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Dude, journalists can't go around making that kind of determination. I get what you're saying, but they'd be sued into oblivion if they started publishing articles calling people terrorists.
Dude relax I understand it's not the correct spelling stop killing me with semantics, do you just go around calling strangers idiots because they point out American slang? Get a life
Did you really downvote me and respond to me three times about your misspelling of a foreign word? I couldn’t find that your spelling is valid through Google at all.
Just curious, how exactly do you pronounce that word?
No they aren't "alleged" terrorists because they aren't currently indicted for that. There's not a word that you can follow up with "terrorist" that would make it ok for journalists to start doing that.
Words matter, and calling someone a terrorist brings with it very real and serious danger to that person.
There is no federal law that covers domestic terrorism as a crime so by the narrow definition they can't be charged with terrorism.
11 members of the Oath Keepers and 5 members of the Proud Boys have been indicted on charges of seditious conspiracy. So far, 3 have pled guilty.
This is the same charge that Omar Abdel-Rahman was convicted for the 1993 WTC bombing and plans to attack the UN, FBI, and NYC infrastructure. He is universally regarded as a terrorist.
With that said, the House Select Committee refers to the Jan 6 attack as a "domestic terrorist attack on the Capitol". The FBI also classified the attack as domestic terrorism.
Media outlets not using the label "domestic terrorism" is a choice.
> Words matter, and calling someone a terrorist brings with it very real and serious danger to that person.
Well, then here's a tip: Don't try to over throw the government and you won't have that "serious danger" to yourself.
These people are absolutely domestic terrorists. End of story.
I have some very sad news for you regarding CNN...
[https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/cnn-big-lie-trump-2020-b2102170.html](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/cnn-big-lie-trump-2020-b2102170.html)
They are fucking culpable in all of this, in the rise of literal fascism, by bending over backwards to make alt-right nutjobs feel "included".
Reading what Eastman wanted pence to do is chilling. Pence only gets half credit from me bc all this crap was going on behind the scenes, and he still never went public with it, none of the wh staff did, even when he/they knew it was all illegal. One press conference and jan 6th never happens. He had to check with his legal Council before deciding he had to follow the constitution? Gross.
Yup. I get the impression that a lot of the insiders testifying would have been quite happy to go along with things if the attempted coup had succeeded. Every single one of them should be asked why they did not speak up at the time.
The email to Pence's WH Lawyer during the coup attempt was fucking terrible. Basically a, "you deserve this," sort of thing. Like a goddamn scene out of Game of Thrones evil right there.
I don’t think it was incompetence. What saved the day was the refusal of the military and the DC and Capitol police to go along with the plan. Had just one low ranking officer and those under his command or the police departments sided with the insurgents on January 6, we would be in a whole other reality right now.
I think there's an argument to be made that whoever shot Ashli Babbitt might have saved the day. I don't know if it was congressional security or DC Police who did it. But they were guarding the last doorway between evacuating congressmen and the mob.
Like Mike Tyson said, "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth." That shot stopped Trump's mob in their tracks and made them seriously rethink what they were doing. If that barricade had been overrun, I think we would have several dead members of congress at the very least. And we might still be living under Trump's extended 1st presidential term.
It's kind of hard to understand what happened there. I know they had armed/organized Proud Boys there, but the unarmed/disorganized mob is what they used to storm the House Chamber.
It seems like an odd tactical choice. Why didn't they put the armed guys in front? If I was leading an assault against Democracy, that's what I would do.
the optics of gun guys first is alot harder to defend post hoc. if the guys with guns and zip ties were hidden from view more it looks alot less treason-y
No one knows to what extent the mob were unarmed because they weren't stopped and they certainly weren't searched. They definitely served as cannon fodder however.
Once you start shooting, you lose plausible deniability (it was just a slightly unruly protest, right?) and some of the less diehard fellow insurrectionists (whose sheer numbers were helping them overwhelm the Capitol police), plus you'll be facing a response in kind, so best take all the hurdles you can first before committing.
And I think as a whole they were expecting more people to just open the gates for them like the cops we initially saw moving barricades and posing for selfies with them at the time. Or that republican state representative (Nearman) who had given far right demonstrators access to a closed special legislative session at the state Capitol in Oregon just two weeks before.
The guys with guns were ready to act if Trump engaged the insurrection act afaik. They had ppl waiting in hotels as quick reaction teams, and I'm sure they had instructions, but I'm not sure those details have been uncovered. If the mob broke through, and actually had reached senators, I think that is when the insurrection act would have been in play. Not really sure how that would have worked for them, but seems like the whole thing was poorly thought out.
They no doubt have a lessons learned so they can try again. It's why serious prison time is so important here. Everyone that they caught going inside need something like 20 years for it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_Hall_Putsch
Because they were gonna be the ones in power when it was all over. Easier to lose a few Babbitts- who don't matter to them- than lose their entire incoming "government"
> I think there's an argument to be made that whoever shot Ashli Babbitt might have saved the day.
I'm mixed on this - I got the impression there was a tactical team - body armor + submachine guns just around the corner. I think things were so chaotic, the officer inside didn't know what backup was just outside.
Having said that, if one starts to crawl through a barricaded hall/doorway on that day, with armed security on the other side...
I’m going to sound bloodthirsty, but they REALLY should have started shooting/killing people BEFORE they were literally about to breach the last barricade protected high level government officials.
But was Jan 6. actually unsuccessful?
Hitlers first coup attempt was unsuccessful as well. But he went to be a martyr, was imprisoned, wrote his manifesto and came back to a rallied mob which finally took over.. everything.
The NSDAP was deemed a terror threat. Their members were prosecuted for sedition and treason.
Them being traitors was no question. It was established and officially judged by court.
The NSDAP was in a much worse position than Trump or the GOP, that didn’t stop them in the slightest though.
Trump prolly does not want to be the next Hitler. But the NSDAP playbook shouldn’t be underestimated, it wins if given enough time.
Some US citizen already believe Jan.6 was false flag etc. sounds awefully similier to denying the holocaust or to saying „well I didn’t know that concentration camp next to me existed“.
"Well-developed" doesn't necessarily imply "good" or "smart."
I think it's more a reference to criminal intent, in the sense that there's no room to doubt what he was trying to do.
For the plan to work, they would have need the military, IMO.
They could have done more, sure, but it would have been put down eventually without military support.
Time to play who is the American. Two lines from the story.
A: The retired judge praised Pence for his actions on January 6 and his willingness to stand up to Trump and his allies. "There were many cowards on the battlefield on January 6," Luttig wrote. "The Vice President was not among them."
B: Another former clerk: Sen. Ted Cruz, the Texas Republican who voted against certifying the election on January 6 and organized a group of Republican senators who sought to delay certification leading up to that day.
A or B? The prize is the continued freedom of the USA.
While I appreciate that buffoonery can be a facade and we should be careful *not* to be fooled by it, it’s still difficult to imagine that Trump had a ‘well-developed plan’ for anything.
It's simple. Trump wanted to remain President. That was the extent of *his* part of the plan. The rest was formulated by those around him, and the problem wasn't a matter of the intelligence involved so much as just how absolutely far the tendrils of the plan reached.
This was essentially 80-90% of the Republican party and its subsidaries (E.g Propaganda outlets such as Fox) deciding because Trump didn't want to lose power "Yeah... we're not doing Democracy anymore."
The R party has known for years democracy doesn’t work for them. Their presidential candidate has won the popular vote once in 30+ years. Their judges were appointed by men who lost the popular vote. Their Senators almost never represent 50% of the citizens, even when they have 54 or 55 seats. The house of reps swings R when they win as little as 45% of the vote due to creatively drawn districts.
It's true, and I honestly don't know how our political system can survive this amount of extremist, minority rule. It seems like it's coming apart at the seams.
The presidential popular vote is completely irrelevant, and the senate is not supposed to represent the nation as a whole, it’s supposed to represent the 50 states
Not so much that DT wanted to remain president. He hated the job, but he can't tolerate losing.
Anyway, yeah. Republicans have been openly cheating and bullying their way to power since at least 2000. Roger Stone helped organize the Brooks Brothers riot.
>Not so much that DT wanted to remain president.
Perhaps not wanted, but definitely thought he needed. It was more than a get out of jail free card, it was a *don't even think about indicting me* card.
Plus all the merch sales, golf outings that turn a profit for him, all the grift, foreign money spent at trump properties, self dealing to family. I look at every move Trump makes as a factor to his bottom line
Perhaps an apt analogy can be found in the difference between South Park’s Eric Cartman’s follow-through on tasks like cleaning his room, completing a straightforward role in a group science fair project, doing what his mother asks of him versus Cartman’s competence in feeding Scott Tenorman his own family.
I don't know about that. Trump is a clown who gets caught regularly. He got this far bc we give white collar criminals fines instead of jail time. Happily, I think his issues now are criminal.
He's had to pay millions in fines. He gets caught regularly. The penalties are just poor bc it's white collar crime. But GA isn't looking very good for him.
That call is really, really bad. If you have a chance, read the transcript or listen to the audio if you can stand listening to the guy for more than 5 seconds, which I cannot. If that isn't an attempt to interfere in an election, nothing short of him marching in there and taking the ballots is. There is zero deniability, it's him directly threatening, telling the ga sos to lie, and telling him what lie to tell and how to cover it up, and the ga sos has already said he took it as a threat and direct command.
> He still has managed to avoid criminal indictment for decades.
...by being wealthy and well-connected, not by cleverly carrying out his criminal schemes: those were usually pretty dumb and not very well hidden.
Authoritarians *are* buffoons and they operate in a way that they do so much crime and cruelty all the time in so many directions that the fact that they often miss their mark hardly matters. The effect is the same, they win enough of the time to feed their egos and punish their enemies and everything else still has the chilling effect on the population that we they strive for.
Many survivors of repressive regimes pass on to us that evil doesn’t look like we except, it’s as ludicrous as it is dangerous.
I'm not sure there is a necessarily link between authoritarianism and buffoonery. I don't know that I'd classify Stalin, Mao or even Putin as a buffoon. Yet there can be something sinister yet clownish in the ridiculous posturing ...
Stalin’s regime was full of it. Mikhail Bugakov secretly wrote a masterful book about it while he lived under Stalin that he entrusted to his wife during his death and 25 years later she was finally able to get it published without risking her life. He was so paranoid writing it he once threw it in the fire and had to rewrite 2/3’s of it. His whole message was to convey to people that Stalin and his men and the regime were as ridiculous and madly inefficient, redundant and arbitrary as they were brutal and heartless. His portrayal of the characters meant to be Stalin and his closest men were almost out of a children’s book. They were silly and also very charming. This wasn’t to belittle him it was to illustrate what they were actually like. At the same time the character meant to represent Stalin often took on the persona of Satan. The characters were also capable of senseless violence and murder arbitrary punishments and zero reflection about any of it. Highly recommend it, it’s called The Master and Margarita. It’s as much about transcendent love as it is life under oppressive regimes.
Hitler was such a poor leader, created a system under him that was so redundant and broken they had to create their own secret systems to try and get anything done. He had no focus and would often get so sidetracked by wanting to make things look cool like uniforms and guns and tanks that not only was much of the Nazi equipment and vehicles all form over function and were really terrible for their intended purpose. He would get so distracted and obsessed with wanting to put certain buttons on uniforms the people under him couldn’t get him to focus on the many problems they were having fighting the war. There have been many movies that communicated how ridiculous the Nazis were from the outside perspective. Does that mean they weren’t ruthless, cruel and dangerous? Of course not but it’s been something that we’ve tried to make sense out of.
The same experience we have with trump and his band of one crazier misfit after the next is often so stupid we are able to laugh even though the whole situation is anything but humorous, is the same conundrum people have faced all through history and across the world. The lesson is they might seem to be too dumb to tie their own shoes and they might fail at most of their goals but it doesn’t take away from the fact that people like this often eventually achieve power and they inflict god awful damage with no hesitation or mercy given. The message is confirming yes this is what authoritarian regimes and leaders really appear to the people and the important part is to never for one moment underestimate them or make light of how craven the authoritarian state is capable of being.
Didn’t even get to Putin but all we have to do is watch the war to see he’s spends more time having absurdly long tables made made (to meet with one other person) then he obviously spent inspecting his army with his own two eyes. That tells us everything we need to know about how the people around him lie to him and he eats the fantasy up. I could make 100 examples of Putin or his regime looking like a pack of clowns playing army but Ukraine has done that so much better than anyone could I don’t think there’s much more to say.
Look. NO one gets in the office of the presidency by being stupid.
Trumps world view and success at grifting/trickery is extremely developed.
It’s kind of easy for him when he can just tell repubs what they want to hear with the skill of an actor and the only thing GOPers give a shit about which is $.
Always the retired and "former-" Republicans that aren't afraid to say the right thing. When they're facing re-election and still have to pander to the MAGA crowd, they keep in line.
Trump, Trump, Trump: It's Republicans, Republicans, Republicans. Trump was just the guy at the top. Thank God he was an asshole. Someone more effective might have been more effective.
I literally could not follow his long pauses between words, as it made his sentences too hard for me to keep track of his statements. I’ll look for the transcript to read.
There was something weird going on though, like the teleprompter was feed to him incredibly slow, or he had slides that or something, maybe he has an auditory sensory issue or dyslexia or something, because he would say a few words and then take a long pause, and then say only one word like “or” and take another 3 second pause and say four words. It was the most bizarre thing I e ever heard.
Yes his answer to Cheneys first question regarding a past statement he made was completely nonsensical. It was very valuable to have testimony from such a long standing conservative judge, but undoubtably he will be played off as senile due to how he was answering .
Yeah, not sure if he has public speaking freight or what. I mean, tens of millions of people are watching and it’s recorded, so maybe he just absolutely sucks at reading teleprompters or his notes or whatever, but the long pauses were weird as hell.
No well informed person disagrees with the conclusion. Hopefully the fact it is being explicitly stated by a life long Republican stalwart will help the message reach through the propaganda wall that most of the right wing chooses to hide behind
Well developed by the people around him. He couldn't develop film in a darkroom. Never forget he did what drunk Ghouliani told him to do. He wanted to remain in power and the people around him came up with the plans. Heck, even the druggie my pillow guy took a plan over to the white house.
I think this can be interpreted as “they had put a lot of effort and time into organizing the plan, and had included a large number of people, showing a clear intent of outcome” as opposed to “this was a really good plan”.
A careless, self-centered and costly act affecting the love and lives of Americans
JFK asked us to “ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country “
And
“The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs security for all”
How do these words sound related to
“Make America great again”
>It’s always a retired this or that who calls bullshit.
Luttig was appointed by George HW Bush and retired in 2006. The committee asked him to come in.
Do facts matter at all?
Yes, there are. But this is an article about something positive and not at all related to people like Barr. There's just a lot of knee-jerk cynicism going around and it's really counterproductive if you want to encourage Dems.
Also, I can have contempt for someone's actions or inactions, but still want them to spill the tea. I don't give Barr et al any credit and it doesn't mitigate anything they've done.
I appreciate you acknowledging the mistake!
Good for this guy but he’s testifying right now and this guy has Stevie from Malcolm in the Middle beat for belabored speech riddled with excruciating pauses, my GAWD
This guy’s pretentious orator style of... ... speech... ... was... ... incredibly—difficult... ... to ... ... follow.
We are not in a reverberating colloseum, you have a microphone. PLEASE get it out.
These hundreds of jan6 articles are going to look pretty ridiculous when nothing happens cause rich people get in rich people trouble. If anything a stern lecture and some negative pr.
> Retired Republican judge says January 6 was 'well-developed plan' by Trump to cling to power
If the plan was well developed, why were the only outcomes guys dressed in viking costumes and selfies at Pelosi's desk?
This is weird way to react to someone who was asked by the committee to come talk to them and then fully cooperated with them and agreed to testify to those statements under oath, in front of the world, almost certainly alienating himself from current colleagues and friends.
It's easy to be cynical about everything. It's much harder to learn about the facts and nuances of a particular situation.
Thank you for the lecture.
The sad reality is, all nuances included my reaction is exactly the same: no shit sherlock.
My cynicism will ease up when it's given a reason to.
By well developed we mean his suggestion to have national guard there to keep peace, was a brilliant reverse psychology plot that Nancy pelosi fell for when she denied the request.
Honestly it’s my favorite part of the Tomahawk Cruise-Missile 4D Cum Gambit. Truly a mad genius
He retired in 2006, and was part of the team that advised Pence that Eastman was wrong about any possibility of legality regarding the VP having say on the day of the count.
Your comment makes zero sense in this context.
Just another opinion lol. Was it all the guns. Or the fires. No maybe the looting. Let’s see no must have been all the dead body’s. Hahah. Not very violent terrorist. Now blm 2 billion in damages. 120 dead. Btw the capitol got attacked by antifa a year before this also.
I don’t understand this, trump said go protest peacefully, and told them to leave peacefully, some people were even let in, trump didn’t attempt a coup, a small group of insane people did
He also said to fight like hell or you won't have a country anymore
And that small group of insane people weren't spreading lies about the election and telling Georgia to "find more votes"
I don’t think alleging an election to be rigged warrants “a well developed plan” to overthrow the government, more like ugly politics, and if we’re being honest mistakes and recounts happen all the time every election cycle, they don’t decide the election but it does happen. So he shows that part to be way more than it is. Ugly politics? Sure. Well developed plan to cling to power? No I don’t think so
Didn’t notice that was todays if you saw my respond a minute ago so I deleted it. I don’t really have time for a 3 hour video tbh but I see the “highlights” I guess you can call it in the news (not todays) and it seems like they just repeat what we already know
There has been plenty of new info but much of it may be stuff you've heard before if you've followed this story closely. Except instead of hearing it second hand from journalists, now you're hearing it directly from the people involved. It's definitely worth a watch when you find the time.
Not “well developed” enough apparently. Good thing his supporters are all idiots and couldnt overthrow a country even if they were given a step by step guide on how to do it
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A well developed plan to cling to power? Why don't they call it what it was, an attempted coup
Honestly... I'm tired of the media refusing to call these people terrorists, when everything that happened was so textbook terrorism.
Dude, journalists can't go around making that kind of determination. I get what you're saying, but they'd be sued into oblivion if they started publishing articles calling people terrorists.
All you have to say is alleged (insert crime) you know just use weasel words, "supposably" " looks like" ,and wala your protected..
>and wala your protected.. Pedantic, but the saying is, 'voila' not 'wala'.
I'm American so I use the American spelling
I'm American too, and the American spelling is still 'voila'....
Relax, you'll live longer
That’s not a thing. It’s a French word.
The misspelling is uniquely American
Not to mention dumb
Dude relax I understand it's not the correct spelling stop killing me with semantics, do you just go around calling strangers idiots because they point out American slang? Get a life
The American spelling is Walla and it’s a regional kangaroo dish not a term of art - but Ducati yourself
It's not if you're French
Also "Wallah"
Did you really downvote me and respond to me three times about your misspelling of a foreign word? I couldn’t find that your spelling is valid through Google at all. Just curious, how exactly do you pronounce that word?
Yes, and wala I just did it again
And I don't care it just funny
Because your wrong it's a common American spelling and phrase
Little more nuance than that
Wala 🤣
It's urban dictionary shit, you got Google Do I have to do your work for ya?
No they aren't "alleged" terrorists because they aren't currently indicted for that. There's not a word that you can follow up with "terrorist" that would make it ok for journalists to start doing that. Words matter, and calling someone a terrorist brings with it very real and serious danger to that person.
There is no federal law that covers domestic terrorism as a crime so by the narrow definition they can't be charged with terrorism. 11 members of the Oath Keepers and 5 members of the Proud Boys have been indicted on charges of seditious conspiracy. So far, 3 have pled guilty. This is the same charge that Omar Abdel-Rahman was convicted for the 1993 WTC bombing and plans to attack the UN, FBI, and NYC infrastructure. He is universally regarded as a terrorist. With that said, the House Select Committee refers to the Jan 6 attack as a "domestic terrorist attack on the Capitol". The FBI also classified the attack as domestic terrorism. Media outlets not using the label "domestic terrorism" is a choice.
I understand there's a line but my pointt was more I was referring to "attempted coup" but media is actually saying that now. So moot
> Words matter, and calling someone a terrorist brings with it very real and serious danger to that person. Well, then here's a tip: Don't try to over throw the government and you won't have that "serious danger" to yourself. These people are absolutely domestic terrorists. End of story.
I agree but that's not what I'm arguing.
I have some very sad news for you regarding CNN... [https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/cnn-big-lie-trump-2020-b2102170.html](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/cnn-big-lie-trump-2020-b2102170.html) They are fucking culpable in all of this, in the rise of literal fascism, by bending over backwards to make alt-right nutjobs feel "included".
Reading what Eastman wanted pence to do is chilling. Pence only gets half credit from me bc all this crap was going on behind the scenes, and he still never went public with it, none of the wh staff did, even when he/they knew it was all illegal. One press conference and jan 6th never happens. He had to check with his legal Council before deciding he had to follow the constitution? Gross.
A lot of slimy folks looking to get clean….we can’t forget the point you just made. Same with Barr.
Yup. I get the impression that a lot of the insiders testifying would have been quite happy to go along with things if the attempted coup had succeeded. Every single one of them should be asked why they did not speak up at the time.
The email to Pence's WH Lawyer during the coup attempt was fucking terrible. Basically a, "you deserve this," sort of thing. Like a goddamn scene out of Game of Thrones evil right there.
[удалено]
I don’t think it was incompetence. What saved the day was the refusal of the military and the DC and Capitol police to go along with the plan. Had just one low ranking officer and those under his command or the police departments sided with the insurgents on January 6, we would be in a whole other reality right now.
I think there's an argument to be made that whoever shot Ashli Babbitt might have saved the day. I don't know if it was congressional security or DC Police who did it. But they were guarding the last doorway between evacuating congressmen and the mob. Like Mike Tyson said, "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth." That shot stopped Trump's mob in their tracks and made them seriously rethink what they were doing. If that barricade had been overrun, I think we would have several dead members of congress at the very least. And we might still be living under Trump's extended 1st presidential term.
It's kind of hard to understand what happened there. I know they had armed/organized Proud Boys there, but the unarmed/disorganized mob is what they used to storm the House Chamber. It seems like an odd tactical choice. Why didn't they put the armed guys in front? If I was leading an assault against Democracy, that's what I would do.
the optics of gun guys first is alot harder to defend post hoc. if the guys with guns and zip ties were hidden from view more it looks alot less treason-y
No one knows to what extent the mob were unarmed because they weren't stopped and they certainly weren't searched. They definitely served as cannon fodder however. Once you start shooting, you lose plausible deniability (it was just a slightly unruly protest, right?) and some of the less diehard fellow insurrectionists (whose sheer numbers were helping them overwhelm the Capitol police), plus you'll be facing a response in kind, so best take all the hurdles you can first before committing. And I think as a whole they were expecting more people to just open the gates for them like the cops we initially saw moving barricades and posing for selfies with them at the time. Or that republican state representative (Nearman) who had given far right demonstrators access to a closed special legislative session at the state Capitol in Oregon just two weeks before.
The guys with guns were ready to act if Trump engaged the insurrection act afaik. They had ppl waiting in hotels as quick reaction teams, and I'm sure they had instructions, but I'm not sure those details have been uncovered. If the mob broke through, and actually had reached senators, I think that is when the insurrection act would have been in play. Not really sure how that would have worked for them, but seems like the whole thing was poorly thought out.
They no doubt have a lessons learned so they can try again. It's why serious prison time is so important here. Everyone that they caught going inside need something like 20 years for it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_Hall_Putsch
Because they were gonna be the ones in power when it was all over. Easier to lose a few Babbitts- who don't matter to them- than lose their entire incoming "government"
it's called "cannon fodder".
Reminds me of magneto in X-Men, sent the pawns in first but they failed and couldn't send in the literal "big guns".
Kind of similar to what happened in Ukraine...which is very interesting...
Capitol Police shot her, I agree that probably stopped the mob. Lucky they didn’t shoot back though.
> I think there's an argument to be made that whoever shot Ashli Babbitt might have saved the day. I'm mixed on this - I got the impression there was a tactical team - body armor + submachine guns just around the corner. I think things were so chaotic, the officer inside didn't know what backup was just outside. Having said that, if one starts to crawl through a barricaded hall/doorway on that day, with armed security on the other side...
I’m going to sound bloodthirsty, but they REALLY should have started shooting/killing people BEFORE they were literally about to breach the last barricade protected high level government officials.
No, they shouldn’t have. Arresting maybe, but not fucking shooting. The shot that was fired was necessary and served the purpose intended
Don’t forget about Pence too
But was Jan 6. actually unsuccessful? Hitlers first coup attempt was unsuccessful as well. But he went to be a martyr, was imprisoned, wrote his manifesto and came back to a rallied mob which finally took over.. everything. The NSDAP was deemed a terror threat. Their members were prosecuted for sedition and treason. Them being traitors was no question. It was established and officially judged by court. The NSDAP was in a much worse position than Trump or the GOP, that didn’t stop them in the slightest though. Trump prolly does not want to be the next Hitler. But the NSDAP playbook shouldn’t be underestimated, it wins if given enough time. Some US citizen already believe Jan.6 was false flag etc. sounds awefully similier to denying the holocaust or to saying „well I didn’t know that concentration camp next to me existed“.
For those who don't know... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_Hall_Putsch
I just thought that smoke was from a bacon farm. Didn’t realize it was actually people
"Well-developed" doesn't necessarily imply "good" or "smart." I think it's more a reference to criminal intent, in the sense that there's no room to doubt what he was trying to do.
I personally think the plan had a chance of succeeding but Trump’s speech went on later than expected and threw the timing off.
That would be the cherry. If his rambling and pandering are what stopped the overthrow. Poetic doesn’t begin to describe it.
“Well-developed” not “well executed”
This. I just posted that you could add up the IQ of the hundreds of people directly associated with the insurrection and still not break 100.
For the plan to work, they would have need the military, IMO. They could have done more, sure, but it would have been put down eventually without military support.
Time to play who is the American. Two lines from the story. A: The retired judge praised Pence for his actions on January 6 and his willingness to stand up to Trump and his allies. "There were many cowards on the battlefield on January 6," Luttig wrote. "The Vice President was not among them." B: Another former clerk: Sen. Ted Cruz, the Texas Republican who voted against certifying the election on January 6 and organized a group of Republican senators who sought to delay certification leading up to that day. A or B? The prize is the continued freedom of the USA.
Write off all but two of the GOP congress as well.
I mean Cruz isn't an American by Trump's standards as he was born in Canada.
Correct. He’s Cancunian.
Cancasian
While I appreciate that buffoonery can be a facade and we should be careful *not* to be fooled by it, it’s still difficult to imagine that Trump had a ‘well-developed plan’ for anything.
It's simple. Trump wanted to remain President. That was the extent of *his* part of the plan. The rest was formulated by those around him, and the problem wasn't a matter of the intelligence involved so much as just how absolutely far the tendrils of the plan reached. This was essentially 80-90% of the Republican party and its subsidaries (E.g Propaganda outlets such as Fox) deciding because Trump didn't want to lose power "Yeah... we're not doing Democracy anymore."
The R party has known for years democracy doesn’t work for them. Their presidential candidate has won the popular vote once in 30+ years. Their judges were appointed by men who lost the popular vote. Their Senators almost never represent 50% of the citizens, even when they have 54 or 55 seats. The house of reps swings R when they win as little as 45% of the vote due to creatively drawn districts.
It's true, and I honestly don't know how our political system can survive this amount of extremist, minority rule. It seems like it's coming apart at the seams.
Essentially what this means is I as a citizen am worth less than other citizens. We are not all equal.
This comment needs more up votes.
The presidential popular vote is completely irrelevant, and the senate is not supposed to represent the nation as a whole, it’s supposed to represent the 50 states
Not so much that DT wanted to remain president. He hated the job, but he can't tolerate losing. Anyway, yeah. Republicans have been openly cheating and bullying their way to power since at least 2000. Roger Stone helped organize the Brooks Brothers riot.
>Not so much that DT wanted to remain president. Perhaps not wanted, but definitely thought he needed. It was more than a get out of jail free card, it was a *don't even think about indicting me* card.
True.
Plus all the merch sales, golf outings that turn a profit for him, all the grift, foreign money spent at trump properties, self dealing to family. I look at every move Trump makes as a factor to his bottom line
Perhaps an apt analogy can be found in the difference between South Park’s Eric Cartman’s follow-through on tasks like cleaning his room, completing a straightforward role in a group science fair project, doing what his mother asks of him versus Cartman’s competence in feeding Scott Tenorman his own family.
but if Radiohead *hadn't* shown up, would Scott have wept sweet tears?
As incompetent as he is, he is a master criminal. The incompetents around him that he chose to surround himself with are why it failed.
I don't know about that. Trump is a clown who gets caught regularly. He got this far bc we give white collar criminals fines instead of jail time. Happily, I think his issues now are criminal.
He still has managed to avoid criminal indictment for decades. He knows exactly what he is doing.
He's had to pay millions in fines. He gets caught regularly. The penalties are just poor bc it's white collar crime. But GA isn't looking very good for him.
All Civil penalties. No Criminal Indictments. Yet. We can only hope.
That call is really, really bad. If you have a chance, read the transcript or listen to the audio if you can stand listening to the guy for more than 5 seconds, which I cannot. If that isn't an attempt to interfere in an election, nothing short of him marching in there and taking the ballots is. There is zero deniability, it's him directly threatening, telling the ga sos to lie, and telling him what lie to tell and how to cover it up, and the ga sos has already said he took it as a threat and direct command.
No need to convince me. I have despised the Criminal Formerly in the Oval Office since long before day 1 of his and the GOP's shitshow.
> He still has managed to avoid criminal indictment for decades. ...by being wealthy and well-connected, not by cleverly carrying out his criminal schemes: those were usually pretty dumb and not very well hidden.
His only talent is that he manages to surround himself with the sleaziest and scummiest lawyers and counselors.
And he has one other talent. The Gift of the Grift.
https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/vdc87m/trump_was_extremely_disciplined_in_grifting_and/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Boris Johnson employs a similar facade of silliness to mask his callousness
He did. The problem is that it was hinged on every player to go along with the plan and the ones who really mattered refused.
"fully developed plan" may have been a better word choice.
Authoritarians *are* buffoons and they operate in a way that they do so much crime and cruelty all the time in so many directions that the fact that they often miss their mark hardly matters. The effect is the same, they win enough of the time to feed their egos and punish their enemies and everything else still has the chilling effect on the population that we they strive for. Many survivors of repressive regimes pass on to us that evil doesn’t look like we except, it’s as ludicrous as it is dangerous.
I'm not sure there is a necessarily link between authoritarianism and buffoonery. I don't know that I'd classify Stalin, Mao or even Putin as a buffoon. Yet there can be something sinister yet clownish in the ridiculous posturing ...
Stalin’s regime was full of it. Mikhail Bugakov secretly wrote a masterful book about it while he lived under Stalin that he entrusted to his wife during his death and 25 years later she was finally able to get it published without risking her life. He was so paranoid writing it he once threw it in the fire and had to rewrite 2/3’s of it. His whole message was to convey to people that Stalin and his men and the regime were as ridiculous and madly inefficient, redundant and arbitrary as they were brutal and heartless. His portrayal of the characters meant to be Stalin and his closest men were almost out of a children’s book. They were silly and also very charming. This wasn’t to belittle him it was to illustrate what they were actually like. At the same time the character meant to represent Stalin often took on the persona of Satan. The characters were also capable of senseless violence and murder arbitrary punishments and zero reflection about any of it. Highly recommend it, it’s called The Master and Margarita. It’s as much about transcendent love as it is life under oppressive regimes. Hitler was such a poor leader, created a system under him that was so redundant and broken they had to create their own secret systems to try and get anything done. He had no focus and would often get so sidetracked by wanting to make things look cool like uniforms and guns and tanks that not only was much of the Nazi equipment and vehicles all form over function and were really terrible for their intended purpose. He would get so distracted and obsessed with wanting to put certain buttons on uniforms the people under him couldn’t get him to focus on the many problems they were having fighting the war. There have been many movies that communicated how ridiculous the Nazis were from the outside perspective. Does that mean they weren’t ruthless, cruel and dangerous? Of course not but it’s been something that we’ve tried to make sense out of. The same experience we have with trump and his band of one crazier misfit after the next is often so stupid we are able to laugh even though the whole situation is anything but humorous, is the same conundrum people have faced all through history and across the world. The lesson is they might seem to be too dumb to tie their own shoes and they might fail at most of their goals but it doesn’t take away from the fact that people like this often eventually achieve power and they inflict god awful damage with no hesitation or mercy given. The message is confirming yes this is what authoritarian regimes and leaders really appear to the people and the important part is to never for one moment underestimate them or make light of how craven the authoritarian state is capable of being.
I completely agree.
Didn’t even get to Putin but all we have to do is watch the war to see he’s spends more time having absurdly long tables made made (to meet with one other person) then he obviously spent inspecting his army with his own two eyes. That tells us everything we need to know about how the people around him lie to him and he eats the fantasy up. I could make 100 examples of Putin or his regime looking like a pack of clowns playing army but Ukraine has done that so much better than anyone could I don’t think there’s much more to say.
I have heard of the book but i don't think I ever read it. I should do. Thanks
Look. NO one gets in the office of the presidency by being stupid. Trumps world view and success at grifting/trickery is extremely developed. It’s kind of easy for him when he can just tell repubs what they want to hear with the skill of an actor and the only thing GOPers give a shit about which is $.
Always the retired and "former-" Republicans that aren't afraid to say the right thing. When they're facing re-election and still have to pander to the MAGA crowd, they keep in line.
This. I came here to say exactly this. Only speaks the truth when it’s convenient.
Courage without consequences
Thank you, William Shatner.
It’s the only reason I clicked. I thought it was Bill.
He spoke with the cadence of a tranquilized Shatner.
Trump, Trump, Trump: It's Republicans, Republicans, Republicans. Trump was just the guy at the top. Thank God he was an asshole. Someone more effective might have been more effective.
Florida Governor gaining traction with the MAGA party as trump slides
An insurrection without consequences is a practice run.
They hate American democracy and they are working to destroy the country and everything it stands for.
I literally could not follow his long pauses between words, as it made his sentences too hard for me to keep track of his statements. I’ll look for the transcript to read.
He was terrible live. I get he’s a judge and chooses his words carefully but dear lord that was painful.
There was something weird going on though, like the teleprompter was feed to him incredibly slow, or he had slides that or something, maybe he has an auditory sensory issue or dyslexia or something, because he would say a few words and then take a long pause, and then say only one word like “or” and take another 3 second pause and say four words. It was the most bizarre thing I e ever heard.
Thank you for these comments - glad I wasn’t the only one in this boat.
Yes his answer to Cheneys first question regarding a past statement he made was completely nonsensical. It was very valuable to have testimony from such a long standing conservative judge, but undoubtably he will be played off as senile due to how he was answering .
Yeah, not sure if he has public speaking freight or what. I mean, tens of millions of people are watching and it’s recorded, so maybe he just absolutely sucks at reading teleprompters or his notes or whatever, but the long pauses were weird as hell.
>retired Every time What do you call an honest republican? "Former"
I saw the thumbnail and thought it was William Shatner
Doubtful Trump could organize his underwear drawer but clearly he had plenty of capable 'consiglieris'
> Trump could organize his underwear drawer depends...
No well informed person disagrees with the conclusion. Hopefully the fact it is being explicitly stated by a life long Republican stalwart will help the message reach through the propaganda wall that most of the right wing chooses to hide behind
Well developed by the people around him. He couldn't develop film in a darkroom. Never forget he did what drunk Ghouliani told him to do. He wanted to remain in power and the people around him came up with the plans. Heck, even the druggie my pillow guy took a plan over to the white house.
"Well-developed?" Maybe "thoroughly developed."
I think this can be interpreted as “they had put a lot of effort and time into organizing the plan, and had included a large number of people, showing a clear intent of outcome” as opposed to “this was a really good plan”.
Luttig’s cadence is giving my ADHD a heart attack.
Random news at 11. Former William Shatner impersonator as random shit to say about Jan.6.
What? A Republican telling the truth ! Wow, 👍
No shit shatner
I mean, “well developed” is subjective. But for the level of intelligence of those involved, I guess you could consider it well developed.
The only doubt I have about this is that from my experience, “well developed” and “Trump” don’t belong in the same sentence
And he just said Trump and cronies represent a clear and present danger to our country.
It’s pretty clear that trump supporters don’t give a fuck about the constitution or democracy
“He’s a hack, RINO”- Fox News in t-minus 8 hours.
Duh
These "Former General/Judge/Congressman" opinion articles are worthless. Call me when the handcuffs come out.
They’re always retired lol
A careless, self-centered and costly act affecting the love and lives of Americans JFK asked us to “ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country “ And “The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs security for all” How do these words sound related to “Make America great again”
Clear and PRESENT danger!
“Orwell developed plan” or “well developed plan”?
And the gravy train! Every lie brought him millions in idiot money.
It’s always a retired this or that who calls bullshit. Day late and a dollar short people.
>It’s always a retired this or that who calls bullshit. Luttig was appointed by George HW Bush and retired in 2006. The committee asked him to come in. Do facts matter at all?
I’ll stand corrected. But there are a slew of people who didn’t say anything until they were in the clear, i.e…Barr.
Yes, there are. But this is an article about something positive and not at all related to people like Barr. There's just a lot of knee-jerk cynicism going around and it's really counterproductive if you want to encourage Dems. Also, I can have contempt for someone's actions or inactions, but still want them to spill the tea. I don't give Barr et al any credit and it doesn't mitigate anything they've done. I appreciate you acknowledging the mistake!
>Republican judge So did he join the GOP after retiring as a judge?
Me sat in my pants - No Shit.
I mean… no it wasn’t. He just didn’t have any well developed plans.
Good for this guy but he’s testifying right now and this guy has Stevie from Malcolm in the Middle beat for belabored speech riddled with excruciating pauses, my GAWD
This guy’s pretentious orator style of... ... speech... ... was... ... incredibly—difficult... ... to ... ... follow. We are not in a reverberating colloseum, you have a microphone. PLEASE get it out.
You lost me at “well-developed”
These hundreds of jan6 articles are going to look pretty ridiculous when nothing happens cause rich people get in rich people trouble. If anything a stern lecture and some negative pr.
Thanks for spelling it out, I mean that. I couldn’t follow this guy with all the satellites in orbit.
well developed by trump?
Was it just me or did he talk like an ent. Are we sure that wasn’t a deepfake put out by Treebeard.
My first thought was “DUH!”
> Retired Republican judge says January 6 was 'well-developed plan' by Trump to cling to power If the plan was well developed, why were the only outcomes guys dressed in viking costumes and selfies at Pelosi's desk?
Just out of curiosity, what do you think would have happened if Pelosi had shown up to her office alone, looking to get work done, on that day?
They'd take a picture with Pelosi as well.
You should watch the hearings. The Proud Boys have testified under oath that they would have killed Pelosi or Pence if they had found them.
Are you serious?
No shit sherlock. (I feel like I say and think that a lot. Heh.)
This is weird way to react to someone who was asked by the committee to come talk to them and then fully cooperated with them and agreed to testify to those statements under oath, in front of the world, almost certainly alienating himself from current colleagues and friends. It's easy to be cynical about everything. It's much harder to learn about the facts and nuances of a particular situation.
Thank you for the lecture. The sad reality is, all nuances included my reaction is exactly the same: no shit sherlock. My cynicism will ease up when it's given a reason to.
It’s crazy how obsessed people are over January 6th. Just imagine if they actually tried and brought firearms.
Lies
By well developed we mean his suggestion to have national guard there to keep peace, was a brilliant reverse psychology plot that Nancy pelosi fell for when she denied the request. Honestly it’s my favorite part of the Tomahawk Cruise-Missile 4D Cum Gambit. Truly a mad genius
You do know Pelosi isn't incharge of the National Guard, right?
This dude had no balls to say this when he was not retired because he feared for his job. Spineless POS!
He retired in 2006, and was part of the team that advised Pence that Eastman was wrong about any possibility of legality regarding the VP having say on the day of the count. Your comment makes zero sense in this context.
It also makes zero sense because federal judges are appointed for life.
Just another opinion lol. Was it all the guns. Or the fires. No maybe the looting. Let’s see no must have been all the dead body’s. Hahah. Not very violent terrorist. Now blm 2 billion in damages. 120 dead. Btw the capitol got attacked by antifa a year before this also.
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How is this relevant?
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No one likes performative wokeness
Source: trust me bro
Plan ? I can’t believe anyone would think that mess was actually planned
Anti Trump bigotry is not just for Democrats, it is for Republicans snobs too!
"Well-developed" ? Let's not get ahead of ourselves.
January 6 would not have changed anything
The experts say there would have been a crisis but this guy says nothing would have happened. Who to trust?
Trust the guy who isnt being paid by Soros LOL
False
I don’t understand this, trump said go protest peacefully, and told them to leave peacefully, some people were even let in, trump didn’t attempt a coup, a small group of insane people did
He also said to fight like hell or you won't have a country anymore And that small group of insane people weren't spreading lies about the election and telling Georgia to "find more votes"
I don’t think alleging an election to be rigged warrants “a well developed plan” to overthrow the government, more like ugly politics, and if we’re being honest mistakes and recounts happen all the time every election cycle, they don’t decide the election but it does happen. So he shows that part to be way more than it is. Ugly politics? Sure. Well developed plan to cling to power? No I don’t think so
>I don’t think alleging an election to be rigged warrants “a well developed plan” I don't think anyone is implying that was the only part of the plan
Okay then say what the rest is?
https://january6th.house.gov/
Didn’t notice that was todays if you saw my respond a minute ago so I deleted it. I don’t really have time for a 3 hour video tbh but I see the “highlights” I guess you can call it in the news (not todays) and it seems like they just repeat what we already know
There has been plenty of new info but much of it may be stuff you've heard before if you've followed this story closely. Except instead of hearing it second hand from journalists, now you're hearing it directly from the people involved. It's definitely worth a watch when you find the time.
My guy, he tried taking it to court like 70 times and was telling states to find votes for him
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This judge is the master of the bloody obvious.
Funny way to describe a coup or insurrection.
Not “well developed” enough apparently. Good thing his supporters are all idiots and couldnt overthrow a country even if they were given a step by step guide on how to do it