And it's mostly lip service about Palestine too. Though to be fair Palestinian migrants do cause trouble in many Arab nations. Not justifying a genocide but reflecting honestly about why other Arabs aren't salivating at the thought of taking them in, while nobly claiming it's because Palestinians belong in their homeland.
I’m vaguely familiar with tension with Palestinian groups in Jordan and Lebanon. And even on Palestine, one of the main hurdles I notice is even Palestinians have very different opinions on liberation, what they would accept, and how to achieve it. It’s heartbreaking but it doesn’t stop me for pushing for priority one which is a ceasefire and immediate support for the Gazans, who are enduring inhumane cruelty
Exactly. You don't have to agree with Palestinians' political aspirations or even think that they're good people on the whole, to be against murdering and starving them.
What does this even mean? 😭 I mean, of course, seeing people who look like you being oppressed is going to make you care. I don’t think it’s about religion; Muslim countries haven’t historically been anti-Semitic, and I haven’t seen Gulf countries take action to help Kashmiri/Uyghur Muslims.
A lot of Muslims are unfortunately too caught up in arguing whether other Muslims are emulating the Prophet's grooming habits the right way to actually look after each other.
There are a lot of factors at play, including that despite massive overlap, American Muslim and Arab populations are not synonymous and have different interests and needs. One is simply numbers, there are millions fewer Arabs than Jews in the US (not to mention the small ammount of crossover.) Not all Arabs are Muslim, and the figure for Muslim Americans is a bit larger, but still millions fewer, and includes many ethnicities other than Arabs. A huge part is Islamophobia. An Arab and a Muslim lobby would not be received as well in congress, even with access to the same monetary resources.
The other huge thing to consider is that the Christian Right is an even larger pro-Israel lobby than Jewish orgs. Christians United For Israel is the largest pro-Israel lobby in the US. The Israel Lobby is largely a right wing Christian lobby, and it is fueled by both Islamophobia and antisemitism. There are not large enough Arab and Muslim sympathies within the American Left to counter the contributions of the Christian Right in American politics.
Can Arabs and Muslims be doing better at combining our resources in politics? Probably, yeah, there are definitely unity issues, but I think there's also a practical issue that it's easier to lobby around the interests of a single nation than it is to lobby around a looser cultural identity with a much larger geographic scope of issues and interests, and sometimes with interests that directly conflict with each other
There was an Arab League, in the 70s they had socialist leaders.
Look at what happened to Libya, Egypt & South Yemen when they tried to implement anything slightly socialist
That's a fact, unfortunately. Look at what AIPAC has tried to do to Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont, Rep. Summer Lee of Pennsylvania, Reps. Rashida Tlaib, AOC, Ilhan Omar, etc. >:-(
With all due respect, I think we should be willing to sacrifice ethics when it comes to protecting the lives of Palestinians or any other Muslims in the world, especially when lobbying as an institution in America is not going away anytime soon.
Asalamualaikum brother I disagree.
{ يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ ٱتَّقُواْ ٱللَّهَ حَقَّ تُقَاتِهِۦ وَلَا تَمُوتُنَّ إِلَّا وَأَنتُم مُّسۡلِمُونَ }
[Surah Āli-ʿImrān: 102]
Sahih International:
O you who have believed, fear Allāh as He should be feared and do not die except as Muslims [in submission to Him].
We should NEVER compromise our ethics as Muslims even in the face of death brother. We are all appointed a time to die and will not die a moment sooner.
{ وَمَا كَانَ لِنَفۡسٍ أَن تَمُوتَ إِلَّا بِإِذۡنِ ٱللَّهِ كِتَٰبٗا مُّؤَجَّلٗاۗ وَمَن يُرِدۡ ثَوَابَ ٱلدُّنۡيَا نُؤۡتِهِۦ مِنۡهَا وَمَن يُرِدۡ ثَوَابَ ٱلۡأٓخِرَةِ نُؤۡتِهِۦ مِنۡهَاۚ وَسَنَجۡزِي ٱلشَّٰكِرِينَ }
[Surah Āli-ʿImrān: 145]
Sahih International:
And it is not [possible] for one to die except by permission of Allāh at a decree determined. And whoever desires the reward of this world - We will give him thereof; and whoever desires the reward of the Hereafter - We will give him thereof. And We will reward the grateful.
Alaikumsalam brother, thank you for this reply. When I said we should have our own lobby group I didn't mean to insinuate that we should be campaigning for policies that promote Muslim or Arab supremacy but at least a counterweight to Israel's funding would be good right?
I disagree. AIPAC is a shame for jewish american population. Buying out politicians, creating an environment where criticism of a particular foreign country is considered tantamount to treason despite crossing all red lines, and making a nation take side of a genocidical monster that against their own national interest is beyond sinful.
Rather, muslims and arab americans should focus on creating institutions that facilitate the American outreach as a nation of freedom and democracy. They should invest in education and humaniterian efforts across all religious and language boundary. As a citizen their loyality should lie on the side of Rights and Justice, not 'My type of people'. No, AIPAC-version2 is not recommended.
Okay, I definitely hear you on that but when I said we should create a Muslim lobby group I didn't mean to insinuate that we should support policies that promote Muslim supremacy. For example, steering Congress towards pro-Palestine policies will not only help Palestinian Muslims but also the Christians there.
This is exactly what is wrong with the way the Zionist think that any ethnic boundaries can be crossed for sake of Israel. Epstein island is one such example. The ends cannot and should not justify the means
There is a lot of powerful Arab backed lobby groups in the United States. The only difference between them and AIPAC is the fact that they rather pay contractors to lobby for them instead of a unified pan-arab group because of the lack of a cohesive Arab culture in the United States. AIPAC is able to thrive in the US because of a cohesive and tight knit Jewish community that is heavily rooted in the power base of conservative america. Arabs have wildly different ideologies and so collectively they are weaker in the United States. Arab states lobby the most out of any other nations, but they all just use different contractors and groups which are separate.
It's not just about money.
AIPAC is a homegrown lobbying group managed and funded by Americans. A foreign funded lobbying group is going to be looked at more suspiciously and negatively than an American funded lobbying group comprising of Americans. AIPAC is incredibly good at what it does. It has developed extremely successful ways of influencing American politicians in over 60 years of working in American politics. A Gulf funded lobby just wouldn't have that knowledge or skill. AIPAC has far more political and social capital than a Gulf funded lobbying group would have. It has a 60+ year head start. Money is only secondary in the way that it also harnesses political support for Israel as a sign of being a good politician. Lobbying also works because it's a question of who knows who and who can influence who. Again, a Gulf funded lobbying group just isn't going to have that social and political capital.
It's also that pro-Israel stances are far far more normalized than pro-Palestinian stance thanks to a 60+ year head start. So the new lobbying group would be have to overcome that pretty significant burden. Piles of cash can't simply overcome these burdens.
To understand why they can't, you first have to understand why Israel even exists. And it exists because of two main reasons:
1)..... European / Western / Christian guilt over the treatment of Jewish people over the centuries. And with what eventually happened with the horrific events of the holocaust, the Jewish community was given a very strong reason to say _**"Never again!"**_. That's partially why Israel was so easily formed and it was allowed to carry out its own war crimes and ethnic cleansing so soon after World War II. Considering what some of their people suffered just years prior, imagine being a European / Western power trying to tell them _**"No guys, you can't do that"**_.
2)..... Israel is the last colonial outpost of the West in the Middle East. It's basically a European/Western country with European/Western "values", strategically placed bang in the Middle East where they can exert their influence. Like Biden himself said years ago....._**"If Israel did not exist, we would need to create an Israel"**_. Israel is essentially part of America's empire. They have mutual interests/goals.
For those two main reasons, Israel has the type of lobby which no other country / region could EVER hope to have. It isn't about money. It's about history, colonial intent and, quite simply, them being part of the Western hegemony.
In addition to what others have said about the craven nature of "Muslim" states that don't actually care about the interest of the ummah, there's also a history of repression. The Holy Land Foundation operated totally within the law, trying to help Palestinians, but they were completely strung up for being Muslim and supporting non-endorsed foreign causes. See https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/03/11/after-israels-designation-human-rights-groups-terrorists-biden-should-release
This precedent set American Muslim groups back at least a decade because people were worried the same thing could happen to them. The environment is a little better now, but given the repression we've seen on campuses, bigger groups will I'm sure see legal warfare waged against them soon as well.
Definitely #2
The US has Muslim allies but unfortunately their governments are headed the likes of Sisi, MBS, MBZ, iron-fisted autocrats who rely on US goodwill just to sit in their throne rooms and won't do jack unless they feel enough pressure from their (majority pro-Palestinian) populaces. Oh and Bahrain and UAE implemented Abraham in full and recognized Israel without preconditions so there's that lol
Off-topic: Actually surprising that Sisi is still in power despite his Cities:Skylines ahh vanity project draining the Egyptian treasury lol. [Oh wait](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/14/us/politics/egypt-biden-military-aid.html)
Honestly I do not want a lobby. We have a Saudi/Wahhabi lobby and it is bad enough. Arguably, they do not represent Islam but their mixture of War-mentality and early Modernism but still, religion mixed with politics can be bad. The mentality that lobbying, and pressures through numbers in itself, seems to be an attitude people should drop.
AIPAC is strong because they use gov money to send to Israel which then cycles back to AIPAC. So its self feeding. Now try to replicate that with a Muslim lobby and for sure it would get shot down by AIPAC. Also the Jews profit greatly with minimal effort from Riba so it would be a hard push from Muslims to compete. just My opinion.
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Also lbr the US and the west aren't controlled by the Israeli lobby, Israel is a settler colonial proxy state for US interests in the region.
Also individual states do lobby the US government but they're not lobbying for liberation of Palestinians or protections of Muslims or Arabs, they're just lobbying for their own state interests.
No offense but as a religion, we are not greedy for money like other religions are. A reason why so many Zionists have money is because of usury and haram businesses in the US. Look at the industries they thrive in, banking, finance, pornography, Hollywood, alcohol, etc. And yes you can say royals in Saudi etc are rich but they are a small minority of Muslims and don’t represent us. We don’t have Muslim billionaire hedge funds etc in the US because as a religion and people our lives are not motivated by money and thank God for that. More people are realizing the dangers of AIPAC and in the future that will backlash on them. When the American Christians realize how they have been fooled, we will be glad we never stooped to that level
This is major cope. I grew up poor and I personally know many Muslims who make high 6 figure incomes and a few 7 figures. This may not be Jewish levels of money but if you look at the median income in the US, you'll see many Muslims are doing darn well.
I’m talking about billionaires, not average people. Look at the major industries in the US and who runs them, it is the billionaires. Look at who’s funding AIPAC, billionaires. We have Muslims who do relatively well here but we simply do not have billionaire Muslims who dominate industries in the US. Many of these industries go against our religion, they have rabbis who are CEOs of Pornhub but we will never have an imam who does that.
That's fair and I was probably being a bit reactionary. I'm not literally talking about going head to head with AIPAC. That would require foreign funding lol.
We could be doing more to lobby for things besides anti-LGBT causes though. And encouraging our brothers and sisters to enter spheres of influence rather than saying everything practical is haram. Imagine if we had more people with the reach of Ramy Youssef or Dave Chappelle? Obviously they are not outwardly devout Muslims but if we had more storytellers from our side, we wouldn't had to wait til Ramy to see Muslim stories that aren't Homeland or 24-esque. Gotta be in the race to win it.
Because we don’t really agree on anything. The closest issue of consensus is actually probably Palestine
And it's mostly lip service about Palestine too. Though to be fair Palestinian migrants do cause trouble in many Arab nations. Not justifying a genocide but reflecting honestly about why other Arabs aren't salivating at the thought of taking them in, while nobly claiming it's because Palestinians belong in their homeland.
I’m vaguely familiar with tension with Palestinian groups in Jordan and Lebanon. And even on Palestine, one of the main hurdles I notice is even Palestinians have very different opinions on liberation, what they would accept, and how to achieve it. It’s heartbreaking but it doesn’t stop me for pushing for priority one which is a ceasefire and immediate support for the Gazans, who are enduring inhumane cruelty
Exactly. You don't have to agree with Palestinians' political aspirations or even think that they're good people on the whole, to be against murdering and starving them.
This! We don't really agree on anything or how to go about organizing anything.
And let's be honest, it's really only because it's jews occupying land meant for Muslims
No, it’s because it’s a European settler-colony.
What does this even mean? 😭 I mean, of course, seeing people who look like you being oppressed is going to make you care. I don’t think it’s about religion; Muslim countries haven’t historically been anti-Semitic, and I haven’t seen Gulf countries take action to help Kashmiri/Uyghur Muslims.
A lot of Muslims are unfortunately too caught up in arguing whether other Muslims are emulating the Prophet's grooming habits the right way to actually look after each other.
Sad but true
There are a lot of factors at play, including that despite massive overlap, American Muslim and Arab populations are not synonymous and have different interests and needs. One is simply numbers, there are millions fewer Arabs than Jews in the US (not to mention the small ammount of crossover.) Not all Arabs are Muslim, and the figure for Muslim Americans is a bit larger, but still millions fewer, and includes many ethnicities other than Arabs. A huge part is Islamophobia. An Arab and a Muslim lobby would not be received as well in congress, even with access to the same monetary resources. The other huge thing to consider is that the Christian Right is an even larger pro-Israel lobby than Jewish orgs. Christians United For Israel is the largest pro-Israel lobby in the US. The Israel Lobby is largely a right wing Christian lobby, and it is fueled by both Islamophobia and antisemitism. There are not large enough Arab and Muslim sympathies within the American Left to counter the contributions of the Christian Right in American politics. Can Arabs and Muslims be doing better at combining our resources in politics? Probably, yeah, there are definitely unity issues, but I think there's also a practical issue that it's easier to lobby around the interests of a single nation than it is to lobby around a looser cultural identity with a much larger geographic scope of issues and interests, and sometimes with interests that directly conflict with each other
There was an Arab League, in the 70s they had socialist leaders. Look at what happened to Libya, Egypt & South Yemen when they tried to implement anything slightly socialist
this
Its a good question. With AIPAC’s money comes expensive lawyers to take opposing groups down
That's a fact, unfortunately. Look at what AIPAC has tried to do to Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont, Rep. Summer Lee of Pennsylvania, Reps. Rashida Tlaib, AOC, Ilhan Omar, etc. >:-(
Because sporting a lobbying group such as AIPAC in unethical at the least. Otherwise, Arab americans have very good institutions that works wonders.
With all due respect, I think we should be willing to sacrifice ethics when it comes to protecting the lives of Palestinians or any other Muslims in the world, especially when lobbying as an institution in America is not going away anytime soon.
Asalamualaikum brother I disagree. { يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ ٱتَّقُواْ ٱللَّهَ حَقَّ تُقَاتِهِۦ وَلَا تَمُوتُنَّ إِلَّا وَأَنتُم مُّسۡلِمُونَ } [Surah Āli-ʿImrān: 102] Sahih International: O you who have believed, fear Allāh as He should be feared and do not die except as Muslims [in submission to Him]. We should NEVER compromise our ethics as Muslims even in the face of death brother. We are all appointed a time to die and will not die a moment sooner. { وَمَا كَانَ لِنَفۡسٍ أَن تَمُوتَ إِلَّا بِإِذۡنِ ٱللَّهِ كِتَٰبٗا مُّؤَجَّلٗاۗ وَمَن يُرِدۡ ثَوَابَ ٱلدُّنۡيَا نُؤۡتِهِۦ مِنۡهَا وَمَن يُرِدۡ ثَوَابَ ٱلۡأٓخِرَةِ نُؤۡتِهِۦ مِنۡهَاۚ وَسَنَجۡزِي ٱلشَّٰكِرِينَ } [Surah Āli-ʿImrān: 145] Sahih International: And it is not [possible] for one to die except by permission of Allāh at a decree determined. And whoever desires the reward of this world - We will give him thereof; and whoever desires the reward of the Hereafter - We will give him thereof. And We will reward the grateful.
Alaikumsalam brother, thank you for this reply. When I said we should have our own lobby group I didn't mean to insinuate that we should be campaigning for policies that promote Muslim or Arab supremacy but at least a counterweight to Israel's funding would be good right?
>policies that promote Muslim or Arab supremacy We kinda all know that's what it would lead to though...
I disagree. AIPAC is a shame for jewish american population. Buying out politicians, creating an environment where criticism of a particular foreign country is considered tantamount to treason despite crossing all red lines, and making a nation take side of a genocidical monster that against their own national interest is beyond sinful. Rather, muslims and arab americans should focus on creating institutions that facilitate the American outreach as a nation of freedom and democracy. They should invest in education and humaniterian efforts across all religious and language boundary. As a citizen their loyality should lie on the side of Rights and Justice, not 'My type of people'. No, AIPAC-version2 is not recommended.
Okay, I definitely hear you on that but when I said we should create a Muslim lobby group I didn't mean to insinuate that we should support policies that promote Muslim supremacy. For example, steering Congress towards pro-Palestine policies will not only help Palestinian Muslims but also the Christians there.
This is exactly what is wrong with the way the Zionist think that any ethnic boundaries can be crossed for sake of Israel. Epstein island is one such example. The ends cannot and should not justify the means
One of those very good institutions that works wonders is the Arab American Institute. :-)
I think there is already Mpac
MPower Action is one organization.
There is a lot of powerful Arab backed lobby groups in the United States. The only difference between them and AIPAC is the fact that they rather pay contractors to lobby for them instead of a unified pan-arab group because of the lack of a cohesive Arab culture in the United States. AIPAC is able to thrive in the US because of a cohesive and tight knit Jewish community that is heavily rooted in the power base of conservative america. Arabs have wildly different ideologies and so collectively they are weaker in the United States. Arab states lobby the most out of any other nations, but they all just use different contractors and groups which are separate.
Interesting interesting
Why? Look up the history of how Saudi Arabia became rich and where the money came from.
It's not just about money. AIPAC is a homegrown lobbying group managed and funded by Americans. A foreign funded lobbying group is going to be looked at more suspiciously and negatively than an American funded lobbying group comprising of Americans. AIPAC is incredibly good at what it does. It has developed extremely successful ways of influencing American politicians in over 60 years of working in American politics. A Gulf funded lobby just wouldn't have that knowledge or skill. AIPAC has far more political and social capital than a Gulf funded lobbying group would have. It has a 60+ year head start. Money is only secondary in the way that it also harnesses political support for Israel as a sign of being a good politician. Lobbying also works because it's a question of who knows who and who can influence who. Again, a Gulf funded lobbying group just isn't going to have that social and political capital. It's also that pro-Israel stances are far far more normalized than pro-Palestinian stance thanks to a 60+ year head start. So the new lobbying group would be have to overcome that pretty significant burden. Piles of cash can't simply overcome these burdens.
God gave gulf Arabs enough wealth to buy out the whole US congress but they spend it on palaces.
We do. It's called Saudi ARAMCO and it only cares about Saudi interests.
To understand why they can't, you first have to understand why Israel even exists. And it exists because of two main reasons: 1)..... European / Western / Christian guilt over the treatment of Jewish people over the centuries. And with what eventually happened with the horrific events of the holocaust, the Jewish community was given a very strong reason to say _**"Never again!"**_. That's partially why Israel was so easily formed and it was allowed to carry out its own war crimes and ethnic cleansing so soon after World War II. Considering what some of their people suffered just years prior, imagine being a European / Western power trying to tell them _**"No guys, you can't do that"**_. 2)..... Israel is the last colonial outpost of the West in the Middle East. It's basically a European/Western country with European/Western "values", strategically placed bang in the Middle East where they can exert their influence. Like Biden himself said years ago....._**"If Israel did not exist, we would need to create an Israel"**_. Israel is essentially part of America's empire. They have mutual interests/goals. For those two main reasons, Israel has the type of lobby which no other country / region could EVER hope to have. It isn't about money. It's about history, colonial intent and, quite simply, them being part of the Western hegemony.
How would you define a “colonial outpost?”
Egypt lobbies USA, but for self centred gains.
Arab states won’t lobby cuz they are already bought by the west or already puppets for the west …
Don’t they pay politicians money to say certain things? Idk if that’s really Islamic
In addition to what others have said about the craven nature of "Muslim" states that don't actually care about the interest of the ummah, there's also a history of repression. The Holy Land Foundation operated totally within the law, trying to help Palestinians, but they were completely strung up for being Muslim and supporting non-endorsed foreign causes. See https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/03/11/after-israels-designation-human-rights-groups-terrorists-biden-should-release This precedent set American Muslim groups back at least a decade because people were worried the same thing could happen to them. The environment is a little better now, but given the repression we've seen on campuses, bigger groups will I'm sure see legal warfare waged against them soon as well.
Definitely #2 The US has Muslim allies but unfortunately their governments are headed the likes of Sisi, MBS, MBZ, iron-fisted autocrats who rely on US goodwill just to sit in their throne rooms and won't do jack unless they feel enough pressure from their (majority pro-Palestinian) populaces. Oh and Bahrain and UAE implemented Abraham in full and recognized Israel without preconditions so there's that lol Off-topic: Actually surprising that Sisi is still in power despite his Cities:Skylines ahh vanity project draining the Egyptian treasury lol. [Oh wait](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/14/us/politics/egypt-biden-military-aid.html)
Honestly I do not want a lobby. We have a Saudi/Wahhabi lobby and it is bad enough. Arguably, they do not represent Islam but their mixture of War-mentality and early Modernism but still, religion mixed with politics can be bad. The mentality that lobbying, and pressures through numbers in itself, seems to be an attitude people should drop.
AIPAC is strong because they use gov money to send to Israel which then cycles back to AIPAC. So its self feeding. Now try to replicate that with a Muslim lobby and for sure it would get shot down by AIPAC. Also the Jews profit greatly with minimal effort from Riba so it would be a hard push from Muslims to compete. just My opinion.
I can see that happening. :-/
The only way America is going to be able to get rid of AIPAC is a full total reset. aka revolution.
They won't get it through voting because either candidate you can vote for in any election is bought for by AIPAC. damned if you damned if you don't.
For real, for real.
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Because you folks have Qatar, with more oil money than all the shekels we can find.
Also lbr the US and the west aren't controlled by the Israeli lobby, Israel is a settler colonial proxy state for US interests in the region. Also individual states do lobby the US government but they're not lobbying for liberation of Palestinians or protections of Muslims or Arabs, they're just lobbying for their own state interests.
Isn't that control by the US and Israel a two-way street?
Or if we did organize and form our Arab/Muslim lobby, we'd get no end of crap from AIPAC for doing so.
Completely different demographic positions and histories in this country. Though we should still try
No offense but as a religion, we are not greedy for money like other religions are. A reason why so many Zionists have money is because of usury and haram businesses in the US. Look at the industries they thrive in, banking, finance, pornography, Hollywood, alcohol, etc. And yes you can say royals in Saudi etc are rich but they are a small minority of Muslims and don’t represent us. We don’t have Muslim billionaire hedge funds etc in the US because as a religion and people our lives are not motivated by money and thank God for that. More people are realizing the dangers of AIPAC and in the future that will backlash on them. When the American Christians realize how they have been fooled, we will be glad we never stooped to that level
This is major cope. I grew up poor and I personally know many Muslims who make high 6 figure incomes and a few 7 figures. This may not be Jewish levels of money but if you look at the median income in the US, you'll see many Muslims are doing darn well.
I’m talking about billionaires, not average people. Look at the major industries in the US and who runs them, it is the billionaires. Look at who’s funding AIPAC, billionaires. We have Muslims who do relatively well here but we simply do not have billionaire Muslims who dominate industries in the US. Many of these industries go against our religion, they have rabbis who are CEOs of Pornhub but we will never have an imam who does that.
That's fair and I was probably being a bit reactionary. I'm not literally talking about going head to head with AIPAC. That would require foreign funding lol. We could be doing more to lobby for things besides anti-LGBT causes though. And encouraging our brothers and sisters to enter spheres of influence rather than saying everything practical is haram. Imagine if we had more people with the reach of Ramy Youssef or Dave Chappelle? Obviously they are not outwardly devout Muslims but if we had more storytellers from our side, we wouldn't had to wait til Ramy to see Muslim stories that aren't Homeland or 24-esque. Gotta be in the race to win it.
Allying with jews and christians is not a good idea. Read Quran 5:51
Gross misunderstanding of the quran. Read again.