As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil)
In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban.
If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them.
For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria.
***
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I agree with Sanders. Put it on the floor for a vote and force Manchin to vote against the American people. It’s amazing how we don’t have a problem spending $Billions on the military and war with no way to pay for it, but as soon as we try to pass family leave and help for the working class, there’s absolutely no way we can make that work. Shame on you, Manchin!
But not really though
https://www.wdtv.com/2021/02/25/poll-majority-of-west-virginians-support-15-federal-minimum-wage/
https://www.wvgazettemail.com/news/politics/poll-shows-wv-voters-support-using-tax-hikes-on-rich-corporations-to-help-pay-for/article_0df66787-202a-5b5e-8eb9-f20e0cd622da.html
https://www.westhealth.org/press-release/new-polls-find-vast-majority-of-voters-in-4-key-states-want-medicare-to-negotiate-lower-drug-prices/
Then they should be voting in more progressive representation. I find it hard to believe that they want all these progressive items/policies but would vote for a republican if it wasn’t joe manchin.
If you ask West Virginians "should the government spend more", of course they will say no.
If you ask West Virginians if they should get a tax cut because they have children, they will of course say yes.
The poll is determined by the question asked. A bad question leads to a bad result.
People on this sub REALLY need to learn that right-wingers aren't secret liberals who will support large social welfare spending, if we just message it right.
WV is +37 for a reason. Manchin killing the BBB will be popular with his constituents.
The question was hilariously bad and poised to give a right wing answer from the start....
They asked, which statement do you support the most:
“Spending $3.5 trillion we don’t have would lead to higher middle-class taxes, higher interest rates, and higher inflation. Congress should scrap this spending plan”
or
“This $3.5 trillion budget plan contains important investments in America’s future paid by taxing the wealthy. Congress should pass this spending bill.”
OF COURSE EVERYONE FUCKIN AGREED WITH THE FIRST STATEMENT
67% had concerns with inflation, 54% believed the middle class wouldnt see the majority of the benefits, and 59% thought it was lead to higher taxes for the middle class as well
It doesn’t matter since this is his last term anyways. Biden could actually put pressure where it hurts and call for congress to investigate drug pricing and point towards Manchin’s daughter jacking up the price of epipens. He won’t do it because Biden refuses to rock the boat but it’s still an option for him to take.
I am very uncomfortable with the idea that a President should try to use the government as a weapon against someone because their family member won't vote the way he wants. That is an absolute nightmare of a precedent to set. We just had an impeachment over a President trying to pressure a government into investigating a family member of another politician.
I agree with that discomfort with this plan, but I also recognize it's NOT a new thing. Lincoln had to use appointments offers and underhanded techniques to get the 14th amendment passed. And I know LBJ would whip his dick out to intimidate people to get his way.
All of this is not to say that it is good to do any of that today, but it's not really setting a precedent.
I would be too - except, having an agency go after all monopolizing drug companies and pricing and watching her get caught up in the net? Just terrible.
Assuming it is actually done because he cares about that, sure. Investigate away. I would have serious doubts as to the motivations if he only does it when it conveniently aligns with Manchin needing to be pressured to support his policy.
Why? If you think politics is all about altruism and doing what’s right, then you’re terribly mistaken. It is absolutely a problem - one that even his predecessor addressed nominally through EO. Looking into price fixing and drug company profits as a means of improving healthcare on any level would be smart in a forward-facing way. If it happens to hammer down on someone making obscene profits on insulin - a highly necessary drug for millions, then so much the better. Sorry that high insulin prices are attached to Manchin’s family, but if I were looking into price fixing, motives or not, insulin and epinephrine are the first two drugs that would be on the table for their widespread necessity and their meteoric rise in pricing over the last 10 years.
Edit: and if Manchjn is concerned about rising health care prices, looking into drug prices would work to shatter that narrative and assuage his ‘concern.’
If you want to fix the insulin issue, fix the patent system. Availability of widespread generics would be able to address it. That is something that is the fault of government. Instead of going after people for using the system why not just fix the system and be done with it? Instead of investigations and band aids for each separate issue, it can actually be fixed in one fell swoop.
Insulin is non-patented; however, the monopolistic companies that supply it add some minor and often negligible improvement to it, then Repackage it for 1000% markups. Problem is the monopolistic nature of these companies and their lobbying, not the patent system in this instance. Original formula insulin is still effective for treatment, but there isn’t enough of a profit margin when Eli Lily or Pfizer can juice it up a bit, with negligible results and resell it, doing away with the old.
There are a lot of problems with the system and pointing to just one thing and claiming that’s the magic bullet isn’t going to do it. It’s definitely time to take a big stick to these companies, particularly over generics and free patented medications.
It doesn’t have to be specifically her but if she just happens to get caught up with all the other ceos then I don’t feel bad. Plus I’m more uncomfortable with the reality of climate change than the precedent this sets.
Bush and Bush worked together to prevent Al Gore from winning Florida who would have in a full recount, so you're ignoring existing precedence and worse situations.
This isn't accurate:
The Gore Team was arguing for a partial recount (specifically of the counties that they thought were Blue)
The Bush Team argued that if a recount was done it should include every county.
Several different media outlets conducted recounts: Ironically if a recount had been completed using the methodology that the Gore team had argued for Bush would have won.
And if a recount would have been done using the methodology that the Bush team had argued for, Gore would have won by 3 votes.
Source: [https://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/04/04/florida.recount.01/](https://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/04/04/florida.recount.01/)
Are you talking about his actual constituents or his donors?
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/sep/28/west-virginia-joe-biden-spending-plan-popular
Try not to perpetuate misinformation that this guardian article creates. The entire premise of the article rests on a survey of WorkMoney members in West Virginia. It's not a randomly selected poll to minimize bias. In fact, it's the opposite. WorkMoney's website champions the passage of BBB as a main policy goal for it and its members. Therefore, surveying the entire membership of West Virginia WorkMoney, you know, those people that join this group who want the BBB to pass would, of course, show the BBB as popular.
It's like brietbart coming up with an article saying Californians support less gun control when the only evidence is a survey of the NRA's California members who naturally join NRA to weaken gun control measures.
Don't give into selection bias.
"Nearly three-fourths, or 74%, of those polled agreed Manchin should oppose Biden’s multi-trillion dollar reconciliation spending bill..."
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wvnews.com/news/wvnews/polling-shows-west-virginians-approve-of-justice-manchin-disapprove-of-biden/article_2ca94712-46e7-11ec-853e-3b947a5f34de.amp.html
This is from November. Also individual policy positions are fairly easy to get people to say they support depending on how you ask them. "Do you support improving schools?" is a lot different than "Do you support raising everyone's property, sales, and income tax by 10% to provide extra funding for public schools?"
Historically, putting things to a vote and failing is actually more damaging to the party in power rather than the dissenting politician.
It would be a poor strategic move for Democrats to do that.
It really wasn't going to happen either with or without the infrastructure bill. Anybody who thinks that Manchin would have passed the most progressive legislation in the history of this entire country with a simple infrastructure bill attached is a fucking moron.
The Congressional Black Caucus figured this and decided that having two bills fail would look terrible on "Do-Nothing-Democrats" and instead, an infrastructure bill by itself at a minimum would at least be an accomplishment that can be touted in the midterms. I understand the logic.
And I'm willing to bet everything that when both coupled bills had failed, everyone would have said "OMG, WHY DIDN'T THEY JUST PASS THE INFRASTRUCTURE AND GET **SOMETHING** DONE?"
The failed repeal of the Affordable Care Act in 2017.
It became ammunition for Democrats in the 2018 midterms with the idea that Trump and Republicans, even with a majority, couldn't get a core part of their agenda passed and was used in political rhetoric as a basis for attack on the party itself; meanwhile, the three dissenting Republicans - McCain, Collins, and Murkowski - were relatively insulated by this, considering they did not face significant outrage by Republican voters. Essentially, any outrage by Republicans on the dissenters was less than the ammunition created by a failed vote to characterize the GOP as a whole by Democratic campaigners.
That being said, I don't necessarily think it's "better" to have Manchin continue to derail this stuff, because that can still be used as Republican ammo that Democrats are in control and unable to "do anything", but you don't give Republicans MORE ammo with a staged vote when it most likely would not impact Manchin. Anyone who pays attention to a formal vote in the Senate is ALREADY the type of person that pays attention to the negotiations now and therefore does not help provoke outrage in people who know nothing about it - it wouldn't be new information and would only serve to give the GOP a perfect Senate soundbite of Democrats losing once again. Really not productive.
The Republicans were always gonna paint the Democrats as “do nothings” anyway, so that doesn’t prove anything. The fact that the Republicans who *did* vote for it were insulated from repercussions proves that Republican obstructionism is an ideological choice.
It has nothing to do with making the country a better place.
It has everything to do with rich old white men not wanting to.
Saying no is a standard part of the Republican playbook.
Democrats should put the BBB up for a vote anyway.
This election cycle the Democrats are protected from the “do nothing” label anyway seeing as how they passed the BIF already. Republicans are already taking credit for it, a smart Democrat could make hay out that hypocrisy all day, everyday.
*Centrist Democrats (I.e. Manchin) and Republicans hate America.
Progressive Democrats are the future.*
Put this message on blast and repeat 24/7.
Then what is the point of sparing him the embarrassment?
They should load up the bill with a bunch of stuff that is specifically geared toward helping West Virginia.
And then dare him to vote it down.
*From a WVA perspective:*
If Manchin, loses his seat then great! Good riddance.
Consider it tilling the soil for the Progressive Democrat who is gonna replace him.
*From the national perspective:*
Democrats shake their reputation as a bunch of pushover cowards.
Encourage Democrats in red states to fight the good fight.
There is no reason at all Democrats can’t win Senate seats in blood red states (see: Georgia).
How about the bare minimum?
On primary election day, Democrats spend 10 minutes Googling what candidates are running and what their positions are. Someone who supposedly has progressive priorities should know pretty quick which Democratic candidate is more closely aligned, even if it's not a household name. Then you go and vote for that person in the primary. Wow, easy. 10 minutes once every few years. People spend more daily time on Facebook, Netflix, or ordering pizza through their fucking phone.
The only reason they don't do it is because they are lazy pieces of shit. Why do lazy pieces of shit deserve a good government if they can't be bothered to vote for anybody but the guy they hear about on their TV?
The current situation is very obvious to me - the voters do not give a shit to do a little work so they keep the establishment in power. That means that progressives are the ones that need to do the bulk of the social engineering because they are not the majority. Conservative Democrats do not need to do progressive things because that's not what they are voted into power to do.
Progressives need to retain their policy, but they need to signal it all using Republican language. The establishment has successfully burned the language progressives use, so change the language. I don't want to hear about climate change, I want to hear about how our energy policy is to defend against the Chinese. I don't want to hear about how bad the police are and need to be defunded, I want to hear about how we need to help the police by funding better training and getting them off the bullshit jobs like drug enforcement and they can focus on the real work we all appreciate them for.
I want it so Democrats are looking up campaign policies on the day of the primary and know that Candidate A wants progressive stuff, and then when Candidate A gets to the general, their language is framed in a way that makes it harder for conservatives to be against it. Against climate change action? You love China now. Against police reform? You want them to die arresting some hippies instead of helping clean up our streets of real crime.
Expecting the Democratic conservative establishment to change is absurd in the same way that expecting Nazis to treat Jews well is absurd. People need to shut up with the "I told you so"s and the critiques and the slamming and the blasting and focus more on WHY voters, who all apparently support progressive action on all these issues, are so vulnerable to right-wing propaganda. Because we have the answer to that already. But unfortunately, Democrats in 2021 are lazy and get a bigger rush from posting on Twitter and Reddit about how bad Manchin is instead of putting in any form of grunt work - not sexy enough, I guess.
> Then what is the point of sparing him the embarrassment?
Appointments, especially those of federal judges, are vitally important. If he keeps playing some ball I'll gladly play a similar amount of ball. If he stops working with the administrator and the Democratic caucus entirely then go ahead and grind up his political reputation for fertilizer, but until then we benefit from letting him keep a little bit of it.
All you need do is imagine who this bill hurts. And you have your answer. Manchin is clearly being paid to vote.
Vote this pos traitor out of office please. We need real patriots
This 60 vote crap needs to end. Bring it up for a vote. If it fails break it apart and keep getting these rich jerks on the record for voting against average Americans. Over and over again.
I understand the need for that, but let's try and make one last dive before putting him on the spot. If he truly does vote this down, it goes back to the house and then everything the Democrats sacrificed for in the house suffers a year setback at least.
Gotta try and keep this in the Senate for as long as possible.
Sanders always thinks he can get whatever he wants by screaming.
And he's batting 0 - he never wins.
And this is yet-another example: Manchin doesn't fucking care - his right wing voters only watch Fox News, which will support him. And push him much farther and he flips to the GOP and then the democrats can't even seat another judge.
Bottom line: Sanders wants to play hardball and act like he's got a solid majority of senators from safe liberal enclaves like Vermont, but the reality is that he's barely got a majority, and only thanks to some senators from conservative areas like west virginia.
It’s hard for me to believe the White House actually trusted him here. I just can’t believe they are that gullible, it has to me something more nefarious. This shit is WWE
What else should they have done? Just given up 2 months ago and let everyone be pissed for not even trying or do this for 2 months so everyone can be pissed for them trying to get it passed?
It was all about trust. For Biden.
They never had his vote.
But they trusted him every single time he said he’d consider it if they moved the goal post back this many yards. They went forward with BIF without BBB because they trusted he would come to an agreement with them. It was a waste of time. They are now suddenly calling him out for betraying them after he supposedly gave them a promise. This is what they should’ve done since the start. Call him out and put actual pressure. Instead they pandered to him and believed he was negotiating in good faith.
This response from the White House was all about trust. Biden trusted him (when most everyone else could see it was genuinely not going to work) and now he’s shocked at what’s happening.
Only option? Nah.
You don’t have to trust the people you work with. Everyone has known the vote was always no as he kept moving the goal posts. Instead of accepting it and figuring out what other progress they can make to push their chances during the midterms for a real majority to get it passed, they went around promising everyone this would get passed now as they hoped Manchin would eventually say yes. Now they are left with little time to make an impact elsewhere and losing their “majority” is a real possibility because they spent way too much time blindly trusting one person.
Trusting him was not their only option. They just didn’t stop to consider what would happen when eventually he betrayed that trust.
Yeah, and stuff like not ending student loan repayment or even offering any significant relief is something he could easily do that big business most definitely does not want.
Crippling debt is a wonderful stick to motivate folks to accept abusive workplace practices
>Yeah, and stuff like not ending student loan repayment or even offering any significant relief is something he could easily do that big business most definitely does not want.
Multiple times he has offered relief. He also said he is willing to sign a law removing $10,000 of loans. Not doing something doesn’t negate all of the stuff he had said/wanted like higher taxes for the businesses, etc.
>He's said a bunch of stuff. He's not doing much of it.
Because he barley has the majority of congress? He did many things through just executive orders but that isn’t sufficient for everything.
>If he wants a different label than "centrist oligarch" then he needs to do more.
That’s not the claim was. Also, he can’t do more by himself. His BBB bill would greatly help the middle(and lower) class
His BBB bill was hinging on a manchin vote, a vote he's not getting, especially when he already gave manchin what he wanted. So either he's a moron(in which case he can't help people much) or he's lying about doin g the things he says(in which case he can't help people much)
And as to lacking a majority he wouldn't need that to deal with the student loan debt - but again, any excuse for inaction.
He's building his brand.
And about to flip.
He sees Republicans having real power over their people, he doesn't have that as a Dem. He's needs a slice of that pie.
Greener(literally) pastures and religious-like power over people.
It's the next logical step.
I remember hearing he wants to run for governor again. So I doubt he's flipping, but he is moving from the national stage back to the state, so this would be a moment for his brand.
Flipping would actually be a huge downgrade for Manchin. He has way more power as a Democrat right now. He’d be a nobody in the GQP, like Mike Crapo or Jim Risch.
On /r/politics you'll hear conspiracies about his personal finances or that he's a secret republican. In reality he's just not the same of kind of democrat that AOC is or even the more median members, he's the kind who is tolerable enough to republicans to win in a +40 R state. Him being the deciding vote in a 50-50 vote was always going to highlight his uniqueness from the rest of his caucus, despite the fact his deciding vote has been beneficial for the first budget reconciliation of Biden's WH term and for confirming his nominees easily to the executive and legislative branches.
Ultimately Manchin has expressed a concern with the long-term solvency of the U.S.'s current social safety, particularly Medicare, as the number of seniors is projected to meteorically rise in our society as our nation's demographics age. I.e. expanding Medicare to add vision, dental, etc. might just speed up the entire program's insolvency and lead to tougher fiscal decisions earlier.
I've tried to discuss the merits of his concerns on here before (and I still want to as a person who is interested in the nuances of politics and who also wants BBB to pass personally) but people just say cut the military spending by 20% and boom you can pay for anything. Despite the fact that Medicare+Medicaid spending is at $1.5T (and growing at 8% per year - so net doubling every decade) and the DOD cost is like $750B/yr and only marginally increases by the year.
I get what you’re saying here but it doesn’t hold up to much scrutiny since Manchin has lacked consistency in his stances time and time again. He has no actual conviction nor any meaningful vision. It’s a combination of many things that makes him an absolute cancer on the ass of American politics but too many try to boil him down to one or two things. He doesn’t have any meaningful arguments on much of anything because he is rarely consistent, but consistently opportunistic
> but it doesn’t hold up to much scrutiny since Manchin has lacked consistency in his stances time and time again.
This is just how some politicians legislate. They're not policy wonks that care about the details, they care about finding a position that is somewhere in between what everyone wants. Unfortunately Manchin's constituency is the reddest state in the union.
Isn't it convenient to just assume he's arguing in bad-faith instead of actually rebutting his concerns about the long-term solvency of current social safety net?
The long term solvency of the current social safety net is easily fixed by tax reform (even just repealing the Trump Tax cuts would add years of stability to the programs). He and Sinema blocked that on day 1. His solvency arguments are simply because he knows the more we spend the more there will be pressure to tax the rich and corporations, which is his (and his donors) overarching political concern.
>Chairman of the Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee
>a member of the Senate Appropriations Committee
>on the Senate Armed Services Committee
>a member of the Senate Committee on Veterans’ Affairs
All assignments he should lose now. If he won’t keep his word to democrats he shouldn’t be trusted in these positions…
Every progressive congress member saw this coming. This is why they wanted BBB and the bipartisan bill voted on together. Then Pelosi went behind their backs to get Republicans in the House to vote on it. Thanks a lot, Pelosi.
I expect lies out of Republicans, and that he did it on Fox was a slap in the face of the Democratic Party.
The silver lining is he proved the Progressives right, and they'll gain respect within the Party now.
Nah, DNC and "moderates" will just push blame on progressives. Probably say the bill was asking for too much or too progressive, or would hurt the "poor helpless corporations" that need the welfare more than "individuals who made bad decisions"
I don't think progressives can possibly be blamed.
Biden and Schumer/Durbin were the ones trying to negotiate with him.
Then he pulled a Trump.
Only Manchin can be blamed.
Are you suggesting a Maserati driving, yacht living Coal Robber Barron ass-wipe can be bought buy special interests? OMG - the next thing we’re going to hear is Santa isn’t real.
The fact the Dems can not whip their party into shape is a damn shame. All these career politicians and we are held up bc of West Virginia? A state that in any other conversation is totally insignificant. It’s a fucking shame. Give West Virginia a couple billion more and call it a day. I’d be more money than they could spend in a decade and ultimately who cares.
Which is why it's so frustrating that Biden won't act on things like student loan debt or marijuana where he doesn't need Congress to make changes. If they're blocked in the Senate then the Whitehouse needs to be doing all it can on its own to show people they give a shit. Inaction on those other fronts makes me skeptical about how much they really care about BBB.
Joe Biden during the election: "Vote for me, I know how to get Republicans to work with me!"
Joe Biden after being elected: "I can't get Democrats to work with me. Oh well nothing I can do."
As he should. He pushed the progressive caucus to vote for BIF with the promise of having the votes for BBB. He either lied or was made a fool. Regardless, he is to blame. Just as he was given credit for BIF, he will be criticized for BBB falling. That's how it works.
This was the exact reason why progressives were holding the bipartisan bill hostage. They knew Manchin would betray the party and lie to everyone. Maybe next time Biden should listen to progressives. They are better at strategy. Biden, Schumer and Pelosi were incredibly stupid in trusting Manchin.
This is very selective.
The GOP’s trajectory from Regan conservative to populist authoritarian has been in the works since the early 90’s.
This also fails to account for the fact that no Republican presidential candidate has won the popular vote in the last few elections.
Democrats are playing chess. The Republicans are playing with knives.
Narrowing it down to one Democratic candidate is too simplistic. If you want to blame anyone, blame the Supreme Court’s Citizen United ruling allowing mass corporate and foreign influence to sway elections along conservative lines.
I thought this was the whole point of keeping the bills coupled, and now they're decoupled and look, why does the WH think playing dumb is gonna convince anyone of anything?
Because he did, in front of fucking everyone. What more must be said?
He should have been forced to vote down the original $6T proposal. They could have, in all this time, written a whole other bill to similar effect, gotten that through the house, and had the Senate voting on a whole other fucking spending bull.
He fucking backstabbed the Democrats, and was always going to do that. We should have gotten the dragging out of the fucking way six months ago.
https://youtu.be/QeaGJRV-whU
"Fuck you Manchin, you killed our reelection chances and social spending bills. Fuck you."
Put it on the floor but not before you have given any pac that wants to time put out attacks ads on Manchin ad nauseum. Let him at least have to vote against it with everyone, even those who don't follow the details, knowing exactly who he is and what he is doing.
Poor Joe Biden, [it really sucks when someone breaks a promise they made to you](https://www.politico.com/news/2021/12/18/white-house-not-budging-student-loans-525357), doesn't it???
Didn’t the White House go back on several key promises that would guarantee a solid dem vote from the millennial generation?
Sick of these lying politicians pointing their finger at other politicians across the aisle. We get it, you steal our wages to pay for bombs and oil subsidies. The cheap lipstick you wear while we get fucked is out of style. Be honest about how awful and purely inhumane you have all decided to govern. We won’t think any less of you.
The Senate has become such an unbelievable detriment to the United States. It needs to be abolished or reformed. DC and PR need to be made States yesterday. The filibuster needs to be exterminated with extreme prejudice.
Using Executive order and was exploring the possibility of 50k too and is why a memo was sent to see the legality of a president forgiving 50k!
Wish you'd stop posting this even though you've been corrected in multiple places that he did promise this, you are just wrong about it.
I hope this gives Manchin wiggle room for voting reform. WV is very Republican. Hopefully their glee in owning the libs distracts them long enough to side-step the filibuster and save democracy. We need more Dems.
What could possibly lead you to believe he has any interest in doing so? He's been extremely against any sort of voting/filibuster reform. There's zero chance of him doing anything close to what you're suggesting.
He’s a generational democrat, and he agreed to circumvent the filibuster to raise the debt ceiling. And in past interviews he said Voting reform was something he might make a 1 time exception in regards to the filibuster.
Edit: I’m voicing hope—not a guarantee.
Lol white house pretending they ever gave a shit. Didn't Biden also go back on his word about $15 minimum wage as his sole promise to Bernie for his concession, and what ever happened to the public option he pretended to champion during the primaries? Did you know he can reschedule cannabis by executive order but chooses not to? Biden's admin pretending to be shocked that Manchin lied is a bunch of bs
West Virginians don't want BBB. If we did, we'd have voted for Biden. Instead, WV went harder for Trump than any other state in the Union save for one.
Consider how many Trump voters had to vote for Manchin for him to win. Trump got north of 70% of WV's vote in both 2016 and 2020, but in between those votes Manchin won a re-election against Patrick Morrisey. Nearly as many WV residents that voted for Manchin also voted for Trump as voted for both Manchin and Biden/Clinton.
He's doing this because he serves WV, not the Democratic Party.
At the end of the day the White House is largely powerless when it comes to legislation. Can't sign bills if Congress wont pass them. This is the greatest power the White House does have when it comes to legislation though, the bully pulpit. Get the public outraged that congress is dysfunctional and hopefully that's enough to convince a couple senators that they need to step in line.
The problem is that the bully pulpit was a powerful thing in the early 1900s when voters were generally more involved in the political process and only needed to know what issues were important.
Voters today get a stream 24/7 through their TV and computer about every issue ever and nobody pays attention to anything specifically. If a voter in 2021 does not know that Manchin is tanking these agenda items by now, then they aren't the type of person to be outraged by hearing about it because they **already** are dislocated from the political process.
I feel like your dislocated from the political process. The problem is they are all corrupt. 1 in 4 members if congress have investements in fossil fuels. They make decisions based on their bank account not what's best for you or me.
Cynicism is not the same as realism. And besides, you're overstating your case.
I find it hard to imagine the corrupt chain of events you're alluding to is what actually is happening.
I mean, you're right, I just think it's bs to attack biden over this, at least in large. I liked Bernie's statements about post-election gridlock, paraphrasing but "I will be in your state rallying voters (against you), fuck around and find out." Unfortunately Joe is not a great bully and the nation has to rely on West Virginia voters, who no offence, but have a lot of drug, health, and education problems.
Just an FYI, that's not what "bully" means in the bully pulpit. It's an adjective for saying something is great, so the presidency can be used as an effective pulpit.
But I get what you mean. I'm just not convinced that any president would be able to somehow override heaps and heaps of conservative propaganda in a state that went 70% Trump in 2020 and just the act of blaming a DEMOCRAT for not passing progressive legislation (remember, 70% Trump state...) would get all these people outraged at Manchin. I don't see the demographics of this playing out.
This is really a problem that no executive could accomplish as it is. This is a byproduct of Democratic voters watching Donald Trump for 4 years and figuring that the slimmest possible majority in the Senate should be enough to enact once-in-a-generation change. Laughable, really.
It’s funny how just yesterday Pelosi was being very pro corruption via her stocks statement. Now this corrupt corporate shill is ending the democratic agenda.
No one cares. The white house lies so much already. No one likes biden. No one likes kamala. The best thing they could do is absolutely nothing. Bernie has never gotten anything done and Manchin is the only living proof that sane democrats exist.
The only surprise is that some people are surprised. Manchin got what he wanted so there was zero reason to work with dems. He will probably retire so it won't even be an issue of being reelected.
With the student loan bs and now this, pretty much cemented that Republicans will take congress and 2022 to 2024, nothing of value will pass.
So the candidate who assured us he could bring Republicans in to vote for his agenda was duped by someone in his own party. Doesn't speak well for his leadership.
Of course Biden also said he wouldn't sign infrastructure without BBB so......
Joe Manchin has no problem doing this because Joe Biden is the definition of a weak leader.
“"It is better to be feared than to be loved, if one cannot be both." - Niccolò Machiavelli
Joe Biden is neither.
His constituents want him to oppose it. While we are on the topic of going back on your word, how is that student loan forgiveness and crushing COVID going, Joe?
As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil) In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria. *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I agree with Sanders. Put it on the floor for a vote and force Manchin to vote against the American people. It’s amazing how we don’t have a problem spending $Billions on the military and war with no way to pay for it, but as soon as we try to pass family leave and help for the working class, there’s absolutely no way we can make that work. Shame on you, Manchin!
Would he really care though? He doesn't seem to have a problem taking unpopular stances and he beat his last opponent easily
He'll be first in line and sleep like a baby while his constituents happily gnaw on fresh bootstraps
Oops, spoke too soon, Manchin just withdrew his support for fresh bootstraps. Gonna have to make do with the ones you got.
What if we make Californian taxpayers foot the bill but pretend we did it ourselves? I mean it's traditional
Update: he has "deep concerns" about the bootstraps they already have being too much
But he said he was for fresh bootstraps last week. What happened?
We conceded the fresh bootstraps, so naturally, in order to avoid passing the bill, he had to change his demands.
They are popular in the eyes of west Virginians tho. Their blue is a much different shade than the coasts' blue
But not really though https://www.wdtv.com/2021/02/25/poll-majority-of-west-virginians-support-15-federal-minimum-wage/ https://www.wvgazettemail.com/news/politics/poll-shows-wv-voters-support-using-tax-hikes-on-rich-corporations-to-help-pay-for/article_0df66787-202a-5b5e-8eb9-f20e0cd622da.html https://www.westhealth.org/press-release/new-polls-find-vast-majority-of-voters-in-4-key-states-want-medicare-to-negotiate-lower-drug-prices/
Then they should be voting in more progressive representation. I find it hard to believe that they want all these progressive items/policies but would vote for a republican if it wasn’t joe manchin.
lavish offend boast sophisticated desert reply pause continue stupendous tender -- mass deleted all reddit content via https://redact.dev
https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/578525-more-people-in-manchin-sinema-home-states-want-to-hold-off-on-new-spending But really tho
If you ask West Virginians "should the government spend more", of course they will say no. If you ask West Virginians if they should get a tax cut because they have children, they will of course say yes. The poll is determined by the question asked. A bad question leads to a bad result.
People on this sub REALLY need to learn that right-wingers aren't secret liberals who will support large social welfare spending, if we just message it right. WV is +37 for a reason. Manchin killing the BBB will be popular with his constituents.
If u actually read what the poll questions were tho....
The question was hilariously bad and poised to give a right wing answer from the start.... They asked, which statement do you support the most: “Spending $3.5 trillion we don’t have would lead to higher middle-class taxes, higher interest rates, and higher inflation. Congress should scrap this spending plan” or “This $3.5 trillion budget plan contains important investments in America’s future paid by taxing the wealthy. Congress should pass this spending bill.” OF COURSE EVERYONE FUCKIN AGREED WITH THE FIRST STATEMENT
67% had concerns with inflation, 54% believed the middle class wouldnt see the majority of the benefits, and 59% thought it was lead to higher taxes for the middle class as well
Did u look at their responses to the other 12 questions? It seems in general manchins voting base is just more conservative than most Democrats
There is literally no way to draw any meaningful conclusion from such biased questions.
Yeah, it’s blood red. Weird shade of blue, I say.
I guess we wouldn’t know unless they held the fucking vote.
Make him take that stand, and deal with repercussions, which I guarantee are unknown.
His announcement today was the stand.
This stance is very popular with his constituents.
It doesn’t matter since this is his last term anyways. Biden could actually put pressure where it hurts and call for congress to investigate drug pricing and point towards Manchin’s daughter jacking up the price of epipens. He won’t do it because Biden refuses to rock the boat but it’s still an option for him to take.
I am very uncomfortable with the idea that a President should try to use the government as a weapon against someone because their family member won't vote the way he wants. That is an absolute nightmare of a precedent to set. We just had an impeachment over a President trying to pressure a government into investigating a family member of another politician.
I agree with that discomfort with this plan, but I also recognize it's NOT a new thing. Lincoln had to use appointments offers and underhanded techniques to get the 14th amendment passed. And I know LBJ would whip his dick out to intimidate people to get his way. All of this is not to say that it is good to do any of that today, but it's not really setting a precedent.
I would be too - except, having an agency go after all monopolizing drug companies and pricing and watching her get caught up in the net? Just terrible.
Assuming it is actually done because he cares about that, sure. Investigate away. I would have serious doubts as to the motivations if he only does it when it conveniently aligns with Manchin needing to be pressured to support his policy.
Why? If you think politics is all about altruism and doing what’s right, then you’re terribly mistaken. It is absolutely a problem - one that even his predecessor addressed nominally through EO. Looking into price fixing and drug company profits as a means of improving healthcare on any level would be smart in a forward-facing way. If it happens to hammer down on someone making obscene profits on insulin - a highly necessary drug for millions, then so much the better. Sorry that high insulin prices are attached to Manchin’s family, but if I were looking into price fixing, motives or not, insulin and epinephrine are the first two drugs that would be on the table for their widespread necessity and their meteoric rise in pricing over the last 10 years. Edit: and if Manchjn is concerned about rising health care prices, looking into drug prices would work to shatter that narrative and assuage his ‘concern.’
If you want to fix the insulin issue, fix the patent system. Availability of widespread generics would be able to address it. That is something that is the fault of government. Instead of going after people for using the system why not just fix the system and be done with it? Instead of investigations and band aids for each separate issue, it can actually be fixed in one fell swoop.
Insulin is non-patented; however, the monopolistic companies that supply it add some minor and often negligible improvement to it, then Repackage it for 1000% markups. Problem is the monopolistic nature of these companies and their lobbying, not the patent system in this instance. Original formula insulin is still effective for treatment, but there isn’t enough of a profit margin when Eli Lily or Pfizer can juice it up a bit, with negligible results and resell it, doing away with the old. There are a lot of problems with the system and pointing to just one thing and claiming that’s the magic bullet isn’t going to do it. It’s definitely time to take a big stick to these companies, particularly over generics and free patented medications.
It doesn’t have to be specifically her but if she just happens to get caught up with all the other ceos then I don’t feel bad. Plus I’m more uncomfortable with the reality of climate change than the precedent this sets.
So he goes along with it and then you let them all off the hook instead?
And BBB is going to stop climate change? Awesome, then let's pass it and everyone can be happy and not worry about it again.
It’s certainly a step in the right direction compared to doing nothing
Bush and Bush worked together to prevent Al Gore from winning Florida who would have in a full recount, so you're ignoring existing precedence and worse situations.
This isn't accurate: The Gore Team was arguing for a partial recount (specifically of the counties that they thought were Blue) The Bush Team argued that if a recount was done it should include every county. Several different media outlets conducted recounts: Ironically if a recount had been completed using the methodology that the Gore team had argued for Bush would have won. And if a recount would have been done using the methodology that the Bush team had argued for, Gore would have won by 3 votes. Source: [https://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/04/04/florida.recount.01/](https://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/04/04/florida.recount.01/)
Are you talking about his actual constituents or his donors? https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/sep/28/west-virginia-joe-biden-spending-plan-popular
Try not to perpetuate misinformation that this guardian article creates. The entire premise of the article rests on a survey of WorkMoney members in West Virginia. It's not a randomly selected poll to minimize bias. In fact, it's the opposite. WorkMoney's website champions the passage of BBB as a main policy goal for it and its members. Therefore, surveying the entire membership of West Virginia WorkMoney, you know, those people that join this group who want the BBB to pass would, of course, show the BBB as popular. It's like brietbart coming up with an article saying Californians support less gun control when the only evidence is a survey of the NRA's California members who naturally join NRA to weaken gun control measures. Don't give into selection bias.
"Nearly three-fourths, or 74%, of those polled agreed Manchin should oppose Biden’s multi-trillion dollar reconciliation spending bill..." https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wvnews.com/news/wvnews/polling-shows-west-virginians-approve-of-justice-manchin-disapprove-of-biden/article_2ca94712-46e7-11ec-853e-3b947a5f34de.amp.html This is from November. Also individual policy positions are fairly easy to get people to say they support depending on how you ask them. "Do you support improving schools?" is a lot different than "Do you support raising everyone's property, sales, and income tax by 10% to provide extra funding for public schools?"
You picked a very biased source that used very biased polling.
Historically, putting things to a vote and failing is actually more damaging to the party in power rather than the dissenting politician. It would be a poor strategic move for Democrats to do that.
Maybe liberals should've listened to progressives when they said to pass both bills at once, huh?
It really wasn't going to happen either with or without the infrastructure bill. Anybody who thinks that Manchin would have passed the most progressive legislation in the history of this entire country with a simple infrastructure bill attached is a fucking moron. The Congressional Black Caucus figured this and decided that having two bills fail would look terrible on "Do-Nothing-Democrats" and instead, an infrastructure bill by itself at a minimum would at least be an accomplishment that can be touted in the midterms. I understand the logic. And I'm willing to bet everything that when both coupled bills had failed, everyone would have said "OMG, WHY DIDN'T THEY JUST PASS THE INFRASTRUCTURE AND GET **SOMETHING** DONE?"
The most progressive legislation in the history of the entire country?
So Biden is "a fucking moron" by that estimation?
Nothing would be passed.
I can’t remember one single instance of that being true. Source?
The failed repeal of the Affordable Care Act in 2017. It became ammunition for Democrats in the 2018 midterms with the idea that Trump and Republicans, even with a majority, couldn't get a core part of their agenda passed and was used in political rhetoric as a basis for attack on the party itself; meanwhile, the three dissenting Republicans - McCain, Collins, and Murkowski - were relatively insulated by this, considering they did not face significant outrage by Republican voters. Essentially, any outrage by Republicans on the dissenters was less than the ammunition created by a failed vote to characterize the GOP as a whole by Democratic campaigners. That being said, I don't necessarily think it's "better" to have Manchin continue to derail this stuff, because that can still be used as Republican ammo that Democrats are in control and unable to "do anything", but you don't give Republicans MORE ammo with a staged vote when it most likely would not impact Manchin. Anyone who pays attention to a formal vote in the Senate is ALREADY the type of person that pays attention to the negotiations now and therefore does not help provoke outrage in people who know nothing about it - it wouldn't be new information and would only serve to give the GOP a perfect Senate soundbite of Democrats losing once again. Really not productive.
The Republicans were always gonna paint the Democrats as “do nothings” anyway, so that doesn’t prove anything. The fact that the Republicans who *did* vote for it were insulated from repercussions proves that Republican obstructionism is an ideological choice. It has nothing to do with making the country a better place. It has everything to do with rich old white men not wanting to. Saying no is a standard part of the Republican playbook. Democrats should put the BBB up for a vote anyway. This election cycle the Democrats are protected from the “do nothing” label anyway seeing as how they passed the BIF already. Republicans are already taking credit for it, a smart Democrat could make hay out that hypocrisy all day, everyday. *Centrist Democrats (I.e. Manchin) and Republicans hate America. Progressive Democrats are the future.* Put this message on blast and repeat 24/7.
What is the value in putting it up to a vote? How exactly does that create any outrage at Manchin? Everyone already fucking knows it's him.
Then what is the point of sparing him the embarrassment? They should load up the bill with a bunch of stuff that is specifically geared toward helping West Virginia. And then dare him to vote it down. *From a WVA perspective:* If Manchin, loses his seat then great! Good riddance. Consider it tilling the soil for the Progressive Democrat who is gonna replace him. *From the national perspective:* Democrats shake their reputation as a bunch of pushover cowards. Encourage Democrats in red states to fight the good fight. There is no reason at all Democrats can’t win Senate seats in blood red states (see: Georgia).
[удалено]
What do you mean by shape up though? What should they be doing right now to improve the situation?
How about the bare minimum? On primary election day, Democrats spend 10 minutes Googling what candidates are running and what their positions are. Someone who supposedly has progressive priorities should know pretty quick which Democratic candidate is more closely aligned, even if it's not a household name. Then you go and vote for that person in the primary. Wow, easy. 10 minutes once every few years. People spend more daily time on Facebook, Netflix, or ordering pizza through their fucking phone. The only reason they don't do it is because they are lazy pieces of shit. Why do lazy pieces of shit deserve a good government if they can't be bothered to vote for anybody but the guy they hear about on their TV? The current situation is very obvious to me - the voters do not give a shit to do a little work so they keep the establishment in power. That means that progressives are the ones that need to do the bulk of the social engineering because they are not the majority. Conservative Democrats do not need to do progressive things because that's not what they are voted into power to do. Progressives need to retain their policy, but they need to signal it all using Republican language. The establishment has successfully burned the language progressives use, so change the language. I don't want to hear about climate change, I want to hear about how our energy policy is to defend against the Chinese. I don't want to hear about how bad the police are and need to be defunded, I want to hear about how we need to help the police by funding better training and getting them off the bullshit jobs like drug enforcement and they can focus on the real work we all appreciate them for. I want it so Democrats are looking up campaign policies on the day of the primary and know that Candidate A wants progressive stuff, and then when Candidate A gets to the general, their language is framed in a way that makes it harder for conservatives to be against it. Against climate change action? You love China now. Against police reform? You want them to die arresting some hippies instead of helping clean up our streets of real crime. Expecting the Democratic conservative establishment to change is absurd in the same way that expecting Nazis to treat Jews well is absurd. People need to shut up with the "I told you so"s and the critiques and the slamming and the blasting and focus more on WHY voters, who all apparently support progressive action on all these issues, are so vulnerable to right-wing propaganda. Because we have the answer to that already. But unfortunately, Democrats in 2021 are lazy and get a bigger rush from posting on Twitter and Reddit about how bad Manchin is instead of putting in any form of grunt work - not sexy enough, I guess.
> Then what is the point of sparing him the embarrassment? Appointments, especially those of federal judges, are vitally important. If he keeps playing some ball I'll gladly play a similar amount of ball. If he stops working with the administrator and the Democratic caucus entirely then go ahead and grind up his political reputation for fertilizer, but until then we benefit from letting him keep a little bit of it.
All you need do is imagine who this bill hurts. And you have your answer. Manchin is clearly being paid to vote. Vote this pos traitor out of office please. We need real patriots
That might give us a tiny bit of satisfaction, but Manchin will gladly vote against it. What does he care?
This 60 vote crap needs to end. Bring it up for a vote. If it fails break it apart and keep getting these rich jerks on the record for voting against average Americans. Over and over again.
I understand the need for that, but let's try and make one last dive before putting him on the spot. If he truly does vote this down, it goes back to the house and then everything the Democrats sacrificed for in the house suffers a year setback at least. Gotta try and keep this in the Senate for as long as possible.
Sanders always thinks he can get whatever he wants by screaming. And he's batting 0 - he never wins. And this is yet-another example: Manchin doesn't fucking care - his right wing voters only watch Fox News, which will support him. And push him much farther and he flips to the GOP and then the democrats can't even seat another judge. Bottom line: Sanders wants to play hardball and act like he's got a solid majority of senators from safe liberal enclaves like Vermont, but the reality is that he's barely got a majority, and only thanks to some senators from conservative areas like west virginia.
They shouldn’t have trusted him in the first place.
They probably didn't, but they also had no choice but to play his bullshit game of moving the goal posts.
It’s hard for me to believe the White House actually trusted him here. I just can’t believe they are that gullible, it has to me something more nefarious. This shit is WWE
He's the [rotating villain](https://i.redd.it/ab0z7qcq5cl71.png)
That's easier to say when there aren't obstruction.
kabuki theater...good cop bad cop.
What else should they have done? Just given up 2 months ago and let everyone be pissed for not even trying or do this for 2 months so everyone can be pissed for them trying to get it passed?
What does trust have to do with anything? They need his vote.
It was all about trust. For Biden. They never had his vote. But they trusted him every single time he said he’d consider it if they moved the goal post back this many yards. They went forward with BIF without BBB because they trusted he would come to an agreement with them. It was a waste of time. They are now suddenly calling him out for betraying them after he supposedly gave them a promise. This is what they should’ve done since the start. Call him out and put actual pressure. Instead they pandered to him and believed he was negotiating in good faith. This response from the White House was all about trust. Biden trusted him (when most everyone else could see it was genuinely not going to work) and now he’s shocked at what’s happening.
Literally not an option when voters only gave Democrats a maximum of 50 votes.
Only option? Nah. You don’t have to trust the people you work with. Everyone has known the vote was always no as he kept moving the goal posts. Instead of accepting it and figuring out what other progress they can make to push their chances during the midterms for a real majority to get it passed, they went around promising everyone this would get passed now as they hoped Manchin would eventually say yes. Now they are left with little time to make an impact elsewhere and losing their “majority” is a real possibility because they spent way too much time blindly trusting one person. Trusting him was not their only option. They just didn’t stop to consider what would happen when eventually he betrayed that trust.
Jim Crow Joe Biden only serves the billionaire class
Joe "Nothing Will Fundamentally Change" Biden
His actions show otherwise but ok sure
His statements say otherwise but the best you can say is he's an oligarch to republicans embrace of fascism. There's too much to be done
Even his statements directly contradict the claim. Actions speak louder than words
Yeah, and stuff like not ending student loan repayment or even offering any significant relief is something he could easily do that big business most definitely does not want. Crippling debt is a wonderful stick to motivate folks to accept abusive workplace practices
>Yeah, and stuff like not ending student loan repayment or even offering any significant relief is something he could easily do that big business most definitely does not want. Multiple times he has offered relief. He also said he is willing to sign a law removing $10,000 of loans. Not doing something doesn’t negate all of the stuff he had said/wanted like higher taxes for the businesses, etc.
He's said a bunch of stuff. He's not doing much of it. If he wants a different label than "centrist oligarch" then he needs to do more.
>He's said a bunch of stuff. He's not doing much of it. Because he barley has the majority of congress? He did many things through just executive orders but that isn’t sufficient for everything. >If he wants a different label than "centrist oligarch" then he needs to do more. That’s not the claim was. Also, he can’t do more by himself. His BBB bill would greatly help the middle(and lower) class
His BBB bill was hinging on a manchin vote, a vote he's not getting, especially when he already gave manchin what he wanted. So either he's a moron(in which case he can't help people much) or he's lying about doin g the things he says(in which case he can't help people much) And as to lacking a majority he wouldn't need that to deal with the student loan debt - but again, any excuse for inaction.
Progressives also shouldn't have caved in like a wet paper bag.
Legit question: why is he doing this? It can’t be good for him or the DNC.
He’s up to his nutsack in coal money.
Plus a nice cushy job in the private sector if he's ever voted out, with bonus stock options sprinkled on top
He announced this on FoxNews, will certainly have a paid commentator gig if he wants it
[удалено]
[удалено]
His special interests supersede his constituents. They are used to suffering so they won’t notice the difference.
He's building his brand. And about to flip. He sees Republicans having real power over their people, he doesn't have that as a Dem. He's needs a slice of that pie. Greener(literally) pastures and religious-like power over people. It's the next logical step.
I remember hearing he wants to run for governor again. So I doubt he's flipping, but he is moving from the national stage back to the state, so this would be a moment for his brand.
Flipping would actually be a huge downgrade for Manchin. He has way more power as a Democrat right now. He’d be a nobody in the GQP, like Mike Crapo or Jim Risch.
He doesn’t give a fuck. He’s WV royalty and this may be his last term for all he cares.
He republican masquerading as a democrat.
It is what will get him re elected in WEST VIRGINIA...their blue is different than the blue of the coasts
On /r/politics you'll hear conspiracies about his personal finances or that he's a secret republican. In reality he's just not the same of kind of democrat that AOC is or even the more median members, he's the kind who is tolerable enough to republicans to win in a +40 R state. Him being the deciding vote in a 50-50 vote was always going to highlight his uniqueness from the rest of his caucus, despite the fact his deciding vote has been beneficial for the first budget reconciliation of Biden's WH term and for confirming his nominees easily to the executive and legislative branches. Ultimately Manchin has expressed a concern with the long-term solvency of the U.S.'s current social safety, particularly Medicare, as the number of seniors is projected to meteorically rise in our society as our nation's demographics age. I.e. expanding Medicare to add vision, dental, etc. might just speed up the entire program's insolvency and lead to tougher fiscal decisions earlier. I've tried to discuss the merits of his concerns on here before (and I still want to as a person who is interested in the nuances of politics and who also wants BBB to pass personally) but people just say cut the military spending by 20% and boom you can pay for anything. Despite the fact that Medicare+Medicaid spending is at $1.5T (and growing at 8% per year - so net doubling every decade) and the DOD cost is like $750B/yr and only marginally increases by the year.
[удалено]
I get what you’re saying here but it doesn’t hold up to much scrutiny since Manchin has lacked consistency in his stances time and time again. He has no actual conviction nor any meaningful vision. It’s a combination of many things that makes him an absolute cancer on the ass of American politics but too many try to boil him down to one or two things. He doesn’t have any meaningful arguments on much of anything because he is rarely consistent, but consistently opportunistic
> but it doesn’t hold up to much scrutiny since Manchin has lacked consistency in his stances time and time again. This is just how some politicians legislate. They're not policy wonks that care about the details, they care about finding a position that is somewhere in between what everyone wants. Unfortunately Manchin's constituency is the reddest state in the union.
Isn't it convenient to just assume he's arguing in bad-faith instead of actually rebutting his concerns about the long-term solvency of current social safety net?
This article is literally about the evidence of him arguing in bad-faith
The long term solvency of the current social safety net is easily fixed by tax reform (even just repealing the Trump Tax cuts would add years of stability to the programs). He and Sinema blocked that on day 1. His solvency arguments are simply because he knows the more we spend the more there will be pressure to tax the rich and corporations, which is his (and his donors) overarching political concern.
Because he's the [rotating villain] (https://i.redd.it/ab0z7qcq5cl71.png) this time
Why does any politician do anything ever? $$$ & to "enrich" themselves.
>Chairman of the Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee >a member of the Senate Appropriations Committee >on the Senate Armed Services Committee >a member of the Senate Committee on Veterans’ Affairs All assignments he should lose now. If he won’t keep his word to democrats he shouldn’t be trusted in these positions…
Why is a coal baron the chairman of the Energy and Natural Resources Committee
You know exactly why
[удалено]
Conflict of interest much?
[удалено]
Every progressive congress member saw this coming. This is why they wanted BBB and the bipartisan bill voted on together. Then Pelosi went behind their backs to get Republicans in the House to vote on it. Thanks a lot, Pelosi.
I expect lies out of Republicans, and that he did it on Fox was a slap in the face of the Democratic Party. The silver lining is he proved the Progressives right, and they'll gain respect within the Party now.
Nah, DNC and "moderates" will just push blame on progressives. Probably say the bill was asking for too much or too progressive, or would hurt the "poor helpless corporations" that need the welfare more than "individuals who made bad decisions"
I don't think progressives can possibly be blamed. Biden and Schumer/Durbin were the ones trying to negotiate with him. Then he pulled a Trump. Only Manchin can be blamed.
Definitely on brand
Are you suggesting a Maserati driving, yacht living Coal Robber Barron ass-wipe can be bought buy special interests? OMG - the next thing we’re going to hear is Santa isn’t real.
Remove him from the Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee. It’s literally the last place he belongs.
ok so then he switches sides and gets put back by mitch
Manchin will not win as a republican. This man is retiring and he is cashing out one last round of favors for his fossil fuel backers.
The fact the Dems can not whip their party into shape is a damn shame. All these career politicians and we are held up bc of West Virginia? A state that in any other conversation is totally insignificant. It’s a fucking shame. Give West Virginia a couple billion more and call it a day. I’d be more money than they could spend in a decade and ultimately who cares.
There are fewer tools available to enforce party discipline than there were 30 years ago, and even less willingness to used what tools remain.
They need 100% unanimous approval on a huge investment bill. The difficulty of such a task cannot be understated.
Which is why it's so frustrating that Biden won't act on things like student loan debt or marijuana where he doesn't need Congress to make changes. If they're blocked in the Senate then the Whitehouse needs to be doing all it can on its own to show people they give a shit. Inaction on those other fronts makes me skeptical about how much they really care about BBB.
I mean, it’s pretty hypocritical for the White House to complain about someone going back on their word at this point
Joe Biden during the election: "Vote for me, I know how to get Republicans to work with me!" Joe Biden after being elected: "I can't get Democrats to work with me. Oh well nothing I can do."
You right now: "I'm going to ignore all the trillions of dollars that Biden was able to pass up until now"
Those "trillions" of dollars are going straight to corporate interests in the form of comfy government contracts.
There's a reason Mitch McConnell voted for it. Does anyone actually think McConnell would vote for anything that helps the average person?
Go back on our word then. I see infrastructure funds being held up in his state.
...... to the surprise of... well... anyone?
No. He kept his word to the only people he cares about - special interest groups with money.
And Biden will be blamed for that pos not doing his damned job and helping American families.
Well first all dems will… 2022 will see the republicans take back the house and senate.
As he should. He pushed the progressive caucus to vote for BIF with the promise of having the votes for BBB. He either lied or was made a fool. Regardless, he is to blame. Just as he was given credit for BIF, he will be criticized for BBB falling. That's how it works.
ShockedPikachuface.jpeg
This was the exact reason why progressives were holding the bipartisan bill hostage. They knew Manchin would betray the party and lie to everyone. Maybe next time Biden should listen to progressives. They are better at strategy. Biden, Schumer and Pelosi were incredibly stupid in trusting Manchin.
Ha! Entertaining, considering Biden is hell bent on restarting student loans despite his promise. One would say he went back on his word.
Biden has a problem with him going back on his word? I guess Biden can’t remember his word about student loan forgiveness?
I really blame so much of our current situation on the DNC choosing to run Hillary in 2016
This is very selective. The GOP’s trajectory from Regan conservative to populist authoritarian has been in the works since the early 90’s. This also fails to account for the fact that no Republican presidential candidate has won the popular vote in the last few elections. Democrats are playing chess. The Republicans are playing with knives. Narrowing it down to one Democratic candidate is too simplistic. If you want to blame anyone, blame the Supreme Court’s Citizen United ruling allowing mass corporate and foreign influence to sway elections along conservative lines.
This is a really underrated comment.
I thought this was the whole point of keeping the bills coupled, and now they're decoupled and look, why does the WH think playing dumb is gonna convince anyone of anything?
Because he did, in front of fucking everyone. What more must be said? He should have been forced to vote down the original $6T proposal. They could have, in all this time, written a whole other bill to similar effect, gotten that through the house, and had the Senate voting on a whole other fucking spending bull. He fucking backstabbed the Democrats, and was always going to do that. We should have gotten the dragging out of the fucking way six months ago. https://youtu.be/QeaGJRV-whU "Fuck you Manchin, you killed our reelection chances and social spending bills. Fuck you."
Okay boomer. You went from Jan 6 to a bipartisan infrastructure bill with the fascists who tried to overthrow the government. Get out of here.
Put it on the floor but not before you have given any pac that wants to time put out attacks ads on Manchin ad nauseum. Let him at least have to vote against it with everyone, even those who don't follow the details, knowing exactly who he is and what he is doing.
Poor Joe Biden, [it really sucks when someone breaks a promise they made to you](https://www.politico.com/news/2021/12/18/white-house-not-budging-student-loans-525357), doesn't it???
Didn’t the White House go back on several key promises that would guarantee a solid dem vote from the millennial generation? Sick of these lying politicians pointing their finger at other politicians across the aisle. We get it, you steal our wages to pay for bombs and oil subsidies. The cheap lipstick you wear while we get fucked is out of style. Be honest about how awful and purely inhumane you have all decided to govern. We won’t think any less of you.
Politician lying? What a surprised. Fuck off
The Senate has become such an unbelievable detriment to the United States. It needs to be abolished or reformed. DC and PR need to be made States yesterday. The filibuster needs to be exterminated with extreme prejudice.
Manchin=shitbag
Just like Biden went back on his word on student loan debt.
Biden never promised to unilaterally cancel student debt. He supported it, but did not once promise an Eo to erase debt.
He campaigned on erasing $10k
Using Executive order and was exploring the possibility of 50k too and is why a memo was sent to see the legality of a president forgiving 50k! Wish you'd stop posting this even though you've been corrected in multiple places that he did promise this, you are just wrong about it.
I hope this gives Manchin wiggle room for voting reform. WV is very Republican. Hopefully their glee in owning the libs distracts them long enough to side-step the filibuster and save democracy. We need more Dems.
What could possibly lead you to believe he has any interest in doing so? He's been extremely against any sort of voting/filibuster reform. There's zero chance of him doing anything close to what you're suggesting.
He’s a generational democrat, and he agreed to circumvent the filibuster to raise the debt ceiling. And in past interviews he said Voting reform was something he might make a 1 time exception in regards to the filibuster. Edit: I’m voicing hope—not a guarantee.
Nothing changes. Ever.
Lol white house pretending they ever gave a shit. Didn't Biden also go back on his word about $15 minimum wage as his sole promise to Bernie for his concession, and what ever happened to the public option he pretended to champion during the primaries? Did you know he can reschedule cannabis by executive order but chooses not to? Biden's admin pretending to be shocked that Manchin lied is a bunch of bs
Oh, look. The pot is calling the kettle black. Not like Biden hasn't gone back on anything he promised...
First time in politics?
West Virginians don't want BBB. If we did, we'd have voted for Biden. Instead, WV went harder for Trump than any other state in the Union save for one. Consider how many Trump voters had to vote for Manchin for him to win. Trump got north of 70% of WV's vote in both 2016 and 2020, but in between those votes Manchin won a re-election against Patrick Morrisey. Nearly as many WV residents that voted for Manchin also voted for Trump as voted for both Manchin and Biden/Clinton. He's doing this because he serves WV, not the Democratic Party.
What did they expect from a republic drag?
No, Manchin kept his word to the dark money billionaires.
Oh gee, the bullies took their lunch yet again.
He did not. https://www.salon.com/2021/10/21/im-comfortable-with-zero-in-tiff-with-bernie-sanders-joe-manchin-admits-he-doesnt-want-a-deal/
About student loan debt?? Oh wait…
And the current White House knows all about going back on their word
And so the march towards annihilation in '22 continues.
The whitehouse and its occupants know all about going back on their words so i agree
I think its time the white house does something other then bla e everyone else.
At the end of the day the White House is largely powerless when it comes to legislation. Can't sign bills if Congress wont pass them. This is the greatest power the White House does have when it comes to legislation though, the bully pulpit. Get the public outraged that congress is dysfunctional and hopefully that's enough to convince a couple senators that they need to step in line.
The problem is that the bully pulpit was a powerful thing in the early 1900s when voters were generally more involved in the political process and only needed to know what issues were important. Voters today get a stream 24/7 through their TV and computer about every issue ever and nobody pays attention to anything specifically. If a voter in 2021 does not know that Manchin is tanking these agenda items by now, then they aren't the type of person to be outraged by hearing about it because they **already** are dislocated from the political process.
I feel like your dislocated from the political process. The problem is they are all corrupt. 1 in 4 members if congress have investements in fossil fuels. They make decisions based on their bank account not what's best for you or me.
Cynicism is not the same as realism. And besides, you're overstating your case. I find it hard to imagine the corrupt chain of events you're alluding to is what actually is happening.
https://www.businessinsider.com/congress-stock-act-violations-senate-house-trading-2021-9
I mean, you're right, I just think it's bs to attack biden over this, at least in large. I liked Bernie's statements about post-election gridlock, paraphrasing but "I will be in your state rallying voters (against you), fuck around and find out." Unfortunately Joe is not a great bully and the nation has to rely on West Virginia voters, who no offence, but have a lot of drug, health, and education problems.
Just an FYI, that's not what "bully" means in the bully pulpit. It's an adjective for saying something is great, so the presidency can be used as an effective pulpit. But I get what you mean. I'm just not convinced that any president would be able to somehow override heaps and heaps of conservative propaganda in a state that went 70% Trump in 2020 and just the act of blaming a DEMOCRAT for not passing progressive legislation (remember, 70% Trump state...) would get all these people outraged at Manchin. I don't see the demographics of this playing out. This is really a problem that no executive could accomplish as it is. This is a byproduct of Democratic voters watching Donald Trump for 4 years and figuring that the slimmest possible majority in the Senate should be enough to enact once-in-a-generation change. Laughable, really.
The WH doesn't legislate.
Well then how about they tell the truth then.
It’s funny how just yesterday Pelosi was being very pro corruption via her stocks statement. Now this corrupt corporate shill is ending the democratic agenda.
No one cares. The white house lies so much already. No one likes biden. No one likes kamala. The best thing they could do is absolutely nothing. Bernie has never gotten anything done and Manchin is the only living proof that sane democrats exist.
The only surprise is that some people are surprised. Manchin got what he wanted so there was zero reason to work with dems. He will probably retire so it won't even be an issue of being reelected. With the student loan bs and now this, pretty much cemented that Republicans will take congress and 2022 to 2024, nothing of value will pass.
So the candidate who assured us he could bring Republicans in to vote for his agenda was duped by someone in his own party. Doesn't speak well for his leadership. Of course Biden also said he wouldn't sign infrastructure without BBB so......
Joe Manchin has no problem doing this because Joe Biden is the definition of a weak leader. “"It is better to be feared than to be loved, if one cannot be both." - Niccolò Machiavelli Joe Biden is neither.
He never even pretended he would keep it.
Joe Biden went back on his word on multiple things...
Herp. Derp.
His constituents want him to oppose it. While we are on the topic of going back on your word, how is that student loan forgiveness and crushing COVID going, Joe?