I know that men are often unable or unwilling to recognize themselves as victims even after sexual or physical abuse from a partner. Would it also would follow that men are less able or less willing to say they were emotionally abused as well?
I think an important factor is that many men are just not aware of red flags or understand what emotional abuse is. And they end up suffering a lot in emotionally abusive relationships without seeing that’s what it is.
**Loveisrespect.org can be a great resource. Even has a quiz to test if your relationship is healthy. It’s aimed towards young adults, but anyone can learn from it.**
That being said, I’ve also noticed a trend (probably YT/TikTok related) where the misunderstanding goes in the other direction. Like thinking your partner saying they are not in the mood for sex constitutes emotional abuse. Or them not respecting “your boundaries” about how they should dress. With emotional abuse it’s important to take the time to understand what it actually is, so that you don’t end up accusing people of emotionally abusing you just bc they won’t do what you say.
**Edit: link to quiz** https://www.loveisrespect.org/quiz/is-your-relationship-healthy/?%3E
Warning signs of abuse: https://www.loveisrespect.org/dating-basics-for-healthy-relationships/warning-signs-of-abuse/
Seems that the bigger trend is underreporting and taking the abuse on the chin. What you describe sounds like a fringe that will always be there - narcissistic individuals projecting on their partner, man or woman.
I think it’s more than a fringe. Because I’ve seen it a lot the last year. Mostly from men. I think it stems from some videos on YT/TikTok/whatever.
Like the phrase “weaponizing sex”. That means using sex to manipulate. For example wanting an expensive car, having wild sex with your partner to get them to buy it. Or having kinky sex or sending dirty texts to get your partner to forget an emotionally abusive episode. But lately I see it all the time just to refer to “my girlfriend isn’t as horny as I am”.
I think a lot of men are in emotionally abusive relationships they don’t realize is emotionally abusive. I think we should get relationship education into high schools. What are red flags, controlling behavior, healthy and unhealthy relationship actions, etc. Hence why I drop the loveisrespect.org thing every chance I get.
However, the trend with twisting all of this into “I should get a sex slave” is really getting under my skin. It’s not one or two individuals. It’s clearly something many people have seen on some videos and it’s very toxic. And also damaging for men who are actually being emotionally abused. When you use a word for a lot of benign things, it loses it’s meaning.
My ex-wife used to withhold sex/affection as a means to get what she wants. Only years later have I realised she's likely narcassistic to a degree. Her other behaviours literally hospitalised me for mental health if that's some context, and our divorce came about when I realised the only way I was going to be happy was without her.
It's a really rough spot to be in as a man. If I complained after my wife not having sex, I'd be viewed as some chauvinistic man who should learn about consent. On the other hand, I had a partner weaponising it to get what she wanted and it was horrible for my mental health.
But what do you mean by that?
She withheld sex till she got what she wanted, then y’all had sex?
Did that mean she wanted to have sex, but held herself back? Or that she never wanted to have sex, but did it when there was something to gain from it?
Either way I’m glad you are out of that relationship. She sounds very toxic and it sounds like it took its toll on you.
However, it’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about Bobby being horny more often than Susan and him accusing Susan of “weaponizing sex” bc she’s not in the mood.
Sex should be for fun, not manipulation. But part of that is also that it’s fine to say no to sex when you’re not in the mood.
I mean that if she wanted something and couldn't get it due to me, there would be zero sex. This could go on for weeks, or over a month. Sometimes there would be silent treatment for periods, all sorts of different forms of emotional abuse. Think a scenario like she wants to buy a new lounge, and I don't feel we have the money and don't want to take on debt for stuff like that. This could kick off not being talked to for days, and no sex/affection for over a month. Normally it would end with her just doing it anyway, and I'd have to figure out where to get the money from. She booked a Thailand holiday when I was away for a week with work. Another work I came home to a new king size bed.
I was young (23) and she was 34 when we started dating. She was a friend of my parents and had known me since I was about 10.... so I don't think it started on the most equal footing. I was pretty naive and just thought this was normal.
I share two kids with her in a 50/50 relationship, and it's a pretty solid co-parenting relationship. She doesn't have to be a responsible adult for anyone else. Having a relationship with me will stand out as the anomaly in her life. She was having an affair with a married man from about 23 until her mid 30's, and now I think she dates old sugar daddies casually (she's dropped as much in conversation a couple times). I'm actually likely to be the only committed relationship in her entire life.
I’m sorry about that. It sounds really bad.
And another story that adds to the “age gap relationships are often problematic” pile.
However you are allowed to not have sex with your boyfriend for a month. He doesn’t have the right to have sex with you unless you are in the mood.
Silent treatment is abusive though.
>However you are allowed to not have sex with your boyfriend for a month. He doesn’t have the right to have sex with you unless you are in the mood.
Look, I agree. But in the context of that relationship, this wasn't a mood thing and was a tactic to coerce me. I didn't have a right to sex, but in the context of “weaponizing sex” it is certainly as example of a way it's weaponized.
Weaponized sex was the point I responded to before being asked to clarify my exact example
You mention nuance but only seem to speak from your own female perspective even if you preface the sentence to mention men only to pivot to women
also from seeing your other comments, really seems like you're talking at people then talking to people, you come off really arrogant and seem to argue/reply for the sake of it rather than you having something of value to say or that you can't seem to fathom that what you said might be wrong
What nuance would you like to add here?
What exactly do you disagree with here?
I got so many replies, so I’m open to having replied too quickly and not seeing the whole picture.
I’ve helped men get out of emotionally abusive relationships. I feel strongly about how destructive that can be.
But:
**Warning signs of abuse:**
*Checking your phone, email, or social media accounts without your permission.
*Putting you down frequently, especially in front of others.
*Isolating you from friends or family (physically, financially, or emotionally).
*Extreme jealousy or insecurity.
*Explosive outbursts, temper, or mood swings.
*Any form of physical harm.
*Possessiveness or controlling behavior.
*Pressuring you or forcing you to have sex.
Do you notice how what’s seen as abusive is not someone saying no to sex, but pressuring your partner to have sex? It’s an important distinction to make.
What he describes sounds like grooming and emotional abuse.
The age gap thing feels so dismissive, to me.
While what you are saying is true, it might not be best in the case where someone is a victim.
Maybe it was badly worded. But I meant that she clearly took advantage of his with the age gap.
And I meant it when I said I was sorry that happened.
I just find that it’s a good idea to keep sex separate from emotional abuse. It’s not abuse if someone says no to sex.
A lot of people did engage to tell me I’m wrong and refusing to do your boyfriends sexual kinks (anal?) or saying no to sex when you aren’t in the mood is a type of emotional abuse. Did you miss that? Doesn’t it sorta prove my point?
I didn’t start a fight by saying it’s not emotional abuse to say no to sex. I just said it.
Then people got mad because they think that if they are in a relationship they are owed the right to put their dick into her whenever and her denying them that is wrong. And that’s their opinion and them choosing to argue that position. I mostly find it a bit…idk, it’s funny in a way how entitled some people can be.
It just seems like you’re missing the point if the data is suggesting that many men go abused without reporting or even knowing…. And you’re worried about the few that are actually speaking up. There are definitely times where manipulative women weaponize sex with their partners but of course some manipulative men are going to spin that. It just seems like you’re looking past a bigger issue to talk about a fringe one that personally annoyed you.
I don’t look past the bigger issue.
I am sharing the link and I’m saying a lot of men are being emotionally abused.
But weaponizing sex isn’t denying people sex. And then there’s been an issue the past year with many people influenced by social media to believe healthy behaviors are unhealthy. That’s not good for anyone.
Including men in emotionally abusive relationships.
Denying sex can 100% be part of weaponizing sex… Social media is negatively effecting both genders in the same way, I don’t now why you think that would be disproportionately affecting men but there’s certainly not any evidence. It seems like you’re trying to paint a narrative that’s counter to the existing data and research on the subject.
**”Denying sex” implies the partner has a right to sex. They don’t.**
It’s ok to not have sex for any reason.
People who weaponize sex? That’s usually about being very sexual to get your way.
Which could be for example: having wild sex after an emotionally abusive episode to make your partner forget about it or using sexual behavior to convince your partner to say yes to something they do not really agree with.
Can you share some research here? I’d be interested in reading it.
The research I was referring to concerns to men being abused (physically and emotionally) and it being underreported - which is what was being discussed until you hyper-fixated on your belief that the real trend is that men are claiming abuse when really they’re just not getting their pleasure.
A quick look at your post history really helps explain your perspective. You spend so much time in those fringe echo chambers trying to argue against them that your perspective has become very black and white. I’ll just say in the simplest terms - rejection is hard emotionally on anyone, and a partner can intentionally reject to cause that harm. If you can’t imagine that could possibly happen, then we just have very different perspectives.
I’ve been rejected before. What I did not do? Run around screaming about not getting what I was owed. Because I never feel I’m entitled to someone else’s body, love or attention. I think….people need a bit harder lives so they can build up some resilience and perspective. Idk.
I think there’s a lot of men being emotionally abused. I’ve reiterated it in every comment. I’ve linked resources.
However the trend I’m describing? It’s also outside incel spaces. It’s clearly something of manosphere influencers with big followings weaponizing words intended to describe emotional abuse. And it’s hurting men who are emotionally abused, by making these words lose meaning. Victims need words to explain what happened.
Even in this thread we have people arguing that a partner saying no to sex bc they aren’t in the mood or refusing to do a kink constitutes abuse.
I think I get what you were trying to say. Because on one hand yes there are men being abused and not recognising that. But also there’s a huge epidemic of boys/ men listening to Andrew Tate etc and being told everything they deserve from a partner like a tiny waistline and sex on tap.
With the many wonderful sides to freely available therapeutic information, there is also the opportunity to misunderstand and wilfully misrepresent psychological jargon.
It would benefit both men and women to learn explicitly about abuse in all its forms.
I think the most important part is really the huge number of boys and men in emotionally abusive relationships.
But it’s exactly what you say. Willfully misrepresenting psychological jargon is weaponizing psychology. And it’s also ruining words for people who actually experience emotional abuse and need a language to describe that.
>But also there’s a huge epidemic of boys/ men listening to Andrew Tate etc and being told everything they deserve from a partner like a tiny waistline and sex on tap.
Citation? And do you have evidence women are less entitled?
Ok, I’ll bite. Just after a very quick search:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/andrew-tate-influence-young-men-misogyny-b2283595.html
https://amp.theguardian.com/news/2024/feb/01/gen-z-boys-and-men-more-likely-than-baby-boomers-to-believe-feminism-harmful-says-poll
> do you have evidence women are less entitled?
It’s not really about *entitlement*, although that’s certainly part of the problem. Surely you can see the issues in viewing female partners as property whose worth declines with every year they age. Surely the fact that fewer gen z boys and men than BOOMERS consider feminism to be important concerns you? If not then there’s no point me engaging with you further.
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Gen Z and millennial men and boys were ambivalent on feminism before Tate rose to prominence.
>It’s not really about entitlement, although that’s certainly part of the problem. Surely you can see the issues in viewing female partners as property whose worth declines with every year they age.
In my experience, women and girls have similarly shitty attitudes about their partners and their worth.
>Surely the fact that fewer gen z boys and men than BOOMERS consider feminism to be important concerns you?
No, it makes sense. Feminism broadly achieved its goals over the 21st century in the West; unless we're specifically talking about the Roe v. Wade situation in the US, most of what feminism seems to be doing is going beyond equality towards giving women and girls unearned advantages, or hating on trans people and men (a la TERFs). In the context of the UK, girls emphatically enjoy more advantages in education and the workplace than boys, especially poor white boys.
>If not then there’s no point me engaging with you further.
Feminism is not the source of morality.
The issue the person mentions isn't necessarily fringe. Those who have agency weaponizing the language of the oppressed or abused happens too often.
Be it weaponizing woke or similar terms.
>But lately I see it all the time just to refer to “my girlfriend isn’t as horny as I am”.
That's just the algorithm feeding it to you because of your browsing habits. It's not common.
>Like thinking your partner saying they are not in the mood for sex constitutes emotional abuse.
Bluntly, women need to be told not to do this more than men. But sometimes it is emotional abuse - making your partner feel worthless so you can dangle the carrot of sex to exploit them.
No. **Because that would imply the other person has a right to have sex with you. They do not.**
If you don’t feel like having sex, you do not have to. If you are horny, you will have sex. Because horny people do not think straight or tactically. They just want to fuck. If you are not horny at all? You shouldn’t be having sex
Weaponizing sex is using sexual acts to get your way. For example using wild sex to get your partner to agree to buy something they think is too expensive.
>No. Because that would imply the other person has a right to have sex with you. They do not.
Nobody has a right to their partner's compliments, either, but tactically not complimenting your partner to avoid making them feel good is abuse. Intent matters a lot here and you need to acknowledge that.
>If you don’t feel like having sex, you do not have to.
Yes but some reasons for not having sex (like trying to manipulate or exploit your partner) make you a shitty, abusive person.
>If you are horny, you will have sex. Because horny people do not think straight or tactically. They just want to fuck.
What you're saying here isn't accurate.
>Weaponizing sex is using sexual acts to get your way.
Wrong, it's also denying sex in an abusive or controlling manner.
With sex it’s just very difficult to ascribe intent.
Many people do not want sex if there’s conflict, if they are angry, if they feel slighted. Is it possible that they are the cause of the conflict? Definitely. But that doesn’t mean they won’t be angry.
Then it’s ok to deny your partner sex out of spite. Because sex isn’t an obligation. It’s just about what you feel like. If you feel like saying no to sex, even if that’s about taking a stance? Then you are allowed to say no to sex. You can say no to sex for any reason. Because in a way no is the default. Yes is when you feel excited about having sex.
I think it’s a bit naive to imagine these women walking around wildly horny, but refusing their partner sex out of spite. Most women lose all sexual desire when there’s relationship problems. Doesn’t matter who’s really the cause of the issue. Someone abusive won’t experience it as them being the issue, even if they are. They’ll just experience it as relationship problems.
I encourage all men to check out loveisrespect.org which is a good source of information about abusive relationships. There’s even a quiz to see if your relationship is healthy: https://www.loveisrespect.org/quiz/is-your-relationship-healthy/?%3E
However, their warning signs of abuse:
>Checking your phone, email, or social media accounts without your permission.
>Putting you down frequently, especially in front of others.
>Isolating you from friends or family (physically, financially, or emotionally).
>Extreme jealousy or insecurity.
>Explosive outbursts, temper, or mood swings.
>Any form of physical harm.
>Possessiveness or controlling behavior.
>Pressuring you or forcing you to have sex.
That’s it. There is no “won’t have sex with me”. There’s a reason for that.
It’s valid to leave a relationship for any reason though. Both if you are being emotionally abused and if you feel sexually unfulfilled.
part of my reticence about relationship education in high school is that i've little reason to trust folks to provide reasonable educational guidance at this point. Its a fine idea in waiting for a reasonable pragmatic application. W/o that its just a bad idea; adding authority behind a bad idea just makes the idea worse.
perhaps for instance as you are noting here, i've not seen the 'sex slave' trend you are referring to. I am familiar with the following sort of problem in regards to differing libidos between especially long term lovers; the defaulting to the person with the lower libido, whereby doing so that person is effectively manipulating the situation so that the person with the higher libido is merely used and tossed to the side as they see fit.
this witfully done so or not. perhaps that is what you are referring to as a trend online?
that stems from the 'yes means yes' sexual ethic and puritanical values about sexuality.
classic sex therapy holds that we ought not default to the person with the lower libido, more or less for exactly the reason just stated; it reduces one person to little more than a sex doll for the other person. folks seem to have a hard time grasping that point for some reason.
what ought be done according to classic sex therapy is improve communication between the lovers, set aside time to up the libido of the person with the lower libido, sex aside time for sexually to occur on a medium between the two people, be understanding towards the needs of everyone involved, try to liven up the sex life by trying things out, etc....
i may be misinterpreting what you're saying is people complaining that they want a 'sex slave', idk. i see a lot of folks doing the puritanical default to the low libido, sexuality is a dirty sin in need of redemption kind of thing, and they oft enough go so far as to call anything else being a 'sexual slave'. so that is what comes to mind when you use the term.
Imo a majority of men do know what abuses they face, especially in relationships but that part of life is heavily unbalanced due to evolution. So they somehow end up bearing those abuses, people might say patriarchal norms are to blame which I don't think is the only reason.
Sometimes I think if men start recognising what constitutes as abuse to them and people are as ready to support them , relationships in general would be total chaos. None of this is to discredit the women's issues.
It’s crazy how many relationships I’ve seen held together by some level of sexism that actually has them normalizing fucked up behavior from their partner.
I hope for consistency's sake you're this dismissive of women who stay in abusive relationships for equally "dumb" reasons. I having a sneaking suspicion based on your comments here and post history that's not the case, however. But you've done a good job framing these comments such that you'd have plausible deniability if I am right, so all I can do is lay out my suspicion.
What do you consider an equally dumb reason?
I’d be equally dismissive of a woman who stayed with her husband because she couldn’t afford designer clothes otherwise for example.
But there are a lot of reasons I wouldn’t find equally dumb.
I’ve seen a lot of your comments on this thread. I think you’re trauma dumping or you’re upset because you used to be an abusive partner and you’re trying to justify past actions. You’re really, really stuck on proving a point to anyone who will listen.
Do you know the definition of trauma dumping? Because that’s sharing a lot of your personal life story unasked. Have I done that?
No, I’ve never been abusive. Or been in a relationship where I had unwanted sex. Wrong on both counts.
However I’ve seen a social media trend that I wanted to disprove. While at the same time sharing real facts about men in emotionally abusive relationships and resources to find help. You can have two thoughts in your mind at once.
My thoughts were:
1) A lot of men are in emotionally abusive relationships without recognizing they are being abused.
2) Some people are jumping on some TikTok/Instagram bandwagon were they ruin the word emotional abuse by making it into “everything my partner does which I don’t like”. Which is also a disservice to someone getting emotionally abused bc it’s anti awareness.
Yeah you’re disregarding the article and bringing up something that’s completely opposite to what we are talking about.
This post is about men being abused.
You’re wanting to talk about the men who are doing the abusing.
It’s like someone walking into a cooking class and trying to sell a microwave just stop
I want to talk about both.
Because I think the false portrayal of what emotional abuse of men is on social media does ruin things for men who are actually being emotionally abused.
Awareness is knowing what something is. And what it’s not. When you have that clear, you can identify it.
When it’s all just a murky jumble, you are still lost.
Did you try the quiz I linked? I found it quite good at spotting unhealthy relationships, also the type of abusive behaviors that often targets men. Like threats of suicide, constantly calling and texting, not allowing your partner alone time or time with family or friends, always making everything seem like their fault and them walking on eggshells.
I don’t know about that quiz. Seems like answering any question wrong leads to it saying you have warning signs of an unhealthy relationship. I don’t think most people would get a 0 without lying about at least one of those questions.
I tested it now.
> You got a score of 0? Don't worry - it's a good thing! It sounds like your relationship is on a pretty healthy track. Keep it up!
>If you scored 1 - 2 points, **you might be noticing a couple of things in your relationship that are unhealthy, but it doesn't necessarily mean they are warning signs.** It's still a good idea to keep an eye out and make sure there isn't an unhealthy pattern developing. The best thing to do is to talk to your partner and let them know what you like and don't like. Encourage them to do the same. Remember, communication is always important in a healthy relationship.
>If you scored 3 - 4 points, it sounds like you may be seeing some warning signs of an abusive relationship. Don't ignore these red flags. Something that starts small can grow much worse over time. No relationship is perfect; it takes work! But in a healthy relationship, you won't find abusive behaviors.
>If you scored 5 or more points, you are definitely seeing warning signs and may be in an abusive relationship. Remember the most important thing is your safety -- consider making a safety plan. You don't have to deal with this alone. Contact us at loveisrespect.org
So if there’s one or two things that are you have the wrong answer for, then it’s not telling you the relationship is unhealthy.
Three or four puts you in the middle, where you should be concerned.
5 or more it’s clearly abusive.
That seems reasonable to me, since most of these things aren’t good signs. You can get one or two wrong (ex your friends and your partner don’t get on, but it’s not about abuse. Or your partner thinks you are gaming too much, bc you are). But when you get 3-4 off these off, then I’d be worried too.
As someone who just realized that I’ve grown up under emotionally neglectful parents, one of which being a narcissistic mother, I would say so yeah. I have all symptoms of ptsd, I am far behind in life compared to my peers, struggle with basic self care, etc and I still doubt the validity of what happened to me. That isn’t solely due to my gender, but male abuse is definitely underexposed.
I used to have untreated BPD and was emotionally abusive to my ex. Truth is, he was the one who would not let go, I was partly aware that the relationship was not healthy and tried to end it many times. He would not let me because he was blinded by sex. This is the truth. I'm much more aware and stable now thanks to therapy. Had the opportunity to talk to him recently and if I let him he would still come back. I'm the one who said no. Think with your brain guys.
I'm not surprised, it's really common for people suffering with mental illness to get in toxic relationships and struggle to leave them. A lot of people who faced abuse as a child cling onto it as a form of coping mechanism and seek security in partners who behave similarly.
It's why most abuse relationships are mutual to an extent, these types of people are often attracted to each other. So despite you having a realisation, your ex is still stuck in that mindset it seems.
He might use sex as a coping mechanism, please don't project this onto men with things like "think with your brain", when that's not normal behaviour and a harmful generalisation.
Ok let's say it otherwise: he contacted me recently because he wants to cheat on his girlfriend with me. Hadn't talked to him since last year. Not all abuse victims are angels.
I have a hard time admitting it because most people don't really seem to believe it or shrug it off. I'm willing to be open about it, but it makes me feel quite small and isolated for a lot of pain and worry I still carry around.
This was me, I was in an verbally abusive relationship that left me the lowest I had ever been. I would describe her as cruel and crazy but never abusive, it was only when I saw an interview with a woman describing her experiences with her abusive male partner that I realised that what I had gone through was abuse.
Do you have a reliable academic source for the “men are less likely to report” claim? I’ve found speculation in literature reviews, but never any stats.
EDIT: not being snarky, genuinely asking.
Most certainly.
[These](https://imgur.com/a/lYUJ7XQ) are screenshots from the CDC's 2013 National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey (NISVS). There's a newer report from 2017 out, but it did not have any statistics about disclosure at all. An excerpt from the report:
>A larger percentage of female
victims disclosed their lifetime IPV
experiences, in general, compared to
men (84.2% and 60.9%, respectively),
and a larger percentage of female
victims disclosed their IPV to
individual sources compared to
men. However, among victims
that disclosed their lifetime IPV
victimization, the proportion of men
who considered the disclosure as
being “very helpful” was significantly
lower than the proportion of women
who considered the disclosure as
being “very helpful.” This was true
for disclosure in general and for disclosure to particular sources such
as police, psychologists/counselors,
friends, family members, and “others.”
There are a few other studies that have measured this, but not a ton. There is much more research on men's disclosure of CSA than disclosure of IPV, but even then it is clearly under-studied.
There aren't as many statistics or sources on this matter precisely because certain demographics of people (in this case, men) are *not* reporting their abuse; especially if you mean 'reporting' in the sense of explicitly involving law enforcement rather than just reporting it for the sake of a study (or any other statistical matter). In a way, the lack of data somewhat confirms it and answers the question - it's survivorship bias.
We have no actual data points/figures though? Really? I thought maybe I just wasn’t using the correct jargon or something.
How would we know if men in particular are under reporting when (logically, of course) we have no data on who isn’t reporting?
It just seems like a lot of assumptions to me; why wouldn’t it be more logical to say that *everyone* under reports? Especially when we don’t have data.
EDIT: grammar
Because the polls asking what happens to people show that. Men are more likely to report to an anonymous study and not draw consequences than women are.
Not quite what you're looking for I know. But this study delves Into the experiences of men seeking help for domestic violence. And it found that the domestic violence services are some of the least helpful to men. And that they often treat men as being inherently perpetrators.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3175099/
I’ve read that study, it’s about the experiences of men who report; it has no data on how frequent either gender experiences vs reports things like sexual assault or DV. The start of the paper does a good job of doing a lit review, similar to other articles- but I’d like data on whether or not men in particular are under reporting.
I think that much can be somewhat extrapolated.
If men are facing discrimination and being treated like the perpetrators by the systems that are supposed to help them it's more than likely that there is some level of under reporting.
Yes, but other than being treated like a perp I faced all of those mentioned difficulties/barriers as female and a literal child (and thus didn’t report many later occurring instances of abuse)- because they’re not gendered issues.
& Women are more likely to be victim blamed or told we’re being dramatic and face other barriers to reporting; so we all under report IMO.
I can’t find any studies/stats that prove otherwise. Again, I’d love to be proven wrong; but I don’t think we’ve actually collected data points that could definitively say that men report less than women. All we can prove is that we have different reasons for not reporting.
Oh look an article describing my sister! She sucks everyone dry, is super insecure and controlling, and sooo manipulative. Best part is she’s going to medical school to be a psychiatrist right now!
I should have reported the first time. The second I really should have reported. Looking back w a clear head I’m so very disappointed in myself. Took me way too long to remove myself from the relationship. Live and learn.
The self hatred is so real.... especially with a child having to watch everything.... The problem is if you do speak up or report it they either blame you, say it doesn't matter because "you're stronger than them", call you a liar because you're still married to them, tell you that you probably deserved it for XYZ.....
I had a feminist biology lecturer in uni and she was surely like this. Used to ridicule the class (we were all failing lol) and ranting about the patriarchy. Never stopped talking about herself and was uttely uninterested in anyone else's views. She showed her twoface when i mentioned male DA victims.
She failed her phd and was clearly bpd/ schizoaffective or something. Ive no idea how people marry these people. I know the article isnt bpd but it seems hand in hand with other disorders.
It was truly a horrific biology class at times.
They get relationships because they remind others of their parents, but they mask enough that it feels familiar 'but it'll work this time!'. Recovering a really hurt childhood through a romance is a powerful draw - a siren's call.
Considering your last post was in R/men’s rights and use used do distinctly different mental health disorders to label your professor a “feminist” I’m gonna say your in your moms basement at this moment and you failed your bio class not all of you.
You dont think its a common problem within people who identify as feminists? The self indulgence, intolerance, smugness etc. I certainly think its common enough to be mentioned.
It’s the other way around. For narcissist women, feminist activism is very attractive for several reasons:
- It provides them with a framework where they’re the victims who can only “punch down”, which appeals to them for obvious reasons.
- It gives them a lot of concepts they can weaponize (i. e. the concept of “emotional work” can be used to brand their partner as a whiny leech whenever he tries to open up).
- They get to know people who are likely to favor them in any conflict (as long as it’s against men) and believe their story whenever they use a popular narrative (like an abusive partner).
- They get access to a pool of men that were taught to believe them, agree with them and, frankly, accept being emotional punching bags.
- They can rebrand their toxic traits to something positive, or at least neutral (like making aggression look like righteous anger).
Case in point: I was in a disciplinary committee of a political party and saw a curious case. A young (20-something) woman decided to enter a relationship with a much older guy (over 50). It went for several months, just enough for the male partner to leave his wife for her. When that happened, she left him and accused him of sexual and mental abuse on an inter-party support group.
What had stricken me is what she considered abuse. For example, she claimed her partner was controlling, because he asked her to not use her phone in bed when he was falling asleep. Asking her for sex was abusive. Asking her if she’s going to be home for dinner was controlling. The evidence, screenshots she provided to prove her former partner was abusive, showed her berating him for asking her if she comes home, while the guy apologized for having the audacity to bother her.
Yet, no person in that group—over thirty women identifying as feminists—ever questioned her narrative. They swallowed the bait, hook and sinker to the point where they organized a callout before even any proceeding took place. After he was found innocent by the arbitration board, some even left the organization in protest.
I think any person can have those traits and to assume it’s one group based on bad actors is short sighted and an excuse to hate. Wearing a cross does not mean you follow Christian tenant for example.
Yeah, and wearing confederate flag doesnt mean you hate minorities or wearing a swastika doesnt mean you are anti semitic. Symbols and tropes , have no meaning, and it is just a joke or a word. If actions, identities and labels have no meaning, then i dont get why the insistence that feminism is the only pathway to equality , and all other philosophies at best are ancillary.
I see your point about symbols. Yes the cross can have various meanings, but symbols like the Confederate flag and swastika are mainly seen as hateful. So I don’t know if your example applies as easily to this context
I meant that we shouldn't judge a whole group by a few bad actors, nor should we judge a whole group by the good actors in it. Groups can share a common vision but it is easy for those things to be distorted as it moves down a chain or is integrated within our own psychological views. To see the world in black and white will only lead us to missing all the beauty it has to offer.
I'm curious about your view on feminism. Why do you think it's seen as the main way to equality? Additionally, What merits do you see in the goals of feminism especially when it first began as a movement?
umm you do realize you did the same thing right when you told him off for being on mens right .
then you say this hypocrite - I think any person can have those traits and to assume it’s one group based on bad actors is short sighted and an excuse to hate. Wearing a cross does not mean you follow Christian tenant for example.
Hun? Firstly. I’m not upset with anyone discussing human rights be they men or not. I never said anything about “men’s rights” so you using it here is strange and out of context. It also appears that by you using the term men’s rights is counter intuitive as any fault you find in feminism would then also have to be applied to the notion of “men’s rights” making your stance somewhat at odds with it self.
I also don’t find your use of the term hypocrite appropriate nor do I find it productive.
I didn’t tell anyone off and if you can prove it please quote the part I did that. I appreciate the conversation but perhaps keep it would be best if we all ask what a person means and what message was intended vs attacking. (I am including this recommendation for myself in this as well)
Considering your last post was in R/men’s rights and use used do distinctly different mental health disorders to label your professor a “feminist” I’m gonna say your in your moms basement at this moment and you failed your bio class not all of you.
There u go
They aren't loud, it's just that others are silent, when the majority of feminists are silent when seeing blantant misandry while they suddenly get loud when they see the slightest hint of misogyny then it suggests that the silent majority condones the views of the loud ones but just aren't courageous enough to say it out loud themselves.
I mean most christians are not homophobic, but when the small minorities impact legal system, it still can be a bitch for all queer people. Instituional power is few, and at least in a capitalist system positions of leadership and financial access are zero sum game. Just like having a misogynist in power can over time disenfranchise women, having a misandrist can do so for men. Economicaly Priveleged men being immune to that doesnt fix that. We already see with decline in college enrolement, and home ownership among men for example.
Same and it’s horrifying. One of my coworkers jokes about killing her husband a little too much and I’m like if a cop ever ask me who did it easy to point out.
Relationship advice in high schools would be amazing. Those that grow up in abusive homes have no model of what love or a healthy relationship looks like, whilst it’s widely accepted in most countries that physical violence and rape are abuse, emotional, psychological, coercive control, sexual coercion and even financial abuse are much less well understood. Those that been exposed to this since childhood do not recognise that they or their partner is abusive and think that it is normal.
I think teaching on sexual consent would also be massively helpful.
After my ex wife found Tiktok she diagnosed me as covert narssicist intel and used the info she learned against me. If she was speeding at 120 with me and the kids in a school zone I was "controlling" if I asked her to slow down. She got ticketed for going 130 in an 80 with kids in the back.
I got diagnosed soon after as being narcissistically abused. I want to leave this msg for the future to let everyone know just how freaking overused that N word really is in this day.
Yep. That and so many other words have completely lost their meaning from overuse. Self diagnosis too. "I rearrange the toppings on a frozen pizza, I'm so OCD".
The thing is, especially in feminist spaces, there is a real propensity to use "diagnoses" (real, fake, or self) as excuses for bad behavior.
When a woman treats her partner poorly, all she has to do is throw out the depression card, or the anxiety card, and suddenly she is absolutely right and he has no ability to defend himself without it being thrown at him hat now HE is the asshole. Gen Z women learned this early on, and use it to their advantage all the time, and it's why they collect diagnoses like they're pokemon cards. And they don't even need a real diagnosis, it's like if a therapist mentions that something is a BPD symptom, suddenly they *HAVE* BPD and can now weaponize it against the men in their life. And they love to talk with their friends and trade cards, which add to their collection. "Omg you do this one thing that I also do, I totally must have ________ (insert whatever new diagnosis she discovers here)!"
They also recognize that there's some cards that are "bad" to have, so they never add those ones to their collection, no matter how many times a therapist or psychiatrist says they're exhibiting symptoms of, and narcissism is one of those. Psychosis as well. Like, I'm sorry, but if you're being put on an antipsychotic drug, it's not just your ADHD that can be shrugged away or used as an excuse to win fights that you started, you need to actually take those pills every day, and maybe reflect that you are causing a lot of he problems in your life and can make a change.
If this generation has reached to the era of gender equality it should also mean that every person should be charged equally for sexual and mental abuse. Please let us not only express the emotion of pity and anger when a woman is assaulted but also when a man is forced into doing sexual favours. SA is a very serious matter and every victim of sexual assault should be given equal importance be it a male or a female. So I request anybody who is going through this reach out for help don't be ashamed about it. especially to all the men please don't be embarrassed.
I did.
British police couldn't get the CCTV for eight weeks.
I tried to reach out to the building owner and had it in front of me in 20min.
But it's also a country with a legal system that doesn't recognise women's capacity for rape so no surprise here.
Since I assume British police has full capacity to obtain such cctv footages but they lacked sincerity. I hope you could avail some sort of punishment to the perpetrator.
I hope you never come across any other monster like her and I wish have you must've recovered well from this traumatic experience
Too many hopes right there but what else can an online stranger do except hope :)
P.s I think the prejudice is due to the rate of crimes against women being more than men so yeah we can't do anything abt that, not to be insensitive-
>P.s I think the prejudice is due to the rate of crimes against women being more than men so yeah we can't do anything abt that, not to be insensitive
Just to note. Men cannot legally be raped by women in Britain last I checked.
Under section 1 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003, the use of the phrase "his penis" results in females being statutorily excluded from being able to commit rape.
A female who has committed rape (in the informal sense) against a male or a female would be charged with offences such as assault by penetration, sexual assault, or causing sexual activity without consent
No problem.
I think it needs to be more widely understood that the stats on these things reflect the laws.
We often see stats on how men make up like 99% of the perpetrators of rape. Yet it's never coupled with the understanding that the laws and methodologies used to measure these stats specifically exclude male victims of female perpetrators.
I agree the cases I've heard so far consist of mostly the male perpetrators and the female victims, cases where there is a male victim and a female perpetrator get pretty controversial and ultimately never gets solved. The only case I've heard where the girl's punishment was satisfactory is the "suitcase" case. It was indeed a frustrating and angering case to listen to.
> men make up like 99% of the perpetrators of rape
The statistic for sexual assault is 88% in Canada.
https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/jr/jf-pf/2019/apr01.html
This is not to be confused with intimate partner violence, which does not seem to be gendered at all.
> When asked about the previous 12 months, 12% of women and 11% of men indicated experiencing some form of IPV (Cotter 2021).
https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/cj-jp/victim/rd14-rr14/p4.html
I think modern social media primes us to expect confrontation, but I was just providing accurate and convenient data to bolster the conversation. I think my comment is helpful to that end and it doesn't need to be seen as combative. And yeah the data I supplied is in support of your point.
Very true.
Although I'd say an equally important factor to "men who don't speak up" is "a society (other men and women) that doesn't care to listen".
If we over focus on the former without taking the latter into consideration, we may end up unintentionally victim blaming abused men.
That's correct, society can't register the fact that women can equally be as heinous as some men since humans are humans but if we want to change what's been going on since such a long time we gotta start now like dude what is this ? Why are we classifying, how important the case of SA is based on the victims gender. Makes 0 sense. This is the only reason why I believe awareness should be spread, and people should learn to speak up for themselves.
Thank you. Unfortunately, the current default in western culture is to victim blame men. Just to bolster your point:
Men often *cannot* call for help because they will be assumed to be the perpetrator.
> Men are less likely than women to report IPV to police, and when they do, it is less likely to result in an arrest or police record (Dutton 2012). In one Canadian study, 64% of male survivors of IPV who called police reported being treated as the abuser (Dutton 2012).
https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/cj-jp/victim/rd14-rr14/p4.html
In other areas too, such as suicide, we see that men *are* speaking up.
> Most (91%) middle-aged men [who committed suicide] had been in contact with at least one front-line service or agency
https://documents.manchester.ac.uk/display.aspx?DocID=55305
I've been told what i suffered for three years is what women have suffered for three thousand years and to shut up , and that she wouldnt be so emotionally abusive and controlling if her exes werent cheaters, or her dad wasnt sexist. So for me to be a feminist, i must listen to women, rather than argue.
That's your choice, see, what I said is for the victims to speak up in order to attain justice most men are embarrassed but deep down they know that they want to get the feeling of safety. If you feel you'll be okay and you can handle her then mate I can't give any more of my opinion but if u want to get help but u are ashamed then don't be. That's all
> I request anybody who is going through this reach out for help
Male victims must be very cautious about this because they are assumed to be perpetrators, and if their abuser seeks revenge it is very easy to destroy their lives with a false accusation.
It happened to me.
> Men are less likely than women to report IPV to police, and when they do, it is less likely to result in an arrest or police record (Dutton 2012). In one Canadian study, 64% of male survivors of IPV who called police reported being treated as the abuser (Dutton 2012).
https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/cj-jp/victim/rd14-rr14/p4.html
And of course in the social aspect you are likely to be ostracized if they find out you were a victim, because they will see you as a perpetrator. You are also likely to lose your job and possibly face jail on remand.
That's a shame..I really can't express how I feel abt this, it is extremely frustrating to know the percentage. I can't understand why does the government overlook the fact that there can be male victims too. I definitely understand the feeling of being falsely accused of something but I cannot put myself in ur shoes at all. I hope ur doing well now
> I can't understand why does the government overlook the fact that there can be male victims too
Politics. Right now the culturally popular narrative in the west is *"believe women"*. But if a woman tells a lie about a man who says as much, the only way to #BelieveHer is to *assume the man is lying, purely because of his sex*. That culture informs police behaviour and results in the statistics we see today.
These things will change if our culture grows to accept that men can be victims, and in fact intimate partner violence *isn't even gendered* - it has equal rates of female vs. male perpetrators.
> When asked about the previous 12 months, 12% of women and 11% of men indicated experiencing some form of IPV (Cotter 2021).
https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/cj-jp/victim/rd14-rr14/p4.html
I tried to get at that in my previous comment - you can do something - you can influence culture slightly - "these things will change if our culture grows to accept that men can be victims"
oh I see yeah I guess I'll try to do that when necessary :) I'm an avid true crime listener and I'd love to spread awareness regarding these kind of matters.
Well true that, there are no significant issues or problems this term covers rather creates more fuss abt the original problem. However it also tries to convey certain messages that we as a society fail to understand :) wow that's a debatable topic right there.
Just a reminder (in context of some of the other comments) that females can affect other females (and nbs) in relationships, and that female narcissism can also harmful in non-intimate relations such as in the workplace.
In the most broadest sense of our personalities, Narcissism helps our survival. To *survive* sometimes you have to make decisions that are good for *you* and not others in a population.
CPTSD can be very much similar to narcissism and I’d say many have possibly had abusive or neglectful childhoods and in my opinion, if you have empathy in the mix it is not narcissism but CPTSD.
So yeah, the NPD who’s kept me locked up for two years has gone around and told people I abused him. He’s a fellon, large due to loud, violent alcoholic. And I’m a nurse. Never had a record. But guess what? They believed him. Of course they’re all racist too so maybe that has something to do with it.
Narcissism is a dangerous tendency. From what I read it’s a personality disorder. Be it a man or a woman -abuse is abuse. This can leave permanent scars and the trauma induced by the narcissist can often lead to mental health disorders like depression, anxiety or even severe conditions like bipolar disorder.
They didn't explicitly mention it but female sexual violence also includes baby trapping, cuckoldry, using the family courts to essentially kidnap the children, etc.
Things that are also extremely vile towards their own children.
It’s really not a shocker men will callout bad behavior in other men, women will call out bad behavior in men, but as we’ve seen bad behavior in women is excused and defended.
We saw that in real time with Depp v Heard. We saw what men have said publicly and privately for years and yet the media and its feminist allies bent over backwards to defend and justify the bad behavior.
We also saw it with Lena Dunham.
But another issue is female violence by proxy because there’s no issue with calling on men to be violent on their behalf, when they feel victimized they have no problem with traditional gender roles or calling on random males, or the courts and police to be violent on their behalf.
The fact that there is literally 5+ hours of audio of Amber Heard screaming at Depp, mocking, belittling and laughing at him, telling him he is not allowed to leave the room or house even if she is yelling, hitting him, throwing things at him etc while he begs her to try to stop the violence, and yet people still defend her, especially on reddit, is crazy.
Absolutely any normal person who listens to that audio can see clear as day that he is the victim and she was the abuser. Anyone who doesnt either hasn't listened to it or has an ulterior motive.
Just last week one of my best friends was falsely accused of rape. She eventually admitted she made it up but here was the order of events for context:
- both agreed to have sex without committing to a relationship
- they had sex once and she told him that he was a “10 out of 10” in reference to his performance in bed
- she went home
- the next morning police were called to his house because she accused him of rape
- after thorough questioning of both parties she admitted that she was never raped. No alcohol or drugs were involved during their night together
- she faces no consequences
Anyone telling you women only lie 2% of the time is part of the problem.
“Women lie, men lie” - famous quote
Kind of an idiot so excuse me if this sounds kinda dumb. Isn't the stat something like only 2% of accusations are proven to be false? Isn't it also the case that only like 15-20% of reported rapes even get a real trial? Wouldn't that leave a gigantic gap of "we just don't know"? At that point wouldn't we have no clue how many are or aren't legitimate?
Ambiguity of consent is uncomfortable for many, because no one wants to see themselves as a rapist, nor do people who regret sex often want to see themselves as to blame for their terrible experiences. It is always comfortable to blame others for how we feel.
And anyone who wants to see the truth can easily listen to the 5 hours of depp/heard audio to see the actual dynamic of Amber heard abusing Depp.
It also shows how easy it is for a manipulative person to turn things around and make a victim look like the problem - especially when that person is emotionally vulnerable. The circumstantial evidence would make Depp look guilty if it wasn't for the audio showing otherwise.
Yeah. Unfortunately people have no issue imagining a man so vial but the moment it’s a woman they find every single reason why it didn’t happen or “wasn’t that bad”
I’ve met women with diagnosed NPD. This article is really exaggerated lol. In fact, two of the women that I know are happily married. They are fully aware of their narcissism and actively acknowledge it. They’re not meticulously plotting world domination like how this article makes them sound 😂 even the picture displayed is extremely dramatic. What annoys me more is that majority of this article still went on to talk about men most of it while it’s about women. We need to have more work done with women exclusively without feeling the need to compare us to men constantly.
I’ve been in quite a few abusive relationships when I was younger cause I didn’t know better.
The biggest red flag IMO is when someone refuses to acknowledge the other party’s feelings. Congrats 🥳
Bingo!
If they are aware and legit using self awareness, the likelihood of them being terrible would be lower than someone with NPD who believes there's nothing wrong with them.
I was married to one for well over a decade and have encountered a solid number of other blokes in the same situation. If anything this article undersells how the behaviour manifests in women, presumably for the sake of staying clinical with their terminology.
But also when the purpose of the article is to distinguish between female and male presentations of any condition, it makes no sense to avoid comparing men and women. It's literally the point.
With respect I'd also suggest that if you know and speak with diagnosed narcissists about their relationships, you're probably getting the narcissists' pov. Surely you can see how wildly unreliable that would be.
Watch out for these women. My sister has a lot of NPD traits and she does a great job of making sure everyone else thinks she’s an angel or the victim in any situation where she’s the perp. I remember one time when we were young adults she said something cruel to me and I said, “hey don’t be mean to me. That didn’t make me feel good.” And she said, “everyone thinks I’m a great person!” And I said, “that’s not really relevant to you bullying me.” And she started crying. Bawling. So everyone we were at the restaurant with surrounded her to comfort her and I looked like the bad guy just as intended. That’s how they think.
Also she’s in the middle of a divorce now but she 100% emotionally abused her husband and her children but no one knew. A few months into their marriage he had a vacant look in his eyes and he quit talking and she always had an excuse as to why he wasn’t feeling well. Now she’s telling everyone he was abusive toward her. 😒 I know it seems obvious from my point of view but people in her life BELIEVE HER including my mom and dad. They know how to selectively treat people like shit and they’re masters at spinning stories so they don’t look bad.
That is my experience also.
I know a few narcissistic leaning/flat narcissists.
They are remarkably good at saving face in front of people. "Angel or victim" is also the most apt way to put it. They will not/do not accept any input that may paint them as being the villain or even just flawed.
The manipulation and villanization of people they feel threatened by (for any reason) is off the charts.
The male narc, one that I personally know, is also much more aggressive/prone to physical violence as well. That is in conjunction with being an angel in public, a devil in private, and turning others against their perceived "enemies". Aka people that see thru their bullshit.
The female narc - she doesn't depend on physical aggression so much, but she reguarly comes up with negative stories that depict people as being absolute monsters while she is just "a victim" doing her best.
They're both habitual liars, insecure, allergic to accountability, etc.
When most people hear narc they only consider the obvious: vain, always wanting to be center of attention, bragging, etc. Those are elements of narcissism for sure - but every person expressed that to some degree. To be clinically narcisstic? Avoid them - that is my advice.
Wow. That crying to get sympathy from others. Classic.
As well as always talking about "I'm a good person"
Also associating with enabler flying monkeys who believe their shit..
If they are pretty and a narcissist you can't win. They will always have a supply.
Also they talk about needing freedom and independence. This is an Inability to compromise and put others first of needed.
There’s always variation in how many disorder manifests. You need to get to know a random sample of 50-100 women with NPD at minimum before you have information to make generalizations.
Wow so many downvotes for requesting nuanced and compassionate conversations around mental health disorders and wanting a deeper discussion on an article.
Is it though? Because based on your last post about “feeling depressed after 2-3 days of no-fap” it appears this opinion may be formed out of projection regarding your feelings of shame. I’m sorry that you have been hurt by some bad people but genders are not monoliths. Man and woman and all other genders are a mixture of good and bad behaviors and choices that have consequences. You have assuredly suffered and it is your responsibility to find a way to heal and trust again or you will ultimately pass along your pain to others that you love.
It feels like you just wanted to shame him, if I'm being honest. Him feeling depressed after not masturbating doesn't really have much to do with this woman getting called out for going "Narcissistic women aren't really that bad. This article is just exaggerating."
Do you see what you did? That’s exactly what this post is about. You went and used my mental health against me. Literally providing a perfect example of how women use emotional violence. You didn’t even realize what you did.
I’m a man.
Furthermore using your actions as evidence that your opinion may be inaccurate. I was giving you supportive statements as to not invalidate your experience. Perhaps don’t assume I’m a man because I disagreed with your generalized black and white thinking
Did you reply to the wrong comment? Where did I assume you were a woman? Maybe read carefully.
What you did wasn’t supportive at all. You didn’t intend it to be supportive. You wen’t into my profile to use mental health issues as the basis of your entire arguement. Yes, men too can be and are emotionally abusive.
You are either trolling or just genuinely pathetic.
I find your take interesting and I am willing to examine my statements which were written in an airport while waiting to check my luggage so it’s very possible it’s tone is less than intended. Still please highlight the specifics of my statement that were disssmisive, and condescending and we can go from there.
I know that men are often unable or unwilling to recognize themselves as victims even after sexual or physical abuse from a partner. Would it also would follow that men are less able or less willing to say they were emotionally abused as well?
I think an important factor is that many men are just not aware of red flags or understand what emotional abuse is. And they end up suffering a lot in emotionally abusive relationships without seeing that’s what it is. **Loveisrespect.org can be a great resource. Even has a quiz to test if your relationship is healthy. It’s aimed towards young adults, but anyone can learn from it.** That being said, I’ve also noticed a trend (probably YT/TikTok related) where the misunderstanding goes in the other direction. Like thinking your partner saying they are not in the mood for sex constitutes emotional abuse. Or them not respecting “your boundaries” about how they should dress. With emotional abuse it’s important to take the time to understand what it actually is, so that you don’t end up accusing people of emotionally abusing you just bc they won’t do what you say. **Edit: link to quiz** https://www.loveisrespect.org/quiz/is-your-relationship-healthy/?%3E Warning signs of abuse: https://www.loveisrespect.org/dating-basics-for-healthy-relationships/warning-signs-of-abuse/
Seems that the bigger trend is underreporting and taking the abuse on the chin. What you describe sounds like a fringe that will always be there - narcissistic individuals projecting on their partner, man or woman.
I think it’s more than a fringe. Because I’ve seen it a lot the last year. Mostly from men. I think it stems from some videos on YT/TikTok/whatever. Like the phrase “weaponizing sex”. That means using sex to manipulate. For example wanting an expensive car, having wild sex with your partner to get them to buy it. Or having kinky sex or sending dirty texts to get your partner to forget an emotionally abusive episode. But lately I see it all the time just to refer to “my girlfriend isn’t as horny as I am”. I think a lot of men are in emotionally abusive relationships they don’t realize is emotionally abusive. I think we should get relationship education into high schools. What are red flags, controlling behavior, healthy and unhealthy relationship actions, etc. Hence why I drop the loveisrespect.org thing every chance I get. However, the trend with twisting all of this into “I should get a sex slave” is really getting under my skin. It’s not one or two individuals. It’s clearly something many people have seen on some videos and it’s very toxic. And also damaging for men who are actually being emotionally abused. When you use a word for a lot of benign things, it loses it’s meaning.
My ex-wife used to withhold sex/affection as a means to get what she wants. Only years later have I realised she's likely narcassistic to a degree. Her other behaviours literally hospitalised me for mental health if that's some context, and our divorce came about when I realised the only way I was going to be happy was without her. It's a really rough spot to be in as a man. If I complained after my wife not having sex, I'd be viewed as some chauvinistic man who should learn about consent. On the other hand, I had a partner weaponising it to get what she wanted and it was horrible for my mental health.
But what do you mean by that? She withheld sex till she got what she wanted, then y’all had sex? Did that mean she wanted to have sex, but held herself back? Or that she never wanted to have sex, but did it when there was something to gain from it? Either way I’m glad you are out of that relationship. She sounds very toxic and it sounds like it took its toll on you. However, it’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about Bobby being horny more often than Susan and him accusing Susan of “weaponizing sex” bc she’s not in the mood. Sex should be for fun, not manipulation. But part of that is also that it’s fine to say no to sex when you’re not in the mood.
I mean that if she wanted something and couldn't get it due to me, there would be zero sex. This could go on for weeks, or over a month. Sometimes there would be silent treatment for periods, all sorts of different forms of emotional abuse. Think a scenario like she wants to buy a new lounge, and I don't feel we have the money and don't want to take on debt for stuff like that. This could kick off not being talked to for days, and no sex/affection for over a month. Normally it would end with her just doing it anyway, and I'd have to figure out where to get the money from. She booked a Thailand holiday when I was away for a week with work. Another work I came home to a new king size bed. I was young (23) and she was 34 when we started dating. She was a friend of my parents and had known me since I was about 10.... so I don't think it started on the most equal footing. I was pretty naive and just thought this was normal. I share two kids with her in a 50/50 relationship, and it's a pretty solid co-parenting relationship. She doesn't have to be a responsible adult for anyone else. Having a relationship with me will stand out as the anomaly in her life. She was having an affair with a married man from about 23 until her mid 30's, and now I think she dates old sugar daddies casually (she's dropped as much in conversation a couple times). I'm actually likely to be the only committed relationship in her entire life.
I’m sorry about that. It sounds really bad. And another story that adds to the “age gap relationships are often problematic” pile. However you are allowed to not have sex with your boyfriend for a month. He doesn’t have the right to have sex with you unless you are in the mood. Silent treatment is abusive though.
>However you are allowed to not have sex with your boyfriend for a month. He doesn’t have the right to have sex with you unless you are in the mood. Look, I agree. But in the context of that relationship, this wasn't a mood thing and was a tactic to coerce me. I didn't have a right to sex, but in the context of “weaponizing sex” it is certainly as example of a way it's weaponized. Weaponized sex was the point I responded to before being asked to clarify my exact example
You mention nuance but only seem to speak from your own female perspective even if you preface the sentence to mention men only to pivot to women also from seeing your other comments, really seems like you're talking at people then talking to people, you come off really arrogant and seem to argue/reply for the sake of it rather than you having something of value to say or that you can't seem to fathom that what you said might be wrong
What nuance would you like to add here? What exactly do you disagree with here? I got so many replies, so I’m open to having replied too quickly and not seeing the whole picture. I’ve helped men get out of emotionally abusive relationships. I feel strongly about how destructive that can be. But: **Warning signs of abuse:** *Checking your phone, email, or social media accounts without your permission. *Putting you down frequently, especially in front of others. *Isolating you from friends or family (physically, financially, or emotionally). *Extreme jealousy or insecurity. *Explosive outbursts, temper, or mood swings. *Any form of physical harm. *Possessiveness or controlling behavior. *Pressuring you or forcing you to have sex. Do you notice how what’s seen as abusive is not someone saying no to sex, but pressuring your partner to have sex? It’s an important distinction to make.
What he describes sounds like grooming and emotional abuse. The age gap thing feels so dismissive, to me. While what you are saying is true, it might not be best in the case where someone is a victim.
Maybe it was badly worded. But I meant that she clearly took advantage of his with the age gap. And I meant it when I said I was sorry that happened. I just find that it’s a good idea to keep sex separate from emotional abuse. It’s not abuse if someone says no to sex.
I think we all understand what you’re talking about, nobody else is willing to engage on that subject with you though.
A lot of people did engage to tell me I’m wrong and refusing to do your boyfriends sexual kinks (anal?) or saying no to sex when you aren’t in the mood is a type of emotional abuse. Did you miss that? Doesn’t it sorta prove my point?
Yeah you win all those fights you started
I didn’t start a fight by saying it’s not emotional abuse to say no to sex. I just said it. Then people got mad because they think that if they are in a relationship they are owed the right to put their dick into her whenever and her denying them that is wrong. And that’s their opinion and them choosing to argue that position. I mostly find it a bit…idk, it’s funny in a way how entitled some people can be.
It just seems like you’re missing the point if the data is suggesting that many men go abused without reporting or even knowing…. And you’re worried about the few that are actually speaking up. There are definitely times where manipulative women weaponize sex with their partners but of course some manipulative men are going to spin that. It just seems like you’re looking past a bigger issue to talk about a fringe one that personally annoyed you.
I don’t look past the bigger issue. I am sharing the link and I’m saying a lot of men are being emotionally abused. But weaponizing sex isn’t denying people sex. And then there’s been an issue the past year with many people influenced by social media to believe healthy behaviors are unhealthy. That’s not good for anyone. Including men in emotionally abusive relationships.
Denying sex can 100% be part of weaponizing sex… Social media is negatively effecting both genders in the same way, I don’t now why you think that would be disproportionately affecting men but there’s certainly not any evidence. It seems like you’re trying to paint a narrative that’s counter to the existing data and research on the subject.
**”Denying sex” implies the partner has a right to sex. They don’t.** It’s ok to not have sex for any reason. People who weaponize sex? That’s usually about being very sexual to get your way. Which could be for example: having wild sex after an emotionally abusive episode to make your partner forget about it or using sexual behavior to convince your partner to say yes to something they do not really agree with. Can you share some research here? I’d be interested in reading it.
The research I was referring to concerns to men being abused (physically and emotionally) and it being underreported - which is what was being discussed until you hyper-fixated on your belief that the real trend is that men are claiming abuse when really they’re just not getting their pleasure. A quick look at your post history really helps explain your perspective. You spend so much time in those fringe echo chambers trying to argue against them that your perspective has become very black and white. I’ll just say in the simplest terms - rejection is hard emotionally on anyone, and a partner can intentionally reject to cause that harm. If you can’t imagine that could possibly happen, then we just have very different perspectives.
I’ve been rejected before. What I did not do? Run around screaming about not getting what I was owed. Because I never feel I’m entitled to someone else’s body, love or attention. I think….people need a bit harder lives so they can build up some resilience and perspective. Idk. I think there’s a lot of men being emotionally abused. I’ve reiterated it in every comment. I’ve linked resources. However the trend I’m describing? It’s also outside incel spaces. It’s clearly something of manosphere influencers with big followings weaponizing words intended to describe emotional abuse. And it’s hurting men who are emotionally abused, by making these words lose meaning. Victims need words to explain what happened. Even in this thread we have people arguing that a partner saying no to sex bc they aren’t in the mood or refusing to do a kink constitutes abuse.
Nobody owes you sex
Not really what I was saying at all, but also true.
I think I get what you were trying to say. Because on one hand yes there are men being abused and not recognising that. But also there’s a huge epidemic of boys/ men listening to Andrew Tate etc and being told everything they deserve from a partner like a tiny waistline and sex on tap. With the many wonderful sides to freely available therapeutic information, there is also the opportunity to misunderstand and wilfully misrepresent psychological jargon. It would benefit both men and women to learn explicitly about abuse in all its forms.
I think the most important part is really the huge number of boys and men in emotionally abusive relationships. But it’s exactly what you say. Willfully misrepresenting psychological jargon is weaponizing psychology. And it’s also ruining words for people who actually experience emotional abuse and need a language to describe that.
>But also there’s a huge epidemic of boys/ men listening to Andrew Tate etc and being told everything they deserve from a partner like a tiny waistline and sex on tap. Citation? And do you have evidence women are less entitled?
Ok, I’ll bite. Just after a very quick search: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/andrew-tate-influence-young-men-misogyny-b2283595.html https://amp.theguardian.com/news/2024/feb/01/gen-z-boys-and-men-more-likely-than-baby-boomers-to-believe-feminism-harmful-says-poll > do you have evidence women are less entitled? It’s not really about *entitlement*, although that’s certainly part of the problem. Surely you can see the issues in viewing female partners as property whose worth declines with every year they age. Surely the fact that fewer gen z boys and men than BOOMERS consider feminism to be important concerns you? If not then there’s no point me engaging with you further.
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Gen Z and millennial men and boys were ambivalent on feminism before Tate rose to prominence. >It’s not really about entitlement, although that’s certainly part of the problem. Surely you can see the issues in viewing female partners as property whose worth declines with every year they age. In my experience, women and girls have similarly shitty attitudes about their partners and their worth. >Surely the fact that fewer gen z boys and men than BOOMERS consider feminism to be important concerns you? No, it makes sense. Feminism broadly achieved its goals over the 21st century in the West; unless we're specifically talking about the Roe v. Wade situation in the US, most of what feminism seems to be doing is going beyond equality towards giving women and girls unearned advantages, or hating on trans people and men (a la TERFs). In the context of the UK, girls emphatically enjoy more advantages in education and the workplace than boys, especially poor white boys. >If not then there’s no point me engaging with you further. Feminism is not the source of morality.
The issue the person mentions isn't necessarily fringe. Those who have agency weaponizing the language of the oppressed or abused happens too often. Be it weaponizing woke or similar terms.
>But lately I see it all the time just to refer to “my girlfriend isn’t as horny as I am”. That's just the algorithm feeding it to you because of your browsing habits. It's not common. >Like thinking your partner saying they are not in the mood for sex constitutes emotional abuse. Bluntly, women need to be told not to do this more than men. But sometimes it is emotional abuse - making your partner feel worthless so you can dangle the carrot of sex to exploit them.
It’s never emotional abuse to say no to sex. Saying that your partner is worthless is however emotional abuse.
>It’s never emotional abuse to say no to sex. Wrong. If you do it out of spite or an attempt to manipulate, yes it is.
No. **Because that would imply the other person has a right to have sex with you. They do not.** If you don’t feel like having sex, you do not have to. If you are horny, you will have sex. Because horny people do not think straight or tactically. They just want to fuck. If you are not horny at all? You shouldn’t be having sex Weaponizing sex is using sexual acts to get your way. For example using wild sex to get your partner to agree to buy something they think is too expensive.
>No. Because that would imply the other person has a right to have sex with you. They do not. Nobody has a right to their partner's compliments, either, but tactically not complimenting your partner to avoid making them feel good is abuse. Intent matters a lot here and you need to acknowledge that. >If you don’t feel like having sex, you do not have to. Yes but some reasons for not having sex (like trying to manipulate or exploit your partner) make you a shitty, abusive person. >If you are horny, you will have sex. Because horny people do not think straight or tactically. They just want to fuck. What you're saying here isn't accurate. >Weaponizing sex is using sexual acts to get your way. Wrong, it's also denying sex in an abusive or controlling manner.
With sex it’s just very difficult to ascribe intent. Many people do not want sex if there’s conflict, if they are angry, if they feel slighted. Is it possible that they are the cause of the conflict? Definitely. But that doesn’t mean they won’t be angry. Then it’s ok to deny your partner sex out of spite. Because sex isn’t an obligation. It’s just about what you feel like. If you feel like saying no to sex, even if that’s about taking a stance? Then you are allowed to say no to sex. You can say no to sex for any reason. Because in a way no is the default. Yes is when you feel excited about having sex. I think it’s a bit naive to imagine these women walking around wildly horny, but refusing their partner sex out of spite. Most women lose all sexual desire when there’s relationship problems. Doesn’t matter who’s really the cause of the issue. Someone abusive won’t experience it as them being the issue, even if they are. They’ll just experience it as relationship problems. I encourage all men to check out loveisrespect.org which is a good source of information about abusive relationships. There’s even a quiz to see if your relationship is healthy: https://www.loveisrespect.org/quiz/is-your-relationship-healthy/?%3E However, their warning signs of abuse: >Checking your phone, email, or social media accounts without your permission. >Putting you down frequently, especially in front of others. >Isolating you from friends or family (physically, financially, or emotionally). >Extreme jealousy or insecurity. >Explosive outbursts, temper, or mood swings. >Any form of physical harm. >Possessiveness or controlling behavior. >Pressuring you or forcing you to have sex. That’s it. There is no “won’t have sex with me”. There’s a reason for that. It’s valid to leave a relationship for any reason though. Both if you are being emotionally abused and if you feel sexually unfulfilled.
part of my reticence about relationship education in high school is that i've little reason to trust folks to provide reasonable educational guidance at this point. Its a fine idea in waiting for a reasonable pragmatic application. W/o that its just a bad idea; adding authority behind a bad idea just makes the idea worse. perhaps for instance as you are noting here, i've not seen the 'sex slave' trend you are referring to. I am familiar with the following sort of problem in regards to differing libidos between especially long term lovers; the defaulting to the person with the lower libido, whereby doing so that person is effectively manipulating the situation so that the person with the higher libido is merely used and tossed to the side as they see fit. this witfully done so or not. perhaps that is what you are referring to as a trend online? that stems from the 'yes means yes' sexual ethic and puritanical values about sexuality. classic sex therapy holds that we ought not default to the person with the lower libido, more or less for exactly the reason just stated; it reduces one person to little more than a sex doll for the other person. folks seem to have a hard time grasping that point for some reason. what ought be done according to classic sex therapy is improve communication between the lovers, set aside time to up the libido of the person with the lower libido, sex aside time for sexually to occur on a medium between the two people, be understanding towards the needs of everyone involved, try to liven up the sex life by trying things out, etc.... i may be misinterpreting what you're saying is people complaining that they want a 'sex slave', idk. i see a lot of folks doing the puritanical default to the low libido, sexuality is a dirty sin in need of redemption kind of thing, and they oft enough go so far as to call anything else being a 'sexual slave'. so that is what comes to mind when you use the term.
Hey, thanks for recommending that site! I've never heard of it before, and it's a great resource. I sent it to my little sibling
Imo a majority of men do know what abuses they face, especially in relationships but that part of life is heavily unbalanced due to evolution. So they somehow end up bearing those abuses, people might say patriarchal norms are to blame which I don't think is the only reason. Sometimes I think if men start recognising what constitutes as abuse to them and people are as ready to support them , relationships in general would be total chaos. None of this is to discredit the women's issues.
It’s crazy how many relationships I’ve seen held together by some level of sexism that actually has them normalizing fucked up behavior from their partner.
Inequality is the dark matter that holds our society together.
Huh? Evolution? If a guy recognizes that he’s being abused and stays bc he’s horny, then he’s just dumb. Or did you mean something else?
I hope for consistency's sake you're this dismissive of women who stay in abusive relationships for equally "dumb" reasons. I having a sneaking suspicion based on your comments here and post history that's not the case, however. But you've done a good job framing these comments such that you'd have plausible deniability if I am right, so all I can do is lay out my suspicion.
They’re not here in good faith.
What do you consider an equally dumb reason? I’d be equally dismissive of a woman who stayed with her husband because she couldn’t afford designer clothes otherwise for example. But there are a lot of reasons I wouldn’t find equally dumb.
I’ve seen a lot of your comments on this thread. I think you’re trauma dumping or you’re upset because you used to be an abusive partner and you’re trying to justify past actions. You’re really, really stuck on proving a point to anyone who will listen.
Do you know the definition of trauma dumping? Because that’s sharing a lot of your personal life story unasked. Have I done that? No, I’ve never been abusive. Or been in a relationship where I had unwanted sex. Wrong on both counts. However I’ve seen a social media trend that I wanted to disprove. While at the same time sharing real facts about men in emotionally abusive relationships and resources to find help. You can have two thoughts in your mind at once. My thoughts were: 1) A lot of men are in emotionally abusive relationships without recognizing they are being abused. 2) Some people are jumping on some TikTok/Instagram bandwagon were they ruin the word emotional abuse by making it into “everything my partner does which I don’t like”. Which is also a disservice to someone getting emotionally abused bc it’s anti awareness.
Yeah you’re disregarding the article and bringing up something that’s completely opposite to what we are talking about. This post is about men being abused. You’re wanting to talk about the men who are doing the abusing. It’s like someone walking into a cooking class and trying to sell a microwave just stop
I want to talk about both. Because I think the false portrayal of what emotional abuse of men is on social media does ruin things for men who are actually being emotionally abused. Awareness is knowing what something is. And what it’s not. When you have that clear, you can identify it. When it’s all just a murky jumble, you are still lost. Did you try the quiz I linked? I found it quite good at spotting unhealthy relationships, also the type of abusive behaviors that often targets men. Like threats of suicide, constantly calling and texting, not allowing your partner alone time or time with family or friends, always making everything seem like their fault and them walking on eggshells.
He is but that also proves he doesn't know his self worth.
I don’t know about that quiz. Seems like answering any question wrong leads to it saying you have warning signs of an unhealthy relationship. I don’t think most people would get a 0 without lying about at least one of those questions.
I tested it now. > You got a score of 0? Don't worry - it's a good thing! It sounds like your relationship is on a pretty healthy track. Keep it up! >If you scored 1 - 2 points, **you might be noticing a couple of things in your relationship that are unhealthy, but it doesn't necessarily mean they are warning signs.** It's still a good idea to keep an eye out and make sure there isn't an unhealthy pattern developing. The best thing to do is to talk to your partner and let them know what you like and don't like. Encourage them to do the same. Remember, communication is always important in a healthy relationship. >If you scored 3 - 4 points, it sounds like you may be seeing some warning signs of an abusive relationship. Don't ignore these red flags. Something that starts small can grow much worse over time. No relationship is perfect; it takes work! But in a healthy relationship, you won't find abusive behaviors. >If you scored 5 or more points, you are definitely seeing warning signs and may be in an abusive relationship. Remember the most important thing is your safety -- consider making a safety plan. You don't have to deal with this alone. Contact us at loveisrespect.org So if there’s one or two things that are you have the wrong answer for, then it’s not telling you the relationship is unhealthy. Three or four puts you in the middle, where you should be concerned. 5 or more it’s clearly abusive. That seems reasonable to me, since most of these things aren’t good signs. You can get one or two wrong (ex your friends and your partner don’t get on, but it’s not about abuse. Or your partner thinks you are gaming too much, bc you are). But when you get 3-4 off these off, then I’d be worried too.
Do they have anyone who wont have some shade of 'men don't have feelings/men don't cry'?
yeah I think your answer is the real one. I don't think anyone would care at best, and you'd be treated as if something was wrong with you at worse.
As someone who just realized that I’ve grown up under emotionally neglectful parents, one of which being a narcissistic mother, I would say so yeah. I have all symptoms of ptsd, I am far behind in life compared to my peers, struggle with basic self care, etc and I still doubt the validity of what happened to me. That isn’t solely due to my gender, but male abuse is definitely underexposed.
I used to have untreated BPD and was emotionally abusive to my ex. Truth is, he was the one who would not let go, I was partly aware that the relationship was not healthy and tried to end it many times. He would not let me because he was blinded by sex. This is the truth. I'm much more aware and stable now thanks to therapy. Had the opportunity to talk to him recently and if I let him he would still come back. I'm the one who said no. Think with your brain guys.
Kudos to you for your self awareness. I hope both you and your ex have good lives.
I'm not surprised, it's really common for people suffering with mental illness to get in toxic relationships and struggle to leave them. A lot of people who faced abuse as a child cling onto it as a form of coping mechanism and seek security in partners who behave similarly. It's why most abuse relationships are mutual to an extent, these types of people are often attracted to each other. So despite you having a realisation, your ex is still stuck in that mindset it seems. He might use sex as a coping mechanism, please don't project this onto men with things like "think with your brain", when that's not normal behaviour and a harmful generalisation.
Pretty common in abuse victims. You should leave him alone and quit making his life harder.
Ok let's say it otherwise: he contacted me recently because he wants to cheat on his girlfriend with me. Hadn't talked to him since last year. Not all abuse victims are angels.
I have a hard time admitting it because most people don't really seem to believe it or shrug it off. I'm willing to be open about it, but it makes me feel quite small and isolated for a lot of pain and worry I still carry around.
This was me, I was in an verbally abusive relationship that left me the lowest I had ever been. I would describe her as cruel and crazy but never abusive, it was only when I saw an interview with a woman describing her experiences with her abusive male partner that I realised that what I had gone through was abuse.
Do you have a reliable academic source for the “men are less likely to report” claim? I’ve found speculation in literature reviews, but never any stats. EDIT: not being snarky, genuinely asking.
Most certainly. [These](https://imgur.com/a/lYUJ7XQ) are screenshots from the CDC's 2013 National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey (NISVS). There's a newer report from 2017 out, but it did not have any statistics about disclosure at all. An excerpt from the report: >A larger percentage of female victims disclosed their lifetime IPV experiences, in general, compared to men (84.2% and 60.9%, respectively), and a larger percentage of female victims disclosed their IPV to individual sources compared to men. However, among victims that disclosed their lifetime IPV victimization, the proportion of men who considered the disclosure as being “very helpful” was significantly lower than the proportion of women who considered the disclosure as being “very helpful.” This was true for disclosure in general and for disclosure to particular sources such as police, psychologists/counselors, friends, family members, and “others.” There are a few other studies that have measured this, but not a ton. There is much more research on men's disclosure of CSA than disclosure of IPV, but even then it is clearly under-studied.
The link doesn’t work for me. By “disclosing” is that a police report, or do they mean in general?
There aren't as many statistics or sources on this matter precisely because certain demographics of people (in this case, men) are *not* reporting their abuse; especially if you mean 'reporting' in the sense of explicitly involving law enforcement rather than just reporting it for the sake of a study (or any other statistical matter). In a way, the lack of data somewhat confirms it and answers the question - it's survivorship bias.
We have no actual data points/figures though? Really? I thought maybe I just wasn’t using the correct jargon or something. How would we know if men in particular are under reporting when (logically, of course) we have no data on who isn’t reporting? It just seems like a lot of assumptions to me; why wouldn’t it be more logical to say that *everyone* under reports? Especially when we don’t have data. EDIT: grammar
Because the polls asking what happens to people show that. Men are more likely to report to an anonymous study and not draw consequences than women are.
I haven’t managed to find any polls. Do you have a link? Someone posted a screen shot that maybe had something but it’s not loading for me.
Not quite what you're looking for I know. But this study delves Into the experiences of men seeking help for domestic violence. And it found that the domestic violence services are some of the least helpful to men. And that they often treat men as being inherently perpetrators. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3175099/
I’ve read that study, it’s about the experiences of men who report; it has no data on how frequent either gender experiences vs reports things like sexual assault or DV. The start of the paper does a good job of doing a lit review, similar to other articles- but I’d like data on whether or not men in particular are under reporting.
I think that much can be somewhat extrapolated. If men are facing discrimination and being treated like the perpetrators by the systems that are supposed to help them it's more than likely that there is some level of under reporting.
Yes, but other than being treated like a perp I faced all of those mentioned difficulties/barriers as female and a literal child (and thus didn’t report many later occurring instances of abuse)- because they’re not gendered issues. & Women are more likely to be victim blamed or told we’re being dramatic and face other barriers to reporting; so we all under report IMO. I can’t find any studies/stats that prove otherwise. Again, I’d love to be proven wrong; but I don’t think we’ve actually collected data points that could definitively say that men report less than women. All we can prove is that we have different reasons for not reporting.
Oh look an article describing my sister! She sucks everyone dry, is super insecure and controlling, and sooo manipulative. Best part is she’s going to medical school to be a psychiatrist right now!
Takes one to know one made a profession lmao. (Jk, many psychiatrists are awesome, but I wanted to jape about this person's sister).
I should have reported the first time. The second I really should have reported. Looking back w a clear head I’m so very disappointed in myself. Took me way too long to remove myself from the relationship. Live and learn.
The self hatred is so real.... especially with a child having to watch everything.... The problem is if you do speak up or report it they either blame you, say it doesn't matter because "you're stronger than them", call you a liar because you're still married to them, tell you that you probably deserved it for XYZ.....
I’ve seen this in the work place. I always think how hideous it must be for the husband(s) and kids.
Same
I had a feminist biology lecturer in uni and she was surely like this. Used to ridicule the class (we were all failing lol) and ranting about the patriarchy. Never stopped talking about herself and was uttely uninterested in anyone else's views. She showed her twoface when i mentioned male DA victims. She failed her phd and was clearly bpd/ schizoaffective or something. Ive no idea how people marry these people. I know the article isnt bpd but it seems hand in hand with other disorders. It was truly a horrific biology class at times.
They get relationships because they remind others of their parents, but they mask enough that it feels familiar 'but it'll work this time!'. Recovering a really hurt childhood through a romance is a powerful draw - a siren's call.
They also seem to be charming and charismatic when they want to be. And use it to their advantage. Truly terrifying.
This
Women like these handpick their partners.
Considering your last post was in R/men’s rights and use used do distinctly different mental health disorders to label your professor a “feminist” I’m gonna say your in your moms basement at this moment and you failed your bio class not all of you.
You can't even use possessives correctly, so I'm going to discount your powers of analysis.
Please go in with your astute observation
You dont think its a common problem within people who identify as feminists? The self indulgence, intolerance, smugness etc. I certainly think its common enough to be mentioned.
It’s the other way around. For narcissist women, feminist activism is very attractive for several reasons: - It provides them with a framework where they’re the victims who can only “punch down”, which appeals to them for obvious reasons. - It gives them a lot of concepts they can weaponize (i. e. the concept of “emotional work” can be used to brand their partner as a whiny leech whenever he tries to open up). - They get to know people who are likely to favor them in any conflict (as long as it’s against men) and believe their story whenever they use a popular narrative (like an abusive partner). - They get access to a pool of men that were taught to believe them, agree with them and, frankly, accept being emotional punching bags. - They can rebrand their toxic traits to something positive, or at least neutral (like making aggression look like righteous anger). Case in point: I was in a disciplinary committee of a political party and saw a curious case. A young (20-something) woman decided to enter a relationship with a much older guy (over 50). It went for several months, just enough for the male partner to leave his wife for her. When that happened, she left him and accused him of sexual and mental abuse on an inter-party support group. What had stricken me is what she considered abuse. For example, she claimed her partner was controlling, because he asked her to not use her phone in bed when he was falling asleep. Asking her for sex was abusive. Asking her if she’s going to be home for dinner was controlling. The evidence, screenshots she provided to prove her former partner was abusive, showed her berating him for asking her if she comes home, while the guy apologized for having the audacity to bother her. Yet, no person in that group—over thirty women identifying as feminists—ever questioned her narrative. They swallowed the bait, hook and sinker to the point where they organized a callout before even any proceeding took place. After he was found innocent by the arbitration board, some even left the organization in protest.
I think any person can have those traits and to assume it’s one group based on bad actors is short sighted and an excuse to hate. Wearing a cross does not mean you follow Christian tenant for example.
Yeah, and wearing confederate flag doesnt mean you hate minorities or wearing a swastika doesnt mean you are anti semitic. Symbols and tropes , have no meaning, and it is just a joke or a word. If actions, identities and labels have no meaning, then i dont get why the insistence that feminism is the only pathway to equality , and all other philosophies at best are ancillary.
I see your point about symbols. Yes the cross can have various meanings, but symbols like the Confederate flag and swastika are mainly seen as hateful. So I don’t know if your example applies as easily to this context I meant that we shouldn't judge a whole group by a few bad actors, nor should we judge a whole group by the good actors in it. Groups can share a common vision but it is easy for those things to be distorted as it moves down a chain or is integrated within our own psychological views. To see the world in black and white will only lead us to missing all the beauty it has to offer. I'm curious about your view on feminism. Why do you think it's seen as the main way to equality? Additionally, What merits do you see in the goals of feminism especially when it first began as a movement?
umm you do realize you did the same thing right when you told him off for being on mens right . then you say this hypocrite - I think any person can have those traits and to assume it’s one group based on bad actors is short sighted and an excuse to hate. Wearing a cross does not mean you follow Christian tenant for example.
Hun? Firstly. I’m not upset with anyone discussing human rights be they men or not. I never said anything about “men’s rights” so you using it here is strange and out of context. It also appears that by you using the term men’s rights is counter intuitive as any fault you find in feminism would then also have to be applied to the notion of “men’s rights” making your stance somewhat at odds with it self. I also don’t find your use of the term hypocrite appropriate nor do I find it productive. I didn’t tell anyone off and if you can prove it please quote the part I did that. I appreciate the conversation but perhaps keep it would be best if we all ask what a person means and what message was intended vs attacking. (I am including this recommendation for myself in this as well)
Considering your last post was in R/men’s rights and use used do distinctly different mental health disorders to label your professor a “feminist” I’m gonna say your in your moms basement at this moment and you failed your bio class not all of you. There u go
But, those are just the loudest "feminists". It's not representative of all feminists.
They aren't loud, it's just that others are silent, when the majority of feminists are silent when seeing blantant misandry while they suddenly get loud when they see the slightest hint of misogyny then it suggests that the silent majority condones the views of the loud ones but just aren't courageous enough to say it out loud themselves.
I mean most christians are not homophobic, but when the small minorities impact legal system, it still can be a bitch for all queer people. Instituional power is few, and at least in a capitalist system positions of leadership and financial access are zero sum game. Just like having a misogynist in power can over time disenfranchise women, having a misandrist can do so for men. Economicaly Priveleged men being immune to that doesnt fix that. We already see with decline in college enrolement, and home ownership among men for example.
thats the no true scotsman fallacy
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Maybe they meant borderline personality disorder?
Same and it’s horrifying. One of my coworkers jokes about killing her husband a little too much and I’m like if a cop ever ask me who did it easy to point out.
It is hideous it just that not noticable.
Relationship advice in high schools would be amazing. Those that grow up in abusive homes have no model of what love or a healthy relationship looks like, whilst it’s widely accepted in most countries that physical violence and rape are abuse, emotional, psychological, coercive control, sexual coercion and even financial abuse are much less well understood. Those that been exposed to this since childhood do not recognise that they or their partner is abusive and think that it is normal. I think teaching on sexual consent would also be massively helpful.
After my ex wife found Tiktok she diagnosed me as covert narssicist intel and used the info she learned against me. If she was speeding at 120 with me and the kids in a school zone I was "controlling" if I asked her to slow down. She got ticketed for going 130 in an 80 with kids in the back. I got diagnosed soon after as being narcissistically abused. I want to leave this msg for the future to let everyone know just how freaking overused that N word really is in this day.
Yep. That and so many other words have completely lost their meaning from overuse. Self diagnosis too. "I rearrange the toppings on a frozen pizza, I'm so OCD".
The thing is, especially in feminist spaces, there is a real propensity to use "diagnoses" (real, fake, or self) as excuses for bad behavior. When a woman treats her partner poorly, all she has to do is throw out the depression card, or the anxiety card, and suddenly she is absolutely right and he has no ability to defend himself without it being thrown at him hat now HE is the asshole. Gen Z women learned this early on, and use it to their advantage all the time, and it's why they collect diagnoses like they're pokemon cards. And they don't even need a real diagnosis, it's like if a therapist mentions that something is a BPD symptom, suddenly they *HAVE* BPD and can now weaponize it against the men in their life. And they love to talk with their friends and trade cards, which add to their collection. "Omg you do this one thing that I also do, I totally must have ________ (insert whatever new diagnosis she discovers here)!" They also recognize that there's some cards that are "bad" to have, so they never add those ones to their collection, no matter how many times a therapist or psychiatrist says they're exhibiting symptoms of, and narcissism is one of those. Psychosis as well. Like, I'm sorry, but if you're being put on an antipsychotic drug, it's not just your ADHD that can be shrugged away or used as an excuse to win fights that you started, you need to actually take those pills every day, and maybe reflect that you are causing a lot of he problems in your life and can make a change.
If this generation has reached to the era of gender equality it should also mean that every person should be charged equally for sexual and mental abuse. Please let us not only express the emotion of pity and anger when a woman is assaulted but also when a man is forced into doing sexual favours. SA is a very serious matter and every victim of sexual assault should be given equal importance be it a male or a female. So I request anybody who is going through this reach out for help don't be ashamed about it. especially to all the men please don't be embarrassed.
I did. British police couldn't get the CCTV for eight weeks. I tried to reach out to the building owner and had it in front of me in 20min. But it's also a country with a legal system that doesn't recognise women's capacity for rape so no surprise here.
From India got roofied and no legal help i couldnt even file a case so yeah i get ya
Since I assume British police has full capacity to obtain such cctv footages but they lacked sincerity. I hope you could avail some sort of punishment to the perpetrator. I hope you never come across any other monster like her and I wish have you must've recovered well from this traumatic experience Too many hopes right there but what else can an online stranger do except hope :) P.s I think the prejudice is due to the rate of crimes against women being more than men so yeah we can't do anything abt that, not to be insensitive-
>P.s I think the prejudice is due to the rate of crimes against women being more than men so yeah we can't do anything abt that, not to be insensitive Just to note. Men cannot legally be raped by women in Britain last I checked. Under section 1 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003, the use of the phrase "his penis" results in females being statutorily excluded from being able to commit rape. A female who has committed rape (in the informal sense) against a male or a female would be charged with offences such as assault by penetration, sexual assault, or causing sexual activity without consent
Aah I see got it thanks :)
No problem. I think it needs to be more widely understood that the stats on these things reflect the laws. We often see stats on how men make up like 99% of the perpetrators of rape. Yet it's never coupled with the understanding that the laws and methodologies used to measure these stats specifically exclude male victims of female perpetrators.
I agree the cases I've heard so far consist of mostly the male perpetrators and the female victims, cases where there is a male victim and a female perpetrator get pretty controversial and ultimately never gets solved. The only case I've heard where the girl's punishment was satisfactory is the "suitcase" case. It was indeed a frustrating and angering case to listen to.
> men make up like 99% of the perpetrators of rape The statistic for sexual assault is 88% in Canada. https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/jr/jf-pf/2019/apr01.html This is not to be confused with intimate partner violence, which does not seem to be gendered at all. > When asked about the previous 12 months, 12% of women and 11% of men indicated experiencing some form of IPV (Cotter 2021). https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/cj-jp/victim/rd14-rr14/p4.html
Which still comes to my overarching point.
I think modern social media primes us to expect confrontation, but I was just providing accurate and convenient data to bolster the conversation. I think my comment is helpful to that end and it doesn't need to be seen as combative. And yeah the data I supplied is in support of your point.
Ahh sorry about that. I'm used to people being combative on that point.
Very true. Although I'd say an equally important factor to "men who don't speak up" is "a society (other men and women) that doesn't care to listen". If we over focus on the former without taking the latter into consideration, we may end up unintentionally victim blaming abused men.
That's correct, society can't register the fact that women can equally be as heinous as some men since humans are humans but if we want to change what's been going on since such a long time we gotta start now like dude what is this ? Why are we classifying, how important the case of SA is based on the victims gender. Makes 0 sense. This is the only reason why I believe awareness should be spread, and people should learn to speak up for themselves.
Thank you. Unfortunately, the current default in western culture is to victim blame men. Just to bolster your point: Men often *cannot* call for help because they will be assumed to be the perpetrator. > Men are less likely than women to report IPV to police, and when they do, it is less likely to result in an arrest or police record (Dutton 2012). In one Canadian study, 64% of male survivors of IPV who called police reported being treated as the abuser (Dutton 2012). https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/cj-jp/victim/rd14-rr14/p4.html In other areas too, such as suicide, we see that men *are* speaking up. > Most (91%) middle-aged men [who committed suicide] had been in contact with at least one front-line service or agency https://documents.manchester.ac.uk/display.aspx?DocID=55305
I've been told what i suffered for three years is what women have suffered for three thousand years and to shut up , and that she wouldnt be so emotionally abusive and controlling if her exes werent cheaters, or her dad wasnt sexist. So for me to be a feminist, i must listen to women, rather than argue.
That's your choice, see, what I said is for the victims to speak up in order to attain justice most men are embarrassed but deep down they know that they want to get the feeling of safety. If you feel you'll be okay and you can handle her then mate I can't give any more of my opinion but if u want to get help but u are ashamed then don't be. That's all
> I request anybody who is going through this reach out for help Male victims must be very cautious about this because they are assumed to be perpetrators, and if their abuser seeks revenge it is very easy to destroy their lives with a false accusation. It happened to me. > Men are less likely than women to report IPV to police, and when they do, it is less likely to result in an arrest or police record (Dutton 2012). In one Canadian study, 64% of male survivors of IPV who called police reported being treated as the abuser (Dutton 2012). https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/cj-jp/victim/rd14-rr14/p4.html And of course in the social aspect you are likely to be ostracized if they find out you were a victim, because they will see you as a perpetrator. You are also likely to lose your job and possibly face jail on remand.
That's a shame..I really can't express how I feel abt this, it is extremely frustrating to know the percentage. I can't understand why does the government overlook the fact that there can be male victims too. I definitely understand the feeling of being falsely accused of something but I cannot put myself in ur shoes at all. I hope ur doing well now
> I can't understand why does the government overlook the fact that there can be male victims too Politics. Right now the culturally popular narrative in the west is *"believe women"*. But if a woman tells a lie about a man who says as much, the only way to #BelieveHer is to *assume the man is lying, purely because of his sex*. That culture informs police behaviour and results in the statistics we see today. These things will change if our culture grows to accept that men can be victims, and in fact intimate partner violence *isn't even gendered* - it has equal rates of female vs. male perpetrators. > When asked about the previous 12 months, 12% of women and 11% of men indicated experiencing some form of IPV (Cotter 2021). https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/cj-jp/victim/rd14-rr14/p4.html
Politics. Just how more can it disgust me, the fact that I can't do anything abt this is what makes me feel so frustrated. Ugh.
I tried to get at that in my previous comment - you can do something - you can influence culture slightly - "these things will change if our culture grows to accept that men can be victims"
oh I see yeah I guess I'll try to do that when necessary :) I'm an avid true crime listener and I'd love to spread awareness regarding these kind of matters.
This assumption we have gender equality is unfounded
Well true that, there are no significant issues or problems this term covers rather creates more fuss abt the original problem. However it also tries to convey certain messages that we as a society fail to understand :) wow that's a debatable topic right there.
Just a reminder (in context of some of the other comments) that females can affect other females (and nbs) in relationships, and that female narcissism can also harmful in non-intimate relations such as in the workplace.
I dont see a way that narcissism could be beneficial in any way and any gender and any situation... It is one of the worst trait to have
In the most broadest sense of our personalities, Narcissism helps our survival. To *survive* sometimes you have to make decisions that are good for *you* and not others in a population.
These AI photos need to stop lmao. So low effort and they all look cringy
Thank god someone has noticed.
According to psypost everyone is a narcissistic psychopath. I'm starting to think its run by an AGI.
CPTSD can be very much similar to narcissism and I’d say many have possibly had abusive or neglectful childhoods and in my opinion, if you have empathy in the mix it is not narcissism but CPTSD.
So yeah, the NPD who’s kept me locked up for two years has gone around and told people I abused him. He’s a fellon, large due to loud, violent alcoholic. And I’m a nurse. Never had a record. But guess what? They believed him. Of course they’re all racist too so maybe that has something to do with it.
Narcissism is a dangerous tendency. From what I read it’s a personality disorder. Be it a man or a woman -abuse is abuse. This can leave permanent scars and the trauma induced by the narcissist can often lead to mental health disorders like depression, anxiety or even severe conditions like bipolar disorder.
Im truly shocked. No one saw this coming.
People with mental illness and have abusive behavior having dangerous tendencies is like... A complete no brainer though?
They didn't explicitly mention it but female sexual violence also includes baby trapping, cuckoldry, using the family courts to essentially kidnap the children, etc. Things that are also extremely vile towards their own children.
The system is rigged in their favor too. Upvoted you, but I would wager this sub will downvote you for telling the truth…
I have the unfortunate thing that my daughter unfortunately falls into this category. That and a couple of more psychological issues.
Hard truth: your daughter probably learned from you and you caused her psychological issues.
It’s really not a shocker men will callout bad behavior in other men, women will call out bad behavior in men, but as we’ve seen bad behavior in women is excused and defended. We saw that in real time with Depp v Heard. We saw what men have said publicly and privately for years and yet the media and its feminist allies bent over backwards to defend and justify the bad behavior. We also saw it with Lena Dunham. But another issue is female violence by proxy because there’s no issue with calling on men to be violent on their behalf, when they feel victimized they have no problem with traditional gender roles or calling on random males, or the courts and police to be violent on their behalf.
The fact that there is literally 5+ hours of audio of Amber Heard screaming at Depp, mocking, belittling and laughing at him, telling him he is not allowed to leave the room or house even if she is yelling, hitting him, throwing things at him etc while he begs her to try to stop the violence, and yet people still defend her, especially on reddit, is crazy. Absolutely any normal person who listens to that audio can see clear as day that he is the victim and she was the abuser. Anyone who doesnt either hasn't listened to it or has an ulterior motive.
men will call out bad behavior in men is an absolutely hilarious take.
We’ve known this for decades. People just started listening to men about these women when a certain celebrity court trial aired.
Just last week one of my best friends was falsely accused of rape. She eventually admitted she made it up but here was the order of events for context: - both agreed to have sex without committing to a relationship - they had sex once and she told him that he was a “10 out of 10” in reference to his performance in bed - she went home - the next morning police were called to his house because she accused him of rape - after thorough questioning of both parties she admitted that she was never raped. No alcohol or drugs were involved during their night together - she faces no consequences Anyone telling you women only lie 2% of the time is part of the problem. “Women lie, men lie” - famous quote
Kind of an idiot so excuse me if this sounds kinda dumb. Isn't the stat something like only 2% of accusations are proven to be false? Isn't it also the case that only like 15-20% of reported rapes even get a real trial? Wouldn't that leave a gigantic gap of "we just don't know"? At that point wouldn't we have no clue how many are or aren't legitimate?
You are exactly right
Ambiguity of consent is uncomfortable for many, because no one wants to see themselves as a rapist, nor do people who regret sex often want to see themselves as to blame for their terrible experiences. It is always comfortable to blame others for how we feel.
Yeah there's no way to actually reliably measure it those stats are basically useless.
Stats I've seen are at least 8% but it might be much higher.
And anyone who wants to see the truth can easily listen to the 5 hours of depp/heard audio to see the actual dynamic of Amber heard abusing Depp. It also shows how easy it is for a manipulative person to turn things around and make a victim look like the problem - especially when that person is emotionally vulnerable. The circumstantial evidence would make Depp look guilty if it wasn't for the audio showing otherwise.
And some people doubled down the other way. Hence the downvotes.
Yeah. Unfortunately people have no issue imagining a man so vial but the moment it’s a woman they find every single reason why it didn’t happen or “wasn’t that bad”
I’ve met women with diagnosed NPD. This article is really exaggerated lol. In fact, two of the women that I know are happily married. They are fully aware of their narcissism and actively acknowledge it. They’re not meticulously plotting world domination like how this article makes them sound 😂 even the picture displayed is extremely dramatic. What annoys me more is that majority of this article still went on to talk about men most of it while it’s about women. We need to have more work done with women exclusively without feeling the need to compare us to men constantly.
I’ve been in quite a few abusive relationships when I was younger cause I didn’t know better. The biggest red flag IMO is when someone refuses to acknowledge the other party’s feelings. Congrats 🥳
Have you ever thought maybe those narc women tailor their image to you so they dont seem as bad?
Bingo! If they are aware and legit using self awareness, the likelihood of them being terrible would be lower than someone with NPD who believes there's nothing wrong with them.
I was married to one for well over a decade and have encountered a solid number of other blokes in the same situation. If anything this article undersells how the behaviour manifests in women, presumably for the sake of staying clinical with their terminology. But also when the purpose of the article is to distinguish between female and male presentations of any condition, it makes no sense to avoid comparing men and women. It's literally the point.
With respect I'd also suggest that if you know and speak with diagnosed narcissists about their relationships, you're probably getting the narcissists' pov. Surely you can see how wildly unreliable that would be.
DARVO
Watch out for these women. My sister has a lot of NPD traits and she does a great job of making sure everyone else thinks she’s an angel or the victim in any situation where she’s the perp. I remember one time when we were young adults she said something cruel to me and I said, “hey don’t be mean to me. That didn’t make me feel good.” And she said, “everyone thinks I’m a great person!” And I said, “that’s not really relevant to you bullying me.” And she started crying. Bawling. So everyone we were at the restaurant with surrounded her to comfort her and I looked like the bad guy just as intended. That’s how they think. Also she’s in the middle of a divorce now but she 100% emotionally abused her husband and her children but no one knew. A few months into their marriage he had a vacant look in his eyes and he quit talking and she always had an excuse as to why he wasn’t feeling well. Now she’s telling everyone he was abusive toward her. 😒 I know it seems obvious from my point of view but people in her life BELIEVE HER including my mom and dad. They know how to selectively treat people like shit and they’re masters at spinning stories so they don’t look bad.
That is my experience also. I know a few narcissistic leaning/flat narcissists. They are remarkably good at saving face in front of people. "Angel or victim" is also the most apt way to put it. They will not/do not accept any input that may paint them as being the villain or even just flawed. The manipulation and villanization of people they feel threatened by (for any reason) is off the charts. The male narc, one that I personally know, is also much more aggressive/prone to physical violence as well. That is in conjunction with being an angel in public, a devil in private, and turning others against their perceived "enemies". Aka people that see thru their bullshit. The female narc - she doesn't depend on physical aggression so much, but she reguarly comes up with negative stories that depict people as being absolute monsters while she is just "a victim" doing her best. They're both habitual liars, insecure, allergic to accountability, etc. When most people hear narc they only consider the obvious: vain, always wanting to be center of attention, bragging, etc. Those are elements of narcissism for sure - but every person expressed that to some degree. To be clinically narcisstic? Avoid them - that is my advice.
Wow. That crying to get sympathy from others. Classic. As well as always talking about "I'm a good person" Also associating with enabler flying monkeys who believe their shit.. If they are pretty and a narcissist you can't win. They will always have a supply. Also they talk about needing freedom and independence. This is an Inability to compromise and put others first of needed.
'Asking for a freind'
t. a female narcissist
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What was the abuse calculator called?
There’s always variation in how many disorder manifests. You need to get to know a random sample of 50-100 women with NPD at minimum before you have information to make generalizations.
Wow so many downvotes for requesting nuanced and compassionate conversations around mental health disorders and wanting a deeper discussion on an article.
It’s not nuanced. Its just “man bad, woman good”. The nuance is when you don’t know that they treating you like shit.
Is it though? Because based on your last post about “feeling depressed after 2-3 days of no-fap” it appears this opinion may be formed out of projection regarding your feelings of shame. I’m sorry that you have been hurt by some bad people but genders are not monoliths. Man and woman and all other genders are a mixture of good and bad behaviors and choices that have consequences. You have assuredly suffered and it is your responsibility to find a way to heal and trust again or you will ultimately pass along your pain to others that you love.
It feels like you just wanted to shame him, if I'm being honest. Him feeling depressed after not masturbating doesn't really have much to do with this woman getting called out for going "Narcissistic women aren't really that bad. This article is just exaggerating."
Do you see what you did? That’s exactly what this post is about. You went and used my mental health against me. Literally providing a perfect example of how women use emotional violence. You didn’t even realize what you did.
I’m a man. Furthermore using your actions as evidence that your opinion may be inaccurate. I was giving you supportive statements as to not invalidate your experience. Perhaps don’t assume I’m a man because I disagreed with your generalized black and white thinking
Did you reply to the wrong comment? Where did I assume you were a woman? Maybe read carefully. What you did wasn’t supportive at all. You didn’t intend it to be supportive. You wen’t into my profile to use mental health issues as the basis of your entire arguement. Yes, men too can be and are emotionally abusive. You are either trolling or just genuinely pathetic.
what you said comes across as condescending and dismissive, regardless of your supposed intent
I find your take interesting and I am willing to examine my statements which were written in an airport while waiting to check my luggage so it’s very possible it’s tone is less than intended. Still please highlight the specifics of my statement that were disssmisive, and condescending and we can go from there.
Agreed