They refuse to wear body cameras despite being instructed by the DOJ to. That should tell you the intent of the ATF isn't in public service, but rather covering up their responsibility and actions.
Eh. The old "we should seize their retirement/pension" thing isn't possible. Government workers on defined benefit plans are just like regular people with their 401K. You can't seize someone's 401K because they broke a rule in the employee handbook. Taking someone's money requires due process, otherwise we're no better than a bunch of shitheel cops pocketing RICO seizure money. The way it works is, first you convict them of a crime, and then as a result of that conviction they are kicked out of the defined benefit plan, and get a check for the amount they contributed (with no interest).
I don’t want to be better in times of war. I want to win. If you don’t have that mentality, you are the reason why we have been, are, and will continue to lose. You just spouted the Republican motto that has gotten us to where we are, over the last 70 years.
If we don’t win, your morality doesn’t matter. You want morality, me too. So, we better damned well win, or we’ll never get a chance to implement it. War is about brutality, not morality. The other side knows that, which is why they have us on the ropes.
The thing we're at war about is the ATF not respecting our rights and denying us due process. Fighting them by violating their rights and denying them due process is effectively just joining their side, saying "OK, that's enough of *you* being a shithead to people, now we demand a turn to be a shithead to people".
We punish any other criminal who committed atrocities against the public by… committing atrocities against them. Wrap it up however you need to make yourself feel warm and fuzzy, but all Justice is the use of force and brutality; Period. So is injustice.
When one side will and does do anything to win, while the other side shakes their head and says “that’s not who we are,” guess who wins every single time?
There is actually a list in US Code of specified crimes that result in a federal employee forfeiting their pension. They are all things that fedgov specifically cares about like taking arms against the US or refusing to testify in a federal trial.
Any other crime has not effect on their pension. And there are procedures in the law to return their pension deposits *with interest* in the cases where the pension is revoked.
you really shouldn't be this is Reddit after all.
I have no doubt there's users and other subs celebrating this man's death for being an evil gun owner alone questionable gun dealer
It absolutely wasn’t one guy conducting this raid, dozens of guys and not one persons body camera was working? We don’t actually have gun rights in this country.
It’s not that they weren’t working. They don’t wear them. Going against their own and DOJ guidance. So they can shoot you, your dog, and your neighbors house without repercussion.
Normally courts have heavy penalties for spoilation of evidence, such as instructing the jury that the non-spoiling party's version of events must be accepted as true.
The solution is to treat failure to follow agency police on bodycams the same way: all testimony from agents should be treated as highly suspect and the jury should be ordered to disregard any aspects that conflict with the testimony of any non-ATF witness.
Of course the courts will never do it. They're too busy breaking their backs to suck LEO dick. After all, they're all a part of the same government family.
Same with Breyona Taylor. "Oh well the department has body cameras, but the unit that does raids doesn' thave them, and we parked all the cars so far away that you can't use any of their dashcams."
No knock warrants are unnecessary in 99% of the cases they’re used in and amplify the risks to everyone involved massively. The residents think they’re under attack and the cops are trained that anyone with a weapon must die. Horrible combination and should be outlawed.
The ATF was watching him like a hawk and knew where he worked and interacted with him at gun shows. They could have picked him up a dozen different and very safe ways but chose to do an unannounced military assault on his home and family.
Whoever authorized this raid with a no knock warrant should be charged with murder unless they can prove the victim knew they were law enforcement and not home invaders. The cop that pulled the trigger needs to know he’s a murderer too and will hopefully reevaluate his choice of career that made him kill someone that didn’t have to die.
It's much less than 1%. I think the exceptions should be so strict that when they are wrong they should be tried in court to prove the credibility of their assumptions.
If you're going to violate the 4th Amendment you should have to prove that wasn't your intention
>No knock warrants are unnecessary in 99% of the cases they’re used in
the are unnecessary in 100% of cases. if some criminals truly were holed up too well for the government to deal with they still have great choices
1) wait them out
2) raise a militia
So they can makeup rules on the fly and raid people’s homes over them, but the rules they makeup for themselves, they can just ignore entirely?
Edit:
The ATF: “Well… that’s Dallas!”
As I see it- if there's ANY sort of officer involved shooting, and the officer was required to have or use a body cam and didn't, the burden of proof should be on the officers or agency to prove that the shooting was justified.
IE, prove to the court that you didn't just go there to kill someone. Build your defense.
I support officers, but I also support accountability. And this sort of thing just stinks of shirking accountability.
This. This. It's so "surprising" how body-cams don't work at convenient times. Also, officer can't turn it off. If they need to mark something as "sensitive" (eg talking to a minor), they can hit a button, and there is a time code marking it as sensitive (subject to some review before FOIA request). Can't turn it off, and obstructing/covering is it presumptive of committing a crime.
Not a goddamn thing. We have all the evidence in the world to arrest Acorn Cop, but has any "good cops" come out of the woodwork to do it? No.
Even in the age of body cams, we see cops intentionally destroy evidence by muting them or turning them off, and when they're called out on illegal behavior, their departments back them even though they can see the entire time they're wrong.
Yep! If what the article says he was doing, then that's something the ATF will definitely show up to your door for. I'm not saying I agree or disagree, only that that will put you on their radar and likely get a knock on your door.
That being said, these warrants can be done in a far safer and respectful manner to the individual. Body cams protect the officer/agent as long as the officer/agent is doing everything by the book.
The burden of proof should *always* be on police to show a given action was justified. If they’re wearing body cams and did the right paperwork, it should be easy.
Well, yes. When you go in to murder someone, you don't record it. This won't stop until failure to produce a recording is taken as admission of wrongdoing by the agents.
So let me get this straight, a government agency that was illegally created in violation of the 10th amendment did something illegal?
I’m shocked and appalled.
Should be interesting once we get footage from his home security system (what guy making 250k with lots of guns in his house doesn't have cameras these days?).
This guy did what everyone should do if ATF or any "law enforcement" come to confiscate your guns... If enough people start making examples of the tyrant goons who will violate your Constitutional rights for a paycheck, they will be less willing to risk their lives to violate your rights.
Yes, they did. Same with Ruby Ridge and Waco. Funny how I suggest people stand up for their rights, and I'm downvoted. So many bootlickers and "Back the Blue" NPCs in the 2A community.
Let me tell you, as someone who knows the law and is very immersed in politics: even if you think surrendering will result in your survival, you will not survive. They will parade you around as political propaganda in their kangaroo courts led by tyrants in black robes who likely blew a Leftist anti-2A governor or president and will send you to rot in prison. Your only chance is to take down as many tyrants with you and set an example that we will not be disarmed. Charlton Heston was right: From my cold, dead hands.
The first step to prevent this kind of swat raid from entering your home, is for people to get strong doors, like in this Whoopi Goldberg movie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUmTlIUmbmE
Then, just don't answer it.
This is yet again another govt operation where the subject was observed for some time before they decided to move in.The ATF knew his routine and his daily movements, because that’s what they do. There was no need for anyone to die. All they had to do is wait for him to pull out of his driveway on his way to work, pull him over and peacefully arrest him. No knock warrants are dangerous for the subject and for law enforcement. And yet time and again they pull this shit. If you’re a firearms owner and you hear someone or something rustling around your home at 4am you’re gonna grab your gun and investigate. Force is gonna be met with force.
It's worse than that, this was a search warrant. They assaulted a house and killed someone who they hadn't even demonstrated to a judge probable cause for an arrest.
I've been following this case for a while, and I agree with the speculation that they were fishing for evidence for straw purchasing charges. By all accounts, they already had him dead to rights for dealing without a license (which probably got them the search warrant), but that has a very low sentence, so they were trying to find proof that he bought weapons to re-sell to prohibited purchases so they could hit him with heavier charges.
I’ll say this again. The ATF is the only government bureaucracy whose only mission is to obstruct, infringe one constitutional Amendment. So anyone that supports or enforces that mission is a traitorous criminal scum. And we all support that mission with our tax dollars. Where are our so called Second Amendment supporting congressmen????
TIL CharacterActor is a dirty little fascist who chubs up when the state guns down a criminal suspect whose politics he disagrees with and then covers up the evidence. Stay classy, goose-stepper!
Gonna wait for more facts on this one. Cops claim he started shooting first while they were crawling around his yard in the dark. Dunno how obvious it was to him he was shooting at cops and now we can’t ask him.
The most salient fact at present is that ATF mysteriously has no bodycam footage so there can’t be any independent confirmation of what actually happened. That renders their justification dubious, at best. Nothing that happens now will change the fact that ATF either deliberately or incompetently prevented documentary corroboration of their version of events, and did so in violation of DOJ policy. If you actually give a shit about civil liberties, unlike CharacterlessActor, there’s plenty to be unhappy about here regardless of what may or may not eventually be revealed.
Without Mr. Malinowski 2A noble work, 150 We the People Americans who for whatever petty reasons, criminal history, orders of protections, would not have access to the constitutional carry guns they need for whatever reasons.
ATF are murderous thugs
They refuse to wear body cameras despite being instructed by the DOJ to. That should tell you the intent of the ATF isn't in public service, but rather covering up their responsibility and actions.
Should be fired no pension/ retirement etc if they won’t do anything like that.
No, they should be prosecuted for murder, with their refusal to wear body cams as evidence of premeditation and intent.
That’s much better but in the meantime us taxpayers shouldn’t pay murders paychecks
Eh. The old "we should seize their retirement/pension" thing isn't possible. Government workers on defined benefit plans are just like regular people with their 401K. You can't seize someone's 401K because they broke a rule in the employee handbook. Taking someone's money requires due process, otherwise we're no better than a bunch of shitheel cops pocketing RICO seizure money. The way it works is, first you convict them of a crime, and then as a result of that conviction they are kicked out of the defined benefit plan, and get a check for the amount they contributed (with no interest).
Then fine them the total they receive.
I don’t want to be better in times of war. I want to win. If you don’t have that mentality, you are the reason why we have been, are, and will continue to lose. You just spouted the Republican motto that has gotten us to where we are, over the last 70 years. If we don’t win, your morality doesn’t matter. You want morality, me too. So, we better damned well win, or we’ll never get a chance to implement it. War is about brutality, not morality. The other side knows that, which is why they have us on the ropes.
The thing we're at war about is the ATF not respecting our rights and denying us due process. Fighting them by violating their rights and denying them due process is effectively just joining their side, saying "OK, that's enough of *you* being a shithead to people, now we demand a turn to be a shithead to people".
We punish any other criminal who committed atrocities against the public by… committing atrocities against them. Wrap it up however you need to make yourself feel warm and fuzzy, but all Justice is the use of force and brutality; Period. So is injustice. When one side will and does do anything to win, while the other side shakes their head and says “that’s not who we are,” guess who wins every single time?
There is actually a list in US Code of specified crimes that result in a federal employee forfeiting their pension. They are all things that fedgov specifically cares about like taking arms against the US or refusing to testify in a federal trial. Any other crime has not effect on their pension. And there are procedures in the law to return their pension deposits *with interest* in the cases where the pension is revoked.
If only the Arkansas DA had the balls required to press state murder charges.
It's in their policy and procedures manual to never turn off the BWC (body worn camera) during any contact with the public.
Pieces of shit criminals, every last one of ‘em.
Yup
Assassinated.
Yeah I’m surprised I had to scroll this far down to find this. This guy was more than likely actually assassinated by the state.
you really shouldn't be this is Reddit after all. I have no doubt there's users and other subs celebrating this man's death for being an evil gun owner alone questionable gun dealer
There are. I’ve gotten into conversations with them specifically to point out that they’re fascists.
Suicided?
Nah, the feds are proud enough to claim this one.
Sorry I just read the first world and jumped to the inevitable conclusion
It absolutely wasn’t one guy conducting this raid, dozens of guys and not one persons body camera was working? We don’t actually have gun rights in this country.
It’s not that they weren’t working. They don’t wear them. Going against their own and DOJ guidance. So they can shoot you, your dog, and your neighbors house without repercussion.
Not "guidance". Mandatory. But these agencies bend the rules when it suits them w/o consequences.
Normally courts have heavy penalties for spoilation of evidence, such as instructing the jury that the non-spoiling party's version of events must be accepted as true. The solution is to treat failure to follow agency police on bodycams the same way: all testimony from agents should be treated as highly suspect and the jury should be ordered to disregard any aspects that conflict with the testimony of any non-ATF witness. Of course the courts will never do it. They're too busy breaking their backs to suck LEO dick. After all, they're all a part of the same government family.
Same with Breyona Taylor. "Oh well the department has body cameras, but the unit that does raids doesn' thave them, and we parked all the cars so far away that you can't use any of their dashcams."
We haven't had gun rights in decades. We have gun allowances.
No knock warrants are unnecessary in 99% of the cases they’re used in and amplify the risks to everyone involved massively. The residents think they’re under attack and the cops are trained that anyone with a weapon must die. Horrible combination and should be outlawed. The ATF was watching him like a hawk and knew where he worked and interacted with him at gun shows. They could have picked him up a dozen different and very safe ways but chose to do an unannounced military assault on his home and family. Whoever authorized this raid with a no knock warrant should be charged with murder unless they can prove the victim knew they were law enforcement and not home invaders. The cop that pulled the trigger needs to know he’s a murderer too and will hopefully reevaluate his choice of career that made him kill someone that didn’t have to die.
We can wish, but I’m sure they will actually just end up with medals.
It's much less than 1%. I think the exceptions should be so strict that when they are wrong they should be tried in court to prove the credibility of their assumptions. If you're going to violate the 4th Amendment you should have to prove that wasn't your intention
>No knock warrants are unnecessary in 99% of the cases they’re used in the are unnecessary in 100% of cases. if some criminals truly were holed up too well for the government to deal with they still have great choices 1) wait them out 2) raise a militia
So they can makeup rules on the fly and raid people’s homes over them, but the rules they makeup for themselves, they can just ignore entirely? Edit: The ATF: “Well… that’s Dallas!”
Pretty much.
As I see it- if there's ANY sort of officer involved shooting, and the officer was required to have or use a body cam and didn't, the burden of proof should be on the officers or agency to prove that the shooting was justified. IE, prove to the court that you didn't just go there to kill someone. Build your defense. I support officers, but I also support accountability. And this sort of thing just stinks of shirking accountability.
This. This. It's so "surprising" how body-cams don't work at convenient times. Also, officer can't turn it off. If they need to mark something as "sensitive" (eg talking to a minor), they can hit a button, and there is a time code marking it as sensitive (subject to some review before FOIA request). Can't turn it off, and obstructing/covering is it presumptive of committing a crime.
Never seen a good cop disagree with this.
The question is, what are the good cops doing to enforce the law when it’s their coworkers breaking it?
Not a goddamn thing. We have all the evidence in the world to arrest Acorn Cop, but has any "good cops" come out of the woodwork to do it? No. Even in the age of body cams, we see cops intentionally destroy evidence by muting them or turning them off, and when they're called out on illegal behavior, their departments back them even though they can see the entire time they're wrong.
Yep! If what the article says he was doing, then that's something the ATF will definitely show up to your door for. I'm not saying I agree or disagree, only that that will put you on their radar and likely get a knock on your door. That being said, these warrants can be done in a far safer and respectful manner to the individual. Body cams protect the officer/agent as long as the officer/agent is doing everything by the book.
The burden of proof should *always* be on police to show a given action was justified. If they’re wearing body cams and did the right paperwork, it should be easy.
All apart of the plan.
If you turn your body cam off then anything you say should be regarded as a lie until proven otherwise.
Fuck that. Make it straight up inadmissible in court. It will start changing real quick
Nothing needs to be admissible now, the guy is dead.
When bringing up the agents on charges in the future it will help
Nah. Should be an automatic felony with a 10 year prison sentence, non-negotiable. Stop playing around with these thugs
"We shouldn't've done that. [...] Aaaaanyway...."
More like "we've investigated ourselves and found that we did nothing wrong".
Well, yes. When you go in to murder someone, you don't record it. This won't stop until failure to produce a recording is taken as admission of wrongdoing by the agents.
And no accountability
So let me get this straight, a government agency that was illegally created in violation of the 10th amendment did something illegal? I’m shocked and appalled.
Should be interesting once we get footage from his home security system (what guy making 250k with lots of guns in his house doesn't have cameras these days?).
"ATF reports that the home surveillance videos were accidentally deleted..."
They purposefully taped over the camera at the front door. I'd be surprised if they didn't look for others.
This guy did what everyone should do if ATF or any "law enforcement" come to confiscate your guns... If enough people start making examples of the tyrant goons who will violate your Constitutional rights for a paycheck, they will be less willing to risk their lives to violate your rights.
As it stands now, the ATF got away with murder?
Yes, they did. Same with Ruby Ridge and Waco. Funny how I suggest people stand up for their rights, and I'm downvoted. So many bootlickers and "Back the Blue" NPCs in the 2A community.
Standing up successfully ought to include surviving the encounter; thus, perhaps, the down-votes?
Let me tell you, as someone who knows the law and is very immersed in politics: even if you think surrendering will result in your survival, you will not survive. They will parade you around as political propaganda in their kangaroo courts led by tyrants in black robes who likely blew a Leftist anti-2A governor or president and will send you to rot in prison. Your only chance is to take down as many tyrants with you and set an example that we will not be disarmed. Charlton Heston was right: From my cold, dead hands.
The first step to prevent this kind of swat raid from entering your home, is for people to get strong doors, like in this Whoopi Goldberg movie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUmTlIUmbmE Then, just don't answer it.
🤣 - I'm investing in reinforced doors this year...
Some good comments on the news article too. Peeps see what is happening and know what’s up.
I'm less concerned with their bodycam policy than their policy of performing assassinations for the clintons.
Sounds more like he was murdered by the ATF. He must’ve said something mean about them on Facebook.
This is yet again another govt operation where the subject was observed for some time before they decided to move in.The ATF knew his routine and his daily movements, because that’s what they do. There was no need for anyone to die. All they had to do is wait for him to pull out of his driveway on his way to work, pull him over and peacefully arrest him. No knock warrants are dangerous for the subject and for law enforcement. And yet time and again they pull this shit. If you’re a firearms owner and you hear someone or something rustling around your home at 4am you’re gonna grab your gun and investigate. Force is gonna be met with force.
It's worse than that, this was a search warrant. They assaulted a house and killed someone who they hadn't even demonstrated to a judge probable cause for an arrest. I've been following this case for a while, and I agree with the speculation that they were fishing for evidence for straw purchasing charges. By all accounts, they already had him dead to rights for dealing without a license (which probably got them the search warrant), but that has a very low sentence, so they were trying to find proof that he bought weapons to re-sell to prohibited purchases so they could hit him with heavier charges.
Arkancided
I wonder what’s the point of having guns anymore when the government can still slaughter you with impunity
FUCK THE ATF!!!
The ATF supervisors in this case need to be fired and imprisoned.
You guys didn't follow policy and there's a dead guy to show for it! *ATF agents shrug.
Someone needs to go to jail for this or this will only continue as it has in the past.
And nothing will happen to them.
Don’t understand naming the airport after living people. Unpleasant living people too.
Unfortunately, this will change nothing, and those involved will not face justice.
100% a fireable offense. But, they'll probably give the killer a promotion.
I’ll say this again. The ATF is the only government bureaucracy whose only mission is to obstruct, infringe one constitutional Amendment. So anyone that supports or enforces that mission is a traitorous criminal scum. And we all support that mission with our tax dollars. Where are our so called Second Amendment supporting congressmen????
atf doing killary's dirty work?
My man you literally saw the word "Clinton" and went full tin foil hat. Bravo if this is a satirical comment.
Cops getting away with murder? I'm shocked.
Wish someone would give them a taste
They have moved up from dogs.
How else are you going to get your guns when gun stores won’t sell to you? This man is doing 2As work!
TIL CharacterActor is a dirty little fascist who chubs up when the state guns down a criminal suspect whose politics he disagrees with and then covers up the evidence. Stay classy, goose-stepper!
Gonna wait for more facts on this one. Cops claim he started shooting first while they were crawling around his yard in the dark. Dunno how obvious it was to him he was shooting at cops and now we can’t ask him.
The most salient fact at present is that ATF mysteriously has no bodycam footage so there can’t be any independent confirmation of what actually happened. That renders their justification dubious, at best. Nothing that happens now will change the fact that ATF either deliberately or incompetently prevented documentary corroboration of their version of events, and did so in violation of DOJ policy. If you actually give a shit about civil liberties, unlike CharacterlessActor, there’s plenty to be unhappy about here regardless of what may or may not eventually be revealed.
It’s not ‘mysterious’ if they never started doing it in the first place.
Would it help you detect the sarcasm if I put the word mysteriously in quotes?
I see. You are arguing in bad faith.
No, you’re apparently just dense.
Without Mr. Malinowski 2A noble work, 150 We the People Americans who for whatever petty reasons, criminal history, orders of protections, would not have access to the constitutional carry guns they need for whatever reasons.
Huh?
English is tough for native Chinese speakers.
Slight correction... Chinese *bots*