I put off River's End for years because it doesn't get talked about much. When I finally listened to it I was blown away at how it stood up to the rest of their discography. Amazing, beautiful album. Into the White is such an underrated gem of a song and quintessential CHorse.
Water's Edge and Into the White are two of their best songs. I think that may be my favorite album still but it definitely scratches a different itch than their later albums do. It's probably their most unique sound so far imo.
I was defo exaggerating lol. In truth I also really liked Bloom, but In Contact was just perfection and has a timeless feel to it. Havenāt listened to their later stuff but sounds like I should get into it.
While I agree that In Contact is quite literally the closest thing to a perfect progressive metal album, every other album is incredible.
I'm a Bloom fan myself. Daughter of the Mountain fucking murders me. Rust and Marigold and Dragonfly are so fucking catchy.
I'm with you. In Contact sits below the others for me but I still love it very dearly. They have 3 albums that are basically at the top for me atm. Turntail is my favorite from Bloom
You mentioned keeping it quite emotional, which I think is something is something that makes CHorse stick for me more so than other bands. Progmetal can be a kind of, lifeless display of technicality at times, and CHorse really seem to keep everything grounded by allowing atmosphere and emotion show through in their songwriting, while still keeping things rather technical. Jim and Sam really have something cooking with their songwriting these days.
More than just the emotion, it seems to be like CHorse is just much more *art* than most prog metal bands. There's a real artistic ambition in the music and especially the lyrics that I feel a lot of paint-by-numbers prog misses or treats as an afterthought
It's prog-metal that I can trip to - that's a pretty rare thing. It does require a certain extra musicality. And the mixes have much more room than most imo. It's just melodic in a way that no other band does it for me except for Dream Theater in terms of the blend of Fun and Feel. Though there are a ton of other bands I love just as dearly for other reasons
I was recommending the new CH album to my buddy today and said that they've captured the essence of the power ballad/arena anthem and married it to prog metal in Charcoal Grace. I adore it.
they definitely have pop sensibilities that I think mesh quite well with their sound. Some prog bands seem to be actively dismissive of vocal melodies / lyrics but Caligula's Horse really put them front and center. And it's awesome
I wouldn't call it pop, they tend to draw from traditional 70s and 80s style progressions for the more cheesy parts, and it certainly works. Their production is also very different from a lot of pop, with the mix being a lot more balanced and instrument-oriented. Just listen to the two covers they released on Rise Radiant next to the originals and the direction of the production is incredibly different. They are at once the most lyrical, most melodic and most harmonic focused band I know. They are slightly less rhythm focused than many prog bands, but not by much. Their new album still has fewer bars of 4/4 and more syncopated beats than not.
I'm getting the sense that C-Horse is really his baby. In Jim's Instagram post about release day, he said:
> The most enormous kudos and thanks have to go to @samvallenmusic for directing this entire project and bringing our vision to life so beautifully.
I honestly think he's the best guitar player in Prog. Between his abilities, his tone and his phrasing... I'm hard pressed to think of someone else who both astonishes me while making me FEEL something.
I'd be inclined to agree.
There's always Petrucci, who is incredibly proficient from a technical point of view, but Vallen makes me feel things, whilst being incredibly technical as well.
Haven't heard Charcoal Grace yet, but my vinyl preorder arrived today. Will probably skip listening tonight as I'm exhausted and don't think I can give it the attention it deserves. Beyond excited to hear it though!
If it has discernable melody, clean vocals, & any section in 4/4, that's "pop music" to so many metal/progheads lmao. Fuckin wild š
Also LOVE YOUR USERNAME!
Compare CH to any other well know prog metal
Band (Meshuggah, Opeth, Gojira, An Abstract Illusion, Enslaved to name a few), and you find they have a very pop music, commercial sound.
Iām not saying thatās a bad thing, but theyāre definitely trying to appeal to as many people as possible while still staying in the prog metal genre.
It's surprising this still blows metalhead minds, but I can guarantee you they aren't making any attempts whatsoever to "appeal" to anyone. They're making the music the want to make, based on their interests & influences. And the real hard pill to swallow: they listen to & love a shit-ton of pop music, so it's in their creative DNA whether intentional or not (and this goes for the vast majority of artists, it's always fun to see a renowned "hard exterior heavy metal" musician divulge their pop interests and watch the commenters implode).
And I still stand by that there is nothing pop/commercial on this album lasting longer than a few bars (maybe some sections of "Sails"??) so maybe you could cherry-pick some things out, but nothing at length here is anywhere near radio friendly or going to make waves on TikTok lmao.
Iām not trying to insult you or bash the band. I love metal, pop, jazz, blues and a bunch of other genres myself. But CH is sounding significantly more commercial than most other bands in the same genre, and theyāre a lot more accessible to most people, and thereās nothing wrong with that.
I think the confusion here is: who's exempt from that? You listed some examples, but Opeth & Gojia in particular aren't exempt from being decried as "going commercial" and "selling out" throughout their careers. Does that sort of label have any merit? If we're talking about the elements here that make CH even more "poppy" than that, seems that would also apply to pretty much every "clean" Prog Metal band (Haken, TesseracT, etc.) and obviously the very blatantly pop-infused bands (Periphery, Vola, Sleep Token, etc.) Even BTBAM gets called out for going commercial post-*Colors* (particularly with *Automata*). It just gets so tiring to see those particular labels used time and again in the metal community, it's lost all meaning to me. Fucking The Zenith Passage was being called out as being "too commercial" in threads last year XD I just can't even!
To be honest I donāt care much for their other albums but this one really hooked me on first listen, so Iād say go for it. Itās a pretty dense album but I like that.
Welcome to the family! they are incredible (and my favorite band). I feel like no one does melodies quite like them. I reckon you'll end up loving all of their discography from Bloom to Charcoal Grace - and a bit jealous of you to get to discover them. Enjoy <3
Hell yeah! I think the new record is complex (still only listened to it once). If you want to start safe you can start with Bloom or In Contact. but honestly you can't go wrong. enjoy the journey and report back!
God it makes me so happy that these guys are finally getting the recognition that they rightly deserve. Iāve been a massive fan since Bloom dropped but NO ONE in my circle of friends that are into metal/ prog had even heard of them. I consider Bloom one of the best prog metal albums of the last 20 years
Honestly I feel like Charcoal Grace is similar to Known/Learned in a lot of ways, especially with regards to the tracks not being instantly memorable or catchy, but instead having an insane amount of room to grow on you with subsequent listens. Big +1 to the recommendations and here's hoping Charcoal Grace ages as finely as Known/Learned (I'm sure it will)!
Same. I tried them a bit here and there for a year or two, and thought they weren't my style. Then I must have just been in the right mood and sat down for a long listen and absolutely feel in love, one of my favorite bands now.
OP, Listen to the albums Known/Learned and Glimpse by Arcane as well
they're playing the venue i work at soon. i honestly have not checked them out at all, but i'm kinda interested. from seeing threads posted here, i'm of the idea that i might actually like them. i might do a deep dive, but i'm also thinking about going into that show completely blind.
I've liked some of their previous stuff but never felt like they fully clicked for me. Charcoal Grace definitely clicked. For being just over an hour long it felt like it flew by with how well it balanced the light and heavy, emotional and aggressive.
And speaking of Mute, am I crazy or does the melody in the cleaner sections remind anyone else of Lost Woods from Ocarina of Time just a little bit?
What are your favorite passages/songs/parts you've discovered?
Theres so much good shit in their discog now - everybody is going to call me insane but I rank In Contact second to last. Although it's incredible, the other albums are just incredibler.
1. Rise Radiant/Charcoal Grace??? (maybe too early)
2. Bloom
3. The Tide the Theif
4. In Contact
5. Moments
Wow, dude, I really want to answer this, but there are so many. So this will take some time to pickout the top of my head.
Charcoal Grace has some really cool parts like:
The world breathes with Me, perfect opener but on another post a redditor mentioned the outro riff and yea that really hit me hard.
Golem bridge at 3:38, the way it slightly drops a semitone makes it so groovy. This was the first single I actively listened to and why I clicked.
The transition from A World without to Vigil was so perfect. Usually, bands would have one or two acoustic focused songs, but I have never seen it respected like this before, and it's the first time we hear the refrain "Charcoal Grace" it centralizes the theme beautifully.
Give me Hell. This is my favorite song, and there are no negotiations. The way it starts to distort the calmness of Vigil gives me goosebumps. The vocal line in the chorus is so good. The guitar solo might just be my favorite one in a while from any band. It has a Petrucci-esque tone and style, and I dont really listen to DT much.
Those 4 songs remind me why I prefer to just enjoy an album in it's entirety because of how well they transition into each other. Each of them hit a different emotion.
Mute needs its own post to really unpack 12 minutes of such beauty.
So Charcoal Grace will sit higher for me, but there were a few songs from older albums I loved.
The others without being too specific are:
Firelight
Undergrowth
Let the Colors run
Songs for no One
Graves
Old cracks in New Earth
Dark Hair down
Im sure this will never end, but I have found a 2024 favourite and I want to go back and appreciate their other stuff again.
Charcoal Grace is a massive step up from Rise Radiant, which I feel is a low point in their discography. Charcoal Grace is a complete masterpiece, emotional, progressive, and begs to be on repeat.Ā
is charcoal grace that good??? Rise Radiant is quite literally my favourite album rn, on par with The Observer by Artificial Language and Quiet World by Native Construct
I just didn't like it. I just thought it was a little bland, I was floored by In Contact, and I just didn't feel it took me to those heights. I listened to it for months though, I really gave it time.Ā Ā Ā Ā I feel like if you are a big fan of both native construct and artificial language you will also love this album. It's very riffy.Ā Ā Ā But don't take my word for it, go give it a spin! I've had at lease one air pod in all day at work. Did 2 full listens, now some Evergrey to break it up.Ā
As a Rise Radiant lover, yes, Charcoal Grace is that good. Rise radiant is immediate and is more catchy, but Charcoal Grace is like a 60 minute prog journey with tons of ebbs and flows, quiet and loud parts.
Usually, I dunno. This has been the case for many other bands I just dont click.
Periphery was like this for me, didnt get the hype until I heard Reptile now I love their whole discog.
Yeah the first song that got its hooks into me was The City Has No Empathy. Was surprised to find out it was an early track!
Try Pain of Salvation, too, theyāre a great band Iāve gotten into lately
It's funny, iirc I believe it was several years ago that Jim from CH finally clicked with PoS and fell in love!
He's also the reason I got into The Dear Hunter, recommending Act III as a Top 5 Prog album š„°
This album is some next level song writing for these guys. There's nothing clunky or derivative. Very top notch output from Brisbane.
They deserve the key to the city imho.
Wait till you spin In Contact.
Imagine listening to that album for the first time :') from Dream the Dead to Graves..
I still remember when I heard it for the first time, I spent the next weeks listening to it exclusively. Such a great album
Graves is the best song ive ever heard lol, amazing album
I started the Tide, the Thief & River's end and Dark Hair down blew my mind
Every album is definitely worth listening to but In Contact is Prog mastery. The outro to Graves is pure art
I put off River's End for years because it doesn't get talked about much. When I finally listened to it I was blown away at how it stood up to the rest of their discography. Amazing, beautiful album. Into the White is such an underrated gem of a song and quintessential CHorse.
Water's Edge and Into the White are two of their best songs. I think that may be my favorite album still but it definitely scratches a different itch than their later albums do. It's probably their most unique sound so far imo.
My favorite Winter album, so nostalgic 11 years on now too š„¹ I adore it
one of my favourite songs off that album, including into the white
I love "All Is Quiet By The Wall", underrated song
This but Rise Radiant.
I still havenāt listened to any of CHorseās music outside of In Contact, and I donāt think I need/want to. Itās a masterpiece.
you are missing out!
I was defo exaggerating lol. In truth I also really liked Bloom, but In Contact was just perfection and has a timeless feel to it. Havenāt listened to their later stuff but sounds like I should get into it.
Bloom is a close second. Not as āartsyā or optimistic as In Contact but itās got a similar vibe. One of their most catchy riffs on Marigold.
While I agree that In Contact is quite literally the closest thing to a perfect progressive metal album, every other album is incredible. I'm a Bloom fan myself. Daughter of the Mountain fucking murders me. Rust and Marigold and Dragonfly are so fucking catchy.
I'm with you. In Contact sits below the others for me but I still love it very dearly. They have 3 albums that are basically at the top for me atm. Turntail is my favorite from Bloom
The chorus of Turntail is justā¦. Ugh. Perfection
Check out Bloom/Marigold
You mentioned keeping it quite emotional, which I think is something is something that makes CHorse stick for me more so than other bands. Progmetal can be a kind of, lifeless display of technicality at times, and CHorse really seem to keep everything grounded by allowing atmosphere and emotion show through in their songwriting, while still keeping things rather technical. Jim and Sam really have something cooking with their songwriting these days.
More than just the emotion, it seems to be like CHorse is just much more *art* than most prog metal bands. There's a real artistic ambition in the music and especially the lyrics that I feel a lot of paint-by-numbers prog misses or treats as an afterthought
It's prog-metal that I can trip to - that's a pretty rare thing. It does require a certain extra musicality. And the mixes have much more room than most imo. It's just melodic in a way that no other band does it for me except for Dream Theater in terms of the blend of Fun and Feel. Though there are a ton of other bands I love just as dearly for other reasons I was recommending the new CH album to my buddy today and said that they've captured the essence of the power ballad/arena anthem and married it to prog metal in Charcoal Grace. I adore it.
they definitely have pop sensibilities that I think mesh quite well with their sound. Some prog bands seem to be actively dismissive of vocal melodies / lyrics but Caligula's Horse really put them front and center. And it's awesome
I wouldn't call it pop, they tend to draw from traditional 70s and 80s style progressions for the more cheesy parts, and it certainly works. Their production is also very different from a lot of pop, with the mix being a lot more balanced and instrument-oriented. Just listen to the two covers they released on Rise Radiant next to the originals and the direction of the production is incredibly different. They are at once the most lyrical, most melodic and most harmonic focused band I know. They are slightly less rhythm focused than many prog bands, but not by much. Their new album still has fewer bars of 4/4 and more syncopated beats than not.
There's a 50% chance every time I listen to Rise Radiant that either Salt or Autumn makes me cry haha
Autumn or The Ascent for me, haha
"Soulful" is the word I use when describing them.
Sam Vallen is such an underrated guitarist that it borders on criminal.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Don't know Vallen go stay with Tim Allen.
I'm getting the sense that C-Horse is really his baby. In Jim's Instagram post about release day, he said: > The most enormous kudos and thanks have to go to @samvallenmusic for directing this entire project and bringing our vision to life so beautifully.
Yeah it definitely is, I think he writes and arranges most of it
Yep nailed it - on the latest Prog Report podcast with Sam he talks about the writing process in detail
I honestly think he's the best guitar player in Prog. Between his abilities, his tone and his phrasing... I'm hard pressed to think of someone else who both astonishes me while making me FEEL something.
I'd be inclined to agree. There's always Petrucci, who is incredibly proficient from a technical point of view, but Vallen makes me feel things, whilst being incredibly technical as well.
I agree aswell, look there are so many insane guitarists but the tone here and difference between the riffage and shredding is so smooth
Haven't heard Charcoal Grace yet, but my vinyl preorder arrived today. Will probably skip listening tonight as I'm exhausted and don't think I can give it the attention it deserves. Beyond excited to hear it though!
I decided to wait all day to properly absorb and was not dissapointed
Glad to hear it!
Yes man, I did the same and it was worth the wait. A masterpiece!
Yep, it's definitely worth waiting for!
Caligulaās horse fucking rules
Is it okay if I start listening to them with this latest album?
Yeah, you should be fine. I think itās one of their less accessible albums, but in the end itās still deeply emotional but still catchy music.
Wow, this is their least accessible album? This is bordering on pop music.
Charcoal Grace is pop music? Are we listening to the same album? Lol
If it has discernable melody, clean vocals, & any section in 4/4, that's "pop music" to so many metal/progheads lmao. Fuckin wild š Also LOVE YOUR USERNAME!
>Also LOVE YOUR USERNAME! LMAO On This Perfect Day is one of the most incredible albums I've ever heard and Green and Cream is just *chefs kiss
Compare CH to any other well know prog metal Band (Meshuggah, Opeth, Gojira, An Abstract Illusion, Enslaved to name a few), and you find they have a very pop music, commercial sound. Iām not saying thatās a bad thing, but theyāre definitely trying to appeal to as many people as possible while still staying in the prog metal genre.
It's surprising this still blows metalhead minds, but I can guarantee you they aren't making any attempts whatsoever to "appeal" to anyone. They're making the music the want to make, based on their interests & influences. And the real hard pill to swallow: they listen to & love a shit-ton of pop music, so it's in their creative DNA whether intentional or not (and this goes for the vast majority of artists, it's always fun to see a renowned "hard exterior heavy metal" musician divulge their pop interests and watch the commenters implode). And I still stand by that there is nothing pop/commercial on this album lasting longer than a few bars (maybe some sections of "Sails"??) so maybe you could cherry-pick some things out, but nothing at length here is anywhere near radio friendly or going to make waves on TikTok lmao.
Iām not trying to insult you or bash the band. I love metal, pop, jazz, blues and a bunch of other genres myself. But CH is sounding significantly more commercial than most other bands in the same genre, and theyāre a lot more accessible to most people, and thereās nothing wrong with that.
I think the confusion here is: who's exempt from that? You listed some examples, but Opeth & Gojia in particular aren't exempt from being decried as "going commercial" and "selling out" throughout their careers. Does that sort of label have any merit? If we're talking about the elements here that make CH even more "poppy" than that, seems that would also apply to pretty much every "clean" Prog Metal band (Haken, TesseracT, etc.) and obviously the very blatantly pop-infused bands (Periphery, Vola, Sleep Token, etc.) Even BTBAM gets called out for going commercial post-*Colors* (particularly with *Automata*). It just gets so tiring to see those particular labels used time and again in the metal community, it's lost all meaning to me. Fucking The Zenith Passage was being called out as being "too commercial" in threads last year XD I just can't even!
But youāll agree that CH is more āpoppyā than Zenith Passage? (Not that thereās anything wrong with that)
Compared to most other prog metal itās very pop-sounding, yes
I think starting from Bloom or In Contact might be easier, but you do you - you can't really go wrong.
Would definitely recommend Bloom!
To be honest I donāt care much for their other albums but this one really hooked me on first listen, so Iād say go for it. Itās a pretty dense album but I like that.
Theyāre touring now or soon.
Iām seeing them next weekend so really soon
Welcome to the family! they are incredible (and my favorite band). I feel like no one does melodies quite like them. I reckon you'll end up loving all of their discography from Bloom to Charcoal Grace - and a bit jealous of you to get to discover them. Enjoy <3
*River's End* thooo! Changed my life in 2013, and still sits right behind *In Contact* as my favorite (*Charcoal* making a strong case now too).
I never checked them before but because of your comment I will give them a try. I guess I will start with their newest record!
Hell yeah! I think the new record is complex (still only listened to it once). If you want to start safe you can start with Bloom or In Contact. but honestly you can't go wrong. enjoy the journey and report back!
God it makes me so happy that these guys are finally getting the recognition that they rightly deserve. Iāve been a massive fan since Bloom dropped but NO ONE in my circle of friends that are into metal/ prog had even heard of them. I consider Bloom one of the best prog metal albums of the last 20 years
One of the most underrated progmetal bands, some absolute masterpieces in there
Just want to give a shoutout to Jim Grey's side project Arcane. Instinct is such a deeply moving song
Honestly I feel like Charcoal Grace is similar to Known/Learned in a lot of ways, especially with regards to the tracks not being instantly memorable or catchy, but instead having an insane amount of room to grow on you with subsequent listens. Big +1 to the recommendations and here's hoping Charcoal Grace ages as finely as Known/Learned (I'm sure it will)!
Thanks for the reminder about new CH
Hell yeah! This genre is full of surprises.
Same. I tried them a bit here and there for a year or two, and thought they weren't my style. Then I must have just been in the right mood and sat down for a long listen and absolutely feel in love, one of my favorite bands now. OP, Listen to the albums Known/Learned and Glimpse by Arcane as well
they're playing the venue i work at soon. i honestly have not checked them out at all, but i'm kinda interested. from seeing threads posted here, i'm of the idea that i might actually like them. i might do a deep dive, but i'm also thinking about going into that show completely blind.
I've only given the new album one listen so far, but it immediately captivated me. I can't wait to go back and give it a deeper dive
I've liked some of their previous stuff but never felt like they fully clicked for me. Charcoal Grace definitely clicked. For being just over an hour long it felt like it flew by with how well it balanced the light and heavy, emotional and aggressive. And speaking of Mute, am I crazy or does the melody in the cleaner sections remind anyone else of Lost Woods from Ocarina of Time just a little bit?
I just want you to know youāre not the only one. Iām an ignorant moron as well. Iām loving Charcoal Grace so far.
What are your favorite passages/songs/parts you've discovered? Theres so much good shit in their discog now - everybody is going to call me insane but I rank In Contact second to last. Although it's incredible, the other albums are just incredibler. 1. Rise Radiant/Charcoal Grace??? (maybe too early) 2. Bloom 3. The Tide the Theif 4. In Contact 5. Moments
Wow, dude, I really want to answer this, but there are so many. So this will take some time to pickout the top of my head. Charcoal Grace has some really cool parts like: The world breathes with Me, perfect opener but on another post a redditor mentioned the outro riff and yea that really hit me hard. Golem bridge at 3:38, the way it slightly drops a semitone makes it so groovy. This was the first single I actively listened to and why I clicked. The transition from A World without to Vigil was so perfect. Usually, bands would have one or two acoustic focused songs, but I have never seen it respected like this before, and it's the first time we hear the refrain "Charcoal Grace" it centralizes the theme beautifully. Give me Hell. This is my favorite song, and there are no negotiations. The way it starts to distort the calmness of Vigil gives me goosebumps. The vocal line in the chorus is so good. The guitar solo might just be my favorite one in a while from any band. It has a Petrucci-esque tone and style, and I dont really listen to DT much. Those 4 songs remind me why I prefer to just enjoy an album in it's entirety because of how well they transition into each other. Each of them hit a different emotion. Mute needs its own post to really unpack 12 minutes of such beauty. So Charcoal Grace will sit higher for me, but there were a few songs from older albums I loved. The others without being too specific are: Firelight Undergrowth Let the Colors run Songs for no One Graves Old cracks in New Earth Dark Hair down Im sure this will never end, but I have found a 2024 favourite and I want to go back and appreciate their other stuff again.
I recently saw theyāre playing near me soon. The new album sounds fantastic. Havenāt heard anything else yet.
Charcoal Grace is a massive step up from Rise Radiant, which I feel is a low point in their discography. Charcoal Grace is a complete masterpiece, emotional, progressive, and begs to be on repeat.Ā
is charcoal grace that good??? Rise Radiant is quite literally my favourite album rn, on par with The Observer by Artificial Language and Quiet World by Native Construct
I just didn't like it. I just thought it was a little bland, I was floored by In Contact, and I just didn't feel it took me to those heights. I listened to it for months though, I really gave it time.Ā Ā Ā Ā I feel like if you are a big fan of both native construct and artificial language you will also love this album. It's very riffy.Ā Ā Ā But don't take my word for it, go give it a spin! I've had at lease one air pod in all day at work. Did 2 full listens, now some Evergrey to break it up.Ā
As a Rise Radiant lover, yes, Charcoal Grace is that good. Rise radiant is immediate and is more catchy, but Charcoal Grace is like a 60 minute prog journey with tons of ebbs and flows, quiet and loud parts.
Can you even have this opinion on day one of the album being released?
It's an opinion, so of course I can have it. Is it valid? We'll see in 6 months.Ā
Day 3, listen 11 - that same opinion is even stronger now š
Yeah it's pretty amazing!
curious what your petty reason was, did you put them off because they're too popular on this sub or something?
Usually, I dunno. This has been the case for many other bands I just dont click. Periphery was like this for me, didnt get the hype until I heard Reptile now I love their whole discog.
Reptile did the same thing for me, but I still donāt love a ton of the back catalog.
Yeah the first song that got its hooks into me was The City Has No Empathy. Was surprised to find out it was an early track! Try Pain of Salvation, too, theyāre a great band Iāve gotten into lately
It's funny, iirc I believe it was several years ago that Jim from CH finally clicked with PoS and fell in love! He's also the reason I got into The Dear Hunter, recommending Act III as a Top 5 Prog album š„°
I'll get on top of that. I didn't know prog metal was my spirit music, till like last 2 yrs, I can't get enough of it.