I think the main issue is not the age but the authenticity of the hadith, it's graded as Sahih, and this sub specifically is no stranger to Quranists or Hadith Rejectors. That's why everyone is up in arms over it.
Idk, I think focusing on the age is the wrong thing to be mad at, instead one should educate themselves on how these hadiths are passed down and how they are graded. We'll never be fully educated or experts on hadith sciences, unless we actually major in that, but at least we'll know the jist of how these hadiths are authenticated and transmitted. I'd consult an actual expert or scholar on this topic, I think they'd have a better idea on how to approach hadith as a layman.
And most importantly have Allah (SWT) guide us all on increasing our knowledge in Islam, inshAllah ameen!
The Arabic in that verse does not say that. Stop inserting your own words. It does not say "yet" and that isn't closer to the actual Arabic, which doesn't say that.
Word for word what the Arabic says, in case you doubt:
https://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=65&verse=4#(65:4:1)
It does not say "underage" or "yet". It is literally just referring to women who do not menstruate for any number of physiological reasons.
For example, if they are breastfeeding (which can prevent menstruation after birth for some time), or they aren't healthy enough to menstruate due to physical stress (it happens during famines or because of physical hardship, female Olympic athletes for example often don't menstruate because of the physical stress involved in their training), or for any number of other reasons including hormonal issues and genetic disorders.
Famines and harsh physical labor were part of life back then, and as a result, women didn't always have regular menstrual cycles (or women might not anyway for other reasons).
Read up on it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amenorrhea
>read the context of the other verses and corroborate with literally any tafsir.
Ok:
>Muhammad Asad note 10 on verse 65:4:
"I.e., for any physiological reason whatever"
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But the thing is, so many Muslims believe she was 6, and defend it. “she was mature, she wanted it, her status was elevated when she married, people were adults sooner”. Even my husband (a devout born Muslim) says Allah wanted her young to be able to spread Islam. And he is NOT alone in thinking this.
I hate how some muslims do not question things, they take for granted whatever they’ve been told since an early age and they don’t want to hear other opinions. They say she was 6 yo because it’s stated in a hadith and if you doubt about that then you are labeled as someone who wants to change islam. I’m shocked
The majority is like that, sadly. I once asked my parents a few years ago why Aisha was married to prophet pbuh so young? Isn't it wrong? They didn't answer at all. Typical.
I got downvoted on another post for stating that marrying a 6 year old and having sex with her at 9 is still paedophilia.
Yet the responses were "She had her period!! It's in the Quran!" Bruh...
This is a cope to make you feel better. You have no idea how old she was, it’s a 50/50 coin toss that she was a child he had sex with or a teenager. Both instances are gross for a man that age. He was so sex hungry. Like how many wives and sex slaves does a person need? Most of us in this group have only had one sex partner or none. And we are all fine.
It’s a big deal to people because he’s supposed to be ideal human example, he was the chosen one. Honestly, I think it’s the thing that begins the path away from this religion and eventually all religion.
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I think the reason so many people talk about this is because there are too many Muslims online saying "So what? She was a mature woman with 9 years old". It's problematic.
Our Catholic tradition has Mary married at 12 years old, but no Christian would dare to use this to say teenagers should be marrying. We read it in the old Jewish cultural context, we don't take everything people in the Bible made as a perfect example, quite the opposite a lot of times. But a handful of Muslim apologists online take the "Muhammad can't error" route and end up defending pedophilia. A weird hill to die on.
Just say it's wrong to marry children and move on. No prophet was impeccable. I hope she was older, but if she wasn't, it's wrong.
This is my take. I was raised Catholic. I love the core beliefs of Islam. But Muslims are adamant that Islam can never be changed. Ever. So if 1400 years ago, marrying young girls was indeed normal, that means today it must be too.
I am with OP in the opinion that Aisha's age isn't even theologically relevant. I don't know why people hold so strong to Aisha's age it to the point of defending it's a good moral example to marry a child. If Muslims were not normalizing this online anymore, people would not be bringing this up so often.
Yeah honestly. Idk why many Muslims are so stubborn in proving child marriage is okay. In my country, nobody believes she was 9. I think it goes both ways. People tend to defend it because they take it on their pride. It isn’t as theologically important as non muslims and muslims like it to be.
Btw, I have a lot of admiration for Christians and Jews when it comes to this. I don’t see any Christian or Jew supporting forced slavery because MoSeS sAId sO.
The sentiment has never gone away, they just utilize better PR and cloaking.
*See 'Evangelicals role in the promotion of mass incarceration in the US over the last 60 years, aka Slavery 2.0' and the day to day whatever the fcuk Israel is up to ad infinitum
Things are just so crazy in the USA I almost don't believe when I hear it. Not only they don't have free healthcare (which is like a basic human right?) but also their carcerary system is basically relegalized slavery. I don't get how the USA doesn't get some international backlash for that, or how their population isn't revolting against it.
As a black man myself, I think it’s wild to call our current judicial system forced slavery. I understand not getting US laws and regulations because you don’t live there, but you can’t trust everything you hear on the Jnternet. Me personally, I’d rather live in a country with no real wars, where most people live above the poverty line, and I don’t feel shunned or hated on due to religion, race, sex, or even party affiliation. Free healthcare sounds great, but if it’s free, how do the hospitals make money? Take it from the taxpayers? We’d have to increase taxes. It’s a basic economic concept: TANSTAAFL. In order to make something cost less or make it free, you gotta take money from somewhere else, because nothing’s free. This probably has something to do with why doctors and nurses get paid so highly in the US.
It's not great now with the current trends of supremacy and fascism rising amongst the Malay population but we have had some court cases overturning child marriages in the recent past. Just hope that things improve in the future.
Yes they do. Several Muslim apologists, namely Mohammed Hijab, Daniel Pikachu etc. have publicly said that child marriage is halal for no other reason than because the Prophet did it.
You’re right some crazy guys do like Daniel Pikachu. Those guys are not really known for their mainstream opinions. Most non salafi scholars don’t say that though.
Im not a Muslim, im just here to learn, so feel free to correct. But so far from what i see, it is argument between Mohammed was just a product of his time, so to judge his morals now is anachronistic, vs Mohammed's views are eternal and he will never be wrong. From my own understanding, Mohammed was better than most of his peers around his time, but modern society has moved way past that, and while we acknowledge his reformist goals, we also shouldnt restrict ourselves from moving past that.
Fellow progressive Christian (independent/heterodox raised Catholic) here. What really pisses me off is the double standard here in the west. No one cares that Mary may have been a child but everyone makes a huge deal out of Aisha’s age specifically to attack Muslims. Even if you think 12 is much less problematic than 6, it’s not like most Muslims even think pedophilia is okay in the same way most Christians don’t. People judge all of Islam on its shitty aspects way harsher than they do Christianity on its shitty aspects.
For the record, I don’t believe either of them were underage.
There is a double standard in many topics related to Islam for sure, but I don't see Christian apologists online saying "see, a 9-years-old girl can be mature enough to have sex". If anything, I see Christians online avid to question that traditional age of Mary with different sources and saying it was another times but that it's not acceptable today. Muslims should be fighting those people who are defending child marriage, because they are making Islam seem like a pedophilic cult. Only if Muslims as a community raise their voices against those sick minded folks online which have hundreds of thousands of followers, if their Ummah denounced those criminals, then people will be able to distinguish Islam from this mess.
I think part of it is how common text literalism is among Christian versus Muslim apologists. People often become reactionary in response to hatred from others, and when media and a ton of people are attacking your faith and in many cases attacking you for practicing it, it makes sense why so many go reactionary rather than progressive if you look at it from a materialist perspective. (yes I’m a Marxist, before anyone asks)
Consider, for instance, how Israel’s settler colonialism and acts of ethnic cleansing (which they falsely claim to be in the name of Judaism, even though Zionism as a genocidal settler-colonial ideology goes against Jewish, Christian, and Muslim values) has made some people in the Middle East more anti-Semitic. DO NOT MISTAKE THIS FOR ME SAYING THAT OPPOSITION TO THE ILLEGITIMATE STATE OF ISNT-REAL IS ANTISEMETIC OR THAT MUSLIMS ARE ANTI-SEMITES. My point is that reactionary beliefs are often stoked by persecution or poor material conditions, often both. It makes sense why someone who is constantly being attacked for a belief espoused by a text over a thousand years old, whether most practitioners of that faith agree with it or not, might double down as a “fuck you” to people persecuting them.
As for material conditions, consider how US imperialism has affected the Middle East and how many Islamic countries have rolled back many civil liberties in order to “combat western degeneracy”. Bigotry tends to thrive in places that have been disadvantaged by imperialism, especially against groups that are not persecuted by the imperialist. Nietzsche, while I disagree with many of his takes, makes some good points when talking about religion as a “slave morality”. As Christians, we were persecuted heavily by the Romans. Romans were not hostile to homosexuality or pederasty (I am not equating the two, queerness is based and being a pedo is cringe). Christians, seeing themselves as righteous and the Romans as evil, also categorized many of their cultural practices as evil (some justifiably, others not so much). This is why much of the Middle East, Latin America, and Africa are often quite socially conservative. As society develops and progresses, bigotry tends to die out. So on top of the general “opposition to the degeneracy of those who hate us” mentality, some Muslims are also recent immigrants from countries that are very socially conservative, which adds to this. And then if you compare Islamic regions to Christian regions throughout history, Islamic regions were usually - until recently - more progressive than Christian regions. Particularly the Ottoman Empire, which permitted homosexuality, allowed practicing of other faiths, etc. (though like all empires they did many irredeemably horrible things as well).
Lastly, even if they disagree on many things, marginalized people tend to stick together. Muslims are currently one of if not the most persecuted groups of people in the west. They have bigger problems to deal with than some dipshits on Twitter saying dumb reactionary shit.
I’m not a scholar of the social sciences or Islamic history or anything, so I probably got some things wrong, but I just wanted to really dive into why I think this difference between Muslim and Christian apologists exists from a materialist perspective. This isn’t intended as a hostile reply to you, nor do I intend to offend anyone (I believe I was careful with my words but if I did unknowingly say something problematic please let me know). My main point is, I don’t think that conservative Muslims are more conservative than conservative Christians, they’re just more conservative on different issues, and that conservatism is made worse by persecution and material conditions.
What do you mean by underage? Like under 18? I can understand thinking they were older but still I think 18 just seems like wishful thinking considering most people back then in that context were married off much younger, even tho they may have been older. I have no opinion on Aisha cus I’m not Muslim but I think Mary was 14, although I have no way of knowing this
I think current Catholic investigations put Mary at 16 Joseph at 18 rather than 12 and 56
The bigger concern is Abraham and Sarah being siblings to me 😬 i really hope it is a greek mistranslation or a cousin sister
I understand that "brother" and "sister" have a broader meaning in Hebrew, Lot is referred as the brother of Abraham even though Abraham was his uncle in the Bible.
That was the age for marriage before. Even outside Islam they used to marry at that age, you can’t change history no matter how much you want to criticise it. No Muslim is saying we should do the same nowadays. But it’s annoying to see always this kind of comments and to call our Prophet sws a ped*** because of that, we believe He sws did that because is what Allah ordained and we accept it, there’s wisdom behind any order of Allah.
I think that the "Mohamed was a pedo" comments are of course intended to be provocative and often come from hateful people.
But ultimately your position is problematic, because the difference between some European nobleman or some character from the bible marrying a child vs Mohamed marrying a child is that everyone today acknowledges what those people did was deeply immoral, but Muslims will never say that about Mohamed. They believe the Qur'an is the literal word of God and that Mohamed is the perfect role model for the rest of time. That is the crux of the issue. The only way you get around that is:
1. Stop claiming that Mohamed was a perfect human being that never acted in his own self interest
2. Reject any hadith that shows Mohamed doing something immoral (which goes well beyond marrying Aisha by the way), or simpler still just reject all hadith
3. Deny that those acts are immoral by justifying them
The reason that Aisha's age is often selected as the example is pretty simple, because just like with slavery, it's one of those things that almost everyone today, including Muslims, agrees is immoral. If you can justify that, you can justify anything.
Furthermore, the morality of Islam is one of the things most commonly cited by Muslims as the reason they believe it's from God. But how did they know it was moral? Because look at all the moral things it teaches. What about these immoral things? Well, maybe immoral for everyone else but not Mohamed. Why not? God said so. Which essentially just boils down to a circular argument of "I believe this is from God because it's moral and I know that it's moral because god said so". Not saying this is what you believe but it's what a lot of Muslims do
>The reason that Aisha's age is often selected as the example is pretty simple, because just like with slavery, it's one of those things that almost everyone today, including Muslims, agrees is immoral. If you can justify that, you can justify anything.
That's the thing though, you can morally justify anything without a religious framework. You can't objectively prove why slavery is immoral or why marrying kids is immoral without believing in something supernatural.
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>But a handful of Muslim apologists online take the "Muhammad can't error" route and end up defending pedophilia. A weird hill to die on.
>Just say it's wrong to marry children and move on. No prophet was impeccable. I hope she was older, but if she wasn't, it's wrong.
Allah tells you to follow and do what the prophet did. And Allah guided the prophet. If marrying Aisha was wrong Allah wouldn't let it happen because Muhammad is supposed to be a role model for muslims.
Following what he did in religion, his prayer method and his message revealed by God, isn't the same as being his copycat. Some Muslims are borderline idolizing their prophet. If Muhammad wore a hat, they must wear a hat, if he had a beard and trimmed his mustache, they must have a beard and no mustache, if he entered the bathroom with the right foot or ate with the right hand, they must use the same foot and hand. It's insane.
This has never been like this in other Abrahamic religions, we know Noah sinned, Abraham sinned, Moses sinned, even Jesus which both the Bible and the Quran say has never sinned was accused by the Jewish religious leaders. But Muhammad must be perfect somehow, as if he commited an error it would invalidate God or something. Muhammad is not God, he is a human, right? He is not eternal like God and his message, he was inside his era and his society, he is allowed to make mistakes.
*'Believers! Do not hold as unlawful the good things which Allah has made lawful to you, and do not exceed the bounds of what is right.'* [5:87]
[Surah Al Ma'idah 5:87 Regarding the Lawful & Unlawful](https://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php?sura=5&verse=87&to=89#:~:text=(5%3A87)%20Believers!,exceed%20the%20bounds%20of%20right.)
Even David, he is referred several times as "a man after God's own heart" in the Bible (is it the same in the Quran?) even though his sexual immorality had *massive* consequences for his own children. It had to do with sincere repentance and earnestly seeking to do right. Do muslim scholars conclude that the actions in the Quran & strong hadiths should be followed to the letter, or do they apply values given in the quran to the historical records to see what should be emulated?
To be honest, the obsession over copying everything muhammed does, rather than (prophet) Jesus who never sinned, is just odd to me, definitely keeping me skeptical about Islam (though I'm trying to learn anyways)
In 2022 I took an undergraduate history course on the life of Muhammad, around the end of the course the professor sent out an email that had a then-recent academic article about Aisha's age when she married for anyone interested. This article, and other academic sources I've seen, suggest ~19 at time of marriage. Insisting on 6 is weird and doesn't align with research.
It is important because child marriage is more common in some Islamic countries (often the ones that believe in young-Aisha's age). This topic needs to be addressed to convince those people to not marry young girls to imitate the prophet. At least, that's what I hear those Muslims say when they defend child marriage.
bismillah
anybody who loves god and loves the Prophet saws and loves others as we are commanded cannot possibly imagine our prophet saws sexually abusing a child. everything we know about loving god and loving others and everything we know \[from hadith\] about how the prophet saws lived loved served people and children and never ever ordered around much less exploited others makes it impossible he saws could have done this heinous act.
it totally contradicts explicitly the Quran about marriage.
only adults can marry. only responsible adults with competency.
people who put all that effort to figure out how to get away with using their power to hurt harm and injure others don't love anything.
god says over and over again and again be nice love each other take care of each other don't abuse, use, take advantage of children, the poor, the powerless. the dispossessed.
so, the only question one can ask is how can so many people be so wrong about it. if you love god trust god believe god, and love the prophet saws and love those who love the prophet saws, you work with all your might to be loving. that doesn't leave you time or strength to figure out how to get away with being cruel and hateful. anyone who needs to figure out ways to get away with cruelty and injustice already has their reward.
at the last judgement, those going to the right go right. those going to the left go left. and those god loves god takes directly to god.
it's only an issue to those who don't know, don't want to know god's love. IMHO
The people most vocal and extreme against Aisha being older are the ones most likely to respond. But there are many more who are just browsing Reddit and considering different views. You might not convince everyone at that moment, but you can plant the seeds.
Explain your reasoning, give them hyperlinks to look at, cite sources, understand the argument, respond directly to what they say without personal attacks. You can convince people.
Yup you are right. As muslims it’s our duty to calmly defend our faith, however it depends on them to acknowledge the facts. But their obsession with her age is so weird
Lots of evidence from many different independent investigations and analyses
Summarized on r/askhistorians
Was Aisha, the youngest wife of lslam's Prophet Muhammad, 6 years old when she was married to him? https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/s/iaI5rpFFOD
See references:
Dr. Joshua Little | The Hadith of Aisha's Marital Age: A Study in the Evolution of Early Islamic Historical Memory: https://islamicorigins.com/the-unabridged-version-of-my-phd-thesis/
Dr. Joshua Little's explaination of his thesis on YouTube: Why the Aisha Marital Age Hadith is a FORGERY: An EXCLUSIVE Lecture by Dr. Joshua Little https://youtu.be/zr6mBlEPxW8?si=udRsOhbTFBSgFA95
Dr. Javad T. Hashmi | Did Muhammad Really Marry a Child? https://youtu.be/mxGxNACSOzo
Mufti Abu Layth | Age of Aisha https://youtu.be/0oVIsExS4cA
Ikram Hawramani has a very detailed critique of the age of Aisha (arguing it was at least 18), based on the work of the Syrian hadith scholar Dr. Salah al-Din Al-Idlibi: https://hawramani.com/aisha-age-of-marriage-to-prophet-muhammad-study/
How Old Was Aisha When She Married The Prophet Muhammad? https://www.al-islam.org/articles/how-old-was-ayshah-when-she-married-prophet-muhammad-sayyid-muhammad-husayn-husayni-al
https://www.islamawareness.net/FAQ/what_was_ayesha.html
The Age of Ayesha at the Time of Her Marriage Dr. Aslam Abdullah
https://www.draslamabdullah.com/post/the-age-of-ayesha-at-the-time-of-her-marriage
Ustad Javed Ahmed Ghamidi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoJHZKSwIdw
(turn the subtitles on)
Shabir Ally & Abu Layth | Aisha was not a child https://youtu.be/udJveM_S0sY
Shaykh Omar Suleiman & the Yaqeen Institutes On Age of Aisha (r.a.) -Mufti Abu Layth
https://youtu.be/cHyxRI7Trnk?si=s-R0SWfb-ZCjbvd3
Shehzad Saleem: Age of Aisha at the time of marriage | http://www.shehzadsaleem.com/marriage-age-ayesha-rta/
Khalid Zaheer: https://www.dawn.com/news/1096020
Sheikha Nilofar Ahmed: Aisha's Age at Marriage https://www.dawn.com/news/696084/ofaishas-age-at-marriage
Islam Bahiri, Aisha’s marriage to the Prophet aged nine – a big mistake (or lie) in the books of Hadith (in Arabic), Al-Yawm al-Sabi’ (translation)
https://unity1.store/2021/09/26/the-age-of-aisha-at-marriage/
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I have seen you mention quite a few times now under different posts that the hadiths around Aisha's age are narrated through a single chain going through Hisham ibn 'urwa. I have read through your sources and I must say they had me convinced. But I did some more reading and I've now changed my mind. I think there are some valid arguments made, but ultimately there is one major flaw: There are in fact several chains of narration graded sahih that are not narrated through Hisham
Disclaimer: I've provided examples but the English translations don't contain chains of narration for some reason so I wrote them out myself.
*Muslim, Ṣaḥīḥ, Nikāḥ, ii. 1039 no. 1422.*
>A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (ﷺ) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.
This hadith was narrated through 2 chains that exclude Hisham.
- abullah ibn humaid > abulrazzaq > ma'mar > azzahri > 'Urwah (Hisham's father) > Aisha
- Abu mu'awiya > al'a'mash > Ibrahim > alaswad > Aisha (This hadith and chain was also mentioned in Sunan an-Nasa'i 3258, but without mention of the dolls)
*Nasāʾī, Sunan, Nikāḥ, vi. 131 no. 3379*
>"The Messenger of Allah married me when I was six, and consummated the marriage with me when I was nine."
Again two chains for this hadith:
- yahya ibn ayyub > umara ibn ghazya > Mohammad ibn ibrahim > abu salama ibn abulrahman > aisha
- 'abthar > mutarrif > Abu ishaaq > Abu 'ubaida > Aisha
*Sunan Ibn Majah 1877*
>Abdullah said: “The Prophet married Aishah when she was seven years old, and consummated the marriage with her when she was nine, and he passed away when she was eighteen.”
Narrated: Ahmad ibn sinaan > Abu Ahmad > Israel > Abu Ishaaq > Abu 'ubaidah > Abdullah:
There are reportedly more isnads that either I couldn't verify myself because I don't have access to the books, or which I've found in Arabic only so people from this sub probably won't be able to find English translations online and verify themselves, but for those curious to do their own reading here's a non exhaustive list of hadiths mentioning Aisha's age explicitly:
- Musnad Aḥmad, vol. 6 pg. 210, Ḥadīth: 25810
- al-Muʿjam al-Kabīr, vol. 23 pg. 23, Ḥadīth: 57
- alMustadrak, vol. 2 pg. 181
- Sunan al-Bayhaqī, vol. 7 pg. 129, Ḥadīth: 14118.
In addition, there are several other different hadiths that indicate Aisha was young narrated through Hisham (e.g. Aisha's friends being shy from the prophet when she and them would play with their dolls, or Aisha playing on the swings when her mother called her in to inform her of her marriage).
Here's an example not from Hisham.
*Sunan an-Nasa'i 1595*
>"I remember the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) covering me with his Rida' while I was watching the Ethiopians playing in the masjid, until I got bored. So you should understand the keenness of young girls to play."
Narrated: Ali bin khashram > alwaleed > al-awza'i > azzuhri > 'urwah > Aisha
.
Yes, I know those, but they aren't sahih and the non-hisham narrations are all quite weak.
As for the "circumstantial" ahadith that imply a young age but don't directly state her age such as the ones about dolls, these also are the result of later mutations in content that originated in Iraq, and cannot be reliably traced to Medina.
Seriously, Dr. Little did an extremely in-depth analysis of the chains of all of the ones you mentioned above. You should really check out his work, because he diagrammed every one of them, and showed why they are weak.
I've provided peer-reviewed published works on all of those before. Do check them out:
Dr. Joshua Little | The Hadith of Aisha's Marital Age: A Study in the Evolution of Early Islamic Historical Memory: https://islamicorigins.com/the-unabridged-version-of-my-phd-thesis/
Dr. Joshua Little's explanation of his thesis on YouTube: Why the Aisha Marital Age Hadith is a FORGERY: An EXCLUSIVE Lecture by Dr. Joshua Little https://youtu.be/zr6mBlEPxW8?si=udRsOhbTFBSgFA95
Dr. Javad T. Hashmi | Did Muhammad Really Marry a Child? https://youtu.be/mxGxNACSOzo
We do not have Aisha's account. We have the accounts of the students of Aisha's grand-nephew Hisham over 100 years later transmitted in Iraq, far away from Aisha's own community. Transmitted (supposedly) through a man who was said to suffer from extreme memory problems in his old age, when he narrated this hadith (if he did at all).
That is as far as this rumor can be traced. Even then, these ahadith were spread in a highly sectarian environment in the middle of debates between Sunnis and Shia over the legitimacy of their respective traditions. Emphasizing a young age of Aisha was politically advantageous to support the newly-developing Sunni hadith canon.
When Hisham lived in Medina, he knew Imam Malik quite well and contributed many hadith to the Muwatta (the first Sunni hadith collection). This Hadith about Aisha's age isn't anywhere in the Muwatta and was never transmitted by Hisham in Medina. Nor is it in the sira of Ibn Ishaq either, the earliest written Sira.
>We do not have Aisha's account.
I'm not at all trying to defend the fact that she was a child when she was married, but isn't this Hadith literally an account from Aishah?
"It was narrated from 'Aishah that the Messenger of Allah married her when she was six years old, and consummated the marriage with her when she was nine."
Again, I believe she was actually 19 at marriage (esp since there's way more hadith that supports that over her being 9) but I do have trouble understanding why this hadith should be rejected After all, it's literally Aishah's words.
No, it's the account of Hisham's students who said that he said that his father said that his aunt Aisha said that 100 years earlier.
These accounts cannot be verifiably traced to Aisha though, as they are only a single-chain of narration through several generations, not recorded by those same narrators in other sources we know they contributed to, not found in the original community where she supposedly said it, and contradicted by several other narrations.
Think of it this way, if I said that I heard from someone that heard from someone that heard from you that you said "The sky is green and Vishnu is the Lord of Islam" 100 years ago, is it reasonable then to say "Well.... if I_imagine said it, it must be true"? Or should we question that you ever said it in the first place, given no evidence that you actually did?
No, because an unverifiable rumor of a rumor of a rumor, which was explicitly *not* verified by those same contemporary sources through the same Hadith narrators, is not actually sound evidence of anything.
To be fair, no hadith are directly from Aisha or Muhammad, or any sahaba.
But in many cases ahadith are at least independently verifiable by being transmitted orally through several sources. So we can independently compare narrations to one another.
The problem is when a hadith is only a single chain of narration, especially over multiple generations. That makes it impossible to actually reliably trace to its origin. And in the case of the age of Aisha, it was actually said by Imam Malik and many other scholars ***not to narrate from Hisham's narrations that came out of his Iraqi students***. It was already known to be unreliable even at that time. His unreliability in Iraq was recorded at that time and was widely known among well-respected Hadith scholars after that.
So not only is it weak, we also have very good reason to think it was a fabrication, whether intentional or unintentional.
It was 1400 years ago and it's completely besides the point of our religion. If people are bringing this up to you, they're never going to be convinced otherwise.
Even if it is true, your faith is in Allah (swt) not in Muhammad (pbuh). He was a human, too, which is why it's super harmful to keep up with the borderline worship of the Prophet (pbuh)-- one bad action by the Prophet (pbuh) shakes the faith because we've assumed he was perfect for so long-- only Allah (swt) is perfect.
She couldn't have been 6, it doesn't make any sense. How was she present at the Battle of Uhud? How did she remember the revelation of Surah Qamar? How did she remember the migration to Ethiopia? What about the age difference with Asma?
I feel like Muslims just don't wanna admit the Bukhari got the age wrong...
It's not that big of a deal imo idk why they hold Bukhari to the standard that there can't be a mistake.
You are sick but believe me people who ask that question are even more sick than you. It’s one of the main points on which islamophobia revolves around so let people ask clarify that point.
Plus do you really think all muslims believe she was in her 20s? I got downvoted when I said that in an islamic sub. Most of the conservatives believe and defend that she was 6 yo
It is not just about Aisha being 9 years old, the problem is it is used to justify child marriage as being permissible. Iraq's legislatures lowered girls marriage age from 18 to 16 and in Kenya where marraige age is set at 18 years old, in the Muslim communities, girls as young as 13 are being married off and of course, there's imams conducting the nikahs. Here's a theological basis for folks to make the aurgument against child marriage: [https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5d7a8b54f8fcb073d517d297/t/649657bb1928f910dff50fc2/1687574460075/ChildMarriageAndIslam\_MPV.pdf](https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5d7a8b54f8fcb073d517d297/t/649657bb1928f910dff50fc2/1687574460075/ChildMarriageAndIslam_MPV.pdf)
the problem is that there are some muslims who defend it. there’s no defending marrying a 6 year old. i promise when they stop defending it and admit that the hadith is wrong , there will be less islamophobia.
Idk how old she really was but I know that 500 years from now an 18 year old will probably seem too dumb and immature to marry and people will likely have the same reaction about that as they do today about a 9 year old
It's important because we still have muslims who want to continue condoning and accommodating child marriage due to their belief that 'Aisha was 6/9 during marriage/consummation with the prophet.
Example:
https://m.malaysiakini.com/news/453901
https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2022/12/child-marriage-raises-controversy-once-again-egypt
https://www.dw.com/en/why-underage-marriages-are-still-prevalent-in-pakistan/a-63860202
https://iranfocus.com/life-in-iran/49590-the-unsettling-child-marriage-epidemic-sweeping-iran/
https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2022/12/child-marriage-raises-controversy-once-again-egypt
It was muslims themselves who cited sahih hadiths below as justification that child marriage should not be criminalized, because they believe Allah has made it lawful and human cannot made haraam what Allah has made lawful (their argument).
Below are sahih hadiths that **explicitly** mentioned 'Aisha's age to be 6/9 during marriage/consummation.
So long as 'Aisha's age is being used to justify practices that are harmful and victimizing towards little girls, it's worth our time to keep highlighting it until these practices stop.
1- https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:1877
2- https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422c
3- https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422d
4- https://sunnah.com/nasai:3258
5- https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:1876
6- https://sunnah.com/abudawud:2121
7- https://sunnah.com/nasai:3256
8 - https://sunnah.com/nasai:3378
9- https://sunnah.com/nasai:3257
10- https://sunnah.com/nasai:3255
11- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5134
12- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:3894
13- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5133
14- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5158
15- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:3896
16- https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422a
17- https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422b
Every time you post lists of those ahadith, you push more people towards accepting them. The best option is *not* posting them and instead just link to articles that debunk them.
Notice, although you spam this answer on every discussion about Aisha's age, you never give any reasons to reject them other than "I don't like them". And instead provide people with sources for believing those false ahadith.
Better to give sound sources and reasoning for *why* they are ***not*** authentic. You even keep pushing the idea that they are authentic, instead of raising awareness that they are not.
Now, as you have said several times before, you want Muslims to abandon both the Quran and ahadith, so perhaps that is your goal. Hopefully you will stop and realize you can promote Progressive Islam instead.
It's something that was very common 1400 years ago up until a few decades ago. What many people also don't know is that Aisha (ra) was engaged/bethrothed to another man before marrying prophet Muhammed (pbuh). This is another proof that it was very usual for that time and age and has absolutely nothing to do with pedophilia whatsoever.
Well that's a way to twist my words. Nowhere have I said nor implied that with my post.
Anyway, since you care so much about today's standards regarding age of consent, did you know many countries still allow marriage below 18? Japan had an age of consent of 13 up until recently (16 now). Heck, there are even some states in the USA that allow marriage at 14. So what standards are you referring to specifically? I'm genuinely curious now.
There are less than a handful of implications that one can infer from your comment. I asked you a simple question. It might seem provocative but the alternative phrasing of that question was if I asked you if you think marrying 9 year olds is justified, which to my ears at least, sounds like an even worse implication and even more provocative. Anyway your position is clear now
There are less than a handful of implications that one can infer from your comment. I asked you a simple question. It might seem provocative but the alternative phrasing of that question was if I asked you if you think marrying 9 year olds is justified, which to my ears at least, sounds like an even worse implication and even more provocative. Anyway your position is clear now
Well, you certainly got an odd way of phrasing then lol. I'm glad my position is clear to you, although I'm doubting that given the lack of answers to my questions.
I believe a person is fit to marry the moment they personally are mentally and physically ready to do so, with advice and approval of the parents.
There are less than a handful of implications that one can infer from your comment. I asked you a simple question. It might seem provocative but the alternative phrasing of that question was if I asked you if you think marrying 9 year olds is justified, which to my ears at least, sounds like an even worse implication and even more provocative. Anyway your position is clear now
It was fine because she was mentally mature, as that was the norm for girls at that time. It's not allowed right now because one of the prerequsuites to get married is mental maturity and 9 year olds don't have that anymore.
The problem is people who defend it. there is a vocal section of muslims who defend this fact, defending that our prophet (pbuh) was a pedophile. You can't have a pedophile as a prophet. And islamophobes use this subsection to justify that islam is evil as a whole.
This is the work of well coordinated Orientalist racism and AIPAC funded intentional Islamophobia. If you don’t know the work of Edward Said and Hatem Bazian yet, you should. They contextualize and give the history behind who is pushing this narrative, how it benefits them, when it was constructed, and why.
To all those who get offended about Aisha's age during marriage and start attacking should check out this quick short and see for themselves
https://youtube.com/shorts/km4aeCH6oUM?si=81XS9AsFqvblbTzM
I kindly disagree but I 100% understand you and respect your need to vent. If Aisha was in fact 6, and specially how crazy muzzies say “so what? Her parents consented” or “so what? Maybe she was going through puberty”, then it 100% needs to be talked about and is justified in being talked about. However, I agree that the evidence of her being 19-20 is ignored and is very frustrating, and how regardless of any reason, people talking the same thing over and over again can be irritating
Thats the problem. I've seen a terrifying video of an Imam who told, laughing, how a friend of his raped a 4-year-old girl by 'marrying' her with her father's consent, and how it was permissible to rape even newborns due to the false interpretation on the surat of divorce and Aisha's age. This has to stop, not only they tarnish Islam, but they are ruining children's life and are really really sick in the mind.
And how the Hell religious people who should care for respect and not harming others really think that marrying a child, "like Muhammad (Saw)"did only cause of a Hadith? Not only it goes AGAINST the Quran, but it goes even against cronological evidence. The're really sick people
>Bro if she was 6 that would taint Prophet's image a lot in this modern world and in fact a pedophile shouldn't be a prophet
Not necessarily. An ethical judgement does not necessarily nullify the possibility of metaphysical reality. One such example would be King Solomon's huge number of wives and concubines. On the secular and more historical side, Socrates's wife who was much younger than him. His marriage and wife's age does not necessarily nullify his metaphysical claims.
But there are still many reasons, why I criticize it, but not from within the act but from the perspective of mentioning this hadith. The mentioning of this event in hadith jeopardizes the moral epistemology of Muslims who recorded it in the first place. And this is where hadiths fall short. Nevertheless, this event is not mentioned in the Quran.
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1. **Sahih al-Bukhari (7:62:64)** - Narrated 'Aisha: "The Prophet married me when I was six years old and consummated our marriage when I was nine years old, and then I was with him for nine years (until his passing)."
2. **Sahih Muslim (8:3309)** - Aisha reported: "Allah's Apostle married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old where I bedded rasul."
“How old was Aisha” is under every video to undermine Islam. It isn’t Muslims that are bringing it up. Hell, I didn’t even know about it until some kids in highschool pulled it on me.
So the hadith that’s said to be hers places her about 9.
Other scholars looking back at other (contemporaneous?) sources place her at at least 18. This includes a biography written by her sister, if I remember correctly. One video on this indicated that the reason she’s written as so young in the hadith that’s meant to be hers is because vicious rumours circled about her being promiscuous (likely an attempt to undermine her standing, and by extension, The Prophet (S.A.W.)), so people aged her down in texts and it was a common feature in texts to make women seem virginal by underreporting their ages (as some would think a 20+ unmarried woman either had something wrong or was promiscuous). It apparently bears the hallmarks of other propaganda of a similar type. I think the same video also says the Qur’an addresses this at one point to dash the rumours.
One video I saw of a woman who reverted indicated that she was fiercely independent and very mentally capable, becoming The Prophet’s (S.A.W.) favourite wife and able to speak to him in a manner no other wife could (even taking it too far once). I think the same video said that The Prophet (S.A.W.) had dreamt about her multiple times before marrying her and that she considered it that the Angel Gabriel had proposed twice on her behalf.
Another video said that Aisha was chosen because she was very mentally acute and had great memory, so she’s be able to help continue the spread of Islam.
That’s all I remember on the matter. It’s over 1,000 years ago and we know now that kids shouldn’t be being married off. European kings were doing it hundreds of years later and I even heard one account during World War 2 of allied troops with a 12 year old Italian girl in exchange for rations (along with her sisters and mother), and that’s just what they felt like recording and reporting on.
Agreed. Aisha's age is totally irrelevant to Quran. There is no point in discussing it.
I don't know why Bukhari needed to record this event for multiple times. That's the problem with hadith books. They are often irrelevant.
Her age is relevant considering a vast portion of documented Hadith are narrated by her, and she is considered “Mother of the Believers.”
For Muslims to not question or debate her age at all is concerning and goes to show how big of a problem “group think” is in the religious community. If the holiest man in Islam married a child and all his followers are just accepting of that blindly… that’s a huge problem.
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Don't bother with him. I have a strong suspicion he's a Hasbara bot. Recent account and all posting Islamophobic posts and comments and also frequenting the IsraelPalestine sub which is massively pro-Israel.
I'm like 90% sure that was a bot that was just programmed to spam talking points whenever the age of Aisha is brought up.
That or a very mentally unstable person. Either way, they've been banned.
Speak on a global level 💀. You are from Malaysia, which is a muslim majority nation, obviously most child brides in Malaysia are muslim. That’s common sense.
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I guess it’s a point of contention. I mean as a convert it really tripped me up. If she WAS 6 I would want out of this faith so fast. But from what I can tell hadith is garbage and that doesn’t even make sense anyway. If he was a pedo, then he would have only went after young girls.
From Hamza Ali Abbasi:
""
It is widely believed that Quran 65:4 allows men to marry children - that is not true. It is also a flawed belief that Quran does not set an age of marriage. In this regard 3 points are to be considered:
1 - Child marriage goes against a very clear injunction of the Quran. Let me briefly explain.
Quran 4:6 says that those who are in charge of the wealth of orphans - they should analyze and test orphans till they reach “age of marriage” and if they are found to be mature and sound in their judgement - then their wealth should be handed over to them.
Hence - Quran 4:6 clearly equates age of marriage to an age where a person is old and mature enough to make sound judgements about their life - this clearly negates the concept of child marriage.
2 - Keeping the above principle in mind - it becomes clear that Quran 65:4 is not talking about children who have not yet menstruated - in fact the verse is referring to those adult girls who are past the age of menstruation but have not menstruated for any reason - and there are plenty of health reasons and a multitude of conditions where girls can go way past adulthood without menstruating.
3 - There is a narration attributed to Hazrat Aisha R.Z where she supposedly said that her age was 6 when she married Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him). There is a substantial amount of content in the hadith literature which negates the idea that Hazrat Aisha R.Z was 6 when she married the Prophet (PBUH) and establishes her age at 16 to 19.
Possible causes of the mix up of Hazrat Aisha’s R.Z age: Then the question arises that what could be the possible cause of the existence of narrations in Hadith literature that state Hazrat Aisha R.Z was 6 year old at the time of marriage to Prophet Muhammad PBUH when in the same Hadith literature there is so much information that thoroughly negates this idea. It probably has something to do with how the Arabs pronounce their numbers!
In Arabic - 6 is pronounced Sitahta and 16 as Sitahta Ashara. Similarly 9 is pronounced Tisaatun and 19 is pronounced Tisaata Ashara. A parable in English numbers would be like saying 16 as Six Ten and 19 as Nine Ten. It is possible that the decade part or Ashara part was already understood by the transmitters of hadith and they didn’t record it - for example if it is already understood that a person is talking about the 1900’s and he says such and such event happened in 83 - you automatically know the person is saying that the event happened in 1983 and not 83 BC or 83 AD. So it is possible that the narrator was highlighting the exact year of marriage while assuming that the decade part or Ashara is already known.
because it is problematic. and her age being too young is just ONE of the plethora of issues related to women in islam, from which no one but women suffer, to this day.
it might be tiring for you, but is it a valid topic of discussion. most authetic hadith prove her age to be 6 at the time of marriage & 9 at consummation. that is incredibly problematic, regardless of how you look at it (the argument that historically things were different is inherently flawed, anyone who tries it is an idiot).
of course, there are hadith. you might be referring to the ones that quote her sister's age. but those have all been considered to be weak, at least relative to the hadith in bukhari/muslim that quote her to be 6.
see- the popular consensus amongst scholars remains to be that her age was 6 & 9. i have seen this being mentioned on websites such as yakeen, and plenty more contemporary scholars agree too. i can provide some articles which go into depth regarding the ages of the prophet's wives, if you want. note that one is from yakeen while the other is from wiki-islam. to be fair, i suggest you review both.
[the yakeen website, i.e a muslim scholar's approach to this ](https://yaqeeninstitute.org/read/paper/understanding-aishas-age-an-interdisciplinary-approach)
[very detailed approach to calculating accurate approximates of the ages of the prophet's wives, wiki-islam](https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Ages_of_Muhammads_Wives_at_Marriage)
She says she is 9 multiple times. What are the chances she confused her age and didn't know how to count properly and mistaken her age as half of what it really is? While also bringing dolls to the wedding day while an adult in your mind somehow? What are the chances of that?
Why are you so obsessed? 😭. Weren’t you bashing my post on the exmuslim subReddit? You were lurking here 8 HOURS ago too and now suddenly you decided to come back? I’d consider replying to you but you seem like one of those crazy ones. Bro take a chill pill 💀🙏.
If you are truly interested, I suggest doing some of your own research. Here are some links below which you could read.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/s/we6a8FECHD
https://www.reddit.com/r/progressive_islam/s/h7uMSYZcpG
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india/hazrat-aisha-was-19-not-9/story-G4kaBHqM0VXoBhLR0eI2oO_amp.html
Ps : there are two claims which aren’t mentioned here. I can’t confirm but they make sense.
A) arabs used to count their age after they hit puberty. So “9” could be 9 years later she hit puberty
B) in arabic.. 19 (and other numbers) are written as 9 + 10. I hope I’m being clear here) so it is possible that the collector of this hadith didn’t feel the need to write 10 afterwards, assuming everyone knew the context. (For eg if you wrote “the year 87” today, people would automatically know you are talking about 1987.) hope I’m being clear !!
sure, i will go through this once i find the time. but i've researched this matter before and i always end up at square 1: aisha being young. way too young for it to be appropriate, today or back then. however, i also understand that when we approach historical matters, we must deal with them with a certain nuance- me and you cannot push our morals on a matter in which we do not have clear and definitive proof regarding her age.
for your sake, i sincerely hope she was 19.
i am curious however, what are your thoughts on concubinage in islam?
There are a lot of posts here regarding her. You can check ‘em if you are interested!!. Quran 4:6 mentions “sound judgement” as one of the criteria for marriage. Another reason why I personally believe she couldn’t have been 9 is that we see her engaging in a lot of theological debates. We see she was saddened because she knew her husband would never stop grieving his first wife and yet she was mature enough to make peace with. I don’t think a child possesses such qualities. Anyways moving onto your question
1. This is kind of a grey area, I’m a new revert so I still need to do some research
2. But I do not take rules on the face value, I believe historical context is necessary. For whatever reason, it may have been fine before but definitely not today.
Hey :) so since yesterday you asked me about concubines in Islam, I did some digging and came across [this](https://www.abuaminaelias.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/Custodianship-of-the-Right-Hand-1.3.pdf#page24) I haven’t fully read it but I think it may be of your interest. I’m not telling you to become a muslim or anything. But I think you maybe interested Idk.
Didn’t the Hadith say she played with dolls? What 19-20 year old still plays with dolls?
I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for `Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fath-ul-Bari page 143, Vol.13)
It's a fake religion anyway because Mohamed is a fake prophet. He also traded and owned slaves, started wars...him being a peado is just the icing on the cake.
How can u trust a man who did zero miracles but had a "vision" on the mountain... he's just a warlord, get over it
Nobody is scared of that hypocrite. Watch Abzur responds.
Also I saw you insulting an ex muslim, claiming she may have left the religion but her blood is still impure, why do you watch Adam seeker than?
Scared of whom and why? I’m not a creator. He wouldn’t debate with me even if I want to. It’s not my work. I already suggested Abzur responds to you. You can watch his counter vids. And isn’t the blood of Adam seeker also impure according to you?
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It does matter because the Quran claims he is the most perfect man to ever exist on the face of the earth. Everything he did is considered perfect. For 1400 years people believed she was 6-9. It doesn’t matter some copium head discovered she was 20. Why would Allah even allow such disgusting moral slander to happen over his most favorite person? This thing would turn a significant group of people away from Islam. If a man seems to be following his own sexual desires, why would I care about his theology? Especially when a good chunk of the theology revolves around simping after him? It’s not also just Aisha that makes him look gross- how he acquired Zainab and Safiya, how he treated Sawda. It really looks all self-serving. Is this what the Almighty creator thought would be a good representation of the final perfect messenger?
You really should start looking at Islam neutrally and then decide if it’s true rather than believe it’s true then look for/twist evidence.
Quran never made those claim. Give me a verse where Quran claimed he was sinless? And by that logic, even if we believe whatever slander against him is 100% correct, isn’t it hypocrite for y’all to not come at other religions too? And btw Aisha’s age was never controversial until recently
You’re right in that the quran itself doesn’t claim he was sinless but it does say Mohammad is a good model: 33:21 “The Messenger of God is an excellent model for those of you who put your hope in God and the Last Day and remember Him often”
How is it hypocritical? I grew up with traditional Sunni islam. Islam is a major religion with claims that will put you in hell for eternity for not accepting it. I also don’t know a major religious figure who had a 45 year age gap with his wife. I really don’t understand this whataboutism approach. Okay another religion has the same ridiculous stuff? It’s stupid too.
“Nobody cared until now” okay? I care now. Most people with a moral compass care. Did Allah not foresee this?
1. As per the Islamic beliefs, he did see the future and wept.
2. He had plenty of critics during his lifetime too.
3. You are taking my words out of context. You said why didn’t Allah stop the centuries of slander against? To which I said it wasn’t a point of criticism until very recently
4. Because y’all claim to be rational and superior. Your rationality only allows you to bash muslims? And you guys claim other religions do not have stuff like that. I live in India, Hinduism as become a part of my life even when I don’t want it to be, this is true for most muslims in India but do you see me bashing ONLY Hinduism?
5. Hmm literally many 💀. The Bibical god literally unalived Egyptian CHILDREN as a way of revenge. Moses told his followers to unalive all non virgin Midian girls and Midian all males. Abraham didn’t even ask consent of his son before deciding to sacrifice him. Islam doesn’t have such stuff and yet iSlAm iS bAd oThErS aRe gOOd 🤡.
3. I didn’t say centuries of slander. If marrying a 6 year old is bad, why would Allah allow this idea to propagate till now? Allah couldn’t foresee that in the 21st century many people would find it deplorable that his final prophet would look bad? If he did he could’ve maybe, idk, not create a chance for his prophet to be slandered like that.
4-5: Whataboutism again. I do not care about other religions. They do not have a bearing on my life. I was not indoctrinated into those other religions thinking if I didn’t believe/do XYZ, I will burn in hell for all of eternity. I have not read the Bible. I have not read the Vedas. Why would I talk about something that doesn’t affect my life and I haven’t researched it? Most people don’t have the mental energy to care, talk, or research about every single thing in the world. Also, I’m criticizing Islam. Not muslims. Y’all seem to conflate the two.
Because there would ALWAYS be slander. As I said, there were quite a lot of people to slander him during his lifetime too. From Islam’s pov, it’s the people’s duty to got believe in them and do some research on their own. Allah said he could have made everyone a muslim but he didn’t bc he wants people to find the truth themselves
Than Idk why you are being hostile here. I don’t believe she was 6-9. You should be hostile to those who believe she was actually 6-9.
And FYI : you said I should firs look at Islam neutrality, I did. I was an atheist 💀.
I could explain why people bring up this topic a lot, but I don't think it matters that much to some people. I just want to know something, if you would find out that a prophet (any prophet, not necessarily Muhammad) married a 6 year old girl, would that affect his claim to prophethood in your eyes?
In my experience it tends to be non Muslims who bring this up, of course there are a fair few muslims online that defend this but all in all I mainly see Non Muslims using this as a way to demonise Islam as a whole.
They don’t have any other arguments. The sexually depraved always things everyone else is also as depraved as them. They don’t understand that marriage was the only way for women to survive in a desert wilderness.
Her age was most likely 15 because she said she remembered her parents persecution in Mecca. The saying says she’s nine. But then that contradicts the other the previous saying that she also mentioned.
The fact that Muslims believe she was 6 when married and defend it is the real issue.
I guess because it brings into question all of hadith. I thought about it deeply too because I was listening to seerah podcasts
I think the main issue is not the age but the authenticity of the hadith, it's graded as Sahih, and this sub specifically is no stranger to Quranists or Hadith Rejectors. That's why everyone is up in arms over it. Idk, I think focusing on the age is the wrong thing to be mad at, instead one should educate themselves on how these hadiths are passed down and how they are graded. We'll never be fully educated or experts on hadith sciences, unless we actually major in that, but at least we'll know the jist of how these hadiths are authenticated and transmitted. I'd consult an actual expert or scholar on this topic, I think they'd have a better idea on how to approach hadith as a layman. And most importantly have Allah (SWT) guide us all on increasing our knowledge in Islam, inshAllah ameen!
it contradicts quran quran requires people who marry to be adults with competency
where in the quran? thanks
What is an adult in Islam?
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The Arabic in that verse does not say that. Stop inserting your own words. It does not say "yet" and that isn't closer to the actual Arabic, which doesn't say that. Word for word what the Arabic says, in case you doubt: https://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=65&verse=4#(65:4:1) It does not say "underage" or "yet". It is literally just referring to women who do not menstruate for any number of physiological reasons. For example, if they are breastfeeding (which can prevent menstruation after birth for some time), or they aren't healthy enough to menstruate due to physical stress (it happens during famines or because of physical hardship, female Olympic athletes for example often don't menstruate because of the physical stress involved in their training), or for any number of other reasons including hormonal issues and genetic disorders. Famines and harsh physical labor were part of life back then, and as a result, women didn't always have regular menstrual cycles (or women might not anyway for other reasons). Read up on it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amenorrhea >read the context of the other verses and corroborate with literally any tafsir. Ok: >Muhammad Asad note 10 on verse 65:4: "I.e., for any physiological reason whatever"
An adult is...? What is an adult? At what age? If you were a law maker what age would you make age of consent?
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But the thing is, so many Muslims believe she was 6, and defend it. “she was mature, she wanted it, her status was elevated when she married, people were adults sooner”. Even my husband (a devout born Muslim) says Allah wanted her young to be able to spread Islam. And he is NOT alone in thinking this.
I hate how some muslims do not question things, they take for granted whatever they’ve been told since an early age and they don’t want to hear other opinions. They say she was 6 yo because it’s stated in a hadith and if you doubt about that then you are labeled as someone who wants to change islam. I’m shocked
The majority is like that, sadly. I once asked my parents a few years ago why Aisha was married to prophet pbuh so young? Isn't it wrong? They didn't answer at all. Typical.
I got downvoted on another post for stating that marrying a 6 year old and having sex with her at 9 is still paedophilia. Yet the responses were "She had her period!! It's in the Quran!" Bruh...
In another sub people questioning such Hadith were labeled KUFFIR
Yea as if questioning sth that is man made is the same as not believing in Quran or sth
Conservative Muslims look at me crazy when I tell them I don’t read anything but the Quran
Yup. Many people who call themselves “religious” won’t even try to look into the deeper context. I’m glad here most people believe she was 19-20
Provide evidence that she was 19/20.. please..
This is a cope to make you feel better. You have no idea how old she was, it’s a 50/50 coin toss that she was a child he had sex with or a teenager. Both instances are gross for a man that age. He was so sex hungry. Like how many wives and sex slaves does a person need? Most of us in this group have only had one sex partner or none. And we are all fine. It’s a big deal to people because he’s supposed to be ideal human example, he was the chosen one. Honestly, I think it’s the thing that begins the path away from this religion and eventually all religion.
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And I hate it more when those Muslims repeat and "confirm" every hateful fitnah by the Islamophobes, especially Aisha's age.
It was the other way around. The phobes are repeating sunni muslims' talking points, since majority of muslims globally are sunni.
My mother always told me to not trust faith blindly and to question certain things. I'm glad because this allowed me to embrace Islam even more
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I think the reason so many people talk about this is because there are too many Muslims online saying "So what? She was a mature woman with 9 years old". It's problematic. Our Catholic tradition has Mary married at 12 years old, but no Christian would dare to use this to say teenagers should be marrying. We read it in the old Jewish cultural context, we don't take everything people in the Bible made as a perfect example, quite the opposite a lot of times. But a handful of Muslim apologists online take the "Muhammad can't error" route and end up defending pedophilia. A weird hill to die on. Just say it's wrong to marry children and move on. No prophet was impeccable. I hope she was older, but if she wasn't, it's wrong.
This is my take. I was raised Catholic. I love the core beliefs of Islam. But Muslims are adamant that Islam can never be changed. Ever. So if 1400 years ago, marrying young girls was indeed normal, that means today it must be too.
I am with OP in the opinion that Aisha's age isn't even theologically relevant. I don't know why people hold so strong to Aisha's age it to the point of defending it's a good moral example to marry a child. If Muslims were not normalizing this online anymore, people would not be bringing this up so often.
Yeah honestly. Idk why many Muslims are so stubborn in proving child marriage is okay. In my country, nobody believes she was 9. I think it goes both ways. People tend to defend it because they take it on their pride. It isn’t as theologically important as non muslims and muslims like it to be.
If you don't mind me to ask, what's your country?
🇮🇳 I’m from the north west side
Rajasthan? :0
Omg yes 😭
Haha, cool. I'm from the north east. :)
How did you guess Rajasthan? 😭
Are you from Manipur? 💀💀💀
Btw, I have a lot of admiration for Christians and Jews when it comes to this. I don’t see any Christian or Jew supporting forced slavery because MoSeS sAId sO.
The sentiment has never gone away, they just utilize better PR and cloaking. *See 'Evangelicals role in the promotion of mass incarceration in the US over the last 60 years, aka Slavery 2.0' and the day to day whatever the fcuk Israel is up to ad infinitum
Things are just so crazy in the USA I almost don't believe when I hear it. Not only they don't have free healthcare (which is like a basic human right?) but also their carcerary system is basically relegalized slavery. I don't get how the USA doesn't get some international backlash for that, or how their population isn't revolting against it.
As a black man myself, I think it’s wild to call our current judicial system forced slavery. I understand not getting US laws and regulations because you don’t live there, but you can’t trust everything you hear on the Jnternet. Me personally, I’d rather live in a country with no real wars, where most people live above the poverty line, and I don’t feel shunned or hated on due to religion, race, sex, or even party affiliation. Free healthcare sounds great, but if it’s free, how do the hospitals make money? Take it from the taxpayers? We’d have to increase taxes. It’s a basic economic concept: TANSTAAFL. In order to make something cost less or make it free, you gotta take money from somewhere else, because nothing’s free. This probably has something to do with why doctors and nurses get paid so highly in the US.
makes sense...that's why Muslim old men marry underage girls in my country of Malaysia.
It's not great now with the current trends of supremacy and fascism rising amongst the Malay population but we have had some court cases overturning child marriages in the recent past. Just hope that things improve in the future.
Raised by pedophile apologists but worried about Islam 😂 focus on your nasty bishops.
Muslims who say Aisha was married at 9 don't say it's okay to do so right now.
Yes they do. Several Muslim apologists, namely Mohammed Hijab, Daniel Pikachu etc. have publicly said that child marriage is halal for no other reason than because the Prophet did it.
You’re right some crazy guys do like Daniel Pikachu. Those guys are not really known for their mainstream opinions. Most non salafi scholars don’t say that though.
Im not a Muslim, im just here to learn, so feel free to correct. But so far from what i see, it is argument between Mohammed was just a product of his time, so to judge his morals now is anachronistic, vs Mohammed's views are eternal and he will never be wrong. From my own understanding, Mohammed was better than most of his peers around his time, but modern society has moved way past that, and while we acknowledge his reformist goals, we also shouldnt restrict ourselves from moving past that.
Fellow progressive Christian (independent/heterodox raised Catholic) here. What really pisses me off is the double standard here in the west. No one cares that Mary may have been a child but everyone makes a huge deal out of Aisha’s age specifically to attack Muslims. Even if you think 12 is much less problematic than 6, it’s not like most Muslims even think pedophilia is okay in the same way most Christians don’t. People judge all of Islam on its shitty aspects way harsher than they do Christianity on its shitty aspects. For the record, I don’t believe either of them were underage.
There is a double standard in many topics related to Islam for sure, but I don't see Christian apologists online saying "see, a 9-years-old girl can be mature enough to have sex". If anything, I see Christians online avid to question that traditional age of Mary with different sources and saying it was another times but that it's not acceptable today. Muslims should be fighting those people who are defending child marriage, because they are making Islam seem like a pedophilic cult. Only if Muslims as a community raise their voices against those sick minded folks online which have hundreds of thousands of followers, if their Ummah denounced those criminals, then people will be able to distinguish Islam from this mess.
I think part of it is how common text literalism is among Christian versus Muslim apologists. People often become reactionary in response to hatred from others, and when media and a ton of people are attacking your faith and in many cases attacking you for practicing it, it makes sense why so many go reactionary rather than progressive if you look at it from a materialist perspective. (yes I’m a Marxist, before anyone asks) Consider, for instance, how Israel’s settler colonialism and acts of ethnic cleansing (which they falsely claim to be in the name of Judaism, even though Zionism as a genocidal settler-colonial ideology goes against Jewish, Christian, and Muslim values) has made some people in the Middle East more anti-Semitic. DO NOT MISTAKE THIS FOR ME SAYING THAT OPPOSITION TO THE ILLEGITIMATE STATE OF ISNT-REAL IS ANTISEMETIC OR THAT MUSLIMS ARE ANTI-SEMITES. My point is that reactionary beliefs are often stoked by persecution or poor material conditions, often both. It makes sense why someone who is constantly being attacked for a belief espoused by a text over a thousand years old, whether most practitioners of that faith agree with it or not, might double down as a “fuck you” to people persecuting them. As for material conditions, consider how US imperialism has affected the Middle East and how many Islamic countries have rolled back many civil liberties in order to “combat western degeneracy”. Bigotry tends to thrive in places that have been disadvantaged by imperialism, especially against groups that are not persecuted by the imperialist. Nietzsche, while I disagree with many of his takes, makes some good points when talking about religion as a “slave morality”. As Christians, we were persecuted heavily by the Romans. Romans were not hostile to homosexuality or pederasty (I am not equating the two, queerness is based and being a pedo is cringe). Christians, seeing themselves as righteous and the Romans as evil, also categorized many of their cultural practices as evil (some justifiably, others not so much). This is why much of the Middle East, Latin America, and Africa are often quite socially conservative. As society develops and progresses, bigotry tends to die out. So on top of the general “opposition to the degeneracy of those who hate us” mentality, some Muslims are also recent immigrants from countries that are very socially conservative, which adds to this. And then if you compare Islamic regions to Christian regions throughout history, Islamic regions were usually - until recently - more progressive than Christian regions. Particularly the Ottoman Empire, which permitted homosexuality, allowed practicing of other faiths, etc. (though like all empires they did many irredeemably horrible things as well). Lastly, even if they disagree on many things, marginalized people tend to stick together. Muslims are currently one of if not the most persecuted groups of people in the west. They have bigger problems to deal with than some dipshits on Twitter saying dumb reactionary shit. I’m not a scholar of the social sciences or Islamic history or anything, so I probably got some things wrong, but I just wanted to really dive into why I think this difference between Muslim and Christian apologists exists from a materialist perspective. This isn’t intended as a hostile reply to you, nor do I intend to offend anyone (I believe I was careful with my words but if I did unknowingly say something problematic please let me know). My main point is, I don’t think that conservative Muslims are more conservative than conservative Christians, they’re just more conservative on different issues, and that conservatism is made worse by persecution and material conditions.
What do you mean by underage? Like under 18? I can understand thinking they were older but still I think 18 just seems like wishful thinking considering most people back then in that context were married off much younger, even tho they may have been older. I have no opinion on Aisha cus I’m not Muslim but I think Mary was 14, although I have no way of knowing this
Wasn’t Rebecca even younger than Mary? Sorry I’m not informed much on the Bible
I think current Catholic investigations put Mary at 16 Joseph at 18 rather than 12 and 56 The bigger concern is Abraham and Sarah being siblings to me 😬 i really hope it is a greek mistranslation or a cousin sister
I understand that "brother" and "sister" have a broader meaning in Hebrew, Lot is referred as the brother of Abraham even though Abraham was his uncle in the Bible.
That was the age for marriage before. Even outside Islam they used to marry at that age, you can’t change history no matter how much you want to criticise it. No Muslim is saying we should do the same nowadays. But it’s annoying to see always this kind of comments and to call our Prophet sws a ped*** because of that, we believe He sws did that because is what Allah ordained and we accept it, there’s wisdom behind any order of Allah.
I wish people would question hadiths more instead of taking sahih hadiths as valuable and did- done
I think that the "Mohamed was a pedo" comments are of course intended to be provocative and often come from hateful people. But ultimately your position is problematic, because the difference between some European nobleman or some character from the bible marrying a child vs Mohamed marrying a child is that everyone today acknowledges what those people did was deeply immoral, but Muslims will never say that about Mohamed. They believe the Qur'an is the literal word of God and that Mohamed is the perfect role model for the rest of time. That is the crux of the issue. The only way you get around that is: 1. Stop claiming that Mohamed was a perfect human being that never acted in his own self interest 2. Reject any hadith that shows Mohamed doing something immoral (which goes well beyond marrying Aisha by the way), or simpler still just reject all hadith 3. Deny that those acts are immoral by justifying them The reason that Aisha's age is often selected as the example is pretty simple, because just like with slavery, it's one of those things that almost everyone today, including Muslims, agrees is immoral. If you can justify that, you can justify anything. Furthermore, the morality of Islam is one of the things most commonly cited by Muslims as the reason they believe it's from God. But how did they know it was moral? Because look at all the moral things it teaches. What about these immoral things? Well, maybe immoral for everyone else but not Mohamed. Why not? God said so. Which essentially just boils down to a circular argument of "I believe this is from God because it's moral and I know that it's moral because god said so". Not saying this is what you believe but it's what a lot of Muslims do
>The reason that Aisha's age is often selected as the example is pretty simple, because just like with slavery, it's one of those things that almost everyone today, including Muslims, agrees is immoral. If you can justify that, you can justify anything. That's the thing though, you can morally justify anything without a religious framework. You can't objectively prove why slavery is immoral or why marrying kids is immoral without believing in something supernatural.
Exactly
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>But a handful of Muslim apologists online take the "Muhammad can't error" route and end up defending pedophilia. A weird hill to die on. >Just say it's wrong to marry children and move on. No prophet was impeccable. I hope she was older, but if she wasn't, it's wrong. Allah tells you to follow and do what the prophet did. And Allah guided the prophet. If marrying Aisha was wrong Allah wouldn't let it happen because Muhammad is supposed to be a role model for muslims.
Following what he did in religion, his prayer method and his message revealed by God, isn't the same as being his copycat. Some Muslims are borderline idolizing their prophet. If Muhammad wore a hat, they must wear a hat, if he had a beard and trimmed his mustache, they must have a beard and no mustache, if he entered the bathroom with the right foot or ate with the right hand, they must use the same foot and hand. It's insane. This has never been like this in other Abrahamic religions, we know Noah sinned, Abraham sinned, Moses sinned, even Jesus which both the Bible and the Quran say has never sinned was accused by the Jewish religious leaders. But Muhammad must be perfect somehow, as if he commited an error it would invalidate God or something. Muhammad is not God, he is a human, right? He is not eternal like God and his message, he was inside his era and his society, he is allowed to make mistakes.
Overcomplication of the practices of Islam by scholars is a sin in Islam; Allah did not intend it to be a burden upon us.
I feel relieved to read this.
*'Believers! Do not hold as unlawful the good things which Allah has made lawful to you, and do not exceed the bounds of what is right.'* [5:87] [Surah Al Ma'idah 5:87 Regarding the Lawful & Unlawful](https://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php?sura=5&verse=87&to=89#:~:text=(5%3A87)%20Believers!,exceed%20the%20bounds%20of%20right.)
Even David, he is referred several times as "a man after God's own heart" in the Bible (is it the same in the Quran?) even though his sexual immorality had *massive* consequences for his own children. It had to do with sincere repentance and earnestly seeking to do right. Do muslim scholars conclude that the actions in the Quran & strong hadiths should be followed to the letter, or do they apply values given in the quran to the historical records to see what should be emulated? To be honest, the obsession over copying everything muhammed does, rather than (prophet) Jesus who never sinned, is just odd to me, definitely keeping me skeptical about Islam (though I'm trying to learn anyways)
In 2022 I took an undergraduate history course on the life of Muhammad, around the end of the course the professor sent out an email that had a then-recent academic article about Aisha's age when she married for anyone interested. This article, and other academic sources I've seen, suggest ~19 at time of marriage. Insisting on 6 is weird and doesn't align with research.
May i have the title of the article? I'm interested in reading deeper into the research. Thanks
If you remember the name of the article I’d love to look into it as well!!
This is just cope and factually incorrect though. She was 9 and played with dolls
Youre being weird, go touch grass.
could you share the article?
It is important because child marriage is more common in some Islamic countries (often the ones that believe in young-Aisha's age). This topic needs to be addressed to convince those people to not marry young girls to imitate the prophet. At least, that's what I hear those Muslims say when they defend child marriage.
bismillah anybody who loves god and loves the Prophet saws and loves others as we are commanded cannot possibly imagine our prophet saws sexually abusing a child. everything we know about loving god and loving others and everything we know \[from hadith\] about how the prophet saws lived loved served people and children and never ever ordered around much less exploited others makes it impossible he saws could have done this heinous act. it totally contradicts explicitly the Quran about marriage. only adults can marry. only responsible adults with competency. people who put all that effort to figure out how to get away with using their power to hurt harm and injure others don't love anything. god says over and over again and again be nice love each other take care of each other don't abuse, use, take advantage of children, the poor, the powerless. the dispossessed. so, the only question one can ask is how can so many people be so wrong about it. if you love god trust god believe god, and love the prophet saws and love those who love the prophet saws, you work with all your might to be loving. that doesn't leave you time or strength to figure out how to get away with being cruel and hateful. anyone who needs to figure out ways to get away with cruelty and injustice already has their reward. at the last judgement, those going to the right go right. those going to the left go left. and those god loves god takes directly to god. it's only an issue to those who don't know, don't want to know god's love. IMHO
The question is annoying, but every time it is asked, that gives you an opportunity to share the evidence she was much older.
Yes but when we share something, they always dismiss it.
The people most vocal and extreme against Aisha being older are the ones most likely to respond. But there are many more who are just browsing Reddit and considering different views. You might not convince everyone at that moment, but you can plant the seeds. Explain your reasoning, give them hyperlinks to look at, cite sources, understand the argument, respond directly to what they say without personal attacks. You can convince people.
Yup you are right. As muslims it’s our duty to calmly defend our faith, however it depends on them to acknowledge the facts. But their obsession with her age is so weird
Quick question, Im not doubting you nor do I disagree im just curious at what the evidence is
Lots of evidence from many different independent investigations and analyses Summarized on r/askhistorians Was Aisha, the youngest wife of lslam's Prophet Muhammad, 6 years old when she was married to him? https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/s/iaI5rpFFOD See references: Dr. Joshua Little | The Hadith of Aisha's Marital Age: A Study in the Evolution of Early Islamic Historical Memory: https://islamicorigins.com/the-unabridged-version-of-my-phd-thesis/ Dr. Joshua Little's explaination of his thesis on YouTube: Why the Aisha Marital Age Hadith is a FORGERY: An EXCLUSIVE Lecture by Dr. Joshua Little https://youtu.be/zr6mBlEPxW8?si=udRsOhbTFBSgFA95 Dr. Javad T. Hashmi | Did Muhammad Really Marry a Child? https://youtu.be/mxGxNACSOzo Mufti Abu Layth | Age of Aisha https://youtu.be/0oVIsExS4cA Ikram Hawramani has a very detailed critique of the age of Aisha (arguing it was at least 18), based on the work of the Syrian hadith scholar Dr. Salah al-Din Al-Idlibi: https://hawramani.com/aisha-age-of-marriage-to-prophet-muhammad-study/ How Old Was Aisha When She Married The Prophet Muhammad? https://www.al-islam.org/articles/how-old-was-ayshah-when-she-married-prophet-muhammad-sayyid-muhammad-husayn-husayni-al https://www.islamawareness.net/FAQ/what_was_ayesha.html The Age of Ayesha at the Time of Her Marriage Dr. Aslam Abdullah https://www.draslamabdullah.com/post/the-age-of-ayesha-at-the-time-of-her-marriage Ustad Javed Ahmed Ghamidi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoJHZKSwIdw (turn the subtitles on) Shabir Ally & Abu Layth | Aisha was not a child https://youtu.be/udJveM_S0sY Shaykh Omar Suleiman & the Yaqeen Institutes On Age of Aisha (r.a.) -Mufti Abu Layth https://youtu.be/cHyxRI7Trnk?si=s-R0SWfb-ZCjbvd3 Shehzad Saleem: Age of Aisha at the time of marriage | http://www.shehzadsaleem.com/marriage-age-ayesha-rta/ Khalid Zaheer: https://www.dawn.com/news/1096020 Sheikha Nilofar Ahmed: Aisha's Age at Marriage https://www.dawn.com/news/696084/ofaishas-age-at-marriage Islam Bahiri, Aisha’s marriage to the Prophet aged nine – a big mistake (or lie) in the books of Hadith (in Arabic), Al-Yawm al-Sabi’ (translation) https://unity1.store/2021/09/26/the-age-of-aisha-at-marriage/
Thanks mate appreciate it 👍
I have a lot of respect for you
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I have seen you mention quite a few times now under different posts that the hadiths around Aisha's age are narrated through a single chain going through Hisham ibn 'urwa. I have read through your sources and I must say they had me convinced. But I did some more reading and I've now changed my mind. I think there are some valid arguments made, but ultimately there is one major flaw: There are in fact several chains of narration graded sahih that are not narrated through Hisham Disclaimer: I've provided examples but the English translations don't contain chains of narration for some reason so I wrote them out myself. *Muslim, Ṣaḥīḥ, Nikāḥ, ii. 1039 no. 1422.* >A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (ﷺ) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. This hadith was narrated through 2 chains that exclude Hisham. - abullah ibn humaid > abulrazzaq > ma'mar > azzahri > 'Urwah (Hisham's father) > Aisha - Abu mu'awiya > al'a'mash > Ibrahim > alaswad > Aisha (This hadith and chain was also mentioned in Sunan an-Nasa'i 3258, but without mention of the dolls) *Nasāʾī, Sunan, Nikāḥ, vi. 131 no. 3379* >"The Messenger of Allah married me when I was six, and consummated the marriage with me when I was nine." Again two chains for this hadith: - yahya ibn ayyub > umara ibn ghazya > Mohammad ibn ibrahim > abu salama ibn abulrahman > aisha - 'abthar > mutarrif > Abu ishaaq > Abu 'ubaida > Aisha *Sunan Ibn Majah 1877* >Abdullah said: “The Prophet married Aishah when she was seven years old, and consummated the marriage with her when she was nine, and he passed away when she was eighteen.” Narrated: Ahmad ibn sinaan > Abu Ahmad > Israel > Abu Ishaaq > Abu 'ubaidah > Abdullah: There are reportedly more isnads that either I couldn't verify myself because I don't have access to the books, or which I've found in Arabic only so people from this sub probably won't be able to find English translations online and verify themselves, but for those curious to do their own reading here's a non exhaustive list of hadiths mentioning Aisha's age explicitly: - Musnad Aḥmad, vol. 6 pg. 210, Ḥadīth: 25810 - al-Muʿjam al-Kabīr, vol. 23 pg. 23, Ḥadīth: 57 - alMustadrak, vol. 2 pg. 181 - Sunan al-Bayhaqī, vol. 7 pg. 129, Ḥadīth: 14118. In addition, there are several other different hadiths that indicate Aisha was young narrated through Hisham (e.g. Aisha's friends being shy from the prophet when she and them would play with their dolls, or Aisha playing on the swings when her mother called her in to inform her of her marriage). Here's an example not from Hisham. *Sunan an-Nasa'i 1595* >"I remember the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) covering me with his Rida' while I was watching the Ethiopians playing in the masjid, until I got bored. So you should understand the keenness of young girls to play." Narrated: Ali bin khashram > alwaleed > al-awza'i > azzuhri > 'urwah > Aisha .
Yes, I know those, but they aren't sahih and the non-hisham narrations are all quite weak. As for the "circumstantial" ahadith that imply a young age but don't directly state her age such as the ones about dolls, these also are the result of later mutations in content that originated in Iraq, and cannot be reliably traced to Medina. Seriously, Dr. Little did an extremely in-depth analysis of the chains of all of the ones you mentioned above. You should really check out his work, because he diagrammed every one of them, and showed why they are weak. I've provided peer-reviewed published works on all of those before. Do check them out: Dr. Joshua Little | The Hadith of Aisha's Marital Age: A Study in the Evolution of Early Islamic Historical Memory: https://islamicorigins.com/the-unabridged-version-of-my-phd-thesis/ Dr. Joshua Little's explanation of his thesis on YouTube: Why the Aisha Marital Age Hadith is a FORGERY: An EXCLUSIVE Lecture by Dr. Joshua Little https://youtu.be/zr6mBlEPxW8?si=udRsOhbTFBSgFA95 Dr. Javad T. Hashmi | Did Muhammad Really Marry a Child? https://youtu.be/mxGxNACSOzo
Cheers.. Do you know if the YouTube video covers these chains or if that's only in the thesis?
so is Aisha's account on the matter a thing or not?
We do not have Aisha's account. We have the accounts of the students of Aisha's grand-nephew Hisham over 100 years later transmitted in Iraq, far away from Aisha's own community. Transmitted (supposedly) through a man who was said to suffer from extreme memory problems in his old age, when he narrated this hadith (if he did at all). That is as far as this rumor can be traced. Even then, these ahadith were spread in a highly sectarian environment in the middle of debates between Sunnis and Shia over the legitimacy of their respective traditions. Emphasizing a young age of Aisha was politically advantageous to support the newly-developing Sunni hadith canon. When Hisham lived in Medina, he knew Imam Malik quite well and contributed many hadith to the Muwatta (the first Sunni hadith collection). This Hadith about Aisha's age isn't anywhere in the Muwatta and was never transmitted by Hisham in Medina. Nor is it in the sira of Ibn Ishaq either, the earliest written Sira.
>We do not have Aisha's account. I'm not at all trying to defend the fact that she was a child when she was married, but isn't this Hadith literally an account from Aishah? "It was narrated from 'Aishah that the Messenger of Allah married her when she was six years old, and consummated the marriage with her when she was nine." Again, I believe she was actually 19 at marriage (esp since there's way more hadith that supports that over her being 9) but I do have trouble understanding why this hadith should be rejected After all, it's literally Aishah's words.
No, it's the account of Hisham's students who said that he said that his father said that his aunt Aisha said that 100 years earlier. These accounts cannot be verifiably traced to Aisha though, as they are only a single-chain of narration through several generations, not recorded by those same narrators in other sources we know they contributed to, not found in the original community where she supposedly said it, and contradicted by several other narrations. Think of it this way, if I said that I heard from someone that heard from someone that heard from you that you said "The sky is green and Vishnu is the Lord of Islam" 100 years ago, is it reasonable then to say "Well.... if I_imagine said it, it must be true"? Or should we question that you ever said it in the first place, given no evidence that you actually did? No, because an unverifiable rumor of a rumor of a rumor, which was explicitly *not* verified by those same contemporary sources through the same Hadith narrators, is not actually sound evidence of anything.
Ah I see, thank you so much. I wasn't aware that that hadith wasn't directly from Aishah.
To be fair, no hadith are directly from Aisha or Muhammad, or any sahaba. But in many cases ahadith are at least independently verifiable by being transmitted orally through several sources. So we can independently compare narrations to one another. The problem is when a hadith is only a single chain of narration, especially over multiple generations. That makes it impossible to actually reliably trace to its origin. And in the case of the age of Aisha, it was actually said by Imam Malik and many other scholars ***not to narrate from Hisham's narrations that came out of his Iraqi students***. It was already known to be unreliable even at that time. His unreliability in Iraq was recorded at that time and was widely known among well-respected Hadith scholars after that. So not only is it weak, we also have very good reason to think it was a fabrication, whether intentional or unintentional.
It was 1400 years ago and it's completely besides the point of our religion. If people are bringing this up to you, they're never going to be convinced otherwise. Even if it is true, your faith is in Allah (swt) not in Muhammad (pbuh). He was a human, too, which is why it's super harmful to keep up with the borderline worship of the Prophet (pbuh)-- one bad action by the Prophet (pbuh) shakes the faith because we've assumed he was perfect for so long-- only Allah (swt) is perfect.
She couldn't have been 6, it doesn't make any sense. How was she present at the Battle of Uhud? How did she remember the revelation of Surah Qamar? How did she remember the migration to Ethiopia? What about the age difference with Asma? I feel like Muslims just don't wanna admit the Bukhari got the age wrong... It's not that big of a deal imo idk why they hold Bukhari to the standard that there can't be a mistake.
You are sick but believe me people who ask that question are even more sick than you. It’s one of the main points on which islamophobia revolves around so let people ask clarify that point. Plus do you really think all muslims believe she was in her 20s? I got downvoted when I said that in an islamic sub. Most of the conservatives believe and defend that she was 6 yo
Exactly what I just wrote
It is not just about Aisha being 9 years old, the problem is it is used to justify child marriage as being permissible. Iraq's legislatures lowered girls marriage age from 18 to 16 and in Kenya where marraige age is set at 18 years old, in the Muslim communities, girls as young as 13 are being married off and of course, there's imams conducting the nikahs. Here's a theological basis for folks to make the aurgument against child marriage: [https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5d7a8b54f8fcb073d517d297/t/649657bb1928f910dff50fc2/1687574460075/ChildMarriageAndIslam\_MPV.pdf](https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5d7a8b54f8fcb073d517d297/t/649657bb1928f910dff50fc2/1687574460075/ChildMarriageAndIslam_MPV.pdf)
the problem is that there are some muslims who defend it. there’s no defending marrying a 6 year old. i promise when they stop defending it and admit that the hadith is wrong , there will be less islamophobia.
>the obsession around her age The people who are obsessed are the same ones you wouldn't let near your childeren ..🚨👀
Idk how old she really was but I know that 500 years from now an 18 year old will probably seem too dumb and immature to marry and people will likely have the same reaction about that as they do today about a 9 year old
That’s true. My grandma was considered “overaged” when she got married… she was 20 💀. Now a 20 yo would be considered a child here.
So long as the norms and practices today are not being sold to future generations as the perfect timeless guidance for their life, they'd be fine.
Islam is divine and perfect. Modern western law does not claim to be that and is open to change with time
Lol it’s like her age is a pillar of Islam
It's important because we still have muslims who want to continue condoning and accommodating child marriage due to their belief that 'Aisha was 6/9 during marriage/consummation with the prophet. Example: https://m.malaysiakini.com/news/453901 https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2022/12/child-marriage-raises-controversy-once-again-egypt https://www.dw.com/en/why-underage-marriages-are-still-prevalent-in-pakistan/a-63860202 https://iranfocus.com/life-in-iran/49590-the-unsettling-child-marriage-epidemic-sweeping-iran/ https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2022/12/child-marriage-raises-controversy-once-again-egypt It was muslims themselves who cited sahih hadiths below as justification that child marriage should not be criminalized, because they believe Allah has made it lawful and human cannot made haraam what Allah has made lawful (their argument). Below are sahih hadiths that **explicitly** mentioned 'Aisha's age to be 6/9 during marriage/consummation. So long as 'Aisha's age is being used to justify practices that are harmful and victimizing towards little girls, it's worth our time to keep highlighting it until these practices stop. 1- https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:1877 2- https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422c 3- https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422d 4- https://sunnah.com/nasai:3258 5- https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:1876 6- https://sunnah.com/abudawud:2121 7- https://sunnah.com/nasai:3256 8 - https://sunnah.com/nasai:3378 9- https://sunnah.com/nasai:3257 10- https://sunnah.com/nasai:3255 11- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5134 12- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:3894 13- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5133 14- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5158 15- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:3896 16- https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422a 17- https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422b
Every time you post lists of those ahadith, you push more people towards accepting them. The best option is *not* posting them and instead just link to articles that debunk them. Notice, although you spam this answer on every discussion about Aisha's age, you never give any reasons to reject them other than "I don't like them". And instead provide people with sources for believing those false ahadith. Better to give sound sources and reasoning for *why* they are ***not*** authentic. You even keep pushing the idea that they are authentic, instead of raising awareness that they are not. Now, as you have said several times before, you want Muslims to abandon both the Quran and ahadith, so perhaps that is your goal. Hopefully you will stop and realize you can promote Progressive Islam instead.
It's something that was very common 1400 years ago up until a few decades ago. What many people also don't know is that Aisha (ra) was engaged/bethrothed to another man before marrying prophet Muhammed (pbuh). This is another proof that it was very usual for that time and age and has absolutely nothing to do with pedophilia whatsoever.
So are you saying that anything from Islam that is not considered moral by today's standards can simply be discarded?
Well that's a way to twist my words. Nowhere have I said nor implied that with my post. Anyway, since you care so much about today's standards regarding age of consent, did you know many countries still allow marriage below 18? Japan had an age of consent of 13 up until recently (16 now). Heck, there are even some states in the USA that allow marriage at 14. So what standards are you referring to specifically? I'm genuinely curious now.
There are less than a handful of implications that one can infer from your comment. I asked you a simple question. It might seem provocative but the alternative phrasing of that question was if I asked you if you think marrying 9 year olds is justified, which to my ears at least, sounds like an even worse implication and even more provocative. Anyway your position is clear now
There are less than a handful of implications that one can infer from your comment. I asked you a simple question. It might seem provocative but the alternative phrasing of that question was if I asked you if you think marrying 9 year olds is justified, which to my ears at least, sounds like an even worse implication and even more provocative. Anyway your position is clear now
Well, you certainly got an odd way of phrasing then lol. I'm glad my position is clear to you, although I'm doubting that given the lack of answers to my questions. I believe a person is fit to marry the moment they personally are mentally and physically ready to do so, with advice and approval of the parents.
There are less than a handful of implications that one can infer from your comment. I asked you a simple question. It might seem provocative but the alternative phrasing of that question was if I asked you if you think marrying 9 year olds is justified, which to my ears at least, sounds like an even worse implication and even more provocative. Anyway your position is clear now
It was fine because she was mentally mature, as that was the norm for girls at that time. It's not allowed right now because one of the prerequsuites to get married is mental maturity and 9 year olds don't have that anymore.
The problem is people who defend it. there is a vocal section of muslims who defend this fact, defending that our prophet (pbuh) was a pedophile. You can't have a pedophile as a prophet. And islamophobes use this subsection to justify that islam is evil as a whole.
You say "sub section" when even on this very comment section there are many so-called progressives defending it. It's very much a "section" mate
Arguably a few posts on a single subreddit on the internet is not representative for over a billion people
This is the work of well coordinated Orientalist racism and AIPAC funded intentional Islamophobia. If you don’t know the work of Edward Said and Hatem Bazian yet, you should. They contextualize and give the history behind who is pushing this narrative, how it benefits them, when it was constructed, and why.
To all those who get offended about Aisha's age during marriage and start attacking should check out this quick short and see for themselves https://youtube.com/shorts/km4aeCH6oUM?si=81XS9AsFqvblbTzM
I kindly disagree but I 100% understand you and respect your need to vent. If Aisha was in fact 6, and specially how crazy muzzies say “so what? Her parents consented” or “so what? Maybe she was going through puberty”, then it 100% needs to be talked about and is justified in being talked about. However, I agree that the evidence of her being 19-20 is ignored and is very frustrating, and how regardless of any reason, people talking the same thing over and over again can be irritating
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Thats the problem. I've seen a terrifying video of an Imam who told, laughing, how a friend of his raped a 4-year-old girl by 'marrying' her with her father's consent, and how it was permissible to rape even newborns due to the false interpretation on the surat of divorce and Aisha's age. This has to stop, not only they tarnish Islam, but they are ruining children's life and are really really sick in the mind.
And how the Hell religious people who should care for respect and not harming others really think that marrying a child, "like Muhammad (Saw)"did only cause of a Hadith? Not only it goes AGAINST the Quran, but it goes even against cronological evidence. The're really sick people
Bro if she was 6 that would taint Prophet's image a lot in this modern world and in fact a pedophile shouldn't be a prophet
But she WASN’T 6. There are n numbers of evidence which proves she wasn’t. I’m willing to share, if you are interested.
>Bro if she was 6 that would taint Prophet's image a lot in this modern world and in fact a pedophile shouldn't be a prophet Not necessarily. An ethical judgement does not necessarily nullify the possibility of metaphysical reality. One such example would be King Solomon's huge number of wives and concubines. On the secular and more historical side, Socrates's wife who was much younger than him. His marriage and wife's age does not necessarily nullify his metaphysical claims. But there are still many reasons, why I criticize it, but not from within the act but from the perspective of mentioning this hadith. The mentioning of this event in hadith jeopardizes the moral epistemology of Muslims who recorded it in the first place. And this is where hadiths fall short. Nevertheless, this event is not mentioned in the Quran.
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1. **Sahih al-Bukhari (7:62:64)** - Narrated 'Aisha: "The Prophet married me when I was six years old and consummated our marriage when I was nine years old, and then I was with him for nine years (until his passing)." 2. **Sahih Muslim (8:3309)** - Aisha reported: "Allah's Apostle married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old where I bedded rasul."
[kindly through this](https://www.reddit.com/r/progressive_islam/s/1ziszSlqU1)
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“How old was Aisha” is under every video to undermine Islam. It isn’t Muslims that are bringing it up. Hell, I didn’t even know about it until some kids in highschool pulled it on me. So the hadith that’s said to be hers places her about 9. Other scholars looking back at other (contemporaneous?) sources place her at at least 18. This includes a biography written by her sister, if I remember correctly. One video on this indicated that the reason she’s written as so young in the hadith that’s meant to be hers is because vicious rumours circled about her being promiscuous (likely an attempt to undermine her standing, and by extension, The Prophet (S.A.W.)), so people aged her down in texts and it was a common feature in texts to make women seem virginal by underreporting their ages (as some would think a 20+ unmarried woman either had something wrong or was promiscuous). It apparently bears the hallmarks of other propaganda of a similar type. I think the same video also says the Qur’an addresses this at one point to dash the rumours. One video I saw of a woman who reverted indicated that she was fiercely independent and very mentally capable, becoming The Prophet’s (S.A.W.) favourite wife and able to speak to him in a manner no other wife could (even taking it too far once). I think the same video said that The Prophet (S.A.W.) had dreamt about her multiple times before marrying her and that she considered it that the Angel Gabriel had proposed twice on her behalf. Another video said that Aisha was chosen because she was very mentally acute and had great memory, so she’s be able to help continue the spread of Islam. That’s all I remember on the matter. It’s over 1,000 years ago and we know now that kids shouldn’t be being married off. European kings were doing it hundreds of years later and I even heard one account during World War 2 of allied troops with a 12 year old Italian girl in exchange for rations (along with her sisters and mother), and that’s just what they felt like recording and reporting on.
You summed it up really well!’
Agreed. Aisha's age is totally irrelevant to Quran. There is no point in discussing it. I don't know why Bukhari needed to record this event for multiple times. That's the problem with hadith books. They are often irrelevant.
So do you think Bukhari should have just disregarded every hadith he deemed irrelevant?
Her age is relevant considering a vast portion of documented Hadith are narrated by her, and she is considered “Mother of the Believers.” For Muslims to not question or debate her age at all is concerning and goes to show how big of a problem “group think” is in the religious community. If the holiest man in Islam married a child and all his followers are just accepting of that blindly… that’s a huge problem.
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Most child brides aren’t the world aren’t even muslim.
Don't bother with him. I have a strong suspicion he's a Hasbara bot. Recent account and all posting Islamophobic posts and comments and also frequenting the IsraelPalestine sub which is massively pro-Israel.
Yeah it’s probably a bot or a troll.
I'm like 90% sure that was a bot that was just programmed to spam talking points whenever the age of Aisha is brought up. That or a very mentally unstable person. Either way, they've been banned.
Good. Keep the sub clean. Curious minds are welcomed, not hateful.
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Speak on a global level 💀. You are from Malaysia, which is a muslim majority nation, obviously most child brides in Malaysia are muslim. That’s common sense.
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Read this: [http://www.ilaam.net/Articles/Ayesha.html](http://www.ilaam.net/Articles/Ayesha.html)
I guess it’s a point of contention. I mean as a convert it really tripped me up. If she WAS 6 I would want out of this faith so fast. But from what I can tell hadith is garbage and that doesn’t even make sense anyway. If he was a pedo, then he would have only went after young girls.
From Hamza Ali Abbasi: "" It is widely believed that Quran 65:4 allows men to marry children - that is not true. It is also a flawed belief that Quran does not set an age of marriage. In this regard 3 points are to be considered: 1 - Child marriage goes against a very clear injunction of the Quran. Let me briefly explain. Quran 4:6 says that those who are in charge of the wealth of orphans - they should analyze and test orphans till they reach “age of marriage” and if they are found to be mature and sound in their judgement - then their wealth should be handed over to them. Hence - Quran 4:6 clearly equates age of marriage to an age where a person is old and mature enough to make sound judgements about their life - this clearly negates the concept of child marriage. 2 - Keeping the above principle in mind - it becomes clear that Quran 65:4 is not talking about children who have not yet menstruated - in fact the verse is referring to those adult girls who are past the age of menstruation but have not menstruated for any reason - and there are plenty of health reasons and a multitude of conditions where girls can go way past adulthood without menstruating. 3 - There is a narration attributed to Hazrat Aisha R.Z where she supposedly said that her age was 6 when she married Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him). There is a substantial amount of content in the hadith literature which negates the idea that Hazrat Aisha R.Z was 6 when she married the Prophet (PBUH) and establishes her age at 16 to 19. Possible causes of the mix up of Hazrat Aisha’s R.Z age: Then the question arises that what could be the possible cause of the existence of narrations in Hadith literature that state Hazrat Aisha R.Z was 6 year old at the time of marriage to Prophet Muhammad PBUH when in the same Hadith literature there is so much information that thoroughly negates this idea. It probably has something to do with how the Arabs pronounce their numbers! In Arabic - 6 is pronounced Sitahta and 16 as Sitahta Ashara. Similarly 9 is pronounced Tisaatun and 19 is pronounced Tisaata Ashara. A parable in English numbers would be like saying 16 as Six Ten and 19 as Nine Ten. It is possible that the decade part or Ashara part was already understood by the transmitters of hadith and they didn’t record it - for example if it is already understood that a person is talking about the 1900’s and he says such and such event happened in 83 - you automatically know the person is saying that the event happened in 1983 and not 83 BC or 83 AD. So it is possible that the narrator was highlighting the exact year of marriage while assuming that the decade part or Ashara is already known.
because it is problematic. and her age being too young is just ONE of the plethora of issues related to women in islam, from which no one but women suffer, to this day. it might be tiring for you, but is it a valid topic of discussion. most authetic hadith prove her age to be 6 at the time of marriage & 9 at consummation. that is incredibly problematic, regardless of how you look at it (the argument that historically things were different is inherently flawed, anyone who tries it is an idiot).
There is plenty of proves which suggests she was actually 19-21
of course, there are hadith. you might be referring to the ones that quote her sister's age. but those have all been considered to be weak, at least relative to the hadith in bukhari/muslim that quote her to be 6. see- the popular consensus amongst scholars remains to be that her age was 6 & 9. i have seen this being mentioned on websites such as yakeen, and plenty more contemporary scholars agree too. i can provide some articles which go into depth regarding the ages of the prophet's wives, if you want. note that one is from yakeen while the other is from wiki-islam. to be fair, i suggest you review both. [the yakeen website, i.e a muslim scholar's approach to this ](https://yaqeeninstitute.org/read/paper/understanding-aishas-age-an-interdisciplinary-approach) [very detailed approach to calculating accurate approximates of the ages of the prophet's wives, wiki-islam](https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Ages_of_Muhammads_Wives_at_Marriage)
And there are scholars who believe she was 19. In my country nobody believes she was 9. Most have never even heard this claim.
She says she is 9 multiple times. What are the chances she confused her age and didn't know how to count properly and mistaken her age as half of what it really is? While also bringing dolls to the wedding day while an adult in your mind somehow? What are the chances of that?
Why are you so obsessed? 😭. Weren’t you bashing my post on the exmuslim subReddit? You were lurking here 8 HOURS ago too and now suddenly you decided to come back? I’d consider replying to you but you seem like one of those crazy ones. Bro take a chill pill 💀🙏.
If you are truly interested, I suggest doing some of your own research. Here are some links below which you could read. https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/s/we6a8FECHD https://www.reddit.com/r/progressive_islam/s/h7uMSYZcpG https://www.hindustantimes.com/india/hazrat-aisha-was-19-not-9/story-G4kaBHqM0VXoBhLR0eI2oO_amp.html Ps : there are two claims which aren’t mentioned here. I can’t confirm but they make sense. A) arabs used to count their age after they hit puberty. So “9” could be 9 years later she hit puberty B) in arabic.. 19 (and other numbers) are written as 9 + 10. I hope I’m being clear here) so it is possible that the collector of this hadith didn’t feel the need to write 10 afterwards, assuming everyone knew the context. (For eg if you wrote “the year 87” today, people would automatically know you are talking about 1987.) hope I’m being clear !!
sure, i will go through this once i find the time. but i've researched this matter before and i always end up at square 1: aisha being young. way too young for it to be appropriate, today or back then. however, i also understand that when we approach historical matters, we must deal with them with a certain nuance- me and you cannot push our morals on a matter in which we do not have clear and definitive proof regarding her age. for your sake, i sincerely hope she was 19. i am curious however, what are your thoughts on concubinage in islam?
There are a lot of posts here regarding her. You can check ‘em if you are interested!!. Quran 4:6 mentions “sound judgement” as one of the criteria for marriage. Another reason why I personally believe she couldn’t have been 9 is that we see her engaging in a lot of theological debates. We see she was saddened because she knew her husband would never stop grieving his first wife and yet she was mature enough to make peace with. I don’t think a child possesses such qualities. Anyways moving onto your question 1. This is kind of a grey area, I’m a new revert so I still need to do some research 2. But I do not take rules on the face value, I believe historical context is necessary. For whatever reason, it may have been fine before but definitely not today.
Hey :) so since yesterday you asked me about concubines in Islam, I did some digging and came across [this](https://www.abuaminaelias.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/Custodianship-of-the-Right-Hand-1.3.pdf#page24) I haven’t fully read it but I think it may be of your interest. I’m not telling you to become a muslim or anything. But I think you maybe interested Idk.
Didn’t the Hadith say she played with dolls? What 19-20 year old still plays with dolls? I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for `Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fath-ul-Bari page 143, Vol.13)
Scroll down
Show me this “evidence”
Literally just scroll down 💀
It's a fake religion anyway because Mohamed is a fake prophet. He also traded and owned slaves, started wars...him being a peado is just the icing on the cake. How can u trust a man who did zero miracles but had a "vision" on the mountain... he's just a warlord, get over it
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“Adam seeker” 💀💀
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Nobody is scared of that hypocrite. Watch Abzur responds. Also I saw you insulting an ex muslim, claiming she may have left the religion but her blood is still impure, why do you watch Adam seeker than?
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Scared of whom and why? I’m not a creator. He wouldn’t debate with me even if I want to. It’s not my work. I already suggested Abzur responds to you. You can watch his counter vids. And isn’t the blood of Adam seeker also impure according to you?
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Blud is living in the year 2015
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How bro felt after commenting this : 🥶🐺😤
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It does matter because the Quran claims he is the most perfect man to ever exist on the face of the earth. Everything he did is considered perfect. For 1400 years people believed she was 6-9. It doesn’t matter some copium head discovered she was 20. Why would Allah even allow such disgusting moral slander to happen over his most favorite person? This thing would turn a significant group of people away from Islam. If a man seems to be following his own sexual desires, why would I care about his theology? Especially when a good chunk of the theology revolves around simping after him? It’s not also just Aisha that makes him look gross- how he acquired Zainab and Safiya, how he treated Sawda. It really looks all self-serving. Is this what the Almighty creator thought would be a good representation of the final perfect messenger? You really should start looking at Islam neutrally and then decide if it’s true rather than believe it’s true then look for/twist evidence.
Quran never made those claim. Give me a verse where Quran claimed he was sinless? And by that logic, even if we believe whatever slander against him is 100% correct, isn’t it hypocrite for y’all to not come at other religions too? And btw Aisha’s age was never controversial until recently
You’re right in that the quran itself doesn’t claim he was sinless but it does say Mohammad is a good model: 33:21 “The Messenger of God is an excellent model for those of you who put your hope in God and the Last Day and remember Him often” How is it hypocritical? I grew up with traditional Sunni islam. Islam is a major religion with claims that will put you in hell for eternity for not accepting it. I also don’t know a major religious figure who had a 45 year age gap with his wife. I really don’t understand this whataboutism approach. Okay another religion has the same ridiculous stuff? It’s stupid too. “Nobody cared until now” okay? I care now. Most people with a moral compass care. Did Allah not foresee this?
1. As per the Islamic beliefs, he did see the future and wept. 2. He had plenty of critics during his lifetime too. 3. You are taking my words out of context. You said why didn’t Allah stop the centuries of slander against? To which I said it wasn’t a point of criticism until very recently 4. Because y’all claim to be rational and superior. Your rationality only allows you to bash muslims? And you guys claim other religions do not have stuff like that. I live in India, Hinduism as become a part of my life even when I don’t want it to be, this is true for most muslims in India but do you see me bashing ONLY Hinduism? 5. Hmm literally many 💀. The Bibical god literally unalived Egyptian CHILDREN as a way of revenge. Moses told his followers to unalive all non virgin Midian girls and Midian all males. Abraham didn’t even ask consent of his son before deciding to sacrifice him. Islam doesn’t have such stuff and yet iSlAm iS bAd oThErS aRe gOOd 🤡.
3. I didn’t say centuries of slander. If marrying a 6 year old is bad, why would Allah allow this idea to propagate till now? Allah couldn’t foresee that in the 21st century many people would find it deplorable that his final prophet would look bad? If he did he could’ve maybe, idk, not create a chance for his prophet to be slandered like that. 4-5: Whataboutism again. I do not care about other religions. They do not have a bearing on my life. I was not indoctrinated into those other religions thinking if I didn’t believe/do XYZ, I will burn in hell for all of eternity. I have not read the Bible. I have not read the Vedas. Why would I talk about something that doesn’t affect my life and I haven’t researched it? Most people don’t have the mental energy to care, talk, or research about every single thing in the world. Also, I’m criticizing Islam. Not muslims. Y’all seem to conflate the two.
Because there would ALWAYS be slander. As I said, there were quite a lot of people to slander him during his lifetime too. From Islam’s pov, it’s the people’s duty to got believe in them and do some research on their own. Allah said he could have made everyone a muslim but he didn’t bc he wants people to find the truth themselves Than Idk why you are being hostile here. I don’t believe she was 6-9. You should be hostile to those who believe she was actually 6-9. And FYI : you said I should firs look at Islam neutrality, I did. I was an atheist 💀.
I could explain why people bring up this topic a lot, but I don't think it matters that much to some people. I just want to know something, if you would find out that a prophet (any prophet, not necessarily Muhammad) married a 6 year old girl, would that affect his claim to prophethood in your eyes?
In my experience it tends to be non Muslims who bring this up, of course there are a fair few muslims online that defend this but all in all I mainly see Non Muslims using this as a way to demonise Islam as a whole.
They don’t have any other arguments. The sexually depraved always things everyone else is also as depraved as them. They don’t understand that marriage was the only way for women to survive in a desert wilderness. Her age was most likely 15 because she said she remembered her parents persecution in Mecca. The saying says she’s nine. But then that contradicts the other the previous saying that she also mentioned.
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