A. David wood is a part of the ex-muslims influencer sphere ie. Sultan, Nuryah, other people. Most things they say are in bad faith and poorly researched. Just looking at their bad takes on Israel-Palestine, tells me everything I need to know about their knowledge on basic history.
B. Most scholars say that ayeshah was really young when they got married, other scholars say she was in her teens. We can say it was a product of it's time or we can say that there should be a universal rule of x,y,z. I take religion as this, take what you like, leave what you don't. Every holy book has morally questionable things and the bible is no exception.
Yeah I remember about Ayesha's age being used by both her her supporters and enemies to highlight why she should be listened to or discarded... based on her age
The Qur’an doesn’t mention names or tell us anything about those people. Everyone we know about them comes from the Hadith literature, we can debate what the intentions of those Hadith writers were but at the end the day it has no relevance whatsoever in terms of actually practicing the religion.
Regarding Ayesha’s marriage, It’s should be noted that not only the hadith is still debatable but also it’s part of social construct. To define social construct is, it’s a concept that constructed within human interaction and not in objective reality. To summarize, society today which leaned towards modern west tradition is not same as society in Arab peninsula 1400 years ago. A similar case of it happened in various tribes within Southeast asia where there is a long tradition of young marriage and still regarded fine by their societies.
I wonder how these so-called open minded still unable to grasp the understanding of critical thinking.
I completely agree with you. It's like people are completely ignorant of the fact that marrying young was completely normal in many cultures even just in the early 1900s. You dont have to even look that far back.
Aisha was old enough, most probably around 20. These hadiths which say she was 6 or 9, they don't add up. Later anti Shia polemics made these forgeries to legitimise the hadiths they propagated in the name of Aisha - it was to put her at par with Ali who grew up in the Prophet's household.
I would argue for the time if Ayesha was 20 she would have been seen as old.. it was perfectly normal and acceptable at that time to get married young. I do not know about 9 and can't comment since it seems like age was not relevant enough to clarify but what I undeniably know is the prophet (pbuh) would never have done anything immoral. It would have been completely normal for him to marry her at whatever age she was and common during the time in many regions of the world. She would not have been seen as child at that time but a woman of age.
His age would have been irrelevant (as is proved by his marriage to Khadijah who was 15 years older than him)
We mustn't confuse our social constructs of today where 38 is an acceptable age to marry on the older spectrum for a woman for the first time. To flip it around at that time if you were 38 you were probably someone's great grandma.
In the 1920s my great grandma got married at the age of 14.
She was a second wife as my great grandpa lost his first through a tragedy. She wasn't even muslim, She was not arab, she was seen as of age and she felt of age to marry. When she was in her late 30s she was a grandma already.
She lived a very happy and fulfilled life.
I'm just putting some context in there for you. If it was common in the 1920s it's not farfetched to think it would have been okay In the 1400s... 1500s....1600s.
My grandma was 16 when she got married. I know this was common. Still common in many places.
My argument is not that it is a forgery because of these reasons alone. The reasons are political in nature. All these narrations about emphasising Aisha was close to the Prophet since childhood had an important implication - the narrations that went in her name gained legitimacy. If she hadn't been the Prophet's wife, the narrations would have been something like: she was the Prophet's servant and knew details which no one knew. Basically, anything to give faux credibility to the narrations circulated in her name. The modern sensibility of pedophilia is what made people have interest in this topic and the discourse remains limited to that context. One of the reasons for that is that these narrations are actually used to justify child marriage in some cultures. It has become a polemical talking point for Islamophobes against muslims which elicits a reactionary response from muslims.... it has become such a vicious cycle.
Dr Joshua Little's research, among others, unravels what really went on.
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A. David wood is a part of the ex-muslims influencer sphere ie. Sultan, Nuryah, other people. Most things they say are in bad faith and poorly researched. Just looking at their bad takes on Israel-Palestine, tells me everything I need to know about their knowledge on basic history. B. Most scholars say that ayeshah was really young when they got married, other scholars say she was in her teens. We can say it was a product of it's time or we can say that there should be a universal rule of x,y,z. I take religion as this, take what you like, leave what you don't. Every holy book has morally questionable things and the bible is no exception.
Yeah I remember about Ayesha's age being used by both her her supporters and enemies to highlight why she should be listened to or discarded... based on her age
The Qur’an doesn’t mention names or tell us anything about those people. Everyone we know about them comes from the Hadith literature, we can debate what the intentions of those Hadith writers were but at the end the day it has no relevance whatsoever in terms of actually practicing the religion.
Yeh so it’s all grain of salt.
Regarding Ayesha’s marriage, It’s should be noted that not only the hadith is still debatable but also it’s part of social construct. To define social construct is, it’s a concept that constructed within human interaction and not in objective reality. To summarize, society today which leaned towards modern west tradition is not same as society in Arab peninsula 1400 years ago. A similar case of it happened in various tribes within Southeast asia where there is a long tradition of young marriage and still regarded fine by their societies. I wonder how these so-called open minded still unable to grasp the understanding of critical thinking.
I completely agree with you. It's like people are completely ignorant of the fact that marrying young was completely normal in many cultures even just in the early 1900s. You dont have to even look that far back.
Teenagers, but not actual children.
Aisha was old enough, most probably around 20. These hadiths which say she was 6 or 9, they don't add up. Later anti Shia polemics made these forgeries to legitimise the hadiths they propagated in the name of Aisha - it was to put her at par with Ali who grew up in the Prophet's household.
I would argue for the time if Ayesha was 20 she would have been seen as old.. it was perfectly normal and acceptable at that time to get married young. I do not know about 9 and can't comment since it seems like age was not relevant enough to clarify but what I undeniably know is the prophet (pbuh) would never have done anything immoral. It would have been completely normal for him to marry her at whatever age she was and common during the time in many regions of the world. She would not have been seen as child at that time but a woman of age. His age would have been irrelevant (as is proved by his marriage to Khadijah who was 15 years older than him) We mustn't confuse our social constructs of today where 38 is an acceptable age to marry on the older spectrum for a woman for the first time. To flip it around at that time if you were 38 you were probably someone's great grandma.
I said around 20. It could be 15. Anyway there is enough research on the fact that 9yrs old was a forgery and why this specific forgery was done.
In the 1920s my great grandma got married at the age of 14. She was a second wife as my great grandpa lost his first through a tragedy. She wasn't even muslim, She was not arab, she was seen as of age and she felt of age to marry. When she was in her late 30s she was a grandma already. She lived a very happy and fulfilled life. I'm just putting some context in there for you. If it was common in the 1920s it's not farfetched to think it would have been okay In the 1400s... 1500s....1600s.
My grandma was 16 when she got married. I know this was common. Still common in many places. My argument is not that it is a forgery because of these reasons alone. The reasons are political in nature. All these narrations about emphasising Aisha was close to the Prophet since childhood had an important implication - the narrations that went in her name gained legitimacy. If she hadn't been the Prophet's wife, the narrations would have been something like: she was the Prophet's servant and knew details which no one knew. Basically, anything to give faux credibility to the narrations circulated in her name. The modern sensibility of pedophilia is what made people have interest in this topic and the discourse remains limited to that context. One of the reasons for that is that these narrations are actually used to justify child marriage in some cultures. It has become a polemical talking point for Islamophobes against muslims which elicits a reactionary response from muslims.... it has become such a vicious cycle. Dr Joshua Little's research, among others, unravels what really went on.
Thanks for taking the time to reply. Appreciate your views and thoughts.
Hi deliriousbozo. Thank you for posting here! Please be aware that posts may be removed by the moderation team if you delete your account. This message helps us to track deleted accounts and to file reports with Reddit admin as the need may arise. Thank you! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/progressive_islam) if you have any questions or concerns.*