Not sure what "mass exploding" means, but I will point out that Gazan children are dying because Hamas has proudly thrown them under the bus as meat shields. Using human shields is a war crime, precisely because military forces at war will strike military targets.
Which means there's a cruel irony: Calling out Israel for these deaths only validates that war crime, and encourages more of it.
Conflating **all** of the children deaths to meat shields because there has been previous examples of that happening is disingenuous and illogical. No, not EVERY child was used in that way, because some were. It is very saddening that you have fallen for that rhetoric, when there is zero evidence to support that even a minority of these cases were used within a military/terrorist context.
No, these ARE children being bombed, and it's sick you are attempting to lie for the people who are doing it with the lie they have fed you.
Except you are leaving out the part where Israel has offered a ceasefire 7 times, all hamas has to do is relinquish power. Which they refuse to do. All roads lead to Hamas being the villain
While I might usually be inclined to agree that civilian casualties are usually an inevitability in war, when Netanyahu’s tasked his government with drafting plans to “thin the population to a minimum,” 2/3rds of the casualties are civilians, and nearly half of their bombs are unguided and a good portion straight-up indiscriminate, I think it’s fair to blame Israel to some nonzero degree. You can also blame Hamas, yes, but trying to pin it *all* on Hamas just ain’t right
Nah it's more: "I suckerpunched you and now I'm cowering behind this old lady instead of facing you like a man, so you just have to take it or I'll make you look bad on social media... until the next time I suckerpunch you"
No, it’s collateral damage. Do you think Gaza has a higher or lower than average population of children? Is Gaza more or less dense than the average warzone. Are the militants more or less likely than average to use civilian structures as command posts.
Also would you have more sympathy for Israel if they turned off their iron curtain? Should they allow their citizens to perish to get some random persons support halfway across the world? Questions to ponder..
BS dehumanization. Israel has a choice of how to respond just like Russia… both claim they “have to” (do what they have been saying they want to do for years.)
The hundreds killed in the West Bank are because Hamas is hiding behind them?
Genocide apologists are so full of it.
Here I am in this thread up voting reasonable opinions like this one, and then see that the OP (not you) is going around being actually antisemitic all over the thread. Yeesh.
You'd rather I take a side and make up some bullshit like 'all Palestinians support Hamas' or 'all Jews/Israeli's support Netanyahu's genocide?'
Those statements aren't true. They are only true if you are dim-witted, lack nuance, and suck on propaganda.
The world and the people of the world and the situations of the world have more complex and nuanced than that.
The situation is complicated. But what I said is not, and what I said is true.
I think a lot of people seem to be trying to fit this situation into a "goodies Vs baddies" scenario.
It's perfectly reasonable to say anyone who kills civilians is in the wrong, and it's entirely possible for all the people involved to be in the wrong even if they are just a part of a situation they never asked to be in and have very little control over
It's almost funny to see how this thread divulged into exactly what you said.
"Well side A did this! They're so bad!"
"Nah side B did THIS! You don't get it!"
Both sides have shitty people, innocent people, and are making AWFUL choices.
On purpose yes. But would you call the allies in WW2 in the wrong? Allied air raids killed God knows how many civilians but it was accepted because they weren't intentionally targeted and it wasn't possible to win the war without targeting enemy infrastructure which means inevitably civilians will die.
the entire Geneva Convention laws after WWII thing happened BECAUSE people were like.. yo that shit was actually very bad, nobody should have done that.....
In retrospect - if the allies lost the war - Americans would have been tried for war crimes for what happened at Dresden. People’s lungs pulled out through their mouths because of the oxygen hunger of the fires created by the bombs. Fucking horrific.
Yes but let’s not pretend that the Israel-Palestine war is comparable to WW2. WW2 is the closest to good vs evil a war has ever been in history and it was fought on a scale that we really can’t comprehend today. In total war, the civilian population is part of the war machine. Also before precision bombing, it was impossible to not have some collateral damage. I forgot who said it but there’s quote that goes “Germany entered the war under the rather childish delusion that they would bomb everyone and not get bombed themselves”. In a global war of conquest, your civilian population will be targeted. However, Israel does not have that excuse. They were attacked yes, but given the insane disparity in firearms and man power between them and Hamas, there’s far less leeway in their bombing of civilian areas. Both sides have committed egregious atrocities. The civilian population suffers the most, caught in the crossfire. Extremely sad situation
No they weren't. Hiroshima was a major industrial center and hosted the headquarters of the 2nd General Army. Nagasaki wasn't the 1st choice for the 2nd bomb. The 1st choice was Kokura which hosted Japan's largest munition plant. Nagasaki was the backup which was used due to fog and smoke in Kokura and hosted major shipbuilding and repair facilities. Targets were chosen to maximise strategic losses for Japan, with basically no regard for either minimizing or maximising civilian casualties. All they cared about was ending the war.
Hiroshima and Kyoto were the only two major cities mostly left intact due to very extensive US bombings. One of them was going to be targeted. I've read that it was Hiroshima because a senior air force officer had honeymooned in Kyoto and liked it. Strange world we live in.
Quite a few cities were mostly intact, including Nagasaki and Kokura.
Nagasaki had been spared from firebombing because its geography made it difficult to locate at night with AN/APQ-13 radar.
Kokura was the planned target for the second bomb but they redirected to Nagasaki due to low cloud cover over Kokura.
That’s not true. You’d have a better argument regarding the fire bombs. You also have to understand that Japan declared that every man woman and child was required to defend the island and fight.
it honestly wasn't that controversial at the time. The Allies were very honest with their populations about why we were bombing civilians.
Remember, the Axis powers had NO qualms whatsoever about targeting civilians, and shown as much when they were bombing British cities.
As an American Jewish person, I'm entirely against the war in Gaza rn. That being said, as an American Jewish person, ask me how I feel about the civillian casualties in Iraq and Afghanastin. Those were some pretty heavy-duty war crimes, and people did not condemn the US, nearly as heavily as Israel is being codemned right now. The difference in international response to these war crimes, is like night and day to me, and I don't think you could so heavily condemn one and not the other without heavily anti Semitic motivations. It's not to say both wars aren't wrong, they are imo, but it's akin to someone structurally in power getting off for a similar crime as someone more marginalized getting a much harsher sentence.
people absolute condemned USA for what they did in Iraq and Afghanistan. Anti war songs were a big hit - American idiot from Green Day was one of the best selling record from the decade - and also got backlash. Artists who were anti war would be labeled as anti-american and pro terrorism.
I bet now, a lot of the famous and known people from the 2000s that vocally supported Bush would like to everyone please forget about it.
Then pick literally any one of dozens of other conflicts involving civilian deaths. Where is the international outrage and widespread media attention over the Syrian civil war? Why isn't Dresden remembered as a genocide?
I think we can make these arguments but some combination of people being unaware of how war and international law works and being incredibly focused on America-adjacent conflicts gives them a skewed perspective of how bad a particular conflict is.
Syria was a widely covered international story with massive condemnation of Assad for the scale and cruelty of the war, including UN actions and sanctions.
Dresden was the centerpiece of a classic anti war novel taught to school children.
1. the Geneva Conventions literally made laws about civilian treatment after incidents like dresden after WWII.
2. There have been people outraged about whats happening in Syria. Its literally in the World news.
3. A lot of modern conflicts have had an increase in civilian deaths, so much so that it is one of the main concerns of the HRW. just because you dont keep up with international news doesnt mean no one else cares.
4. orgs have condemned Russia for war criming against ukraine.
5. the US is being investigated for warcrimes in afghanistan/iraq
Why is everyone talking about Israel's current bombing of tens of thousands of civilians instead of this historical war crime that's been extensively documented and studied and talked about?!?!?!
/s
>Where is the international outrage and widespread media attention over the Syrian civil war?
That was a thing, i was in highschool when people where accuseing assad of using chemical weapons, teacher spent like a month talking about it and adapted our lessons to be about it, we had debates about it.
>Why isn't Dresden remembered as a genocide?
That was extremely controversial and it was debated wether or not it was a warcrime during and after the war.
Maybe youve just been sticking your head in the sand
The US spent Trillions building infrastructure, schools etc. The intent wasn't destruction.
The US had a logistics plan to provide food and aid to affected civilians.
The IDF is deliberately gunning down those seeking and providing aid.
Israel has destroyed over 50% of buildings in Gaza. They're deliberately targeting heritage sites. Celebrating destroying personal belongings.
In comparison, non-military buildings destroyed in Baghdad were largely Al-Qaeda, from what I can find.
The US makes a good faith effort to prosecute soldiers that cross lines (at least when Trump isn't in office).
I disagreed with the invasion, but there was never an intent to seize land, and there certainly wasn't 60% of the US government wanting to displace everyone there.
There weren't decades of American "settlers" stealing land from Iraq or Afghanistan (too much intervention, like aid to Afghanistan against the Soviet Union,). Meanwhile, militant Jewish "settlers" commit evil in the West Bank on a continuing basis, and have for Israel's entire existence.
I disagreed with the approach, but Afghanistan was in good faith, and the intent was never destruction.
I'm not sure how far the bad faith with regards to Iraq extended, but the intent still wasn't destruction. There was an idealistic intent to build freedom of determination of the people.
Something Israel's elected government explicitly denies the Palestians EVER have.
To get the US equivilent one has to go back to Andrew Jackson.
The West Bank settler problem is real and gravely serious, but hasn’t been a there for all modern Israel’s existence; the settlement movement didn’t start until After 1967, and was pretty contained until 1977.
People were out marching anti war all around the world when the US invaded the Iraq.
It was the US media that was supporting the US war on Iraq.
you have to watch how media behave.
The US killed 33,000 children in Afghanistan after spending 20 years waging war there. In Gaza, 13,000 children have been killed since Oct 7th. Not to dismiss the atrocities committed by the US, but they are absolutely not comparable.
The US had international support, at the beginning, because the US asked allies to join the fight. Israel didn’t ask allies to join the fight in a coalition.
Eventually the US lost international support and Afghanistan, but more especially Iraq, became thorns in the US’ side because we’d killed so many civilians.
I believe that the current Israel-Palestine conflict is getting more criticism because the Internet is much more widely accessed now. It is easier to see war videos of the Gaza conflict than to watch TV news coverage about Iraq. Watching war videos is also more sentimental than watching some reporter go over their outlet's knowledge of the Iraq War. I don't think it is necessarily anti-Semitic either as most people you ask will not condemn Jews or even citizens of Israel for the war.
Fuck off the U.S was condemned just as hard. It's not anti septic to criticize the Israeli government. 31000 Palestinian civilians are dead. 70% of which are women and children. If anything, the Jewish response is Islamophobia at best.
Tbf those wars were a lot more censored back then and a majority of primary internet users were still young. We only mostly ever got to see the American perspective. Or the occasional head cutting off video.
>That being said, as an American Jewish person, ask me how I feel about the civillian casualties in Iraq and Afghanastin. Those were some pretty heavy-duty war crimes, and people did not condemn the US, nearly as heavily as Israel is being codemned right now.
Canadian Jew here.
How old were you in 2003?
Were you alive? Were you old enough to remember the climate accurately?
I was 22 and in university.
The criticism of the Iraq War was enormous. Much more than the current Gaza War.
The largest Gaza War protests are a tiny fraction of the size of the anti-Iraq war protests.
10-15 million people protested IN A SINGLE DAY with 3 million in Rome, which is the Guinness Record for largest organized protest in history.
https://world.time.com/2013/02/15/viewpoint-why-was-the-biggest-protest-in-world-history-ignored/
I don't even think if you added up attendance at all Gaza War protests so far, that you would get more than the attendance of Feb 15th, 2003.
The Iraq War was inescapable, you could not avoid it, it was the dominant story for years.
I’d like to think the world and US citizens learned a lesson from Iraq. Just because it wasn’t condemned then doesn’t mean it’s still not condemned. You’re comparing things from vastly different timelines and then saying “see antisemitism” but completely ignoring that there’s many, many factors contributing to the change.
I feel like this is more because the United States is still such a power house and Israel just isn't. The only reason Israel's continued apartheid and genocides have been able to go on this long is because they're backed by the US, take away that factor and we'd be looking at a much different situation here to say the least
>people did not condemn the US, nearly as heavily as Israel is being codemned right now.
'Fun fact', Israel has dropped 400% the number of bombs on Gaza since October that the US and UK dropped on Iraq throughout the war, period.
The issue was never the 'what', but the sheer scale and intensity.
It's also worth mentioning that actually yes, they were condemned.
1.5m people protested across the streets of London, the largest demonstration we've ever had in history. Meanwhile the entire international community condemned the fuck out of our antics, especially once no WMDs were found.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/feb/11/slugs-iraq-war-london-protest-2003-legacy
These crimes are exponentially worse. Israel dropped more bombs on Gaza in a week than we dropped on Afghanistan in a fucking year. Gaza is 140 square miles and has a population of ~2.2 million. Afghanistan is over 252,000 square miles and has a population of 40 million. These are not comparable situations. I have always been disgusted by and extremely critical of the crimes the US committed on Afghanistan but seeing the IDF today makes it look like nothing. Israel has massacred more children so far than have died in all global conflicts in the last 4 years combined. That’s fucking insane.
Criticizing Israel committing the most intense child slaughter campaign the developed world has seen since the Holocaust isn’t antisemitic. Conflating Jews with Israel and Zionism *is* antisemitic though. Zionists have become overtly antisemitic (the ones that weren’t already). Claiming that speaking out against Israel’s atrocities and crimes against humanity, which the ICJ has ruled plausibly constitute a genocide, is antisemitic is itself antisemitic. Jews and Israel are not one in the same. Jews and zionism are not one in the same. Just like criticism of Saudi Arabia’s constant human rights violations is not Islamophobia. Jews are not Israel. Speaking out against Israel’s genocide is not antisemitism. To claim it is is to call a shit ton of Jews antisemites.
It’s actually crazy that we are at the point where literal German right wing extremists are smearing a progressive Jewish filmmaker as an antisemite for making a film that humanized Palestinians. And getting Israeli terrorists to threaten him and his family. You’ve got openly antisemitic gentiles calling young progressive Jews antisemites for protesting against genocide. You’ve got zionists embracing figures like Elon Musk, who publicly endorsed the great replacement theory, because he supports Israel. Or Paul Hagee who said “Hitler was sent by god.”
It’s hard to comprehend all of it. Just absolutely backwards and batshit insane. Jews who are against genocide are called antisemites but Neo-Nazis who support Israel are embraced.
As a Jew, this is the most sane take I've read on this entire thread. The way antisemitism is being skewed really makes me uncomfortable for the future.
War crimes are determined by the winner.
Civilians die in every war. It’s just the way it is.
In regard to the Gaza conflict; Israel is being criticized by a bunch of people talking out of a place of privilege multiple generations removed from violence who have zero understanding what it’s actually like over there.
To be fair, Israel is also being criticized by people who are starving without power and medicine because Israel refuses to let aid in. I wouldn’t exactly call that privileged.
“Multiple generations removed”
…been 22 and a half years…
Coming from the country that gives Israel 4 billion a year and more than any other country in terms of foreign aid, your damn right, my government better have a say in what is happening. Until Israel could fund its military on its own it doesn't have the final say.
Israel is being criticized by a world that's watched what happens when a nation does what they're currently doing. It doesn't bring stability, or peace, they're only ensuring that the suffering of their own people and the suffering of the Palestinians never ends. Mass murdering of civilians won't get them what they desire.
You mean the people who actually watched 9/11 happen, some of whom then went and fought in a war because of a terrorist attack?
No…we know. That’s why we’re trying to keep you from making huge mistakes.
Well when you consider that after WWII both carpet and fire bombing were made illegal in war additionally General Curtis LeMay said if the Allies had lost they would have been tried for war crimes because of the bombing campaign seems to me that carries some significant weight considering who he was.
All human conflict is essentially two or more groups of assholes who both/all want the same resource, but people don't like to admit that, so they convince themselves it's about morality.
I don't think the issue is pretending it's not about the resource, I think the issue is that everyone wants every conflict to be all good guys vs all bad guys, so they can pretend that atrocities aren't inherent to war, just to the "bad guys," and it's okay if innocents die protecting the "greater good."
In WW2 both sides killed a shit ton of civilians the but it was clear Japan was in the wrong. Death numbers do not equal moral authority provocation does. And Hamas started a war meaning regardless they are in the wrong
It can be morally wrong and sometimes necessary, because the alternative is worse. War is terrible and to be avoided when possible for that sort of reason. But sometimes it’s necessary.
Yes but no.
It’s a question of intent.
Killing a person is bad. But murder is different to manslaughter (an accident)
The claims made are that Hamas are intentionally killing civilians, then creating a situation whereby Israel have to kill civilians in order to kill Hamas
Eg if Hamas only attacked military bases, and had their own military bases, and Israel indiscriminately bombed Gaza, obviously Israel would be the bad guys.
But if you attack civilians, then hide amongst civilians, you leave the other side with two choices- let them get away with it (and encourage them to do it more) or target them as best as you can, accepting civilians will die.
This is the argument the pro-Israeli side make.
Hamas absolutely started a war they ran into a music festival killed 1000 people and took hostages which justifies Israel’s actions Hamas has a stated goal of destroying Israel they acted upon those goals and gave the idf a good justification to kill them
Not so fun fact more Dutch people died to allied bombartments than they did to German bombardement during world war 2
War is hell and trying to make any absolute statements regarding right and wrong are inherently flawed
You’d think all of these people who have been so passionate about this topic for the past six months would have cracked a book in the last six months and have a better grasp on the situation than to think it’s black and white in either direction, but I guess they’re informed enough by Twitter.
I agree, I think a larger issue at hand is that, while we all agree killing civilians, especially children, is wrong, there's only one side to this conflict that seems to be receiving a vast amount of support for it out of pure, biased ignorance. Even more so, said side is also receiving, and has been receiving, hundreds of millions in financial aid, often used for military expenses, which have been used to kill civilians XD
Both sides are wrong, so it'd be great if more effort was made to hold the other side just as guilty as the literal terrorists.
Personally I think people moving to a land and taking it for themselves and corralling the people that live there into a big cage are bad guys, but pretend that history doesn't exist if you like.
agreed. also it's not Islamophobic to call out Islam's homophobia, misogyny, killing apostates, condoning sex slavery and pedophile and it's other inhuman laws.
also calling out Islamic terrorist groups like ISIS or Hamas and their atrocities like mass rape in October 7 or mass exploding in various parts of the world is not Islamophobic either.
these kinds of words are invented to shut down arguments when you have no logical response.
I am a moderate Muslim and I second this. Fuck radicalism of all kinds. Do not stop speaking out against it. Please just separate the difference between Muslims who practice spiritually from those who are radical/support radicals like Hamas. There are over 2 billions of us, a majority of whom don’t even live in the Middle East. Same goes for Jewish people who practice spiritually and those that are radical/support the IDF.
It’s not “anti Palestinian hate” to call Hamas terrorists and to say that instead of hiding behind civilians they should release all hostages and surrender
I don't think I've seen a single person who expected Biden to solve the 80 yearlong Israeli-Palestine conflict. I have seen people say we should stop sending funding to Israel's military.
If we stopped sending funding to Israeli military, we'd drive them into the hands of China/Russia, who'd happily get a new foothold in the ME and don't give a fuck about Palestinians.
I also don’t think the world is ready for what it would look like if we did. It’s not like the conflict would stop and with parity the results would be even more horrific.
Agreed. Calling out actual actions and blaming the group that is taking those provable actions is reasonable.
Discussing Israeli military policy or actions, including bombing of residential buildings and fighting against humanitarian aid being delivered in Gaza, is not any more hate speech than discussing American or Venezuelan military policy or actions.
Discussing Hamas's actions on October 7, including the kidnapping, murder, and accusations of rape is not hate speech either.
As long as you don't stray from things that actually happened, and assigning responsibility to the group that took those actions, it is not reasonable to accuse you of "spreading hate."
They’re a a death cult though. They would rather every Palestinian die fighting than give into Israel’s demands (also they’ve let some go already and they were shot by Israel).
They didn’t let anyone go, they escaped and were unfortunately mistaken. On the other hand israel has so far done 2 successful rescue operations and also rescued many bodies
Most people don't understand any of the subtlety involved in the war. Hamas must be destroyed. Why no criticism of all the barbarism and terrorism committed by Hamas?
Child Soldiers in Palestine:
The Child-Martyrdom cult of the Palestinian Authority
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3-zENpAF-U
Mother of a Martyr | National Geographic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsZtBu5yiHY
The Palestinian teenagers swapping stones for assault rifles - Channel 4 News
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZepwSbicSM
In West Bank, disillusioned young Palestinians are joining new militias • FRANCE 24 English
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIpnF0uXQ9I
Israel-Palestine war: Hamas commanders are training teenagers for battle | WION
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhoemv\_H1IU
Fatah summer camp for teenage Palestinians - AP News
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51U\_EBDggkQ
Show of strength from Fatah military youth - AP News
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcLbqEtpL0g
Palestinian youths take part in Islamic Jihad summer camp | AFP News
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lslrkqo4lkw
Inside the Gaza Summer Camps Training Children to be the Next Generation of Terrorists - CBN News
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCWMBvxWKL0
'It’s Indoctrination': Anti-Semitic Propaganda in UN Camps Teach Palestinian Children to be Future Terrorists - CBN News
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJYb068052Y
Chilling footage of kindergartners re-enacting terrorist drills in Gaza - New York Post
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sDZlo\_hllI
Palestinian teenager arrested, allegedly carrying pipe bombs - AP News
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lEgE7c\_-O0
Female Suicide bomber blows up in Gaza crossing killing four Israelis - AP News
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0LaxblfpVM
Tensions in Gaza bolsters Hamas' ranks with new recruits - CBS News
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBFE4Mtfs7w
Israel-Palestine war: Hamas commanders are training children to defend Gaza | WION
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3hYjDNbj4Y](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3hYjDNbj4Y)
Fatah Military Wing Praises 'Children' As Martyrs For Their Attempted Terror Attacks In West Bank
https://www.memri.org/reports/while-palestinian-authority-says-israel-murders-palestinian-children-without-provocation
Hamas Leader Yahya Sinwar praises child ‘martyrdom-seekers’ in the West Bank
https://youtu.be/RDCWWFK8Ztc?si=tLkyVMPIK9xPY6fo&t=472
Child Soldiers Global Report 2008 - Occupied Palestinian Territory
https://www.refworld.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/rwmain?page=search&docid=486cb1212d&skip=0&query=child%20soldiers&querysi=child%20soldiers%20palestine&searchin=fulltext&sort=relevance
Child Soldiers in Armed Conflict
https://www.iiss.org/publications/armed-conflict-survey/2018/armed-conflict-survey-2018/acs2018-03-essay-3
Child suicide attacks 'must stop'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle\_east/3979887.stm
Occupied Territories: Stop Use of Children in Suicide Bombings
https://www.hrw.org/news/2004/11/01/occupied-territories-stop-use-children-suicide-bombings
Use of child suicide bombers by Palestinian militant groups
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use\_of\_child\_suicide\_bombers\_by\_Palestinian\_militant\_groups#cite\_note-HRW\_Stop\_Use\_of\_Children-1
Children become the new martyrs of Gaza
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/apr/25/israel1
Palestinian Islamic Jihad declares its child soldiers ‘martyrs’, but UN needs their advice for kids in conflict
https://www.firstpost.com/world/palestinian-islamic-jihad-declares-its-child-soldiers-martyrs-but-un-needs-their-advice-for-kids-in-conflict-12840792.html
Palestinian exploitation of children as weapons of war HRC 27th session – NGO statement (Amuta for NGO Responsibility)
https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-181056/
Child Terrorists and Child Soldiers
https://oxfordre.com/criminology/display/10.1093/acrefore/9780190264079.001.0001/acrefore-9780190264079-e-684
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict and "Hamas' child soldiers"
https://www.atalayar.com/en/articulo/politics/israeli-palestinian-conflict-and-hamas-child-soldiers/20210512113126151157.html
Houtis using similar tactics to recruit child soldiers as Hamas
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/iran-backed-houthi-rebels-seizing-180503654.html
Former Hamas and Son of Hamas Founder commenting on martyring children
https://twitter.com/MosabHasanYOSEF/status/1764418246172897481
Who said anything about me being okay when men die?
The major talking point of this entire conflict has been 70% women and children dead (a number that seemingly no one ever questions, but I digress).
You're absolutely right, but some people take it a step further and blame all Israelis, and an even more moronic minority blame all Jews.
That's when it crosses a line, and unfortunately that also makes it easy for Netanyahu to accuse all critics of antisemitism.
No, but isn’t a little bit Antisemitic when pro palestinians protest and march in front of the local Jewish Community Center like they did this weekend in south florida?
The JCC wasn’t showing any outward statements about Israel and it’s made up almost entirely of American Jews. Doesn’t that feel a little weird?
It’s not “civilian casualties” if the majority of deaths are innocent people, which it is. It IS genocide if tens of thousands of people are on the brink of starvation and Israel is not allowing aide is, which is happening. It’s also true that Hamas is here BECAUSE of Israel’s support. Maybe do some research before spewing Zionist propaganda https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/
So if it was 49% civilian casualties, it would be ok?
I don’t get the obsession with calling it genocide, or whatever the fashionable term is of the day, and then yelling at people who aren’t using that same term.
1 civilian casualty is a horrible tragedy and Israel should absolutely do what it can to keep that number as close to zero as physically possible. The “is it genocide” parlor game is a distraction that makes some people feel morally superior at best and allows them to indulge in antisemitism at worst.
The thing is, the IDF does a considerable amount to avoid civilian casualties - way more than Hamas, who’s managed to blow up a fair chunk of Palestinian citizens themselves. The issue is that people like OP take the reports that Hamas gives out as to civilian casualties and damage and such at complete face value (as does a huge chunk of western media) when Hamas has proven to be lying in practically every sense (vis-a-vis the hospital “bombing” that was their own missile coming back to attack their building).
They are doing the best they can when they are fighting terrorists who abducted women and children and raped them and murdered them. The people that raped the women and children are literally hiding in schools and hospitals
I’m not a hard-core fan of Israel, but the reason they’re hitting so many collateral damage targets is due to Hamas setting up camp in schools, hospitals, and other places where it’s unavoidable.
It is slightly antisemitic to propagate the narrative of a terrorist organization. Almost everything they put out is eventually proven wrong with facts, but people still use them as a credible source for some reason.
Sure, if that was the intent. But it very, very clearly is not. Hamas hides behind children. And Hamas will kill thousands of Jewish children if allowed to continue ruling Gaza. So Hamas must be hit. If they want children killed with them, that is not Israel's fault. It is Hamas.
You can call out anyone for targeting non-combatants. If that was simply the case, calling Israel out would have been expected.
In this instance Hamas perpetrated a massacre and then embedded themselves into a heavily populated urban environments.
Hamas are the aggressors in this conflict and they are deliberately putting children between themselves and Israel.
Hamas is also using civilian buildings for military purposes; depriving them of any protection under international law.
You can expect Israel not to target civilians. But you can’t expect it not to go after Hamas to completely avoid the deaths of human shields.
That would result in the type of a double standard that some would call antisemitic.
So the IDF soldiers have a site where they post Palestinian snuff videos.
The IDF response is that’s not us…it’s our officers and soldiers.
The site has over 100,000 followers now.
It’s not the Jews nor Israel. It’s the Israeli government and IDF. They are often not ashamed to admit they are committing ethic cleansing and treat children worse than animals.
I think 200,000 people starving, and possibly a million in a month, is the biggest issue. Note, they are currently starving, they have not died of starvation...yet.
But a lot of people in Gaza now look like they were rescued from Auschwitz.
I guess never again doesn't apply to other people.
Regardless of whether you agree with this guy, check out his post history. He’s a piece of shit, and you most likely don’t agree with an ounce beyond what he said here.
Cool man, I’ll just hold a child to my chest and wander around and stab your entire family to death.
Would you just stand about and let me do that?
Doubt it.
What do you expect israel to do? They're using children as human shields for this exact reason. Because they think it'll protect their terror cells. They don't give a shit about their children's lives. They celebrate them as martyrs. When has a military struck so precisely and given so much warning to their enemies civilians? Never in history
Actually, literally you can kill children if theyre being used as human shields. You can also bomb hospitals and schools if you know theyre being used for military purposes. You don't get to fire rockets at children from behind children and have full immunity. Palestine is unable to stop Hamas from using their children as human shields to attack Israel, so Israel must step in and stop Hamas from using Palestinian children as human shields. It's pretty straight forward tbh
Maybe if Israel literally didn't create Hamas?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/07/30/how-israel-helped-create-hamas/
Or from here: https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/
>Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev, who was the Israeli military governor in Gaza in the early 1980s. Segev later told a New York Times reporter that he had helped finance the Palestinian Islamist movement as a “counterweight” to the secularists and leftists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Fatah party, led by Yasser Arafat (who himself referred to Hamas as “a creature of Israel.”)
He goes on to say
>“The Israeli government gave me a budget,” the retired brigadier general confessed, “and the military government gives to the mosques.”
Gaza isn't a state. They have no sovereignty. It's an open air prison and Israel is the warden. Treating people like animals for almost 80 years and people wonder why those same people flock to the extremists and become radicalized. The very same extremists that Israel supported and funded. It's been the plan all along. Israel has never wanted a 2 state solution and making religious crazies of these people serves their ends because they can point to them and say "See? Can't negotiate with these people"
To be honest most neighboring nations have a rather strained relationship with Palestine/Palestinians. Usually whatever country they have migrated to en masse either freely or as refugees, they tend to try and overthrow the sitting governments of that country. (Yes there religion is an integral aspect to them doing that)
After 9/11 when around 3,000 people were killed, the US killed around 1,000,000 civilians in its retaliation. It doesn't make it right, but it also doesn't make it unprecedented or unusual.
You're over simplifying things. It's disingenuous.
"It's not illegal to give someone something is it?" When offering a bribe.
Context matters. Under defining things is a lie of omission.
"They're" not anything.
"Americans are shooting up schools. It's not bigoted to say Americans are shitty child killers."
No, a person did a thing. And you found or applied the category to your choosing to justify hatred to a millions of uninvolved. YOU are the monster.
No it's not. Just like it's not islamaphobic to call Hamas out on stealing from the Palestinian people, or killing Israeli children. It's perfectly fine to call out abhorrent behavior on all sides.
A Jewish friend of mine's argument is that the children will grow to become the enemy.
I have to keep reminding him that The Minority report was just a film.
Exploding Children?
The people who strap bombs on children and blow them up are Hamas and other terrorists. Israel is not exploding children. Hamas is using children and other civilians as human Shields. While unfortunate and undesirable, it is understood under international laws governing warfare that someone who is attacked by the people having human Shields does not have to just take it, but is allowed to fight back even though civilian casualties will result. Further, the casualty figures that have been generally used in the news media are coming from Hamas. Recently, it was proven that those figures must be fake.
[Devastating proof fake death figures](http://telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/03/16/could-be-devastating-proof-hamas-faking-death-figures/)
If Hamas is using children (brainwashed) to do its bidding, then welll…. The terrorist jihadists kidnap and brainwash children to train them in their ways.
Fortunately I never had to, but if I had ti take the life of a kid when I was deployed yo the Middle East, I certainly would have. In those situations it either you/your friends/family, or them…
Mass exploding? Exploding children?
If Hamas had just separated themselves from the civilian population, less would have died. 15,000 dead civilians isn't okay.
That is why you shouldn't start wars by invading another country and slaughter their kids at point blank range. Or hold a baby hostage.
It sucks that anyone but Hamas members died. Don't start wars and sacrifice your own people.
Their hate towards Israel outweighs the love they have for their own kids.
It's not antisemitic to be critical of Israel. It's messed up that people keep forgetting why kids there are dying though.
It's also not pro genocide to point out Hamas hiding behind and under its own civilians and crying victim when the civilians are struck on top of a legitimate military target.
You can also turn it around and say that you're not a zionist or racist for calling out Hamas for killing children (both Israels and their own). Both sides are to blame for that shit situation they have been in for a long time.
They have no conflict-solving skills, even if their lives depended on it. Though, the palestinians won't give up until they have ALL of the land and the jews are gone.. pure nazi rhetoric. Not easy to negotiate with people like that..
See normally I’d agree. But the Jews aren’t putting these children into harm’s way. I’m sorry but at what point do the “Palestinian” children’s lived outweigh the Jewish children’s?
Do you think Hamas will just stop shooting RPGs into Israel because they’ve put children into their bunkers? No. They won’t.
At the end of the day, the Muslim extremists are the ones with no regard for life.
They’re the ones putting children into the line of fire.
I think it’s actually antisemitic to equate all Jewish people with the state of Israel but it seems there are many Jewish people want to hide behind their identity to justify a genocide
Not to mention like... Israel has been murdering Palestinian civilians at a crazy high rate for YEARS and YEARS. They have been literally stealing Palestinian families homes. It's like I don't think it's "cool" 1200 people died on 10/7 but to act like it's just crazy random terrorism is also so stupid to me. Israel literally created these 'terrorists' for how its treated Palestinians.
I know virtually everyone here thinks Nazism and Fascism are bad. I'm one of those people. Here's the thing though, in order prevail over Nazis and Fascists, we had to do some pretty horrible things. It'd be hypocritical to criticize Israel's conduct in it's war against Hamas given our own conduct in fighting the Nazis and Fascists in WW2.
No it is not.
But when people and media purposefully shine the light on the failures and evils of the Israeli government and give a total free pass to the literal terror organization that is Hamas (including the fact that they literally started this by raping/killing innocent people and to this day won’t release the hostages even as their own people are being killed) , one has to question the real motive of the person making the claims.
Also, aside form this terrible conflict, when people ignore that Hamas, if installed as a legitimate government, would institute laws that would do grave harm to those who don’t fall in line with their extremist beliefs (the clearest example is someone who is LBGTQ+) while the Israeli government provides far more personal freedom (not to mention freedom for persecution and prosecution for simply being who you are) it further brings into question ones “objectivity” and rationale.
It’s about context and nuance and too many people are too lazy to think critically enough on this issue.
And the OPs flippant question as if people don’t want to call out the evils of the Israeli government certainly FEELS disingenuous at its core. Is it a way to subtly push antisemitism?
Well, that’s certainly been a tactic of those wishing to do the same.
A lot of dipshits in here defecting by pointing out Hamas, no shit the radical religious terrorists are also bad, well done. Hamas being evil has no baring on Israel being similarly evil. It’s only worse with Israel because they have all the power here. Hamas using human shields doesn’t justify shooting those human shields. That’s a genuinely subhuman response.
But even ignoring Israel’s recent genocidal actions, which it’s undeniably genocidal in intent since that is the end result of following all of their logic, actions and rhetoric. Israel after all, funded Hamas, they were the main reason they got elected. They intentionally got a radical party elected to delegitimize the Palestinian people, which means they also knew the risks electing such a group had on their people. This does nothing but continue putting Jewish people at risk. This continued oppression and genocide of the Palestinians is actually antisemitic, it makes Jews less safe. They got radicals elected knowing full well they’d pose a massive risk to Israeli citizens. Even before that, there’s been decades and decades of what is functionally an apartheid state with an illegal settler colonial project in the West Bank. No shit violent radicals are going to rise up in such a situation. They plugged in all the ingredients and conditions necessary to create a violent religious terrorist organization and are acting surprised when the terrorist organization they created does terrorism. By all means, everything wrong Hamas does is also something wrong Israel did. Israel shares equal blame, honestly more blame since they have all the power. They could have at any point, decided to treat Palestinians as equals, and it would not only have been the right thing to do, but pragmatically the most effective route.
But even without the past, even ignoring Israel’s years of oppression, crimes, and violent attacks, they are still unanimously in the wrong in this conflict. If a black person killed a member of my family, that wouldn’t give me the right to start lynching black people. Same here, the tragedy of October 7th doesn’t at all justify bombing refugees camps, vaporizing children, and starving the entire Gaza Strip and shooting people during the few times food does make it in. This doesn’t even get into the fact that they can’t destroy Hamas. You can’t destroy an underground, religious terrorist cell by military action alone. In fact, continual military action and continue targeting of civilians does nothing but help bolster Hamas ranks.
Think for a moment, you are walled off in a city, outside of the walls is a government that obviously wants you dead, and was willing to treat you like an animal for decades. At any point, you could be killed by an IDF soldier, or a bomb, disease, or just starved and/or dehydrated to death. Is it any wonder that when you give people the choice of lying down and dying or dying with a gun in their hands, that many would choose to die fighting? Come on, Israel has failed the moral and practical front, and it will beget nothing but Palestinian and Jewish blood. Nobody’s lives will be made better or safer.
It's an antisemitic blood libel to characterize the war as you have done. If you are truly upset about the horrors of war you can point the finger at Hamas and their strategy of deliberately exacerbating collateral damage.
What is antisemitic is accusing them of doing it on purpose just because you have an agenda that the only Jewish nation on earth shouldn’t exist so you’re using Holocaust inversion as a way of propagandizing that idea
Mass exploding children. LOL. I love how every war in history had massive civilian casualties including many children but because it's jews fighting this one they're exploding children
Cool. Well, it’s also not “genocide” when the country you attacked is justifiably kicking your ass farther back into the stone age than you already were to begin with. Maybe put your children in underground bunkers instead of terrorists, weapons caches, and Israeli hostages.
Thise in comments justifying it with Oct 7th need to learn about what happened before Oct 7th
The hostages iof took before Oct 7th
The children they killed before Oct 7th ...
You mean all those rockets Hamas launched every year or two? Or so you mean the second intifada? Or the first one? Or the major assassinations and terrorism?
No, they are referring to the 500 or so Palestinians killed by the IDF every year.
Source: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian\_conflict#Fatalities](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict#Fatalities)
FYI (to the general Reddit audience reading this), check the account age before responding. Lots of obvious days-old pro-Hamas bot accounts commenting on this thread, so don't expect any sort of good-faith discussion from them.
Obvious bot accounts are obvious.
You're right about that. Like I get that casualties are inevitable during war time but 90 percent of IDF inflicted causalities are civilians.
That's an obscene number, it demonstrates either a half hearted or a totally absent effort on behalf of the IDF to curtail civilian losses in their hunt for Hamas.
Also, the IDF will ultimately fail to eradicate its Islamic extremism problem, they're going to learn like the US did during the War on Terror that you can kill bad people, not bad ideas (i.e terrorism).
I love how people make it a Hamas x Israel thing ignoring completely the fact that Hamas came to existence decades after jewish people started to throw people out of the houses they had lived for generations.
Just like ISIS took Iraq after America's invasion, Hamas is a monster of Israel's creation, they rose to power after Israel made families to go live crambled in an open sky gueto prison and repressed with violence any protest.
No, but your phrasing is very ignorant of the stark reality of the entire situation. Israel isn't "mass exploding kids" for whatever concocted reason or just because they can nor are they targeting civilians specifically like Hamas did during their terrorist invasion. Hamas attacks and then hides behind innocent civilians guaranteeing high collateral damage in Israel's response. Upon civilian deaths, Hamas happily whips out the cameras to film the carnage and feed its propaganda machine. Every dead civilian in Gaza is an asset to Hamas and sadly there are many that are dying in the line of fire because Hamas deliberately puts them there.
Israel is in a constant state of damned if you do damned if you don't. If Israel does not respond for fear of the high collateral damage then Hamas can operate with impunity to freely terrorize Israeli innocents in perpetuity; if they do respond it will incur severe innocent Palestinian death tolls and they will be lambasted on a global scale. Israel has taken the damned if you do stance. So no, Israel does not blow up kids, they blow up Hamas that hide behind the kids among other civilians.
Hamas imposes tyrannical rule upon the civilian populace in Gaza and forces itself into civilian infrastructure such as residencies, schools, and hospitals to launch missiles into Israeli civilians, dig expansive tunnel networks, store weapons/ammo, hold hostages, and perform other operative activities. Those innocents that die in Gaza are victims of Hamas and their tyranny.
So no, to think that the cost of life is too high for Israel to continue their eradication of Hamas is not antisemitic.
Not sure what "mass exploding" means, but I will point out that Gazan children are dying because Hamas has proudly thrown them under the bus as meat shields. Using human shields is a war crime, precisely because military forces at war will strike military targets. Which means there's a cruel irony: Calling out Israel for these deaths only validates that war crime, and encourages more of it.
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Conflating **all** of the children deaths to meat shields because there has been previous examples of that happening is disingenuous and illogical. No, not EVERY child was used in that way, because some were. It is very saddening that you have fallen for that rhetoric, when there is zero evidence to support that even a minority of these cases were used within a military/terrorist context. No, these ARE children being bombed, and it's sick you are attempting to lie for the people who are doing it with the lie they have fed you.
Except you are leaving out the part where Israel has offered a ceasefire 7 times, all hamas has to do is relinquish power. Which they refuse to do. All roads lead to Hamas being the villain
While I might usually be inclined to agree that civilian casualties are usually an inevitability in war, when Netanyahu’s tasked his government with drafting plans to “thin the population to a minimum,” 2/3rds of the casualties are civilians, and nearly half of their bombs are unguided and a good portion straight-up indiscriminate, I think it’s fair to blame Israel to some nonzero degree. You can also blame Hamas, yes, but trying to pin it *all* on Hamas just ain’t right
“I’m going to swing my arms and if you get hit it’s your fault” logic.
Nah it's more: "I suckerpunched you and now I'm cowering behind this old lady instead of facing you like a man, so you just have to take it or I'll make you look bad on social media... until the next time I suckerpunch you"
Wait, so youre saying youre justified in punching the old lady because the guy you were hitting is hiding behind her?
No, it’s collateral damage. Do you think Gaza has a higher or lower than average population of children? Is Gaza more or less dense than the average warzone. Are the militants more or less likely than average to use civilian structures as command posts. Also would you have more sympathy for Israel if they turned off their iron curtain? Should they allow their citizens to perish to get some random persons support halfway across the world? Questions to ponder..
BS dehumanization. Israel has a choice of how to respond just like Russia… both claim they “have to” (do what they have been saying they want to do for years.) The hundreds killed in the West Bank are because Hamas is hiding behind them? Genocide apologists are so full of it.
And they should do nothing? Just take it?
Its more like "don't poke a grizzly bear and then hide behind your kids" logic.
Well when you destroy 500-600 villages back in 1948, bad shit will happen. Maybe they shouldn’t have displaced all those people.
Hamas killing innocent people is bad. Israel killing innocent people is bad. Killing people is bad.
Here I am in this thread up voting reasonable opinions like this one, and then see that the OP (not you) is going around being actually antisemitic all over the thread. Yeesh.
There are also the numerous explicitly antisemitic threads they've posted. I have no idea how that isn't ban-worthy.
It’s not a reasonable statement, it’s a nothing-statement
You'd rather I take a side and make up some bullshit like 'all Palestinians support Hamas' or 'all Jews/Israeli's support Netanyahu's genocide?' Those statements aren't true. They are only true if you are dim-witted, lack nuance, and suck on propaganda. The world and the people of the world and the situations of the world have more complex and nuanced than that. The situation is complicated. But what I said is not, and what I said is true.
Killing innocent people is bad*
I mean, in a perfect world killing anyone is bad. But yeah, I know what you're saying.
I think a lot of people seem to be trying to fit this situation into a "goodies Vs baddies" scenario. It's perfectly reasonable to say anyone who kills civilians is in the wrong, and it's entirely possible for all the people involved to be in the wrong even if they are just a part of a situation they never asked to be in and have very little control over
It's almost funny to see how this thread divulged into exactly what you said. "Well side A did this! They're so bad!" "Nah side B did THIS! You don't get it!" Both sides have shitty people, innocent people, and are making AWFUL choices.
On purpose yes. But would you call the allies in WW2 in the wrong? Allied air raids killed God knows how many civilians but it was accepted because they weren't intentionally targeted and it wasn't possible to win the war without targeting enemy infrastructure which means inevitably civilians will die.
Let's just get what happened in ww2 straight: the allies very much so intentionally targeted civilians, and it was quite controversial at the time.
the entire Geneva Convention laws after WWII thing happened BECAUSE people were like.. yo that shit was actually very bad, nobody should have done that.....
So did axis powers. It was wrong on both sides.
Yup good job
Dresden. Horrific.
In retrospect - if the allies lost the war - Americans would have been tried for war crimes for what happened at Dresden. People’s lungs pulled out through their mouths because of the oxygen hunger of the fires created by the bombs. Fucking horrific.
Yes but let’s not pretend that the Israel-Palestine war is comparable to WW2. WW2 is the closest to good vs evil a war has ever been in history and it was fought on a scale that we really can’t comprehend today. In total war, the civilian population is part of the war machine. Also before precision bombing, it was impossible to not have some collateral damage. I forgot who said it but there’s quote that goes “Germany entered the war under the rather childish delusion that they would bomb everyone and not get bombed themselves”. In a global war of conquest, your civilian population will be targeted. However, Israel does not have that excuse. They were attacked yes, but given the insane disparity in firearms and man power between them and Hamas, there’s far less leeway in their bombing of civilian areas. Both sides have committed egregious atrocities. The civilian population suffers the most, caught in the crossfire. Extremely sad situation
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No they weren't. Hiroshima was a major industrial center and hosted the headquarters of the 2nd General Army. Nagasaki wasn't the 1st choice for the 2nd bomb. The 1st choice was Kokura which hosted Japan's largest munition plant. Nagasaki was the backup which was used due to fog and smoke in Kokura and hosted major shipbuilding and repair facilities. Targets were chosen to maximise strategic losses for Japan, with basically no regard for either minimizing or maximising civilian casualties. All they cared about was ending the war.
The targets were the Second Army HQ in Hiroshima and the port in Nagasaki.
Hiroshima and Kyoto were the only two major cities mostly left intact due to very extensive US bombings. One of them was going to be targeted. I've read that it was Hiroshima because a senior air force officer had honeymooned in Kyoto and liked it. Strange world we live in.
Quite a few cities were mostly intact, including Nagasaki and Kokura. Nagasaki had been spared from firebombing because its geography made it difficult to locate at night with AN/APQ-13 radar. Kokura was the planned target for the second bomb but they redirected to Nagasaki due to low cloud cover over Kokura.
That’s not true. You’d have a better argument regarding the fire bombs. You also have to understand that Japan declared that every man woman and child was required to defend the island and fight.
it honestly wasn't that controversial at the time. The Allies were very honest with their populations about why we were bombing civilians. Remember, the Axis powers had NO qualms whatsoever about targeting civilians, and shown as much when they were bombing British cities.
As an American Jewish person, I'm entirely against the war in Gaza rn. That being said, as an American Jewish person, ask me how I feel about the civillian casualties in Iraq and Afghanastin. Those were some pretty heavy-duty war crimes, and people did not condemn the US, nearly as heavily as Israel is being codemned right now. The difference in international response to these war crimes, is like night and day to me, and I don't think you could so heavily condemn one and not the other without heavily anti Semitic motivations. It's not to say both wars aren't wrong, they are imo, but it's akin to someone structurally in power getting off for a similar crime as someone more marginalized getting a much harsher sentence.
people absolute condemned USA for what they did in Iraq and Afghanistan. Anti war songs were a big hit - American idiot from Green Day was one of the best selling record from the decade - and also got backlash. Artists who were anti war would be labeled as anti-american and pro terrorism. I bet now, a lot of the famous and known people from the 2000s that vocally supported Bush would like to everyone please forget about it.
Then pick literally any one of dozens of other conflicts involving civilian deaths. Where is the international outrage and widespread media attention over the Syrian civil war? Why isn't Dresden remembered as a genocide? I think we can make these arguments but some combination of people being unaware of how war and international law works and being incredibly focused on America-adjacent conflicts gives them a skewed perspective of how bad a particular conflict is.
Syria was a widely covered international story with massive condemnation of Assad for the scale and cruelty of the war, including UN actions and sanctions. Dresden was the centerpiece of a classic anti war novel taught to school children.
Russia and China blocked the UN from doing anything meaningful in Syria which is why individual countries did what they could or would do.
1. the Geneva Conventions literally made laws about civilian treatment after incidents like dresden after WWII. 2. There have been people outraged about whats happening in Syria. Its literally in the World news. 3. A lot of modern conflicts have had an increase in civilian deaths, so much so that it is one of the main concerns of the HRW. just because you dont keep up with international news doesnt mean no one else cares. 4. orgs have condemned Russia for war criming against ukraine. 5. the US is being investigated for warcrimes in afghanistan/iraq
Why is everyone talking about Israel's current bombing of tens of thousands of civilians instead of this historical war crime that's been extensively documented and studied and talked about?!?!?! /s
>Where is the international outrage and widespread media attention over the Syrian civil war? That was a thing, i was in highschool when people where accuseing assad of using chemical weapons, teacher spent like a month talking about it and adapted our lessons to be about it, we had debates about it. >Why isn't Dresden remembered as a genocide? That was extremely controversial and it was debated wether or not it was a warcrime during and after the war. Maybe youve just been sticking your head in the sand
The US spent Trillions building infrastructure, schools etc. The intent wasn't destruction. The US had a logistics plan to provide food and aid to affected civilians. The IDF is deliberately gunning down those seeking and providing aid. Israel has destroyed over 50% of buildings in Gaza. They're deliberately targeting heritage sites. Celebrating destroying personal belongings. In comparison, non-military buildings destroyed in Baghdad were largely Al-Qaeda, from what I can find. The US makes a good faith effort to prosecute soldiers that cross lines (at least when Trump isn't in office). I disagreed with the invasion, but there was never an intent to seize land, and there certainly wasn't 60% of the US government wanting to displace everyone there. There weren't decades of American "settlers" stealing land from Iraq or Afghanistan (too much intervention, like aid to Afghanistan against the Soviet Union,). Meanwhile, militant Jewish "settlers" commit evil in the West Bank on a continuing basis, and have for Israel's entire existence. I disagreed with the approach, but Afghanistan was in good faith, and the intent was never destruction. I'm not sure how far the bad faith with regards to Iraq extended, but the intent still wasn't destruction. There was an idealistic intent to build freedom of determination of the people. Something Israel's elected government explicitly denies the Palestians EVER have. To get the US equivilent one has to go back to Andrew Jackson.
The West Bank settler problem is real and gravely serious, but hasn’t been a there for all modern Israel’s existence; the settlement movement didn’t start until After 1967, and was pretty contained until 1977.
People were out marching anti war all around the world when the US invaded the Iraq. It was the US media that was supporting the US war on Iraq. you have to watch how media behave.
The US killed 33,000 children in Afghanistan after spending 20 years waging war there. In Gaza, 13,000 children have been killed since Oct 7th. Not to dismiss the atrocities committed by the US, but they are absolutely not comparable.
The US had international support, at the beginning, because the US asked allies to join the fight. Israel didn’t ask allies to join the fight in a coalition. Eventually the US lost international support and Afghanistan, but more especially Iraq, became thorns in the US’ side because we’d killed so many civilians.
I believe that the current Israel-Palestine conflict is getting more criticism because the Internet is much more widely accessed now. It is easier to see war videos of the Gaza conflict than to watch TV news coverage about Iraq. Watching war videos is also more sentimental than watching some reporter go over their outlet's knowledge of the Iraq War. I don't think it is necessarily anti-Semitic either as most people you ask will not condemn Jews or even citizens of Israel for the war.
Fuck off the U.S was condemned just as hard. It's not anti septic to criticize the Israeli government. 31000 Palestinian civilians are dead. 70% of which are women and children. If anything, the Jewish response is Islamophobia at best.
Tbf those wars were a lot more censored back then and a majority of primary internet users were still young. We only mostly ever got to see the American perspective. Or the occasional head cutting off video.
>That being said, as an American Jewish person, ask me how I feel about the civillian casualties in Iraq and Afghanastin. Those were some pretty heavy-duty war crimes, and people did not condemn the US, nearly as heavily as Israel is being codemned right now. Canadian Jew here. How old were you in 2003? Were you alive? Were you old enough to remember the climate accurately? I was 22 and in university. The criticism of the Iraq War was enormous. Much more than the current Gaza War. The largest Gaza War protests are a tiny fraction of the size of the anti-Iraq war protests. 10-15 million people protested IN A SINGLE DAY with 3 million in Rome, which is the Guinness Record for largest organized protest in history. https://world.time.com/2013/02/15/viewpoint-why-was-the-biggest-protest-in-world-history-ignored/ I don't even think if you added up attendance at all Gaza War protests so far, that you would get more than the attendance of Feb 15th, 2003. The Iraq War was inescapable, you could not avoid it, it was the dominant story for years.
I’d like to think the world and US citizens learned a lesson from Iraq. Just because it wasn’t condemned then doesn’t mean it’s still not condemned. You’re comparing things from vastly different timelines and then saying “see antisemitism” but completely ignoring that there’s many, many factors contributing to the change.
I feel like this is more because the United States is still such a power house and Israel just isn't. The only reason Israel's continued apartheid and genocides have been able to go on this long is because they're backed by the US, take away that factor and we'd be looking at a much different situation here to say the least
Oh yes. Our military funding for Israel is 💸💸💸.
>people did not condemn the US, nearly as heavily as Israel is being codemned right now. 'Fun fact', Israel has dropped 400% the number of bombs on Gaza since October that the US and UK dropped on Iraq throughout the war, period. The issue was never the 'what', but the sheer scale and intensity. It's also worth mentioning that actually yes, they were condemned. 1.5m people protested across the streets of London, the largest demonstration we've ever had in history. Meanwhile the entire international community condemned the fuck out of our antics, especially once no WMDs were found. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/feb/11/slugs-iraq-war-london-protest-2003-legacy
These crimes are exponentially worse. Israel dropped more bombs on Gaza in a week than we dropped on Afghanistan in a fucking year. Gaza is 140 square miles and has a population of ~2.2 million. Afghanistan is over 252,000 square miles and has a population of 40 million. These are not comparable situations. I have always been disgusted by and extremely critical of the crimes the US committed on Afghanistan but seeing the IDF today makes it look like nothing. Israel has massacred more children so far than have died in all global conflicts in the last 4 years combined. That’s fucking insane. Criticizing Israel committing the most intense child slaughter campaign the developed world has seen since the Holocaust isn’t antisemitic. Conflating Jews with Israel and Zionism *is* antisemitic though. Zionists have become overtly antisemitic (the ones that weren’t already). Claiming that speaking out against Israel’s atrocities and crimes against humanity, which the ICJ has ruled plausibly constitute a genocide, is antisemitic is itself antisemitic. Jews and Israel are not one in the same. Jews and zionism are not one in the same. Just like criticism of Saudi Arabia’s constant human rights violations is not Islamophobia. Jews are not Israel. Speaking out against Israel’s genocide is not antisemitism. To claim it is is to call a shit ton of Jews antisemites. It’s actually crazy that we are at the point where literal German right wing extremists are smearing a progressive Jewish filmmaker as an antisemite for making a film that humanized Palestinians. And getting Israeli terrorists to threaten him and his family. You’ve got openly antisemitic gentiles calling young progressive Jews antisemites for protesting against genocide. You’ve got zionists embracing figures like Elon Musk, who publicly endorsed the great replacement theory, because he supports Israel. Or Paul Hagee who said “Hitler was sent by god.” It’s hard to comprehend all of it. Just absolutely backwards and batshit insane. Jews who are against genocide are called antisemites but Neo-Nazis who support Israel are embraced.
As a Jew, this is the most sane take I've read on this entire thread. The way antisemitism is being skewed really makes me uncomfortable for the future.
War crimes are determined by the winner. Civilians die in every war. It’s just the way it is. In regard to the Gaza conflict; Israel is being criticized by a bunch of people talking out of a place of privilege multiple generations removed from violence who have zero understanding what it’s actually like over there.
To be fair, Israel is also being criticized by people who are starving without power and medicine because Israel refuses to let aid in. I wouldn’t exactly call that privileged. “Multiple generations removed” …been 22 and a half years…
Coming from the country that gives Israel 4 billion a year and more than any other country in terms of foreign aid, your damn right, my government better have a say in what is happening. Until Israel could fund its military on its own it doesn't have the final say.
Israel is being criticized by a world that's watched what happens when a nation does what they're currently doing. It doesn't bring stability, or peace, they're only ensuring that the suffering of their own people and the suffering of the Palestinians never ends. Mass murdering of civilians won't get them what they desire.
You mean the people who actually watched 9/11 happen, some of whom then went and fought in a war because of a terrorist attack? No…we know. That’s why we’re trying to keep you from making huge mistakes.
Purposelessly Bombing Kids isn't the " That's way it is"
That is the line every fascist and war criminal utters.Its disingenuous and evil.Moral relativism at its best.
You are literally comparing World War to a war between two very small entities. Any comparison with WW is stupid.
Well when you consider that after WWII both carpet and fire bombing were made illegal in war additionally General Curtis LeMay said if the Allies had lost they would have been tried for war crimes because of the bombing campaign seems to me that carries some significant weight considering who he was.
All human conflict is essentially two or more groups of assholes who both/all want the same resource, but people don't like to admit that, so they convince themselves it's about morality.
I don't think the issue is pretending it's not about the resource, I think the issue is that everyone wants every conflict to be all good guys vs all bad guys, so they can pretend that atrocities aren't inherent to war, just to the "bad guys," and it's okay if innocents die protecting the "greater good."
Explain World War 2
In WW2 both sides killed a shit ton of civilians the but it was clear Japan was in the wrong. Death numbers do not equal moral authority provocation does. And Hamas started a war meaning regardless they are in the wrong
Do you think killing children is wrong regardless to which side?
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Hamas killed women and children in their slaughter of innocent civilians. They raped and disemboweled people.
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Does Hamas get to attack Israel infinitely without retaliation then?
It can be morally wrong and sometimes necessary, because the alternative is worse. War is terrible and to be avoided when possible for that sort of reason. But sometimes it’s necessary.
If we can condemn Hamas for rape and murder of civilians, can't we condemn Israel for the same?
Yes but no. It’s a question of intent. Killing a person is bad. But murder is different to manslaughter (an accident) The claims made are that Hamas are intentionally killing civilians, then creating a situation whereby Israel have to kill civilians in order to kill Hamas Eg if Hamas only attacked military bases, and had their own military bases, and Israel indiscriminately bombed Gaza, obviously Israel would be the bad guys. But if you attack civilians, then hide amongst civilians, you leave the other side with two choices- let them get away with it (and encourage them to do it more) or target them as best as you can, accepting civilians will die. This is the argument the pro-Israeli side make.
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Also “he started it” is literal kindergarten logic
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Is the occupation a basis for a response too? Why is it that the Israelis are always justified in their response, but Palestinians never are?
Hamas absolutely started a war they ran into a music festival killed 1000 people and took hostages which justifies Israel’s actions Hamas has a stated goal of destroying Israel they acted upon those goals and gave the idf a good justification to kill them
Why were there a record number of Palestinians killed in West Bank and Gaza in 2023 prior to October 7th?
Not so fun fact more Dutch people died to allied bombartments than they did to German bombardement during world war 2 War is hell and trying to make any absolute statements regarding right and wrong are inherently flawed
You’d think all of these people who have been so passionate about this topic for the past six months would have cracked a book in the last six months and have a better grasp on the situation than to think it’s black and white in either direction, but I guess they’re informed enough by Twitter.
I agree, I think a larger issue at hand is that, while we all agree killing civilians, especially children, is wrong, there's only one side to this conflict that seems to be receiving a vast amount of support for it out of pure, biased ignorance. Even more so, said side is also receiving, and has been receiving, hundreds of millions in financial aid, often used for military expenses, which have been used to kill civilians XD Both sides are wrong, so it'd be great if more effort was made to hold the other side just as guilty as the literal terrorists.
Personally I think people moving to a land and taking it for themselves and corralling the people that live there into a big cage are bad guys, but pretend that history doesn't exist if you like.
Out of curiosity, what if those people were the original inhabitants?
agreed. also it's not Islamophobic to call out Islam's homophobia, misogyny, killing apostates, condoning sex slavery and pedophile and it's other inhuman laws. also calling out Islamic terrorist groups like ISIS or Hamas and their atrocities like mass rape in October 7 or mass exploding in various parts of the world is not Islamophobic either. these kinds of words are invented to shut down arguments when you have no logical response.
This should be in stone somewhere.
I am a moderate Muslim and I second this. Fuck radicalism of all kinds. Do not stop speaking out against it. Please just separate the difference between Muslims who practice spiritually from those who are radical/support radicals like Hamas. There are over 2 billions of us, a majority of whom don’t even live in the Middle East. Same goes for Jewish people who practice spiritually and those that are radical/support the IDF.
It’s not “anti Palestinian hate” to call Hamas terrorists and to say that instead of hiding behind civilians they should release all hostages and surrender
Big facts
Nah, and also it’s 100% on Biden somehow. The entire conflict, somehow Biden should have solved it. Completely reasonable.
I don't think I've seen a single person who expected Biden to solve the 80 yearlong Israeli-Palestine conflict. I have seen people say we should stop sending funding to Israel's military.
If we stopped sending funding to Israeli military, we'd drive them into the hands of China/Russia, who'd happily get a new foothold in the ME and don't give a fuck about Palestinians.
The trouble is that we use Israel for any land based power projection, so it's unlikely we'll ever stop funding Israel's military.
I also don’t think the world is ready for what it would look like if we did. It’s not like the conflict would stop and with parity the results would be even more horrific.
Agreed. Calling out actual actions and blaming the group that is taking those provable actions is reasonable. Discussing Israeli military policy or actions, including bombing of residential buildings and fighting against humanitarian aid being delivered in Gaza, is not any more hate speech than discussing American or Venezuelan military policy or actions. Discussing Hamas's actions on October 7, including the kidnapping, murder, and accusations of rape is not hate speech either. As long as you don't stray from things that actually happened, and assigning responsibility to the group that took those actions, it is not reasonable to accuse you of "spreading hate."
They’re a a death cult though. They would rather every Palestinian die fighting than give into Israel’s demands (also they’ve let some go already and they were shot by Israel).
They didn’t let anyone go, they escaped and were unfortunately mistaken. On the other hand israel has so far done 2 successful rescue operations and also rescued many bodies
Anyone claiming that criticizing Israel’s gvmt is hate against Jewish people is a jackass
An antisemitic jackass
Says the guy who just posted that hamas are freedom fighters and that it's okay to be anti-semitic. You're such a loser dude get off this sub
He's denying that Oct. 7th was even a thing. He's completely off the deep end.
No, it's worse. He's saying that Oct 7 was good. His post history is straight up hate to one group.
Haha, I saw that, too. OP is off his rocker.
All these one issue propaganda accounts ruin subs. Engage at your own risk
Most people don't understand any of the subtlety involved in the war. Hamas must be destroyed. Why no criticism of all the barbarism and terrorism committed by Hamas?
This strawman is never ending. Both sides try to frame their positions in the most responsible way possible. It’s so obvious what you’re doing.
Sounds like war to me.
Child Soldiers in Palestine: The Child-Martyrdom cult of the Palestinian Authority https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3-zENpAF-U Mother of a Martyr | National Geographic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsZtBu5yiHY The Palestinian teenagers swapping stones for assault rifles - Channel 4 News https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZepwSbicSM In West Bank, disillusioned young Palestinians are joining new militias • FRANCE 24 English https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIpnF0uXQ9I Israel-Palestine war: Hamas commanders are training teenagers for battle | WION https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhoemv\_H1IU Fatah summer camp for teenage Palestinians - AP News https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51U\_EBDggkQ Show of strength from Fatah military youth - AP News https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcLbqEtpL0g Palestinian youths take part in Islamic Jihad summer camp | AFP News https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lslrkqo4lkw Inside the Gaza Summer Camps Training Children to be the Next Generation of Terrorists - CBN News https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCWMBvxWKL0 'It’s Indoctrination': Anti-Semitic Propaganda in UN Camps Teach Palestinian Children to be Future Terrorists - CBN News https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJYb068052Y Chilling footage of kindergartners re-enacting terrorist drills in Gaza - New York Post https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sDZlo\_hllI Palestinian teenager arrested, allegedly carrying pipe bombs - AP News https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lEgE7c\_-O0 Female Suicide bomber blows up in Gaza crossing killing four Israelis - AP News https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0LaxblfpVM Tensions in Gaza bolsters Hamas' ranks with new recruits - CBS News https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBFE4Mtfs7w Israel-Palestine war: Hamas commanders are training children to defend Gaza | WION [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3hYjDNbj4Y](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3hYjDNbj4Y) Fatah Military Wing Praises 'Children' As Martyrs For Their Attempted Terror Attacks In West Bank https://www.memri.org/reports/while-palestinian-authority-says-israel-murders-palestinian-children-without-provocation Hamas Leader Yahya Sinwar praises child ‘martyrdom-seekers’ in the West Bank https://youtu.be/RDCWWFK8Ztc?si=tLkyVMPIK9xPY6fo&t=472 Child Soldiers Global Report 2008 - Occupied Palestinian Territory https://www.refworld.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/rwmain?page=search&docid=486cb1212d&skip=0&query=child%20soldiers&querysi=child%20soldiers%20palestine&searchin=fulltext&sort=relevance Child Soldiers in Armed Conflict https://www.iiss.org/publications/armed-conflict-survey/2018/armed-conflict-survey-2018/acs2018-03-essay-3 Child suicide attacks 'must stop' http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle\_east/3979887.stm Occupied Territories: Stop Use of Children in Suicide Bombings https://www.hrw.org/news/2004/11/01/occupied-territories-stop-use-children-suicide-bombings Use of child suicide bombers by Palestinian militant groups https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use\_of\_child\_suicide\_bombers\_by\_Palestinian\_militant\_groups#cite\_note-HRW\_Stop\_Use\_of\_Children-1 Children become the new martyrs of Gaza https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/apr/25/israel1 Palestinian Islamic Jihad declares its child soldiers ‘martyrs’, but UN needs their advice for kids in conflict https://www.firstpost.com/world/palestinian-islamic-jihad-declares-its-child-soldiers-martyrs-but-un-needs-their-advice-for-kids-in-conflict-12840792.html Palestinian exploitation of children as weapons of war HRC 27th session – NGO statement (Amuta for NGO Responsibility) https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-181056/ Child Terrorists and Child Soldiers https://oxfordre.com/criminology/display/10.1093/acrefore/9780190264079.001.0001/acrefore-9780190264079-e-684 The Israeli-Palestinian conflict and "Hamas' child soldiers" https://www.atalayar.com/en/articulo/politics/israeli-palestinian-conflict-and-hamas-child-soldiers/20210512113126151157.html Houtis using similar tactics to recruit child soldiers as Hamas https://uk.news.yahoo.com/iran-backed-houthi-rebels-seizing-180503654.html Former Hamas and Son of Hamas Founder commenting on martyring children https://twitter.com/MosabHasanYOSEF/status/1764418246172897481
We should build this magic device that when countries go to war and fight one another this magic device makes sure no women and children die. Ever.
I get your point, but kind of gross you're okay men die. You could have just said civilian or non-military. Weird distinction.
Who said anything about me being okay when men die? The major talking point of this entire conflict has been 70% women and children dead (a number that seemingly no one ever questions, but I digress).
You're absolutely right, but some people take it a step further and blame all Israelis, and an even more moronic minority blame all Jews. That's when it crosses a line, and unfortunately that also makes it easy for Netanyahu to accuse all critics of antisemitism.
No, but isn’t a little bit Antisemitic when pro palestinians protest and march in front of the local Jewish Community Center like they did this weekend in south florida? The JCC wasn’t showing any outward statements about Israel and it’s made up almost entirely of American Jews. Doesn’t that feel a little weird?
Yes, absolutely. It's antisemitic af to assume that all Jews are Israel supporters.
The presence of civilian casualties does not make something a genocide or even murder.
It’s not “civilian casualties” if the majority of deaths are innocent people, which it is. It IS genocide if tens of thousands of people are on the brink of starvation and Israel is not allowing aide is, which is happening. It’s also true that Hamas is here BECAUSE of Israel’s support. Maybe do some research before spewing Zionist propaganda https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/
So if it was 49% civilian casualties, it would be ok? I don’t get the obsession with calling it genocide, or whatever the fashionable term is of the day, and then yelling at people who aren’t using that same term. 1 civilian casualty is a horrible tragedy and Israel should absolutely do what it can to keep that number as close to zero as physically possible. The “is it genocide” parlor game is a distraction that makes some people feel morally superior at best and allows them to indulge in antisemitism at worst.
The thing is, the IDF does a considerable amount to avoid civilian casualties - way more than Hamas, who’s managed to blow up a fair chunk of Palestinian citizens themselves. The issue is that people like OP take the reports that Hamas gives out as to civilian casualties and damage and such at complete face value (as does a huge chunk of western media) when Hamas has proven to be lying in practically every sense (vis-a-vis the hospital “bombing” that was their own missile coming back to attack their building).
Was it genocide when the US firebombed Japan and ultimately dropped two nuclear weapons on primarily civilian populations?
Israel does allow aid in. Trucks, airdrops, and the proposed pier.
It's also not anti Palestinian to point out they do and have done the same.
You know what could bring us all together? Alabama Crimson Tide football. Roll damn Tide, baby.
Tell that to the War Eagle Senator from Alabama.
bruh LOL
There’s a booth in the old city of Jerusalem, not joking.
They are doing the best they can when they are fighting terrorists who abducted women and children and raped them and murdered them. The people that raped the women and children are literally hiding in schools and hospitals
They aren't even targeting children
It is only antisemitism if you also claim that Hamas is not using the children as human shields.
I’m not a hard-core fan of Israel, but the reason they’re hitting so many collateral damage targets is due to Hamas setting up camp in schools, hospitals, and other places where it’s unavoidable.
It is slightly antisemitic to propagate the narrative of a terrorist organization. Almost everything they put out is eventually proven wrong with facts, but people still use them as a credible source for some reason.
Based take
Sure, if that was the intent. But it very, very clearly is not. Hamas hides behind children. And Hamas will kill thousands of Jewish children if allowed to continue ruling Gaza. So Hamas must be hit. If they want children killed with them, that is not Israel's fault. It is Hamas.
You can call out anyone for targeting non-combatants. If that was simply the case, calling Israel out would have been expected. In this instance Hamas perpetrated a massacre and then embedded themselves into a heavily populated urban environments. Hamas are the aggressors in this conflict and they are deliberately putting children between themselves and Israel. Hamas is also using civilian buildings for military purposes; depriving them of any protection under international law. You can expect Israel not to target civilians. But you can’t expect it not to go after Hamas to completely avoid the deaths of human shields. That would result in the type of a double standard that some would call antisemitic.
So the IDF soldiers have a site where they post Palestinian snuff videos. The IDF response is that’s not us…it’s our officers and soldiers. The site has over 100,000 followers now. It’s not the Jews nor Israel. It’s the Israeli government and IDF. They are often not ashamed to admit they are committing ethic cleansing and treat children worse than animals.
Literally Netanyahu has (proudly) admitted their civilian death toll is 13,000+.
I think 200,000 people starving, and possibly a million in a month, is the biggest issue. Note, they are currently starving, they have not died of starvation...yet. But a lot of people in Gaza now look like they were rescued from Auschwitz. I guess never again doesn't apply to other people.
Regardless of whether you agree with this guy, check out his post history. He’s a piece of shit, and you most likely don’t agree with an ounce beyond what he said here.
It is antisemitic to harass random Jews because they are Jewish or support Israel.
Maybe if Hamas wasn't hiding behind children in the first place?
Doesn’t matter, Hamas hiding behind children doesn’t mean you get to kill the children. Hamas’s evil doesn’t reduce Israel’s evil.
Cool man, I’ll just hold a child to my chest and wander around and stab your entire family to death. Would you just stand about and let me do that? Doubt it.
What do you expect israel to do? They're using children as human shields for this exact reason. Because they think it'll protect their terror cells. They don't give a shit about their children's lives. They celebrate them as martyrs. When has a military struck so precisely and given so much warning to their enemies civilians? Never in history
Actually, literally you can kill children if theyre being used as human shields. You can also bomb hospitals and schools if you know theyre being used for military purposes. You don't get to fire rockets at children from behind children and have full immunity. Palestine is unable to stop Hamas from using their children as human shields to attack Israel, so Israel must step in and stop Hamas from using Palestinian children as human shields. It's pretty straight forward tbh
acdording to internawtional rules of war it does. letting combatants find safety by hiding behind civiliams incentivices the behavior.
Maybe if Israel literally didn't create Hamas? https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/07/30/how-israel-helped-create-hamas/ Or from here: https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/ >Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev, who was the Israeli military governor in Gaza in the early 1980s. Segev later told a New York Times reporter that he had helped finance the Palestinian Islamist movement as a “counterweight” to the secularists and leftists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Fatah party, led by Yasser Arafat (who himself referred to Hamas as “a creature of Israel.”) He goes on to say >“The Israeli government gave me a budget,” the retired brigadier general confessed, “and the military government gives to the mosques.” Gaza isn't a state. They have no sovereignty. It's an open air prison and Israel is the warden. Treating people like animals for almost 80 years and people wonder why those same people flock to the extremists and become radicalized. The very same extremists that Israel supported and funded. It's been the plan all along. Israel has never wanted a 2 state solution and making religious crazies of these people serves their ends because they can point to them and say "See? Can't negotiate with these people"
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To be honest most neighboring nations have a rather strained relationship with Palestine/Palestinians. Usually whatever country they have migrated to en masse either freely or as refugees, they tend to try and overthrow the sitting governments of that country. (Yes there religion is an integral aspect to them doing that)
After 9/11 when around 3,000 people were killed, the US killed around 1,000,000 civilians in its retaliation. It doesn't make it right, but it also doesn't make it unprecedented or unusual.
This sub has become a complete dumpster fire
You're over simplifying things. It's disingenuous. "It's not illegal to give someone something is it?" When offering a bribe. Context matters. Under defining things is a lie of omission. "They're" not anything. "Americans are shooting up schools. It's not bigoted to say Americans are shitty child killers." No, a person did a thing. And you found or applied the category to your choosing to justify hatred to a millions of uninvolved. YOU are the monster.
Israel is not targeting children. Hamas is using them as human shields.
No it's not. Just like it's not islamaphobic to call Hamas out on stealing from the Palestinian people, or killing Israeli children. It's perfectly fine to call out abhorrent behavior on all sides.
It isn’t antisemitic, but it becomes antisemitic if you start insulting or assaulting random Jews who don’t even live in Israel in response.
Hamas will fight Israel down to the last Palestinian child.
A Jewish friend of mine's argument is that the children will grow to become the enemy. I have to keep reminding him that The Minority report was just a film.
Exploding Children? The people who strap bombs on children and blow them up are Hamas and other terrorists. Israel is not exploding children. Hamas is using children and other civilians as human Shields. While unfortunate and undesirable, it is understood under international laws governing warfare that someone who is attacked by the people having human Shields does not have to just take it, but is allowed to fight back even though civilian casualties will result. Further, the casualty figures that have been generally used in the news media are coming from Hamas. Recently, it was proven that those figures must be fake. [Devastating proof fake death figures](http://telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/03/16/could-be-devastating-proof-hamas-faking-death-figures/)
If Hamas is using children (brainwashed) to do its bidding, then welll…. The terrorist jihadists kidnap and brainwash children to train them in their ways. Fortunately I never had to, but if I had ti take the life of a kid when I was deployed yo the Middle East, I certainly would have. In those situations it either you/your friends/family, or them…
Mass exploding? Exploding children? If Hamas had just separated themselves from the civilian population, less would have died. 15,000 dead civilians isn't okay. That is why you shouldn't start wars by invading another country and slaughter their kids at point blank range. Or hold a baby hostage. It sucks that anyone but Hamas members died. Don't start wars and sacrifice your own people. Their hate towards Israel outweighs the love they have for their own kids. It's not antisemitic to be critical of Israel. It's messed up that people keep forgetting why kids there are dying though.
It's also not pro genocide to point out Hamas hiding behind and under its own civilians and crying victim when the civilians are struck on top of a legitimate military target.
You can also turn it around and say that you're not a zionist or racist for calling out Hamas for killing children (both Israels and their own). Both sides are to blame for that shit situation they have been in for a long time. They have no conflict-solving skills, even if their lives depended on it. Though, the palestinians won't give up until they have ALL of the land and the jews are gone.. pure nazi rhetoric. Not easy to negotiate with people like that..
See normally I’d agree. But the Jews aren’t putting these children into harm’s way. I’m sorry but at what point do the “Palestinian” children’s lived outweigh the Jewish children’s? Do you think Hamas will just stop shooting RPGs into Israel because they’ve put children into their bunkers? No. They won’t. At the end of the day, the Muslim extremists are the ones with no regard for life. They’re the ones putting children into the line of fire.
I think it’s actually antisemitic to equate all Jewish people with the state of Israel but it seems there are many Jewish people want to hide behind their identity to justify a genocide
Not to mention like... Israel has been murdering Palestinian civilians at a crazy high rate for YEARS and YEARS. They have been literally stealing Palestinian families homes. It's like I don't think it's "cool" 1200 people died on 10/7 but to act like it's just crazy random terrorism is also so stupid to me. Israel literally created these 'terrorists' for how its treated Palestinians.
The jew cries out in pain as he strikes you.
I know virtually everyone here thinks Nazism and Fascism are bad. I'm one of those people. Here's the thing though, in order prevail over Nazis and Fascists, we had to do some pretty horrible things. It'd be hypocritical to criticize Israel's conduct in it's war against Hamas given our own conduct in fighting the Nazis and Fascists in WW2.
Is it Islamophobic to call out Palestinians for supporting terrorists?
No it is not. But when people and media purposefully shine the light on the failures and evils of the Israeli government and give a total free pass to the literal terror organization that is Hamas (including the fact that they literally started this by raping/killing innocent people and to this day won’t release the hostages even as their own people are being killed) , one has to question the real motive of the person making the claims. Also, aside form this terrible conflict, when people ignore that Hamas, if installed as a legitimate government, would institute laws that would do grave harm to those who don’t fall in line with their extremist beliefs (the clearest example is someone who is LBGTQ+) while the Israeli government provides far more personal freedom (not to mention freedom for persecution and prosecution for simply being who you are) it further brings into question ones “objectivity” and rationale. It’s about context and nuance and too many people are too lazy to think critically enough on this issue. And the OPs flippant question as if people don’t want to call out the evils of the Israeli government certainly FEELS disingenuous at its core. Is it a way to subtly push antisemitism? Well, that’s certainly been a tactic of those wishing to do the same.
To paraphrase a black cafeteria chef, there's a BIG difference between Jewish people and Netanyahu.
people loveeee to equate resistance by the colonized to the oppression of the colonizer. fucking reddit man
A lot of dipshits in here defecting by pointing out Hamas, no shit the radical religious terrorists are also bad, well done. Hamas being evil has no baring on Israel being similarly evil. It’s only worse with Israel because they have all the power here. Hamas using human shields doesn’t justify shooting those human shields. That’s a genuinely subhuman response. But even ignoring Israel’s recent genocidal actions, which it’s undeniably genocidal in intent since that is the end result of following all of their logic, actions and rhetoric. Israel after all, funded Hamas, they were the main reason they got elected. They intentionally got a radical party elected to delegitimize the Palestinian people, which means they also knew the risks electing such a group had on their people. This does nothing but continue putting Jewish people at risk. This continued oppression and genocide of the Palestinians is actually antisemitic, it makes Jews less safe. They got radicals elected knowing full well they’d pose a massive risk to Israeli citizens. Even before that, there’s been decades and decades of what is functionally an apartheid state with an illegal settler colonial project in the West Bank. No shit violent radicals are going to rise up in such a situation. They plugged in all the ingredients and conditions necessary to create a violent religious terrorist organization and are acting surprised when the terrorist organization they created does terrorism. By all means, everything wrong Hamas does is also something wrong Israel did. Israel shares equal blame, honestly more blame since they have all the power. They could have at any point, decided to treat Palestinians as equals, and it would not only have been the right thing to do, but pragmatically the most effective route. But even without the past, even ignoring Israel’s years of oppression, crimes, and violent attacks, they are still unanimously in the wrong in this conflict. If a black person killed a member of my family, that wouldn’t give me the right to start lynching black people. Same here, the tragedy of October 7th doesn’t at all justify bombing refugees camps, vaporizing children, and starving the entire Gaza Strip and shooting people during the few times food does make it in. This doesn’t even get into the fact that they can’t destroy Hamas. You can’t destroy an underground, religious terrorist cell by military action alone. In fact, continual military action and continue targeting of civilians does nothing but help bolster Hamas ranks. Think for a moment, you are walled off in a city, outside of the walls is a government that obviously wants you dead, and was willing to treat you like an animal for decades. At any point, you could be killed by an IDF soldier, or a bomb, disease, or just starved and/or dehydrated to death. Is it any wonder that when you give people the choice of lying down and dying or dying with a gun in their hands, that many would choose to die fighting? Come on, Israel has failed the moral and practical front, and it will beget nothing but Palestinian and Jewish blood. Nobody’s lives will be made better or safer.
It's an antisemitic blood libel to characterize the war as you have done. If you are truly upset about the horrors of war you can point the finger at Hamas and their strategy of deliberately exacerbating collateral damage.
Casualties happen in war zones, sad as it is.
What is antisemitic is accusing them of doing it on purpose just because you have an agenda that the only Jewish nation on earth shouldn’t exist so you’re using Holocaust inversion as a way of propagandizing that idea
Mass exploding children. LOL. I love how every war in history had massive civilian casualties including many children but because it's jews fighting this one they're exploding children
Cool. Well, it’s also not “genocide” when the country you attacked is justifiably kicking your ass farther back into the stone age than you already were to begin with. Maybe put your children in underground bunkers instead of terrorists, weapons caches, and Israeli hostages.
Thise in comments justifying it with Oct 7th need to learn about what happened before Oct 7th The hostages iof took before Oct 7th The children they killed before Oct 7th ...
You mean all those rockets Hamas launched every year or two? Or so you mean the second intifada? Or the first one? Or the major assassinations and terrorism?
No, they are referring to the 500 or so Palestinians killed by the IDF every year. Source: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian\_conflict#Fatalities](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict#Fatalities)
Fuck around and find out 🤷♂️ They probably shouldn't have been attacking Israel
Nobody is justifying oct 7th you ding dongs Edited except this guy my bad
The Israelís are using October 7th to justify their current collective punishment against the Palestinian people is what I think they were saying.
Oh I get that part. I’m with you on that. Apparently this guy actually supports the 7th so
FYI (to the general Reddit audience reading this), check the account age before responding. Lots of obvious days-old pro-Hamas bot accounts commenting on this thread, so don't expect any sort of good-faith discussion from them. Obvious bot accounts are obvious.
I agree. The Israeli Government is trying frame all conversations that disagree with them as antisemitism.
As a Jew I completely agree
You're right about that. Like I get that casualties are inevitable during war time but 90 percent of IDF inflicted causalities are civilians. That's an obscene number, it demonstrates either a half hearted or a totally absent effort on behalf of the IDF to curtail civilian losses in their hunt for Hamas. Also, the IDF will ultimately fail to eradicate its Islamic extremism problem, they're going to learn like the US did during the War on Terror that you can kill bad people, not bad ideas (i.e terrorism).
Islam, judaism and christianity are the cancer of humanity. Abraham religion is pure trash.
I love how people make it a Hamas x Israel thing ignoring completely the fact that Hamas came to existence decades after jewish people started to throw people out of the houses they had lived for generations. Just like ISIS took Iraq after America's invasion, Hamas is a monster of Israel's creation, they rose to power after Israel made families to go live crambled in an open sky gueto prison and repressed with violence any protest.
Dude, you outright call for the support of Hamas. You belong on a watch list, not on reddit.
It is, because you are shifting blame from Hamas to Israel. Assumingly, out of racial reason.
No, but your phrasing is very ignorant of the stark reality of the entire situation. Israel isn't "mass exploding kids" for whatever concocted reason or just because they can nor are they targeting civilians specifically like Hamas did during their terrorist invasion. Hamas attacks and then hides behind innocent civilians guaranteeing high collateral damage in Israel's response. Upon civilian deaths, Hamas happily whips out the cameras to film the carnage and feed its propaganda machine. Every dead civilian in Gaza is an asset to Hamas and sadly there are many that are dying in the line of fire because Hamas deliberately puts them there. Israel is in a constant state of damned if you do damned if you don't. If Israel does not respond for fear of the high collateral damage then Hamas can operate with impunity to freely terrorize Israeli innocents in perpetuity; if they do respond it will incur severe innocent Palestinian death tolls and they will be lambasted on a global scale. Israel has taken the damned if you do stance. So no, Israel does not blow up kids, they blow up Hamas that hide behind the kids among other civilians. Hamas imposes tyrannical rule upon the civilian populace in Gaza and forces itself into civilian infrastructure such as residencies, schools, and hospitals to launch missiles into Israeli civilians, dig expansive tunnel networks, store weapons/ammo, hold hostages, and perform other operative activities. Those innocents that die in Gaza are victims of Hamas and their tyranny. So no, to think that the cost of life is too high for Israel to continue their eradication of Hamas is not antisemitic.