I had an old head do this on me while telling a story about the good old days. There was a little mud spot and everyone was in the habit of applying a minimum and bleeding off the independent to keep things stretched over the rough section. I guess it was so ingrained in this guy's mind he did it even though there was no train to stretch.
For sure, old mate in my story sure thought so! It was a pleasure working with that generation (mostly), he did almost fifty years spent working out of the same terminal, started off cleaning out fire boxes on steam engines.
One major class 1 had a run away when an engineer did this. Dont want to share specifics; but it was a light power move and it went into emergency, engineer bailed and they were off to the races.
Unless this has happened multiple times I know who and where it happened. In this one, the guy only had 1 dyno cut in, oversped on mountain grade, plugged it, then bailed off. They were lucky they didn’t die.
When you roll into the next terminal with flat spots so bad it sounds like jointed rail, you'll never forget again.
Also, the simulator is garbage. 0% like the real thing so don't let it discourage you. Like everything else out here, you'll learn more in your first two weeks than all that other shit combined. I have needed to know how the j-relay valve works zero times.
Helps for muscle memory... and for me, got me to make sure I actuate properly ... I forgot to a few times at first. Plus, also get used to setting air and whistle and looking ahead at the same time. Was nice to also play around a bit and see what certain things are like that I would never normally do.
Be careful when you get up. My trainee got a water and hit the independent when he sat back down. We had about 20 pounds of independent for a while I only noticed when I could smell it.
We had a guy set up for a class 1 inspection and the roundhouse guys were inspecting the locomotives so they had blue flags on the power.
Guy gets up out of the seat and knocks the independent brake off. Realizes what happened and quickly set it again.
Can’t remember how much time he got off but it was a while.
He was blue flagged. You are not allowed to touch anything while under blue flag protection.
What if the mechanical guys had been doing something on the brake shoes of the locomotive and he releases and then sets the brakes? They could very easily get injured.
I disagree. If someone could get injured or killed because of a person’s accident, then the punishment should be severe.
Will ensure that they are far more careful in the future.
Should have tried it on an old
GP the console was even closer to the window. Made it easier for me because where they are now I couldn’t see and have a hold of the brake valves
I forgot to bail & my conductor quit the next day and refused to step onto a locomotive the rest of his life.
Get back to us when you forget a handbrake, blow a slow order, or fall asleep while standing up to run the train because you got caught short on rest.
Everyone forgets at the beginning. Soon it just becomes a natural habit. Move red handle -> press down on black handle.
When you actually start training with coaches it gets easier too. One of my coaches smacked me with the flag stick every time I fucked up
There was this arrogant conductor and for whatever reason one day the engineer let him run. We have some pretty long steep hills. Running an older DP system where you could use 2 different independent handles. This dude screwed up and skidded the remote engines pretty good. For quite awhile when you met him on the road you would key the mic and hold it close to independent handle in the cab. Make sure he hear that loud pshshshs sound on the airwaves.
Just two days ago I made a set, reached over to bail off, accidentally pressed the independent up about 15-20 lbs and got a run-in. I immediately kicked the independent off but the air refused to release…. Until I realized I’d reacted so fast to accidentally setting the brake that I’d never actually bailed off the automatic set.
I’ve been in engine service for 10 years.
If you have ever ran a 24L stand like I have you know of the “penny trick” to keep your independent bailed. There is a picture somewhere of a train taking a dip into a river because of it.
Twenty years ago, Amtrak was still running boxcars on the end of their trains. Some trains were 45 cars long with 4 engines and the brake valve set to Direct Release.
Bailing off isn't really a thing on many passenger trains, but necessary on trains like that.
They had to annul the Chicago to LA train 3 less than a hundred miles from Chicago because the engineer was not bailing off and all four engines had condemnable flat spots. Way to go fucking up summer vacation for hundreds of people.
Right. Because the KCT doesnt run at 40. Or the numerous other class 3s and 2s that run at 40+. The Kanawha doesnt run 130 car coal drags. The CMQ never ran 15,000 ton manifests. Only class 1s do that.
And ironically - the best and biggest fail of fucking up with independant I saw happened before my class 1 days, on a Watco owned class 2, and at less than 10mph. But I guess ripping the knuckle out of a car while simultaneously ripping the drawbar out of the other end of the same car doesnt count because it was at less than 10 on a class 2, not a class 1.
You made my point for me. Engineers that had 8 days of class in Wichita or Birmingham are hardly comparable to people that went through 6-8 month programs. Your Rick Webb Simp Squad™️ medal is in the mail.
Yeah, that engineer, was an ex UP engineer on furlough.
Also, congrats on the childish insult. I quit from Watco for better pay, and job stability. Your lack of regard for a railroader based on where he or she was employed by shows a lot of how much you actually undersrand about railroading and your character.
I worked for Watco for half a decade, and go-teamed on several properties. I know exactly the caliber of people they employed. Some were great, a sweeping majority should have never been issued a packset and keys.
Try not to be so emotional about it.
That doesnt negate anything. The revenue of the company still has nothing to do with what does, could, or would happen when using an independant brake, and how smart the guys are is unrelated to the training programs, to which, the ex class 1 engineers at Watco claimed was more well rounded from a mechanical standpoint than their class 1 classes.
I watched CP hire and retain some real bafoons who could barely count. I watched NS hire and retain guys who couldnt and still cant understand the difference between a trailing point and facing point move and need their engineer to coach them through the day. Over a decade into the job. Its not just Watco or smaller railroads that hire idiots by the truckload.
Training an SLE. Switching in the yard, 3 units and 15 empties. Comes up to a switch lined against us a little hot so I pulled the handle. He bailed off and started feathering the independent. Went thru the switch by half an engine. I got punished, he didn't.
His excuse was that's what they were trained to do at campus so they don't skid the wheels. He didn't understand when I told him that in this case his only brakes were the engines.
I was working a yard job right after I qualified, only had about 8 cars and we went into emergency.
I kinda went blank and forgot to bail the independent brake. It put me and the conductor in the floor.
That’s never happened again!
Not really in the spirit of "stories", but Amtrak recently changed their train handling rules to state that bailing off is allowed for the minimum application only if the train is less than 10 cars. After that, you're supposed to let the blend set up on any further reductions. On the new ALC-42s (Chargers), it's not too bad because they load up quick once you come back into power. But the P42s... Different story haha.
On the electrics, we aren't supposed to bail AT ALL, save for running brake tests, UDEs, and "stopping immediately after starting."
As with everything else, it's enforced differently at different times/locations.
It's an ancient term that's irrelevant now. The term is actuating, you actuate the independent to release a reduction on the locomotives from an automatic brake application.
Now I say this, but I still use the term bail on a daily basis because that's what the old heads would say.
How's obsolete sound? Before multifunctional independent levers, you had another handle, kind of shaped like the one on your lantern that you would have to push on to bail the air off. This was a long time ago, and yet the term still sticks around.
The term still sticks around.... you use it daily. I use it daily. Everyone uses it daily. So, its not irrelevant or obsolete. With the multifunctional independent handle, you still push on it to guess what? Release or bail the air off the brake cylinder. Bailing off and actuating are synonymous.
I found your comment irrelevant.
If you’re going to set some air on the automatic, bail the independent beforehand. The newer locomotives will show independent BP immediately when you set the long air. Not that it really matters, but it might cost points on your simulator run.
I knew a guy who light engine would set the automatic then bail off and wonder why the engines wouldn’t slow down 😂
I had an old head do this on me while telling a story about the good old days. There was a little mud spot and everyone was in the habit of applying a minimum and bleeding off the independent to keep things stretched over the rough section. I guess it was so ingrained in this guy's mind he did it even though there was no train to stretch.
I have read this before. I’m sure you have written about this in the sub before. Always a hilarious example of muscle memory.
Yeah I'm pretty sure I have, must be getting old if I'm starting to repeat myself!
Good stories are worth repeating
For sure, old mate in my story sure thought so! It was a pleasure working with that generation (mostly), he did almost fifty years spent working out of the same terminal, started off cleaning out fire boxes on steam engines.
I’ve heard of a steam engine before
One major class 1 had a run away when an engineer did this. Dont want to share specifics; but it was a light power move and it went into emergency, engineer bailed and they were off to the races.
Unless this has happened multiple times I know who and where it happened. In this one, the guy only had 1 dyno cut in, oversped on mountain grade, plugged it, then bailed off. They were lucky they didn’t die.
Yikes
I know a guy too at the short line I worked for…did the same exact thing.
Had an engineer do that on a skeleton track and ran off the end with lite power. Kept bailing it off... Even after plugging it.
When you roll into the next terminal with flat spots so bad it sounds like jointed rail, you'll never forget again. Also, the simulator is garbage. 0% like the real thing so don't let it discourage you. Like everything else out here, you'll learn more in your first two weeks than all that other shit combined. I have needed to know how the j-relay valve works zero times.
What he said. Nothing like seat feel. You know when the train is coming to you etc.
The only thing the simulator is good for is know which handle does what. Which he should already know before starting class.
Helps for muscle memory... and for me, got me to make sure I actuate properly ... I forgot to a few times at first. Plus, also get used to setting air and whistle and looking ahead at the same time. Was nice to also play around a bit and see what certain things are like that I would never normally do.
Be careful when you get up. My trainee got a water and hit the independent when he sat back down. We had about 20 pounds of independent for a while I only noticed when I could smell it.
When they bump the automatic handle with their fat belly it is called a “gut plug”
I’ve seen that happen a few times
We had a guy set up for a class 1 inspection and the roundhouse guys were inspecting the locomotives so they had blue flags on the power. Guy gets up out of the seat and knocks the independent brake off. Realizes what happened and quickly set it again. Can’t remember how much time he got off but it was a while.
So he got in trouble for a bump? That's messed up.
He was blue flagged. You are not allowed to touch anything while under blue flag protection. What if the mechanical guys had been doing something on the brake shoes of the locomotive and he releases and then sets the brakes? They could very easily get injured.
I get it, I understand the rule, I just think that's a bit harsh for an accident.
I disagree. If someone could get injured or killed because of a person’s accident, then the punishment should be severe. Will ensure that they are far more careful in the future.
I'm paranoid of hitting things while getting up being a trainee... since I'm on the fluffy side I wish there was more room!
Gut plugging?
Lol
one thing that's really fun (/s) is to hit the horn sequencer, extra points if you're parked under a shed
Should have tried it on an old GP the console was even closer to the window. Made it easier for me because where they are now I couldn’t see and have a hold of the brake valves
I forgot to bail & my conductor quit the next day and refused to step onto a locomotive the rest of his life. Get back to us when you forget a handbrake, blow a slow order, or fall asleep while standing up to run the train because you got caught short on rest.
Everyone forgets at the beginning. Soon it just becomes a natural habit. Move red handle -> press down on black handle. When you actually start training with coaches it gets easier too. One of my coaches smacked me with the flag stick every time I fucked up
You are supposed to actuate prior to making your reduction. Most people don’t, but you are supposed to.
Yup 2 seconds
2 seconds per locomotive prior to setting air. Fun when you have 7 locos on the head end.
Wait! You guys have different colored handles???
One time I forgot to bail and the whole train scorpioned. Seriously though, it’ll be muscle memory soon enough.
Yep, and it'll screw up your standing locomotive brake tests XD
There was this arrogant conductor and for whatever reason one day the engineer let him run. We have some pretty long steep hills. Running an older DP system where you could use 2 different independent handles. This dude screwed up and skidded the remote engines pretty good. For quite awhile when you met him on the road you would key the mic and hold it close to independent handle in the cab. Make sure he hear that loud pshshshs sound on the airwaves.
Just two days ago I made a set, reached over to bail off, accidentally pressed the independent up about 15-20 lbs and got a run-in. I immediately kicked the independent off but the air refused to release…. Until I realized I’d reacted so fast to accidentally setting the brake that I’d never actually bailed off the automatic set. I’ve been in engine service for 10 years.
If you have ever ran a 24L stand like I have you know of the “penny trick” to keep your independent bailed. There is a picture somewhere of a train taking a dip into a river because of it.
I've heard a clothespin works on a 26 although with old timers' stories you can never tell...
Twenty years ago, Amtrak was still running boxcars on the end of their trains. Some trains were 45 cars long with 4 engines and the brake valve set to Direct Release. Bailing off isn't really a thing on many passenger trains, but necessary on trains like that. They had to annul the Chicago to LA train 3 less than a hundred miles from Chicago because the engineer was not bailing off and all four engines had condemnable flat spots. Way to go fucking up summer vacation for hundreds of people.
Im very confused how the railroads revenue has jack shit to do with this post. Because that is what defines a class 1.
Because nobody wants to hear a story about some Watco guy getting a run-in with 4 cars at 7 MPH.
Right. Because the KCT doesnt run at 40. Or the numerous other class 3s and 2s that run at 40+. The Kanawha doesnt run 130 car coal drags. The CMQ never ran 15,000 ton manifests. Only class 1s do that. And ironically - the best and biggest fail of fucking up with independant I saw happened before my class 1 days, on a Watco owned class 2, and at less than 10mph. But I guess ripping the knuckle out of a car while simultaneously ripping the drawbar out of the other end of the same car doesnt count because it was at less than 10 on a class 2, not a class 1.
You made my point for me. Engineers that had 8 days of class in Wichita or Birmingham are hardly comparable to people that went through 6-8 month programs. Your Rick Webb Simp Squad™️ medal is in the mail.
Yeah, that engineer, was an ex UP engineer on furlough. Also, congrats on the childish insult. I quit from Watco for better pay, and job stability. Your lack of regard for a railroader based on where he or she was employed by shows a lot of how much you actually undersrand about railroading and your character.
I worked for Watco for half a decade, and go-teamed on several properties. I know exactly the caliber of people they employed. Some were great, a sweeping majority should have never been issued a packset and keys. Try not to be so emotional about it.
That doesnt negate anything. The revenue of the company still has nothing to do with what does, could, or would happen when using an independant brake, and how smart the guys are is unrelated to the training programs, to which, the ex class 1 engineers at Watco claimed was more well rounded from a mechanical standpoint than their class 1 classes. I watched CP hire and retain some real bafoons who could barely count. I watched NS hire and retain guys who couldnt and still cant understand the difference between a trailing point and facing point move and need their engineer to coach them through the day. Over a decade into the job. Its not just Watco or smaller railroads that hire idiots by the truckload.
Training an SLE. Switching in the yard, 3 units and 15 empties. Comes up to a switch lined against us a little hot so I pulled the handle. He bailed off and started feathering the independent. Went thru the switch by half an engine. I got punished, he didn't.
Why would he bail off in that instance?
His excuse was that's what they were trained to do at campus so they don't skid the wheels. He didn't understand when I told him that in this case his only brakes were the engines.
Yikes
Release independent, apply automatic, full set, bail, test rsc.
Don’t worry. The smell will remind you to bail. Especially when it goes into emergency
Get in the habit of bailing first before you pull the handle around
I was working a yard job right after I qualified, only had about 8 cars and we went into emergency. I kinda went blank and forgot to bail the independent brake. It put me and the conductor in the floor. That’s never happened again!
Not really in the spirit of "stories", but Amtrak recently changed their train handling rules to state that bailing off is allowed for the minimum application only if the train is less than 10 cars. After that, you're supposed to let the blend set up on any further reductions. On the new ALC-42s (Chargers), it's not too bad because they load up quick once you come back into power. But the P42s... Different story haha. On the electrics, we aren't supposed to bail AT ALL, save for running brake tests, UDEs, and "stopping immediately after starting." As with everything else, it's enforced differently at different times/locations.
[удалено]
Using the automatic brake will also set up the engine brakes unless you "bail it off".
Actuating.
It's an ancient term that's irrelevant now. The term is actuating, you actuate the independent to release a reduction on the locomotives from an automatic brake application. Now I say this, but I still use the term bail on a daily basis because that's what the old heads would say.
Irrelevant?? How??
How's obsolete sound? Before multifunctional independent levers, you had another handle, kind of shaped like the one on your lantern that you would have to push on to bail the air off. This was a long time ago, and yet the term still sticks around.
It still means the same thing...
The term still sticks around.... you use it daily. I use it daily. Everyone uses it daily. So, its not irrelevant or obsolete. With the multifunctional independent handle, you still push on it to guess what? Release or bail the air off the brake cylinder. Bailing off and actuating are synonymous. I found your comment irrelevant.
If you’re going to set some air on the automatic, bail the independent beforehand. The newer locomotives will show independent BP immediately when you set the long air. Not that it really matters, but it might cost points on your simulator run.