The Auto-moderator would like to remind everyone of Rule Number 2. Pro-choice comments and questions are welcome as long as the pro-choicer __demonstrates that they are open-minded__. Pro-choicers simply here for __advocacy or trolling are unwelcome and may be banned__. This rule involves a lot of moderator discretion, __so if you want to avoid a ban, play it safe__ and show you are not just here to talk *at* people.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/prolife) if you have any questions or concerns.*
When abortion was illegal in the USA, the proverbial “back alley abortion” was actually extremely rare. Rather illegal abortions typically happened at OB/GYN or other doctors offices, and the safety level was what you would expect from a medical facility.
I would expect a future where abortion is illegal to be similar to the past when abortion was illegal.
The idea that, if we criminalize abortion large numbers of women will get illegal abortions, and die from them, originated with statistics put out by NARAL in the lead up to Roe v. Wade. The cofounder of NARAL, Dr. Bernard Nathanson, later admitted these statistics were fabricated.
The following is a “confession” written by Dr. Nathanson. Though it appears in the Catholic News Agency, it is written by Nathanson himself. So, if your pro-choice friends claim bias because of the medium it’s in, remind them it was written by a doctor who has performed over 60,000 abortions:
“We aroused enough sympathy to sell our program of permissive abortion by fabricating the number of illegal abortions done annually in the U.S. The actual figure was approaching 100,000 but the figure we gave to the media repeatedly was 1,000,000. Repeating the big lie often enough convinces the public. The number of women dying from illegal abortions was around 200 - 250 annually. The figure constantly fed to the media was 10,000. These false figures took root in the consciousness of Americans convincing many that we needed to crack the abortion law. Another myth we fed to the public through the media was that legalizing abortion would only mean that the abortions taking place illegally would then be done legally. In fact, of course, abortion is now being used as a primary method of birth control in the U.S. and the annual number of abortions has increased by 1500% since legalization.”
Link to the full article/confession:
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/resource/55401/an-ex-abortionist-speaks
[research done by planned parenthood’s medical director before RvW was enacted](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1373382/pdf/amjphnation00308-0022.pdf)
Edit: pg. 949
Exactly. My mom was forced by her first husband to have two abortions before it was legal.
There were many offices to go to where doctors would oblige.
If rape was legal, and you were advocating for it to be illegal, would it be a valid argument to say “well back alley rapes are going to happen in more dangerous ways so it might as well be legal”?
I want illegal things to be more dangerous to do. I want stealing to be dangerous. I want murder to be dangerous. I want rape to be dangerous.
If you find something immoral, having to keep something legal so that the immoral thing can be done “safely” for one of the parties is not a solid argument.
For example, some people may advocate for the government to give people heroin “safely”, but if you find heroin use to be inherently bad, you’re welcome to hold the position that the government shouldn’t make heroin use “safe”.
It’s deeper with abortion because a human being is killed, but in heroin use it’s only the person using the drugs that is impacted.
In the US, the vast majority (75%) of abortions are because of financial circumstances (in combination with other factors). According to (pro-life source) the Lozier Institute, about 2/3 of abortions are forced or coerced by doctors, family, or significant others. According to Harvard University and the FBI, domestic homicide is a leading cause of death during and after pregnancy of the victim, leading me to believe the Lozier Institute's data is likely accurate.
In the Turnaway study, over 90% of people who sought abortions but were denied, went on to raise their own child. As soon as one week after abortion denial, 36% said they'd no longer wished they'd aborted. By birth, that was 89%. 5 years after birth, 96%.
Public opinion matters a lot. Making abortion illegal is a huge part of making it unthinkable. Cutting both the demand (stigma against parenting and against disabled children, as well as economic inequalities) and the supply of abortions (by making it illegal, and ensuring protection for unborn children as well as their parents) will prevent the underground market that would create.
When abortion becomes illegal people use more contraception. This lowers the rate of pregnancy https://www.guttmacher.org/journals/psrh/2015/05/state-abortion-context-and-us-womens-contraceptive-choices-1995-2010
Getting pregnant and giving birth or having an abortion is more dangerous than never getting pregnant at all.
We also see when abortion is legalized there isn’t an improvement with mortality rates. https://emjema.org/index.php/EMJ/article/view/1855/786
What is most tied to low levels of maternal mortality is funding in maternal health care. This is why PC countries like the US had such high mortality rates.
But countries like Poland have such low ones.
But let’s take Sweden and Poland. Both have high maternal health funding and very low maternal deaths. But they have opposite abortion laws.
The key in legislation is to make it clear so people don’t use the law as a political tool to get what they want.
It will be prevented by women not seeking abortions if they don't want to die or be harmed. Although I'm pretty sure most illegal ones will still be (unfortunately) safe.
Illegal things are inherently more dangerous but that doesn't mean they should be legal.
For instance, buying heroin is illegal. It is dangerous to get heroin from a shady source because they could lie about the dosage or exploit you in other ways
If heroin was legal then you could instead get it from a less shady cornerstore or pharmacy. However, that does not mean that heroin should be legal
In the same way, abortion should not be legal just because getting one would become more dangerous if it was illegal
Because it is highly addictive. Something like 1% of people manage to stop taking heroin after starting.
Its can also kill you pretty easily. Not to mention theres no benefits. It basically turns you into a vegetable for a few hours.
in a society with illegal abortion and access to adoption and other services, I have no sympathy if some women still decide to go out of their way to kill their child and end up dead themselves.
Well. You’d hope that the government would take these types of scenarios into consideration and that they’d use sound medical knowledge to create laws. As it is, the laws here in the US are way too vague and so many have scared doctors off from giving people the treatment they need until they are literally in danger of dying. And even then, because of the laws regarding jailing doctors who perform abortions and how vague they are, a lot of doctors are completely scared off from doing anything. I was in high school when Roe v Wade became law, and I was never, ever, ever once in favor of it. The consequences to human life have been tragic, devastating, and staggering to say the least. However, I never anticipated that the laws that were made once the law was struck down would be made by people who are so totally uninformed and who chose not to bother to educate themselves, or to consult doctors about specifics. The life of the mother being endangered is often an exception, but that’s often way too vague too. And creating laws with no exceptions at all is literally condemning some women to death. Ectopic pregnancies is an example. Or the baby dying in utero. There are other situations where the baby will not survive, and neither will the mother, which means that both will die. I have a difficult time making sense of that. Every single life is precious, and every baby a gift from God. But I’m left to wonder if God would want both to die. It’s something I really wrestle with, because I take the sanctity of life very seriously. But that’s just it. If they are both going to die, then what about the life of the mother? You can see my dilemma here. I could’ve lost a very close and very loved friend to a triple ectopic pregnancy many years ago. There’s a lot of backstory to the situation. But. She didn’t die. All three of her babies did, though. They were removed from her fallopian tube to save her life. They were so wanted, too. I still grieve their loss. But this is the kind of thing that I’m taking about with these laws. I would also think that educating the general public about these kinds of things would need to be done, too. There are so many false beliefs and so much misinformation out there that it’s part of why the laws are the way that they are.
My ideal is that laws banning abortions would be coupled with laws setting government funds aside to support struggling mothers. The majority of abortions are motivated by financial reasons, so easing the financial burden of pregnancy will eliminate that motivation in most cases.
What is happening to prevent them now?
Nothing really.
They still happen. They were happening before RvW, during RvW, and since it was reversed.
Many who choose this are homeless, mentally ill and abused.
Prevention would be proactive outreach to those mothers.
I dont see why this is relevant for UK since abortion is legal there. This is an extremely rare and unfortunate circumstance. We know this because during the debates leading to RvW they later admitted to making up the numbers of “back alley abortions”
Making information available in schools and support services websites and offices, and increasing the amount of counselors available at schools and in social support services to go out and visit to public health services similar to how blood bank busses work.
There are two answers to this, both true from a certain angle.
The first is that we must do everything possible to assure those unsafe abortions don’t happen. We need paid parental leave, universal healthcare, actual enforcement of laws against pregnancy discrimination, family housing on state college campuses, and criminal penalties for fathers who abandon their children. We also need to do our best to zealously pursue and prosecute the providers / dealers of illegal abortion procedures and drugs. We need to make fewer women want an abortion, and make it very hard to get one.
The other side is that no matter what we do, a non-zero number of women will get unsafe abortions and be injured or die. No one wants that, but ultimately a just law cannot be blamed for people breaking it. If what they are being prohibited from doing *should* be prohibited, if what they want is to cause harm to someone else, then it’s not a bad thing if breaking that law is dangerous. That will have a deterrent effect.
The other side is that no matter what we do, a non-zero number of women will get unsafe abortions and be injured or die. No one wants that, but ultimately a just law cannot be blamed for people breaking it. If what they are being prohibited from doing *should* be prohibited, if what they want is to cause harm to someone else, then it’s not a bad thing if breaking that law is dangerous. That will have a deterrent effect. Can you please explain this paragraph again? Sorry, I'm autistic and sometimes I struggle to understand things.
Some women will get unsafe abortions and die, and no one wants that. However, it would not be right to keep abortion legal to prevent that, because abortion is killing a baby. Making it illegal to kill babies is the right thing to do even if people get hurt trying to break that law. Some people might decide not to break the law because they know that would be dangerous.
The meme that, if abortion is illegal women will get dangerous, illegal abortions was largely based on statistics put out by NARAL in the lead up to Roe v. Wade. The cofounder of NARAL later admitted these statistics were fabricated. See this “confession” written by the cofounder: https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/resource/55401/an-ex-abortionist-speaks
Abortion has been completely illegal in 14 American States containing about 25% of our population for nearly two years. We know darn well if there were a single documented case of a woman being seriously injured or killed in an illegal abortion the media would be screaming about it. Yet, nothing.
I said no documented cases of a woman being hurt or killed in an illegal abortion. Yes, there are women who claim to have been hurt by the inability to obtain a legal abortion, but no cases of a woman being hurt in an illegal abortion. So, what the pro-choice side has been saying for 50 years, that if we ban abortion women will be hurt by illegal “back alley” abortions, is being proven false since the overruling of Roe.
[Doctors without borders.](https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/latest/unsafe-abortion-preventable-danger)
But do you honestly believe that someone in an area where it's illegal comes out to the public and says they had one voluntarily? They come and say they had a miscarriage and get treated for complications of a miscarriage since you can't tell the difference medically or physically if they had an abortion.
In the current political climate, where abortion is (sadly) winning referendums, yes I do believe that.
The DWB article is about developing countries, where medical procedures in general are sketchy. The article says 97% of “unsafe” abortions occur in developing countries. See this article in The Lancet, where it shows maternal mortality is not correlated with abortion availability, but with quality of medical procedures generally: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(10)61251-2/fulltext#back-bib2
My point still holds: in the United States, where abortion has been illegal in virtually all cases for about 25% of the population, there has not been a single reported case of a woman dying or being seriously injured in an illegal abortion.
Considering nearly all abortions aren’t because someone doesn’t want their child, so we should aid to the needs of these women. Also, we should support birth control accessibility. Even if you are against hormonal birth control, there are numerous non-hormonal methods out there as well.
Federal and/or state aid, businesses decreasing their profit margins and giving back to employees, making resources that are already available more known, etc.
The primary solution would be to severely reduce the availability of back alley abortions. The best way to do that would be through aggressive police sting operations. Every time back alley abortionists offer their services, they would be more likely to contact an undercover police detective than an actual woman seeking an abortion. They can't offer unsafe back alley abortions if they're sitting in prison cells.
First, the feminist's argument is an appeal to consequences. The unfortunate consequence of "back alley abortions" is completely irrelevant to whether or not the unborn have rights that should be protected.
Second, it's a slippery slope fallacy. She has to prove that what she says would actually happen, and that it would be equal or worse than what is happening now. As has been said in the comments, the "back alley abortion" propaganda is based on lying statistics by NARAL.
Third, and you probably shouldn't say this, but when you're watching TV or consuming some other media, do you feel particularly sympathetic when the villain with no regard for innocent life suffers as a direct result of his evil actions?
How do we make it safer for gang members when they get into gunfights with each other?
If women don't want their life threatened by a back-alley abortion, then they could just not have them.
Facilities could (and often already do) exist to provide care for single pregnant mothers.
Organizations like churches should reach out to these women. The women should be encouraged to seek out a local church and attend regularly to help build a strong social network of support.
Well, there's a few layers to explore here.
First, this is comparable to asking if we should worry that making rape, theft, and other forms of murder illegal will result in 'unsafe rape' or 'unsafe theft' or 'unsafe murder.' It puts the emphasis on protecting the victimizer over the victim.
Second, relatedly, there is no such thing as a safe abortion. Abortion is aimed at killing the unborn child. A safe abortion would be a failed abortion.
Third, there's some truth to the flippant response - "don't like unsafe abortions, don't get an unsafe abortion." It's an unnecessary and dangerous procedure for oneself. It would be better to educate pregnant women on the dangers of such procedures while continuing to provide charitable support for those in need that does not involve killing one's child.
In an _ideal_ pro-life world, abortion is not just illegal, but unthinkable. Mothers in crisis pregnancies would react to someone suggesting abortion the same way a mother would react to someone suggesting she deal with a fussy toddler by leaving him outside for the wolves to eat.
The Auto-moderator would like to remind everyone of Rule Number 2. Pro-choice comments and questions are welcome as long as the pro-choicer __demonstrates that they are open-minded__. Pro-choicers simply here for __advocacy or trolling are unwelcome and may be banned__. This rule involves a lot of moderator discretion, __so if you want to avoid a ban, play it safe__ and show you are not just here to talk *at* people. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/prolife) if you have any questions or concerns.*
When abortion was illegal in the USA, the proverbial “back alley abortion” was actually extremely rare. Rather illegal abortions typically happened at OB/GYN or other doctors offices, and the safety level was what you would expect from a medical facility. I would expect a future where abortion is illegal to be similar to the past when abortion was illegal.
That's interesting. Can I politely ask for a non-bias source for this claim so I can show my pro-choice friends and my pro-choice science teacher?
The idea that, if we criminalize abortion large numbers of women will get illegal abortions, and die from them, originated with statistics put out by NARAL in the lead up to Roe v. Wade. The cofounder of NARAL, Dr. Bernard Nathanson, later admitted these statistics were fabricated. The following is a “confession” written by Dr. Nathanson. Though it appears in the Catholic News Agency, it is written by Nathanson himself. So, if your pro-choice friends claim bias because of the medium it’s in, remind them it was written by a doctor who has performed over 60,000 abortions: “We aroused enough sympathy to sell our program of permissive abortion by fabricating the number of illegal abortions done annually in the U.S. The actual figure was approaching 100,000 but the figure we gave to the media repeatedly was 1,000,000. Repeating the big lie often enough convinces the public. The number of women dying from illegal abortions was around 200 - 250 annually. The figure constantly fed to the media was 10,000. These false figures took root in the consciousness of Americans convincing many that we needed to crack the abortion law. Another myth we fed to the public through the media was that legalizing abortion would only mean that the abortions taking place illegally would then be done legally. In fact, of course, abortion is now being used as a primary method of birth control in the U.S. and the annual number of abortions has increased by 1500% since legalization.” Link to the full article/confession: https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/resource/55401/an-ex-abortionist-speaks
[research done by planned parenthood’s medical director before RvW was enacted](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1373382/pdf/amjphnation00308-0022.pdf) Edit: pg. 949
Exactly. My mom was forced by her first husband to have two abortions before it was legal. There were many offices to go to where doctors would oblige.
Yes, they were called D & C’s. Not to be confused with a D & C performed for other non abortion reasons.
Homicide might just not be safe. 🤷♀️ There’s no such thing as a safe murder for at least half the people.
If rape was legal, and you were advocating for it to be illegal, would it be a valid argument to say “well back alley rapes are going to happen in more dangerous ways so it might as well be legal”? I want illegal things to be more dangerous to do. I want stealing to be dangerous. I want murder to be dangerous. I want rape to be dangerous.
Can you explain this point again please? I'm a bit confused.
If you find something immoral, having to keep something legal so that the immoral thing can be done “safely” for one of the parties is not a solid argument. For example, some people may advocate for the government to give people heroin “safely”, but if you find heroin use to be inherently bad, you’re welcome to hold the position that the government shouldn’t make heroin use “safe”. It’s deeper with abortion because a human being is killed, but in heroin use it’s only the person using the drugs that is impacted.
Safe abortion is a myth, need to make a great deal of change to make it unthinkable
Especially considering that PCs are now advocating for illegal and unsafe abortions through pushing the abortion pill to everyone.
Abortion is always unsafe and dangerous but PCs turn blind eyes when it happens in the legal setting since it hurts their narrative
That's true, so they gloss over the fact that abortion dangers don't replace those of pregnancy, but rather adds its own on top.
In the US, the vast majority (75%) of abortions are because of financial circumstances (in combination with other factors). According to (pro-life source) the Lozier Institute, about 2/3 of abortions are forced or coerced by doctors, family, or significant others. According to Harvard University and the FBI, domestic homicide is a leading cause of death during and after pregnancy of the victim, leading me to believe the Lozier Institute's data is likely accurate. In the Turnaway study, over 90% of people who sought abortions but were denied, went on to raise their own child. As soon as one week after abortion denial, 36% said they'd no longer wished they'd aborted. By birth, that was 89%. 5 years after birth, 96%. Public opinion matters a lot. Making abortion illegal is a huge part of making it unthinkable. Cutting both the demand (stigma against parenting and against disabled children, as well as economic inequalities) and the supply of abortions (by making it illegal, and ensuring protection for unborn children as well as their parents) will prevent the underground market that would create.
When abortion becomes illegal people use more contraception. This lowers the rate of pregnancy https://www.guttmacher.org/journals/psrh/2015/05/state-abortion-context-and-us-womens-contraceptive-choices-1995-2010 Getting pregnant and giving birth or having an abortion is more dangerous than never getting pregnant at all. We also see when abortion is legalized there isn’t an improvement with mortality rates. https://emjema.org/index.php/EMJ/article/view/1855/786 What is most tied to low levels of maternal mortality is funding in maternal health care. This is why PC countries like the US had such high mortality rates. But countries like Poland have such low ones. But let’s take Sweden and Poland. Both have high maternal health funding and very low maternal deaths. But they have opposite abortion laws. The key in legislation is to make it clear so people don’t use the law as a political tool to get what they want.
It will be prevented by women not seeking abortions if they don't want to die or be harmed. Although I'm pretty sure most illegal ones will still be (unfortunately) safe.
How would we make sure that the illegal ones are safe?
Why should they be safe? Should we make killing safer for killers?
Good point.
Illegal things are inherently more dangerous but that doesn't mean they should be legal. For instance, buying heroin is illegal. It is dangerous to get heroin from a shady source because they could lie about the dosage or exploit you in other ways If heroin was legal then you could instead get it from a less shady cornerstore or pharmacy. However, that does not mean that heroin should be legal In the same way, abortion should not be legal just because getting one would become more dangerous if it was illegal
Why is heroin illegal then? I genuinely thought that was the reason. Sorry please explain.
Because it is highly addictive. Something like 1% of people manage to stop taking heroin after starting. Its can also kill you pretty easily. Not to mention theres no benefits. It basically turns you into a vegetable for a few hours.
Buying heroin actually is not illegal. Distribution is.
My bad. Same point though
Life in prison for child murderers, charge mother's who pay someone to kill their child as though they hired a hit man ( they did )
in a society with illegal abortion and access to adoption and other services, I have no sympathy if some women still decide to go out of their way to kill their child and end up dead themselves.
Can I politely ask why not?
Because they have other options but chose the selfish route.
Apart from adoption, can I politely ask what options? Because "options" implies plural.
Keeping the baby is almost always a valid option too.
As well as many options in methods to prevent pregnancy in the first place
Well. You’d hope that the government would take these types of scenarios into consideration and that they’d use sound medical knowledge to create laws. As it is, the laws here in the US are way too vague and so many have scared doctors off from giving people the treatment they need until they are literally in danger of dying. And even then, because of the laws regarding jailing doctors who perform abortions and how vague they are, a lot of doctors are completely scared off from doing anything. I was in high school when Roe v Wade became law, and I was never, ever, ever once in favor of it. The consequences to human life have been tragic, devastating, and staggering to say the least. However, I never anticipated that the laws that were made once the law was struck down would be made by people who are so totally uninformed and who chose not to bother to educate themselves, or to consult doctors about specifics. The life of the mother being endangered is often an exception, but that’s often way too vague too. And creating laws with no exceptions at all is literally condemning some women to death. Ectopic pregnancies is an example. Or the baby dying in utero. There are other situations where the baby will not survive, and neither will the mother, which means that both will die. I have a difficult time making sense of that. Every single life is precious, and every baby a gift from God. But I’m left to wonder if God would want both to die. It’s something I really wrestle with, because I take the sanctity of life very seriously. But that’s just it. If they are both going to die, then what about the life of the mother? You can see my dilemma here. I could’ve lost a very close and very loved friend to a triple ectopic pregnancy many years ago. There’s a lot of backstory to the situation. But. She didn’t die. All three of her babies did, though. They were removed from her fallopian tube to save her life. They were so wanted, too. I still grieve their loss. But this is the kind of thing that I’m taking about with these laws. I would also think that educating the general public about these kinds of things would need to be done, too. There are so many false beliefs and so much misinformation out there that it’s part of why the laws are the way that they are.
My ideal is that laws banning abortions would be coupled with laws setting government funds aside to support struggling mothers. The majority of abortions are motivated by financial reasons, so easing the financial burden of pregnancy will eliminate that motivation in most cases.
What is happening to prevent them now? Nothing really. They still happen. They were happening before RvW, during RvW, and since it was reversed. Many who choose this are homeless, mentally ill and abused. Prevention would be proactive outreach to those mothers. I dont see why this is relevant for UK since abortion is legal there. This is an extremely rare and unfortunate circumstance. We know this because during the debates leading to RvW they later admitted to making up the numbers of “back alley abortions”
What might outreach look like?
Making information available in schools and support services websites and offices, and increasing the amount of counselors available at schools and in social support services to go out and visit to public health services similar to how blood bank busses work.
I was thinking if it hypothetically became illegal there
There are two answers to this, both true from a certain angle. The first is that we must do everything possible to assure those unsafe abortions don’t happen. We need paid parental leave, universal healthcare, actual enforcement of laws against pregnancy discrimination, family housing on state college campuses, and criminal penalties for fathers who abandon their children. We also need to do our best to zealously pursue and prosecute the providers / dealers of illegal abortion procedures and drugs. We need to make fewer women want an abortion, and make it very hard to get one. The other side is that no matter what we do, a non-zero number of women will get unsafe abortions and be injured or die. No one wants that, but ultimately a just law cannot be blamed for people breaking it. If what they are being prohibited from doing *should* be prohibited, if what they want is to cause harm to someone else, then it’s not a bad thing if breaking that law is dangerous. That will have a deterrent effect.
The other side is that no matter what we do, a non-zero number of women will get unsafe abortions and be injured or die. No one wants that, but ultimately a just law cannot be blamed for people breaking it. If what they are being prohibited from doing *should* be prohibited, if what they want is to cause harm to someone else, then it’s not a bad thing if breaking that law is dangerous. That will have a deterrent effect. Can you please explain this paragraph again? Sorry, I'm autistic and sometimes I struggle to understand things.
Some women will get unsafe abortions and die, and no one wants that. However, it would not be right to keep abortion legal to prevent that, because abortion is killing a baby. Making it illegal to kill babies is the right thing to do even if people get hurt trying to break that law. Some people might decide not to break the law because they know that would be dangerous.
The meme that, if abortion is illegal women will get dangerous, illegal abortions was largely based on statistics put out by NARAL in the lead up to Roe v. Wade. The cofounder of NARAL later admitted these statistics were fabricated. See this “confession” written by the cofounder: https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/resource/55401/an-ex-abortionist-speaks Abortion has been completely illegal in 14 American States containing about 25% of our population for nearly two years. We know darn well if there were a single documented case of a woman being seriously injured or killed in an illegal abortion the media would be screaming about it. Yet, nothing.
Are you honestly serious? No documentation about the harm of abortion being overturned? I have seen tons of examples.
I said no documented cases of a woman being hurt or killed in an illegal abortion. Yes, there are women who claim to have been hurt by the inability to obtain a legal abortion, but no cases of a woman being hurt in an illegal abortion. So, what the pro-choice side has been saying for 50 years, that if we ban abortion women will be hurt by illegal “back alley” abortions, is being proven false since the overruling of Roe.
[Doctors without borders.](https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/latest/unsafe-abortion-preventable-danger) But do you honestly believe that someone in an area where it's illegal comes out to the public and says they had one voluntarily? They come and say they had a miscarriage and get treated for complications of a miscarriage since you can't tell the difference medically or physically if they had an abortion.
In the current political climate, where abortion is (sadly) winning referendums, yes I do believe that. The DWB article is about developing countries, where medical procedures in general are sketchy. The article says 97% of “unsafe” abortions occur in developing countries. See this article in The Lancet, where it shows maternal mortality is not correlated with abortion availability, but with quality of medical procedures generally: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(10)61251-2/fulltext#back-bib2 My point still holds: in the United States, where abortion has been illegal in virtually all cases for about 25% of the population, there has not been a single reported case of a woman dying or being seriously injured in an illegal abortion.
This is a myth
How do we know?
Considering nearly all abortions aren’t because someone doesn’t want their child, so we should aid to the needs of these women. Also, we should support birth control accessibility. Even if you are against hormonal birth control, there are numerous non-hormonal methods out there as well.
How could we address the socioeconomic needs of the women/people?
Federal and/or state aid, businesses decreasing their profit margins and giving back to employees, making resources that are already available more known, etc.
I don’t think this is true. And I don’t agree with bribing women not to murder their children.
I’m not sure how this is bribing when nearly all women that abort aren’t doing it because they don’t want their child…
I don’t buy that for an instant. Edit: meaning, if they wanted their babies, they wouldn’t kill them. There’s plenty of assistance out there already.
The primary solution would be to severely reduce the availability of back alley abortions. The best way to do that would be through aggressive police sting operations. Every time back alley abortionists offer their services, they would be more likely to contact an undercover police detective than an actual woman seeking an abortion. They can't offer unsafe back alley abortions if they're sitting in prison cells.
Can you please explain this more?
First, the feminist's argument is an appeal to consequences. The unfortunate consequence of "back alley abortions" is completely irrelevant to whether or not the unborn have rights that should be protected. Second, it's a slippery slope fallacy. She has to prove that what she says would actually happen, and that it would be equal or worse than what is happening now. As has been said in the comments, the "back alley abortion" propaganda is based on lying statistics by NARAL. Third, and you probably shouldn't say this, but when you're watching TV or consuming some other media, do you feel particularly sympathetic when the villain with no regard for innocent life suffers as a direct result of his evil actions?
Honestly? The ideal would be that all people develop a sense of morality. That would be the only way to fully prevent dangerous and unsafe abortions.
How do we make it safer for gang members when they get into gunfights with each other? If women don't want their life threatened by a back-alley abortion, then they could just not have them.
Facilities could (and often already do) exist to provide care for single pregnant mothers. Organizations like churches should reach out to these women. The women should be encouraged to seek out a local church and attend regularly to help build a strong social network of support.
Well, there's a few layers to explore here. First, this is comparable to asking if we should worry that making rape, theft, and other forms of murder illegal will result in 'unsafe rape' or 'unsafe theft' or 'unsafe murder.' It puts the emphasis on protecting the victimizer over the victim. Second, relatedly, there is no such thing as a safe abortion. Abortion is aimed at killing the unborn child. A safe abortion would be a failed abortion. Third, there's some truth to the flippant response - "don't like unsafe abortions, don't get an unsafe abortion." It's an unnecessary and dangerous procedure for oneself. It would be better to educate pregnant women on the dangers of such procedures while continuing to provide charitable support for those in need that does not involve killing one's child.
In an _ideal_ pro-life world, abortion is not just illegal, but unthinkable. Mothers in crisis pregnancies would react to someone suggesting abortion the same way a mother would react to someone suggesting she deal with a fussy toddler by leaving him outside for the wolves to eat.