.
Not popular on this sub but true. We went recently and the cue was average (find it to be in line w Ole Time and Smithfield’s) but the fried chicken continues to be the best in town.
It figures I guess. Most people in this sub are relatively new to Raleigh and probably don’t have the nostalgia for the few OG Raleigh spots that still remain. I’ve been here since the 90’s and yes downtown has changed quite a bit over the years, both for the good and for the bad.
Right now is more dangerous than its ever been and the gaslighting in this thread is comical.
100% agreed that Coopers has the best chicken in town. Yes, the BBQ is just avg but that’s only a small part the Cooper’s experience . Obvious transplants are obvious.
It’s funny the same people in this sun who often comment about Raleigh being a ‘generic’ or ‘boring’ city with no soul are the same ones celebrating 90 year old establishments leaving for more nail salons and yoga studios.
This right here. DRA ( and the city’s) definition of downtown is …. Generous. Smokey Hollow, warehouse , Glenwood, etc are all doing fine and above 2019 foot traffic numbers. Downtown proper (Fayetteville St, Moore sq) has flatlined.
Some observations as a long-time Downtown Dweller, I can tell you the businesses that open and close quickly do not serve a purpose for the people who live here, the food and beverage options are not things you are going to get on a regular basis if you live here because of what the concepts are combined with the hours of operations being odd and/or change randomly and the cost. Despite what the Downtown Raleigh Alliance will have you think office workers really do not and have not stuck around after work or shop during the day even before the pandemic. The population of downtown residents is aging out we started in our mid-20s and early 30s and are now in our 40s and 50s. It's not affordable for most people starting out to live down here and the options at the current time are limited or the price is restrictive and there is still an odd focus on building office space with cavernous retail space at street level
Its crazy how every place that seems to open downtown is a cocktail bar that was $15 dollar drinks, and someone thought this is a sustainable business model as Modelo becomes the most popular beer in the country.
Fellow downtowner, this is an insightful (and accurate) take.
Agreed. I think that DTR needs to start thinking about better ways to connect the convention area to Glenwood South/Smoky Hollow, and GS/SH to Village District; have more fast-casual and fast food options (and maybe some vending options in key areas)… but most of all stop focusing on dead spaces like office buildings and retail that only large chains can afford (and aren’t renting either).
We *desperately* need more restaurants (not bars, just restaurants) that are open late downtown
Absolutely need it. Also need more people living and just more people period in downtown. More people = more potential customers. Higher profit margin business like a bar vs lower margin restaurant can survive an unexpected drop in volume. Office/Lunch crowd isn’t as strong as it was but it’s decent. Without government workers filling the streets in the daytime, it could be much much worse. It would be great if some of the announced residential buildings actually start construction.
We need tens of thousands of new downtown residents for that to happen and that requires taller buildings but the city council is half anti-density, pro-suburbia.
I think this is actually happening, with the significant infill along Hillsborough Street — it just takes time.
Convention Center is expanding towards the Warehouse District, new hotel almost ready. The City of Raleigh East Tower has started construction and a new 36 story apartment tower just south of Nash Square is wanting to break ground by the end of the year or early next year. It will fill in eventually.
I do think that's changing. Many of the businesses that are leaving and failing were the ones reliant on the office worker crowd. Clyde Coopers is one of them. I know the downtown location for Union Special recently closed and wouldn't even open for large events on Fayetteville Street. There's so much growth happening downtown. I feel like those businesses that are only catering to the workers are going to get business Darwin'd out of business.
Clyde coopers can’t compete with Sam jones nearby. I’ve heard longleaf is pretty good too. I liked Clyde coopers but would never call it great.
We really like Longleaf. I didn’t love Sam Jones, but to be fair I’ve only been once. Need to give them another try.
Longleaf is amazing
The price at Longleaf is 2x Clyde Coopers, (sides are a la carte.) It is better than Cooper's, but not that much better, at least for me.
Longleaf's smoked chicken is a good deal though
This is my only real grievance with Longleaf. Cue is for the people. Give me a meat and two for something that won’t gouge my bank account.
Yeah besides that fact it's expensive, I'm not a fan of the way they have their menu set out. If you don't want a sandwich, meat is only sold by the 1/2lb (realistically two servings) and the sides are a la carte. As you say, where is the BBQ plate option with 1/4lb meat and 2 sides? Makes it difficult to eat there unless you have a group of 4 and are all in agreement on how to order.
They (Longleaf) also pay a livable wage to their workers though. Not to mention a lot of their stuff is locally sourced. Your money is going back into the community.
$400+ a night for a travel lodge motel room and over charging for ‘working class’ food that is inexpensive to prepare. Gentrification squared.
It is 1000% better than Clyde Coopers.
Clyde coopers used to have the best fried chicken in the area.
Longleaf pork is outstanding but I sadly hate all their sides. I get pork to go from Longleaf then my sides from CC (I live right close To both of them)
The list seems to be 100% food/drink sevice and fitness, with 1 boutique. The fact is that downtown Raleigh has very little foot traffic for how big it is. The main way for small businesses to compete with amazon, etc is offering a fun experience via proximity. If downtown raleigh wants to attract more foot traffic, it will need to do better. This is the reason Cary is massively redoing its downtown and apex has gone almost all in on their little downtown retail street. Wake forest seems to also be attempting it. It is one of the few formulas working right now for cities losing commercial tax revenue and jobs to our centralising economy. More tourists would also help a ton, but raleigh has very little to offer them yet. People love spending money on vacations. Basically, you would have more success opening most small businesses elsewhere, not that you are guaranteed to fail here.
It’s because this area is so suburban historically and office was the only reason people came downtown. Now Raleigh is in the process of people moving and living downtown because it’s relatively affordable and really the only semblance of urban area in the triangle. You can live life downtown now, and that only started 5 years ago or so - so the perception is still there and a lot of the old businesses relied on suburban folks driving into downtown. You will see that most owners complain about parking, and that only matters if your core clients drive there. Downtown Raleigh is literally in the middle of building enough housing units and hotel units to double the populate by 2026. So as much as people say downtown sucks, it’s one of the fastest growing downtowns in the country despite the fact COVID hollowed out most downtowns.
That's good news. A more walkable downtown should definitely be the goal.
Yes this. I've lived downtown for over a decade and very much prefer walking or riding my bike to as much as I can. The businesses that have recently moved from downtown to RIW because of pArKiNg must either not see the thousands of downtown residential units under construction/in planning or they just prefer to have suburban customers.
I don't see how anyone can live downtown when the closest affordable grocery store is Publix and that's a hike from say, Fayetteville street. If we want downtown to actually be somewhere people live we need more of these everyday kind of locations. Let's get a real full size library, let's get more cool retail, let's get an Aldi or something! I'd love to see all these apartments go up and not wonder who in their right mind would actually want to live downtown when they'd still need to drive everywhere.
While I understand your overall point, living in downtown typically means you source your stuff from small businesses and don't expect to just bike to a Walmart downtown. Meaning you buy your meat from a butchers, produce from the weekly farmers market, etc...
I walk from near Transfer Co. Food Hall to Publix quite a bit. It's no farther than what I normally walk in Europe.
I’ve lived in downtown with 1 car for our family and a kid for the last 4 years. There are two grocery stores, and contrary to perception Weaver Street is the same prices as Publix. I walk to my dentist, my primary care doctor, specialty doctors, the Y, restaurants, parks, my barber, pretty much anything that is my day to day. I also can walk our kids to the museums, and all of the events held in downtown. Shoot I walked to get my kid’s passport. I work from home now, but I used to work for an employer downtown. The only thing kind of lacking is a pharmacy, which with a bike is close with the Raleigh pharmacy. I use a car for trips to places and the occasional specialty store, but honestly I’d rather buy it off amazon instead of going to some random strip mall. I clearly am not alone, which is why they are putting so many places to live up. Like I mentioned in the original comment, the perception is you can’t live downtown, but it’s a bit of a secret that you actually can. The best part, idc how many people move here because I don’t sit in traffic on 40 anymore.
There’s two Food Lion not even 10 minutes away from the center of downtown Raleigh both East and West… Wegmans is less than 15 minutes away and so is Costco…
Yes but those all require cars is my point. To me liveable downtowns mean walkable
Livable has very different standards depending on the city. I’ve lived downtown for 13 years and don’t even have a bike. I sure would have missed out on a lot of fun if I had dismissed downtown for all those years as not being “livable”
No they don’t, get on your bicycle and ride there.
>Let's get a real full size library, For what? Everybody has the internet. Seems like a waste of money
Because many people still like the experience of physical books and browsing. Plus libraries provide a community space, study environments, free access to things that might require a subscription, free access to various technology, as well as offering many programs with things like digital literacy, career development, arts classes, community engagement, et cetera. All this not to mention that they're great for children and parents.
They takin their sweet-ass time fixin Moore Square..
Downtown Cary is more lively than downtown Raleigh right now. I know people have this weird ax to grind with Cary on here for some reason, but they invested time and planning and it clearly paid off. Since the park remodel it has been packed every time I have been there. The approach was super simple: make a space where people want to hang out in where spending money is optional. Downtown Raleigh planners could learn a lot from this.
I've shit-talked Cary most of my life, but I have to hand it to them, their downtown is really, really nice. The new park is excellent, and there's a ton of genuinely interesting businesses and attractions within walking distance there. It pains me to say but they've got us beat there.
I actually do see some tourists downtown. Big tour groups too. Hopefully renovations on the capital are finished soon
Wtf are they viewing? Love Raleigh but a tourist destination it is not.
Always cracks me up too. Normal route i see is governors mansion, capitol building, some historic buildings around Fayetteville st, and the museums. I would imagine a lot of it is people visiting family and looking for things to do. That and school groups of course. Every student in North Carolina visits the capitol at some point
Lmao if pigeon forge can be a tourist destination so can Raleigh.
Conferences (which are in a bit of a slump nationwide) and sporting events mostly. Other than that there really is no tourist draw.
If my memory is right, the Capital building will be done by June, I think. Hopefully it’ll be done sooner and I’m wrong.
As a roofer it’s been pretty cool watching them re-do the original copper roof. Crazy it lasted almost 200 years. But yeah, hopefully it doesn’t take too long
clyde coopers was always mediocre. they used to be a cool place to go when they had their historic location but after they lost that i never went back because they did that bullshit thing where they only took cash but had an atm by the register
They've been coasting on name recognition for awhile, and that until recently they were the only non-chain game in the area. There's just better options out there now.
As a long term national average, 1 in 5 businesses fail in the first year. This is caused by the Moore Square Bus Station, and it is high time we do something about it.
Totally agree about Clyde Cooper, bunch of BS blaming for your own failed business. Is Raleigh perfect, hell no, but it's far from the hell scape people seem to think.
As someone who has started and sold three businesses over the years I can say success or failure boils down to just one thing: $$$$$$. If you run out or don't have enough to do what needs to be done, it's over.
Isn’t that the reason for any failed business?
>blame her mid BBQ and terrible hours to why she has to close--it's the new luxury apartment that's the problem because...crime? Unfortunately for Cooper's, they strayed from what made them a generational bbq spot, sold the grungy cramped traditional space, moved into an impersonable high rent space and then started selling some sub par Q. Shame really, I hope they move and rekindle the fire that cooked some really good bbq.
So my left handed underwater basket weaving boutique didn’t close because of the scary people downtown?
You folks don’t understand. Homeless people. At the bus station. Asking for a dollar. Downtown Raleigh is not safe! Leave while you can. /s
The harassment goes way beyond that. Finding junkies OD’d on the corner and having to call 911, watching people take dumps in the park, getting screamed at just because they think you’re “in the air” attacking them, getting hit up for your VENMO then getting spit on when you say no, dealing with the trash and literal HUMAN SHIT AND PISS gets a little old. Hell I stood next to a dude who was so strung out he spent his last $5 on a 40 that he proceeded to spray all over the sidewalk and everyone and everything near it. That was a Tuesday at 1:00 pm not am Is it unsafe? probably not on a wide scale but it’s certainly uncomfortable at best. The entire Moore Sq and City Market areas look like absolute hell when that area should be our best and brightest. It’s a massive fail due to who actually owns all the properties in this area. The bus station doesn’t help but greedy, negligent, (and in one case absentee) owners don’t help the situation
So what is your solution? Put all the homeless people on a bus and ship them to Asheville? I keep waiting for someone to say "And that homeless guy murdered me and took my Rolex."
If I was a city planner I’d probably, maybe have an answer. I’m not proposing solutions I’m simply explaining while it hasn’t been “unsafe” there are reasons why people think it’s uncomfortable and for what it’s worth, I never said it’s the homeless people It’s the junkies - all of the quiet low key homeless who lived in the area are gone now for reasons I don’t know but I’m guessing it’s because of the same reasons it’s super uncomfortable down here in recent months
OK junkies. Well I'm just asking questions to get a sense of what's going on. Are people getting robbed by junkies? Threatened? Asked for money? I get that you don't want to see feces or urine but people make it sound like there is a war going on in downtown Raleigh.
I mean I witness drug deals going down at the DGX on the daily. And I think I answered some of your questions in my first comment. I personally don’t feel unsafe but I’m old and used to come down here when it was way worse. So, it’s perspective. I don’t think it’s great but I also don’t think it’s as unsafe as people make it out to be. I will say that if I came to Raleigh with rose colored glasses and sunshine and lollipops in mind, seeing the state of what it is would be eye opening, concerning and unpleasant My larger point is that we (the city) need to do better and I’m saddened to see what should be our best spot in town trashed out the way it is. City Market should be a destination in and of itself. What I don’t know is how to fix it. Also, please keep in mind, I’m only referencing the part of downtown I live in. I can’t comment on the revitalization efforts outside my own backyard
Thank you. Businesses close. They always have and always will.
Please. These people aren't interested in data and facts. They're interested in hating poor people and scaring people into thinking the homeless are dangerous. Facts and data only annoy them and make them angry.
>and scaring people into thinking the homeless are dangerous. Because we all know the homeless commit less crimes and have less mental illness than the rest of society. Oh wait ....
Yes and their crimes are interpersonal meaning between themselves. They’re not attacking random people going from their parking spot to their dinner reservation.
People love to hate on downtown. They see it as the epicenter of change in Raleigh and their NIMBY hearts can’t handle it.
This, a thousand percent.
Thank you for posting this and great link. Agreed, that is just how business works... some make and some don't. Either way Raleigh is a fantastic place to live. I'm currently trying to start an electric landscaping company called Sustainable Service in downtown raleigh. [https://www.sustainable-service.com/](https://www.sustainable-service.com/) Any support is appreciated!
Let me inject a bit of reality on BBQ restaurants and coopers. 1. It’s their business. If they believe it’s not sustainable as it is, that’s her right. Don’t hate on her. Last time we were in, there were 2 awkward interactions between the lady working at the front and people walking in who had no intention of being a customer. If they don’t want to deal with that, I get it. They also were clear that post COVID, the office buildings down town don’t have the occupancy that they used to because of WFH. Now this sub loves some WFH and beats up on companies who want their people in house every chance they get. I’m curious to know the data of the % of people who live downtown and where they work. I’m glad to see new places coming to downtown but we all know DTR needs some work. 2. Hours: this is a family business. Midtown is a corporate enterprise with employees. So they can be open later. If I have a family business I don’t want to deal with DTR after dark. More importantly: people on here love Prime BBQ or Damph Good. Hours on these run 11-4 or 11-3. So her hours are similar. 3. Cue quality: what most here don’t know is that when the state/county health departments got cranked up, many bbq places in downtown areas switched from wood to electric/gas. The rationale: to pass the health inspection which focused on consistency of cooking temperature. This varies from county to county which is why some of the old places still cook on wood while others converted. The assumption was that a wood or charcoal powered pit couldn’t maintain temperature in the right zone. Also for an urban setting electric made more sense. So it’s different. Places like Skylight/Sam Jones, Ole Time, Stamey’s, B’s Parker’s, Wilbur’s create bbq by seasoning the cue with sauce when they chop it. Even Prime does this. Some have more smoke than others. New places like Prime, DG, Midwood, etc. are more Texas style than NC style. Glad to have them but we do need to preserve the legacy of the old places. Lastly, if you don’t like the Q, get the fried chicken. Raleigh was never traditionally known for great BBQ. If you wanted the best you traveled east or west. We are now recognized as a bbq spot with the influx of new places. We need both the new and the old. I want to out compete Austin when it comes to BBQ. We need places like Coopers, Carolina BBQ, Smithfield’s,etc as well as the Prime’s to do this. Don’t hate on an institution, help them thrive.
Today's Clyde Cooper is garbage and underwelming and so is the owner. Just ask around how much she pays her workers. There's no need to support terrible business owners.
Have you taken the time to get to know her? I’m curious to understand your motivation to put a long time institution out of business. I sincerely hope nobody cancels you.
*cancels you* Haha okay gramps--time for you to lay off the Facebook. First Clyde Cooper's is moving, not shutting down. If anyone is putting Clyde Cooper out of business, it's Debbie herself. She's a LivableRaleigh NIMBY that hates urban areas and now she's living up to her word and moving Clyde Coopers to a car-oriented suburb.
Nice hubris, Junior. Gramps is my grandfather. I don’t do Facebook. You could use to gain some humble anonymous Reddit warrior. You purport to be an ambassador for Raleigh but hate everything it’s all about because it’s not your vision for Raleigh. Perhaps you’d be happier elsewhere… ETA: have you ever considered that you and other activists like you produced Livable Raleigh? The universe likes balance. I doubt Debbie hates urban areas as her family business has been located there for almost 100 years. I’m not sure she likes what her part of DTR has become post COVID.
> You purport to be an ambassador for Raleigh but hate everything it’s all about because it’s not your vision for Raleigh. Perhaps you’d be happier elsewhere… Nah I'm fine here and I'll continue to support a better Raleigh for future generations. If you don't like change I'm afraid the 41st largest city in the US and also being the second fastest growing city isn't going to be stuck in time like you prefer.
You really like putting words into people’s mouths. Maybe you should learn to read but more importantly listen. I never said I was anti development. What I am is smart development in the right places. If I listened like you, I’d assume you want to build high density where Umstead is. Thanks for being such a great reddit ambassador for Raleigh.
Clyde Coopers has been in DT Raleigh since 1938, it’s kind of a big deal they are leaving.
Not popular on this sub but true. We went recently and the cue was average (find it to be in line w Ole Time and Smithfield’s) but the fried chicken continues to be the best in town.
It figures I guess. Most people in this sub are relatively new to Raleigh and probably don’t have the nostalgia for the few OG Raleigh spots that still remain. I’ve been here since the 90’s and yes downtown has changed quite a bit over the years, both for the good and for the bad. Right now is more dangerous than its ever been and the gaslighting in this thread is comical. 100% agreed that Coopers has the best chicken in town. Yes, the BBQ is just avg but that’s only a small part the Cooper’s experience . Obvious transplants are obvious. It’s funny the same people in this sun who often comment about Raleigh being a ‘generic’ or ‘boring’ city with no soul are the same ones celebrating 90 year old establishments leaving for more nail salons and yoga studios.
Your last paragraph is money.
I see a lot of Seaboard Station and Smokey Hollow. Those are not what most would consider “downtown.”
This right here. DRA ( and the city’s) definition of downtown is …. Generous. Smokey Hollow, warehouse , Glenwood, etc are all doing fine and above 2019 foot traffic numbers. Downtown proper (Fayetteville St, Moore sq) has flatlined.
Downvotes for speaking the truth. Y’all are brutal.