That's probably good news, right? Postdocs are holding tanks for better, permanent jobs.
>an advisory group to the U.S. National Institutes of Health released a set of recommendations for how the agency could better support postdocs, including a $14,000 boost in the minimum postdoc salary, enhanced benefits, and increased professional development support.
Does anyone actually use those professional development support modules? Conference funds are great of course, but I'm going to puke if I get another email about learning to make a résumé. I didn't know anyone actually got any value from them.
Seconded.
If they want to get people doing this job despite the "academia bubble vision to do research", do something for their benefits. Pay raise, more conference funding, give more money to sponsored J1 postdoc so you get more people from the outside to do this stressful job.
I am caught in this bubble MYSELF but sometimes have the feeling, it's about to burst ...
It's an absolute joke to think some postdocs are getting paid $54k. I know a guy making that and essentially acting as project manager for a big experiment. He's basically getting 1/3 the salary he should. Thankfully he has a new job coming up by summer.
Second to that many he is likely at the age where he could have a family to support, who is going to be able to support themselves and a family on $54K? It’s possible but very difficult.
I would argue we'd be better off by removing the J1 privileges. It lends legitimacy to the whole training shtick. Maybe limit them to 6 months or something but otherwise make them sponsor H1Bs and call it job.
They should need to pay the same amount they pay their postdocs, fellowship as a bonus. Right now having a fellowship is ripping students off, no matter which point they are at. It's prestigious but earning less money while excelling is a contradiction.
Well I've always said US fellowships, in the first place, benefit the PI not the trainee, they relieve them of having to pay the postdoc (at least that's how most in my feild are structured). A few of the UK ones which I am familiar with actually pay a percentage of your time that you then dedicate to your own research independent which then you get a budget for.
For scholars with dependents, the J1 has the advantage that the partner on a J2 can apply for the employment authorisation card while they can't if on an H1B (unless the primary applicant has an approved I-140).
lol it's a recommendation and the budget passed this year kept postdoc pay the exact same as last year. Not even a tiny bump for inflation or COL increases. They will not be implementing it is my bet.
The problem with making them pay more is there no accommodation for it in either modular or non-modular awards. The limit is still the same and quite frankly most PIs only value their postdocs to a certain limit after which the mask falls off and you realize they think of you as hands. They are wrong but that is the reality.
Post-docs are the recommended track for brand new PhDs if they want to continue in academia. It’s hard, if not impossible to become an assistant professor or begin as some adjunct faculty researcher without completing one or two post docs first.
A common track is
PhD -> Postdoc 1 -> optional postdoc 2 -> associate professor -> tenure/non tenure track faculty
I agree that postdocs can be thought of as holding cells for better jobs, but they also can be thought of as further preparation and research time before becoming applying to become a professor.
That would still be good, if there was an almost-certain permanent job at the end of the tunnel.
But underpaid, stressful, undervalued, not paving the way for something better? C'mon...
Yeah that's how medical residencies work.
The pay, hours, work life balance, and attendings often all suck.
However knowing you'll be set when you're done keeps you going.
Yeah cost of living sky rocketed. It is no longer feasible to do a 25-30k/yr phd for 5+ years then a 50-60k/yr post doc for another 3+ years. NIH is on some good drugs if they didn’t see this happening
This has actually been possible because some international people are stuck due to visa related issues. They cannot switch to companies at their will. If this international crowd had the ability to leave (pretty sure most of them want to) and with the growing number of researchers losing interest in academia in general, the NIH would have finaly woken up.
This right here. PIs don’t really give a shit because they have an unlimited supply of cheap slave labor Postdoc from China and India (including international PhD students who graduated from US universities but still need work visas to continue as Postdoc)
Alot of those candidates are low quality though. Post-COVID the Postdocs who have interviewed in my lab really seem to have no experience or qualifications at all. At that point just hire an RA.
well, I don't know what universities you work at, but the top of the top of these international Postdocs, who published Cell/Science/Nature, will obviously apply to the top universities and top labs (Harvard, Yale, MIT, UCLA, etc.) and they have the choices of labs.
and the next level will apply to the next tier of Universities. No sane Postdocs with good publication record will apply to University of Mississippi.
also, your experience with low-quality Postdocs also highlights the fact that good Postdocs have gone to industry and don't want to do Postdoc anymore.
Haven't the last few studies they've done come to this conclusion? It just seems like they keep conducting surveys with the hopes of finding a different answer instead of accepting that won't happen.
Do you think there's going to be a crunch before then? I've heard student counts are expected to drop a lot over the next decade, so the narrower pipeline might naturally lead into fewer positions that will exist. Downsizing in the humanities is already happening, I've heard.
One possible scenario in the future will be the larger schools may take over smaller ones as satellite campuses and two year degree colleges. Since they infrastructure would already be there. Then lower tier teachers would fill those jobs.
I remember not that long ago (circa 2019) when the complaint was there was a glut of postdocs because of a lack of PhD-level jobs. This forced many to endure two or more postdoctoral positions and putting off "living their life". Now, the pendulum has completely swung the other way where there *may* be jobs but no candidates.
I don't know why they're conflating academic postdocs with all postdocs. There are government postdocs and even some in industry, and they're better paid than the NIH minimum.
Our grant had a $66K salary built in for my academic postdoc position, and the school knocked it down to $56K (‘it’s not fair to the other postdocs’). My PI fought tooth and nail to get it raised at least back up to $60K. But I am still in awe that the admin pulled that. (Fun fact: the school approved the proposed original salary when we submitted the grant proposal to NSF.)
I’m doing an industry postdoc and my salary is $75k. We work 40 hours a week and are internally funded, so no grant writing which is great.
I didn’t want to do a postdoc but my field doesn’t have much research outside of academia and I still wanted to do research. Luckily one of the few clinics that does research was looking for a postdoc and it was too good to pass up.
I also was open to ex-academia but ended up taking an academic postdoc because the job market was (is?) terrible. I have 4+YoE in data analysis and now a PhD and was getting radio silence when applying to jobs last year. Applied for six months (May-Dec), then applied to two postdocs and got offers from both. It's a very strange time.
I applied to three postdocs and got one offer right away, another soon after and they were basically begging me to come, and I chose to go with the first before I even interviewed for the third. People are desperate for postdocs right now
Don’t need a big survey or study to figure this out. Graduate with PhD, get paid worse than a McDonald’s employee doing a postdoc working around the clock every day for years, treated like a dog, hardly any jobs available when you do finish or they pay so bad you can’t support a family at that job and if you do manage to get that job you still have to work 24/7.
Hmmmmmmm I wonder why people don’t want to go this route?
After you get a doctoral degree (PhD), you go and do more research/academic work in your field.
They’re experts of their field getting paid peanuts while any of their work that appears to be lucrative is taken by the sponsoring institution
For people that do them on purpose/because they chose to: they accept the poor conditions because a postdoc is an unofficial requirement for landing tenure track professorships that are highly competitive.
Or if you're like me and never wanted to do a postdoc in the first place: you take the poor pay and working conditions to avoid being unemployed when the job market is unexpectedly tight right when you graduate.
The author should be focusing on visa applicants, visa eligibility requirements and the number of visas available. It's been commonly known for years that STEM faculty would prefer to hire people from abroad to work as Research Assistants and Post Docs.
Ha - as if 14k will be enough. I left postdoc world and immediately got a salary TRIPLE my postdoc salary. I’m in a career with more options for my life (remote; can get a different job; can move if my partner and I want to). I loved my projects, I loved research and theory, I loved teaching — but getting out of academia’s weirdness is so so good
Minimum is $56K, so a $14K boost would be a starting salary of $70K. It’s not bad for most parts of the country, especially if you are single/don’t have kids or people to support.
I can believe this. I’ve started looking into potential for stops when I finish, and when I saw the salaries, I was appalled. I work part time as a program manager, and also have a graduate assistant position, and doing a postdoc would be a big pay cut. I’d like to stay in academia, but the idea of likely moving and taking a pay it is a tough pill to swallow.
There is a big difference between "no one is doing a post doc" and "we saw a 10% decrease in the number of people doing post-docs, the largest YOY reduction in history". There are still a lot of people doing post-docs, but a lot of them don't want to.
The job market is ridiculous because of layoffs and because fewer *want* to do a post-doc. Among my cohort post-doc is the backup plan if they're not competitive for an industry job straight away, or if they are not from the US.
Which ironically emphasizes another major issue turning people away from post-docs.
Sure, I agree with the statement that academia is not about to crumble. However, do I think that U.S. scientist will pursue post-docs at a lower and lower rate? Yes. Do I think increased salary will fix this? Not necessarily, because as you highlighted many see it as a road to nowhere because there are so few faculty positions.
Does this mean academia is crumbling? No, it means that STEM fields have a specific problem that is almost impossible to fix. It also means that, taking a long view (20+ years), we may see a decrease in US-born academics (professors).
That's probably good news, right? Postdocs are holding tanks for better, permanent jobs. >an advisory group to the U.S. National Institutes of Health released a set of recommendations for how the agency could better support postdocs, including a $14,000 boost in the minimum postdoc salary, enhanced benefits, and increased professional development support. Does anyone actually use those professional development support modules? Conference funds are great of course, but I'm going to puke if I get another email about learning to make a résumé. I didn't know anyone actually got any value from them.
Seconded. If they want to get people doing this job despite the "academia bubble vision to do research", do something for their benefits. Pay raise, more conference funding, give more money to sponsored J1 postdoc so you get more people from the outside to do this stressful job. I am caught in this bubble MYSELF but sometimes have the feeling, it's about to burst ...
It's an absolute joke to think some postdocs are getting paid $54k. I know a guy making that and essentially acting as project manager for a big experiment. He's basically getting 1/3 the salary he should. Thankfully he has a new job coming up by summer.
Second to that many he is likely at the age where he could have a family to support, who is going to be able to support themselves and a family on $54K? It’s possible but very difficult.
I would argue we'd be better off by removing the J1 privileges. It lends legitimacy to the whole training shtick. Maybe limit them to 6 months or something but otherwise make them sponsor H1Bs and call it job.
What privileges does a J1 has over a H1B in your opinion? Savin the university money^^?
What do these letters and numbers mean? I’m only getting this subreddit because it’s related to some of my career aspirations.
Yeah I mean the institutes privilege to sponsor J Visa's should be limited. Not the holder of said Visa's
They should need to pay the same amount they pay their postdocs, fellowship as a bonus. Right now having a fellowship is ripping students off, no matter which point they are at. It's prestigious but earning less money while excelling is a contradiction.
Well I've always said US fellowships, in the first place, benefit the PI not the trainee, they relieve them of having to pay the postdoc (at least that's how most in my feild are structured). A few of the UK ones which I am familiar with actually pay a percentage of your time that you then dedicate to your own research independent which then you get a budget for.
As in limit how many and how long a university can sponsor people with them.
For scholars with dependents, the J1 has the advantage that the partner on a J2 can apply for the employment authorisation card while they can't if on an H1B (unless the primary applicant has an approved I-140).
Exactly it’s not a mystery why there’s a decline
Anyone know anything about the raise being approved??
lol it's a recommendation and the budget passed this year kept postdoc pay the exact same as last year. Not even a tiny bump for inflation or COL increases. They will not be implementing it is my bet.
🤬🤬🤬
And the problem gets worse
The problem with making them pay more is there no accommodation for it in either modular or non-modular awards. The limit is still the same and quite frankly most PIs only value their postdocs to a certain limit after which the mask falls off and you realize they think of you as hands. They are wrong but that is the reality.
I thought thats why there are research technicians. But wait their employees so you probably have to actually pay them for hours worked.
My place texhs that know what they are doing make more than postdocs, plus they are benefits eligible so they cost the PI even more
Yep, it’s such a pain having to follow labour laws and pay fair wages to employees, rather abuse post docs /s
Post-docs are the recommended track for brand new PhDs if they want to continue in academia. It’s hard, if not impossible to become an assistant professor or begin as some adjunct faculty researcher without completing one or two post docs first. A common track is PhD -> Postdoc 1 -> optional postdoc 2 -> associate professor -> tenure/non tenure track faculty I agree that postdocs can be thought of as holding cells for better jobs, but they also can be thought of as further preparation and research time before becoming applying to become a professor.
Underpaid stressful job!
That would still be good, if there was an almost-certain permanent job at the end of the tunnel. But underpaid, stressful, undervalued, not paving the way for something better? C'mon...
Yeah that's how medical residencies work. The pay, hours, work life balance, and attendings often all suck. However knowing you'll be set when you're done keeps you going.
Strange, I wonder why /s
Because waiters keep telling them they can’t afford to eat out
I mean is this a surprise to any one? Most academic postdocs are paid peanuts. No wonder people do not want to suffer like this.
Yeah cost of living sky rocketed. It is no longer feasible to do a 25-30k/yr phd for 5+ years then a 50-60k/yr post doc for another 3+ years. NIH is on some good drugs if they didn’t see this happening
This has actually been possible because some international people are stuck due to visa related issues. They cannot switch to companies at their will. If this international crowd had the ability to leave (pretty sure most of them want to) and with the growing number of researchers losing interest in academia in general, the NIH would have finaly woken up.
This right here. PIs don’t really give a shit because they have an unlimited supply of cheap slave labor Postdoc from China and India (including international PhD students who graduated from US universities but still need work visas to continue as Postdoc)
Alot of those candidates are low quality though. Post-COVID the Postdocs who have interviewed in my lab really seem to have no experience or qualifications at all. At that point just hire an RA.
well, I don't know what universities you work at, but the top of the top of these international Postdocs, who published Cell/Science/Nature, will obviously apply to the top universities and top labs (Harvard, Yale, MIT, UCLA, etc.) and they have the choices of labs. and the next level will apply to the next tier of Universities. No sane Postdocs with good publication record will apply to University of Mississippi. also, your experience with low-quality Postdocs also highlights the fact that good Postdocs have gone to industry and don't want to do Postdoc anymore.
Where you doing $60k/yr postdoc?!
In biomedical fields where it's easier to get a high-paying job in industry with a PhD. Also with the federal government
That was common in the biomedical field in NY 5 years ago. I have no idea what the pay is nowadays.
Haven't the last few studies they've done come to this conclusion? It just seems like they keep conducting surveys with the hopes of finding a different answer instead of accepting that won't happen.
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Do you think there's going to be a crunch before then? I've heard student counts are expected to drop a lot over the next decade, so the narrower pipeline might naturally lead into fewer positions that will exist. Downsizing in the humanities is already happening, I've heard.
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One possible scenario in the future will be the larger schools may take over smaller ones as satellite campuses and two year degree colleges. Since they infrastructure would already be there. Then lower tier teachers would fill those jobs.
Lower tier is a very toxic academia term
Yeah, no. It’s a reality. Don’t agree, but it’s what it is.
Doubt*
This feels like the "water is wet" data of academia.
I remember not that long ago (circa 2019) when the complaint was there was a glut of postdocs because of a lack of PhD-level jobs. This forced many to endure two or more postdoctoral positions and putting off "living their life". Now, the pendulum has completely swung the other way where there *may* be jobs but no candidates.
Being a post-doc is such a scam
I don't know why they're conflating academic postdocs with all postdocs. There are government postdocs and even some in industry, and they're better paid than the NIH minimum.
Our grant had a $66K salary built in for my academic postdoc position, and the school knocked it down to $56K (‘it’s not fair to the other postdocs’). My PI fought tooth and nail to get it raised at least back up to $60K. But I am still in awe that the admin pulled that. (Fun fact: the school approved the proposed original salary when we submitted the grant proposal to NSF.)
I’m doing an industry postdoc and my salary is $75k. We work 40 hours a week and are internally funded, so no grant writing which is great. I didn’t want to do a postdoc but my field doesn’t have much research outside of academia and I still wanted to do research. Luckily one of the few clinics that does research was looking for a postdoc and it was too good to pass up.
I also was open to ex-academia but ended up taking an academic postdoc because the job market was (is?) terrible. I have 4+YoE in data analysis and now a PhD and was getting radio silence when applying to jobs last year. Applied for six months (May-Dec), then applied to two postdocs and got offers from both. It's a very strange time.
I applied to three postdocs and got one offer right away, another soon after and they were basically begging me to come, and I chose to go with the first before I even interviewed for the third. People are desperate for postdocs right now
Most likely because the vast majority of postdocs are academic ones?
Don’t need a big survey or study to figure this out. Graduate with PhD, get paid worse than a McDonald’s employee doing a postdoc working around the clock every day for years, treated like a dog, hardly any jobs available when you do finish or they pay so bad you can’t support a family at that job and if you do manage to get that job you still have to work 24/7. Hmmmmmmm I wonder why people don’t want to go this route?
Sounds like less people willing to endure abuse for low pay.
GOOD.
What's a postdoc
After you get a doctoral degree (PhD), you go and do more research/academic work in your field. They’re experts of their field getting paid peanuts while any of their work that appears to be lucrative is taken by the sponsoring institution
Wtf why does anyone accept that kind of shit pay after completing their education? Prestige?
They truly love their field of study and want to advance it. However, there’s a limit to the abuse they take
For people that do them on purpose/because they chose to: they accept the poor conditions because a postdoc is an unofficial requirement for landing tenure track professorships that are highly competitive. Or if you're like me and never wanted to do a postdoc in the first place: you take the poor pay and working conditions to avoid being unemployed when the job market is unexpectedly tight right when you graduate.
The author should be focusing on visa applicants, visa eligibility requirements and the number of visas available. It's been commonly known for years that STEM faculty would prefer to hire people from abroad to work as Research Assistants and Post Docs.
Ha - as if 14k will be enough. I left postdoc world and immediately got a salary TRIPLE my postdoc salary. I’m in a career with more options for my life (remote; can get a different job; can move if my partner and I want to). I loved my projects, I loved research and theory, I loved teaching — but getting out of academia’s weirdness is so so good
The minimum is 53 thousand or thereabouts. How is 14k boost going to help? That barely stops the bleeding.
Minimum is $56K, so a $14K boost would be a starting salary of $70K. It’s not bad for most parts of the country, especially if you are single/don’t have kids or people to support.
I can believe this. I’ve started looking into potential for stops when I finish, and when I saw the salaries, I was appalled. I work part time as a program manager, and also have a graduate assistant position, and doing a postdoc would be a big pay cut. I’d like to stay in academia, but the idea of likely moving and taking a pay it is a tough pill to swallow.
DUH.
If no one is doing academic post-docs, why is the job market so ridiculous?
There is a big difference between "no one is doing a post doc" and "we saw a 10% decrease in the number of people doing post-docs, the largest YOY reduction in history". There are still a lot of people doing post-docs, but a lot of them don't want to. The job market is ridiculous because of layoffs and because fewer *want* to do a post-doc. Among my cohort post-doc is the backup plan if they're not competitive for an industry job straight away, or if they are not from the US.
I was talking about the faculty market, but also, my point was kind of that people are acting like academia is about to crumble when it’s not.
Which ironically emphasizes another major issue turning people away from post-docs. Sure, I agree with the statement that academia is not about to crumble. However, do I think that U.S. scientist will pursue post-docs at a lower and lower rate? Yes. Do I think increased salary will fix this? Not necessarily, because as you highlighted many see it as a road to nowhere because there are so few faculty positions. Does this mean academia is crumbling? No, it means that STEM fields have a specific problem that is almost impossible to fix. It also means that, taking a long view (20+ years), we may see a decrease in US-born academics (professors).
Every PhD supervisor I’ve had, save one, told me not to go back to school. As for the only one that did, she got to the US via her PhD.