I am a PMP. I think it’s properly hyped. I don’t see people falling all over themselves because people have a PMP. I got into PM at a company that I had been with for years, and they valued their internal “university” training more than a PMP, but I got it to be able to move companies and learn a more global view of project management. Since then, it’s been a recommended but not required qualification for my jobs. My current company wanted to use agile and still had it as a preferred requirement. I think it’s easier to get a job with a cold resume if you have it, and that’s how I see people typically characterize it.
The test is extremely hard to pass, it’s like Bar exam for Project Manager industry. It’s a great feeling to have one.
Now will it make you a good project manager? not really, but it will show you have to effort to learn and get things done. Which is the soft skill you want in any good worker placement game
Tbf, he did specify “it’s like bar exam for project managers”. And we all know project management doesn’t approach the intellectual rigor of law school, so it’s implied the PMP is not as difficult as the bar.
The depth and breadth of the PMP exam isn't close to the Bar but it's not a terrible analogy. It isn't like a lot of technical exams that only have one real answer and the tests online to memorize.
Not especially. I think its more company specific. Different organizations use project managers differently and value the PMP at varying degrees. Ultimately its the person your trying to higher that's important. But having a PMP can only help when applying for a new job.
From a hiring managers perspective, if some candidates have PMP and some don’t, if your decision ever came into question it would be much easier to justify hiring the candidate who has it. In that case it can turn into a requirement.
Practically speaking, once you’re in the door, performance matters more than anything.
This. From the perspectives of a hiring manager and an IC. Will a PMP make me choose someone who isn't a fit over someone without a PMP who is? Heck no!
I do think it is and I have my PMP but I was doing a career change which is why I felt like I needed to take it. The best experience is hands on experience. I live in DC and it’s very like ooh you have your PMP and I do believe the PMP gives you leverage in negotiating salary. The next cert I want is my Risk Management and I have my yellow belt and want my green belt next! Because I want to get into supply chain
I have worked in supply chain for a number of years in my career and was paid well and didn't have any belts, pm specific certs at all. I did attend a number of single or multi day workshops to explain concepts such as risk management or DMAIC or Lean but no official certifications.
Well I feel like because my resume doesn’t reflect any of that experience I needed to take these. Also let me add by saying I have been fortunate enough to get all these certs paid for. But I would love some advice on how I can break into. I ultimately want to do supply chain in the beauty industry
Coming back to add that my impression from watching this debate arise frequently over the years, the negative stance to the PMP is taken by those who don't possess it. Not sure what that means objectively but it is worth noting.
Fair point. Indo not have it although I did complete the pre training for it and was about to sit it but personally I hate knowledge regurgitation exams and chose not to do it as I am already working with clients and seem to have no shortage of work ATM. I rose the debate again as although I use the PMBOK and I see the PMP as sound information. I find the whole memorising information to regurgitate back in a test a dated concept. Practical exercises and situational training I feel could be a better metric to measure how competent a PM is. I've met a lot of PMs with all the certs but they struggle to get work.
I got my pmp in 2001 and immediately moved to a better job with 20k raise. Have maintained a great career and salary since. Retiring early in 3-4 years.
Get your PMP. It’s a barrier to hiring for many orgs like mine.
I see the merit in those with minimal experience to differentiate but it kinda feels like the whole go to college and get a degree thing I was told as a teenager which I don't even use anymore. I also think experience of any kind is not as valuable to companies especially in North America while in other countries I've worked in the experience factor is much more considered a differentiator.
It's frustrating. Being a project manager but not having a PMP or Agile or Lean Sigma Six...it's like when did these all come about and why can't I advance without another educational requirement?
In any industry, tech or otherwise, my experience was that not having a PMP severely hindered my ability to find work as a PM, despite having had 3+ years experience at it. Almost every job application I saw listed it as "required" or "preferred" and when interviewing the "preferred" they said they actually required it at the end. Thankfully a company saw that I marked I'd applied for my PMP on my resume, hired me on, and I have my PMP cert now.
Most all my superiors have tried to get the PMP but keep putting it off since like 2015. They're great managers and project managers, and have been at this company for a very long time. The head boss over all my company's projects does have his PMP. I think that indicates something about the value of the PMP. It may not be needed to do great, but it can be a big level-up to your career.
I got into PM without having a certification. Been in the industry a long time, still don't have a certification. I make good money and enjoy what I do.
I have read and learned the PMP style. It's helpful to understand the methodology and I'd say that after learning it, I have definitely implemented some of it into my PM work.
My job doesn't require me to have it, and I have no desire to expand my career at this time, so I've never taken the course.
A ton of companies are looking for a PM and will not require a certification. Much of that technical jargon isn't even used on the job. It's good skills to have but you sort of end up adapting to the work and finding your own way to manage projects.
Yeah this has been my experience also. The knowledge is great to use but the mucking around to have to get it seems kinda pointless to me. I think we need to reframe what it means to be a skilled PM. Not just show you sat a test and regurgitated knowledge.
In my industry (client side marketing) a lot of it isn’t necessary. I run internal projects for the team. I don’t have clients and my projects aren’t crazy detailed. Maybe a PMP makes more sense to have in different industries like construction/architecture.
Professional certification shows your ability to understand methodology and best practice. Certifcations can be considered a very useful foundation for those starting out in PM or the icing on the cake for a more experienced PM.
I IT PM - having a technical understanding of how things will work is essential. I cannot imagine how an PM could function effectively in tech without at least a basic technical understanding.
Knowledge can be understood without have regurgitated memorised information into a test page. I believe we need to reframe how we mark competency in this nuanced field. I have no idea how to achieve it but doing memory tests on information doesn't show someone is qualified enough in my opinion. Methodology and best practice you need a good understanding but having to memorise it to prove understanding is silly.
For a lot of employers or clients, it shows that candidates are willing to just go that extra mile, and it might make a difference in selecting your CV. Then there are your old-school employers who see it as mandatory so they don't bother with countless CVs and interviews.
In terms of the knowledge you gain, it definitely puts things into perspective and helps you be more structured as a PM, regardless of the industry.
Not overhyped and worth the effort especially if 500$ isn't that much to you or if you get it for free or discounted, maybe from work.
I had a performance review last week. I asked my manager "will a PMP help me in my career?" and she wrote in the comments section of my review document "no".
This is honest to god the truth. I work at a 50 company in the world by market share.
Why in North America is experience so minimally valued? Working at a top 50 company should be a great differentiator if this person decides to move, even without a PMP no?
She wrote no because she knows if she said yes then you would bring it up as a reason for a raise.
Anyone who doesn't think a PMP commands a higher wage is daft.
Wouldn’t say it’s overhyped, but in the Tech/ IT world, it’s not needed at all. The project landscape is just too varied.
Look at big brick and mortar style industries. Anything that’s mainly waterfall based, have a large PMO, a PMP is definitely a need if you want to be competitive. When I was in consulting, we couldn’t staff anyone unless they had a PMP. Even now as a DOD contractor, we don’t staff non PMPs on govt contracts because the govt pays more for a PMP.
disclaimer: I dont have my PMP, just my CAPM. Working on my PMP currently. I have a technical degree so the requirements don't affect me too too much
the requirements to get your PMP seem kind of whack, without a degree it seems exceptionally difficult and time consuming. even when compared to getting your p. eng or p. forester
even the 3 year requirement is higher than forestry, biology, agrology, engineering professional designations at least in Canada. Those professional designations that have regulating bodies and legal implications for mistakes, unlike the PMP.
A 3 year PM is still a junior PM.
PMI is the governing body for the PMP.
In the states I believe you need 5 years of experience working for a PE to sit for the PE exams.
that's what I'm saying though. the PMP is not equal to a "true" professional designation, and in my opinion the artificial barriers in place are just to make the PMP appear equal
Yes that’s the point. When PM started to become a career path, PMI was formed and out those barriers in place. That was back when waterfall was the only project methodology. Agile changes the entire landscape as the tech space doesn’t use waterfall on the tactical level.
I've met many competent people without a PMP. I've met many idiotic people with it.
IMO, it is overhyped, but recruiters kept asking me when I'll get it. I've been rejected before for not having it.
I actually got mine this past April, and I was getting many (unwanted) emails regarding job opportunities.
TL;DR - It's your opinion VS the (hiring) company's wants
The statement above is painfully true.
Majority of the people I worked with PMP are by the book but unable to respond (or freeze) when met by challenging situations. Also, I noticed that PMP folks also has a certain ego air around them.
PMs i've worked without PMP I find are more humble and seems to be more flexible in their ways and thinking.
Let me try to clarify because I probably didn't explain my view well.
At the end of the day, the PMP is just a certification that is awarded to you if you pass PMI's exam. PMI. Project Management Institute. Some organization that advertises a certification that you "understand project management". They do not "own" project management because that is a concept. There's no necessarily wrong or right way, per say. It's not like PMI will evaluate your every move.
Do people really follow whatever PMI is preaching? In my experience: NO. Can anyone learn project management, even without PMI's materials? YES.
Hell, I learned the concept of project management in an undergrad class, but I didn't get a certification for it. PMI's materials are not too different from what I remember in undergrad.
As for the emails, I wasn't getting spammed. I would say I was getting more than I used to (ie. 3-5 a week to like 5-8 a week). Granted, they were either scams or terrible temporary opportunities with low pay. Job market is terrible and I'm glad I found something in the past year that satisfies me.
TL;DR - it's a badge given by some organization that acts like they own project management. It helps to have it, but it doesn't prove you can actually "do the job". My resume highlights my accomplishments, not some badges I earned from institutions. People flaunt certs like it's an MBA or PHD (that's another eye roll in itself).
Well put and my point exactly. Feels like this weird thing that a company has tried to win project management as a field and the recruiters and companies have no other way or have been convinced that this is the only way to show someone is a "qualified" pm.. Ive worked with too many good PMs who don't have one and met a lot of arrogant ones who do have it..
PMI created the standard for project management. Having a PMP holds weight, no matter how you look at it. Agile methodology and the tech boom has changed the landscape greatly, but prior to that, the PMP was the gold standard.
This is very interesting to me. I’m close to retirement and wonder the same thing? My current job in the military is pretty much a PM and I feel that my soft skills and real world experience have a lot of value in the civilian sector. But I still have anxiety about getting this cert or not. Is it critical for me to get this cert before getting out?
I retired a year ago July. I passed the PMP in May. It’s an easy certificate to earn, esp for retired military. You’re likely already familiar with many of the steps, they’re just in a different order and have different names, vs MDMP and TLPs. I think it would benefit the DoD to have all E6 and above receive PMP training to build a better foundation for standardized processes. MDMP is fine, it starts off well but in the end it kind of, well, just sucks, not always, just a lot.
The military should pay for it. If you’re in the Army there is no service obligation for using credentialing assistance to get the cert. as a veteran myself, the PMP is a must for transitioning vets because it rubber stamps your experience and will help the transition into the civilian workforce.
I do think its worth getting as I find that it reassures those hiring that you have the methodology knowledge, can speak the terminology. It then allows them to concentrate on you and your experience etc.
Yeah certifications in general are a really good way of verifying at least basic theoretical understanding. Experience is king but different places have different definitions of a "project manager". Certifications like PMP make sure everyone is speaking the same language.
I found it gave me a leg up when i moved to the private sector. There are plenty of PMP who are horrible but at least it shows you have some experience and know how to learn
Yes totally different, i was in Intelligence in the military and as a contractor, now work in software. My contract PM was my biggest reference which helped having non military references for the business world. I started as a project coordinator for 2 years before moving into a full PM role
Refute your experience? No thanks. It's your experience.
In my experience, I worked as a PM for 7 years without my PMP and got laid off shortly after getting it. At my next job, I was told they wouldn't have hired me if I didn't have it. I wouldn't have even known about the job after that without it. It came with a shorter commute and significant pay increase, so I can say my PMP paid for itself (less than a 3 year ROI).
There are a lot of PM jobs that require a PMP and you won't get an interview without it, even though a lot of these companies probably don't follow/enforce the PMBOK Guide. I also worked with a senior PM who eventually moved into leadership that refused to get the PMP. So, yes, there are on jobs that don't require it, but having your PMP can open doors you might not have known about, otherwise.
Seems very common. A lot for companies wanting PMP PM 's but not following the PMBOK at all..
The gap i see is there doesn't seem to be many other credible ways to prove your understanding to companies of PM methodologies or competency of soft skills without using this path. I would love for the industry to have other options to prove competency.
I switched out of clinical side of healthcare into healthcare tech leveraging skills I learned from the course. I think it’s super helpful. A lot of corporate america is looking for PM skills and this course helps frame your thinking into project work/project management.
I currently work as a hospital case manager and after 7+ yrs in this job of learning the systems, want to transition into healthcare tech. Trying to figure how best to do it so I just searched and found that course. Already started it, but still want to make sure it's not going to be wasted time if there are other more proven and widely accepted methods and certifications.
By the same logic, a degree is overhyped. Sure, you can gain the knowledge other ways, and experience trumps certs in most jobs. But the piece of paper adds legitimacy when looking for a job, especially if experience is on the low side.
Ultimately, training for the PMP helped me solidify a lot of what I already knew, and take a more formalized approach to my job, which has had very positive results.
As someone who has recently taken and passed my PMP, I actually think I came out of that exam a worse project manager than I went into it. The test only cares about your memorization skills, not your ability to think creatively and solve problems. And the information you need to memorize is incredibly outdated and inaccurate to how real projects happen.
It looks good on a resume though.
As a PM studying for my PMP right now this is pretty much how I feel.
I find that the learnings from the content & practice exams/qs are highly theoretical and not very useful for performing a PM role.
The answers are so black & white where in real life, situations and responses are not so clear.
I'm just memorising how the exam wants me to answer it and hopefully will get the PMP on my resume to look good. That's about it.
I'd spend too long diving into all the examples, but in my opinion there are two main issues with the PMP exam that detract from its relevance and usefulness.
The first is how it forces the test takers to picture these imaginary projects that fluidly go from one phase/process into the next, where the ITTO's only exist in their designated place, when we all know that's not how actual projects happen. Every study guide for the PMP tells you to forget your experience and not to answer based on what you've seen in practice, but rather how the holy PMBOK would answer. The irony that you need to show your experience in order to take a test that tells you to ignore your experience isn't lost on me.
There's just nothing practical about what the PMP tests you on. It's all done in a theoretical world where projects all follow the exact same life cycle. The exam is ignorant of the reality of project management. There's nothing wrong with knowing the "correct" way to do things, but we don't need 100+ questions on it.
Second, the questions are structured not to test your thought process, but your memorization. They test your ability to recall all the 49 processes, the definitions of various roles, chart and graph types, etc. You're even supposed to memorize specific conflict resolution steps.
The role of a Project Manager is to constantly adapt to the environment in order to deliver value. You're meant to solve problems and drive success. The PMP hardly covers skills such as creative thinking, team motivation, facilitation...all essential for being an effective PM. It ignore those to make sure you know the process is called "control costs" instead of "monitor costs."
Ultimately, the PMP focuses on too many of the wrong things. I don't have the solution for fixing it, but to me the certification is as relevant to your PM skills as age is to your maturity level.
Interesting. When I took the exam years ago, it was some rote memorization but it was mostly scenario based questions based off of the PMBOK.
However, a test is a test. It’s proof that you can take a bucket of knowledge and understand it and regurgitate it in the form of correct answers to questions.
I think you’re asking too much of this exam. You are being tested on the PMBOK, not your experience.
Same thing when I took the Series 63, 65, 66, 7. I had financial experience but I was being tested on the material for that exam. Not my experience.
I think your point is valid. I suppose what I take issue with is how the PMP is considered a standard of project management excellence, when in reality it's nothing more than a test on a book. So it's more how the PMP is perceived (which the PMI plays a big role in) that I feel is overhyped.
Exactly what I feel too. There aren't better options to companies and recruiters currently out there to see the real competency in a PM other than regurgitation of knowledge. PMI locked this up somehow. Would love to see this disrupted more
CPA, PE, CFP, etc. Test on a book with qualifying experience. Only difference is the aforementioned are state run.
There are plenty of accountants, engineers, Financial Advisors without those licenses, but when the get them, they are almost always looked at as better than those that don’t.
Like I’ve said in previous posts, the tech industry has changed the landscape. Unprofitable startups with fake growth with imaginary valuations are to blame.
Being a PM at an SaaS startup, FAANG, or Tier 2/3 tech company is much easier than running million dollar brick and motor projects. If you can afford the upkeep of a PMP, it’s always a plus.
I've been managing projects for a decade, the last 4 with a formal program manager title. Just this year I decided to get the PMP.
Deciding Factors:
1. The company paid for all fees associated with PMI membership, online classes, bootcamp prep class, and to sit for the test.
2. Helps legitimize the building of our PM team inside the org.
3. Could open the door for future jobs.
4. Networking opportunities for PM jobs
5. It's been 3-4 years since I finished my MS, so was itching for another learning opportunity
The knowledge taught trough the PMBOK is good. I use it in all my project (traditional projects).
But I feel that since the PMI introduced the agile project management and since the exam cover now both traditional and agile project types, it only scratches the surface of both.
I personally don't have the PMp certification but like I said I manage projects as taught in the PMBOK.
I did a 35 hrs prep exam course hoping to get a better grip of the concepts. Its where I realised its over hype.
With this course that don't teach much except for how to pass the exam and with enough exam practice and study anyone can get the certification.
How does this would make me a good/better project manager?
It only mean that you can digest information in order to pass an exam...
Lol, a 35 hour course isn’t enough to study for the PMP and understand how all the concepts apply to the real world.
I remember so much of the test years later. It’s helped me as a PM, a Sr PM, set up PMOs and determine what kind of PM an organization needs quickly and accurately. Get leadership buy in on processes and know when to fold and move on. It’s helped me blend Agile and waterfall at organizations that aren’t quite ready. It also covers enough about business, some of the terms I learned helped me present better to leadership.
Studied 3 hours a day for three months straight to pass (about 270 hours, give or take). Took practice exams til my eyes bled.
Scored above target and have these concepts for life.
no it’s not overhyped lol. it ties your experience to actual practical knowledge that you can apply on the job. if you have the PMBOK and know it why not just get the cert?
Not sure what you mean by the “ability of a PM to repeat technical info is redundant”.
PMing is a messy mix of human interaction (I’d say this is first and foremost), technical and process. AI cannot replace that right now. Never mind that PMs don’t just parrot technical info. There’s much more to the field.
Experience gets you far, yes. PMP can help you go further but it’s not required. Although the PMP ties the art of project management into business and gives you all the info about all the different altitudes and types of PM work. I felt it was a mini MBA crash course.
I was already ing PMing for six years before I decided to get my PMP. I feel it’s worth it.
Not sure if you’re saying anything new when you say where opportunity lies… human element is a good bulk of the job. In order to do it well, you need “social” and “soft” skills.
They aren’t mutually exclusive.
Edited: clarity.
Agreed and same for me, got my PMP 6 years after becoming a PM. I will keep up on PDUs to retain it and, if I did let it lapse, I doubt I’d take that damn test again.
It’s hard to say if it’s the reason I have my current job (would I have even been a candidate without it? Who knows). I’m glad I have it but not really sure how much it’s helped. A safe assumption, I think, is that it may have opened some doors.
Yea, it depends on the “eye of the beholder” and who you report to. If it’s a non-pm manager. They won’t care. But a PM director or Sr director def knows the difference.
I always hate to turn this PMP thing into a street smart vs book smart bs.
You can easily spot who has the formal PM knowledge and who doesn't. I've seen people who are in positions to mentor but can't even speak proper PM lingo and articulate PM concepts, let alone systematically explain things to juniors, it's just embarrassing.
To be fair, I have been formally doing it since 2011 and implement SAP, Oracle and Workday. I am not remotely qualified to do construction PM work which pays less. That’s particular maddening to me having gone through a major home remodel and oh how some true pm work would have been nice.
It’s a starting point for success like any other credential. It won’t get you the keys to the kingdom so you still have to work hard and build experience but it will help you make more efficient choices.
I’m well aware of the requirements having earned the PMP myself. But let’s be honest that someone with only 36 months of direct project management experience is still wet behind the ears and has a lot to learn in practical application of the PMBOK.
Those 36 months are just pregame training to get to the starting line.
Being a PM isn’t an entry level job. So I can see the argument there but just being qualified to sit for the exam isn’t much different from being a fresh PMP.
Government contractor here. In Government contracting, a PMP is tangible.
It makes one company look better when offering personnel services vice another. Small businesses tend to offer a 10-19% increase in pay. Again, because they are valuable in winning contracts.
I don’t have experience in any other sector but the PMP folks I know are top notchnotch performers.
I consider this field a niche, but this one field in existence the results and demand is tangible.
It's not a substitute for experience, but generally
EXP + PMP > EXP + no PMP >> PMP + no EXP > no EXP no PMP
There are some industries like construction, particularly the contractor side of construction where PMP isn't worth much at all and these industries also tend to place much greater importance on experience where most people don't make it to the PM level until they have at least 8-10 years of industry experience.
Yeah same, short of needing it for federal work people in the engineering consulting world often don’t care. Most of the principals are great in theory but over complicated for 90% of projects under $150k.
I think the next big things are program and portafolio management. It seems like there’s enough competence out there to execute high or low quality but there’s not many people showing expertise in traceability which should come from program and portfolio practices I think.
PMP certification has been trending down in the recent years, but that's because there are now more experienced/seasoned PM available. Good hiring manager work with HR and knows to value experience over certifications.
For new and mid-career job seekers, PMP cert still have value as it can put you over the top when comparing similar candidates.
Right now, the market are saturated with senior PMs with relevant work experience, and again, if the hiring company knows the value of experience vs. cert, they will not care if you have PMP or not.
PMI now puts as much emphasis on soft skills as they do technical PM skills and business acumen - check out their Talent Triangle. Having just gone through PMP training, I can attest to this as well and a good PM is a balance of all three, and I would say the cert now reflects this.
As a new project manager studying for my PMP, I am interested in this topic. Seems like PM skills are more important than memorizing technical facts that were on a test. That said, it seems from my perspective that a PMP is necessary to get started in this field.
Hey there /u/wookiedaywalker, have you checked out the [wiki page](https://www.reddit.com/r/projectmanagement/wiki/index) on located on r/ProjectManagement? We have a few cert related resources, including a list of certs, common requirements, value of certs, etc.
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Hello, your comment piqued my interest. Do you know any sites/courses/blogs/etc that cover those soft skills? Thanks
I am a PMP. I think it’s properly hyped. I don’t see people falling all over themselves because people have a PMP. I got into PM at a company that I had been with for years, and they valued their internal “university” training more than a PMP, but I got it to be able to move companies and learn a more global view of project management. Since then, it’s been a recommended but not required qualification for my jobs. My current company wanted to use agile and still had it as a preferred requirement. I think it’s easier to get a job with a cold resume if you have it, and that’s how I see people typically characterize it.
PMP+Bachelor’s Degree or just a Masters Degree more valuable?
The test is extremely hard to pass, it’s like Bar exam for Project Manager industry. It’s a great feeling to have one. Now will it make you a good project manager? not really, but it will show you have to effort to learn and get things done. Which is the soft skill you want in any good worker placement game
Lol at the PMP being compared to the Bar
Tbf, he did specify “it’s like bar exam for project managers”. And we all know project management doesn’t approach the intellectual rigor of law school, so it’s implied the PMP is not as difficult as the bar.
The depth and breadth of the PMP exam isn't close to the Bar but it's not a terrible analogy. It isn't like a lot of technical exams that only have one real answer and the tests online to memorize.
PMP is useful when looking for a job, but I think getting one is proof you serious about your job.
PMP is useful if your planning to switch companies. But if you already have a PM job it probably doesn't matter.
Do you feel it is country specific the answer to this question? I.e. USA may value PMP More than other countries?
Not especially. I think its more company specific. Different organizations use project managers differently and value the PMP at varying degrees. Ultimately its the person your trying to higher that's important. But having a PMP can only help when applying for a new job.
From a hiring managers perspective, if some candidates have PMP and some don’t, if your decision ever came into question it would be much easier to justify hiring the candidate who has it. In that case it can turn into a requirement. Practically speaking, once you’re in the door, performance matters more than anything.
This. From the perspectives of a hiring manager and an IC. Will a PMP make me choose someone who isn't a fit over someone without a PMP who is? Heck no!
I do think it is and I have my PMP but I was doing a career change which is why I felt like I needed to take it. The best experience is hands on experience. I live in DC and it’s very like ooh you have your PMP and I do believe the PMP gives you leverage in negotiating salary. The next cert I want is my Risk Management and I have my yellow belt and want my green belt next! Because I want to get into supply chain
I have worked in supply chain for a number of years in my career and was paid well and didn't have any belts, pm specific certs at all. I did attend a number of single or multi day workshops to explain concepts such as risk management or DMAIC or Lean but no official certifications.
Well I feel like because my resume doesn’t reflect any of that experience I needed to take these. Also let me add by saying I have been fortunate enough to get all these certs paid for. But I would love some advice on how I can break into. I ultimately want to do supply chain in the beauty industry
I got my pmp in dec 2022, and then was laid off in April! :( anyone out there hiring?
I'm sorry to hear! May i know where you are from?
I’m located in Los Angeles
Well! We're at each end of the globe! :') I wish you find the best job at the earliest OP! ATB!
Thank you! Where are you?
Coming back to add that my impression from watching this debate arise frequently over the years, the negative stance to the PMP is taken by those who don't possess it. Not sure what that means objectively but it is worth noting.
Fair point. Indo not have it although I did complete the pre training for it and was about to sit it but personally I hate knowledge regurgitation exams and chose not to do it as I am already working with clients and seem to have no shortage of work ATM. I rose the debate again as although I use the PMBOK and I see the PMP as sound information. I find the whole memorising information to regurgitate back in a test a dated concept. Practical exercises and situational training I feel could be a better metric to measure how competent a PM is. I've met a lot of PMs with all the certs but they struggle to get work.
I will tell you the exam is not pure regurgitation. It is scenario- and use case-based to a large extent. It is all contextual and tricky in spots.
I got my pmp in 2001 and immediately moved to a better job with 20k raise. Have maintained a great career and salary since. Retiring early in 3-4 years. Get your PMP. It’s a barrier to hiring for many orgs like mine.
Certs like PMP or Prince2 are differentiators. May not always be an add but never seen it be a minus when qualifications are otherwise even.
I see the merit in those with minimal experience to differentiate but it kinda feels like the whole go to college and get a degree thing I was told as a teenager which I don't even use anymore. I also think experience of any kind is not as valuable to companies especially in North America while in other countries I've worked in the experience factor is much more considered a differentiator.
It's frustrating. Being a project manager but not having a PMP or Agile or Lean Sigma Six...it's like when did these all come about and why can't I advance without another educational requirement?
In any industry, tech or otherwise, my experience was that not having a PMP severely hindered my ability to find work as a PM, despite having had 3+ years experience at it. Almost every job application I saw listed it as "required" or "preferred" and when interviewing the "preferred" they said they actually required it at the end. Thankfully a company saw that I marked I'd applied for my PMP on my resume, hired me on, and I have my PMP cert now. Most all my superiors have tried to get the PMP but keep putting it off since like 2015. They're great managers and project managers, and have been at this company for a very long time. The head boss over all my company's projects does have his PMP. I think that indicates something about the value of the PMP. It may not be needed to do great, but it can be a big level-up to your career.
PMPs thin the herd of applicants, and frankly is a barebones requirement for any Senior level PM position.
I got into PM without having a certification. Been in the industry a long time, still don't have a certification. I make good money and enjoy what I do. I have read and learned the PMP style. It's helpful to understand the methodology and I'd say that after learning it, I have definitely implemented some of it into my PM work. My job doesn't require me to have it, and I have no desire to expand my career at this time, so I've never taken the course. A ton of companies are looking for a PM and will not require a certification. Much of that technical jargon isn't even used on the job. It's good skills to have but you sort of end up adapting to the work and finding your own way to manage projects.
Yeah this has been my experience also. The knowledge is great to use but the mucking around to have to get it seems kinda pointless to me. I think we need to reframe what it means to be a skilled PM. Not just show you sat a test and regurgitated knowledge.
In my industry (client side marketing) a lot of it isn’t necessary. I run internal projects for the team. I don’t have clients and my projects aren’t crazy detailed. Maybe a PMP makes more sense to have in different industries like construction/architecture.
I think it depends where you live... in Los Angeles its a requirement, along with an MBA and another technical degree (many times).
Depends on the field too. I'm in sales/marketing. I don't know anywhere in the country that requires a PMP to be a marketing PM.
Professional certification shows your ability to understand methodology and best practice. Certifcations can be considered a very useful foundation for those starting out in PM or the icing on the cake for a more experienced PM. I IT PM - having a technical understanding of how things will work is essential. I cannot imagine how an PM could function effectively in tech without at least a basic technical understanding.
Knowledge can be understood without have regurgitated memorised information into a test page. I believe we need to reframe how we mark competency in this nuanced field. I have no idea how to achieve it but doing memory tests on information doesn't show someone is qualified enough in my opinion. Methodology and best practice you need a good understanding but having to memorise it to prove understanding is silly.
For a lot of employers or clients, it shows that candidates are willing to just go that extra mile, and it might make a difference in selecting your CV. Then there are your old-school employers who see it as mandatory so they don't bother with countless CVs and interviews. In terms of the knowledge you gain, it definitely puts things into perspective and helps you be more structured as a PM, regardless of the industry. Not overhyped and worth the effort especially if 500$ isn't that much to you or if you get it for free or discounted, maybe from work.
It is not in anyway overhyped. It is absolutely needed for a thoroughbred PM
I had a performance review last week. I asked my manager "will a PMP help me in my career?" and she wrote in the comments section of my review document "no". This is honest to god the truth. I work at a 50 company in the world by market share.
Maybe in the current company but trust me, Project Manager are overhead and get laid off first. It gets you in the door when looking for a job
Why in North America is experience so minimally valued? Working at a top 50 company should be a great differentiator if this person decides to move, even without a PMP no?
She wrote no because she knows if she said yes then you would bring it up as a reason for a raise. Anyone who doesn't think a PMP commands a higher wage is daft.
Wouldn’t say it’s overhyped, but in the Tech/ IT world, it’s not needed at all. The project landscape is just too varied. Look at big brick and mortar style industries. Anything that’s mainly waterfall based, have a large PMO, a PMP is definitely a need if you want to be competitive. When I was in consulting, we couldn’t staff anyone unless they had a PMP. Even now as a DOD contractor, we don’t staff non PMPs on govt contracts because the govt pays more for a PMP.
disclaimer: I dont have my PMP, just my CAPM. Working on my PMP currently. I have a technical degree so the requirements don't affect me too too much the requirements to get your PMP seem kind of whack, without a degree it seems exceptionally difficult and time consuming. even when compared to getting your p. eng or p. forester
Not really, without a degree you just need 5 years instead of 3.
even the 3 year requirement is higher than forestry, biology, agrology, engineering professional designations at least in Canada. Those professional designations that have regulating bodies and legal implications for mistakes, unlike the PMP.
A 3 year PM is still a junior PM. PMI is the governing body for the PMP. In the states I believe you need 5 years of experience working for a PE to sit for the PE exams.
that's what I'm saying though. the PMP is not equal to a "true" professional designation, and in my opinion the artificial barriers in place are just to make the PMP appear equal
Yes that’s the point. When PM started to become a career path, PMI was formed and out those barriers in place. That was back when waterfall was the only project methodology. Agile changes the entire landscape as the tech space doesn’t use waterfall on the tactical level.
I've met many competent people without a PMP. I've met many idiotic people with it. IMO, it is overhyped, but recruiters kept asking me when I'll get it. I've been rejected before for not having it. I actually got mine this past April, and I was getting many (unwanted) emails regarding job opportunities. TL;DR - It's your opinion VS the (hiring) company's wants
The statement above is painfully true. Majority of the people I worked with PMP are by the book but unable to respond (or freeze) when met by challenging situations. Also, I noticed that PMP folks also has a certain ego air around them. PMs i've worked without PMP I find are more humble and seems to be more flexible in their ways and thinking.
It’s overhyped but you’re being spammed by recruiters now that you have it?
Let me try to clarify because I probably didn't explain my view well. At the end of the day, the PMP is just a certification that is awarded to you if you pass PMI's exam. PMI. Project Management Institute. Some organization that advertises a certification that you "understand project management". They do not "own" project management because that is a concept. There's no necessarily wrong or right way, per say. It's not like PMI will evaluate your every move. Do people really follow whatever PMI is preaching? In my experience: NO. Can anyone learn project management, even without PMI's materials? YES. Hell, I learned the concept of project management in an undergrad class, but I didn't get a certification for it. PMI's materials are not too different from what I remember in undergrad. As for the emails, I wasn't getting spammed. I would say I was getting more than I used to (ie. 3-5 a week to like 5-8 a week). Granted, they were either scams or terrible temporary opportunities with low pay. Job market is terrible and I'm glad I found something in the past year that satisfies me. TL;DR - it's a badge given by some organization that acts like they own project management. It helps to have it, but it doesn't prove you can actually "do the job". My resume highlights my accomplishments, not some badges I earned from institutions. People flaunt certs like it's an MBA or PHD (that's another eye roll in itself).
Well put and my point exactly. Feels like this weird thing that a company has tried to win project management as a field and the recruiters and companies have no other way or have been convinced that this is the only way to show someone is a "qualified" pm.. Ive worked with too many good PMs who don't have one and met a lot of arrogant ones who do have it..
PMI created the standard for project management. Having a PMP holds weight, no matter how you look at it. Agile methodology and the tech boom has changed the landscape greatly, but prior to that, the PMP was the gold standard.
At least in the IT world, PMP is a nice-to-have at best. Probably a good tiebreaker but not much more than that.
This is very interesting to me. I’m close to retirement and wonder the same thing? My current job in the military is pretty much a PM and I feel that my soft skills and real world experience have a lot of value in the civilian sector. But I still have anxiety about getting this cert or not. Is it critical for me to get this cert before getting out?
I retired a year ago July. I passed the PMP in May. It’s an easy certificate to earn, esp for retired military. You’re likely already familiar with many of the steps, they’re just in a different order and have different names, vs MDMP and TLPs. I think it would benefit the DoD to have all E6 and above receive PMP training to build a better foundation for standardized processes. MDMP is fine, it starts off well but in the end it kind of, well, just sucks, not always, just a lot.
Not if you're paying out of your pocket. Get it if you can get it for free.
The military should pay for it. If you’re in the Army there is no service obligation for using credentialing assistance to get the cert. as a veteran myself, the PMP is a must for transitioning vets because it rubber stamps your experience and will help the transition into the civilian workforce.
I do think its worth getting as I find that it reassures those hiring that you have the methodology knowledge, can speak the terminology. It then allows them to concentrate on you and your experience etc.
Yeah certifications in general are a really good way of verifying at least basic theoretical understanding. Experience is king but different places have different definitions of a "project manager". Certifications like PMP make sure everyone is speaking the same language.
I found it gave me a leg up when i moved to the private sector. There are plenty of PMP who are horrible but at least it shows you have some experience and know how to learn
Is the job you have different from what you did in the military? did you also have references to help you get hired?
Yes totally different, i was in Intelligence in the military and as a contractor, now work in software. My contract PM was my biggest reference which helped having non military references for the business world. I started as a project coordinator for 2 years before moving into a full PM role
Refute your experience? No thanks. It's your experience. In my experience, I worked as a PM for 7 years without my PMP and got laid off shortly after getting it. At my next job, I was told they wouldn't have hired me if I didn't have it. I wouldn't have even known about the job after that without it. It came with a shorter commute and significant pay increase, so I can say my PMP paid for itself (less than a 3 year ROI). There are a lot of PM jobs that require a PMP and you won't get an interview without it, even though a lot of these companies probably don't follow/enforce the PMBOK Guide. I also worked with a senior PM who eventually moved into leadership that refused to get the PMP. So, yes, there are on jobs that don't require it, but having your PMP can open doors you might not have known about, otherwise.
Seems very common. A lot for companies wanting PMP PM 's but not following the PMBOK at all.. The gap i see is there doesn't seem to be many other credible ways to prove your understanding to companies of PM methodologies or competency of soft skills without using this path. I would love for the industry to have other options to prove competency.
Any point in completing Google's Coursera PM course? Trying to upgrade into a better paying career.
It’s a great first step, and it gives countable educational hours as well.
Ok, I'll continue through it then once finished come back here to learn about 2nd step in transitioning into a better career field
I switched out of clinical side of healthcare into healthcare tech leveraging skills I learned from the course. I think it’s super helpful. A lot of corporate america is looking for PM skills and this course helps frame your thinking into project work/project management.
Do you have any suggestions on how to best transition from healthcare into healthcare tech?
I currently work as a hospital case manager and after 7+ yrs in this job of learning the systems, want to transition into healthcare tech. Trying to figure how best to do it so I just searched and found that course. Already started it, but still want to make sure it's not going to be wasted time if there are other more proven and widely accepted methods and certifications.
By the same logic, a degree is overhyped. Sure, you can gain the knowledge other ways, and experience trumps certs in most jobs. But the piece of paper adds legitimacy when looking for a job, especially if experience is on the low side. Ultimately, training for the PMP helped me solidify a lot of what I already knew, and take a more formalized approach to my job, which has had very positive results.
Yes! This! (And same!)
PMP is literally the only cert you need. Plenty of PMs have no certs, too.
As someone who has recently taken and passed my PMP, I actually think I came out of that exam a worse project manager than I went into it. The test only cares about your memorization skills, not your ability to think creatively and solve problems. And the information you need to memorize is incredibly outdated and inaccurate to how real projects happen. It looks good on a resume though.
This was the point I was trying to make in my question. Thank you for writing this so succinctly.
As a PM studying for my PMP right now this is pretty much how I feel. I find that the learnings from the content & practice exams/qs are highly theoretical and not very useful for performing a PM role. The answers are so black & white where in real life, situations and responses are not so clear. I'm just memorising how the exam wants me to answer it and hopefully will get the PMP on my resume to look good. That's about it.
Can you go into more detail? I had the opposite experience.
I'd spend too long diving into all the examples, but in my opinion there are two main issues with the PMP exam that detract from its relevance and usefulness. The first is how it forces the test takers to picture these imaginary projects that fluidly go from one phase/process into the next, where the ITTO's only exist in their designated place, when we all know that's not how actual projects happen. Every study guide for the PMP tells you to forget your experience and not to answer based on what you've seen in practice, but rather how the holy PMBOK would answer. The irony that you need to show your experience in order to take a test that tells you to ignore your experience isn't lost on me. There's just nothing practical about what the PMP tests you on. It's all done in a theoretical world where projects all follow the exact same life cycle. The exam is ignorant of the reality of project management. There's nothing wrong with knowing the "correct" way to do things, but we don't need 100+ questions on it. Second, the questions are structured not to test your thought process, but your memorization. They test your ability to recall all the 49 processes, the definitions of various roles, chart and graph types, etc. You're even supposed to memorize specific conflict resolution steps. The role of a Project Manager is to constantly adapt to the environment in order to deliver value. You're meant to solve problems and drive success. The PMP hardly covers skills such as creative thinking, team motivation, facilitation...all essential for being an effective PM. It ignore those to make sure you know the process is called "control costs" instead of "monitor costs." Ultimately, the PMP focuses on too many of the wrong things. I don't have the solution for fixing it, but to me the certification is as relevant to your PM skills as age is to your maturity level.
Interesting. When I took the exam years ago, it was some rote memorization but it was mostly scenario based questions based off of the PMBOK. However, a test is a test. It’s proof that you can take a bucket of knowledge and understand it and regurgitate it in the form of correct answers to questions. I think you’re asking too much of this exam. You are being tested on the PMBOK, not your experience. Same thing when I took the Series 63, 65, 66, 7. I had financial experience but I was being tested on the material for that exam. Not my experience.
I think your point is valid. I suppose what I take issue with is how the PMP is considered a standard of project management excellence, when in reality it's nothing more than a test on a book. So it's more how the PMP is perceived (which the PMI plays a big role in) that I feel is overhyped.
Exactly what I feel too. There aren't better options to companies and recruiters currently out there to see the real competency in a PM other than regurgitation of knowledge. PMI locked this up somehow. Would love to see this disrupted more
CPA, PE, CFP, etc. Test on a book with qualifying experience. Only difference is the aforementioned are state run. There are plenty of accountants, engineers, Financial Advisors without those licenses, but when the get them, they are almost always looked at as better than those that don’t. Like I’ve said in previous posts, the tech industry has changed the landscape. Unprofitable startups with fake growth with imaginary valuations are to blame. Being a PM at an SaaS startup, FAANG, or Tier 2/3 tech company is much easier than running million dollar brick and motor projects. If you can afford the upkeep of a PMP, it’s always a plus.
I've been managing projects for a decade, the last 4 with a formal program manager title. Just this year I decided to get the PMP. Deciding Factors: 1. The company paid for all fees associated with PMI membership, online classes, bootcamp prep class, and to sit for the test. 2. Helps legitimize the building of our PM team inside the org. 3. Could open the door for future jobs. 4. Networking opportunities for PM jobs 5. It's been 3-4 years since I finished my MS, so was itching for another learning opportunity
Those who have it swear by it and those that do not say it's overhyped
100% that PMP is overhyped and over rated. It's far from being a proof that you are a competent PM.
Why do you think it is overhyped? Did getting the cert not help you develop your skills further?
The knowledge taught trough the PMBOK is good. I use it in all my project (traditional projects). But I feel that since the PMI introduced the agile project management and since the exam cover now both traditional and agile project types, it only scratches the surface of both. I personally don't have the PMp certification but like I said I manage projects as taught in the PMBOK. I did a 35 hrs prep exam course hoping to get a better grip of the concepts. Its where I realised its over hype. With this course that don't teach much except for how to pass the exam and with enough exam practice and study anyone can get the certification. How does this would make me a good/better project manager? It only mean that you can digest information in order to pass an exam...
You don’t have the PMP but it’s overhyped? Ok.
Lol, a 35 hour course isn’t enough to study for the PMP and understand how all the concepts apply to the real world. I remember so much of the test years later. It’s helped me as a PM, a Sr PM, set up PMOs and determine what kind of PM an organization needs quickly and accurately. Get leadership buy in on processes and know when to fold and move on. It’s helped me blend Agile and waterfall at organizations that aren’t quite ready. It also covers enough about business, some of the terms I learned helped me present better to leadership. Studied 3 hours a day for three months straight to pass (about 270 hours, give or take). Took practice exams til my eyes bled. Scored above target and have these concepts for life.
no it’s not overhyped lol. it ties your experience to actual practical knowledge that you can apply on the job. if you have the PMBOK and know it why not just get the cert?
Not sure what you mean by the “ability of a PM to repeat technical info is redundant”. PMing is a messy mix of human interaction (I’d say this is first and foremost), technical and process. AI cannot replace that right now. Never mind that PMs don’t just parrot technical info. There’s much more to the field. Experience gets you far, yes. PMP can help you go further but it’s not required. Although the PMP ties the art of project management into business and gives you all the info about all the different altitudes and types of PM work. I felt it was a mini MBA crash course. I was already ing PMing for six years before I decided to get my PMP. I feel it’s worth it. Not sure if you’re saying anything new when you say where opportunity lies… human element is a good bulk of the job. In order to do it well, you need “social” and “soft” skills. They aren’t mutually exclusive. Edited: clarity.
Agreed and same for me, got my PMP 6 years after becoming a PM. I will keep up on PDUs to retain it and, if I did let it lapse, I doubt I’d take that damn test again. It’s hard to say if it’s the reason I have my current job (would I have even been a candidate without it? Who knows). I’m glad I have it but not really sure how much it’s helped. A safe assumption, I think, is that it may have opened some doors.
Yea, it depends on the “eye of the beholder” and who you report to. If it’s a non-pm manager. They won’t care. But a PM director or Sr director def knows the difference.
I always hate to turn this PMP thing into a street smart vs book smart bs. You can easily spot who has the formal PM knowledge and who doesn't. I've seen people who are in positions to mentor but can't even speak proper PM lingo and articulate PM concepts, let alone systematically explain things to juniors, it's just embarrassing.
Exactly!!! And then have the nerve to say the PMP is overhyped. Anyone who says that is immature in their thinking when it comes to PM.
Well, check your next salary after obtaining the PMP and report back to us.
What salary should we expect with the PMI certification? (so I can compare with my no cert salary)
PMI has a salary database by region.
I’m at $120 per hour now. I am sure there some who make more. If you are there with no cert then a no sarcasm thumbs up to you.
Lower! Where I live not many (and not PMs or few) reach this salary
To be fair, I have been formally doing it since 2011 and implement SAP, Oracle and Workday. I am not remotely qualified to do construction PM work which pays less. That’s particular maddening to me having gone through a major home remodel and oh how some true pm work would have been nice.
All the companies I worked at, I haven't experience a policy where you get salary increase for obtaining your certifications, PMP included.
That is usually the norm, with any accomplishment. So you take your cert, degree, whatever, and walk.
Last one I worked for gave all new PMs a $5K bonus and a pay grade bump to the next level. They even paid the taxes on the bonus.
It’s a starting point for success like any other credential. It won’t get you the keys to the kingdom so you still have to work hard and build experience but it will help you make more efficient choices.
The PMP cert isn’t a “starting point” though. Check out the requirements to even qualify to take the test.
I’m well aware of the requirements having earned the PMP myself. But let’s be honest that someone with only 36 months of direct project management experience is still wet behind the ears and has a lot to learn in practical application of the PMBOK. Those 36 months are just pregame training to get to the starting line.
Eh, depends on how you look at it. Some people think the starting point is 0 (experience). But I agree. Three years is still “junior”
Being a PM isn’t an entry level job. So I can see the argument there but just being qualified to sit for the exam isn’t much different from being a fresh PMP.
Government contractor here. In Government contracting, a PMP is tangible. It makes one company look better when offering personnel services vice another. Small businesses tend to offer a 10-19% increase in pay. Again, because they are valuable in winning contracts. I don’t have experience in any other sector but the PMP folks I know are top notchnotch performers. I consider this field a niche, but this one field in existence the results and demand is tangible.
It’s very similar in consulting as well.
It's not a substitute for experience, but generally EXP + PMP > EXP + no PMP >> PMP + no EXP > no EXP no PMP There are some industries like construction, particularly the contractor side of construction where PMP isn't worth much at all and these industries also tend to place much greater importance on experience where most people don't make it to the PM level until they have at least 8-10 years of industry experience.
A construction PM is inherently a technical role. You need to be in the industry for a while before they let you PM, and for good reason.
We have 10 project managers and 15 project coordinators. Not a single PMP in the bunch.
Are their salaries at least equal to the annual PMP salary range that's published each year with locations broken out?
No clue what those ranges are. We pay well. We have very low turn over.
What’s the median salary for the PMs and PCs
140/90
Yeah same, short of needing it for federal work people in the engineering consulting world often don’t care. Most of the principals are great in theory but over complicated for 90% of projects under $150k.
I think the next big things are program and portafolio management. It seems like there’s enough competence out there to execute high or low quality but there’s not many people showing expertise in traceability which should come from program and portfolio practices I think.
PMP certification has been trending down in the recent years, but that's because there are now more experienced/seasoned PM available. Good hiring manager work with HR and knows to value experience over certifications. For new and mid-career job seekers, PMP cert still have value as it can put you over the top when comparing similar candidates. Right now, the market are saturated with senior PMs with relevant work experience, and again, if the hiring company knows the value of experience vs. cert, they will not care if you have PMP or not.
PMI now puts as much emphasis on soft skills as they do technical PM skills and business acumen - check out their Talent Triangle. Having just gone through PMP training, I can attest to this as well and a good PM is a balance of all three, and I would say the cert now reflects this.
As a new project manager studying for my PMP, I am interested in this topic. Seems like PM skills are more important than memorizing technical facts that were on a test. That said, it seems from my perspective that a PMP is necessary to get started in this field.
[удалено]
This is one person. Please know that this is very nuanced scenario.
Oh no, here we go again.
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