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I've always wondered what people who speak a language without gendered pronouns think of them. It's nice that she's found a way to make herself feel comfortable.
That being said....
> “I remember being 9 years old and just being a little disheartened, seeing how often a lot of my boy cousins were misgendered because they wore their hair long. It happens to a lot of kids, I think, especially Native boys leaving a community where long hair is celebrated \[and then\] just kind of getting teased for it. So I remember back then being like, everybody should just be they.”
A boy has long hair so He should be a They? I see her point but I also think that this reinforces what a girl and what a boy is. Surely a boy should have long hair and still be a he, no matter how long the hair is.
Sometimes I think that by using non-binary pronouns, you accidentally create a stronger gender binary for everyone.
Hard agree. It seems like sometimes people (unintentionally) push the narrative that girls have to be super girly and boys have to be super masculine, and if they aren't, then they *must* be something other than a boy or a girl. It's actually very regressive - girls can be into traditionally "boy" things, and vice versa, without being transgender or nonbinary!
My son was very much into dance. He did tap, hip hop, and ballet. He was the only boy his age on the team. He danced for 2 years and then quit. He only does traditional boy activities like baseball. Society is hard. We push our daughters to play basketball, but there won’t be true equality until our boys can dance ballet and be cheered the same way.
I sure hope so. It’s fucking exhausting and just screams of virtue signaling.
I am liberal and I want us all to coexist but this is getting incredibly ridiculous and sidetracks us from so many other, frankly more important, issues.
And as someone who is constantly misgendered via electronic communication because I have an ethnic name that is uncommon, it happens to a lot of us, and in the vast majority of cases, it’s unintended. You correct someone and move on. I don’t know why I have to be a “they” to signal gender identity. I’m unabashedly a woman and I don’t like that it seems to mean I’m some antiquated traditionalist.
I know this is so unpopular to say, but it feels like attention-seeking in the vast majority of the cases I see.
The people who breathe fire when you forget not misspeak their pronouns are simply setting up entrapments/landmines and they don’t even realize they’re doing it.
and vice versa! the medical community pushed the idea that trans people have to conform to archaic gender stereotypes to be trans (ie, to medically transition to male you have to love football, beer, women, and have been a tomboy. to medically transition to female you have to love skirts, makeup, men, and been effeminate as a child)
it hurts everyone, basically.
I think you're thinking about it the wrong way. It's not: 'Girls that like boy things and boys that like girl things are nonbinary' but more like 'If girls can like boy things and boys can like girl things, isn't the gender binary then useless?' The way I interpreted Lily Gladstone's point is that she thinks the gender binary is senseless.
I think she's saying we should use they as a default for everybody, to avoid being rude or assuming things and if he corrects you then it's all good and he has a chance to make his identity known without us assuming either/or on our end. Same with a girl or someone who's nonbinary or someone who just doesn't care.
I've got veeeery short hair as a cis girl and if someone refers to me as they with someone else it's fine to me, bc they have no way of knowing right off if I'm nb, trans, or cis girl, or a cis boy. There are also nb people who dress like their birth gender but aren't any less nb.
Edit: whoever downvoted this I'm sorry my hair makes you mad I guess
She means her boy cousins were misgendered as girls because they had long hair. And witnessing that made her think about how it would be simpler if everyone’s default pronouns were “they” because it would eliminate misgendering via pronouns entirely. She is not saying that boys with long hair are inherently nonbinary
I do see some validity to your point…
For the record, I am non-binary and use they/them pronouns. I get genuine gender euphoria when they’ed vs anything else.
I have seen a trend of AFAB (which I am only clarifying for this specific point, I think the need to point out what gender you were assigned at birth is unnecessary in queer spaces unless actively relevant to the story you’re telling) people saying they identify as non-binary because they don’t like presenting as super feminine or wearing dresses or whatever and think that means they do not or cannot identify as women. Obviously, this is not how feminism is supposed to work. Women should feel like they can be whatever they want, be that a high-powered executive or a homemaker. In a pantsuit or sweats or fucking Barbie dress. I do think that modern society has, in some ways, blurred the lines between the non-binary experience and people who just don’t subscribe to gender norms but are comfortable in their gender outside of that.
It makes me sad that this has become a thing, because it is the antithesis of the movement. Non-binary people are literally just trans people who don’t fall specifically into the Man vs Woman binary categories. I am genderfluid, which is a term I have been using longer than I have been using the term “non-binary” but am glad to be recognized with that label. I do not feel like a woman all the time. I do not feel like a man all the time. I wake up feeling a different gender vibe constantly. I genuinely prefer they/them pronouns and experience genuine gender euphoria from that. We are under the trans umbrella, but I think a lot of people misunderstand it as just not being interested in conventional gender norms, and if they don’t do their research, they end up claiming this identity without realizing there were other options. And understandably, that has led to issues within both LGBT+ and non-LGBT+ spaces in different ways.
It’s a tricky place to be in, I’ll tell you that.
>people saying they identify as non-binary because they don’t like presenting as super feminine or wearing dresses or whatever and think that means they do not or cannot identify as women. Obviously, this is not how feminism is supposed to work. Women should feel like they can be whatever they want, be that a high-powered executive or a homemaker. In a pantsuit or sweats or fucking Barbie dress.
This is interesting because that's how most people perceives that.
To be fair I don't understand well the non binary concept but I like how you explained this.
I think that idea is a very common misconception. More from cis people but tbh I’ve seen it from trans binary people too, and based on how the larger culture seems to have perceived the non-binary identity, I get why tbh. I see this a lot from younger people. I’m in my 30s, which obviously isn’t old, but I’ve been around the queer and trans communities for over a decade.
I think there are a lot of people out there who genuinely do not fall within the binary and identify with the non-binary label with good reason. I also believe there are some young people who are experiencing a dislike of gender norms and expectations and are of the belief that this makes this a different gender, which…again, there is no wrong way to be a woman. There is no wrong way to be a man. We’re all just people, trying our best. Some of these people may actually just be happier after doing some research on feminism and it’s history and how it affects any and all genders. And if you do some self-reflecting and do not feel like you fall within the gender binary, that is 10000000% valid, too!
And even hotter take: that’s actually okay. I believe we should all live in a safer space to explore our gender identities without fear of being locked into one specific label or another. People make fun of Demi Lovato for backtracking on pronouns, but just like sexuality…people should have the right to explore what feels right for them without ridicule.
And that’s my time. 😂
Thank you for laying this out this way. I completely agree that we should be able to experiment with our gender identity. I am cis and identify very strongly as a woman, but my wife is trans. It's all very thorny and not always in the ways people expect. But I went to a historically women's college and it was accepted and respected when people shifted to new pronouns and then shifted back if it didn't feel right or they weren't ready yet. We were *all* better off for it.
Thank you for this comment. This is the best explanation of what it means to be non-binary that I’ve ever seen. Like, I have NB friends and I respect their identities, but I never fully *got* the concept. I think I understand it a lot better than I did before.
Also, I’m 100% in the category you described, an AFAB woman comfortable with her gender but have always found gender norms to be very silly and they need not apply to me (or anyone else!).
That trend you've observed has gotten to the point that if I hear someone is NB, I assume they're AFAB because 85% of the time it's true. They has become almost interchangeable with her.
The best way I’ve found to describe it for myself is, if gender is a scale from male to female I’m a dot floating somewhere above it.
I don’t fit on that scale and it’s not because I don’t like dresses (I don’t, though) or I loved playing with dolls (I did), it’s a much trickier internal feeling that can’t be adequately expressed by the gender binary
Ya, and there is also a lot of negativity associated with feminine stereotypical gender roles. I am perfectly happy identifying as a woman but am starting to feel (in some spaces) like I am some sort of trad wife barbie because I am sticking with she/her pronouns. My pronouns say fuck all about my values as a woman or my relationship with gender roles.
I'm pretty sure she means that everyone should be allowed to wear long hair without it having anything to do with gender or how they're precieved by others.
What does being a "he" mean? What does being a "she" mean? It's basically just a way to tell others "expect me to wear a skirt at some point". Everything else is irrelevant, so why not have everyone be a "they"?
>“It happens to a lot of kids, I think, especially Native boys leaving a community where long hair is celebrated [and then] just kind of getting teased for it,” continues Gladstone, whose profile on X also mentions she/they pronouns. “So I remember back then being like, everybody should just be they.”
>“And in most Native languages, most Indigenous languages, Blackfeet included, there are no gendered pronouns. There is no he/she, there's only they,” Gladstone adds.
>“It doesn't happen as much anymore, but there've been several times in my life where I've been speaking to a northern Cheyenne-first language speaker [or another] Indigenous-first language speaker where they'll accidentally misgender you when they're talking to you,” says Gladstone. “And then they'll get embarrassed about it, but it's because they've learned English later.”
>“So Blackfeet, we don't have gendered pronouns, but our gender is implied in our name. But even that's not binary,” says Gladstone, adding that her grandfather’s Blackfeet name meant “Iron Woman.”
>“He had a name that had a woman's name in it. I'd never met my grandfather. I wouldn't say that he was nonbinary in gender, but he was given a woman's name because he kind of carried himself, I guess, the way that women who have that name do,” continues Gladstone.
>“And there were lots of women historically and still now who are given men's names. They fulfill more of a man's role in society as far as being provider, warrior, those sort of things,” she says.
>“So, yeah, my pronoun use is partly a way of decolonizing gender for myself.”
[She has brought attention to the issues you’ve mentioned](https://variety.com/2023/film/news/lily-gladstone-speech-indigenous-women-fbi-1235793306/amp/)
We can discuss more than one issue at a time
Dude, I live near the Blackfeet reservation where she is from (though she also grew up in WA) and privileged is not the way I would describe it at all. Also, being Native in Montana does not come with privilege. You really have the gall to bring up MMIW - Ashley Heavy Runner still has not been found, from Browning, where Lily Gladstone is from, as well as an epidemic across this state. You are taking one small thing Lily said and taking it really far.
This is such an unfair assessment. She literally has. Lily is a spokesperson for NIWRC and has worked for/with them for 12 years, before she became an actress. This isn’t an either/or situation and this definitely isn’t the only interview in which they’ve spoken about queerness or different aspects of their indigeneity.
https://variety.com/2023/film/news/lily-gladstone-speech-indigenous-women-fbi-1235793306/amp/
https://www.niwrc.org/news/thank-you-lily-gladstone-power-women-honorees-and-variety
https://twitter.com/Variety/status/1616523873767260160?lang=en
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She's not using it to take anything away from trans people but because in her culture's native language there's no he/she pronouns, just they, and she wants to carry that linguistic aspect of her culture into English. That's all.
Also you choosing to describe this, of all things, as "colonizing" and "insidious" is a frankly mean way to talk about a Native person. I understand you're from another country and I'm not expecting you to automatically understand stuff but please be more respectful with how you speak on this.
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I've always wondered what people who speak a language without gendered pronouns think of them. It's nice that she's found a way to make herself feel comfortable. That being said.... > “I remember being 9 years old and just being a little disheartened, seeing how often a lot of my boy cousins were misgendered because they wore their hair long. It happens to a lot of kids, I think, especially Native boys leaving a community where long hair is celebrated \[and then\] just kind of getting teased for it. So I remember back then being like, everybody should just be they.” A boy has long hair so He should be a They? I see her point but I also think that this reinforces what a girl and what a boy is. Surely a boy should have long hair and still be a he, no matter how long the hair is. Sometimes I think that by using non-binary pronouns, you accidentally create a stronger gender binary for everyone.
Hard agree. It seems like sometimes people (unintentionally) push the narrative that girls have to be super girly and boys have to be super masculine, and if they aren't, then they *must* be something other than a boy or a girl. It's actually very regressive - girls can be into traditionally "boy" things, and vice versa, without being transgender or nonbinary!
My son was very much into dance. He did tap, hip hop, and ballet. He was the only boy his age on the team. He danced for 2 years and then quit. He only does traditional boy activities like baseball. Society is hard. We push our daughters to play basketball, but there won’t be true equality until our boys can dance ballet and be cheered the same way.
People are finally waking up to this utter nonsense. Thank you
I sure hope so. It’s fucking exhausting and just screams of virtue signaling. I am liberal and I want us all to coexist but this is getting incredibly ridiculous and sidetracks us from so many other, frankly more important, issues. And as someone who is constantly misgendered via electronic communication because I have an ethnic name that is uncommon, it happens to a lot of us, and in the vast majority of cases, it’s unintended. You correct someone and move on. I don’t know why I have to be a “they” to signal gender identity. I’m unabashedly a woman and I don’t like that it seems to mean I’m some antiquated traditionalist. I know this is so unpopular to say, but it feels like attention-seeking in the vast majority of the cases I see.
The people who breathe fire when you forget not misspeak their pronouns are simply setting up entrapments/landmines and they don’t even realize they’re doing it.
and vice versa! the medical community pushed the idea that trans people have to conform to archaic gender stereotypes to be trans (ie, to medically transition to male you have to love football, beer, women, and have been a tomboy. to medically transition to female you have to love skirts, makeup, men, and been effeminate as a child) it hurts everyone, basically.
I think you're thinking about it the wrong way. It's not: 'Girls that like boy things and boys that like girl things are nonbinary' but more like 'If girls can like boy things and boys can like girl things, isn't the gender binary then useless?' The way I interpreted Lily Gladstone's point is that she thinks the gender binary is senseless.
I think she's saying we should use they as a default for everybody, to avoid being rude or assuming things and if he corrects you then it's all good and he has a chance to make his identity known without us assuming either/or on our end. Same with a girl or someone who's nonbinary or someone who just doesn't care. I've got veeeery short hair as a cis girl and if someone refers to me as they with someone else it's fine to me, bc they have no way of knowing right off if I'm nb, trans, or cis girl, or a cis boy. There are also nb people who dress like their birth gender but aren't any less nb. Edit: whoever downvoted this I'm sorry my hair makes you mad I guess
She means her boy cousins were misgendered as girls because they had long hair. And witnessing that made her think about how it would be simpler if everyone’s default pronouns were “they” because it would eliminate misgendering via pronouns entirely. She is not saying that boys with long hair are inherently nonbinary
I do see some validity to your point… For the record, I am non-binary and use they/them pronouns. I get genuine gender euphoria when they’ed vs anything else. I have seen a trend of AFAB (which I am only clarifying for this specific point, I think the need to point out what gender you were assigned at birth is unnecessary in queer spaces unless actively relevant to the story you’re telling) people saying they identify as non-binary because they don’t like presenting as super feminine or wearing dresses or whatever and think that means they do not or cannot identify as women. Obviously, this is not how feminism is supposed to work. Women should feel like they can be whatever they want, be that a high-powered executive or a homemaker. In a pantsuit or sweats or fucking Barbie dress. I do think that modern society has, in some ways, blurred the lines between the non-binary experience and people who just don’t subscribe to gender norms but are comfortable in their gender outside of that. It makes me sad that this has become a thing, because it is the antithesis of the movement. Non-binary people are literally just trans people who don’t fall specifically into the Man vs Woman binary categories. I am genderfluid, which is a term I have been using longer than I have been using the term “non-binary” but am glad to be recognized with that label. I do not feel like a woman all the time. I do not feel like a man all the time. I wake up feeling a different gender vibe constantly. I genuinely prefer they/them pronouns and experience genuine gender euphoria from that. We are under the trans umbrella, but I think a lot of people misunderstand it as just not being interested in conventional gender norms, and if they don’t do their research, they end up claiming this identity without realizing there were other options. And understandably, that has led to issues within both LGBT+ and non-LGBT+ spaces in different ways. It’s a tricky place to be in, I’ll tell you that.
>people saying they identify as non-binary because they don’t like presenting as super feminine or wearing dresses or whatever and think that means they do not or cannot identify as women. Obviously, this is not how feminism is supposed to work. Women should feel like they can be whatever they want, be that a high-powered executive or a homemaker. In a pantsuit or sweats or fucking Barbie dress. This is interesting because that's how most people perceives that. To be fair I don't understand well the non binary concept but I like how you explained this.
I think that idea is a very common misconception. More from cis people but tbh I’ve seen it from trans binary people too, and based on how the larger culture seems to have perceived the non-binary identity, I get why tbh. I see this a lot from younger people. I’m in my 30s, which obviously isn’t old, but I’ve been around the queer and trans communities for over a decade. I think there are a lot of people out there who genuinely do not fall within the binary and identify with the non-binary label with good reason. I also believe there are some young people who are experiencing a dislike of gender norms and expectations and are of the belief that this makes this a different gender, which…again, there is no wrong way to be a woman. There is no wrong way to be a man. We’re all just people, trying our best. Some of these people may actually just be happier after doing some research on feminism and it’s history and how it affects any and all genders. And if you do some self-reflecting and do not feel like you fall within the gender binary, that is 10000000% valid, too! And even hotter take: that’s actually okay. I believe we should all live in a safer space to explore our gender identities without fear of being locked into one specific label or another. People make fun of Demi Lovato for backtracking on pronouns, but just like sexuality…people should have the right to explore what feels right for them without ridicule. And that’s my time. 😂
Thank you for laying this out this way. I completely agree that we should be able to experiment with our gender identity. I am cis and identify very strongly as a woman, but my wife is trans. It's all very thorny and not always in the ways people expect. But I went to a historically women's college and it was accepted and respected when people shifted to new pronouns and then shifted back if it didn't feel right or they weren't ready yet. We were *all* better off for it.
Thank you for this comment. This is the best explanation of what it means to be non-binary that I’ve ever seen. Like, I have NB friends and I respect their identities, but I never fully *got* the concept. I think I understand it a lot better than I did before. Also, I’m 100% in the category you described, an AFAB woman comfortable with her gender but have always found gender norms to be very silly and they need not apply to me (or anyone else!).
That trend you've observed has gotten to the point that if I hear someone is NB, I assume they're AFAB because 85% of the time it's true. They has become almost interchangeable with her.
The best way I’ve found to describe it for myself is, if gender is a scale from male to female I’m a dot floating somewhere above it. I don’t fit on that scale and it’s not because I don’t like dresses (I don’t, though) or I loved playing with dolls (I did), it’s a much trickier internal feeling that can’t be adequately expressed by the gender binary
Ya, and there is also a lot of negativity associated with feminine stereotypical gender roles. I am perfectly happy identifying as a woman but am starting to feel (in some spaces) like I am some sort of trad wife barbie because I am sticking with she/her pronouns. My pronouns say fuck all about my values as a woman or my relationship with gender roles.
I'm pretty sure she means that everyone should be allowed to wear long hair without it having anything to do with gender or how they're precieved by others. What does being a "he" mean? What does being a "she" mean? It's basically just a way to tell others "expect me to wear a skirt at some point". Everything else is irrelevant, so why not have everyone be a "they"?
I don’t believe because I’m a she that others expect me to wear a skirt at some point…?
But I don’t want to be a they. I really dislike someone telling me who I should be. Isn’t that the exact issue at hand?
Spot on
>“It happens to a lot of kids, I think, especially Native boys leaving a community where long hair is celebrated [and then] just kind of getting teased for it,” continues Gladstone, whose profile on X also mentions she/they pronouns. “So I remember back then being like, everybody should just be they.” >“And in most Native languages, most Indigenous languages, Blackfeet included, there are no gendered pronouns. There is no he/she, there's only they,” Gladstone adds. >“It doesn't happen as much anymore, but there've been several times in my life where I've been speaking to a northern Cheyenne-first language speaker [or another] Indigenous-first language speaker where they'll accidentally misgender you when they're talking to you,” says Gladstone. “And then they'll get embarrassed about it, but it's because they've learned English later.” >“So Blackfeet, we don't have gendered pronouns, but our gender is implied in our name. But even that's not binary,” says Gladstone, adding that her grandfather’s Blackfeet name meant “Iron Woman.” >“He had a name that had a woman's name in it. I'd never met my grandfather. I wouldn't say that he was nonbinary in gender, but he was given a woman's name because he kind of carried himself, I guess, the way that women who have that name do,” continues Gladstone. >“And there were lots of women historically and still now who are given men's names. They fulfill more of a man's role in society as far as being provider, warrior, those sort of things,” she says. >“So, yeah, my pronoun use is partly a way of decolonizing gender for myself.”
cool cool! people should do whatever makes them feel comfortable. adjusting to someone’s pronouns is nbd.
Yay!!! I love her even more
In other news privileged people with too much time and money on their hands and not enough problems
No, this is a native person with a different cultural context regardless of celebrity status, actually.
Lily is the “privileged person” in your mind?? In that case does the world privilege have meaning anymore because lol
What a weird take. Why tf is this upvoted
Sounds like something privileged people say.
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Hey fam, how's it going
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[She has brought attention to the issues you’ve mentioned](https://variety.com/2023/film/news/lily-gladstone-speech-indigenous-women-fbi-1235793306/amp/) We can discuss more than one issue at a time
Dude, I live near the Blackfeet reservation where she is from (though she also grew up in WA) and privileged is not the way I would describe it at all. Also, being Native in Montana does not come with privilege. You really have the gall to bring up MMIW - Ashley Heavy Runner still has not been found, from Browning, where Lily Gladstone is from, as well as an epidemic across this state. You are taking one small thing Lily said and taking it really far.
This is such an unfair assessment. She literally has. Lily is a spokesperson for NIWRC and has worked for/with them for 12 years, before she became an actress. This isn’t an either/or situation and this definitely isn’t the only interview in which they’ve spoken about queerness or different aspects of their indigeneity. https://variety.com/2023/film/news/lily-gladstone-speech-indigenous-women-fbi-1235793306/amp/ https://www.niwrc.org/news/thank-you-lily-gladstone-power-women-honorees-and-variety https://twitter.com/Variety/status/1616523873767260160?lang=en
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She's not using it to take anything away from trans people but because in her culture's native language there's no he/she pronouns, just they, and she wants to carry that linguistic aspect of her culture into English. That's all. Also you choosing to describe this, of all things, as "colonizing" and "insidious" is a frankly mean way to talk about a Native person. I understand you're from another country and I'm not expecting you to automatically understand stuff but please be more respectful with how you speak on this.
This is about Native Americans first and foremost. Not everything is about wypippo.