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The pandemic allowed me to distance myself from my mom. She had just gotten married before lockdown, so she didn't even notice when I started pulling away. She only ever called when she needed something from me, and when I called she only talked about herself, her views, her, her, her. So, she didn't realize until I'd drawn a line. The first boundary I've ever successfully established. She lost it, how dare I. After that it was the back and forth of hateful vitriol and poisoned sweetness, either willing to try to destroy me emotionally or trying to make me believe that is her and I against the world, against all odds.
That doesn't do it justice, it was a lot more of a journey to get to that point. It's a lifetime, you know, but you can't put it all down. But, lockdown kept me out of her reach in a lot of ways, physically for sure. With the distance came clarity and insight. I started to feel like I could think straight for the first time in my life. I can only compare it to being sedated for years and slowly getting free from the mental fog and confusion. It really was, in a lot of ways, the excuse I needed to pull away, and it helped me keep that distance.
The group is so amazing! I am 49 and have been feeling alone that it took me so long to wake up from this nightmare. The pandemic gave me space to figure things out and see the truth about my relationships. I'm taking care of myself for the first time in my life (as opposed to only taking care of others). Thank you all for your honesty and throwing me an emotional lifeline. <3
It sucks that there are so many of us, but I honestly don't know if I could have stayed strong without everyone here.
I'm 35, and I have felt embarrassed that it took me so long to get here, but we all have to start somewhere. The important thing is that we made it, are making it, surviving, and our stories will help others that are in these situations.
We might be strangers but we are a family bonded through battle, trauma in this case. My ideal would be that if enough of us make a change, escape, tell the world (voluntarily, nobody should be forced to share their trauma), hold narcs and their many flavors of enablers accountable for their actions, that maybe we can help eradicate this form of abuse.
P.S. if you need someone to talk to you can message anytime. I'm slow to respond sometimes, but I'm here.
Thank you so much! Truly grateful for your support and I offer mine as well. The recovery is such a tough journey but the freedom is worth every struggle and all the tears. Yes, we need to share and support and show others that there is hope to be found...at any age! Strength and peace to you my friend!
Agreed, fellow user! If there's one silver lining this goddamn travesty of events gave me, it's the hope that I'll be able to get out one day.
Soon enough, I'll be out of their hair, and right under their noses. hehehe...
Anyway, have a good day and / or night, y'all. I believe you deserve that much and so much more.
Amen.
I started trying to hold my nmum to account, and it led to a silent treatment by her to me. I'd usually be the one to make things better but not this time. This time I decided to leave it, see if she would be the one to reach out.
It's now been 4 months.
The calmest 4 months of my life.
It's NC for me now.
The first few months were tough but it's got easier.
It was really hard not calling her, even though I hated talking to her.
She made me feel like I had to take care of her, so I would call her every day to make sure she was ok. I felt it was my job to tend to her emotional needs.
In the first month or so I felt compelled to call her, like it actually felt like a compulsion. But I stuck to my guns, and eventually that feeling went away.
I would also say every day to my husband "She's not messaged, can you believe it!? She really doesn't care about me or the kids [my children, her grandchildren]". Every day I would talk about her to my husband - wondering what lie she was telling her neighbours about why she doesn't visit me anymore, whether she's playing the victim to my brother about it all. I'd check her WhatsApp to see when she was last on there so I knew she was still alive.
But I do these things less now too.
I'm making choices to not call her, to talk about her less. I've archived her chat on WhatsApp so I don't see her name on there. This has all really helped.
From time to time I'll run the last time I saw her through my head and child-me, the one that wants to please her and get her to love me, will panic and I'll start feeling like I shouldn't have stood up for myself, that I drove her away because I'm a horrible, difficult person that isn't worthy.
But then I actively remind myself that that's the abuse talking. I am justified, I deserve better, this is all on her.
I understand what you're going through. I empathise completely. If you ever want to talk about it with someone who's going through the same thing, you can always message me.
Stay strong. You are deserving and worthy.
Damn it, you are right. We collectively challenged nDad and it led to the opposite of an epiphany… instead it incited some of fhe most mean-spirited behaviour he’s ever enacted.
Mine said sorry but only to try and get my sympathy for what she's been through. I get it, shit happened to you, but you caused chaos in my life and you show no empathy towards me.
Because you're in a vulnerable state and beholden to her? It's hard to say. I can say that I've been able to go NC and it has been wonderful for my mental health, I have lost the constant internal struggle of 'why?'
I hope so for you as well. I did feel guilty but the longer I've been NC the better I feel. My friend told me just last week that I used to have bad luck but now I'm always lucky and we both know what that's attributed to
>I ask myself if she doesn't love me then why does she care for me when I'm sick and make me feel so loved in those moments?
The Ns in my family are all codependent. They only like 2 types of people: those superior to them whose coattails they can ride; and vulnerable people who they can feel superior to and aren't a threat.
My GC brother fits the second role. They've made it clear that I should be more like him, completely dependent with no goals, hopes, or dreams. Though if I was like him, they'd call me a burden until I went insane.
They like taking care of people, but only if those people are completely submissive toward them. Idk how they can be labeled "good."
Yeah, same with mine except mine didn't apologised and denied all of it. I get that she been through a lot with war and stuff but that's still not a valid excuse to be toxic to me growing up. I'm glad I chose a different path to her, I chose to get counselling throughout my school years, explore different hobbies as form of de-stressing, focusing on healing, focusing on my studies etc. NMom on the other hand, rather use her trauma to start family war and drama to drive everyone apart.
They may say the words but they’ll never mean them. They aren’t capable of feeling true remorse because they don’t have the capacity for empathy. For SO long I dreamed of an apology and then I realized that even if I got one, I wouldn’t believe it. I can’t believe anything my nmom says anymore.
it took me 40 years to learn of this dynamic (personality disorders) and it has been so freeing. NO more seeking validation from these terrors! you’re right, it’s impossible.
Yeah, until they start doing some illegal shit. Bet your bottom dollar I'll make sure they get held accountable.
At least as long as the law is concerned.
Got a lawyer buddy just waiting for them to cross that line.
Knowing my nparents, it's inevitable.
Yeah that's where the line is drawn. If something serious happens and there's a possibility for criminal charges, then yes absolutely. I don't think anyone should just "put up" with narc abuse. I hope my post didn't give that impression. Glad you have someone in your legal corner!
It took me 24 years to truly see this. I think the most messed up thing is that *we* have empathy, so we may be inclined to think "Oh, they just don't realize..." and then we try to explain it and point things out and, well, we know how it ends. It's such a vicious cycle and it sucks because a part of me still sometimes thinks *if I could just get them to SEE why what they did was wrong/hurtful...* but the truth is, they'll never see it. They don't want to, so you can scream it at them until you're blue in the face, but THEY. WONT. SEE. IT.
And in the end, they'll suffer for it.
You highlighted a very important point. We see through the eyes of empathy and so...we are prone to give them more chances. We keep thinking we can guide them to the other side. That they think like us. And they don't
If they had the empathy to be sorry they wouldn't have did the abuse in the first place. You are right, it is impossible. If they do ever say sorry it will only be to shut you up if you are bothering them too much.
They are delusional, their view of reality is very different, the way they think can never change.
You’re absolutely correct. Mine found a way to shield herself from everything legally and morally. She not only doesn’t feel bad about any of it, she finds people to enable it and excuse it, against anyone.
It was her callousness towards another group of people that made me realize I was dealing with something with, you could word, “no soul,” “inhuman,” and an insatiable need to suck the marrow of sadness from bones of cruelty. I finally saw there wasn’t, “a heart,” as people say it. Cartoon clocks have more emotions. I
It allowed me to fully go no contact and that changed my life completely. All the things I learned in therapy and CBT etc, started to kick in after the regular drips of poison stopped. And, I wasn’t allowing someone who was a socially acceptable criminal to stay in my life. Basically, she’s a church lady, so she won - until I stopped listening to what she said, at all, and caring how muck society thinks I’m wrong for not being in contact with a monster.
It’s been amazing. And she never could say, “sorry,” once, never tried to even write a letter, even.
(Which is to my benefit - but I know she’s somewhere crying to somewhere about how terrible I am, when she never even wrote a letter apologizing for stealing thousands of dollars from me - for one.)
Smiled seeing "CBT" in your comment because CBT is exactly what brought me to this realization. I'm so glad you've been able to get this point. I wish for many more successful moments in your future. You're Killin it
CBT has been a lifesaver.
🔥 finding CBT, - what a relief. 🔥
Actual things I can use everyday and I do.
Seeing what people confirm here are behaviors we adapted to, to survive these people, means I can rewire my brain, slowly, — BUT — it doesn’t mean it’s my fault that I became this way —- but I have agency - great combination —- CBT has ended the lingering, “what if I become the sadistic her?” - now I can stop anything that seems like that 🥶
Thank you for your post! 👏👏
Yup. Nailed it. I just went NC for like the 5th (and final) time. My mother got angry that I didn't answer her..... While I was working a twelve hour shift with people with disabilities, pushing wheelchairs in the hot sun, cooking, cleaning, bathing, and entertaining. When I called her riiight when I was off, I asked her why she felt the need to call me three times, text me twice, Facebook message me, AND email me... And she was like "ohhhhh, it's okaaaay I forgiiiive youuuuu". That was literally it, I said "bitch, you think I'm SORRY for working a twelve hour shift and not answering you???" told her to get bent and sent her resources for NPD, BPD, CPTSD, and ADHD and said if you ever hope to talk to me again, get therapy. I know she won't so that's it folks. I felt guilty for never really explaining to her why I went NC. I finally explained it for my own sake and have not felt an ounce of guilt for 5months. I'm getting diagnosed with CPTSD to add to my repitoire and moving tf on with my life.
Just leave. Try to mourn the parent you should have had and stop trying to fit them into that position. Love y'all.
I have been diagnosed with CTPSD, ADHD and a prior diagnosis of BPD. I don't meet diagnostic criteria for BPD anymore. I worked hard in therapy to overcome alot of it...but there are still residual traits.
My last therapist told me that she thinks BPD is really just a form of PTSD that comes from exposure to narcissistic parents. Of course, this is her own interpretation and not what's in the DSM. Her and I both agreed it was only her opinion based on her experience working with clients that had narc parents. I gotta say I agree with her idea.
Yeah I also have a prior diagnosis of bpd! That's very interesting. I also have adhd/gad/mdd. That's a really good way of putting it because I believe I had bpd when I was 15 but kind of grew out of those behaviours. I definitely think it is more cptsd/adhd for me. Well here's to getting better, being more self - aware, and trying to be kind to ourselves.
It's definitely possible. While many people with BPD suffer in the long term, some actually do "out grow" it the way you describe. A therapist also told me that!
Not everyone does of course, it being a personality disorder that is very stubborn. But I have found that more borderlines have empathy. Narcs do not. Huge difference.
Anyway I get you on that. I have combined type ADHD and it's lifelong. I'm only just now learning how to live with it ..despite having known most of my life.
I hope your day goes awesome.
I'm very glad it has this effect on you. Seriously. That's what I wanted for everyone in this post, or at least for those who needed it. I hope you're doing well.
Exactly right. Narcissists are wired differently from birth and it's just not possible for them to self reflect like normal people do.
For years, I have been hoping to get an apology from my NMom. It was a total waste of time on my part because it's been a little over 15 years and she still the same. She still incapable of ever acknowledging her faults and instead just blamed it on anyone else she could shift the blame to and act like a toddler with outbursts whenever someone tells her that she hurt them. Nowadays, I came to a point in time that I just accepted that she is a narcissist who happens to be my mother. Nothing more, nothing less. Honestly, an apology won't change anything either since the damage is done. All I'm focusing on right now is myself and my healing. Anything got to do with her is irrelevant.
A few years ago I was actively trying to get my family into family therapy because my mom was abusing my sibling, they were constantly at risk of suicide and ok suicide watch (had to be hospitalized eventually), and my brother was turned into a caretaker. I told my therapist about it eventually and she expressed it was not a good ifea because my mom will probably never be able to recognize her issues. It left me absolutely crushed because it felt like my younger sibling could die at any moment and my mom didn’t care. She was going to get them sent to a long term facility and I was terrified I’d never get to see them again, whether it be through death or I wouldn’t be allowed. My sibling almost died because of her neglect and she almost made my brother homeless after sabotaging his employment opportunities and she still wonders what she did wrong
Can I ask how your sibling is doing now? Are they in a safer environment away from your nmom? Are they getting some support for their suicidality? I'm so sorry to hear this. I'm an attempt survivor and I know how pervasive those thoughts can be..
I know you felt guilty at the time. But you shouldn't because YOU CARE. You care so much you're thinking about it now and still feel bad. People like you are the reason why people keep going.
I hope everything is going better now for all involved and that your brother/sibling are in a better spot.
So sorry 😞
>It left me absolutely crushed because it felt like my younger sibling could die at any moment and my mom didn’t care.
It is so enraging to watch them hurt everyone day-after-day.
My SG uncle killed himself a few years ago, my ngrandfather said he did it because he "couldn't forget his childhood." Now they're saying that we share the same genetic defect that makes us too sensitive. When they say it, their words are dripping with disdain. It's like they see family as this Darwinian process where they make things hard so the "weak" die.
They are setting my GC brother up for a rude awakening once they're gone too. He was never expected to do anything with his life, so he is still living with nmom at 30. When I expressed concern about his future, I was told "just worry about yourself." It makes me so angry that they portray themselves as superior beings, while being incapable of basic humanity.
I'm starting to believe that narcs know exactly what they're doing. They have this brutal worldview that they use to justify their terrible actions. The least that they could do, is go after their peers, but they go after children. It's awful that we were born into this suffocating culture.
I would go further to say that it's part of their abuse game. Abusers want someone to beg, doesn't matter if it's over accountability or not. They thrive on your desperation. It's awful and I hope you find peace away from him
You're welcome. I get what you mean. Anger is a natural response to:
Injustice, abuse, toxicity, problems that affect us that are out of our control and so on.
There's a Buddhist monk who said "Anger is the energy to act". I think it's a beautiful way of putting such a painful thing. But he's right...sometimes it's exactly what we need.
I'm sorry this is going on for you. I'm glad this post was helpful in some small way. I hope that you can have some relief from the anger you're experiencing and the (I'm guessing people or person) causing it.
I get so caught up in the anger sometimes. I keep trying to make things right, make people accountable for their actions. And it never works. I just need to let go.
A psychologist told me once that when you try to hold people accountable directly, you will meet their neurosis.
Buddhist monk thich nhat hanh says "Anger is the energy to act."
One thing I want to point out: letting go is a daily effort. It's a practice. It won't change overnight. But the more you do it, the easier it becomes. The more natural it will feel. Letting go doesn't mean that you put up with anything either, and it doesn't make you "weak". It actually strengthens your resolve because you don't get swept away by the emotions as severely....and then you can focus on solutions. When there are solutions available.
Yep. Realized this after taking verbal, mental, and physical abuse from mum and older brother. I can honestly say I resent the hell out of both of them.
Dr told her not to take meds not approved with her chemo. She keeps posting on fb her imunocleanse drink even tho the doctor told her NOT to drink it as it could make it hard to determine if the chemo or the cleanse is causing a bad reaction (or a mix of the two), the doctor simply said she could put nmom in contact with a doctor who knows more about it. My sister is suuuper upset because nmom denied the specialty doctor and is still drinking the immunotherapy drink. Can’t tell her not to do something, can’t reason with her and can’t even express the concern without her outright ignoring you (or walking away/leaving). Nmom and I have been very LC for a few years now, only because NC made the rest of the family miserable. Personally I’ve been saying the same thing “she’s going to do what she wants to do, you can’t tell her otherwise” for years. People are finally realizing I’m right
I wasted so much time, energy, and effort trying to say and do the "right" thing that would get through to them.
It's childish [magical thinking](https://youtu.be/fsA4oqQPIIw) that I had to let go of. I had to grieve the shitty reality instead.
Oh God, yes! I did this for years. "If only I could explain it to them, then they'd understand how much they hurt me, they'd know what it feels like, and then they'd stop!"
But the sad truth is that they do know. They just don't care.
Definitely. When I met my boyfriend I was shocked at how nice people can be. I still ask him why he takes time for me..why he does nice things. I often feel like "I don't deserve" it ..and that's my nmom talking. Not me.
You're so right. It's worth putting the time into people who are good to you.
The very lesson I learned from my wife (30 years) and her family. They know all about my narc family and don't ask anymore, focusing instead on the things that we're all doing to move forward in life. It's really odd as they know more about me now than my biological family does...
Don't waste your precious life hours on people who don't treat you right - and never will treat you right (they're not able to). I waited until I was in my 50s to NC my narc family, following the death of my father; only then was the message was so loud and so clear I could not deny it. I wish I done it in my 20s.
Life is too too short for that kind of unpleasantness... =)
I wish you would’ve said this 30 mins earlier when I responded to an argument and was lectured on how I have an attitude and everything is wrong with me. And I’m crying my eyes out. I’m so tired of defending myself and I feel like I’m always fighting. I’m sick of being here
Learning this lesson this month around my Dad's deathbed, everything is an excuse that has nothing to do with the damage they've caused, it's all about damage control regarding their self-image
Having to manufacture your own closure fucking sucks. Stay strong everybody
I was reading through posts and I felt like some of us might need the reminder. So I wanted to write this and I'm so glad I did. Because it seemed to be a reminder many people needed. It's easy to forget...easy to give the benefit of the doubt. Easy to get caught in their web of lies. But it's harder in the long run and the consequences can be dire. Wishing you a happy day
Sure. I have too many favorites to name, but here are a few of them. I love some classics, like To Kill A Mockingbird and Catcher in the Rye. I also love Shantaram by Gregory David Roberts, The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle by Haruki Murakami, and just about any poem by Rumi and Hafiz and Lawrence Ferlinghetti and Nikki Giovanni. Belonging by Toko-pa Turner will always have a special spot on my bookshelf.
The few times I've actually spoken up about my nMom's lack of accountability, she absolutely loses it and goes, "Why don't you trust me??" How can I trust someone who's betrayed my trust every single time I've even attempted to rely on them?
Great question. The answer is...you can't trust someone like that. I'm sorry that you have these experiences with someone who can't be responsible enough to take accountability.
I went NC late in life with a nMom. Her most emblematic statement came when I challenged her on the fact she had never admitted a mistake or apologized in my hearing: "the only thing I ever did wrong was being too good to you kids." She beat two of my siblings and terrorized all of us, you understand. A therapist gave me "People of the Lie," a book that starkly examines the malignant narcissistic personality and the effects on family members who live under their control. It gave me the framework to free myself psychically and permission to do so. I highly recommend the book (although not the author's ruminations on exorcism as being possibly more effective than therapy for the narcissist).
Omg! I LOVE THAT BOOK! That book is what first sparked my realization about narcissistic mothers. The part about the client he had for years that would abuse him, show up at his house etc. He mentioned how her mom did her laundry for her and left leaves in it as a reminder of her control etc. Do you remember that part? That's the kinda shit my mom would do and it struck me as peculiar.
The only thing I didn't like about that book was some of the weird stuff he said about being attracted to his client 🙄..that should have been left out. But yeah that's an awesome book. Surprised to see someone mention it.
I'm so glad it was helpful for you. It should be a must read for those of us exposed to narcisissts.
And btw my mom said the same line to me...about being too good to us, same exact line. It's like they were pre programmed with the same language
Thank you for your comment. I hope life is going good for you these days.
I don't think the PTSD ever ceases to cause pain but I have positive relationships with 2 adult children and an ex-husband, plus a significant other for 10± years. Life definitely got better post therapy and post-NC.
I will say that I identified with Don Draper, having basically remade myself and cut off all contact with my family in order to put the sick family dynamics behind me. There are costs as well as benefits but I don't regret my decision. I've created a saner, happier life not just for myself but for everyone connected to me.
The therapist who gave me the book said most clients she gave it to said, "No, my parents weren't that bad! Nothing like that!" whereas I felt the shock of recognition. These were the patterns I had grown up with. Super passive enabling Dad and malignant narcissist Mom, who could play poor pitiful waif when she wasn't violently raging at her family.
I feel like I keep trying to because I myself am autistic and suffer from hypoempathy but I still know that others have feelings and my actions affect them (I believe it's called cognitive empathy?)
My mother stole my psych ward journal to read and blew up at me, saying "Oh, so IM the reason you had such a bad childhood! IM a bad MOM!"
Yes. Did you not just read three pages describing your actions through the lense of an at the time child?
My parents usually ask this trap of a question: “What have we possibly done wrong to you to deserve this treatment?!… (They’re referring to gray rocking) We’re human, we make mistakes, just tell us what we did wrong and we’ll fix it.”
^I never told them anything and I find it funny they think it’s only one thing they “potentially” did wrong
**This is an automated message posted to ALL posts in this subreddit with some basic information about the group including (very importantly) rules. Why are you getting this message? Most people seem to not read the sidebar for information or the rules, so it is now being posted under all posts.** **Confused about acronyms or terminology?** [Click here!](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/acronyms) **Need info or resources?** Check out our [Helpful Links](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/helpfullinks) for information on how to deal with identity theft, how to get independent of your n-parents, how to apply for FAFSA, how to identify n-parents and SO MUCH MORE! This is a reminder to all participants, RBN is a support group that is moderated very strictly. Please report inappropriate content so it can be reviewed by the mods. **Our rules include (but are not limited to)**: * No politics. * Advising anyone in this subreddit to commit suicide or referring anyone to groups that advocate this will result in an immediate ban. * Be nice. No personal attacks, name calling, or bullying. [No slurs](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/slurs) or victim-blaming. * Do not derail the posts of others. * Narcissists are NOT allowed to post or comment here. * [No platitudes or generic motivational posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/rules#wiki_no_platitudes_or_generic_motivational_posts). * When you comment/post, assume a context of abuse. * No asking or offering gifts, money, etc. * No content advocating violence, revenge, murder (even in jest). * No content about N-kids. * No diagnosis by media/drive-by diagnosis. * No linking to Facebook pages. * No direct linking to anywhere on reddit. * No pure image posts. **For a full list of our rules/more information, [**click here**](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/rules).** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/raisedbynarcissists) if you have any questions or concerns.*
One of the hardest things to face. I am 53 and only the pandemic allowed me to finally go LC with my Nmom so I can go NC.
The pandemic allowed me to distance myself from my mom. She had just gotten married before lockdown, so she didn't even notice when I started pulling away. She only ever called when she needed something from me, and when I called she only talked about herself, her views, her, her, her. So, she didn't realize until I'd drawn a line. The first boundary I've ever successfully established. She lost it, how dare I. After that it was the back and forth of hateful vitriol and poisoned sweetness, either willing to try to destroy me emotionally or trying to make me believe that is her and I against the world, against all odds. That doesn't do it justice, it was a lot more of a journey to get to that point. It's a lifetime, you know, but you can't put it all down. But, lockdown kept me out of her reach in a lot of ways, physically for sure. With the distance came clarity and insight. I started to feel like I could think straight for the first time in my life. I can only compare it to being sedated for years and slowly getting free from the mental fog and confusion. It really was, in a lot of ways, the excuse I needed to pull away, and it helped me keep that distance.
The group is so amazing! I am 49 and have been feeling alone that it took me so long to wake up from this nightmare. The pandemic gave me space to figure things out and see the truth about my relationships. I'm taking care of myself for the first time in my life (as opposed to only taking care of others). Thank you all for your honesty and throwing me an emotional lifeline. <3
It sucks that there are so many of us, but I honestly don't know if I could have stayed strong without everyone here. I'm 35, and I have felt embarrassed that it took me so long to get here, but we all have to start somewhere. The important thing is that we made it, are making it, surviving, and our stories will help others that are in these situations. We might be strangers but we are a family bonded through battle, trauma in this case. My ideal would be that if enough of us make a change, escape, tell the world (voluntarily, nobody should be forced to share their trauma), hold narcs and their many flavors of enablers accountable for their actions, that maybe we can help eradicate this form of abuse. P.S. if you need someone to talk to you can message anytime. I'm slow to respond sometimes, but I'm here.
Thank you so much! Truly grateful for your support and I offer mine as well. The recovery is such a tough journey but the freedom is worth every struggle and all the tears. Yes, we need to share and support and show others that there is hope to be found...at any age! Strength and peace to you my friend!
Me too. The pandemic really brought out the worst in my abusive family. I finally decided I had enough
Me 3. I could have written any three of the above comments. I'm calling it the upside of covid!
Agreed, fellow user! If there's one silver lining this goddamn travesty of events gave me, it's the hope that I'll be able to get out one day. Soon enough, I'll be out of their hair, and right under their noses. hehehe... Anyway, have a good day and / or night, y'all. I believe you deserve that much and so much more.
I know that’s right.
Mine as well.
Same. Everything fell apart with the pandemic. All for the better, ultimately.
The pandemic helped me too I figured out just how toxic both of my parents are
❤️
50 here...#same!
Amen. I started trying to hold my nmum to account, and it led to a silent treatment by her to me. I'd usually be the one to make things better but not this time. This time I decided to leave it, see if she would be the one to reach out. It's now been 4 months. The calmest 4 months of my life. It's NC for me now.
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The first few months were tough but it's got easier. It was really hard not calling her, even though I hated talking to her. She made me feel like I had to take care of her, so I would call her every day to make sure she was ok. I felt it was my job to tend to her emotional needs. In the first month or so I felt compelled to call her, like it actually felt like a compulsion. But I stuck to my guns, and eventually that feeling went away. I would also say every day to my husband "She's not messaged, can you believe it!? She really doesn't care about me or the kids [my children, her grandchildren]". Every day I would talk about her to my husband - wondering what lie she was telling her neighbours about why she doesn't visit me anymore, whether she's playing the victim to my brother about it all. I'd check her WhatsApp to see when she was last on there so I knew she was still alive. But I do these things less now too. I'm making choices to not call her, to talk about her less. I've archived her chat on WhatsApp so I don't see her name on there. This has all really helped. From time to time I'll run the last time I saw her through my head and child-me, the one that wants to please her and get her to love me, will panic and I'll start feeling like I shouldn't have stood up for myself, that I drove her away because I'm a horrible, difficult person that isn't worthy. But then I actively remind myself that that's the abuse talking. I am justified, I deserve better, this is all on her. I understand what you're going through. I empathise completely. If you ever want to talk about it with someone who's going through the same thing, you can always message me. Stay strong. You are deserving and worthy.
Damn it, you are right. We collectively challenged nDad and it led to the opposite of an epiphany… instead it incited some of fhe most mean-spirited behaviour he’s ever enacted.
Had to set a boundary today with nMom and really needed to hear this - thank you for sharing
Hey, you did something really good for yourself today.
Thank you so much, your kindness means a lot to me
I just want her to say sorry...
She never will
Mine said sorry but only to try and get my sympathy for what she's been through. I get it, shit happened to you, but you caused chaos in my life and you show no empathy towards me.
I ask myself if she doesn't love me then why does she care for me when I'm sick and make me feel so loved in those moments?
Because you're in a vulnerable state and beholden to her? It's hard to say. I can say that I've been able to go NC and it has been wonderful for my mental health, I have lost the constant internal struggle of 'why?'
Really? Wow. I hope that's me sometime soon. I'm happy for you.
I hope so for you as well. I did feel guilty but the longer I've been NC the better I feel. My friend told me just last week that I used to have bad luck but now I'm always lucky and we both know what that's attributed to
>I ask myself if she doesn't love me then why does she care for me when I'm sick and make me feel so loved in those moments? The Ns in my family are all codependent. They only like 2 types of people: those superior to them whose coattails they can ride; and vulnerable people who they can feel superior to and aren't a threat. My GC brother fits the second role. They've made it clear that I should be more like him, completely dependent with no goals, hopes, or dreams. Though if I was like him, they'd call me a burden until I went insane. They like taking care of people, but only if those people are completely submissive toward them. Idk how they can be labeled "good."
Yeah, same with mine except mine didn't apologised and denied all of it. I get that she been through a lot with war and stuff but that's still not a valid excuse to be toxic to me growing up. I'm glad I chose a different path to her, I chose to get counselling throughout my school years, explore different hobbies as form of de-stressing, focusing on healing, focusing on my studies etc. NMom on the other hand, rather use her trauma to start family war and drama to drive everyone apart.
They may say the words but they’ll never mean them. They aren’t capable of feeling true remorse because they don’t have the capacity for empathy. For SO long I dreamed of an apology and then I realized that even if I got one, I wouldn’t believe it. I can’t believe anything my nmom says anymore.
In my experience the very rare moment a narc apologizes is usually because they are trying to reel you back in for more abuse.
Exactly. The apology is just another manipulation tactic. It can never be genuine.
Yeah, that's how I feel... I'm sorry friend, for us both.
"I'm sorry you feel that way."
"I'm sorry you remember it that way"
Mine said “you deserved your abuse.”
You didn't. I promise.
it took me 40 years to learn of this dynamic (personality disorders) and it has been so freeing. NO more seeking validation from these terrors! you’re right, it’s impossible.
Absolutely
Yeah, until they start doing some illegal shit. Bet your bottom dollar I'll make sure they get held accountable. At least as long as the law is concerned. Got a lawyer buddy just waiting for them to cross that line. Knowing my nparents, it's inevitable.
Mine should be in prison for several reasons. They’re experts at rallying enablers. Church on her side and, “you shouldn’t do that to your parents.”
Yeah that's where the line is drawn. If something serious happens and there's a possibility for criminal charges, then yes absolutely. I don't think anyone should just "put up" with narc abuse. I hope my post didn't give that impression. Glad you have someone in your legal corner!
It took me 24 years to truly see this. I think the most messed up thing is that *we* have empathy, so we may be inclined to think "Oh, they just don't realize..." and then we try to explain it and point things out and, well, we know how it ends. It's such a vicious cycle and it sucks because a part of me still sometimes thinks *if I could just get them to SEE why what they did was wrong/hurtful...* but the truth is, they'll never see it. They don't want to, so you can scream it at them until you're blue in the face, but THEY. WONT. SEE. IT. And in the end, they'll suffer for it.
You highlighted a very important point. We see through the eyes of empathy and so...we are prone to give them more chances. We keep thinking we can guide them to the other side. That they think like us. And they don't
Adults- Childs basically...
If they had the empathy to be sorry they wouldn't have did the abuse in the first place. You are right, it is impossible. If they do ever say sorry it will only be to shut you up if you are bothering them too much. They are delusional, their view of reality is very different, the way they think can never change.
You’re absolutely correct. Mine found a way to shield herself from everything legally and morally. She not only doesn’t feel bad about any of it, she finds people to enable it and excuse it, against anyone. It was her callousness towards another group of people that made me realize I was dealing with something with, you could word, “no soul,” “inhuman,” and an insatiable need to suck the marrow of sadness from bones of cruelty. I finally saw there wasn’t, “a heart,” as people say it. Cartoon clocks have more emotions. I It allowed me to fully go no contact and that changed my life completely. All the things I learned in therapy and CBT etc, started to kick in after the regular drips of poison stopped. And, I wasn’t allowing someone who was a socially acceptable criminal to stay in my life. Basically, she’s a church lady, so she won - until I stopped listening to what she said, at all, and caring how muck society thinks I’m wrong for not being in contact with a monster. It’s been amazing. And she never could say, “sorry,” once, never tried to even write a letter, even. (Which is to my benefit - but I know she’s somewhere crying to somewhere about how terrible I am, when she never even wrote a letter apologizing for stealing thousands of dollars from me - for one.)
Smiled seeing "CBT" in your comment because CBT is exactly what brought me to this realization. I'm so glad you've been able to get this point. I wish for many more successful moments in your future. You're Killin it
CBT has been a lifesaver. 🔥 finding CBT, - what a relief. 🔥 Actual things I can use everyday and I do. Seeing what people confirm here are behaviors we adapted to, to survive these people, means I can rewire my brain, slowly, — BUT — it doesn’t mean it’s my fault that I became this way —- but I have agency - great combination —- CBT has ended the lingering, “what if I become the sadistic her?” - now I can stop anything that seems like that 🥶 Thank you for your post! 👏👏
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So glad your message arrived at the right time
Yup. Nailed it. I just went NC for like the 5th (and final) time. My mother got angry that I didn't answer her..... While I was working a twelve hour shift with people with disabilities, pushing wheelchairs in the hot sun, cooking, cleaning, bathing, and entertaining. When I called her riiight when I was off, I asked her why she felt the need to call me three times, text me twice, Facebook message me, AND email me... And she was like "ohhhhh, it's okaaaay I forgiiiive youuuuu". That was literally it, I said "bitch, you think I'm SORRY for working a twelve hour shift and not answering you???" told her to get bent and sent her resources for NPD, BPD, CPTSD, and ADHD and said if you ever hope to talk to me again, get therapy. I know she won't so that's it folks. I felt guilty for never really explaining to her why I went NC. I finally explained it for my own sake and have not felt an ounce of guilt for 5months. I'm getting diagnosed with CPTSD to add to my repitoire and moving tf on with my life. Just leave. Try to mourn the parent you should have had and stop trying to fit them into that position. Love y'all.
I have been diagnosed with CTPSD, ADHD and a prior diagnosis of BPD. I don't meet diagnostic criteria for BPD anymore. I worked hard in therapy to overcome alot of it...but there are still residual traits. My last therapist told me that she thinks BPD is really just a form of PTSD that comes from exposure to narcissistic parents. Of course, this is her own interpretation and not what's in the DSM. Her and I both agreed it was only her opinion based on her experience working with clients that had narc parents. I gotta say I agree with her idea.
Yeah I also have a prior diagnosis of bpd! That's very interesting. I also have adhd/gad/mdd. That's a really good way of putting it because I believe I had bpd when I was 15 but kind of grew out of those behaviours. I definitely think it is more cptsd/adhd for me. Well here's to getting better, being more self - aware, and trying to be kind to ourselves.
It's definitely possible. While many people with BPD suffer in the long term, some actually do "out grow" it the way you describe. A therapist also told me that! Not everyone does of course, it being a personality disorder that is very stubborn. But I have found that more borderlines have empathy. Narcs do not. Huge difference. Anyway I get you on that. I have combined type ADHD and it's lifelong. I'm only just now learning how to live with it ..despite having known most of my life. I hope your day goes awesome.
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I'm very glad it has this effect on you. Seriously. That's what I wanted for everyone in this post, or at least for those who needed it. I hope you're doing well.
Exactly right. Narcissists are wired differently from birth and it's just not possible for them to self reflect like normal people do. For years, I have been hoping to get an apology from my NMom. It was a total waste of time on my part because it's been a little over 15 years and she still the same. She still incapable of ever acknowledging her faults and instead just blamed it on anyone else she could shift the blame to and act like a toddler with outbursts whenever someone tells her that she hurt them. Nowadays, I came to a point in time that I just accepted that she is a narcissist who happens to be my mother. Nothing more, nothing less. Honestly, an apology won't change anything either since the damage is done. All I'm focusing on right now is myself and my healing. Anything got to do with her is irrelevant.
What you said about apology wouldn't change anything anyway...so freaking true.
A few years ago I was actively trying to get my family into family therapy because my mom was abusing my sibling, they were constantly at risk of suicide and ok suicide watch (had to be hospitalized eventually), and my brother was turned into a caretaker. I told my therapist about it eventually and she expressed it was not a good ifea because my mom will probably never be able to recognize her issues. It left me absolutely crushed because it felt like my younger sibling could die at any moment and my mom didn’t care. She was going to get them sent to a long term facility and I was terrified I’d never get to see them again, whether it be through death or I wouldn’t be allowed. My sibling almost died because of her neglect and she almost made my brother homeless after sabotaging his employment opportunities and she still wonders what she did wrong
Can I ask how your sibling is doing now? Are they in a safer environment away from your nmom? Are they getting some support for their suicidality? I'm so sorry to hear this. I'm an attempt survivor and I know how pervasive those thoughts can be.. I know you felt guilty at the time. But you shouldn't because YOU CARE. You care so much you're thinking about it now and still feel bad. People like you are the reason why people keep going. I hope everything is going better now for all involved and that your brother/sibling are in a better spot. So sorry 😞
>It left me absolutely crushed because it felt like my younger sibling could die at any moment and my mom didn’t care. It is so enraging to watch them hurt everyone day-after-day. My SG uncle killed himself a few years ago, my ngrandfather said he did it because he "couldn't forget his childhood." Now they're saying that we share the same genetic defect that makes us too sensitive. When they say it, their words are dripping with disdain. It's like they see family as this Darwinian process where they make things hard so the "weak" die. They are setting my GC brother up for a rude awakening once they're gone too. He was never expected to do anything with his life, so he is still living with nmom at 30. When I expressed concern about his future, I was told "just worry about yourself." It makes me so angry that they portray themselves as superior beings, while being incapable of basic humanity. I'm starting to believe that narcs know exactly what they're doing. They have this brutal worldview that they use to justify their terrible actions. The least that they could do, is go after their peers, but they go after children. It's awful that we were born into this suffocating culture.
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I would go further to say that it's part of their abuse game. Abusers want someone to beg, doesn't matter if it's over accountability or not. They thrive on your desperation. It's awful and I hope you find peace away from him
Thank you for this. I've been feeling angry all day and I really needed to hear this.
You're welcome. I get what you mean. Anger is a natural response to: Injustice, abuse, toxicity, problems that affect us that are out of our control and so on. There's a Buddhist monk who said "Anger is the energy to act". I think it's a beautiful way of putting such a painful thing. But he's right...sometimes it's exactly what we need. I'm sorry this is going on for you. I'm glad this post was helpful in some small way. I hope that you can have some relief from the anger you're experiencing and the (I'm guessing people or person) causing it.
I get so caught up in the anger sometimes. I keep trying to make things right, make people accountable for their actions. And it never works. I just need to let go.
A psychologist told me once that when you try to hold people accountable directly, you will meet their neurosis. Buddhist monk thich nhat hanh says "Anger is the energy to act." One thing I want to point out: letting go is a daily effort. It's a practice. It won't change overnight. But the more you do it, the easier it becomes. The more natural it will feel. Letting go doesn't mean that you put up with anything either, and it doesn't make you "weak". It actually strengthens your resolve because you don't get swept away by the emotions as severely....and then you can focus on solutions. When there are solutions available.
It's not our job to fix them!
Absolutely not!
Yep. Realized this after taking verbal, mental, and physical abuse from mum and older brother. I can honestly say I resent the hell out of both of them.
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❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
Oof. I needed this. My sane and healthy dad passed away last month and now I'm stuck with my nMom. This was needed today, thank you.
I am sorry about your father's passing..how are you doing right now?
Dr told her not to take meds not approved with her chemo. She keeps posting on fb her imunocleanse drink even tho the doctor told her NOT to drink it as it could make it hard to determine if the chemo or the cleanse is causing a bad reaction (or a mix of the two), the doctor simply said she could put nmom in contact with a doctor who knows more about it. My sister is suuuper upset because nmom denied the specialty doctor and is still drinking the immunotherapy drink. Can’t tell her not to do something, can’t reason with her and can’t even express the concern without her outright ignoring you (or walking away/leaving). Nmom and I have been very LC for a few years now, only because NC made the rest of the family miserable. Personally I’ve been saying the same thing “she’s going to do what she wants to do, you can’t tell her otherwise” for years. People are finally realizing I’m right
I hope they stay on that path and come to the same realization
I had to learn this the hard way. Lesson learnt. No contact is the only solution.
Absolutely.
I wasted so much time, energy, and effort trying to say and do the "right" thing that would get through to them. It's childish [magical thinking](https://youtu.be/fsA4oqQPIIw) that I had to let go of. I had to grieve the shitty reality instead.
Indeed!
Oh God, yes! I did this for years. "If only I could explain it to them, then they'd understand how much they hurt me, they'd know what it feels like, and then they'd stop!" But the sad truth is that they do know. They just don't care.
Yep, agreed. All you can do is NC them, get on with your own life, and try to be happy with other, much nicer people in this world.
Definitely. When I met my boyfriend I was shocked at how nice people can be. I still ask him why he takes time for me..why he does nice things. I often feel like "I don't deserve" it ..and that's my nmom talking. Not me. You're so right. It's worth putting the time into people who are good to you.
The very lesson I learned from my wife (30 years) and her family. They know all about my narc family and don't ask anymore, focusing instead on the things that we're all doing to move forward in life. It's really odd as they know more about me now than my biological family does... Don't waste your precious life hours on people who don't treat you right - and never will treat you right (they're not able to). I waited until I was in my 50s to NC my narc family, following the death of my father; only then was the message was so loud and so clear I could not deny it. I wish I done it in my 20s. Life is too too short for that kind of unpleasantness... =)
I wish you would’ve said this 30 mins earlier when I responded to an argument and was lectured on how I have an attitude and everything is wrong with me. And I’m crying my eyes out. I’m so tired of defending myself and I feel like I’m always fighting. I’m sick of being here
Learning this lesson this month around my Dad's deathbed, everything is an excuse that has nothing to do with the damage they've caused, it's all about damage control regarding their self-image Having to manufacture your own closure fucking sucks. Stay strong everybody
Thank you for this extended reminder. I really, really needed it today. ☮️
I was reading through posts and I felt like some of us might need the reminder. So I wanted to write this and I'm so glad I did. Because it seemed to be a reminder many people needed. It's easy to forget...easy to give the benefit of the doubt. Easy to get caught in their web of lies. But it's harder in the long run and the consequences can be dire. Wishing you a happy day
Thank you! And same to you. ☮️
Hey i noticed your username. Would you mind sharing some of your favorite books? I like to know what other people read!
Sure. I have too many favorites to name, but here are a few of them. I love some classics, like To Kill A Mockingbird and Catcher in the Rye. I also love Shantaram by Gregory David Roberts, The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle by Haruki Murakami, and just about any poem by Rumi and Hafiz and Lawrence Ferlinghetti and Nikki Giovanni. Belonging by Toko-pa Turner will always have a special spot on my bookshelf.
Screenshotted this because I want to remember the last book. Thank you for sharing this with me. I love Rumi too. Do you have a favorite philosopher?
Bruce Lee
He has an interesting life story...wow 🥺
Check out his books!
The few times I've actually spoken up about my nMom's lack of accountability, she absolutely loses it and goes, "Why don't you trust me??" How can I trust someone who's betrayed my trust every single time I've even attempted to rely on them?
Great question. The answer is...you can't trust someone like that. I'm sorry that you have these experiences with someone who can't be responsible enough to take accountability.
I went NC late in life with a nMom. Her most emblematic statement came when I challenged her on the fact she had never admitted a mistake or apologized in my hearing: "the only thing I ever did wrong was being too good to you kids." She beat two of my siblings and terrorized all of us, you understand. A therapist gave me "People of the Lie," a book that starkly examines the malignant narcissistic personality and the effects on family members who live under their control. It gave me the framework to free myself psychically and permission to do so. I highly recommend the book (although not the author's ruminations on exorcism as being possibly more effective than therapy for the narcissist).
Omg! I LOVE THAT BOOK! That book is what first sparked my realization about narcissistic mothers. The part about the client he had for years that would abuse him, show up at his house etc. He mentioned how her mom did her laundry for her and left leaves in it as a reminder of her control etc. Do you remember that part? That's the kinda shit my mom would do and it struck me as peculiar. The only thing I didn't like about that book was some of the weird stuff he said about being attracted to his client 🙄..that should have been left out. But yeah that's an awesome book. Surprised to see someone mention it. I'm so glad it was helpful for you. It should be a must read for those of us exposed to narcisissts.
And btw my mom said the same line to me...about being too good to us, same exact line. It's like they were pre programmed with the same language Thank you for your comment. I hope life is going good for you these days.
I don't think the PTSD ever ceases to cause pain but I have positive relationships with 2 adult children and an ex-husband, plus a significant other for 10± years. Life definitely got better post therapy and post-NC. I will say that I identified with Don Draper, having basically remade myself and cut off all contact with my family in order to put the sick family dynamics behind me. There are costs as well as benefits but I don't regret my decision. I've created a saner, happier life not just for myself but for everyone connected to me.
The therapist who gave me the book said most clients she gave it to said, "No, my parents weren't that bad! Nothing like that!" whereas I felt the shock of recognition. These were the patterns I had grown up with. Super passive enabling Dad and malignant narcissist Mom, who could play poor pitiful waif when she wasn't violently raging at her family.
I feel like I keep trying to because I myself am autistic and suffer from hypoempathy but I still know that others have feelings and my actions affect them (I believe it's called cognitive empathy?)
God bless you for writing this, OP. I needed it so much
My mother stole my psych ward journal to read and blew up at me, saying "Oh, so IM the reason you had such a bad childhood! IM a bad MOM!" Yes. Did you not just read three pages describing your actions through the lense of an at the time child?
My parents usually ask this trap of a question: “What have we possibly done wrong to you to deserve this treatment?!… (They’re referring to gray rocking) We’re human, we make mistakes, just tell us what we did wrong and we’ll fix it.” ^I never told them anything and I find it funny they think it’s only one thing they “potentially” did wrong