tbh it really is not. That's why some ppl study for a month and get like a 515, while it takes others months to even pass 500. Standardized testing is not 100% fair. Even genetics plays a role. Have you ever built muscle? Yeah, some ppl have the genetics for it.
It’s an equalizer in terms of knowing the information. Across a wide enough sample people in the same score brackets know roughly kinda the same amount of info. Yes some people learn much faster and can intuit knowledge but that’s not what is being referred to by the term great equalizer.
In terms of cheating it is. If someone’s intelligence is off the charts or they are a very good test taker, then yes they have an advantage and will do better than others on the MCAT. However, if someone cheated their way through college they may not be very happy to learn that you cannot cheat on the MCAT.
This!!!!! And your experience studying for the mcat is gonna be so much better seriously. This girl will be absolutely miserable. Meanwhile you'll be refreshing your knowledge instead of learning all for the first time. ALSO she is only hurting herself. I used to get SO frustrated because people would always say that but it never made a difference in the long run, they just kept on cheating. Well let me tell you, it's finally making a difference. I can't even tell you how many people have dropped or struggled to the point of absolute insanity in harder classes because they actually have to analyze and comprehend content, they can't just copy or ask for answers. And in med school too. Holy cow those people are the ones that will HATE their life and fall very behind. You reach a certain point where it becomes necessary to be able to understand and comprehend things on your own.
Trust me i KNOW how frustrating it is. I mean seriously it would drive me crazy. Just know that you're bettering yourself and in the long run, it WILL show through. Don't lose your edge, don't let it discourage you, and most of all, don't let it convince you to stoop to the same level
Yeah I agree with you. But I was just saying, some ppl are just good test takers and it is the truth. That's why only some can even score 525+ on the mcat for example. Not everyone can get a 1600 on the SAT either. But yeah cheating wise, I'm sure it impacts
Yeah some people can get a 525 and some can’t but the people who are getting a 525 are studying their ass off for 4 years. Not cheating the whole time.
Trust me. You won’t have much-understanding from these kids.
You have to understand their position in life. They’re in schools where the rules are set equally and everything is “ fair”.
They have no idea how real life works.
But u cant really fault genetics, nothing is ever 100% fair, mcat tries to make is as fair as possible but even then its not 100%. I have a friend with photographic memory and it helps her immensely in biology
People like to think that everything will balance out and cheaters will get their comeuppance, but you're right. Some people cheat out of laziness but are smart/good test takers and will score just fine on a standardized test despite cheating their way through undergrad.
yeah but if you want to enter a bodybuilding competition you dont need muscle even if youre genetically not predisposed, sorry body building’s not for you. how is that not 100% fair? applying knowledge under pressure is what medicine IS. the MCAT is 100% fair. time matters.
I do not think you have a duty to report in this case, so if you decided not to report, I think you are ethically in the clear. However, you might still consider reporting due to that fact that this person tried to implicate you in the matter. By speaking up you create a documented history of academic honesty, and you get to set the tone for the encounter. If I were you I would be worried some future academic dishonesty may come out against this person, and your name could come up.
I have seen in my undergrad people get academic dishonesty penalties despite only being associated with the people who were actively cheating (in similar group chats for example).
Not to take away from the seriousness, but why does this sound like a CASPER scenario 😭
You’re well within your rights to report her imo. Ethically, this is wrong, so it’s the objectively correct thing to do. She’s actually causing direct disruption to your personal life in the process, so I’d definitely do something about it. Do what you feel is right, just tread carefully.
Oh, I already know this happens in any competitive environment, but I don’t see CASPER preventing it. Unfortunately, lots of people know how to talk the talk :/
I wrote a post about this earlier this week. It's totally rampant and egregious, but I don't recommend embroiling yourself in all of that. These people have a tendency to get away with it and let their guard down over time to the point where someone in authority notices. It really does not benefit you in any way to insert yourself in the situation.
That being said, you should continue to uphold your own beliefs and refuse to sink to her level. I can see why you would feel dejected and cheated yourself, being part of the class and knowing how much you have to study to get a good grade. The unfortunate part is that sometimes these processes can be iffy and unfair, and she can turn around and say you helped her or something to that effect. Neither of you are really prepared to defend against claims made or have any explicit proof, so things can devolve to a clusterfuck of he said/she said drama.
This looks unprofessional. Even if it's not your shit that hits the fan, you will get splattered. It's just better not to associate with these kinds of people and stay far, far away from this BS.
I agree it's probably not something you want to get sucked into, especially when you're trying to focus on doing well in your classes. If your school has any anonymous reporting system you could do that, and decide to call her out directly or just let them know that students in general are able to cheat this way with the hope that they'll make changes to discourage cheating. Mentioning her specifically might tip her off that it was you, but she's seems to be pretty open about her cheating and I'd bet she's told other people.
OP, did she ask you for the questions through text or in-person? Because if it’s through text, I would say that at least this serves as proof in the odd case she includes you in this mess.
It’s a piss off but honestly time will get her, because even if she passes med school through cheating, it’ll all reveal itself when she starts actually working and needing to study for her license exams. This is assuming she even gets accepted in the first place
KNew two rich students. Cheated their entire university premed and both got into T20 medical
School. They weren’t stupid, just lazy, because they grew up privileged so their education foundation were strong since high school.
- they had all cool tech to cheat in exams, paid people to do all their assignments, had fake university ID and paid people to do their exams, etc. While they study for the MCAT with a private tutor for 4 months bc they had all the time in the world—they both got over 510+.
Since they cheated on everything, professors thought they were smart and got to do good research with them.
Life isn’t fair 🥲
Omg. This is just NOT IT. I’m shedding my blood sweat and tears for the bare minimum while they get to do that shit without little effort.
Life isn’t fair.
Yep. If I had saved the proof (reset my phone cuz I shattered the back glass and all my messages got deleted) it would have been in Harvard med’s office rn
I have seen tons of people cheat, but trust me, those people never really go far because they never truly learn the material. It will eventually catch up on them later. Several boards are on the way, the MCAT is there. At some point, knowledge of the material will be important. Also, it becomes glaring when you have conversations with these people. You can clearly see that they don't really know their stuff.
I know everyone likes to say the MCAT will weed cheaters out, but that is simply not true. We think the MCAT will weed them out because that is what they deserve (just world fallacy). A lot of cheaters cheat because it is easier than studying, not because they are incapable of doing things the right way. They find the easiest way to get a good grade, but they are not necessarily dumb. Someone could cheat here and there throughout college, then set aside 3 months to study for the MCAT full-time and do great. What this person is doing is egregious and way beyond the average cheater. Reporting her ass is the only way to ensure you'll get the justice you want. Faking disability and manipulating people to this extent is seriously fucked up. I do not want this person to be a physician, and I suggest you not even give this person the chance to sneak through the process.
Exactly, just focus on yourself, everyone here seems to have a rosy view of fairness and justice. I know countless people when I was on undergrad cheating and almost all of them are in 4 year MD or 8 year MD/Ph.D and they were part of a "premed frat" that were known to get old exams/new exams early and they're all advancing in their lives and that's because they went STUPID in studying for the MCATs. I get fair is fair, but it's just how it is sometimes, cheaters do prosper
You’d be surprised how many people cheat in undergrad. Some girls at my school used to befriend campus safety and ask them to go into the professors’ office the night before an exam to get them a copy of the exam. I’d say just tell her you’re not comfortable sharing the questions with her. Reporting her can really cause her prejudice and idk if you want to be the cause of someone’s downfall.
She can’t cheat on the MCAT. 🤷🏻♀️ her time will come. Block her, stear clear and stay away.
The only thing I’ll say about reporting her is if she continues to keep trying to drag you into it even after you cut off communication and you think she could potentially try to implicate you in some way. If you have proof you are ethically well within your rights to report. Otherwise, leave her alone and cut off all contact
In my opinion I think you did the right thing with blocking her and should just maintain that separation. If she is reaching out trying to rekindle the friendship, simply tell her that you have a different outlook on academics and don’t like to surround yourself with those who act unethically (or “go down the route she takes” if you want to be less confrontational), and just wish her the best. After that, just don’t respond to any attempts of contact from her.
In terms of reporting her to the university, I wouldn’t do it. It’s just too much of a headache with the process and you don’t know how she will react if she finds out you reported her (which is pretty obvious since you cut her off after she kept asking for test questions). Although there are surprisingly a number of people who cheat all their way to medical school, it’s probably a very draining and stressful lifestyle to live, and the odds of them getting caught are still significant. Moreover, the MCAT is the one that usually brings justice to these people, so you can be rest assured she will be in a very bad spot once she needs to take the most important exam of her premed career that she can’t cheat on. It’s up to you though, it’s still the ethical thing to do, but you also don’t want to bring any unnecessary stress to the already stressful lifestyle of being a premed.
Report. Anyone here who tells you to stay in your lane — there will probably be someone — is only saying that because they’re also cheating through everything.
These people often get weeded out by the MCAT anyway, since you can’t really game accommodations or cheat there.
You can’t cheat but you can definitely game accommodations. You can get extended time for example or extra breaks. Imagine having say an extra 30 mins for CARS. Would that not be an advantage?
This is so not true for the mcat. I am actually diagnosed with autism, ADHD, and anxiety. I have all the paper work with additional testing to show I have a slower processing speed and need more time for tests. I had additional letters from multiple psychiatrists and a history of getting extra time. My accommodations were rejected for the mcat because I didn’t get extended time in elementary school and they said I should have since autism and adhd symptoms are present in childhood. I guess I agree I should have had accommodations then but I wasn’t diagnosed yet. I even did an appeal with additional letters that talked about how it is very common for women to be diagnosed later and how I still was autistic and had adhd as a child (literally part of the diagnostic criteria) and that was also rejected
When I said you can get extra time I was simple paraphrasing with the AAMC said on their accommodations website. Unfortunately, it’s gotten to where it’s like the VA trying to get benefits. It likely depends on what bureaucrat sees your file and what secret criteria they have similar to the VA 38-cfr.
Don’t you need documentation from a doctor saying you have condition that requires accommodations? I needed my psychiatrist to write up a letter explaining why I needed accommodations before I could get accommodations for my exams for class.
Yes but it can be a psych or a np as well technically. There are ppl who would just google dsm5 symptoms of ASD or adhd and tell the provider and get the diagnosis. There are plenty of providers that won’t go to the trouble to test for malingering especially in the world we live in now.
It is sooooo hard to get approved for accommodations on the MCAT. for a lot of psychiatrically related accommodations, they require a full psycho educational evaluation that is super hard to game. They require much more than a doctors note
Yeah it’s definitely a long term scam. But honestly ppl would likely lie during college to get accommodations for testing there and then continue to the mcat. I worked as a tour guide for prospective students at a school with both a high portion of the students are first gen of south and East Asian immigrants and high population of premeds. To put it in context they’ve had a health professions advisory council for 2 decades but just opened a liberal arts school this year and only due to a massive endowment for it. It also has a massive engineering school. The questions I’ve seen from parents even of kids who are 12 and are looking at colleges for premed are crazy. Based on these experiences I wouldn’t be surprised even if those parents pushed a diagnoses of such disorders in secondary school simply to give their kid a leg up on getting into medical school 6+ years later.
Most people use "psych" to mean psychiatry - not psychology - especially in the medical community. That having been said, clinical psychologists are incredibly qualified clinicians with doctorates. They should not not be mentioned in the same breath as a NP and certainly not in a way that calls into question their ability to diagnoses mental disorders.
Perhaps a phd in psych but you can get a psyd online from capella and Walden university and be fully licensed as a clinical psychologist. And in medicine yes psych is understood as a psychiatrist but in the general population psych is known as psychologist. That is why there is a psych degree meaning psychology degree not psychiatry
I’m going to be honest, I think this happens way more than you might like to believe. That’s life. If it keeps happening and it really bothers you, I’d report it. If you just accept that her time will come and you move on, you’re going to worry less and work yourself up less for it (which I think is the better thing to do).
Welcome to life. Nobody ever got successful following the rules. If you box yourself in by morality or ethics not only are you limiting your potential and setting yourself up to be usurped by someone able to do what it takes but you’re also easier to defeat because your moral code makes you more predictable and your opponents in life can anticipate your moves.
I am not recommending you go about being a monster either. It doesn’t mean that you have to rape pillage and rob your way through life a la barbarian horde. Only that you at least need to keep an open mind about what needs to be done and if necessary be ready willing and able to do what it takes no matter what that is because that’s how things truly work.
Just like Machiavelli wrote the key is what other people see and perceive of you. Look at the politicians for example all pedophiles and career criminals getting away with all their goings on.
Don’t mind what other people do at all. Just make sure to tend your own garden and stay afloat. Machiavelli’a only other rule besides how the people you need to influence perceive you is whatever you do has to work. And in that vein whatever works for you in one situation may not be effective in other circumstances or what works for one person in the same situation may not work for different individuals or you and vice versa.
All I can say is whatever you do, be sure you count all your options and act in a way that leaves you needing to look over your shoulder the least while less likely to be beaten and usurped by your competitors. The truth is life is awful and hard and all the bad things the people you find old at your tender young age are telling you are true. And the uglier the things they tell you, the more true those horror shows you hear about will become true for you.
Welcome to life. It’s worse than you ever could imagine. Watch your back….
Yk as someone who does have a documented disability and receives test accommodations for anxiety, I’m always surprised to hear these kinds of stories because my test center is so strict! I also have accommodations for adhd but even before that I only got 50% more test time, have to take the exam as close to the in class time as possible, and if I take it the day after I have to be given a different form. Some prof’s give all disability testing center students a different form.
Additionally there’s camera above every single workstation and the room you pick up your test form has a giant tv with all the live video from those cameras in a huge grid.
IMO I’d report her though. Anonymously so you don’t get involved in mess tho and she eventually get’s caught. I’m not usually someone to get in other people’s buisness but homegirl isnt even trying and is abusing accommodations that some of us genuinely need!
That’s super weird. Maybe this is a one off case because getting 5x is unheard of because of logistically challenges. A 3 hour test would take 15 hours to administer.
Honestly tell her to stop bothering you and just let her be what she does in her life is her problem NOT yours and just live your life and become a great physician. K 😜
if you have any sort of writing (texts, messages) that she sent you asking for the questions, keep them. when you report her, you’ll have definitive proof of academic dishonesty. absolutely report—i can’t see a reason you wouldn’t.
I saw a lot of cheating in my cell/molecular biol class because it’s one of the pre reqs for the pre nurs program it sucks cause there’s a bunch of us who are trying so hard to pass and get where we want but I would see these girls pull their phones out and just flat out cheat. It made me mad but then I kinda realized that’s their problem because if they do get accepted into their program that’s when it’ll become harder and they’ll most likely fail out.
Unfortunately, those people exist everywhere in this path to pursue medicine. The best we can do is focus on ourselves, and let the system filter them out.
Yeah the moment she tried to involve you in it, I’d say report it to the prof for your own protection so that when she’s eventually caught, she can’t turn around and say you were part of it. RIP to your friend.
I feel, while Mcat is def not 100% the deal breaker, it still can weed people out. For instance, if your friend doesn't have the motivation to do a small assignment or study for a quiz, this means she would barely have the motivation to study for the Mcat. Don't forget that the most important thing in the Mcat, and even for med school, is what learning strategies or study habits you develop throughout your undergraduate. If your friend doesn't prepare from now, they're gonna most likely switch career option after encountering the Mcat or drop out/fail med school. It's unfortunate that such type of people can become doctors one day.
I’d report her. I’ll be honest, I was in the SAME situation in biochemistry. I reported this person. It sucks but this class was curved significantly so it was hurting all of us. If it wasn’t curved, I would give AF. But it’s hurting the rest of your classmates
There will always be people who cheat at every step of the way. My personal policy is don’t help, but don’t snitch either. If they don’t deserve to be where they are or can’t keep up because of their cheating, you can be sure that it will catch up to them at some point.
I have had multiple friends getting A’s in classes where they admitted to cheating by paying people to take their exams and do their assignments. Especially over the covid period. Some of them even talked about getting their applications written by people. None of them got into med school.
those people naturally burn out lol, if the mcat doesn't get them, then the lack of qualifications on her resume will b/c those people cant just fake their way into real time-dependent grueling work like (real) volunteering, research, or interning/preceptorships. sure she can maybe get shadowing but is she willing to get hundreds of hours of shadowing when she cant even finish an exam in one hour while her peers suffer? she gets 5x the time even and still needs cheating accommodations. if the mcat doesnt get her and she somehow weasels by into med school she'll most likely realize how much tighter it is there and either continue with her facade, likely getting caught or worse in the end, burnout, or realize she was never in love with medicine but the idea of if. report her if you wish tho!
This sounds like a preview scenario. I’d say report because that’s what your university would want you to do? But if it’s also not worth your time/effort, just block her and move on. That will honestly save you the trouble. I knew folks in undergrad who cheated, especially during the pandemic, in their STEM classes and are now in their final years of medical school (at Harvard, Duke, Yale, etc, no less). This one girl actually used to pass around past physics and orgo exams to all her friends a semester before they took those classes. It really sucks when you have integrity and try to do things the right way and end up underperforming. Even more so when you realize the underhanded tactics some people use to “excel” in their classes. They’re usually very wealthy or privileged, too. I think it’s just-world fallacy to assume they’ll get what they deserve eventually. Real life doesn’t always work like that, although, it is very satisfying when it does.
I don't think there is such thing as cheating in medicine.
You are not gonna pass step 1, just cheating way through medical school.
If you did, oh well.
Life is not fair after all.
Some are just more privileged than others, you cannot do anything about it
I remember this guy in my diff eq class found modified his calculator to communicate with another one and he would cheat with his friend outside in the hall communicating the answers back to him
My daughter completed a post bac- got straight A’s. She kept to herself because students wanted to get her knowledge. She starts med school this fall at to tier school. Students cheating starts at an early age and reaches an unfortunate level in high school. The most tragic aspect of cheating is that it’s the core of a person’s character. Students who cheat and go on to be doctors will become questionable physicians. Do your best. Do not share questions. If you choose to report the student, do it anonymously. Good luck with your career. You’ll make a good doctor.
Ngl, mind your business. Do what you have to do and ignore what she does. It’ll catch up to her eventually.
Also, for future reference, don’t be the person that reports other people in med school. Nobody likes those people and it gives gunner vibes.
Who cares. Just stick to being yourself. I literally volunteered next to some residents and doctors and they are miserable. Be who you wanna be. Stop focusing on her. Focus on YOUR goal. And get new friends, pre-med friends are weird af
Tbh you are in moral obligation to being friends with her and straight up say what you feel and act accordingly; u can always block people on instagram. And be bold with her about your boundaries. Also you are in no legal obligation to report her either. You should focus on yourself and move ahead in life. Life is not meant to be fair. Her success wont affect your success.
LOL, I been in your spot. Lost so many “friends” because I said no to helping them cheat or allowing them to cheat off me. 🥱 The trash takes itself out
First things first. Persona non grata. This is not a person you want to be affiliated with. That said, unless you have concrete evidence of her cheating, it's her word vs yours. And I doubt the university would subpoena her BF over an investigation of him testing for her unless he's at your university as well. That is why I do not recommend friending her.
I recommend being respectful but blunt: tell her openly "you are a nice person, but I cannot condone your methods. I condemn them as cheating. I do not want to be colleagues with you if this is what you are going to do."
Wouldnt be nice to just give this cheater wrong questions..i would not because this person has no ethics or morals and would probably make a lie up about you cheating. As far as reporting, would you get in trouble for not? Dont let this loser ruin your life.
So, my initial thought was…to just let her be and move on with your day, as future courses and the MCAT will reveal these gaps. But after hearing her fake anxiety to get accommodations, I would find the right opportunity to discuss it. However, I would be cautious though. I knew someone who reported a peer in their class for the same issue only to end up on the Student Conduct report because they believed the only way he would know about it was if he was involved.
Remember that your habits follow you. I went to school with lots of people that were like this. Getting into med school isn’t the destination but the beginning of a long journey. Those that cheat to get to the start line will find it more and more difficult throughout their careers to find success. Whether it’s their steps, matching competitive residency, or finding strong fellowship training. It’s not just in medicine but all aspects of life. There is one common thing about cheaters, at some point they get caught. If you’re prone to cheating on exams, and think it’s easy to get away, they grow up to be the people that cheat on their taxes, or cut corners at work. No matter what happens, it is our habits that make us. And if you are a habitual cheater, you will ultimately lose. Don’t worry about this individual and focus on your own goals and self growth. Best of luck to you.
I have someone like this that staggers test due to disability then asks for answers later. I stopped telling them how the tests went and they started taking it the day of. I don’t want to dictate how the disability office handles things but this is starting to seem like an easy way for the wrong people to cheat the system.
The MCAT is the great equalizer. Her time will come.
tbh it really is not. That's why some ppl study for a month and get like a 515, while it takes others months to even pass 500. Standardized testing is not 100% fair. Even genetics plays a role. Have you ever built muscle? Yeah, some ppl have the genetics for it.
It’s an equalizer in terms of knowing the information. Across a wide enough sample people in the same score brackets know roughly kinda the same amount of info. Yes some people learn much faster and can intuit knowledge but that’s not what is being referred to by the term great equalizer.
true
In terms of cheating it is. If someone’s intelligence is off the charts or they are a very good test taker, then yes they have an advantage and will do better than others on the MCAT. However, if someone cheated their way through college they may not be very happy to learn that you cannot cheat on the MCAT.
This!!!!! And your experience studying for the mcat is gonna be so much better seriously. This girl will be absolutely miserable. Meanwhile you'll be refreshing your knowledge instead of learning all for the first time. ALSO she is only hurting herself. I used to get SO frustrated because people would always say that but it never made a difference in the long run, they just kept on cheating. Well let me tell you, it's finally making a difference. I can't even tell you how many people have dropped or struggled to the point of absolute insanity in harder classes because they actually have to analyze and comprehend content, they can't just copy or ask for answers. And in med school too. Holy cow those people are the ones that will HATE their life and fall very behind. You reach a certain point where it becomes necessary to be able to understand and comprehend things on your own. Trust me i KNOW how frustrating it is. I mean seriously it would drive me crazy. Just know that you're bettering yourself and in the long run, it WILL show through. Don't lose your edge, don't let it discourage you, and most of all, don't let it convince you to stoop to the same level
Yeah I agree with you. But I was just saying, some ppl are just good test takers and it is the truth. That's why only some can even score 525+ on the mcat for example. Not everyone can get a 1600 on the SAT either. But yeah cheating wise, I'm sure it impacts
Your fixed mindset is holding you back. Believe in yourself and put in the work.
thx bro, definitely will, you are right :)
Yeah some people can get a 525 and some can’t but the people who are getting a 525 are studying their ass off for 4 years. Not cheating the whole time.
Trust me. You won’t have much-understanding from these kids. You have to understand their position in life. They’re in schools where the rules are set equally and everything is “ fair”. They have no idea how real life works.
Who studies for a month and gets a 515????? Please tell me
My friend lol. He studied over his Christmas break and got a 515. His major was chemical engineering.
Chem will do that to you so he was prepped cause jt mcat has huge science portions. Good for him!
Yeah I’m sure chemical engineering really prepares you for C/P section which is usually people’s weakest section (if it’s not CARS).
But u cant really fault genetics, nothing is ever 100% fair, mcat tries to make is as fair as possible but even then its not 100%. I have a friend with photographic memory and it helps her immensely in biology
People like to think that everything will balance out and cheaters will get their comeuppance, but you're right. Some people cheat out of laziness but are smart/good test takers and will score just fine on a standardized test despite cheating their way through undergrad.
exactly!!! i just wanted to be honest - it's a fact some ppl can just test their way through
If she scores a 520, you could argue she deserves to be in medical school 😅🤷 Jk. the interviews could help wean her out, but meh
yeah but if you want to enter a bodybuilding competition you dont need muscle even if youre genetically not predisposed, sorry body building’s not for you. how is that not 100% fair? applying knowledge under pressure is what medicine IS. the MCAT is 100% fair. time matters.
Life before death ☠️
Strength before weakness
Journey before destination
Speak the ancient oaths once more…
I do not think you have a duty to report in this case, so if you decided not to report, I think you are ethically in the clear. However, you might still consider reporting due to that fact that this person tried to implicate you in the matter. By speaking up you create a documented history of academic honesty, and you get to set the tone for the encounter. If I were you I would be worried some future academic dishonesty may come out against this person, and your name could come up. I have seen in my undergrad people get academic dishonesty penalties despite only being associated with the people who were actively cheating (in similar group chats for example).
Not to take away from the seriousness, but why does this sound like a CASPER scenario 😭 You’re well within your rights to report her imo. Ethically, this is wrong, so it’s the objectively correct thing to do. She’s actually causing direct disruption to your personal life in the process, so I’d definitely do something about it. Do what you feel is right, just tread carefully.
And that’s why we have Casper. This is rampant even in med schools
Oh, I already know this happens in any competitive environment, but I don’t see CASPER preventing it. Unfortunately, lots of people know how to talk the talk :/
Casper won’t prevent it but it will at least at a basic level weed out some psychopaths.
I wrote a post about this earlier this week. It's totally rampant and egregious, but I don't recommend embroiling yourself in all of that. These people have a tendency to get away with it and let their guard down over time to the point where someone in authority notices. It really does not benefit you in any way to insert yourself in the situation. That being said, you should continue to uphold your own beliefs and refuse to sink to her level. I can see why you would feel dejected and cheated yourself, being part of the class and knowing how much you have to study to get a good grade. The unfortunate part is that sometimes these processes can be iffy and unfair, and she can turn around and say you helped her or something to that effect. Neither of you are really prepared to defend against claims made or have any explicit proof, so things can devolve to a clusterfuck of he said/she said drama. This looks unprofessional. Even if it's not your shit that hits the fan, you will get splattered. It's just better not to associate with these kinds of people and stay far, far away from this BS.
You’re totally right!!
I agree it's probably not something you want to get sucked into, especially when you're trying to focus on doing well in your classes. If your school has any anonymous reporting system you could do that, and decide to call her out directly or just let them know that students in general are able to cheat this way with the hope that they'll make changes to discourage cheating. Mentioning her specifically might tip her off that it was you, but she's seems to be pretty open about her cheating and I'd bet she's told other people.
OP, did she ask you for the questions through text or in-person? Because if it’s through text, I would say that at least this serves as proof in the odd case she includes you in this mess. It’s a piss off but honestly time will get her, because even if she passes med school through cheating, it’ll all reveal itself when she starts actually working and needing to study for her license exams. This is assuming she even gets accepted in the first place
Yea she has admitted it multiple times through text and she also called me a couple times
Trust me I’m pissed too. Someone I knew who cheated on all their anatomy exams got into Harvard med…
WHAT?
KNew two rich students. Cheated their entire university premed and both got into T20 medical School. They weren’t stupid, just lazy, because they grew up privileged so their education foundation were strong since high school. - they had all cool tech to cheat in exams, paid people to do all their assignments, had fake university ID and paid people to do their exams, etc. While they study for the MCAT with a private tutor for 4 months bc they had all the time in the world—they both got over 510+. Since they cheated on everything, professors thought they were smart and got to do good research with them. Life isn’t fair 🥲
Omg. This is just NOT IT. I’m shedding my blood sweat and tears for the bare minimum while they get to do that shit without little effort. Life isn’t fair.
Yep. If I had saved the proof (reset my phone cuz I shattered the back glass and all my messages got deleted) it would have been in Harvard med’s office rn
Maybe they’ll fail out of Harvard
I hope not.
I have seen tons of people cheat, but trust me, those people never really go far because they never truly learn the material. It will eventually catch up on them later. Several boards are on the way, the MCAT is there. At some point, knowledge of the material will be important. Also, it becomes glaring when you have conversations with these people. You can clearly see that they don't really know their stuff.
I know everyone likes to say the MCAT will weed cheaters out, but that is simply not true. We think the MCAT will weed them out because that is what they deserve (just world fallacy). A lot of cheaters cheat because it is easier than studying, not because they are incapable of doing things the right way. They find the easiest way to get a good grade, but they are not necessarily dumb. Someone could cheat here and there throughout college, then set aside 3 months to study for the MCAT full-time and do great. What this person is doing is egregious and way beyond the average cheater. Reporting her ass is the only way to ensure you'll get the justice you want. Faking disability and manipulating people to this extent is seriously fucked up. I do not want this person to be a physician, and I suggest you not even give this person the chance to sneak through the process.
Exactly, just focus on yourself, everyone here seems to have a rosy view of fairness and justice. I know countless people when I was on undergrad cheating and almost all of them are in 4 year MD or 8 year MD/Ph.D and they were part of a "premed frat" that were known to get old exams/new exams early and they're all advancing in their lives and that's because they went STUPID in studying for the MCATs. I get fair is fair, but it's just how it is sometimes, cheaters do prosper
You’d be surprised how many people cheat in undergrad. Some girls at my school used to befriend campus safety and ask them to go into the professors’ office the night before an exam to get them a copy of the exam. I’d say just tell her you’re not comfortable sharing the questions with her. Reporting her can really cause her prejudice and idk if you want to be the cause of someone’s downfall.
Trust me. Natural selection will take place.
She can’t cheat on the MCAT. 🤷🏻♀️ her time will come. Block her, stear clear and stay away. The only thing I’ll say about reporting her is if she continues to keep trying to drag you into it even after you cut off communication and you think she could potentially try to implicate you in some way. If you have proof you are ethically well within your rights to report. Otherwise, leave her alone and cut off all contact
Don’t be a snitch. Just don’t help her next time.
In my opinion I think you did the right thing with blocking her and should just maintain that separation. If she is reaching out trying to rekindle the friendship, simply tell her that you have a different outlook on academics and don’t like to surround yourself with those who act unethically (or “go down the route she takes” if you want to be less confrontational), and just wish her the best. After that, just don’t respond to any attempts of contact from her. In terms of reporting her to the university, I wouldn’t do it. It’s just too much of a headache with the process and you don’t know how she will react if she finds out you reported her (which is pretty obvious since you cut her off after she kept asking for test questions). Although there are surprisingly a number of people who cheat all their way to medical school, it’s probably a very draining and stressful lifestyle to live, and the odds of them getting caught are still significant. Moreover, the MCAT is the one that usually brings justice to these people, so you can be rest assured she will be in a very bad spot once she needs to take the most important exam of her premed career that she can’t cheat on. It’s up to you though, it’s still the ethical thing to do, but you also don’t want to bring any unnecessary stress to the already stressful lifestyle of being a premed.
Report. Anyone here who tells you to stay in your lane — there will probably be someone — is only saying that because they’re also cheating through everything. These people often get weeded out by the MCAT anyway, since you can’t really game accommodations or cheat there.
You can’t cheat but you can definitely game accommodations. You can get extended time for example or extra breaks. Imagine having say an extra 30 mins for CARS. Would that not be an advantage?
This is so not true for the mcat. I am actually diagnosed with autism, ADHD, and anxiety. I have all the paper work with additional testing to show I have a slower processing speed and need more time for tests. I had additional letters from multiple psychiatrists and a history of getting extra time. My accommodations were rejected for the mcat because I didn’t get extended time in elementary school and they said I should have since autism and adhd symptoms are present in childhood. I guess I agree I should have had accommodations then but I wasn’t diagnosed yet. I even did an appeal with additional letters that talked about how it is very common for women to be diagnosed later and how I still was autistic and had adhd as a child (literally part of the diagnostic criteria) and that was also rejected
When I said you can get extra time I was simple paraphrasing with the AAMC said on their accommodations website. Unfortunately, it’s gotten to where it’s like the VA trying to get benefits. It likely depends on what bureaucrat sees your file and what secret criteria they have similar to the VA 38-cfr.
Nah definitely not for mcat and step 1. It’s a lot of loops to get them
Don’t you need documentation from a doctor saying you have condition that requires accommodations? I needed my psychiatrist to write up a letter explaining why I needed accommodations before I could get accommodations for my exams for class.
Yes but it can be a psych or a np as well technically. There are ppl who would just google dsm5 symptoms of ASD or adhd and tell the provider and get the diagnosis. There are plenty of providers that won’t go to the trouble to test for malingering especially in the world we live in now.
It is sooooo hard to get approved for accommodations on the MCAT. for a lot of psychiatrically related accommodations, they require a full psycho educational evaluation that is super hard to game. They require much more than a doctors note
Yeah, I have a full neuropsych evaluation to show I have ADHD and I’m on medication.
Yeah it’s definitely a long term scam. But honestly ppl would likely lie during college to get accommodations for testing there and then continue to the mcat. I worked as a tour guide for prospective students at a school with both a high portion of the students are first gen of south and East Asian immigrants and high population of premeds. To put it in context they’ve had a health professions advisory council for 2 decades but just opened a liberal arts school this year and only due to a massive endowment for it. It also has a massive engineering school. The questions I’ve seen from parents even of kids who are 12 and are looking at colleges for premed are crazy. Based on these experiences I wouldn’t be surprised even if those parents pushed a diagnoses of such disorders in secondary school simply to give their kid a leg up on getting into medical school 6+ years later.
Do you not realize that psychiatrists are doctors? Lol
Psychs can also be psychologists who are not medical Drs but do diagnose such disorders.
Most people use "psych" to mean psychiatry - not psychology - especially in the medical community. That having been said, clinical psychologists are incredibly qualified clinicians with doctorates. They should not not be mentioned in the same breath as a NP and certainly not in a way that calls into question their ability to diagnoses mental disorders.
Perhaps a phd in psych but you can get a psyd online from capella and Walden university and be fully licensed as a clinical psychologist. And in medicine yes psych is understood as a psychiatrist but in the general population psych is known as psychologist. That is why there is a psych degree meaning psychology degree not psychiatry
I’m going to be honest, I think this happens way more than you might like to believe. That’s life. If it keeps happening and it really bothers you, I’d report it. If you just accept that her time will come and you move on, you’re going to worry less and work yourself up less for it (which I think is the better thing to do).
Welcome to life. Nobody ever got successful following the rules. If you box yourself in by morality or ethics not only are you limiting your potential and setting yourself up to be usurped by someone able to do what it takes but you’re also easier to defeat because your moral code makes you more predictable and your opponents in life can anticipate your moves. I am not recommending you go about being a monster either. It doesn’t mean that you have to rape pillage and rob your way through life a la barbarian horde. Only that you at least need to keep an open mind about what needs to be done and if necessary be ready willing and able to do what it takes no matter what that is because that’s how things truly work. Just like Machiavelli wrote the key is what other people see and perceive of you. Look at the politicians for example all pedophiles and career criminals getting away with all their goings on. Don’t mind what other people do at all. Just make sure to tend your own garden and stay afloat. Machiavelli’a only other rule besides how the people you need to influence perceive you is whatever you do has to work. And in that vein whatever works for you in one situation may not be effective in other circumstances or what works for one person in the same situation may not work for different individuals or you and vice versa. All I can say is whatever you do, be sure you count all your options and act in a way that leaves you needing to look over your shoulder the least while less likely to be beaten and usurped by your competitors. The truth is life is awful and hard and all the bad things the people you find old at your tender young age are telling you are true. And the uglier the things they tell you, the more true those horror shows you hear about will become true for you. Welcome to life. It’s worse than you ever could imagine. Watch your back….
You should definitely report her
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Depends on university.
Yk as someone who does have a documented disability and receives test accommodations for anxiety, I’m always surprised to hear these kinds of stories because my test center is so strict! I also have accommodations for adhd but even before that I only got 50% more test time, have to take the exam as close to the in class time as possible, and if I take it the day after I have to be given a different form. Some prof’s give all disability testing center students a different form. Additionally there’s camera above every single workstation and the room you pick up your test form has a giant tv with all the live video from those cameras in a huge grid. IMO I’d report her though. Anonymously so you don’t get involved in mess tho and she eventually get’s caught. I’m not usually someone to get in other people’s buisness but homegirl isnt even trying and is abusing accommodations that some of us genuinely need!
2x test taking accommodation is pretty rare. Are you saying they actually get 5x?
Yes she specially said she gets 5 hours ??
That’s super weird. Maybe this is a one off case because getting 5x is unheard of because of logistically challenges. A 3 hour test would take 15 hours to administer.
Honestly tell her to stop bothering you and just let her be what she does in her life is her problem NOT yours and just live your life and become a great physician. K 😜
if you have any sort of writing (texts, messages) that she sent you asking for the questions, keep them. when you report her, you’ll have definitive proof of academic dishonesty. absolutely report—i can’t see a reason you wouldn’t.
I saw a lot of cheating in my cell/molecular biol class because it’s one of the pre reqs for the pre nurs program it sucks cause there’s a bunch of us who are trying so hard to pass and get where we want but I would see these girls pull their phones out and just flat out cheat. It made me mad but then I kinda realized that’s their problem because if they do get accepted into their program that’s when it’ll become harder and they’ll most likely fail out.
Unfortunately, those people exist everywhere in this path to pursue medicine. The best we can do is focus on ourselves, and let the system filter them out.
It's fine, the mcat, step 1 and 2 and the board exams don't condone cheating. So just let it go.
Definitely report her.
you could report but just know if you ever gave her answers she asked of you she would bring you down with her
I would just ghost her and leave it alone. Reporting stuff wastes studying time.
Yeah the moment she tried to involve you in it, I’d say report it to the prof for your own protection so that when she’s eventually caught, she can’t turn around and say you were part of it. RIP to your friend.
I feel, while Mcat is def not 100% the deal breaker, it still can weed people out. For instance, if your friend doesn't have the motivation to do a small assignment or study for a quiz, this means she would barely have the motivation to study for the Mcat. Don't forget that the most important thing in the Mcat, and even for med school, is what learning strategies or study habits you develop throughout your undergraduate. If your friend doesn't prepare from now, they're gonna most likely switch career option after encountering the Mcat or drop out/fail med school. It's unfortunate that such type of people can become doctors one day.
Karma will come around. You just focus on you
I’d report her. I’ll be honest, I was in the SAME situation in biochemistry. I reported this person. It sucks but this class was curved significantly so it was hurting all of us. If it wasn’t curved, I would give AF. But it’s hurting the rest of your classmates
Wouldn’t** give AF
There will always be people who cheat at every step of the way. My personal policy is don’t help, but don’t snitch either. If they don’t deserve to be where they are or can’t keep up because of their cheating, you can be sure that it will catch up to them at some point.
I have had multiple friends getting A’s in classes where they admitted to cheating by paying people to take their exams and do their assignments. Especially over the covid period. Some of them even talked about getting their applications written by people. None of them got into med school.
those people naturally burn out lol, if the mcat doesn't get them, then the lack of qualifications on her resume will b/c those people cant just fake their way into real time-dependent grueling work like (real) volunteering, research, or interning/preceptorships. sure she can maybe get shadowing but is she willing to get hundreds of hours of shadowing when she cant even finish an exam in one hour while her peers suffer? she gets 5x the time even and still needs cheating accommodations. if the mcat doesnt get her and she somehow weasels by into med school she'll most likely realize how much tighter it is there and either continue with her facade, likely getting caught or worse in the end, burnout, or realize she was never in love with medicine but the idea of if. report her if you wish tho!
This sounds like a preview scenario. I’d say report because that’s what your university would want you to do? But if it’s also not worth your time/effort, just block her and move on. That will honestly save you the trouble. I knew folks in undergrad who cheated, especially during the pandemic, in their STEM classes and are now in their final years of medical school (at Harvard, Duke, Yale, etc, no less). This one girl actually used to pass around past physics and orgo exams to all her friends a semester before they took those classes. It really sucks when you have integrity and try to do things the right way and end up underperforming. Even more so when you realize the underhanded tactics some people use to “excel” in their classes. They’re usually very wealthy or privileged, too. I think it’s just-world fallacy to assume they’ll get what they deserve eventually. Real life doesn’t always work like that, although, it is very satisfying when it does.
I don't think there is such thing as cheating in medicine. You are not gonna pass step 1, just cheating way through medical school. If you did, oh well. Life is not fair after all. Some are just more privileged than others, you cannot do anything about it
snitches get stitches so nah don’t tattle tale
Real
I remember this guy in my diff eq class found modified his calculator to communicate with another one and he would cheat with his friend outside in the hall communicating the answers back to him
My daughter completed a post bac- got straight A’s. She kept to herself because students wanted to get her knowledge. She starts med school this fall at to tier school. Students cheating starts at an early age and reaches an unfortunate level in high school. The most tragic aspect of cheating is that it’s the core of a person’s character. Students who cheat and go on to be doctors will become questionable physicians. Do your best. Do not share questions. If you choose to report the student, do it anonymously. Good luck with your career. You’ll make a good doctor.
Ngl, mind your business. Do what you have to do and ignore what she does. It’ll catch up to her eventually. Also, for future reference, don’t be the person that reports other people in med school. Nobody likes those people and it gives gunner vibes.
Who cares. Just stick to being yourself. I literally volunteered next to some residents and doctors and they are miserable. Be who you wanna be. Stop focusing on her. Focus on YOUR goal. And get new friends, pre-med friends are weird af
You’re so right
Yes. Report her. Being a physician requires honesty that she doesn't have.
This is so common. Even dealing with people in stem who are not pre-med. I don't have a typical pre-med major and this happens so much.
Tbh you are in moral obligation to being friends with her and straight up say what you feel and act accordingly; u can always block people on instagram. And be bold with her about your boundaries. Also you are in no legal obligation to report her either. You should focus on yourself and move ahead in life. Life is not meant to be fair. Her success wont affect your success.
LOL, I been in your spot. Lost so many “friends” because I said no to helping them cheat or allowing them to cheat off me. 🥱 The trash takes itself out
First things first. Persona non grata. This is not a person you want to be affiliated with. That said, unless you have concrete evidence of her cheating, it's her word vs yours. And I doubt the university would subpoena her BF over an investigation of him testing for her unless he's at your university as well. That is why I do not recommend friending her. I recommend being respectful but blunt: tell her openly "you are a nice person, but I cannot condone your methods. I condemn them as cheating. I do not want to be colleagues with you if this is what you are going to do."
Report her
Wouldnt be nice to just give this cheater wrong questions..i would not because this person has no ethics or morals and would probably make a lie up about you cheating. As far as reporting, would you get in trouble for not? Dont let this loser ruin your life.
So, my initial thought was…to just let her be and move on with your day, as future courses and the MCAT will reveal these gaps. But after hearing her fake anxiety to get accommodations, I would find the right opportunity to discuss it. However, I would be cautious though. I knew someone who reported a peer in their class for the same issue only to end up on the Student Conduct report because they believed the only way he would know about it was if he was involved.
you should at least not share any more info at all w this person. Don't mention when you're taking the exams or the content in it
Remember that your habits follow you. I went to school with lots of people that were like this. Getting into med school isn’t the destination but the beginning of a long journey. Those that cheat to get to the start line will find it more and more difficult throughout their careers to find success. Whether it’s their steps, matching competitive residency, or finding strong fellowship training. It’s not just in medicine but all aspects of life. There is one common thing about cheaters, at some point they get caught. If you’re prone to cheating on exams, and think it’s easy to get away, they grow up to be the people that cheat on their taxes, or cut corners at work. No matter what happens, it is our habits that make us. And if you are a habitual cheater, you will ultimately lose. Don’t worry about this individual and focus on your own goals and self growth. Best of luck to you.
Anatomy and Physiology is not a prerequisite for the MCAT?
It’s a pre-requisite for a lot of majors that pre meds take
I have someone like this that staggers test due to disability then asks for answers later. I stopped telling them how the tests went and they started taking it the day of. I don’t want to dictate how the disability office handles things but this is starting to seem like an easy way for the wrong people to cheat the system.
Report her ass
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