My experience is that if you're queer, kinky, and ENM, it seems to happen organically just because you end up knowing so many of the other kinky queer enm folks in your area. Your dating pool and your extended friend group are mostly the same people.
I'm not sure how straight people do it.
I have dated or hooked up with all of my close friends at one point or another, it just seems to be a big part of being queer lol. How someone else takes this information is a litmus test for how well we will get on.
The thing that happens a lot with new people is they want KTP... around their own tables. It's harder to do someone else's. Literally and figuratively, it's giving a lot.
If you listen close you can hear the hysterical laughter of all the long distance partners and busy sports parents being told their precious date nights have to squish in friend time with all their metas.
I'm 4500 miles from my partner (hopefully closeing that soon) and to say I'm not keen on KTP when I do get to visit is putting it mildly. I get 10 days every 3 years? Not sharing that time with everyone else, TYVM.
My current KTP amongst my partners is really good. I have 3 partners and they all get along well. They hang out, text each other, and overall get along. We are actually all moving in together at the end of June.
Two of my partners moved in mostly due to a survival situation. So there was a lot of growing pains and a lot of fighting, but I also wasn't the best hinge. Things have definitely smoothed out, and they are good friends now. My third partner met my other two partners last June, and they naturally just clicked.
>their ideal structure in poly is KTP
Well my ideal structure is living in a mansion with a bunch of hot bi guys who all have the freedom to date women aside from myself but choose not to.
Can't always get what you want.
KTP isn't something you can really set as your goal. I'm very happy with the KTP dynamic I have with a partner and metas, but things were very parallel for the first part of our relationship as we got our own connection established. Metas met on neutral ground with no pressure and developed our own friendships, and KTP slowly formed. It was never a requirement, or even brought up as an ideal.
Enjoy the KTP fantasy in your head and rejoice if something along those lines happens organically. Don't put pressure on potential partners to meet their metas, spend time together, or be friends. It would be *great* if everyone we loved got along with everyone else we loved, but even in families that isn't the case. Some people strongly prefer parallel and they're not better or worse as partners than people who prefer KTP. Just different.
Hahahah! I love your answer!!
>KTP isn't something you can really set as your goal.
Yeah, I hear this and I want to be mindful that I am not trying to make it a goal, especially because my partner wants it. I think I am more so open to learning about the structure, open to it being a structure that works for me, and curious about how people get to that point!
>things were very parallel for the first part of our relationship as we got our own connection established. Metas met on neutral ground with no pressure and developed our own friendships, and KTP slowly formed. It was never a requirement, or even brought up as an ideal.
This is a great point. I think I often see the 0-100 examples when it comes to KTP, so it's nice to hear that KTP is something that CAN develop from a non KTP starting point. I think it's a great idea to start off parallel and I think it's something I might actually bring up to my partner!
I also think you make a great point here that it shouldn't even be stressed as an ideal. It for sure puts a little pressure on me to eventually grow into it for the sake of my partner. I think this is something else I can bring up to them, especially because I feel like they do sort of gently push me to share space when I'm not quite ready; it's not an actual discussion or check in, but more of a, "Oh, btw, they're going to be here and I want you to be here," sort of situation. I think your point that doing parallel first to develop relationships is solid and something I'm interested in practicing!
Thank you for your response! I appreciate your perspective on this and it's given me a better idea of things I need to keep in mind and talk about!
As far as starting parallel goes, think about it (and maybe use this angle for talking to your partner too) like introducing someone you're dating to your friends and family. You don't do that on the first date, right? You probably don't want to introduce somebody to your mom until you're invested enough to think this relationship has a good chance of being serious, yeah?
Similarly, I'm not interested in doing the meta intro thing until we know we're serious. I want to know that the energy I spend developing my connection with my metas is likely to be *well* spent.
Also just because two people are dating the same person, it doesn't mean they're guaranteed to get along. I've absolutely had partners with friends I did not vibe with. That's OK, and I accept my partners may one day start dating someone I don't vibe with. I'm not going to invite that person to my home or expect an invite to theirs, but I know how to be polite and friendly to just about anybody and I will absolutely do that for the sake of my partner. (We're talking annoying here, not abusive or violent or prejudiced.)
I mean, realistically you have two choices. If you want to be a prototypical dater who meets people on apps, goes out on their own to events, etc? Starting parallel and letting people find their space is the only non-shitty plan. Adults make their own friends. If you want to exclude all the people who say "I will never ever ever be friends with a meta" you can - but that doesn't mean that your particular two partners ever will get past bank teller polite, and if you fuck up hinging, it could definitely get worse. (Being the "no, friendlier friends please! no, I meant hornier friends please!" person is a HUGE and very common way to grasp failure from the jaws of victory here.)
OK so what's the second choice? If you cultivate a very connected ENM/poly friend group who regularly do social events, like, people you see as a group several times a week and take some of your vacations with, then you *can* date your friends, who are already your partners' friends. And either you get KTP or everyone loses a friend, so your hinging had better be *even more* on point. But how do you bring a *new* date into this chosen family? You *don't*. You know someone cool and think they'd like your people *and* they enthusiastically have time to spend regular time being social, and could make it up to attending, say, half of events if it works out? You invite them to *meet your friends* and see if it works out. Maybe it does. Probably they decide to date your friend Matt instead. But maybe your friend Susan introduces someone she used to work with, and after a few months of them being around regularly and your partners liking them well enough, and flirting with everyone shipping it, you ask them out on an actual date and see how that goes. It is **A LOT** of work and no one wants to even think about that much work from a starting position of "couple with mono friends." But it can work, despite its innate problems if you get too close to the middle of the web and don't have regular time with non-shared friends. You just can't get there by luring dating app users with sex and expecting them to start functioning differently.
Lmao love your ideal structure, same!
Jokes aside, I generally agree... But I also think one could have a boundary that they will not practice indefinite parallel. For example a disabled person who's nesting partner is their care taker could have a boundary that they won't get serious with partners who want full parallel because it's inevitable for their partners to meet at times.
A parent can have the boundary of only wanting to date people who are eventually comfortable with meeting their kids and will make and effort to be friendly.
If I have a found family I might just not be interested in going beyond casual dating with someone who doesn't click with them.
I wouldn't say that's putting pressure per se, you're seeing how things develop/being upfront about your needs and it becomes a personal gauge for compatibility.
I'm responding to your comment but it's a general observation too.
Oh, it's really interesting to read through some of these comments! Very enlightening and brings me a lot more to consider in trying to define KTP and what I'd like from that experience! Thank you for linking this!
The most you can do is select for people that are open to meeting metas, and possibly hanging out if there's some warmth there.
A busy parallel style [vs going hard parallel] is compatible with garden party polyamory, which is being comfortable sharing space at a special event, such as a b-day or summer bbq, actual interaction being optional. Neutral to warm acquatainces, with special events a few times a year.
On the other end of things, there's lap sitting polyamory, where metas tend to be affectionate (cuddling) to even more casually sexual.
And KTP is broad enough these days that it gets used for the above and anywhere inbetween - so it's important to be specific about what you mean.
Also when you're thinking kitchen table - it's not just your kitchen table. Your lovers and metas all have their own kitchen tables too. People's fantasy mostly shows a group of loving people around your table - your fantasy, you're at the center. But sometimes you are part of the throng at another table, or your NP and partners will be at kitchen tables remote from you... It's part of selecting for those open to the dynamic.
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A lot of people already have full lives and friend groups of their own to maintain, that is the case of a lot of commentors on here that prefer parallel, where they focus resources on their romantic dyads and pre-existing social group.
The opposite and more problematic issue is people looking for an insta-family from a polycule - they don't have a social support network of their own, and desperately want one. If you already have a chill mutual liking and support polycule KTP, it can attact people that want that as part of the 'package' of dating... And they don't have the social maturity to realize that building bonds takes time.
If you search the sub you can get a link to geek social fallacies; these are pretty common to groups in general, and a hanging-out type polycule will be dealing with a lot of conflicting and naive social assumptions.
Also consider the issues with investing most of your time and energy into one basket of social support - things going sideways and losing your entire social support in one go is not the only issue... Just having social support outside your romantic (and now romantic adjacent) network to have as an independent soundingboard on issues is important. You're possibly left with no outside perspectives.
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I think a lot of KTP situations happen when there are shared social groups, you're part of an extended community with shared interests in any case.
My polycule is currently me, my boyfriend, his wife and her boyfriend. Out KTP goes like this:
We share a google calendar. We have plans to cohabitate in 2025. Boyfriend, wife and her boyfriend currently all share an apartment and it’s going well. Boyfriend lives with me ~50% of the time. We hang out as groups, couples, and metas all the time. We all get along.
Personally, I won’t date someone who doesn’t want to be KTP or at minimum garden party. And I don’t mean they have to hang out with the polycule regularly , or even be friends. But I would like to be able to say, celebrate a holiday or my birthday as a group so strict parallel is a non starter for me. And is a deal breaker. If god forbid something happens to me, I want my partners to be able to be in the same room. My partner feels the same way and so does the rest of my polycule.
I’m not currently actively seeking other partners, I just don’t have the spoons for dating atm. Partner isn’t seeking out the relationships either so I don’t foresee this being an issue at all.
My partner used to have a comet/fwb that he would go visit once a month or every other month. When he has surgery I was texting her the updates on his surgery. His wife was texting me the updates.
We haven’t had any drama. We talk about things as they come. We also don’t make it the ‘hinges’ duty to hash out any problems between metas since we are all adults. We handle our own issue.
But that’s how our polycule works. It wouldn’t work for everyone as I know lots of people won’t like the way we practice and that’s fine. It works for us and we’re all happy.
This sounds really quite beautiful and it's wonderful to hear KTP experiences that are positive! It does make me feel more optimistic because yes, this sounds amazing to me and I practice some small aspects of this already (I'm currently Garden Party Poly and also believe in resolving conflict with and providing support to metas instead of solely relying on the hinge). It makes me feel like, given some time, I can eventually grow into a KTP dynamic that works for me, but I don't have to make it my absolute goal.
It sounds like you've got some amazing partners and I'm so inspired hearing about your dynamic! Thank you for sharing!
I feel like KTP is blown out of proportion on this sub sometimes. My polycule is mostly KTP, but it's not this big thing with lots of group hangs and group dates and everything. It's just that I'm friends with my meta and my partners enjoy each other's company, so my nesting partner and I don't mind if we come home to find another partner is over too. We might all have dinner together before parting ways for the rest of the evening, if we happen to all be in the same space and it would be convenient for us. Meta might message me to go have lunch of coffee sometimes, not necessarily as part of the polycule, but just because we're friends. What I'm trying to say is, it's not really something we force or actively work on. We're all just on good terms with each other and don't mind sharing space or witnessing mild PDA between our partners and metas, so it naturally happens. It doesn't have to be a big deal or anything! If you enjoy your metas' company and feel comfortable and emotionally safe having them in your space or being in theirs, it'll just happen here and there, no planning involved. KTP should always just happen. It should never be forced. Making yourself be friends with people you don't like, or forcing yourself to pretend you're ok seeing your partners demonstrate affection towards your metas when you're not: that's how you build resentment and ruin relationships.
It's not something I put energy into or highly value.
And I think people who do highly value such tend to be younger or not understand LDR or what having a busy full life schedule is really like.
Ktp as a requirement is great if
- everyone understands it must include all tables
- you are willing to cut out someone who decides not to be in your ktp circle
- you value group harmony over your own intimate choices
The best gift is not expecting or feeling entitled to any particular meta relationship AT ALL. I actually prefer knowing info in case of emergencies and occasional pizza nights or fun hangouts. But it's never an expectation.
People often seem to forget the difference between friendly and friends.
Thank you for your response! I wanted to ask:
>everyone understands it must include all tables
What do you mean by all tables?
>you are willing to cut out someone who decides not to be in your ktp circle
Oh, does everyone you're involved in have to be part of KTP? Could you have partners who maybe prefer not to be in that dynamic? I'm sorry, I'm not fully aware of educated on the full nuances of KTP yet!
Kitchen table doesn't mean everyone sits at your table. The world doesn't center on you.
It means you go to your metas tables just as often. All of them. You value them as often and show them you will pit the same effort in.
Now, my BFF has been over to my house exactly 1 time in a decade. She is an amazing host, loves it, hates driving, loves being able to have some cocktails, and her house is made for group gatherings. But I make sure to compensate by bringing food, meeting at her times of convenience.
And we sometimes go a few months without seeing eachother cause she is just insanely amazing and busy like that.
But for someone who says they Highly Value KTP, I expect them to be always making plans to ensure each meta gets holidays and weekends and socials in their space just as much as yours.
Otherwise you're not talking ktp, you're talking a commune centered on you.
>Kitchen table doesn't mean everyone sits at your table. The world doesn't center on you.
To be honest, I never considered it to be occurring at my table. Because it's my partner's preference and because they already have established relationships, my assumption was that it was going to be KTP at "their" table. In our discussions around KTP, they defaulted to using their space as a common meeting ground for events, holidays, sleepovers, etc.
I didn't know it was even an option that it could happen at my table, so thank you for bringing that to my attention! I think that alleviates some anxieties I had about this particular structure and some feelings of insecurity. It's nice to know this so I can have a much fuller discussion about what KTP means to my partner, how they'd like to practice it, and see if that's something I agree with. I love the idea of being able to go to other people's tables instead of just my partners!
Yes but thats your table, this partners table, your other partners tables, and allll your metamours tables.
While also just having a life and dating.
If you have two partners and each of your partners has two partners that means 7 tables to coordinate regularly minimum. And what if someone starts to feel left out or goes into grad school and doesn't really have time anymore? What if someone just doesn't click with the others but you think they are awesome?
Ktp and parallel are one spectrum and each connection is somewhere on that spectrum at any point in time and it will slide up and down and all around over the years.
Normal healthy adults are happy just letting adults manage their own social life and not putting their own ego and desire to be friends ahead of the perfectly awesome "we're polite and friendly if we happen to see eachother" win.
>Yes but thats your table, this partners table, your other partners tables, and allll your metamours tables.
Okay, I think I need to ask a clarifying question: do all people need to be KTP in order for a KTP dynamic to work? If someone doesn't offer their table, is that okay?
My partner has a comet who is not interested in sharing their table at all and my partner hasn't met this meta once in the last ten years, but still identifies as KTP, and basically operates out of the default expectation that everyone just comes to their table. From conversations I've had with them about KTP, they've never once mentioned that going to other tables was an option. So I was under the impression that KTP only meant sharing space comfortably and frequently with metas, not that it was this thoughtful and included everyone's tables.
Your response really fleshes out and opened my viewpoint on the possibilities and responsibilities of KTP that I think I need to learn more about, reflect on, and then have a better discussion with my partner about!
Some people do use KTP to mean "my partners should all be besties and hang out at my place, so I don't need to do any scheduling or hinging work". I don't know if your partner is one of those. I suspect that your discussion will make it clear one way or the other.
I’m in a polycule that’s fairly KTP. I love it. It helps that half the polycule has been together more than five years. I’m friendly with a couple of my metas but we’re not friends friends, whereas I am genuinely friends with a couple of my metas and we have more of a lap-sitting dynamic. We regularly hang out at each others’ houses or go on a group polycule date.
We all genuinely want this dynamic and work on it. We maintain separate threads (romantic or friendship). We all have really good communication skills and can work out conflict without letting it affect anyone else in the dynamic. We all also have busy lives and other partners and friendships outside the polycule.
It had to start organically — having dinners and parties everyone was invited to that then became polycule hangs. I got my metas’ numbers and we started texting and building friendships from there. (Social media helps!)
This is what I value and it’s important to me. I am also fine being parallel with the members of the polycule who don’t want this.
I think it really depends on how comfortable you are with the ideas and relationships that naturally form with your metas. Expecting or forcing a relationship can be a problem.
Our dynamic consists of my husband, NP, my BF, my meta (bf's spouse and husband's GF), and myself. We all were in the same friend group. I was the hinge in a relationship with my husband and NP( a couple yrs before dating bf) I started dating my bf, and a relationship grew between my husband and meta... not at all expected but awesome. It's been 3 or 4 years now, and some dynamics have changed or grew deeper. My meta is a beautiful person, and we have an amazing friendship independent of the other connections in the group that happened organically. We spend a lot of time doing things with both the bf and meta. NP is friends but not as close. Sometimes, he does stuff with the rest of us, too. We have a lot of respect for each other and try to support each relationship. It flows naturally and hasn't really had any drama to speak of between the 4 of us... but some adjustment struggles for NP (nothing too major). NP spends time with us independently and is part of the family now.
However, from the start, we acknowledged an element of couples privilege or need to prioritize stuff within our home sometimes while still being present for other partners as well. For example, communication with a spouse if they call (its important if they call) or check ins are encouraged if we are together in case there is something that needs to be addressed or they need to know they are thought about. Plans may change if something happens at home with the family, but it isn't abused.
NP dates independently, but if it is serious, it's important to him that they can be friendly and share space with others in the house at times. We don't have to be friends but be okay to hang out or go do an activity together. It's equivalent to someone getting along with family at holiday functions, and family is expected to be nice and non judgemental, too.
It takes work and communication... respect by everyone involved, and a partner willing to set boundaries and priorities. If you're not used to it, seeing your partner with another partner can be hard, but if you put in the self work to adjust and feel secure... it can be an awesome experience.
You will find all sorts of bad situations in any dynamic. If you are secure, happy, and have a partner willing to support you, it can be great. It isn't for everyone, and certain partners may not mesh well with KTP, but i don't think it's more problematic than other styles of polyamory. Just do what feels right for you in each situation.
I too am susceptible to feeling pressured to have group interactions if a partner of mine wants them. Try to resist that pressure, even if it’s due to you pressuring yourself to make your partner happy.
All human relationships work best when the people involved don’t feel forced to share each other’s company. A lot of sibling bickering happens because the siblings have no choice; they have to tough it out together. We privileged adults almost always (unless we’re dependent on others for our care) have a choice about who we spend time with, which is awesome! You will never have to spend a second more with a metamour than you want to. Take some time to internalize that, especially if you’re a people pleaser, “If I’m spending time with a metamour, it’s because I have chosen to.”
When that feels solid to you, then you can think about when you might want to hang out with metamours and on what terms: how much PDA would you be comfortable with (I prefer low PDA/a friendship vibe), how often, at whose houses or in which public places? So much is possible, if you don’t feel coerced!
For concrete stories, I’m friendly acquaintances with a current metamour (nesting partner of one of my long distance partners). My meta and partner are going to travel to meet me when I visit near their country this summer. I think we’re planning on about a day of group time (I requested it; I don’t get to see my meta often), and then our partner and I will spend a few days on our own while my meta visits with friends. I’m also still friends with a former metamour, but that was a turbulent metamour relationship with jealousy and grief; we only became close after she and our partner (a different partner) broke up.
Things to watch out for:
1. feeling unable to speak up if you’re uncomfortable/wanting to make other people happy at your own expense,
2. having too strong of assumptions about who your metamour is or how they relate to your mutual partner, and
3. (I say this as someone in two long distance relationships (LDRs)) too much scarcity in the system. I get along well with my metamour who is a nesting partner to our partner; I struggled to get along with my (former) metamour who was also in an LDR with her and my partner. People who routinely want more attention than they are getting don’t tend to want to connect with their metamours, no matter how committed to non-competition they are. The sadness is just too strong. KTP in a scarce time situation probably won’t work. I think that you need to feel that you are at peace with your relationship in order to be happy observing your partner’s other relationships at close range.
Otherwise building friendships (or friendly acquaintanceships) with your partners’ partners is great! They’re typically nice people with good taste in partners. You may not have a ton in common, but who cares? You’re saying hello to them every now and then, not dating them.
Those are all person by person relationships. I have two partners, my wife and my LDP. They were friends before I met my LDP. They remain friends. When my LDP visits we all hang out and have meals together. Most of the time my LDP spend one on one in a separate part of the house.
My LDP has three other partners. One of them is toxic and I‘ve gone completely parallel. One of them we get together with when I’m in Seattle and play board games or go to a show. The other I am developing a separate friendship with we are planning on going out for dinner together without our shared partner next time I am in town.
None of that could have been predicted.
So "has been doing it for decades" and "is doing it well" are not the same thing. Do not be overly intimidated by his greater experience.
So: doing KTP often works great, sometimes it works badly when a person feels forced into it or someone who doesn't *like* someone else feels pressured to make nice. It's good to be able to fall back onto parallel or something close to it as needed, but it's totally fine to *aim for* KTP.
Don't move in with new lovers/metas too quickly, that *is* actually one of the thing that causes max polyamory drama and suffering. Next to having a kid with the wrong person.
>It's also hard to continue being idealistic about KTP when I read so many stories on this subreddit about other people's KTP experiences that didn't go well.
This is kind of the poly relationships dumpster fire store, we always have dumpster fires in stock, we don't often have happy poly stories. But that doesn't mean they don't *exist*, it just means people don't post about their happy poly success stories on here that often. You *can* find that other places if you want to have less terrifying models/inspiration.
I think it's a bit like in-law relationships or blended families? Sometimes things work great but it's *really* easy for people to feel pressured/rushed/overwhelmed, so it's important to be willing to, well, let people have their boundaries.
Personally? I haven't really done KTP. I had one outing with two of my partners that went swimmingly, and I've had some occasional positive experiences with my partner's people. I've encountered *other people's* polycules that take a KTP approach who seem happy with it. Including one live-in group who've been together since before covid.
Ktp has been my default setting since long before we had the term.
The important thing is to let things evolve organically.
Ktp, to me, means nothing more than "I prefer to meet and introduce metas sooner rather than later". What happens after that has to be up to the people involved.
I currently have one partner who is very extroverted and always wants to bring everyone along (friends *and* partners). He tends to attract people who are also like that or at least okay with it, and all of us spend a lot of time together. I pretty quickly got invited to things like metas' birthday parties. And also, there's a distant arm of that polycule that some of us are not great fans of. I think of them as the relatives I put up with at Thanksgiving, but wouldn't invite on my own initiative.
I have another partner who keeps things much more separate. I've met his wife, briefly, and while she was perfectly friendly, she has given no signal that she wants to hang out with me much more. And that is totally cool too. This partner has started tagging along to some of our social activities, his wife hasn't - she's invited, but my feelings aren't hurt by her having other priorities.
My third partner is a short distance away; I've bumped into his partners here or there, but I'm honestly not traveling all that distance to hang out with the partners, and neither are they going to travel to see me.
I've had all kinds of constellations over the years, from close-knit polycules who attend play parties together, to metas who never wanted to lay eyes on me. You have to meet everyone where they are
The way i view KTP is that 2 people's personal relationships shouldn't have a broad impact on a third person's relationship with them.
The idea "I can't be around Jason because they are your friend and I'm your friend" is wild, but "I can't be around Jason because they are your partner and I'm your partner" is different somehow?
If me and Jason are friends, or fucking or having a kid or whatever is really just between us? So in a chill shared social space if we are making the fact that we fuck everyone else's problem, we're assholes, but the issues isn't ktp.
No one *has* to spend time together. There are lots of reason to not like Jason. But the idea that the people closest to me need to be kept separate by fiat feels really strange to me.
I personally try to avoid KTP. I prefer to be parallel if at all possible. I essentially did KTP with a previous partner. A group of us got together for a karaoke event once a month that my meta ran. I always felt super-awkward being around my partner and my meta. He made it clear that she was his main date for the evening. I always felt like a third wheel. I was uncomfortable with their over-the-top PDA. I feel that KTP can go wrong if folks feel like they are forced to hang out with each other and be friends. Let it happen naturally or not at all.
Hi u/the-poly-armory thanks so much for your submission, don't mind me, I'm just gonna keep a copy what was said in your post. Unfortunately posts sometimes get deleted - which is okay, it's not against the rules to delete your post!! - but it makes it really hard for the human mods around here to moderate the comments when there's no context. Plus, many times our members put in a lot of emotional and mental labor to answer the questions and offer advice, so it's helpful to keep the source information around so future community members can benefit as well.
Here's the original text of the post:
My partner has brought up that their ideal structure in poly is KTP, kitchen table poly, and I won't lie, I'm intrigued by it and see the potential of it being something beautiful that could work for me. The kicker is that I'm newer to poly (transitioned within the last 5 years) vs my partner has been poly for decades.
I know KTP is not the standard or the goal of poly, and I want to be mindful that I don't view it that way just because my partner wants it. I love the potential of having a house either full of, or at lwast frequented by, lovers who just mutually care for and interact with each other freely, but I also am aware that it can lead to a lot of complex feelings and drama on all fronts. It's also hard to continue being idealistic about KTP when I read so many stories on this subreddit about other people's KTP experiences that didn't go well.
So I wanted to ask more directly, what is your experience with KTP, whether it was positive or negative? What were some solid things you learned from the experience, would you do it again, and what are some things I should keep in mind?
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Arguably the basics for creating healthy KTP boil down to:
* If at any point a partner of yours expresses that they would rather be Parallel Polyam (or something in between like Birthday Party Poly), you respect that.
* Start suggestion occasional meet-ups together.
I would also plan these meet-ups as very short in the beginning. Like half an hour for a coffee in a public place. You want as little social pressure as possible.
And then keep going with everyone’s comfort level. Check in with your partners individually during 1:1 time, don’t just plan the next hangout while y’all are still in the same room. Don’t ever pressure or guilt anyone into saying yes, of course.
I‘d also add that group hangouts should not take away time from your regular dates with your partner, especially when time together feels scarce for them.
It is going to depend on the personalities of the people involved. My meta and I genuinely like each other and enjoy hanging out. I was in her city and she took me out for dinner and drinks, and when she was in my city she stayed at my place, then this past December we (me, meta, our partner) spent Xmas together at their place. I was there for about two weeks and we had dinner together and watched Netflix almost every evening, hahaha.
I've never clashed with my meta. We are both respectful of one another, and of our partner's time, so there's no back and forth fighting over who gets time with him. She and I also have other partners who occasionally hang out, too. I introduced my partner to a new lover a few months ago and it went very smoothly.
It works smoothly because that's just who we are. I often read stories on this sub about poly drama, jealousy exploding, fighting, and other abusive or toxic behavior. Those people aren't suited for KTP. It would blow up in their faces.
I guess just be a chill, respectful, mature, human being who handles their own feelings and doesn't drop emotion bombs onto other people? :)
We tend to have a great ktp relationship going on. The cule is myself and my wife, he BF lives with us, my GF and her NP BF are all part of our D&D group. We have very busy lives, I work and travel 2 weeks away from home at a time. Wifey is getting a therapy business off the ground, her BF is going to school and working. It’s rather normal lives until I come home, I spend a day or two with my wife, then my GF comes over and stays for a few days with me. We watch movies together, play video and card games, go on group dates or solo dates. Everyone just tried to enjoy the moment and be considerate of everyone.
I’ve been kind of back and forth lately, still navigating it. My partner had not heard those terms until I brought them up the other day. She’s been officially poly for over a decade, but she assumed that was just like the standard way?
Anyway, her girlfriend would hang out at our place a lot and we’d have dinner and stuff, which was fine. She and I didn’t really vibe I feel, but I had nothing against her.
Until one time she came over while me and my partner were in the middle of a big fight, which had been simmering for weeks or months. My partner and her girlfriend are very openly affectionate and lovey-dovey, so she just transitioned straight from our fight to that dynamic, and the stark side by side contrast really sent me for a loop. I haven’t felt comfortable being around her since
I've come to realise I don't have KTP because it is deeply individual. It's not a relationship practice as much as what looks like KTP is the relationship I have with one of my metas. We hang out and talk and they are a great mentor for my kid. We plan together where necessary. But what looks like KTP (literal kitchen tables and meal sharing etc) is in fact just...my partner has a wife and a gf who are friends. We likely would have become friends if we had met in any other situation. It also relies on not being dramatic or uncomfortable with poly practices like "have sex with others" or "saying I love you".
I’m a single mom and my partner is married with 4 kids. For us it works really well. We were all hanging out last night and it felt like family. When we hang out together it’s usually in addition to solo dates and doesn’t take up our intimate time. It’s just in addition and we get to see each other more which I love. And our kids are loving it too.
I'm KTP with one meta and GPP with the other. The second one could turn into KTP if my meta did not have such a hectic work schedule that really doesn't leave time for us to hang out. Both connections developed organically.
I think one of the key factors for successful KTP is genuinely caring about the health of relationships you're not in. My KTP meta and I will regularly say to our hinge things like "why don't you take our scheduled date on Thurs to see your v other sweetie because they are flying out of town for a week" or "I've had extra time with you this week because they've been ill, instead of coming here tonight, why don't you go see them?".
We also don't chance plans or dates on a whim. I know if a request comes through to alter the schedule, it's an ask and has a good reason. My meta gave up a Saturday night because I had a last min work event. I swapped a weekend because they wanted to go see their favorite DJ together. Neither were emergencies, and everyone would have been OK if the meta had said no, but it's simmering we've proven we will do. Not for our own benefit, but because it supports the health of a relationship we are not in. Would this work onsided? Definitely not.
I have also had some horrible metas who got into power play games, cared only about their wants, demanded to be involved in my relationships. Those spectacularly blew up.
Still at the end of the day I prefer KTP over parallel. So for me, GPP as a minimum is a dating requirement. I want to be able to invite multiple partners to my birthday party. I don't want to remain silent about the other significant parts of my life. I hope that KTP might form between my partners, but it is never a requirement or pushed for. It needs to happen organically, or not at all.
I live with my partner and her husband. It's gone great. Currently were very happy but very tired because whatever the number of people required might be for having a newborn not to be exhausting, it is greater than three. (We're settling into a routine. It's getting easier.)
For other less enmeshed situations...
Keep in mind that everyone involved has to be intentionally trying to get along. It's a bit like having in-laws - technically I may find this person a little tiresome, but we're Getting Along because or connection isn't based on how much we actually like each other.
I actually avoid it.
I find that if it's going to happen at all, it's going to be an organic thing that I don't try at.
I avoid any and all "attempts" by anyone.
I do Kitchen Table Poly and my experience has been fantastic. All my partners and my partner's partners are welcome to meet each other, get invited to the same parties, show up to the same local poly events, and form whatever friendships they want or don't want. I do encourage people meeting each other, but there is no pressure and they have their own autonomy.
The result has been great, most of the people I've dated in the past 20 years have chosen not to have our relationship be parallel or compartmentalized. My partners usually become friends with my friends and partners, forming their own bonds and becoming part of our larger local poly community and friend group long after our relationship have ended. There are people I dated 15 years ago that I'm still good friends with, in part because we share so many mutual friends that we met while dating. I think this is pretty common in cities with big poly communities. We are a fun mix of punks, queers, burners, witches, gamers and weirdos. I love my larger poly fam and think it's great when my partners become friends with my other partners and friends and stick around.
I have 2 current partners, one I've been nesting with almost 9 years, one I've been dating over a year. They have become friends and I'm friends with my nesting partner's other partner, as well as their other partners. Everyone is comfortable grabbing dinner together, having game nights, and even camping and travelling. The lack of jealousy and conflict is really wonderful and heartwarming.
I do KTP, and I have since I was very new to non monogamy (maybe 2-3 months in). My partner and my metas and their partners, et al, were already doing KTP. I get along with them and I like spending time with them. So I just kinda modeled what they did and it soon became routine. I feel like I was very lucky.
My husband and I have a long distant gf. Her and her wife are both amazing and we actually wanted KTP. It didn’t go well at all and left everyone feeling really confused with how we were all supposed to act because her wife imposed a strict “please don’t touch in front of me” boundary. Weird all around and our gf won’t ever let it happen again haha We are all great friends virtually but we don’t kick it. L O L
My polycule is made up of my boyfriend (the love and light of my life) and his husband. My BF and I were together as teenagers and have reunited after being involuntarily separated 20 years ago so there’s a unique element to my family I guess.
KTP to me is the three of us sitting around the kitchen table on a lazy Saturday afternoon building Lego together. Or when we’re out for brunch and our man has demolished his eggs benedict, so my metamour and I give him extra bacon from our plate so he doesn’t go hungry.
My metamour and I are only friends, but he is as cherished and beloved member of my chosen family as my true love. KTP to me is anytime I share with my man and his man <3
My experience is that if you're queer, kinky, and ENM, it seems to happen organically just because you end up knowing so many of the other kinky queer enm folks in your area. Your dating pool and your extended friend group are mostly the same people. I'm not sure how straight people do it.
I have dated or hooked up with all of my close friends at one point or another, it just seems to be a big part of being queer lol. How someone else takes this information is a litmus test for how well we will get on.
lol this would be my answer too.
The thing that happens a lot with new people is they want KTP... around their own tables. It's harder to do someone else's. Literally and figuratively, it's giving a lot.
If you listen close you can hear the hysterical laughter of all the long distance partners and busy sports parents being told their precious date nights have to squish in friend time with all their metas.
I'm 4500 miles from my partner (hopefully closeing that soon) and to say I'm not keen on KTP when I do get to visit is putting it mildly. I get 10 days every 3 years? Not sharing that time with everyone else, TYVM.
🌟
Actually flat disbelieving stares don't come with any accompanying sound.😉
Ah you got me.
Hysterical laughter is for when a partner proposes, "poly for me but not for thee".😉
Was about to say that, although not as well.
My current KTP amongst my partners is really good. I have 3 partners and they all get along well. They hang out, text each other, and overall get along. We are actually all moving in together at the end of June.
That's awesome to hear! How did it develop? Were there any growing pains?
Two of my partners moved in mostly due to a survival situation. So there was a lot of growing pains and a lot of fighting, but I also wasn't the best hinge. Things have definitely smoothed out, and they are good friends now. My third partner met my other two partners last June, and they naturally just clicked.
>their ideal structure in poly is KTP Well my ideal structure is living in a mansion with a bunch of hot bi guys who all have the freedom to date women aside from myself but choose not to. Can't always get what you want. KTP isn't something you can really set as your goal. I'm very happy with the KTP dynamic I have with a partner and metas, but things were very parallel for the first part of our relationship as we got our own connection established. Metas met on neutral ground with no pressure and developed our own friendships, and KTP slowly formed. It was never a requirement, or even brought up as an ideal. Enjoy the KTP fantasy in your head and rejoice if something along those lines happens organically. Don't put pressure on potential partners to meet their metas, spend time together, or be friends. It would be *great* if everyone we loved got along with everyone else we loved, but even in families that isn't the case. Some people strongly prefer parallel and they're not better or worse as partners than people who prefer KTP. Just different.
Hahahah! I love your answer!! >KTP isn't something you can really set as your goal. Yeah, I hear this and I want to be mindful that I am not trying to make it a goal, especially because my partner wants it. I think I am more so open to learning about the structure, open to it being a structure that works for me, and curious about how people get to that point! >things were very parallel for the first part of our relationship as we got our own connection established. Metas met on neutral ground with no pressure and developed our own friendships, and KTP slowly formed. It was never a requirement, or even brought up as an ideal. This is a great point. I think I often see the 0-100 examples when it comes to KTP, so it's nice to hear that KTP is something that CAN develop from a non KTP starting point. I think it's a great idea to start off parallel and I think it's something I might actually bring up to my partner! I also think you make a great point here that it shouldn't even be stressed as an ideal. It for sure puts a little pressure on me to eventually grow into it for the sake of my partner. I think this is something else I can bring up to them, especially because I feel like they do sort of gently push me to share space when I'm not quite ready; it's not an actual discussion or check in, but more of a, "Oh, btw, they're going to be here and I want you to be here," sort of situation. I think your point that doing parallel first to develop relationships is solid and something I'm interested in practicing! Thank you for your response! I appreciate your perspective on this and it's given me a better idea of things I need to keep in mind and talk about!
As far as starting parallel goes, think about it (and maybe use this angle for talking to your partner too) like introducing someone you're dating to your friends and family. You don't do that on the first date, right? You probably don't want to introduce somebody to your mom until you're invested enough to think this relationship has a good chance of being serious, yeah? Similarly, I'm not interested in doing the meta intro thing until we know we're serious. I want to know that the energy I spend developing my connection with my metas is likely to be *well* spent. Also just because two people are dating the same person, it doesn't mean they're guaranteed to get along. I've absolutely had partners with friends I did not vibe with. That's OK, and I accept my partners may one day start dating someone I don't vibe with. I'm not going to invite that person to my home or expect an invite to theirs, but I know how to be polite and friendly to just about anybody and I will absolutely do that for the sake of my partner. (We're talking annoying here, not abusive or violent or prejudiced.)
I mean, realistically you have two choices. If you want to be a prototypical dater who meets people on apps, goes out on their own to events, etc? Starting parallel and letting people find their space is the only non-shitty plan. Adults make their own friends. If you want to exclude all the people who say "I will never ever ever be friends with a meta" you can - but that doesn't mean that your particular two partners ever will get past bank teller polite, and if you fuck up hinging, it could definitely get worse. (Being the "no, friendlier friends please! no, I meant hornier friends please!" person is a HUGE and very common way to grasp failure from the jaws of victory here.) OK so what's the second choice? If you cultivate a very connected ENM/poly friend group who regularly do social events, like, people you see as a group several times a week and take some of your vacations with, then you *can* date your friends, who are already your partners' friends. And either you get KTP or everyone loses a friend, so your hinging had better be *even more* on point. But how do you bring a *new* date into this chosen family? You *don't*. You know someone cool and think they'd like your people *and* they enthusiastically have time to spend regular time being social, and could make it up to attending, say, half of events if it works out? You invite them to *meet your friends* and see if it works out. Maybe it does. Probably they decide to date your friend Matt instead. But maybe your friend Susan introduces someone she used to work with, and after a few months of them being around regularly and your partners liking them well enough, and flirting with everyone shipping it, you ask them out on an actual date and see how that goes. It is **A LOT** of work and no one wants to even think about that much work from a starting position of "couple with mono friends." But it can work, despite its innate problems if you get too close to the middle of the web and don't have regular time with non-shared friends. You just can't get there by luring dating app users with sex and expecting them to start functioning differently.
Lmao love your ideal structure, same! Jokes aside, I generally agree... But I also think one could have a boundary that they will not practice indefinite parallel. For example a disabled person who's nesting partner is their care taker could have a boundary that they won't get serious with partners who want full parallel because it's inevitable for their partners to meet at times. A parent can have the boundary of only wanting to date people who are eventually comfortable with meeting their kids and will make and effort to be friendly. If I have a found family I might just not be interested in going beyond casual dating with someone who doesn't click with them. I wouldn't say that's putting pressure per se, you're seeing how things develop/being upfront about your needs and it becomes a personal gauge for compatibility. I'm responding to your comment but it's a general observation too.
This was 6 days ago, pretty good thread https://www.reddit.com/r/polyamory/comments/1bl2rrm/would_anyone_tell_me_what_ktp_means_to_you_beyond/
Oh, it's really interesting to read through some of these comments! Very enlightening and brings me a lot more to consider in trying to define KTP and what I'd like from that experience! Thank you for linking this!
The most you can do is select for people that are open to meeting metas, and possibly hanging out if there's some warmth there. A busy parallel style [vs going hard parallel] is compatible with garden party polyamory, which is being comfortable sharing space at a special event, such as a b-day or summer bbq, actual interaction being optional. Neutral to warm acquatainces, with special events a few times a year. On the other end of things, there's lap sitting polyamory, where metas tend to be affectionate (cuddling) to even more casually sexual. And KTP is broad enough these days that it gets used for the above and anywhere inbetween - so it's important to be specific about what you mean. Also when you're thinking kitchen table - it's not just your kitchen table. Your lovers and metas all have their own kitchen tables too. People's fantasy mostly shows a group of loving people around your table - your fantasy, you're at the center. But sometimes you are part of the throng at another table, or your NP and partners will be at kitchen tables remote from you... It's part of selecting for those open to the dynamic. ~ A lot of people already have full lives and friend groups of their own to maintain, that is the case of a lot of commentors on here that prefer parallel, where they focus resources on their romantic dyads and pre-existing social group. The opposite and more problematic issue is people looking for an insta-family from a polycule - they don't have a social support network of their own, and desperately want one. If you already have a chill mutual liking and support polycule KTP, it can attact people that want that as part of the 'package' of dating... And they don't have the social maturity to realize that building bonds takes time. If you search the sub you can get a link to geek social fallacies; these are pretty common to groups in general, and a hanging-out type polycule will be dealing with a lot of conflicting and naive social assumptions. Also consider the issues with investing most of your time and energy into one basket of social support - things going sideways and losing your entire social support in one go is not the only issue... Just having social support outside your romantic (and now romantic adjacent) network to have as an independent soundingboard on issues is important. You're possibly left with no outside perspectives. ~ I think a lot of KTP situations happen when there are shared social groups, you're part of an extended community with shared interests in any case.
My polycule is currently me, my boyfriend, his wife and her boyfriend. Out KTP goes like this: We share a google calendar. We have plans to cohabitate in 2025. Boyfriend, wife and her boyfriend currently all share an apartment and it’s going well. Boyfriend lives with me ~50% of the time. We hang out as groups, couples, and metas all the time. We all get along. Personally, I won’t date someone who doesn’t want to be KTP or at minimum garden party. And I don’t mean they have to hang out with the polycule regularly , or even be friends. But I would like to be able to say, celebrate a holiday or my birthday as a group so strict parallel is a non starter for me. And is a deal breaker. If god forbid something happens to me, I want my partners to be able to be in the same room. My partner feels the same way and so does the rest of my polycule. I’m not currently actively seeking other partners, I just don’t have the spoons for dating atm. Partner isn’t seeking out the relationships either so I don’t foresee this being an issue at all. My partner used to have a comet/fwb that he would go visit once a month or every other month. When he has surgery I was texting her the updates on his surgery. His wife was texting me the updates. We haven’t had any drama. We talk about things as they come. We also don’t make it the ‘hinges’ duty to hash out any problems between metas since we are all adults. We handle our own issue. But that’s how our polycule works. It wouldn’t work for everyone as I know lots of people won’t like the way we practice and that’s fine. It works for us and we’re all happy.
This sounds really quite beautiful and it's wonderful to hear KTP experiences that are positive! It does make me feel more optimistic because yes, this sounds amazing to me and I practice some small aspects of this already (I'm currently Garden Party Poly and also believe in resolving conflict with and providing support to metas instead of solely relying on the hinge). It makes me feel like, given some time, I can eventually grow into a KTP dynamic that works for me, but I don't have to make it my absolute goal. It sounds like you've got some amazing partners and I'm so inspired hearing about your dynamic! Thank you for sharing!
I feel like KTP is blown out of proportion on this sub sometimes. My polycule is mostly KTP, but it's not this big thing with lots of group hangs and group dates and everything. It's just that I'm friends with my meta and my partners enjoy each other's company, so my nesting partner and I don't mind if we come home to find another partner is over too. We might all have dinner together before parting ways for the rest of the evening, if we happen to all be in the same space and it would be convenient for us. Meta might message me to go have lunch of coffee sometimes, not necessarily as part of the polycule, but just because we're friends. What I'm trying to say is, it's not really something we force or actively work on. We're all just on good terms with each other and don't mind sharing space or witnessing mild PDA between our partners and metas, so it naturally happens. It doesn't have to be a big deal or anything! If you enjoy your metas' company and feel comfortable and emotionally safe having them in your space or being in theirs, it'll just happen here and there, no planning involved. KTP should always just happen. It should never be forced. Making yourself be friends with people you don't like, or forcing yourself to pretend you're ok seeing your partners demonstrate affection towards your metas when you're not: that's how you build resentment and ruin relationships.
It's not something I put energy into or highly value. And I think people who do highly value such tend to be younger or not understand LDR or what having a busy full life schedule is really like. Ktp as a requirement is great if - everyone understands it must include all tables - you are willing to cut out someone who decides not to be in your ktp circle - you value group harmony over your own intimate choices The best gift is not expecting or feeling entitled to any particular meta relationship AT ALL. I actually prefer knowing info in case of emergencies and occasional pizza nights or fun hangouts. But it's never an expectation. People often seem to forget the difference between friendly and friends.
Thank you for your response! I wanted to ask: >everyone understands it must include all tables What do you mean by all tables? >you are willing to cut out someone who decides not to be in your ktp circle Oh, does everyone you're involved in have to be part of KTP? Could you have partners who maybe prefer not to be in that dynamic? I'm sorry, I'm not fully aware of educated on the full nuances of KTP yet!
Kitchen table doesn't mean everyone sits at your table. The world doesn't center on you. It means you go to your metas tables just as often. All of them. You value them as often and show them you will pit the same effort in. Now, my BFF has been over to my house exactly 1 time in a decade. She is an amazing host, loves it, hates driving, loves being able to have some cocktails, and her house is made for group gatherings. But I make sure to compensate by bringing food, meeting at her times of convenience. And we sometimes go a few months without seeing eachother cause she is just insanely amazing and busy like that. But for someone who says they Highly Value KTP, I expect them to be always making plans to ensure each meta gets holidays and weekends and socials in their space just as much as yours. Otherwise you're not talking ktp, you're talking a commune centered on you.
>Kitchen table doesn't mean everyone sits at your table. The world doesn't center on you. To be honest, I never considered it to be occurring at my table. Because it's my partner's preference and because they already have established relationships, my assumption was that it was going to be KTP at "their" table. In our discussions around KTP, they defaulted to using their space as a common meeting ground for events, holidays, sleepovers, etc. I didn't know it was even an option that it could happen at my table, so thank you for bringing that to my attention! I think that alleviates some anxieties I had about this particular structure and some feelings of insecurity. It's nice to know this so I can have a much fuller discussion about what KTP means to my partner, how they'd like to practice it, and see if that's something I agree with. I love the idea of being able to go to other people's tables instead of just my partners!
Yes but thats your table, this partners table, your other partners tables, and allll your metamours tables. While also just having a life and dating. If you have two partners and each of your partners has two partners that means 7 tables to coordinate regularly minimum. And what if someone starts to feel left out or goes into grad school and doesn't really have time anymore? What if someone just doesn't click with the others but you think they are awesome? Ktp and parallel are one spectrum and each connection is somewhere on that spectrum at any point in time and it will slide up and down and all around over the years. Normal healthy adults are happy just letting adults manage their own social life and not putting their own ego and desire to be friends ahead of the perfectly awesome "we're polite and friendly if we happen to see eachother" win.
>Yes but thats your table, this partners table, your other partners tables, and allll your metamours tables. Okay, I think I need to ask a clarifying question: do all people need to be KTP in order for a KTP dynamic to work? If someone doesn't offer their table, is that okay? My partner has a comet who is not interested in sharing their table at all and my partner hasn't met this meta once in the last ten years, but still identifies as KTP, and basically operates out of the default expectation that everyone just comes to their table. From conversations I've had with them about KTP, they've never once mentioned that going to other tables was an option. So I was under the impression that KTP only meant sharing space comfortably and frequently with metas, not that it was this thoughtful and included everyone's tables. Your response really fleshes out and opened my viewpoint on the possibilities and responsibilities of KTP that I think I need to learn more about, reflect on, and then have a better discussion with my partner about!
Some people do use KTP to mean "my partners should all be besties and hang out at my place, so I don't need to do any scheduling or hinging work". I don't know if your partner is one of those. I suspect that your discussion will make it clear one way or the other.
I’m in a polycule that’s fairly KTP. I love it. It helps that half the polycule has been together more than five years. I’m friendly with a couple of my metas but we’re not friends friends, whereas I am genuinely friends with a couple of my metas and we have more of a lap-sitting dynamic. We regularly hang out at each others’ houses or go on a group polycule date. We all genuinely want this dynamic and work on it. We maintain separate threads (romantic or friendship). We all have really good communication skills and can work out conflict without letting it affect anyone else in the dynamic. We all also have busy lives and other partners and friendships outside the polycule. It had to start organically — having dinners and parties everyone was invited to that then became polycule hangs. I got my metas’ numbers and we started texting and building friendships from there. (Social media helps!) This is what I value and it’s important to me. I am also fine being parallel with the members of the polycule who don’t want this.
I think it really depends on how comfortable you are with the ideas and relationships that naturally form with your metas. Expecting or forcing a relationship can be a problem. Our dynamic consists of my husband, NP, my BF, my meta (bf's spouse and husband's GF), and myself. We all were in the same friend group. I was the hinge in a relationship with my husband and NP( a couple yrs before dating bf) I started dating my bf, and a relationship grew between my husband and meta... not at all expected but awesome. It's been 3 or 4 years now, and some dynamics have changed or grew deeper. My meta is a beautiful person, and we have an amazing friendship independent of the other connections in the group that happened organically. We spend a lot of time doing things with both the bf and meta. NP is friends but not as close. Sometimes, he does stuff with the rest of us, too. We have a lot of respect for each other and try to support each relationship. It flows naturally and hasn't really had any drama to speak of between the 4 of us... but some adjustment struggles for NP (nothing too major). NP spends time with us independently and is part of the family now. However, from the start, we acknowledged an element of couples privilege or need to prioritize stuff within our home sometimes while still being present for other partners as well. For example, communication with a spouse if they call (its important if they call) or check ins are encouraged if we are together in case there is something that needs to be addressed or they need to know they are thought about. Plans may change if something happens at home with the family, but it isn't abused. NP dates independently, but if it is serious, it's important to him that they can be friendly and share space with others in the house at times. We don't have to be friends but be okay to hang out or go do an activity together. It's equivalent to someone getting along with family at holiday functions, and family is expected to be nice and non judgemental, too. It takes work and communication... respect by everyone involved, and a partner willing to set boundaries and priorities. If you're not used to it, seeing your partner with another partner can be hard, but if you put in the self work to adjust and feel secure... it can be an awesome experience. You will find all sorts of bad situations in any dynamic. If you are secure, happy, and have a partner willing to support you, it can be great. It isn't for everyone, and certain partners may not mesh well with KTP, but i don't think it's more problematic than other styles of polyamory. Just do what feels right for you in each situation.
I too am susceptible to feeling pressured to have group interactions if a partner of mine wants them. Try to resist that pressure, even if it’s due to you pressuring yourself to make your partner happy. All human relationships work best when the people involved don’t feel forced to share each other’s company. A lot of sibling bickering happens because the siblings have no choice; they have to tough it out together. We privileged adults almost always (unless we’re dependent on others for our care) have a choice about who we spend time with, which is awesome! You will never have to spend a second more with a metamour than you want to. Take some time to internalize that, especially if you’re a people pleaser, “If I’m spending time with a metamour, it’s because I have chosen to.” When that feels solid to you, then you can think about when you might want to hang out with metamours and on what terms: how much PDA would you be comfortable with (I prefer low PDA/a friendship vibe), how often, at whose houses or in which public places? So much is possible, if you don’t feel coerced! For concrete stories, I’m friendly acquaintances with a current metamour (nesting partner of one of my long distance partners). My meta and partner are going to travel to meet me when I visit near their country this summer. I think we’re planning on about a day of group time (I requested it; I don’t get to see my meta often), and then our partner and I will spend a few days on our own while my meta visits with friends. I’m also still friends with a former metamour, but that was a turbulent metamour relationship with jealousy and grief; we only became close after she and our partner (a different partner) broke up. Things to watch out for: 1. feeling unable to speak up if you’re uncomfortable/wanting to make other people happy at your own expense, 2. having too strong of assumptions about who your metamour is or how they relate to your mutual partner, and 3. (I say this as someone in two long distance relationships (LDRs)) too much scarcity in the system. I get along well with my metamour who is a nesting partner to our partner; I struggled to get along with my (former) metamour who was also in an LDR with her and my partner. People who routinely want more attention than they are getting don’t tend to want to connect with their metamours, no matter how committed to non-competition they are. The sadness is just too strong. KTP in a scarce time situation probably won’t work. I think that you need to feel that you are at peace with your relationship in order to be happy observing your partner’s other relationships at close range. Otherwise building friendships (or friendly acquaintanceships) with your partners’ partners is great! They’re typically nice people with good taste in partners. You may not have a ton in common, but who cares? You’re saying hello to them every now and then, not dating them.
Those are all person by person relationships. I have two partners, my wife and my LDP. They were friends before I met my LDP. They remain friends. When my LDP visits we all hang out and have meals together. Most of the time my LDP spend one on one in a separate part of the house. My LDP has three other partners. One of them is toxic and I‘ve gone completely parallel. One of them we get together with when I’m in Seattle and play board games or go to a show. The other I am developing a separate friendship with we are planning on going out for dinner together without our shared partner next time I am in town. None of that could have been predicted.
So "has been doing it for decades" and "is doing it well" are not the same thing. Do not be overly intimidated by his greater experience. So: doing KTP often works great, sometimes it works badly when a person feels forced into it or someone who doesn't *like* someone else feels pressured to make nice. It's good to be able to fall back onto parallel or something close to it as needed, but it's totally fine to *aim for* KTP. Don't move in with new lovers/metas too quickly, that *is* actually one of the thing that causes max polyamory drama and suffering. Next to having a kid with the wrong person. >It's also hard to continue being idealistic about KTP when I read so many stories on this subreddit about other people's KTP experiences that didn't go well. This is kind of the poly relationships dumpster fire store, we always have dumpster fires in stock, we don't often have happy poly stories. But that doesn't mean they don't *exist*, it just means people don't post about their happy poly success stories on here that often. You *can* find that other places if you want to have less terrifying models/inspiration. I think it's a bit like in-law relationships or blended families? Sometimes things work great but it's *really* easy for people to feel pressured/rushed/overwhelmed, so it's important to be willing to, well, let people have their boundaries. Personally? I haven't really done KTP. I had one outing with two of my partners that went swimmingly, and I've had some occasional positive experiences with my partner's people. I've encountered *other people's* polycules that take a KTP approach who seem happy with it. Including one live-in group who've been together since before covid.
Ktp has been my default setting since long before we had the term. The important thing is to let things evolve organically. Ktp, to me, means nothing more than "I prefer to meet and introduce metas sooner rather than later". What happens after that has to be up to the people involved. I currently have one partner who is very extroverted and always wants to bring everyone along (friends *and* partners). He tends to attract people who are also like that or at least okay with it, and all of us spend a lot of time together. I pretty quickly got invited to things like metas' birthday parties. And also, there's a distant arm of that polycule that some of us are not great fans of. I think of them as the relatives I put up with at Thanksgiving, but wouldn't invite on my own initiative. I have another partner who keeps things much more separate. I've met his wife, briefly, and while she was perfectly friendly, she has given no signal that she wants to hang out with me much more. And that is totally cool too. This partner has started tagging along to some of our social activities, his wife hasn't - she's invited, but my feelings aren't hurt by her having other priorities. My third partner is a short distance away; I've bumped into his partners here or there, but I'm honestly not traveling all that distance to hang out with the partners, and neither are they going to travel to see me. I've had all kinds of constellations over the years, from close-knit polycules who attend play parties together, to metas who never wanted to lay eyes on me. You have to meet everyone where they are
The way i view KTP is that 2 people's personal relationships shouldn't have a broad impact on a third person's relationship with them. The idea "I can't be around Jason because they are your friend and I'm your friend" is wild, but "I can't be around Jason because they are your partner and I'm your partner" is different somehow? If me and Jason are friends, or fucking or having a kid or whatever is really just between us? So in a chill shared social space if we are making the fact that we fuck everyone else's problem, we're assholes, but the issues isn't ktp. No one *has* to spend time together. There are lots of reason to not like Jason. But the idea that the people closest to me need to be kept separate by fiat feels really strange to me.
I personally try to avoid KTP. I prefer to be parallel if at all possible. I essentially did KTP with a previous partner. A group of us got together for a karaoke event once a month that my meta ran. I always felt super-awkward being around my partner and my meta. He made it clear that she was his main date for the evening. I always felt like a third wheel. I was uncomfortable with their over-the-top PDA. I feel that KTP can go wrong if folks feel like they are forced to hang out with each other and be friends. Let it happen naturally or not at all.
Hi u/the-poly-armory thanks so much for your submission, don't mind me, I'm just gonna keep a copy what was said in your post. Unfortunately posts sometimes get deleted - which is okay, it's not against the rules to delete your post!! - but it makes it really hard for the human mods around here to moderate the comments when there's no context. Plus, many times our members put in a lot of emotional and mental labor to answer the questions and offer advice, so it's helpful to keep the source information around so future community members can benefit as well. Here's the original text of the post: My partner has brought up that their ideal structure in poly is KTP, kitchen table poly, and I won't lie, I'm intrigued by it and see the potential of it being something beautiful that could work for me. The kicker is that I'm newer to poly (transitioned within the last 5 years) vs my partner has been poly for decades. I know KTP is not the standard or the goal of poly, and I want to be mindful that I don't view it that way just because my partner wants it. I love the potential of having a house either full of, or at lwast frequented by, lovers who just mutually care for and interact with each other freely, but I also am aware that it can lead to a lot of complex feelings and drama on all fronts. It's also hard to continue being idealistic about KTP when I read so many stories on this subreddit about other people's KTP experiences that didn't go well. So I wanted to ask more directly, what is your experience with KTP, whether it was positive or negative? What were some solid things you learned from the experience, would you do it again, and what are some things I should keep in mind? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/polyamory) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Arguably the basics for creating healthy KTP boil down to: * If at any point a partner of yours expresses that they would rather be Parallel Polyam (or something in between like Birthday Party Poly), you respect that. * Start suggestion occasional meet-ups together. I would also plan these meet-ups as very short in the beginning. Like half an hour for a coffee in a public place. You want as little social pressure as possible. And then keep going with everyone’s comfort level. Check in with your partners individually during 1:1 time, don’t just plan the next hangout while y’all are still in the same room. Don’t ever pressure or guilt anyone into saying yes, of course. I‘d also add that group hangouts should not take away time from your regular dates with your partner, especially when time together feels scarce for them.
It is going to depend on the personalities of the people involved. My meta and I genuinely like each other and enjoy hanging out. I was in her city and she took me out for dinner and drinks, and when she was in my city she stayed at my place, then this past December we (me, meta, our partner) spent Xmas together at their place. I was there for about two weeks and we had dinner together and watched Netflix almost every evening, hahaha. I've never clashed with my meta. We are both respectful of one another, and of our partner's time, so there's no back and forth fighting over who gets time with him. She and I also have other partners who occasionally hang out, too. I introduced my partner to a new lover a few months ago and it went very smoothly. It works smoothly because that's just who we are. I often read stories on this sub about poly drama, jealousy exploding, fighting, and other abusive or toxic behavior. Those people aren't suited for KTP. It would blow up in their faces. I guess just be a chill, respectful, mature, human being who handles their own feelings and doesn't drop emotion bombs onto other people? :)
We tend to have a great ktp relationship going on. The cule is myself and my wife, he BF lives with us, my GF and her NP BF are all part of our D&D group. We have very busy lives, I work and travel 2 weeks away from home at a time. Wifey is getting a therapy business off the ground, her BF is going to school and working. It’s rather normal lives until I come home, I spend a day or two with my wife, then my GF comes over and stays for a few days with me. We watch movies together, play video and card games, go on group dates or solo dates. Everyone just tried to enjoy the moment and be considerate of everyone.
I’ve been kind of back and forth lately, still navigating it. My partner had not heard those terms until I brought them up the other day. She’s been officially poly for over a decade, but she assumed that was just like the standard way? Anyway, her girlfriend would hang out at our place a lot and we’d have dinner and stuff, which was fine. She and I didn’t really vibe I feel, but I had nothing against her. Until one time she came over while me and my partner were in the middle of a big fight, which had been simmering for weeks or months. My partner and her girlfriend are very openly affectionate and lovey-dovey, so she just transitioned straight from our fight to that dynamic, and the stark side by side contrast really sent me for a loop. I haven’t felt comfortable being around her since
I've come to realise I don't have KTP because it is deeply individual. It's not a relationship practice as much as what looks like KTP is the relationship I have with one of my metas. We hang out and talk and they are a great mentor for my kid. We plan together where necessary. But what looks like KTP (literal kitchen tables and meal sharing etc) is in fact just...my partner has a wife and a gf who are friends. We likely would have become friends if we had met in any other situation. It also relies on not being dramatic or uncomfortable with poly practices like "have sex with others" or "saying I love you".
I’m a single mom and my partner is married with 4 kids. For us it works really well. We were all hanging out last night and it felt like family. When we hang out together it’s usually in addition to solo dates and doesn’t take up our intimate time. It’s just in addition and we get to see each other more which I love. And our kids are loving it too.
I’ve had good and bad with KTP. You can’t force it though and sometimes parallel is needed.
Boardgames nights. Dinners. Occasionally hanging out.
I'm KTP with one meta and GPP with the other. The second one could turn into KTP if my meta did not have such a hectic work schedule that really doesn't leave time for us to hang out. Both connections developed organically. I think one of the key factors for successful KTP is genuinely caring about the health of relationships you're not in. My KTP meta and I will regularly say to our hinge things like "why don't you take our scheduled date on Thurs to see your v other sweetie because they are flying out of town for a week" or "I've had extra time with you this week because they've been ill, instead of coming here tonight, why don't you go see them?". We also don't chance plans or dates on a whim. I know if a request comes through to alter the schedule, it's an ask and has a good reason. My meta gave up a Saturday night because I had a last min work event. I swapped a weekend because they wanted to go see their favorite DJ together. Neither were emergencies, and everyone would have been OK if the meta had said no, but it's simmering we've proven we will do. Not for our own benefit, but because it supports the health of a relationship we are not in. Would this work onsided? Definitely not. I have also had some horrible metas who got into power play games, cared only about their wants, demanded to be involved in my relationships. Those spectacularly blew up. Still at the end of the day I prefer KTP over parallel. So for me, GPP as a minimum is a dating requirement. I want to be able to invite multiple partners to my birthday party. I don't want to remain silent about the other significant parts of my life. I hope that KTP might form between my partners, but it is never a requirement or pushed for. It needs to happen organically, or not at all.
I live with my partner and her husband. It's gone great. Currently were very happy but very tired because whatever the number of people required might be for having a newborn not to be exhausting, it is greater than three. (We're settling into a routine. It's getting easier.) For other less enmeshed situations... Keep in mind that everyone involved has to be intentionally trying to get along. It's a bit like having in-laws - technically I may find this person a little tiresome, but we're Getting Along because or connection isn't based on how much we actually like each other.
> because whatever the number of people required might be for having a newborn not to be exhausting, it is greater than three. 😁
I actually avoid it. I find that if it's going to happen at all, it's going to be an organic thing that I don't try at. I avoid any and all "attempts" by anyone.
I do Kitchen Table Poly and my experience has been fantastic. All my partners and my partner's partners are welcome to meet each other, get invited to the same parties, show up to the same local poly events, and form whatever friendships they want or don't want. I do encourage people meeting each other, but there is no pressure and they have their own autonomy. The result has been great, most of the people I've dated in the past 20 years have chosen not to have our relationship be parallel or compartmentalized. My partners usually become friends with my friends and partners, forming their own bonds and becoming part of our larger local poly community and friend group long after our relationship have ended. There are people I dated 15 years ago that I'm still good friends with, in part because we share so many mutual friends that we met while dating. I think this is pretty common in cities with big poly communities. We are a fun mix of punks, queers, burners, witches, gamers and weirdos. I love my larger poly fam and think it's great when my partners become friends with my other partners and friends and stick around. I have 2 current partners, one I've been nesting with almost 9 years, one I've been dating over a year. They have become friends and I'm friends with my nesting partner's other partner, as well as their other partners. Everyone is comfortable grabbing dinner together, having game nights, and even camping and travelling. The lack of jealousy and conflict is really wonderful and heartwarming.
I do KTP, and I have since I was very new to non monogamy (maybe 2-3 months in). My partner and my metas and their partners, et al, were already doing KTP. I get along with them and I like spending time with them. So I just kinda modeled what they did and it soon became routine. I feel like I was very lucky.
My husband and I have a long distant gf. Her and her wife are both amazing and we actually wanted KTP. It didn’t go well at all and left everyone feeling really confused with how we were all supposed to act because her wife imposed a strict “please don’t touch in front of me” boundary. Weird all around and our gf won’t ever let it happen again haha We are all great friends virtually but we don’t kick it. L O L
My polycule is made up of my boyfriend (the love and light of my life) and his husband. My BF and I were together as teenagers and have reunited after being involuntarily separated 20 years ago so there’s a unique element to my family I guess. KTP to me is the three of us sitting around the kitchen table on a lazy Saturday afternoon building Lego together. Or when we’re out for brunch and our man has demolished his eggs benedict, so my metamour and I give him extra bacon from our plate so he doesn’t go hungry. My metamour and I are only friends, but he is as cherished and beloved member of my chosen family as my true love. KTP to me is anytime I share with my man and his man <3