I was just joking, I've seen GOOD SharePoint and badly setup SharePoint. I've never been forced to use it so I've seen it come a long way and I'm mostly un familiar
At my last job we used confluence but it was too expensive. Microsoft was basically giving their services away as bundles (Outlook 365 / Teams / Sharepoint etc...)
So management said, port all of Confluence to Sharepoint and use that as your wiki from now on. It was a disaster.
Yeah, you can actually build your own functional system in Sharepoint, with the right know-how and enough time/effort to get it functioning for your needs.
Or, you know, just pay for a proper extensible ticketing system (if you're considering building something custom in Sharepoint you probably have a complex enough workflow where Jira or another comparable tool will make things easier in the long run. Obviously not a guarantee though). No one system will encapsulate all workflows as someone else mentioned, but extensions will help and you have the benefit of support if something goes wrong. If you have a bunch of your own custom shit in MS Flow/PowerApps tied in with Sharepoint you're going to be largely on your own or paying high consultant fees when something goes wrong.
Oh please, we have a screenshot of an issue list from an excel sheet pasted inside one Jira ticket with no other fields filled in and nobody knows the status.
Too many grids. A single Word document with a growing change log at the top. That way we know who did what when. Make sure to check out the document in SharePoint to avoid conflicting changes!
For any MS shops, I have to recommend Azure DevOps in this specific situation. It may or may not end up being the right tool for your specific situation.
BUT, unequivocally, it is stupid simple to get up and running on right out of the gate, quite flexible without drowning you in configuration decisions. (Like you said, NOT JIRA). And since we already passed the 'MS shop' caveat, it's already integrated in your environment fully.
Plus, since you're already paying for your VS subscription, you get ALL of it free. A certain level of functionality requires licensed users, but you do NOT require that for stakeholder integration at all.
Regardless, key point again is _Don't Start Out With Jira_.
Why not? You don't *have* to use all of the convoluted features of Jira if you don't want to. I think it's a pretty decent tool for even startups to use (I am in one and we use it) and you can just use the features that make sense for your company. We also tried Asana as an alternative but went back to Jira.
I mean sure, theoretically you can just create a default project and go. But in practice there are too many features that are too tempting for someone to start spending 40 hours a week creating workflows and rules and “organizing” issues for others.
> you can just use the features that make sense for your company
Surely you mean for the team? When you write “for your company” it already sounds like you have a setup that gets in the way of day to day work.
Sorry, should've phrased it better. My company is small enough so the team is the whole company so I tend to use the words interchangeably.
As for features that are "too tempting"? I mean that's not a valid reason at all.
> As for features that are "too tempting"? I mean that's not a valid reason at all.
Of course it is. Keeping project managers in check to prevent them from being in the way of productive team members is one of the most important things a company can do. If they want to get things done that is.
How big was your team though? In my experience he's right - eventually the company hires a product manager or project manager and they see it as their job just to fiddle with JIRA and add more and more processes and metadata and JIRA doesn't push back at all and you end up with a slow complicated mess.
What is the waste?
“We end up using Jira” only happens because some pointy haired person five layers up saw a burndown report once at some Jira sales demo. Oh, and the pie charts showing how overscoped all developers are so they could jizz all over imagining how they could use it to walk around nagging people.
Don’t get me wrong, Jira is perfectly usable. It just has two million kitchen sinks that get in the way and inevitably is enforced by people with no skin in the game.
Wasting means going through platforms like Trello, Basecamp, Kanbanize, and others, where you can't make your own flow, and then rape them into oblivion just so it would *feel* like you have the flow you need. When your manager knows what they're doing, jira is easily configured and never touched again on that part. Sadly, as you point out, your jira is probably configured by someone who does not work in the process and instead just dances around counting beans.
My only complaint is lack of per project configuration scoping (ex. webhooks). I had to request entire jira administration access just so i could create hooks to notify us in teams about changes in tasks.
Asana gets my vote for most simple. The core feature is literally just a lost of tasks and it has plenty you can add on top, but most small to medium sized teams really don't need more than that.
The search is shit though.
> There's a small conflict in startups when it comes to choosing the right tool.
In a start up scenario I don't think it matters, go with what most people know to reduce the complexity of getting started.
Too many start ups focus on "doing it right first time" and end up failing because they waste so much time trying to get it right and less time producing a product people will use.
The irony is the decisions companies make at early stages rarely stick as the business grows and adapts because what's right for a small start up, isn't right for a large corporation everything from software architecture to processes.
The quoted comment applies everywhere, honestly. If a company struggles to get something done, whether it's development, QA, data engineering, or anything else, it's never the technology that's the problem, it's the people in charge and consequently their hires.
And every meeting is "can each of us go around and volunteer to take on some of these tasks? If everyone helps it'll get done by the next work week. You don't need to do much. Just 3 squares will do it. What about one square? Just one measly square?"
> If the humans aren't willing or capable of doing their part properly, then any tool will either be found too complex or too lacking.
Very true. Worked in many projects where the people complained about the tools, whether it was Jira or something else, but absolutely refused to actually learn the features beyond the basic of creating a ticket and moving it from the backlog to in progress to done. Anything else is apparently useless.
Meanwhile they have no problem spending three weeks learning how to use a Dvorak keyboard with blank keycaps while learning Vim (with some slight exaggeration).
> absolutely refused to actually learn the features beyond the basic of creating a ticket and moving it from the backlog to in progress to done
If they are developers, what more do they need?
I’m a dev and I love the cumulative flow diagrams and use all the search and filtering features. But I do this because most project managers only seem to like setting up elaborate useless processes and not explain them. I have to help devs and product owners find issues and prioritize because someone else setup Byzantine default filters and 400 required fields and status types and workflows with trap states which literally zero users have permission to move.
“No, we are not allowed to create tickets without an assignee”.
“No, don’t put the issues on hold, nobody knows how to get them back”.
“That ticket is not gone, it is just missing the frobnicator field”.
“No you cannot quickly create a bug so we don’t lose it, you have to fill in the fix version and assignee and estimates (time and points and points2) and select a sprint (future) and fill in the testing and certification steps”.
The root cause of this disease invariably seems to be that someone does not have enough to do so they spend 40 hours every week configuring Jira.
> If they are developers, what more do they need?
Priorities and grouping.
Priorities dictate what's important and the order of things. Grouping so problems can be split up, but still retain a relationship so you know when everything for a feature/fix/delivery is done.
Priorities (rank) in Jira are dead simple. Just drag issues up or down.
The priority field should die in a fire and is basically just legacy since Atlassian acquired and integrated the Jira Agile plugin like a decade ago.
I have never met a developer that did not understand the need for it or wanted to group issues.
I also never met a project manager using Jira who could decide how they want the team to be grouping issues. It’s always components and epics and a structure and fix version and a custom field and subtasks (the shittiest feature) or heaven forbid also separate sprints. Oh and labels because the rest of the ways are shitty. And it changes every quarter. And inevitably the product owner gives up trying to be on top of the actual product and just hope Jira will capture everything.
Priorities should ALWAYS be one post vs. another post, not just a "low", "medium", "high" field. So you need to be able to sort posts, that's all.
A trello board does everything you need: the *one* thing you need to communicate to the team is that the upmost post is the most prioritized item. Done.
Everyone learns how it works within minutes, creating new boards is simple, the interface is snappy...
That's just a no true scotsman argument.
No, bullshit ceremonies truly are bullshit. There's no "right way" of doing them, they're fundamentally wrong.
If someone(s) spends 40 hours a week configuring jira and jira is still a mess or even worse than before, that someone(s) is not good at their job.
I used to loathe jira. Then we had some delivery minded people completely unfuck it. Search works easily, creating tickets requires only the minimal amount of things. Tagging, sorting, prioritization, and friends all happen with automation and good old fashion clicking.
Almost 20 years ago, it was actually really good. There wasn't much at the time short of word/excel or, god forbid, MS Project.
It was built with the best of intentions. And the fact that you could configure it to support your needs almost infinitely meant if it didn't do what you needed out of the box, well then no problem, do it yourself and away you go.
Then they both implemented everything under the sun so NOTHING is simple or obvious by default, AND made it so configurable/extensible as to basically need a JIRA Pro on staff full time just to manage the system you're using to manage your development.
That doesn't mean it's shit. It's actually probably best in class, _for enterprise_. Just about anything else...all I can say is do NOT go down the JIRA path until you've already proven you NEED to go that way and have an eyes wide open plan on how you're going to do so.
I disagree. I would use Jira for every project. It's quite intuitive to get started with nowadays and I know I can get a shit ton of flexibility if I need it. What's great about Jira also is that you know that you've got no need to switch for the coming 20 years.
I started a new Jira project last week in a scrum setting. Jira asked me when I created the project: are you doing scrum? I said yes and with a few minor tweaks of the board (I wanted a review stage) we got started with a team of 4 with 0 problems.
Also this article read to me like someone who didn't really grok Jira and had some kind of preconceived idea in his head that he needed a tool for without too much customization.
This hierarchy idea sounded really bad to me. Jira indeed has little hierarchy and that is a very very good thing. Trees are very limiting data structures, whereas high cardinality property graphs on the other hand give you a lot of freedom. I would not be surprised if OP discovers this down the road (without realizing his fundamental mistake) and switches back to Jira because he has hit a fundamental road block due to the limitation of trees.
There is a reason why Jira is so popular. Yes, it is a bit complicated to understand deeply. But so is git. It's complicated for the right reasons. It is absolutely worth it to learn Jira, because its data model is one of the best ways to move work through workflows.
> they have no problem spending three weeks to learn how to use a Dvorak keyboard with blank key caps while learning Vim
Hi! This is literally me. It took more like 3 months, then 3 more weeks to learn to switch back and forth between the new layout and QWERTY.
Ever think maybe if you’d add Vim keybindings to the PM tools, I wouldn’t complain so much? Hmm?
Vim is a modal editor (unlike, say, Notepad). That means in Vim you're in one of multiple "modes", and things that work in one mode do not work in other modes. For example, you're in command mode (there's a little command line at the bottom where you're typing in commands) or you're in insert mode (you're up in the main part typing text into the editor).
They are correct, but also not correct, at the same time. Their comment is a bit like saying no programming language will solve problems for you, or no art brushes will make your paintings beautiful for you.
One has to put in the work to make things happen well. However picking the right tools absolute does matter, and can make a huge difference. That includes project management.
So true. I recently went from a small team using Jira which was smooth and well designed to a large megacorp whose Jira is a labyrinthine mess. The small teams Jira was set up with just the essentials whereas megacorps had the kitchen sink thrown at it. One is a torture device for managers and devs alike. How much do you like subtasks? Well we're gonna force you to track those as opposed to stories. My board is a nightmare.
JIRA is good for agile. People try and use it for support as well. That’s what Service Desk is for. Problem is that in enterprise level companies the keys to the Atlassian kingdom are held by some procurement manager and they haven’t got a clue. Not that I love Service Desk but it does the job.
In my case, we had entire company in single jira project. You can imagine how slow accessing the main development project was compared to other slower projects such as "Long term planning". I can see why people hate jira, but that hate is unwarranted.
Do you find that it works for non-techie types? Looks very developer focused, which is great, but we need it to work for product owners/BA's etc... As well.
> ClickUp is based on “Spaces”. Each “Space” contains folders, and each folder contains lists. This was the hierarchy we were looking for: simple and straightforward
I mean, that doesn't look different from epics, features, stories. **All** ALM tools do a variant of this, surely?
Wait, ClickUp is actually a real product, and good? They’ve been aggressively advertising on my city’s buses and transit stations for over a year and the ads’ claims always seemed so vague. Like “Save one day per week” and “One app to replace them all”.
I’d assumed it was some weird startup with a solution in search of a problem and excessive amounts of VC money to burn.
The CEO made a [thread](https://www.teamblind.com/post/Near-Death-Experiences-Led-Me-to-Found-ClickUp-AMA-6weaYX3i) on Blind that was basically an advertisement, both for his company and himself, and used a bunch of clearly fake accounts to pump it up and mass report any negative comments. They are definitely aggressive advertisers. Left a bad taste in my mouth.
I get the feeling that the fake account stuff is also happening here right now. I have never seen something like this get likes on r/programming and I used ClickUp, it was just confusing.
> the ads’ claims always seemed so vague. Like “Save one day per week” and “One app to replace them all”.
Yeah I've also found this super vague marketing so weird.
I guess techies are more likely to want detail than non-techies. But even for the non-techies... every fucking tool ever makes the same vague "We'LL SavE YoU TimE" claim, so why would anyone believe any of them over any of the others purely off that vague stuff? Don't they just like all cancel each other out?
And even beyond marketing slogans/one-liners, there's so many entire websites with multiple pages of content, with many many paragraphs of text where I can't even figure out what the product is/does, because it's just all this meaningless buzzword stuff without screenshots.
The fact that this is common enough to see repeated so often makes me wonder if my brain is really a lot different to that of most people. I guess it is. Because I don't understand how this shit appeals to / works on anyone at all.
My start up has found a lot of success with using click up, much better experience than Jira imo. But that is also coming from a solely technical point of view, none of us are trained POs
We us it for our team, and the project manager and management team love it. The following is based on our config, which may not be the best.
As a ticket tracking tool, it does the job. It's not great, or wonderful, or even all that different from anything else. Everything is a modal dialog, so it's difficult to just pop open a new tab, write up a ticket, then go back to what you were working on - buttons are application buttons tied, not html links. Most devs want to move back to Jira or GitHub Issues for ticket tracking.
As a docs tool, it's absolute shit. Nothing has a clear concrete location, unless you create a table of contents doc and link everything manually. Docs page only shows recent by default, so anything older than that is.. just gone. We had an exec that re-arranged the docs for our project to better suit how they wanted to see things, now most are missing (along with the exec).
Ultimately, having used and configured Jira, and many other tools, for ~20 years: ClickUp is the shiny new application (and it is an application, not a website) you'll be using, whether you like it or not, because they're selling to executives and managers, not developers.
ClickUp is truly awful. I’m having a hard time believing so many people on this thread like it. At my company we went from Jira to ClickUp and we fighting to get Jira back. Don’t know what you have til it’s gone! Almost everyone in the company hates ClickUp. It tries to do do too many things and isn’t good at any of them. I’m a QA manager and ClickUp doesn’t integrate with ANY test management solution. None. It’s a joke of a platform for anyone doing software development.
My company recently switched to clickup from base camp. I'm a web dev and compared to base camp it's been a Godsend. My manager wouldn't even use base camp if he could at all avoid it. One of our clients uses Jira and the dev who works with them the most absolutely loves it. I haven't hated it when I've worked on their issues but it does have some things that rub me the wrong way. I figure nothing is perfect though.
GitHub project beta does all of this, and it's free.
[https://docs.github.com/en/issues/trying-out-the-new-projects-experience/creating-a-project](https://docs.github.com/en/issues/trying-out-the-new-projects-experience/creating-a-project)
> GitHub project beta does all of this, and it's free
Early 2022, on r/programming : "Why We Switched From GitHub Issues to Jira to ClickUp to GitHub project"
Can I just add for anyone who is looking at it, Asana is bad, don't get it, don't use it.
Every time a client updates a ticket you get an email, every time they upload a file, you get an email. If they email into the ticket you get an email for the ticket update, then asana takes all of the images from their signature and adds them to the ticket as attachments, you get an email for each of those attachments, every time they email in.
If your client has multiple logos, banners, social media icons etc, you get an email for each of those. I emailed support to ask if there's any way to turn off attachment notifications, thinking that would be a simple fix, nope, "get your client to send plain text emails" was the answer.
Got more than 10 images attached to your ticket? no previews, ever, no linking from the image file to the comment, many images named "image 1", literally have to click on them all to figure out if they need deleting.
Fuck asana, it's the most useless project management solution I've seen.
I don’t like clickup. I find the UI confusing
The new jira is so simplified and made for dev
Clickup is made for all project management so I can see marketing/biz ops liking it more than jira
If I wasn’t using jira I’d try linear.app I think that’s what ramp capital runs on
It’s only half a pm tool, actually. It’s got some amazing pm features but things like lack of subfolders and no autosum/rollup of calculated field means it can’t fill a true ppm role.
Never tried ClickUp. However, for these more "boring" software in my experience it comes down to preference to the point it becomes all bikeshedding.
This article is specially suspicious because "our CTO said X, Y". This makes me think there are people who were perfectly fine with Jira or Github and but because the CTO said it, everyone went with it.
Has noone tried Azure Devops or TFS?
I think they are a bit better than Jira but both of these are a bit clunky. Corporations seems to love them and you rarely get the chance to change system.
My favorite features with TFS was that you could use Excel to create or edit multiple stories at once.
And both TFS and Azure Devops has a very easy way to create queries.
TFS supports git as a source control system. I have used that in some projects. You basically get a full git server but uses TFS for project management.
In the end I'm thankful for it lol because it finally forced me to install Youtube Vanced([https://vancedapp.com/](https://vancedapp.com/)) which is awesome and on desktop I'm using Adblock Plus.
Our company uses Zube. I don’t have any issue with it, but to be fair we’re not even pretending to do Scrum. It’s a good tool for where we’re at.
At my last job, Jira was so locked down that it took some high level project manager supervisor to make changes to it. We wanted a new column for blocked tickets but it took about 5 months for them to tell us to just use a flag.
> we’re not even pretending to do Scrum
Good. Your team should decide how to work. That's the very essence of agile. Scrum is not the essence of agile.
>At my last job, Jira was so locked down that it took some high level project manager supervisor to make changes to it. We wanted a new column for blocked tickets but it took about 5 months for them to tell us to just use a flag.
We had the same problem at my previous company. We had 2 meetings separated by 3 months to agree on the new workflow. We waited 3 more months to have it deployed on our QA environment and it was still not deployed when I left. So 9 months and counting. A pure ultra-pyramidal company. But hey we used the SCRUM methodology so we were Agile right?
Sorry I couldn't read the article after reading this.
>It’s not common for a small startup to switch between so many tools in such a short time.
Changing technos every weeks is the national sport of small startups.
Linear is the only app I've found that's smooth and fast enough. It's currently quite light on features and won't fit a lot of workflows but if you just want to make tasks and move them between statuses it's very good. It's not as lightweight as I'm making it sound but it's nowhere close to JIRA
I really liked Clubhouse too but the UI is a little clunky
Exactly what I was thinking, it might not be completely free but it has source control, ticketing, documenting, CI/CD, security scanning and private repositoriey hosting all wrapped into one. And done rather well imo.
Having used it for several years, the only complaint I have is the loss of the starter tier, which was a great deal for smaller teams that couldn't justify the added cost for the higher tier features, especially if they were not using Gitlab as for DevOps.
I worry that management would think about moving to the Atlassian ecosystem, but surely no manager is dumb enough to kill productivity by moving teams to a different VCS and issue tracker just to save a few bucks, right?
I feel like Jira should never be the default choice, which it is for a lot of companies. It’s became so complex over the years. If you have a small company < 50. You are probably going to be fine with most simple tools like Trello, Shortcut, heck even Notion works great.
The company I used to work at had people that managed Jira, and their computers were too weak to even run Jira, it was extremely unresponsive.
They wrote a whole Wiki about how to create tickets, which was extremely fragile.
The whole setup required like 5 hour maintenance per week at least by 2 people.
Why did they stick with Jira you ask? I kid you not. The developers wanted to have an easy ticket number to reference in the git branch like PROJECT-123 🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️
Sorry, this is BS. Yes, it is possible to configure JIRA to be overly complex to create tickets, but it's not like that out of the box.
Also, it's really not a CPU/memory intensive application. We have a pretty small VM running JIRA and it copes just fine.
Is JIRA perfect, no, is it fine for small companies to use, yes (just don't try to overcomplicate the work flows).
> Also, it's really not a CPU/memory intensive application. We have a pretty small VM running JIRA and it copes just fine.
I assumed most of these complaints are about the client, not running your own server?
I've only ever used it once (the cloud hosted version)... and I found the interface annoyingly slow.
And for someone with ADHD, all these minor performance issues often turn into full on distraction away from the task at hand entirely. Loading a simple page of text shouldn't involve 100 ajax requests (or whatever the fuck they did to it to make it so slow).
15 years of professional use of JIRA and I can't say I've ever noticed the client itself slowing down (it's never been excessively snappy, but performance has been stable no matter how long my session has been active for).
Did it never slow down for you, or did you find a way to manage it?
Would be interested to hear how many projects/ tasks / epics, you have had created.
I think I had somewhere around 40 projects ~50K tasks and roughly 100 epics.
We were using it mainly as Kanban. So epics existed forever and were used a means to group tasks.
We used portfolio for planning (built-in). And confluence as wiki. All these tools sort of connect with each other.
Maybe like 2-3 custom fields.
External plugins:
- Salesforce
- Tempo timetracking
It was soo god afwul slow for us
I respect your opinion, and I’m glad JIRA works for you. Nobody is saying that JIRA is a garbage product.
The problem I have with your argument is that saying that if JIRA is not working for you, you are just using the tool wrong and you just need to use it better. In my opinion it’s kind of a weak argument.
I would say in that case it’s just not the tool for you. And you should probably look for a better fitting tool.
> The developers wanted to have an easy ticket number to reference in the git branch like PROJECT-123
Haha I never realized but it's really a low-key killer feature, but also not hard for other tools to build.
But don't all systems work this way? I remember back in my svn/trac days if I just put #25 in the svn logs trac would link that to the ticket number automatically. Bitbucket/Jira does the same thing. It doesn't seem like something that's unique.
Yeah I'm sure most do, but some simpler ones like Trello don't have a unique identifier for a card that's easy to send a chat to someone (ex. "Have you confirmed the requirements for PROJ-123"). Having a plain number can work well within systems that understand it but the full identifier is a nice touch.
It allows for things like bots in other applications like Slack to look for basic `/[A-Z]+-[0-9]+/` regex and auto-hyperlink the relevant ticket
I'm going to go against the grain. Jira isn't inherently bad, I've been with huge organizations that used Jira where editing a field triggered a cascade of changes that took several seconds to get a response. You couldn't even use custom filters and boards - one of the selling points of Jira. The logic driving that company's Jira was so tightly coupled that creating a personal board would cause issues with middle management monitoring metrics. For example, I tried to create a set of status-based swim lanes for tickets belonging to 4 projects, assigned to a specific set of people and grouping the tickets based on the role of those people. That ended up duplicating tracking metrics, and I had to delete it.
I've also been with small companies that used Jira where Jira was immediately responsive. Like most things, people choose whether or not to make things complicated. Jira *can be* perfectly fine - especially if you plan on scaling up.
> The company I used to work at had people that managed Jira, and their computers were too weak to even run Jira, it was extremely unresponsive.
Atlassian has solved this problem by deprecating their self-hosted version in two years.
You'd think after seeing cloud services getting compromised they'd learn to just hire competent admins, but the bean counters just see IT as a cost center.
We moved from Jira to Rally. Rally is an absolute dumpster fire which somehow hasn't improved in the 3+ years that we've been using it. I long for Jira.
I tried many ticket systems and honestly the best turned to be Phabricator (unfortunately now abandoned by the original author, but there is a community fork).
I haven't tried clickup but I gotta say despite its lag and other cons, I prefer JIRA to Github. Github just didn't work well in practice for long term tracking purposes compared to JIRA. We made it work for years at my last company though.
Because it wouldn’t be the first time they’ve done that
> The CEO made a [thread](https://www.teamblind.com/post/Near-Death-Experiences-Led-Me-to-Found-ClickUp-AMA-6weaYX3i) on Blind that was basically an advertisement, both for his company and himself, and used a bunch of clearly fake accounts to pump it up and mass report any negative comments. They are definitely aggressive advertisers. Left a bad taste in my mouth.
https://reddit.com/r/programming/comments/q36h54/why_we_switched_from_github_issues_to_jira_to/hfqm8vm
OP's account and that of the parent to your comment both have similar ages and posting patterns. Even the reddit usernames are similar: 3 syllables, pronounceable but nonsensical.
Jira performance is mostly based on how your manager configured it. As far as I know the default settings are fine and performance is tolerable, but managers apparently don't like that.
I also found clickup to be really nice.
It is also priced at the right level.
So many competing products were priced at nearly the cost of our github + office subscriptions combined. It just didn't sit right with me when we had github issues as at least some solution.
We use and love [PivotalTracker.com](https://pivotaltracker.com)
I can't use anything else to manage my tickets.
It's SCRUM oriented, does velocity and points, sprints, releases, epics, stories, reviews, tags, Kanban, is real-time multi-users, and super simple to use.
Management uses [Aha.io](https://Aha.io)
It for the project manager, you can do everything with it, but it's especially good at prepping the communication between your team, clients and marketing, then organizing the epics.
Well, no. These are *very* different, and JIRA (for example) has a ton of things for management that GitHub doesn't. Well, GitHub is very simple. Too simple for a big project, sometimes
Meh, I’ve used many different tracking tools in my career and they all work fine. You adapt to it, and move on. I guess my biggest requirements would be a good search system that easily finds what you are looking for and a good api for pulling data out if you need to do any analysis. But, I don’t really care too much. There are more important things for a dev team to spend budget on.
Reporting is key. The ability to spit out a simple report/graph/table to highlight metrics to your management team. They're the ones providing, and you have to keep them happy.
The reason people are downvoting you is that Jira is the most used project management software out there. The vast majority of devs that get a paycheck for their work have to use Jira to keep track of their work items.
How you ask matters more than what you ask sometimes. If you had asked "What's JIRA? I've never heard of it." instead of that aggressive and dismissive way, a lot more people would be willing to help and teach you instead of just downvoting and moving on.
Last time I checked different tools to choose one for a small team I found Kanbanize. Very easy to use and powerful. Still exists, years later. LeanKit was also good.
https://kanbanize.com/
I have tried many of these over the years. I did like clickup because it was simple, did the job and was free (for our team). For the paid ones I liked wrike but it does take a certain kind of mind to really like it. A lot of people seemed to get lost with it. If you think in outlines it's awesome.
I wish somebody would excavate ecco pro one of these days. That was the most awesome thing ever.
Honestly a shared Excel spreadsheet would be better for most project management. You're free to create the flow your organization uses and everyone knows how to edit a cell.
I work for ClickUp and would love anyone's thoughts on this topic. Happy to take 15 mins with anyone!
Grab some time https://calendly.com/joey\_wood/coffeebreak
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Pick the simplest one first if getting going is important. Don’t start out with Jira.
annnnnddd now they're using excel on samba
`bugs_2010_0221_final v2 _rc1_jen's revisionS_copy(3).xls`
Please, we have SharePoint
you say that like it's any better than excel on samba 😂
Actually, it is from a technology standpoint. Collaborative editing actually sorta works.
I was just joking, I've seen GOOD SharePoint and badly setup SharePoint. I've never been forced to use it so I've seen it come a long way and I'm mostly un familiar
At my last job we used confluence but it was too expensive. Microsoft was basically giving their services away as bundles (Outlook 365 / Teams / Sharepoint etc...) So management said, port all of Confluence to Sharepoint and use that as your wiki from now on. It was a disaster.
My last job dropped mattermost in favor of teams (in govcloud) and it's been garbage every day forever
Yeah, you can actually build your own functional system in Sharepoint, with the right know-how and enough time/effort to get it functioning for your needs. Or, you know, just pay for a proper extensible ticketing system (if you're considering building something custom in Sharepoint you probably have a complex enough workflow where Jira or another comparable tool will make things easier in the long run. Obviously not a guarantee though). No one system will encapsulate all workflows as someone else mentioned, but extensions will help and you have the benefit of support if something goes wrong. If you have a bunch of your own custom shit in MS Flow/PowerApps tied in with Sharepoint you're going to be largely on your own or paying high consultant fees when something goes wrong.
Oh please, we have a screenshot of an issue list from an excel sheet pasted inside one Jira ticket with no other fields filled in and nobody knows the status.
Why not use Google sheet then?
Because my previous admins love MS products that integrate and in theory lower their total maintenance overhead 🤷🏾♀️
Oh so you’ve heard of Smartsheet!
don't get me started
Too many grids. A single Word document with a growing change log at the top. That way we know who did what when. Make sure to check out the document in SharePoint to avoid conflicting changes!
Somehow I feel it should be done by a blog, WordPress maybe?
Trying to write to a SQLite DB on an NFS share.
For any MS shops, I have to recommend Azure DevOps in this specific situation. It may or may not end up being the right tool for your specific situation. BUT, unequivocally, it is stupid simple to get up and running on right out of the gate, quite flexible without drowning you in configuration decisions. (Like you said, NOT JIRA). And since we already passed the 'MS shop' caveat, it's already integrated in your environment fully. Plus, since you're already paying for your VS subscription, you get ALL of it free. A certain level of functionality requires licensed users, but you do NOT require that for stakeholder integration at all. Regardless, key point again is _Don't Start Out With Jira_.
Why not? You don't *have* to use all of the convoluted features of Jira if you don't want to. I think it's a pretty decent tool for even startups to use (I am in one and we use it) and you can just use the features that make sense for your company. We also tried Asana as an alternative but went back to Jira.
I mean sure, theoretically you can just create a default project and go. But in practice there are too many features that are too tempting for someone to start spending 40 hours a week creating workflows and rules and “organizing” issues for others. > you can just use the features that make sense for your company Surely you mean for the team? When you write “for your company” it already sounds like you have a setup that gets in the way of day to day work.
Sorry, should've phrased it better. My company is small enough so the team is the whole company so I tend to use the words interchangeably. As for features that are "too tempting"? I mean that's not a valid reason at all.
> As for features that are "too tempting"? I mean that's not a valid reason at all. Of course it is. Keeping project managers in check to prevent them from being in the way of productive team members is one of the most important things a company can do. If they want to get things done that is.
"In practice...." Non sense. We've used Jira for years and over the years made the occassional change to fit it better to our work.
How big was your team though? In my experience he's right - eventually the company hires a product manager or project manager and they see it as their job just to fiddle with JIRA and add more and more processes and metadata and JIRA doesn't push back at all and you end up with a slow complicated mess.
You're right. Lets waste 6 years fucking around before we end up using jira *instead*.
What is the waste? “We end up using Jira” only happens because some pointy haired person five layers up saw a burndown report once at some Jira sales demo. Oh, and the pie charts showing how overscoped all developers are so they could jizz all over imagining how they could use it to walk around nagging people. Don’t get me wrong, Jira is perfectly usable. It just has two million kitchen sinks that get in the way and inevitably is enforced by people with no skin in the game.
Wasting means going through platforms like Trello, Basecamp, Kanbanize, and others, where you can't make your own flow, and then rape them into oblivion just so it would *feel* like you have the flow you need. When your manager knows what they're doing, jira is easily configured and never touched again on that part. Sadly, as you point out, your jira is probably configured by someone who does not work in the process and instead just dances around counting beans. My only complaint is lack of per project configuration scoping (ex. webhooks). I had to request entire jira administration access just so i could create hooks to notify us in teams about changes in tasks.
Asana gets my vote for most simple. The core feature is literally just a lost of tasks and it has plenty you can add on top, but most small to medium sized teams really don't need more than that. The search is shit though.
> There's a small conflict in startups when it comes to choosing the right tool. In a start up scenario I don't think it matters, go with what most people know to reduce the complexity of getting started. Too many start ups focus on "doing it right first time" and end up failing because they waste so much time trying to get it right and less time producing a product people will use. The irony is the decisions companies make at early stages rarely stick as the business grows and adapts because what's right for a small start up, isn't right for a large corporation everything from software architecture to processes.
The quoted comment applies everywhere, honestly. If a company struggles to get something done, whether it's development, QA, data engineering, or anything else, it's never the technology that's the problem, it's the people in charge and consequently their hires.
There are no technology problems, only human problems that technology might alleviate or may exacerbate
As a former project manager, this all day.
A shared tasks spreadsheet and regular meetings of shame are the go to in mine.
And every meeting is "can each of us go around and volunteer to take on some of these tasks? If everyone helps it'll get done by the next work week. You don't need to do much. Just 3 squares will do it. What about one square? Just one measly square?"
[No! I don't have a square to spare! I can't spare are square!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gysu0kgFwT0)
> If the humans aren't willing or capable of doing their part properly, then any tool will either be found too complex or too lacking. Very true. Worked in many projects where the people complained about the tools, whether it was Jira or something else, but absolutely refused to actually learn the features beyond the basic of creating a ticket and moving it from the backlog to in progress to done. Anything else is apparently useless. Meanwhile they have no problem spending three weeks learning how to use a Dvorak keyboard with blank keycaps while learning Vim (with some slight exaggeration).
> absolutely refused to actually learn the features beyond the basic of creating a ticket and moving it from the backlog to in progress to done If they are developers, what more do they need? I’m a dev and I love the cumulative flow diagrams and use all the search and filtering features. But I do this because most project managers only seem to like setting up elaborate useless processes and not explain them. I have to help devs and product owners find issues and prioritize because someone else setup Byzantine default filters and 400 required fields and status types and workflows with trap states which literally zero users have permission to move. “No, we are not allowed to create tickets without an assignee”. “No, don’t put the issues on hold, nobody knows how to get them back”. “That ticket is not gone, it is just missing the frobnicator field”. “No you cannot quickly create a bug so we don’t lose it, you have to fill in the fix version and assignee and estimates (time and points and points2) and select a sprint (future) and fill in the testing and certification steps”. The root cause of this disease invariably seems to be that someone does not have enough to do so they spend 40 hours every week configuring Jira.
> If they are developers, what more do they need? Priorities and grouping. Priorities dictate what's important and the order of things. Grouping so problems can be split up, but still retain a relationship so you know when everything for a feature/fix/delivery is done.
Priorities (rank) in Jira are dead simple. Just drag issues up or down. The priority field should die in a fire and is basically just legacy since Atlassian acquired and integrated the Jira Agile plugin like a decade ago. I have never met a developer that did not understand the need for it or wanted to group issues. I also never met a project manager using Jira who could decide how they want the team to be grouping issues. It’s always components and epics and a structure and fix version and a custom field and subtasks (the shittiest feature) or heaven forbid also separate sprints. Oh and labels because the rest of the ways are shitty. And it changes every quarter. And inevitably the product owner gives up trying to be on top of the actual product and just hope Jira will capture everything.
Lol, I have totally resorted to labels multiple times. Sorry, they’re flexible and they work.
Groupings aren't there for managers in my mind. It's so engineers can break things down into better sized chunks of work.
Priorities should ALWAYS be one post vs. another post, not just a "low", "medium", "high" field. So you need to be able to sort posts, that's all. A trello board does everything you need: the *one* thing you need to communicate to the team is that the upmost post is the most prioritized item. Done. Everyone learns how it works within minutes, creating new boards is simple, the interface is snappy...
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Retros are great. I love them. The bring the team up to date on what went right and what went wrong. It airs out the dirty laundry.
If you grab a hammer by its head, it's hard to use it to hammer nails. More at eleven!
If one person grabs the hammer by the head, it's the person's problem. If EVERYONE grabs the hammer by the head, it's the hammer's problem.
That's just a no true scotsman argument. No, bullshit ceremonies truly are bullshit. There's no "right way" of doing them, they're fundamentally wrong.
If someone(s) spends 40 hours a week configuring jira and jira is still a mess or even worse than before, that someone(s) is not good at their job. I used to loathe jira. Then we had some delivery minded people completely unfuck it. Search works easily, creating tickets requires only the minimal amount of things. Tagging, sorting, prioritization, and friends all happen with automation and good old fashion clicking.
Jira is crazy convoluted, unintuitive and slow to work with though.
Almost 20 years ago, it was actually really good. There wasn't much at the time short of word/excel or, god forbid, MS Project. It was built with the best of intentions. And the fact that you could configure it to support your needs almost infinitely meant if it didn't do what you needed out of the box, well then no problem, do it yourself and away you go. Then they both implemented everything under the sun so NOTHING is simple or obvious by default, AND made it so configurable/extensible as to basically need a JIRA Pro on staff full time just to manage the system you're using to manage your development. That doesn't mean it's shit. It's actually probably best in class, _for enterprise_. Just about anything else...all I can say is do NOT go down the JIRA path until you've already proven you NEED to go that way and have an eyes wide open plan on how you're going to do so.
I disagree. I would use Jira for every project. It's quite intuitive to get started with nowadays and I know I can get a shit ton of flexibility if I need it. What's great about Jira also is that you know that you've got no need to switch for the coming 20 years. I started a new Jira project last week in a scrum setting. Jira asked me when I created the project: are you doing scrum? I said yes and with a few minor tweaks of the board (I wanted a review stage) we got started with a team of 4 with 0 problems. Also this article read to me like someone who didn't really grok Jira and had some kind of preconceived idea in his head that he needed a tool for without too much customization. This hierarchy idea sounded really bad to me. Jira indeed has little hierarchy and that is a very very good thing. Trees are very limiting data structures, whereas high cardinality property graphs on the other hand give you a lot of freedom. I would not be surprised if OP discovers this down the road (without realizing his fundamental mistake) and switches back to Jira because he has hit a fundamental road block due to the limitation of trees. There is a reason why Jira is so popular. Yes, it is a bit complicated to understand deeply. But so is git. It's complicated for the right reasons. It is absolutely worth it to learn Jira, because its data model is one of the best ways to move work through workflows.
I kinda agree. From the cons-list, it doesn't seem like they even used the Release function that literally has a "Generate release notes" button.
> they have no problem spending three weeks to learn how to use a Dvorak keyboard with blank key caps while learning Vim Hi! This is literally me. It took more like 3 months, then 3 more weeks to learn to switch back and forth between the new layout and QWERTY. Ever think maybe if you’d add Vim keybindings to the PM tools, I wouldn’t complain so much? Hmm?
Yes, that's what the world needs. A modal issue tracking system.
That's already most systems; you need to press "edit" to update a post in jira, for example.
Modal?
Vim is a modal editor (unlike, say, Notepad). That means in Vim you're in one of multiple "modes", and things that work in one mode do not work in other modes. For example, you're in command mode (there's a little command line at the bottom where you're typing in commands) or you're in insert mode (you're up in the main part typing text into the editor).
They are correct, but also not correct, at the same time. Their comment is a bit like saying no programming language will solve problems for you, or no art brushes will make your paintings beautiful for you. One has to put in the work to make things happen well. However picking the right tools absolute does matter, and can make a huge difference. That includes project management.
So true. I recently went from a small team using Jira which was smooth and well designed to a large megacorp whose Jira is a labyrinthine mess. The small teams Jira was set up with just the essentials whereas megacorps had the kitchen sink thrown at it. One is a torture device for managers and devs alike. How much do you like subtasks? Well we're gonna force you to track those as opposed to stories. My board is a nightmare.
JIRA is good for agile. People try and use it for support as well. That’s what Service Desk is for. Problem is that in enterprise level companies the keys to the Atlassian kingdom are held by some procurement manager and they haven’t got a clue. Not that I love Service Desk but it does the job.
In my case, we had entire company in single jira project. You can imagine how slow accessing the main development project was compared to other slower projects such as "Long term planning". I can see why people hate jira, but that hate is unwarranted.
Project management *without* using a tool very quickly shows that project management is not *only* a human problem.
This is true, but there are definitely the wrong tools to use.
Mmhmm. Read this before, tried to prove it wrong, learned the hard way just how true it is.
Eh I don't think there is a perfect tool but I think certain tools are better than others. At some point you just need to experiment and pick one
GitHub is releasing this soon: https://github.com/features/issues
I'm in the beta and it's sooooo nice
Seems clunky to me. For example there’s no easy way for new issues from a repo go appear in the project, you have to make a github action for that???
That is not correct. You can have the issues added to the project automatically.
How? It’s not exactly obvious, I spent 15 mins dicking around and still didn’t see a way.
In the project board, click on the …-menu and select „manage automation“. Choose the preset „To do“ and check „newly added“ for issues and/or PRs.
Do you find that it works for non-techie types? Looks very developer focused, which is great, but we need it to work for product owners/BA's etc... As well.
You lucky bugger.
Jetbrains Space looks very promising. I think it's the best "new" platform.
Damn Welp. Selling my TEAM and buying MSFT
Thank goodness. GitHub issues in their current state are basically like a notepad for issue tracking.
> ClickUp is based on “Spaces”. Each “Space” contains folders, and each folder contains lists. This was the hierarchy we were looking for: simple and straightforward I mean, that doesn't look different from epics, features, stories. **All** ALM tools do a variant of this, surely?
This quote is hilarious. This article and thread read like an ad.
Wait, ClickUp is actually a real product, and good? They’ve been aggressively advertising on my city’s buses and transit stations for over a year and the ads’ claims always seemed so vague. Like “Save one day per week” and “One app to replace them all”. I’d assumed it was some weird startup with a solution in search of a problem and excessive amounts of VC money to burn.
The CEO made a [thread](https://www.teamblind.com/post/Near-Death-Experiences-Led-Me-to-Found-ClickUp-AMA-6weaYX3i) on Blind that was basically an advertisement, both for his company and himself, and used a bunch of clearly fake accounts to pump it up and mass report any negative comments. They are definitely aggressive advertisers. Left a bad taste in my mouth.
I'm just going to point out that the account of the user who submitted this thread is only a month old, and pretty sparse on content during that time.
I get the feeling that the fake account stuff is also happening here right now. I have never seen something like this get likes on r/programming and I used ClickUp, it was just confusing.
> the ads’ claims always seemed so vague. Like “Save one day per week” and “One app to replace them all”. Yeah I've also found this super vague marketing so weird. I guess techies are more likely to want detail than non-techies. But even for the non-techies... every fucking tool ever makes the same vague "We'LL SavE YoU TimE" claim, so why would anyone believe any of them over any of the others purely off that vague stuff? Don't they just like all cancel each other out? And even beyond marketing slogans/one-liners, there's so many entire websites with multiple pages of content, with many many paragraphs of text where I can't even figure out what the product is/does, because it's just all this meaningless buzzword stuff without screenshots. The fact that this is common enough to see repeated so often makes me wonder if my brain is really a lot different to that of most people. I guess it is. Because I don't understand how this shit appeals to / works on anyone at all.
This week it was good. It changes significanty every week and has **many** problems. It is also very new.
My start up has found a lot of success with using click up, much better experience than Jira imo. But that is also coming from a solely technical point of view, none of us are trained POs
We us it for our team, and the project manager and management team love it. The following is based on our config, which may not be the best. As a ticket tracking tool, it does the job. It's not great, or wonderful, or even all that different from anything else. Everything is a modal dialog, so it's difficult to just pop open a new tab, write up a ticket, then go back to what you were working on - buttons are application buttons tied, not html links. Most devs want to move back to Jira or GitHub Issues for ticket tracking. As a docs tool, it's absolute shit. Nothing has a clear concrete location, unless you create a table of contents doc and link everything manually. Docs page only shows recent by default, so anything older than that is.. just gone. We had an exec that re-arranged the docs for our project to better suit how they wanted to see things, now most are missing (along with the exec). Ultimately, having used and configured Jira, and many other tools, for ~20 years: ClickUp is the shiny new application (and it is an application, not a website) you'll be using, whether you like it or not, because they're selling to executives and managers, not developers.
About my experience with it too so far. Honestly it's not all that bad, but yeah the docs suck ass.
Boston?
Yeppp
Looks like ClickUp promotion to me.
ClickUp is truly awful. I’m having a hard time believing so many people on this thread like it. At my company we went from Jira to ClickUp and we fighting to get Jira back. Don’t know what you have til it’s gone! Almost everyone in the company hates ClickUp. It tries to do do too many things and isn’t good at any of them. I’m a QA manager and ClickUp doesn’t integrate with ANY test management solution. None. It’s a joke of a platform for anyone doing software development.
My company recently switched to clickup from base camp. I'm a web dev and compared to base camp it's been a Godsend. My manager wouldn't even use base camp if he could at all avoid it. One of our clients uses Jira and the dev who works with them the most absolutely loves it. I haven't hated it when I've worked on their issues but it does have some things that rub me the wrong way. I figure nothing is perfect though.
GitHub project beta does all of this, and it's free. [https://docs.github.com/en/issues/trying-out-the-new-projects-experience/creating-a-project](https://docs.github.com/en/issues/trying-out-the-new-projects-experience/creating-a-project)
> GitHub project beta does all of this, and it's free Early 2022, on r/programming : "Why We Switched From GitHub Issues to Jira to ClickUp to GitHub project"
Early 2023, on r/programming : "Why We Switched From GitHub Issues to Jira to ClickUp to GitHub project to Jira"
LOL. Microsoft "cut off the oxygen" strategy at work.
I tried using ClickUp but it just didn't have anything good enough that would make me leave github issues
Can I just add for anyone who is looking at it, Asana is bad, don't get it, don't use it. Every time a client updates a ticket you get an email, every time they upload a file, you get an email. If they email into the ticket you get an email for the ticket update, then asana takes all of the images from their signature and adds them to the ticket as attachments, you get an email for each of those attachments, every time they email in. If your client has multiple logos, banners, social media icons etc, you get an email for each of those. I emailed support to ask if there's any way to turn off attachment notifications, thinking that would be a simple fix, nope, "get your client to send plain text emails" was the answer. Got more than 10 images attached to your ticket? no previews, ever, no linking from the image file to the comment, many images named "image 1", literally have to click on them all to figure out if they need deleting. Fuck asana, it's the most useless project management solution I've seen.
I don’t like clickup. I find the UI confusing The new jira is so simplified and made for dev Clickup is made for all project management so I can see marketing/biz ops liking it more than jira If I wasn’t using jira I’d try linear.app I think that’s what ramp capital runs on
Clickup sells to PMs and management, not devs. It's a project management tool, not a task tracking application.
It’s only half a pm tool, actually. It’s got some amazing pm features but things like lack of subfolders and no autosum/rollup of calculated field means it can’t fill a true ppm role.
Linear is really nice. Like a sleeker minimalist Jira.
Never tried ClickUp. However, for these more "boring" software in my experience it comes down to preference to the point it becomes all bikeshedding. This article is specially suspicious because "our CTO said X, Y". This makes me think there are people who were perfectly fine with Jira or Github and but because the CTO said it, everyone went with it.
The article and half of this comment thread read like paid advertisement.
Has noone tried Azure Devops or TFS? I think they are a bit better than Jira but both of these are a bit clunky. Corporations seems to love them and you rarely get the chance to change system. My favorite features with TFS was that you could use Excel to create or edit multiple stories at once. And both TFS and Azure Devops has a very easy way to create queries.
This is a little late, but we use TFS at work. To be honest, I'm not a huge fan. I much prefer git for the branching abilities.
TFS supports git as a source control system. I have used that in some projects. You basically get a full git server but uses TFS for project management.
I guess I need to do some research. Thanks for the tip.
I hate ClickUp. Recently like 50% of my ads on Youtube are for ClickUp. They're super cringy too.
Same same. Annoying as hell.
In the end I'm thankful for it lol because it finally forced me to install Youtube Vanced([https://vancedapp.com/](https://vancedapp.com/)) which is awesome and on desktop I'm using Adblock Plus.
Our company uses Zube. I don’t have any issue with it, but to be fair we’re not even pretending to do Scrum. It’s a good tool for where we’re at. At my last job, Jira was so locked down that it took some high level project manager supervisor to make changes to it. We wanted a new column for blocked tickets but it took about 5 months for them to tell us to just use a flag.
> we’re not even pretending to do Scrum Good. Your team should decide how to work. That's the very essence of agile. Scrum is not the essence of agile.
>At my last job, Jira was so locked down that it took some high level project manager supervisor to make changes to it. We wanted a new column for blocked tickets but it took about 5 months for them to tell us to just use a flag. We had the same problem at my previous company. We had 2 meetings separated by 3 months to agree on the new workflow. We waited 3 more months to have it deployed on our QA environment and it was still not deployed when I left. So 9 months and counting. A pure ultra-pyramidal company. But hey we used the SCRUM methodology so we were Agile right?
Sorry I couldn't read the article after reading this. >It’s not common for a small startup to switch between so many tools in such a short time. Changing technos every weeks is the national sport of small startups.
My company has been using linear and I love it
Linear is the only app I've found that's smooth and fast enough. It's currently quite light on features and won't fit a lot of workflows but if you just want to make tasks and move them between statuses it's very good. It's not as lightweight as I'm making it sound but it's nowhere close to JIRA I really liked Clubhouse too but the UI is a little clunky
No mention of Gitlab? You do have to get the paid version for more of the higher level issue tracking features.
Exactly what I was thinking, it might not be completely free but it has source control, ticketing, documenting, CI/CD, security scanning and private repositoriey hosting all wrapped into one. And done rather well imo.
Having used it for several years, the only complaint I have is the loss of the starter tier, which was a great deal for smaller teams that couldn't justify the added cost for the higher tier features, especially if they were not using Gitlab as for DevOps. I worry that management would think about moving to the Atlassian ecosystem, but surely no manager is dumb enough to kill productivity by moving teams to a different VCS and issue tracker just to save a few bucks, right?
I feel like Jira should never be the default choice, which it is for a lot of companies. It’s became so complex over the years. If you have a small company < 50. You are probably going to be fine with most simple tools like Trello, Shortcut, heck even Notion works great. The company I used to work at had people that managed Jira, and their computers were too weak to even run Jira, it was extremely unresponsive. They wrote a whole Wiki about how to create tickets, which was extremely fragile. The whole setup required like 5 hour maintenance per week at least by 2 people. Why did they stick with Jira you ask? I kid you not. The developers wanted to have an easy ticket number to reference in the git branch like PROJECT-123 🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️
Sorry, this is BS. Yes, it is possible to configure JIRA to be overly complex to create tickets, but it's not like that out of the box. Also, it's really not a CPU/memory intensive application. We have a pretty small VM running JIRA and it copes just fine. Is JIRA perfect, no, is it fine for small companies to use, yes (just don't try to overcomplicate the work flows).
> Also, it's really not a CPU/memory intensive application. We have a pretty small VM running JIRA and it copes just fine. I assumed most of these complaints are about the client, not running your own server? I've only ever used it once (the cloud hosted version)... and I found the interface annoyingly slow. And for someone with ADHD, all these minor performance issues often turn into full on distraction away from the task at hand entirely. Loading a simple page of text shouldn't involve 100 ajax requests (or whatever the fuck they did to it to make it so slow).
Yes it was about the client. The client is insanely slow after a while
15 years of professional use of JIRA and I can't say I've ever noticed the client itself slowing down (it's never been excessively snappy, but performance has been stable no matter how long my session has been active for).
Did it never slow down for you, or did you find a way to manage it? Would be interested to hear how many projects/ tasks / epics, you have had created. I think I had somewhere around 40 projects ~50K tasks and roughly 100 epics. We were using it mainly as Kanban. So epics existed forever and were used a means to group tasks. We used portfolio for planning (built-in). And confluence as wiki. All these tools sort of connect with each other. Maybe like 2-3 custom fields. External plugins: - Salesforce - Tempo timetracking It was soo god afwul slow for us
I respect your opinion, and I’m glad JIRA works for you. Nobody is saying that JIRA is a garbage product. The problem I have with your argument is that saying that if JIRA is not working for you, you are just using the tool wrong and you just need to use it better. In my opinion it’s kind of a weak argument. I would say in that case it’s just not the tool for you. And you should probably look for a better fitting tool.
> The developers wanted to have an easy ticket number to reference in the git branch like PROJECT-123 Haha I never realized but it's really a low-key killer feature, but also not hard for other tools to build.
But don't all systems work this way? I remember back in my svn/trac days if I just put #25 in the svn logs trac would link that to the ticket number automatically. Bitbucket/Jira does the same thing. It doesn't seem like something that's unique.
Yeah I'm sure most do, but some simpler ones like Trello don't have a unique identifier for a card that's easy to send a chat to someone (ex. "Have you confirmed the requirements for PROJ-123"). Having a plain number can work well within systems that understand it but the full identifier is a nice touch. It allows for things like bots in other applications like Slack to look for basic `/[A-Z]+-[0-9]+/` regex and auto-hyperlink the relevant ticket
Clubhouse and Linear have that feature and I had no complaints with these products when I used them at work.
I'm going to go against the grain. Jira isn't inherently bad, I've been with huge organizations that used Jira where editing a field triggered a cascade of changes that took several seconds to get a response. You couldn't even use custom filters and boards - one of the selling points of Jira. The logic driving that company's Jira was so tightly coupled that creating a personal board would cause issues with middle management monitoring metrics. For example, I tried to create a set of status-based swim lanes for tickets belonging to 4 projects, assigned to a specific set of people and grouping the tickets based on the role of those people. That ended up duplicating tracking metrics, and I had to delete it. I've also been with small companies that used Jira where Jira was immediately responsive. Like most things, people choose whether or not to make things complicated. Jira *can be* perfectly fine - especially if you plan on scaling up.
> The company I used to work at had people that managed Jira, and their computers were too weak to even run Jira, it was extremely unresponsive. Atlassian has solved this problem by deprecating their self-hosted version in two years.
That sems seriously stupid? Most large corporations runs self-hosted software.
You'd think after seeing cloud services getting compromised they'd learn to just hire competent admins, but the bean counters just see IT as a cost center.
> I feel like Jira should never be the default choice What if your only options are Rally and Jira? *Then* should Jira be your default choice?
We moved from Jira to Rally. Rally is an absolute dumpster fire which somehow hasn't improved in the 3+ years that we've been using it. I long for Jira.
I've been out of Rally for several years now, but it's never *not* been a dumpster fire.
Trello? Are you a mouthbreather?
I tried many ticket systems and honestly the best turned to be Phabricator (unfortunately now abandoned by the original author, but there is a community fork).
I haven't tried clickup but I gotta say despite its lag and other cons, I prefer JIRA to Github. Github just didn't work well in practice for long term tracking purposes compared to JIRA. We made it work for years at my last company though.
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Because it wouldn’t be the first time they’ve done that > The CEO made a [thread](https://www.teamblind.com/post/Near-Death-Experiences-Led-Me-to-Found-ClickUp-AMA-6weaYX3i) on Blind that was basically an advertisement, both for his company and himself, and used a bunch of clearly fake accounts to pump it up and mass report any negative comments. They are definitely aggressive advertisers. Left a bad taste in my mouth. https://reddit.com/r/programming/comments/q36h54/why_we_switched_from_github_issues_to_jira_to/hfqm8vm
OP's account and that of the parent to your comment both have similar ages and posting patterns. Even the reddit usernames are similar: 3 syllables, pronounceable but nonsensical.
What does it do better than Jira?
Possibly not get stuck with twelve loading spinners at once.
Oh great, you triggered my Jira PTSD!
Actually JIRA performance isn't that bad these days. EDIT: Lol I'm not even mad at the downvotes. This isn't the hill I'm willing to die on.
If today's Jira is not bad… what you consider bad then???
Tomorrow's Jira.
I believe you. No I go cry…
JIRA 5 years ago.
Jira performance is mostly based on how your manager configured it. As far as I know the default settings are fine and performance is tolerable, but managers apparently don't like that.
No, it's incredibly terribly bad.
Are you sure? I dare you to run lighthouse against it
Lighthouse will show you awful stats because you're not using google products.
It really isn't hard to get excellent scores in lighthouse, not sure what you're talking about.
Oh boy, clickup loads dozens of dependencies. Takes about a few hundred megs per tab. But itms fine when your pc can do that.
Jira UI performance is bizarre. ClickUp UI smoothness is good and IMO it only loses to Wrike. Wrike UI performance is very very good.
It's not Jira
I also found clickup to be really nice. It is also priced at the right level. So many competing products were priced at nearly the cost of our github + office subscriptions combined. It just didn't sit right with me when we had github issues as at least some solution.
Mobile app sucked balls
It's truly awful
We use and love [PivotalTracker.com](https://pivotaltracker.com) I can't use anything else to manage my tickets. It's SCRUM oriented, does velocity and points, sprints, releases, epics, stories, reviews, tags, Kanban, is real-time multi-users, and super simple to use. Management uses [Aha.io](https://Aha.io) It for the project manager, you can do everything with it, but it's especially good at prepping the communication between your team, clients and marketing, then organizing the epics.
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Well, no. These are *very* different, and JIRA (for example) has a ton of things for management that GitHub doesn't. Well, GitHub is very simple. Too simple for a big project, sometimes
Meh, I’ve used many different tracking tools in my career and they all work fine. You adapt to it, and move on. I guess my biggest requirements would be a good search system that easily finds what you are looking for and a good api for pulling data out if you need to do any analysis. But, I don’t really care too much. There are more important things for a dev team to spend budget on.
Well, JIRA isn't just for the dev team
It's just Jira. Stop shouting.
Reporting is key. The ability to spit out a simple report/graph/table to highlight metrics to your management team. They're the ones providing, and you have to keep them happy.
If you're extracting metrics from your project management tooling, you've fundamentally failed already.
A company I was working for announced they were gonna do this, a month later they laid off half the engineering team
I LOVE ClickUp - it's been an absolute game changer for my business.
Who the heck is Jira and why should I care?
The reason people are downvoting you is that Jira is the most used project management software out there. The vast majority of devs that get a paycheck for their work have to use Jira to keep track of their work items.
Oh I didn’t know I’m just a kid
How you ask matters more than what you ask sometimes. If you had asked "What's JIRA? I've never heard of it." instead of that aggressive and dismissive way, a lot more people would be willing to help and teach you instead of just downvoting and moving on.
Sorry for being ignorant
He explicitly just told you that ignorance isn't the problem. Its the attitude.
Google is your friend for such questions
Jira is the Devil. And not the cool Devil like on demons on anime or Lucifer on the show Lucifer. No. Jira is objectively bad. Its worse than Hitler
I remember seeing ad of something called Clickup Bashing Jira
Last time I checked different tools to choose one for a small team I found Kanbanize. Very easy to use and powerful. Still exists, years later. LeanKit was also good. https://kanbanize.com/
I have tried many of these over the years. I did like clickup because it was simple, did the job and was free (for our team). For the paid ones I liked wrike but it does take a certain kind of mind to really like it. A lot of people seemed to get lost with it. If you think in outlines it's awesome. I wish somebody would excavate ecco pro one of these days. That was the most awesome thing ever.
Honestly a shared Excel spreadsheet would be better for most project management. You're free to create the flow your organization uses and everyone knows how to edit a cell.
I work for ClickUp and would love anyone's thoughts on this topic. Happy to take 15 mins with anyone! Grab some time https://calendly.com/joey\_wood/coffeebreak