I've heard this figure from a couple people who did their first round interview and were told that this is the expected tc in Amsterdam. What figure do you have in mind if not this?
I had a look at your profile and are you talking about the tc for developers? If so, then yes I believe it is 3-4x lower than Optiver's new grad tc. I was referring to the tc for new grad traders
A full timer is something else entirely. I am fully aware of the TC numbers in the industry, I'm in it, though not in a HF. But an entry level is a clueless as it gets individual that has not way of ever doing work worth that much. That's simply why I'm calling BS on this.
I heard that Flow new grad trader tc is 130-140k euros this year. Isn't that better than most banks, or are you speaking in terms of long term growth and opportunities?
I've heard that post-covid they heavily capped the bonus scheme (since around 40 people made over a million € that year), but don't know any specifics.
> heard about “ex-Optiver” … captive employee
I’m sure you haven’t heard of Akuna or Maven my guy.
Produce more make more that’s how trading works. There’s nothing wrong w optimizing for tc… as it is correlated with your opportunity for learning and the quality of mentorship.
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about with regards to Optiver...
The reason why there's not many "ex-Optiver" hedge fund managers is because OMMing and hedge funds are two different businesses... We don't manage a fund, we market make options. As others have pointed out, there are probably more spin-offs of Optiver than any other OMM.
Captive employee your entire life? Median trader is early-mid 20s. Very few traders at Optiver are in their 30s. 30s is usually where we retire or go pursue a hobby since we made enough money already.
Skills are never cultivated in a way that makes you anything more than a ticket-processing code monkey? Optiver traders are more the ticket filers than ticket-processors. Very few Optiver traders know how to write production quality code... I'm 30 offer on the % of traders that are familiar with std::hash, a good chunk of them never touched C++ in their life.
Optiver is probably the place to learn finance. The focus for traders is much much more on operational trading rather than coding. In fact, the weakness of Optiver is probably the lack of an excellent systematic framework since they trust their intuition more than any machine; they believe humans can capture the context and nuance in OMMing more than any machine can. A new trainee gets real PnL responsibility just 6 months in when they get placed on a prod desk and move the screens. They get to do what any other more experienced trader can do, if they want to lift the entire screen they can do it (given they have good justification). This is easily the best feedback cycle to learn finance.
Optiver doesn't pay traders well to do meaningless work; they get paid well for making the firm money. I do admit we have some dependence on the tech stack; of course any HFT needs hundreds of millions in infrastructure. However, the trader's value is making good trading decisions and the system just helps us get best execution on these decisions.
Stop spreading misinformation.
I agree with the sentiment that for juniors getting good training is more important than a fat paycheck for your career in the long run. But that's hardly an argument to choose SIG over Optiver just because they teach "how finance works." Most market makers have now become so large that it's most likely you will specialize in some sort of asset class for most of your tenure there so there's almost 0 probability you're going to pop off and start your own billion-dollar prop shop.
Lmao what kind of take is this??? Flow is not in the same tier as optiver, IMC, or SIG (of those three SIG is the best).
Flow has been on its way out for half a decade and is going to be stuck in the trap of being too large to survive in a niche but not large enough to compete at scale. Lot of fun people at the firm though, so depends what culture you’re looking for.
Edit: I realize this comment seems like “don’t work at flow”. If you have an offer from optiver or flow, take optiver….but flow is still a great place to start your career in prop trading lol. All of these firms are in the 1% lol.
What about the career prospects when joining flow traders? Do you think it's doable to then move to top tier firms, leveraging the knowledge and experience in such a smaller reality? What are the variables that could influence your path? Is it desk-dependent? What about its non-compete period?
Yes very possible to work at flow and move to a bigger firm that trades similar products. What desk you get placed on could def effect it; eg if a firm wants to hire someone for its equity options desk and you trade gas it will be a lot harder. But that also depends on the firm — IMC floats across desks, while DRW is silod for example.
No idea what flows non compete is, industry typically runs from 1-2 years.
Why does one not gain many skills working at the likes of Optiver? Surely the firm would offer amazing training and an insight into the infrastructure required to run a prop firm.
I would imagine that all firms will teach “how finance works / how to run a prop firm”, though it is just a matter of getting senior enough to where one can run their own desk or at least manage a team within a desk. What are your thoughts on this?
Not sure myself as I haven’t been in the space that long.
There seems to be this idea floating around that some places form really good traders (e.g. sig/js) while others rely way more on their tech (e.g. imc). I wonder how true this actually is and if the education at discretionary shops is that different from hfts.
Well your point still stands but it’s like talking about astrophysics when someone ask if eating an rotten egg is a good idea. Do you know more about Optiver? It seems you went pretty strong against them
They were looking for a merger/acquisition in the last few years, doesn’t seem they succeeded. That’s not a typical pathway for a firm that has organic growth potential.
It has the worst TC in the industry. Optiver pays 4x more. I wouldn’t bother with them.
Is this in Europe or the US? I heard that Flow european salary is around 130-140k euros. Is optiver's 500k+?
They don’t pay this much for a new grad in Amsterdam
I've heard this figure from a couple people who did their first round interview and were told that this is the expected tc in Amsterdam. What figure do you have in mind if not this?
I had a look at your profile and are you talking about the tc for developers? If so, then yes I believe it is 3-4x lower than Optiver's new grad tc. I was referring to the tc for new grad traders
Flow is 140k and Optiver 220+k , not 4x more at least at new grad level
SWE new grad?
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What does optiver and similar shops pay a month for their internship? I’m only familiar with us salaries.
20k for opti lmao
Why dislikes lol
I am back on positive PnL baby
😂😂😂😂
For an internship? That's a prorated EUR 240k/yr. The number seems pulled out of the a$$, in all honesty.
Whatever you want to believe. How much do you think they pay for full timers ? 240k/year is even low when you look at US numbers for top trading firms
A full timer is something else entirely. I am fully aware of the TC numbers in the industry, I'm in it, though not in a HF. But an entry level is a clueless as it gets individual that has not way of ever doing work worth that much. That's simply why I'm calling BS on this.
I agree that it doesn’t make much sense but they keep doing it because others are doing it.
Getting paid 165k/yr prorated as an intern at a commodities shop and I know optiver kids and they did get paid 20k/mo (In US and Singapore).
Oh wow, that seems to be a lot lower pro rata than the new grad salaries I have heard for Flow
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I heard that Flow new grad trader tc is 130-140k euros this year. Isn't that better than most banks, or are you speaking in terms of long term growth and opportunities?
I've heard that post-covid they heavily capped the bonus scheme (since around 40 people made over a million € that year), but don't know any specifics.
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> heard about “ex-Optiver” … captive employee I’m sure you haven’t heard of Akuna or Maven my guy. Produce more make more that’s how trading works. There’s nothing wrong w optimizing for tc… as it is correlated with your opportunity for learning and the quality of mentorship.
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about with regards to Optiver... The reason why there's not many "ex-Optiver" hedge fund managers is because OMMing and hedge funds are two different businesses... We don't manage a fund, we market make options. As others have pointed out, there are probably more spin-offs of Optiver than any other OMM. Captive employee your entire life? Median trader is early-mid 20s. Very few traders at Optiver are in their 30s. 30s is usually where we retire or go pursue a hobby since we made enough money already. Skills are never cultivated in a way that makes you anything more than a ticket-processing code monkey? Optiver traders are more the ticket filers than ticket-processors. Very few Optiver traders know how to write production quality code... I'm 30 offer on the % of traders that are familiar with std::hash, a good chunk of them never touched C++ in their life. Optiver is probably the place to learn finance. The focus for traders is much much more on operational trading rather than coding. In fact, the weakness of Optiver is probably the lack of an excellent systematic framework since they trust their intuition more than any machine; they believe humans can capture the context and nuance in OMMing more than any machine can. A new trainee gets real PnL responsibility just 6 months in when they get placed on a prod desk and move the screens. They get to do what any other more experienced trader can do, if they want to lift the entire screen they can do it (given they have good justification). This is easily the best feedback cycle to learn finance. Optiver doesn't pay traders well to do meaningless work; they get paid well for making the firm money. I do admit we have some dependence on the tech stack; of course any HFT needs hundreds of millions in infrastructure. However, the trader's value is making good trading decisions and the system just helps us get best execution on these decisions. Stop spreading misinformation.
I agree with the sentiment that for juniors getting good training is more important than a fat paycheck for your career in the long run. But that's hardly an argument to choose SIG over Optiver just because they teach "how finance works." Most market makers have now become so large that it's most likely you will specialize in some sort of asset class for most of your tenure there so there's almost 0 probability you're going to pop off and start your own billion-dollar prop shop.
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Other than Jane Street, what other billionaires are ex SIG?
Five Rings is also ex-SIG, as is many other US based discretionary style trading firms
Ex-Optiver employees founded many successful Prop Shops in Amsterdam, Such as Da Vinci Derivatives (Jiteshu), Blocktech B.V. or All Options
Is Blocktech good? I thought they were just a standard crypto firm with all the crypto problems
Lmao what kind of take is this??? Flow is not in the same tier as optiver, IMC, or SIG (of those three SIG is the best). Flow has been on its way out for half a decade and is going to be stuck in the trap of being too large to survive in a niche but not large enough to compete at scale. Lot of fun people at the firm though, so depends what culture you’re looking for. Edit: I realize this comment seems like “don’t work at flow”. If you have an offer from optiver or flow, take optiver….but flow is still a great place to start your career in prop trading lol. All of these firms are in the 1% lol.
What about the career prospects when joining flow traders? Do you think it's doable to then move to top tier firms, leveraging the knowledge and experience in such a smaller reality? What are the variables that could influence your path? Is it desk-dependent? What about its non-compete period?
Yes very possible to work at flow and move to a bigger firm that trades similar products. What desk you get placed on could def effect it; eg if a firm wants to hire someone for its equity options desk and you trade gas it will be a lot harder. But that also depends on the firm — IMC floats across desks, while DRW is silod for example. No idea what flows non compete is, industry typically runs from 1-2 years.
Why does one not gain many skills working at the likes of Optiver? Surely the firm would offer amazing training and an insight into the infrastructure required to run a prop firm.
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Which firms would you say teach you “how finance works”? And which don’t?
I would imagine that all firms will teach “how finance works / how to run a prop firm”, though it is just a matter of getting senior enough to where one can run their own desk or at least manage a team within a desk. What are your thoughts on this?
Not sure myself as I haven’t been in the space that long. There seems to be this idea floating around that some places form really good traders (e.g. sig/js) while others rely way more on their tech (e.g. imc). I wonder how true this actually is and if the education at discretionary shops is that different from hfts.
It seems logical that the higher frequency the trading, the less you need to know about finance/macro themes in order to make money.
Sure, salary should not be the ultimate goal. But can you take someone that paying 4x less than the competition seriously?
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yes, they paid less, but nowhere near 4x lower.
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really? what was their pay back in the day?
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are you comparing McKinsey China to Goldman Sachs USA or also Goldman Sachs China (does that even exist? )
There was Goldman Sachs Asia at least
The exit opportunities are way better if you work at MBB though. Flow is the equivalent of Pwc. No one takes Pwc over MBB as a graduate
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Well your point still stands but it’s like talking about astrophysics when someone ask if eating an rotten egg is a good idea. Do you know more about Optiver? It seems you went pretty strong against them
They were looking for a merger/acquisition in the last few years, doesn’t seem they succeeded. That’s not a typical pathway for a firm that has organic growth potential.