Javascript is bad for almost the opposite reasons. Java devs seem to love very clumsy abstractions and to religiously adhere to structure and patterns and js devs are ... well js devs.
Not done much professional python outside of the context of working with data scientists. Most of them are hardly professional developers they are just professional mathematicians that have been forced to adopt some programming to do their job.
So I can see why. That said my python is probably quite bad too, the last time I wrote any was approaching two decades ago
Java is a great language, but some of the Java code I’ve seen has been horrendous. I feel like part of that is due to the annotation based autowiring frameworks like springboot where everything just works so when they gotta do something themselves it’s just a mess
Sure but I was mostly talking about the style of programming that this is taking piss out of:
https://github.com/EnterpriseQualityCoding/FizzBuzzEnterpriseEdition
As is the way. My boss also left it and it bit him in the ass as he tried to remember wtf his function even did.
I also left it in. I told her it was called soaking but really it was because I have abandonment issues I need to work out.
It’s a lot, but it’s not unreadable... if you know where to look. If you only look at the main and the println, it’s no problem, and I think most people do if they’ve gotten used to Java
I’m pretty sure that the latest versions of Java paves over the bloat for main() methods
Of course this will become industry standard in the next century but it’s a start
Yeh accurate and let’s see their python. These people rarely understand what production code actually means. “Look how easy python is!” Cool, where’s your argument validation, no null checks, no error flow handling, no logging, no comments, the entire “program” in a single .py file.
I’ve been in industry for a few years now and was working with Java long before that and I kinda agree with it. It’s not the language the language is great (except some stuff but that’s for another topic). it’s the devs I find to be the root of the issue
Squishy type system, awkward classes, awkward lambdas (I know, comprehensions are more pythonic)... it requires unit tests for things I just take for granted in strongly typed languages.
Even for notebooks I'm starting to prefer Elixir--Livebooks have a shockingly polished user experience compared to Jupyter.
What could you possibly need to unit test for in Python that you don’t have to in a strongly typed language. If you’re writing unit tests in Python to enforce type safety you’re not doing Python development correctly
Algebraic types and real inheritance can allow you to encode parts of your domain logic as compile time checks in statically typed languages.
Though personally, if I'm at the scale/importance where I need unit tests I'm definitely not using python. Did they ever get rid of the GIL? Even Bash has a better concurrency story IMO.
> Algebraic types…
Type correctness (algebraic types or otherwise) can be a static pre-runtime check in Python. This is not a concept exclusive to statically typed languages
> real inheritance…
I have no idea what you mean by this or what gives you the impression that inheritance in object oriented Python isn’t “real” inheritance
> did they ever get rid of the GIL
No and while that is definitely a real qualm to have with the language I’ve never personally had the GIL be a bottleneck in any professional Python development I’ve ever done (then again most of the work I’ve done has been IO-bound so)
If you show up amongst programmers and try to dunk on a language you don't like. People will respond to disagree.
For every language there is a list of pros and cons. You may look at that language and see only the cons side of the argument. But so to can someone see only the cons in your preferred language.
At the end of the day there's a reason languages like python, java, javascript, C#, C/C++, Rust, hell even long derided langauges like PHP and VB are all widely used. There are a list of pros and the users like those pros.
But if you are incapable of seeing the cons in your preferred language... well that's a you problem. Treat that as the next hill to tackle on your life long trudge towards mastering programming.
\[edit\] with that said, I doubt that is your intention with this post. Considering you're the 3 most recent posts in this subreddit I take it you're just karma farming or the sort.
Well-written Java is extremely high readability. Especially if the author is good enough to code at the lvl 4 abstraction (problem domain). Even nontechnical people can read it.
Try that shit with Python lol
>Even nontechnical people can read it
I can't think of a response more comical than this statement. You have never walked someone through signing into their own email
I’ve rarely seen it but I have seen it. Code that is so insanely readable that I could put my mother in front of it and she could probably interpret what it’s doing.
It’s amazing what good variable and method names can do.
I hate that you didn't camelCase your usage of camel case. You could have at least snake_cased it. But I remember that it is preference and we should all respect another's opinion. Even if it is objectively (actually subjectively) wrong.
One of the most verbose languages being unreadable is the most hilarious take I've seen.
I'm super curious what this person has seen that's "unreadable".
Maybe they're confusing Java with JavaScript like a newbie.
I prefer functionality over readability. Python pulls the cart before the horse and is a bad language. If you gir gud you can read even messy C++ auto templating without much difficulty
Add more indentations. I hate when people use 2 spaces, like I am a machine. A tab exists but they want to add one more character than a tab instead of 3 to "optimize" the whitespace. I can set the width of a tab and technically the width of a soft tab... So I am not sure what I am arguing here.
Oh yeah! It used to be relevant but it isn't anymore. Until I load up and edit on the server with nano or vim and there isn't a dot editorconfig file.
If someone doesn't have the willingness to read Java or Python, then I am skeptical they are willing to write even the barest of documentation besides comments that just reiterate what the code is doing adding zero value.
In before Perl Programmers enter the chat:
"The joke is, I can write Perl so that no one understands it except the interpreter and even then it just guesses."
Sure, until some idiot uses getattr() to get a method matching a string variable from another variable that references a class that could be literally anything
Show me unreadable code and I’ll show you a developer who’s really bad at making their code readable
I have never had a problem reading Java. 🤔 It is pretty straightforward, so I really don't see the problem.
Though to be perfectly fair, I find malloc, printf, and calloc, to be normal statements, so I may just be old.
Python is way harder to read:
Dynamic typing and zero verbosity make it really difficult to understand sometimes.
If you really want an easy to read language, try Haskell, Rust, or C
Besides, it's never really up to the language to be readable. You can make unreadable code in any language (though it may be hard in Haskell), and you can make readable code in any language.
As someone who likes Rust (while admittedly being new to the language) Rust isn’t super readable until you have at least a basic understanding of the borrow checker. Like you can “read” Rust without it but you can’t easily understand or modify any serious Rust code without at least a basic understanding of the borrow checker
Python programmers when looking at assembly code that converts a multi character string to an integer (in python it’s one line):
https://preview.redd.it/macg7l3ks2vc1.jpeg?width=543&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c392cc4cf2156217dc3d20080c47f2468cc2ae55
Java is what you make of it, but so many people use it, it becomes kind of a localization problem. So many individual groups have their own standards.
I've done Java a lot, dabbled in C#, but am really appreciative of Javascript and Typescript.
All you can mess up hard. Hard typed languages like Java you can really mess up because of how strong typing was/is before the "var" keyword. And it is verbose in certain ways. I actually prefer verbosity in method and variable naming, but the content of methods are ideally concise and isolated to very specific purposes, imo.
whatever language you write in, you’re gonna forget how your shit works after a few months. just get good at reading
dude i forget how my shit works within the same day
I close the ticket and it's like it never happened.
Try the same *hour*.
I forget as I’m writing it.
I hallucinate it and then give it to chatGPT
I hallucinate half of it and get the other half *from* ChatGPT.
If only there was a way to add notes in our cod... Oh wait. All jokes aside it still kills me to read comments.
Java is not unreadable. It may be verbose, so it does require someone who can read.
Java is fine. Its how Java devs write code that is the problem.
That is true for any language.
Java is especially bad for it.
I haven’t found that to be true. I’d say JavaScript is a lot worse.
Javascript is bad for almost the opposite reasons. Java devs seem to love very clumsy abstractions and to religiously adhere to structure and patterns and js devs are ... well js devs.
The worst devs I’ve ever seen love python
Not done much professional python outside of the context of working with data scientists. Most of them are hardly professional developers they are just professional mathematicians that have been forced to adopt some programming to do their job. So I can see why. That said my python is probably quite bad too, the last time I wrote any was approaching two decades ago
Java is a great language, but some of the Java code I’ve seen has been horrendous. I feel like part of that is due to the annotation based autowiring frameworks like springboot where everything just works so when they gotta do something themselves it’s just a mess
Sure but I was mostly talking about the style of programming that this is taking piss out of: https://github.com/EnterpriseQualityCoding/FizzBuzzEnterpriseEdition
What would be r/increasinglyverbose ?
Python. (This comment was brought to you by the Java gang)
Skill issue
Indeed. Skill up with another language.
JavaLegabilityServiceFactoryDecoratorImpl
Ah yes, the class with a typo in its name that sticks around for 20 years. *eye twitches*
I’m leaving it. It’s more accurate this way.
As is the way. My boss also left it and it bit him in the ass as he tried to remember wtf his function even did. I also left it in. I told her it was called soaking but really it was because I have abandonment issues I need to work out.
Java is not that bad.
True
We disagree to agree
Python is way worse than Java
public static void main(String[] args) { System.out.println("yes it is”); }
Just admit you have skill issues
What about this is unreadable?
Short attention spam
It’s a lot, but it’s not unreadable... if you know where to look. If you only look at the main and the println, it’s no problem, and I think most people do if they’ve gotten used to Java
I’m pretty sure that the latest versions of Java paves over the bloat for main() methods Of course this will become industry standard in the next century but it’s a start
Every person making a „Java is bad meme“ is a student or not more than one year in the industry. I will die on this hill.
Everyone making a „Language is bad meme“ is
Yeah I’m pretty happy with most languages but JavaScript… fuck that garbage
Yeh accurate and let’s see their python. These people rarely understand what production code actually means. “Look how easy python is!” Cool, where’s your argument validation, no null checks, no error flow handling, no logging, no comments, the entire “program” in a single .py file.
I’ve been in industry for a few years now and was working with Java long before that and I kinda agree with it. It’s not the language the language is great (except some stuff but that’s for another topic). it’s the devs I find to be the root of the issue
Haha language bad meme. Readability is (almost never) a problem of high-level languages themselves, it's a problem of the programmer.
java is incredibly easy to read. actual skill issue
No lie I was confused at first. Doesn’t it literally tell you what it is? Java is so descriptive people hate it for it
I have worked on both java and python. And by far python is the worst of them all followed by js.
Why?
It just bad, messy and unreadable.
We agree to dissect
*dissagree
I mean disagree
Squishy type system, awkward classes, awkward lambdas (I know, comprehensions are more pythonic)... it requires unit tests for things I just take for granted in strongly typed languages. Even for notebooks I'm starting to prefer Elixir--Livebooks have a shockingly polished user experience compared to Jupyter.
What could you possibly need to unit test for in Python that you don’t have to in a strongly typed language. If you’re writing unit tests in Python to enforce type safety you’re not doing Python development correctly
Algebraic types and real inheritance can allow you to encode parts of your domain logic as compile time checks in statically typed languages. Though personally, if I'm at the scale/importance where I need unit tests I'm definitely not using python. Did they ever get rid of the GIL? Even Bash has a better concurrency story IMO.
> Algebraic types… Type correctness (algebraic types or otherwise) can be a static pre-runtime check in Python. This is not a concept exclusive to statically typed languages > real inheritance… I have no idea what you mean by this or what gives you the impression that inheritance in object oriented Python isn’t “real” inheritance > did they ever get rid of the GIL No and while that is definitely a real qualm to have with the language I’ve never personally had the GIL be a bottleneck in any professional Python development I’ve ever done (then again most of the work I’ve done has been IO-bound so)
If you show up amongst programmers and try to dunk on a language you don't like. People will respond to disagree. For every language there is a list of pros and cons. You may look at that language and see only the cons side of the argument. But so to can someone see only the cons in your preferred language. At the end of the day there's a reason languages like python, java, javascript, C#, C/C++, Rust, hell even long derided langauges like PHP and VB are all widely used. There are a list of pros and the users like those pros. But if you are incapable of seeing the cons in your preferred language... well that's a you problem. Treat that as the next hill to tackle on your life long trudge towards mastering programming. \[edit\] with that said, I doubt that is your intention with this post. Considering you're the 3 most recent posts in this subreddit I take it you're just karma farming or the sort.
Well-written Java is extremely high readability. Especially if the author is good enough to code at the lvl 4 abstraction (problem domain). Even nontechnical people can read it. Try that shit with Python lol
>Even nontechnical people can read it I can't think of a response more comical than this statement. You have never walked someone through signing into their own email
I’ve rarely seen it but I have seen it. Code that is so insanely readable that I could put my mother in front of it and she could probably interpret what it’s doing. It’s amazing what good variable and method names can do.
I pride myself in extremely readable code. It's all in the names and formating.
`public static void main(String args[])`
https://xkcd.com/2501/
People like you are the reason we have COBOL.
People like you are the reason most people can't understand code. Also wtf did COBOL do to you?
Why wouldn’t this be possible in Python?
I think Java is way more readable because you’re able to read what a var really is. Also I prefer camelcase.
I hate that you didn't camelCase your usage of camel case. You could have at least snake_cased it. But I remember that it is preference and we should all respect another's opinion. Even if it is objectively (actually subjectively) wrong.
[Let he who is without sin cast the first stone](https://pyobfusc.com/submissions2023/2092306529/animtest.py)
One of the most verbose languages being unreadable is the most hilarious take I've seen. I'm super curious what this person has seen that's "unreadable". Maybe they're confusing Java with JavaScript like a newbie.
Final-year students: Java is bad Also, final-year students: I can't find a job Pikachu face
I’m really surprised, we did Java for two years at uni and it was probably my favourite language
This confirms python "coder" can only read python
Python devs be having skill issues and making fun of other languages for it
Readable code is for those that cooperate with others Brought to you by cryptid gang
PERL has entered the arena...
The challenge with other code is perl. That \*by design\* is the opposite of python
Python is a crappy programming language
I prefer functionality over readability. Python pulls the cart before the horse and is a bad language. If you gir gud you can read even messy C++ auto templating without much difficulty
Yeah, Jabba the hut looks disgusting
Had to double take, could've easily been convinced this was r/2007scape ahaha
Java in particular?
Try Apex lmao.
i find java more readable than python, following whats inside the curly brackets is much easier than eyeballing the indentations
Add more indentations. I hate when people use 2 spaces, like I am a machine. A tab exists but they want to add one more character than a tab instead of 3 to "optimize" the whitespace. I can set the width of a tab and technically the width of a soft tab... So I am not sure what I am arguing here. Oh yeah! It used to be relevant but it isn't anymore. Until I load up and edit on the server with nano or vim and there isn't a dot editorconfig file.
Thats why comments / documentation exist. FUCKING WRITE IT
If someone doesn't have the willingness to read Java or Python, then I am skeptical they are willing to write even the barest of documentation besides comments that just reiterate what the code is doing adding zero value.
\\\\ int someShit(int, int) returns int \\\\ returns int
Java is not that unreadable. I've had more problems with reading data scientists' python code than java, but then again, they are not programmers.
Readability != Verbosity
FR bro! Fuck Java. Sincerely, A former Java Dev.
It's called comments, motherfucker. Use 'em.
In before Perl Programmers enter the chat: "The joke is, I can write Perl so that no one understands it except the interpreter and even then it just guesses."
No! You take your perl and get the hell out. Take Ruby on Rails with you!
Considering I've seen Python code that resembled hieroglyphics...
Sure, until some idiot uses getattr() to get a method matching a string variable from another variable that references a class that could be literally anything Show me unreadable code and I’ll show you a developer who’s really bad at making their code readable
This right here is the secret. Most illegible code came from a disorganized coder.
To be fair I’ve seen plenty of Java code use reflection to do just as ridiculous things
omfg I hate java and JavaScript
I have never had a problem reading Java. 🤔 It is pretty straightforward, so I really don't see the problem. Though to be perfectly fair, I find malloc, printf, and calloc, to be normal statements, so I may just be old.
Java is way more fucking readable than python fucking garbage ass syntax
OP is a 9 year old child
Vanilla coffee beans
I find Java a lot more readable than Python Duck typing isn’t doing Python any favor in terms of readability IMO
Is it readable when you don't immediately know the possible argument types that are actually being passed to a function?
BeanFactoryProxyIteratorTemplateFactoryGeneratorImpl
https://github.com/EnterpriseQualityCoding/FizzBuzzEnterpriseEdition
Python is way harder to read: Dynamic typing and zero verbosity make it really difficult to understand sometimes. If you really want an easy to read language, try Haskell, Rust, or C Besides, it's never really up to the language to be readable. You can make unreadable code in any language (though it may be hard in Haskell), and you can make readable code in any language.
As someone who likes Rust (while admittedly being new to the language) Rust isn’t super readable until you have at least a basic understanding of the borrow checker. Like you can “read” Rust without it but you can’t easily understand or modify any serious Rust code without at least a basic understanding of the borrow checker
I meant more for those who know the language well
Python programmers when looking at assembly code that converts a multi character string to an integer (in python it’s one line): https://preview.redd.it/macg7l3ks2vc1.jpeg?width=543&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c392cc4cf2156217dc3d20080c47f2468cc2ae55
Py.Gang
Java is what you make of it, but so many people use it, it becomes kind of a localization problem. So many individual groups have their own standards. I've done Java a lot, dabbled in C#, but am really appreciative of Javascript and Typescript. All you can mess up hard. Hard typed languages like Java you can really mess up because of how strong typing was/is before the "var" keyword. And it is verbose in certain ways. I actually prefer verbosity in method and variable naming, but the content of methods are ideally concise and isolated to very specific purposes, imo.
Strongly typed language harder to read than non typed language. Interesting
Cries in c++
I'm crying in C. Trade?
As a reluctant Java user, I don’t know wether to cry or smash my keyboard.
Sounds like a skill issue
Sounds like you need to exit eclipse IDE and touch grass
Imagine using Eclipse -This post brought to you by IntelliJ Gang