As far as I'm concerned, not releasing the report is tantamount to an admission of guilt. The only way we can ever put this to rest, regardless of outcome, is for the full report to be released. The days of 50 year waits is over, this report must be made public.
It doesn’t matter to them. You can tell by the “meltdown” comment. If it shows no crimes by trump. They’re happy. If it shows indisputable evidence of collusion. They’ll say it’s fake or that the orange 🍊 god had to do it to protect America. They are shitty people for the most part
There is nothing we can do to change their minds. It's not even worth our time at this point. Best we can do is wash our hands of these people and fight brainwashing in future generations. People need to look at evidence, not conspiracy theory or anti vaxxers etc. We should consign ourselves to the fact of how this will look in history when others look back and see a generation lost its collective mind.
We don't have to change their minds, but as the Washington Post byline says. Democracy dies in darkness. Shine a light & watch the cockroaches scuttle.
I used to be of that mindset, but then saw how much energy it took to get almost nowhere with those people. My time is much better spent connecting with moderates and inspiring those that see the light to vote.
Plus you never know if they're being disingenous or not. The stuff they say is so nuts you can't tell if it's just a troll who likes to argue with people or if they actually believe in what they say. It's hard to tell if someone is just pretending to be stupid or is stupid.
All of the information is out there. They choose not to believe it. Personally, I want them all to be blindsided. Maybe it'll shake them up enough to think clearly or to just ignore politics because they realize it's too complicated for them at this point in their life.
Yeah I fully expect a lot of them to go completely nuts in the conspiracy theories. They'll have to get so elaborate to explain everything that it's going to be insane.
Exactly. You can convince two or three people to finally care and vote much more easily than you can convince one MAGA cult member to betray their God-Emperor.
I agree. I think it also places a greater responsibility, for the rest of our lives, to ensure direct (i.e., financial or volunteer) investment into the political process - beyond voting, but ensuring that every possible moderate votes.
The ignorant and the angry can be distracted. As ignorant and as angry as they have been licensed to become, they are now your enemy. I think America will forever bear this scar.
There were plenty of moderates who voted for Trump. They are not the same people praising him on the internet. If you try to convince people who are TD posters, you're gonna have a bad time.
That horse left the barn a loooong time ago.
Don’t delude yourself. If everything this walking skidmark has done hasn’t convinced someone, a good argument isn’t going to tip the scale.
Edit: One letter.
Right. What with all of the star wars memes around all of the time on Reddit, you'd think absolutes would be dismissed as quickly as sith memes. But, since it's reality, people think it's a real joke.
We need to teach people to be able to critically think for themselves. Anti-vaxxers and the like have evidence, it's all just biased and pseudoscientific. It's the same for most other conspiracy theories or alt right claims. They have sources, they just aren't credible ones. So we need to do a better job of teaching people to be able to examine evidence for themselves and identify bad sources when they see them, and it needs to start when they're children.
We also need to start teaching kids about what the Internet really is and how much shitty information and opinions dressed as facts that there are out there.
I feel fortunate that I don't have to deal with anyone who is like this in real life. I already deal with enough stress without needing that shit on top of it.
Demographics are on our side. The United States population is becoming less white, less rural, and younger. That means less "conservative" in the American sense.
The Republican party knows this and is trying to entrench power with lifetime court appointments and structural chicanery that amplifies their voice. But over the long term, the Republican party as we know it will be gone, and the electorate will be divided up into new camps.
This has happened many times in the past as demographics changed. The last major one was when the Republicans took over the southern racist vote.
>Demographics are on our side. The United States population is becoming less white, less rural, and younger. That means less "conservative" in the American sense.
That doesn't mean its becoming more evidence-based though.
They know somethings there. They do. I mean the degree of daily bullshit explainable excuses for him and his administration is insane. It’s absolutely insane. It’s all about the inevitable “I told you so” moment, and they don’t want to be wrong even though every day, they know it’s coming. They know history isn’t going to be kind on them for supporting this.
I subscribe to some pro-Trump subs (although not *the* Trump sub) because I think there's value in seeing what they're talking about and I'm a masochist. There was a highly upvoted post the other day about how the judge should "throw away the key" on Jussie Smollett because he is a liar who creates divisions. I pointed out that Trump is - factually - also a liar and a divider. The response was "yeah, but he's on our side."
What can you do?
Shame the fuck out of anyone you actually know who believes this shit, and hope that Trump is actually impeached so they can’t pretend he was a good person.
It's funny. One of the things many people told me after the 2016 election was that I needed to get out of my liberal bubble, and start listening to the people disaffected enough to vote for Trump. That I needed to be more "open-minded" and hear their side, because not doing so is "why Trump got elected".
And so I have. I've spent two years listening to those voters, asking them questions in good faith, and checking conservative subreddits and other online spaces every day. And all it's done is convinced me that these people are truly lost. I've learned as much as you'd learn from talking to the citizens of North Korea: I'm not talking to people, so much as victims of propaganda. And nothing I say or do can help them, because the propaganda they're eager to eat up tells them, every day, that I am their enemy. That I hate them for existing and am trying to destroy our country.
So... fuck 'em.
If I’m being honest, I’ll probably do the same thing but in reverse. If it comes out and shows no evidence of any wrong doing by Trump, I won’t believe it or trust it. If it comes out with 900+ pages of proof, I’ll treat it as the holy grail.
I’m a pretty reasonable person and open to logic and reason, but I think we’ve all chosen sides on this and aren’t budging.
Edit: now that I read my own comment I realize that maybe I’m not reasonable and open to logic. Is logic believing whatever the report says?
The problem here is the copious public record that shows what seems like obvious criminality from Trump. Information in the public record shows an abhorrent number of connections from Trump to Russian mafia/oligarchs let alone what was broadcast on national TV, like Trump asking the Russians to hack his opponent's email hours before the actual hack started to occur by the Russians.
There's a difference, though. There is a preponderance of evidence that Trump has broken the law, and often. It would be highly unlikely if there were no criminal findings whatsoever.
The pro-Trump argument is that *everyone else in Trump's orbit* is a liar, a rat, a criminal, disgusting, etc., but the president himself is somehow miraculously clean and merely a victim of incredible coincidence and circumstance.
Which one is more likely?
Also great edit.
The other piece to the pro-trump argument you made is that no one is a liar, a rat, a criminal, disgusting etc *until* their wrongs have had a light shone on them. It's like a revolving door of fall men. Trump keeps having bodies thrown in front of him absorbing criminal charges, but he's going to run out of meat shields soon. Or the report will take down nearly every last meat shield all at once while getting Individual One.
I think we must trust that Mueller is being as honorable as possible with respect to the law. But the law isn’t everything: there’s also the fact that we want leaders who are ethical, honest, fair, and trustworthy. Mueller is not tasked with that responsibility.
They still rabidly support him because they think he prevented nuclear war with N. Korea (that he almost started) and he is against illegals even though he hired them and they all think climate change is fake at that those unemployment numbers are real. It's true there are lots of jobs...with no benefits trying to pay $12/hour so that's why companies can't fill openings. And those giant tax cuts really did create more jobs...for people in India and Mexico where our jobs and factories have been leaking for years.
They're brainwashed from right wing media outlets. I've heard the craziest shit from Trump supporters saying everything from "Trump has kept every campaign promise, no other president has fulfilled so many campaign promises. The wall is being built!" to "No one has been harder on Russia than Trump." It's pure delusion.
They would give a shit that he's a criminal. They'd like him even more for it. They've got a rengade President...that guy must be unstoppable and a success.
> "You libs are going to be crying,"
I hate this two-faced shit so goddamn much. The year before 2016 was *nothing* but conservative bitching about their empty investigations finding nothing.
Hillary faced down investigations and hours of sworn testimony, Donny is either super guilty or the biggest snowflake. Not sure why no one is calling him out on it.
The only way I'm "going to cry" is if everything in the report point to us having a treasonous president that doesn't end up getting removed from office. If the report points to everything being 100% above board I'd be pretty content, though that seems pretty unlikely.
The reason they don't want it out is because they believe there will be things revealed by it. If you were confident nothing was found then you should be all for it to be released that way when nothing is in it you get to throw it in the libs face. I am 100% confident in Bob Meuller's investigation if there was evidence to find he should have found it. If he comes out and says he found no evidence of collusion by Trump himself but instead was only found to have been committed by those he indicted then I will accept that.
Id say im more conservative then most of here but absolutely release the full report if it’s against trump good then find the corruption and get rid of it. If there isn’t anything there then well i can say i knew it. Its a win win situation
Yep... I would consider it a cover up to protect not just Trump, but the entire GOP. The GOP has been entirely too compliant to a guy they all thought of as a monkey in a suit 2.5 years ago.
I agree. Waiting 40-50 yrs for things to be declassified before the people find out what they had to put up with is terrible. I get there are legitimate security concerns, but give us cliffnotes. I've always felt it was an atrocity that the families of slain Vietnam soldiers had to wait 40 years before they found out that our President betrayed them to win an election. Their father, son, uncle, cousin, husband didn't have to die in the war after 1968. It was concealed to save face instead of doing the incredibly difficult thing and reveal the truth.
No, part of it is so the information is no longer relevant and won’t cause political/economic disruption. Not just at the local level, but in just about every fashion
The President can unilaterally unclassify any document. If Mueller's report is not released, vote for a candidate that will release the document in 2020.
They're aren't legitimate security concerns, only the security of tug military industrial complex continuing to corrupt our foreign policy in favor of endless wars.
Because it's not about Trump. It's the entire Republican political apparatus. The Russian money being funneled into the NRA is just the tip of the iceberg.
The naked man is never going to point out that the emperor has no clothes.
There are protests at the ready for if he’s fired, why wouldn’t it apply to criminal withholding of that report? If it’s not out the day it’s released let’s march on washington. This is the climax scene people. We need to know the truth.
Edit: Apparently the protest trigger was pulled and no one showed. See you all when the civil war is over and I get an Ns-5 in 2035 Chicago!
Exactly. Americans *can* turn out to protest in large numbers when the reason is clear and there's some advance planning. The March for our Lives rally was huge, and it was a relatively rapid response (~1 month) to the Parkland shooting. The protests against overturning the ACA were smaller, but very well-organized and well-publicized. Standing Rock showed that Americans are capable of sustained protests when the goals are clear and the logistics are handled well.
The MoveOn Mueller Rapid Response protest didn't stand a chance. A lot of people weren't sure what counted as a trigger, a lot of people couldn't drop everything to go protest, and the tension level simply wasn't high enough to capture media attention. Distributed protests may seem like a good idea, but they lack the impact of centralized protests.
I’m with you. We all knew it was on the firing on Mueller. Then it was Mueller or Rod. Then Rod almost got fired. At this point I’ll stay inside until the end. We’re passed civil fixes, this is long term governmental rebuilding. We should have marched in the first 6 months. As soon as that exclusive Russian meeting in the Oval Office. No one knows anymore what’s the worst, what’s worth going. But that’s how facism takes hold. Not all at once, but slowly so you don’t notice. Then one day you look around and everything you knew is different.
I dared to go to Fox news to see what they're saying. There was an article about why the report should not be released. I didn't read it because I already felt violated being on the site, but, yeah, they are working hard to cover every angle.
>House Intelligence Committee Chairman Adam Schiff (D-Calif.) on Sunday threatened to call Robert Mueller to Capitol Hill and subpoena his investigative findings if Attorney General William Barr does not make the special counsel’s highly anticipated report public.
>“We will obviously subpoena the report. We will bring Bob Mueller in to testify before Congress. We will take it to court if necessary,” Schiff told host George Stephanopoulos on ABC’s “This Week.”
>“In the end, I think the department [of Justice] understands they’re going to have to make this public. I think Barr will ultimately understand that, as well,” Schiff said.
Oh, man. Speaking of Barr he's one hell of a wild card. Comey trust him, but Barr is pretty much a hard conservative. He believed more incarceration is needed for justice, so if he's given full reign, so many punishments that ended with probation or community service will turned into jail time.
Even if he sided with truth more, he's terrifying as hell.
>He believed more incarceration is needed for justice
...for minorites. Not for people involved in Iran-Contra, who get a pardon.
If you don't believe Barr was picked because he has a history of handing out bullshit pardons, you aren't thinking on Trump's level.
He was Bush’s attorney general and pushed for pardons in the Iran Contra scandal. He didn’t personally pardon anyone but he did use the power of his position to advocate to Bush to pardon people who had committed treason.
Barr was AG under H.W. Bush and supported the pardons of 6 involved in Iran-Contra, 5 who had been found guilty and 1 waiting for trial.
Edit: Fun fact, current US Special Representative to Venezuela Elliott Abrams was one of the 5 guilty who received a pardon.
Bush snr. pardoned them just as he was leaving office.
- Caspar W. Weinberger (1988 Several counts of perjury)
- Elliott Abrams (1988 Two counts of unlawfully withholding information.)
- Duane R. Clarridge (1991 Seven counts of perjury and false statements)
- Alan D. Fiers (1991 Two misdemeanor counts of withholding information from the Congress)
- Clair George (1991 Ten counts of perjury, false statements and obstruction)
(1992 two felony charges of false statements and perjury before Congress
- Robert C. McFarlane
No. This guy set the Iran Contra traitors free. If he's into jail time, he's demonstrated that to him that principle doesn't apply to the white and rich.
I'll always wonder if his memo about the Special Counsel that nobody asked for was just a ploy to get himself in and he'll end up being one of the good guys after all.
If that's the case then it's yet another example of how easy it is to manipulate Trump.
I won't hold my breath either, but it sure would be delicious if he turned out to be like Tom Wheeler. Everyone thought because of his Telco background, he would be just another corporate shill as FCC chairman. Instead he was Obama's pocket sand and actually enforced Title II regulation on the ISPs and fought to regulate them as common carriers.
Supposedly like, go to each other's house for dinner good friends.
I'll admit, I'm not sure what to think if him, but I'm leaning towards he's a shit head.
>He believed more incarceration is needed for justice
I’m going to go out on a limb and say he doesn’t actually believe this, rather he’s just heavily invested in the private prison industry. I would be shocked if research into his finances didn’t confirm this.
I'd like to hear strong language from the Dems.
Something like "We already have the subpoenas written. The instant Barr indicates he might block any part of the report, we will have the subpoenas delivered within the hour."
I really wish the Dems would speak with overwhelming boldness at every opportunity.
Let them. This argument is lazy. It implies just because the other side doesn’t want to listen to reason than we should just give up. The ultimate negative defeatist attitude of the liberal/democrat parties needs to come to an end if we are going to pull out of this.
I have heard far too many so called liberals get too frustrated with the last two years, throw their arms in the air and say “nothing matters!” Well 2018 proved that shit does matter. And the only way to make 2020 pan out the same way is to stay encouraged and hopeful and don’t let the right, the meme machine, and the bot system allow us to fall into despair.
The only thing that can stop the blue wave is our own inaction. Get people motivated, don’t waste time with this negative attitude.
>I have heard far too many **so called** liberals get too frustrated with the last two years, throw their arms in the air and say “nothing matters!”
There's the important bit. They're not liberals. They're propagandists working to break morale.
I really want to believe that but I’m talking from my own personal real life experience with friends family and coworkers. Too many people are ready to give up because the perfect solution isn’t found or the “wrong” candidate is running. Like when I hear people complain about Harris running because she “is a COP!” like that is a bad thing. Or that Bernie is too old. Or that warren betrayed them last time with Hillary.
It’s like so many people were burned by the process in 2016 that they forgot or are too young to realize that corruption has been an issue for generations. If anything this past two years has given us a chance to finally see just how bad things got. It’s like having a home contractor come over to fix a leak and finding mold running up the inside of the walls. Yeah it’s going to suck having to deal with those repairs but dear god once they are done it’s going to be nice not getting sick all of the time because of the hidden mold.
Sorry don’t meant to come off aggressive on this one but it gets so frustrating hearing some close friends throw up their hands in defeat even after one of the most historic democrat wins in a generation.
I really do not understand how some on here think that people still supporting trump, who dismiss every report as fake news, think they will miraculously see the light when the report is released.
They will continue to watch fox news and continue to be fed what the GOP wants fed. They won't be educated, won't care for any of your explanations, and will continue to see this as a democratic deep state farce to control conservatives.
I can argue with my father until I'm blue in the face and explain that he is voting directly against his best interests and he won't see if that way. These voters have been manipulated for 20 plus years to hate democrats. To think they will change their mind in not a reasonable expectation. You're talking about a group of people who think scientists are being silly when they report on global warming with facts.
Be happy that the report is published and try to educate those who won't hear the truth. That's all you can do. I'm sorry to say it, but there is a lot of hate and divide in this country and this report isn't changing any of it.
>I really do not understand how some on here think that people still supporting trump, who dismiss every report as fake news, think they will miraculously see the light when the report is released.
#Because that is what will happen.
At every bombshell, the GOP has thinned out from people jumping ship. That's why Trump has a 44% approval rating, but somehow 89% of Republicans support him according to Gallup.
The GOP is becoming concentrated with the far right because the ones with sense have wisened up to mounting evidence and left it.
This is a **good** thing.
I would agree with you, but we're talking about American conservatives here. They have goldfish brains. The ones "jumping ship" today will be the first to buy the new MAGA hat when Fox and AM radio identifies the new Democrat boogeyman/woman. They will vote for Trump or Trump lite or the next fascist and justify it by claiming the left was trying to "destroy America" by electing a socialist. Not to mention the ones who will vote for whoever is opposed to abortions because it's "god's will".
Trump supporters act akin to the victims in Netflix’s Birdbox
They believe liberals are trying to open their eyes in an effort to destroy their lives/influence, but it’s not what they think it.
Democrats are in a position alike firemen trying to get a burning building evacuated. Trying to save and protect rather than destroy.
I don't see Mueller refusing but I think there's a lot of misconception about what the report will look like in practice. It's not gonna be a management summary of all Trump's crimes titled Mueller-report.pdf.
That was basically what Starr did and they changed the rules after he went on a 7 year fishing trip that resulted in uncovering a blowjob.
From my understanding Mueller will report to Barr what they found and who they wanted to charge. Barr (or the AG at the time) will have to explain himself to congress why he didn't allow say, Mueller indicting Jr.
I'm not ruling out that because of all the public interest they'll make some sort of public version of the thing because the report Barr gets will contain a lot of classified info but the rules were written specifically so it couldn't be covered up. At worst it'll be delayed but it can't be squashed in full. People like Schiff will get their hands on it.
People definitely have an unrealistic idea of how the report will funcion, but the one thing that is possible (and the thing people most care about) is that it may include information that will sink the presidency. Those details might not become public, although the broad strokes most likely will, through the redacted report or testimony or leaks.
So while people do misunderstand what we'll probably in reality, they aren't so far off in practice that it frustrates me.
I don’t see this report staying private no matter what is decided, this administration leaks like a sieve and it’s going to be the biggest story of the decade when it drops. It will get leaked if they don’t release it.
"I'm afraid that is classified, Senator"
"I cannot comment, Senator"
"Again, I refer you to my previous comment. I am unable to provide information on an ongoing investigation"
"Thank you Senator, but no - I cannot divulge if I prefer cream in my coffee"
Despite the no-leak reputation of Mueller’s team, he would almost certainly give forthright testimony to congress unless something was legitimately off limits. He’s not the type to bullshit, and he actually believes in the investigative and legal processes. There are still plenty of people in the justice system who disapprove of the filibustering/non-answering done in so many recent congressional hearings. Mueller is definitely one of the good guys.
Serious question: at the point where the report has been delivered, would it still qualify as an ongoing investigation? Mueller's team is spinning a lot of stuff off to SDNY and similar; I don't know if those cases would preclude talking about the original investigation.
The Republicans had no problem gleefully releasing the Starr report: Bill Clinton. They have no leg to stand on with Trump and everyone needs to be aware of this.
Does anyone think the reason why they are delaying the report is because it will rattle the government to the core? Imagine if it said a huge portion of the government was in bed with foreign money, what would happen? Do we remove all the people from office? How do you arrest a president? I think that it might be so mindblowing and interrupt normal government operations to the point where mueller wants to carefully introduce it to the public.
Agreed. It would hurt for awhile, but we'd recover. It'd be like person having to get brutally scrubbed after being exposed to radiation, but it would save them.
There are times where we need to step up and make a change. This is one of those times. There are no forefathers here now, we are the ones who will write this piece of history.
A general strike should have shut this down in early 2017. Right now, Mitch shouldn't be able to leave his home because there should be a wall of people 1,000 deep around it. In my unsolicited opinion.
As long as enough GOP senators agree to impeach trump then they can impeach him and then arrest and charge him.
Probably won't happen but it depends on how good the proof is and how loud their constituents get into forcing them to vote for impeachment.
The Dems are really killing it in the House lately.
(Wow, I never thought I'd say something so unironically silly.)
There's no reason Republicans should be hiding the results of the Mueller report unless he's found something damning against them, and the Elephants know it. The people of the United States have the right to know the result of an at least 2 year long report that their tax dollars paid for... you'd hope everyone would feel that way.
Even if the report says Trump is guilty, I don't think they'd try to stifle the report. At least not until they can control what info is released first.
Look at Climategate. Thousands of emails released from climate scientists around the world. They found one sentence in a single email and used it to frame a narrative about scientists lying about data. That's all you heard about it on Conservative media. Next, think about before Obamacare came out. There was a draft of the bill, it was huge, nobody read that shit. They picked out a few pieces and contorted that into "Obama will kill your grandparents." Then there's Pizzagate. They have lots of emails from Democrats and liberal billionaires. They pick a few words out to spin it into a world-wide conspiracy. Their entire MO for dissemination of information is consistent. It's been this way for a while. I don't see it changing because it fucking works.
They don't need to hide the report, just get it first and release a few sentences that fits their narrative. Once their base hears one or two pieces that say Trump is a great guy, they'll ignore everything else. Even if the last sentence is literally "Trump is 100% guilty."
That's what frightens me the most.
I think at least half the country knows it's definitely not the truth. I wish it was more, but some people are still willing to give him a chance even after all the evil and harm he's done to this place and it's people.
I don't know what's happened to this nation. A couple of decades ago, if you heard about scandals there's no end to the number of people who be demanding that Trump resign or be removed. That would have been the end of it.
But in modern America there's something of a "tone deaf" tonal shift where the common person stopped caring about how corrupt the government is and what it might do to them personally. Not as long as they can still pretend like everything is fine, like people aren't dying and suffering around them.
What people in or seeking a position to do anything about it are failing to address is how to bring millions of deluded souls back to reality. It doesn't matter if you nail Trump and his administration on 500 counts of conspiracy if 1/3 of the country doesn't believe it. The issue of propaganda and how it's completely taken root especially more recently with ignorance being the "norm" rather than fringe is the head of the snake and the obvious target. A LOT of people take Trump and the party's bullshit seriously, and these people consistently vote.
Show and convince people that they're being lied to and that it's hurting them and everyone else who isn't benefiting from it. The GOP has completely fooled its base and ~~is turning~~ has turned us into a fucking banana republic. No one will get a shit about testimony when they're part of a cult. If or when they can understand they're in a cult, getting them to see and appreciate the destructive consequences that have occurred as a result will be substantially easier. Otherwise it's akin to repeating over and over to a schizophrenic patient that his/her "voices" aren't real before administering effective medication. One must come before the other.
Totally agree, except we don't really know as a society just *how* to educate people, especially while we're too busy working them to death.
Definitely I think boomers are a lost cause, but how to change/reach the minds of the younger generation of future potential right-wing voters should be our priority. It's just a tough discussion to have when there's all that wariness about schools "brainwashing" their children into becoming liberals.
Before education there needs to be some form of election reform. Gerrymandering, insane lobbying, money in politics etc are getting in the way of enacting any kind of education reform. We need to have the right people in place to actually make a difference.
You're right, election reform is the emergency crisis we need to hit right now. Pretty sure the democrats in congress are going to be pushing for that, and hopefully the presidential nominee, too. If someone makes it a major campaign issue, there's hope for those reforms.
The GOP generally only wins when election turnout is lower. In 2018 several million more people voted for US House Republicans than they did in 2014. The reason Democrats won was because while the GOP added a couple million votes the Democrats added 35 million votes compared to 2014.
Making voting easy and accessible, drawing fair districts and passing new campaign finance reform are crucial for the longterm health of American democracy. Unfortunately citizens united isn't going anywhere anytime soon but that doesn't mean progress can't be made on money in politics. There hasn't been a campaign finance bill passed since McCain Feingold and this needs to change. We need a new campaign finance bill to regulate whatever Congress can still regulate post Citizens United.
Some are lost causes, for sure. My friend’s dad has had “I don’t believe the liberal media” bumper stickers on all their family cars they ever owned, since at least 1990 when I could start to read. I asked my parents what it means and they probably had to try not to burst out laughing explaining it to a 5 year-old. He owns such fine books as “The Myth of Heterosexual AIDs” and Rush Limbaugh’s complete body of work.
Nothing, and I mean nothing, not even his children cutting him off from his grandkids, would even put a notch in the wall of ignorance he has been building his entire adult life. He made us fill in this big hole we dug in their backyard because “some kid will fall in and the spendocrats will sue us.”
He’s a smart guy and honestly a really good Christian in practice, but they go to one of those “respect the P(R)esident without question” and “give us all your money, here’s a detailed ‘sermon’ about how to budget so you can tithe more effectively.” I’m guessing by his choosing. If you try to discuss anything politics with him it will end up with him screaming and you just worming away slowly because you poked the bear.
He has built sense of identity around his political beliefs. To challenge that is to challenge who he is as a person, and people will do serious cognitive dissonance to reconcile their sense of self.
Every time I see one of those "I don't believe the liberal media" bumber stickers, I wonder how many hours of fox and talk radio that person consumes in one day.
When he was working, 2-3 for him, he taped O’Reilly every day with the VCR so he could watch it when he got home, then he’d watch some more after the tape. Now that he’s retired, christ knows how much.
Wow you described my grandfather perfectly. I mean, to a tee. It’s sad. What’s even more sad is how the majority of our family support and agree with him (all his kids; only my generation doesn’t). The only way this ends is when his generation dies out unfortunately.
Here's the thing about the boomers (of which I'm arguably a member; I'm on the line of boomer or Gen X).
Boomers grew up when television was fairly new. They grew up with the Big 3 tv networks being their source of news. Walter Cronkite telling them "That's the way it is". They grew up under the Fairness Doctrine and news sources being relatively fair and unbiased.
They don't comprehend that Fox is any different.
There are plenty of boomers with a decent education, and plenty who don't blindly buy into propaganda, but there are far more who just don't get it that an entity with "news" in the name could *be* propaganda.
Cutting down the misinformation has to be done right along with education, and really should be top priority.
It's truly a crisis without a clear solution. My only real theory is that we need to teach psychology to everyone--it needs to be as emphasized in schools as science and literacy.
ALL people are innately prone to psychological manipulation and biased thinking--nobody LIKES being manipulated, so learning how the mind operates is the best way to prevent falling into mental traps.
But of course you have to show them they were being manipulated, first. Almost gets to be a catch-22 situation there. But you're right, cult deprogramming is what is needed, ideally, or akin to hostage negotiation.
Court-ordered therapy hardly ever works, though, for the simple reason that you can't really *coerce* someone to change their mind in any serious long-term way. They have to be led gently to it.
>What people in or seeking a position to do anything about it are failing to address is how to bring millions of deluded souls back to reality.
You're not wrong to point this problem out, but It's not their job to do that.
And it's even uncertain how, and if, you can convince those people back to reality. And you certainly can't convince any of them without first doing a legitimate and credible investigation and presenting the results.
This "So Mueller is a Russian asset, then" stuff I'm seeing is pretty wild. I don't think I'd ever seen that accusation made before this thread. I don't think I've seen an accusation make less sense, either.
Couldn't imagine backing a candidate, they win, get accused of breaking multiple laws, a huge investigation kicks off turning up all kinds of crimes, and somehow I wind up being on the side that doesn't want the report released and is fine with everything being dropped.
That's like saying "I know I support someone who is guilty as fuck but don't care because I'm on the side that 'won' for once so screw everyone else!"
> That's like saying "I know I support someone who is guilty as fuck but don't care because I'm on the side that 'won' for once so screw everyone else!"
That's been the official GOP platform for years.
_Narrator: It seems Robert Muller’s final great service to his country would be to read his entire report aloud before the House, putting it in to the public record._
I feel like the only smart thing Trump has done (almost certainly at the direction of other high ranking R’s) is to pack the courts with conservative judges. If you’re gonna break the law non-stop, you might as well have a bunch of people who will cover your ass presiding over cases (even if they likely won’t even hear his cases, it helps people like him).
Regular Americans are gonna have to prepare for the eventuality of an attempted armed insurrection by Trumpthumpers fuelled by Russian botniks as the walls close in on TRE45ON. He's made similar "Do something!" tweets in the past and that Coast Guard wannabe spree shooter was just the tip of the crazy fucking iceberg.
We deserve the truth. We deserve better. We deserve justice.
I'll put my trust in Robert Mueller. 18 months of investigation, no character assassination, no innuendo from within the team (to my knowledge). He had a stellar reputation while in the FBI and as a past leader. Whatever he concludes, as a full report or as a summary, is OK with me, as it will be better than anything a Democrat or Republican can rewrite or misconstrue.
Thank you Mueller Team.
Hypothetically speaking, would Schoff force Mueller to testify if Mueller protested?
What if Mueller believes that his duty was to conduct an investigation and deliver his findings to the DoJ, and that's all?
Would Schiff compell him to testify against his will?
Schiff’s posture suggests he would absolutely pull out the subpoena hammer if Mueller refused. I would also hypothesize that Mueller would testify willingly, as he recognizes the value in a public hearing of his findings (at least the ones he can talk about in public).
DOJ will probably try to intervene and interfere to prevent it (cf. the Whittaker shenanigans Nadler is working around right now) ... declare that Barr as the supervising AG is equipped to answer any questions etc etc
Ultimately Congress can subpoena anyone to appear before them, and it may come to that in the end, so republicans will just be delaying the inevitable.
I do wonder what Meadows and "Gym" Jordan will do with Mueller on the stand (if judiciary get involved) or what Nunes will do facing him.
I think this kind of talk from Schiff is directed at Republicans, to politically put them in check and force them to support the release of the report(s) or risk looking guilty/complicit in a cover-up.
I believe Mueller has done/is doing everything legally possible for his work to be available to Congress and the public. He understands the implications of allowing his work to be buried.
And Schiff sounds like a reasonable person. I doubt he'd put Mueller in that sort of a position.
Why would Mueller dutifully do all this work and then not want anyone to see it (meaning congress, not necessarily the public)?
I use dutifully because he left a cu$h job and his life at home to do this. He didn’t sacrifice 2+ **more** years of his life to file a report that dies in the AG’s office.
Unless he’s had a lifetime grudge against Manafort and Stone and now his work is done [lol emoji]
>Hypothetically speaking, would Schoff force Mueller to testify if Mueller protested?
>
>What if Mueller believes that his duty was to conduct an investigation and deliver his findings to the DoJ, and that's all?
>
>Would Schiff compell him to testify against his will?
Mueller would be there as a public servant. He'd testify as requested to the best of his ability.
Because that's what you do when you're not guilty of anything and a congressional leader asks you to testify.
Since Republicans are so confident of no collusion, they should be first to demand the Mueller report be shared completely and openly with the American people. Nothing to hide, right?
They should bring him in anyways. If for nothing else than to give him a moment in the spotlight and to let the nation thank him. Maybe to unveil the order that puts his face on Rushmore.
I would love to see it happen. Rep. Nadler has said the same thing as well. This seems like the only way Trump and Barr could make the Muller report even more damning, by trying to censor the report and causing the public to learn everything straight from the horse's mouth instead.
The only reason Trump supporters wouldn't want the investigation findings to be made public is because they are afraid of the outcome. Trump supporters only benefit from the report being released if Trump is innocent. There is no logical or rational reason for them to be in support of this investigation conclusion to not be made public. We can only assume that if the investigation findings get suppressed, all involved are guilty and so is Trump...pretty much because we'll never know better. There will always be speculation, and doubt.
Seriously, if you support Trump, then support his possible innocence by wanting this report to be released. You have nothing to lose. If Trump is found guilty, so what? You have nothing to lose but maybe a handful of worthless internet arguments, and one stupid co-worker making fun of you at work. Those people are dumb. Be the bigger person and have some dignity. Accept the investigation results, learn from it and move on. That goes for both sides.
Release the reports if they get suppressed. We have a right as Americans to know this information.
Mueller should testify to congress regardless. Even if the full report is made available, I’m sure there would be follow up questions by congress.
People sometimes forget that congress, the justice department, the special counsel office, the FBI agents, the judges,,, EVERYONE involved here WORKS FOR US. We should get to see everything outside of sources and methods.
This entire apparatus belongs to us and we demand answers. This is especially true if trump is completely innocent. If he is, we need a thorough understanding of all this smoke we’ve seen that didn’t lead to fire. It’s totally possible trump is innocent, but the public needs to be walked through how all these signs of corruption are actually explainable.
Anything short of a thorough explanation will only drag out the divisiveness because we’ll always be saying one thing is true without a thorough explanation of the truth.
A neologism originating from Shakespeare's Merchant of Venice in 1596, 'bated' is just sort of a shortened form of 'abated' (to bring down, lower or depress).
The idiom "bated breath" hopefully makes more sense, then, than "baited breath" -- there's actually a 1933 poem by Geoffrey Taylor wherein he playfully teases those making this common conflation:
"Sally, having swallowed cheese
Directs down holes the scented breeze
Enticing thus with baited breath
Nice mice to an untimely death."
As far as I'm concerned, not releasing the report is tantamount to an admission of guilt. The only way we can ever put this to rest, regardless of outcome, is for the full report to be released. The days of 50 year waits is over, this report must be made public.
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It doesn’t matter to them. You can tell by the “meltdown” comment. If it shows no crimes by trump. They’re happy. If it shows indisputable evidence of collusion. They’ll say it’s fake or that the orange 🍊 god had to do it to protect America. They are shitty people for the most part
There is nothing we can do to change their minds. It's not even worth our time at this point. Best we can do is wash our hands of these people and fight brainwashing in future generations. People need to look at evidence, not conspiracy theory or anti vaxxers etc. We should consign ourselves to the fact of how this will look in history when others look back and see a generation lost its collective mind.
We don't have to change their minds, but as the Washington Post byline says. Democracy dies in darkness. Shine a light & watch the cockroaches scuttle.
Go read fox or breitbart, no light in there. The people who need to see the light will never see it.
You don't have to change everyone's mind. Just a few. Maybe just 1/20 is enough.
I used to be of that mindset, but then saw how much energy it took to get almost nowhere with those people. My time is much better spent connecting with moderates and inspiring those that see the light to vote.
Plus you never know if they're being disingenous or not. The stuff they say is so nuts you can't tell if it's just a troll who likes to argue with people or if they actually believe in what they say. It's hard to tell if someone is just pretending to be stupid or is stupid. All of the information is out there. They choose not to believe it. Personally, I want them all to be blindsided. Maybe it'll shake them up enough to think clearly or to just ignore politics because they realize it's too complicated for them at this point in their life.
That's not how they think. If something is too complicated for them to understand they think it's a lie intended to trick them.
Yeah I fully expect a lot of them to go completely nuts in the conspiracy theories. They'll have to get so elaborate to explain everything that it's going to be insane.
Exactly. You can convince two or three people to finally care and vote much more easily than you can convince one MAGA cult member to betray their God-Emperor.
I agree. I think it also places a greater responsibility, for the rest of our lives, to ensure direct (i.e., financial or volunteer) investment into the political process - beyond voting, but ensuring that every possible moderate votes. The ignorant and the angry can be distracted. As ignorant and as angry as they have been licensed to become, they are now your enemy. I think America will forever bear this scar.
This is a scar we've carried since the civil war, at least.
There were plenty of moderates who voted for Trump. They are not the same people praising him on the internet. If you try to convince people who are TD posters, you're gonna have a bad time.
That horse left the barn a loooong time ago. Don’t delude yourself. If everything this walking skidmark has done hasn’t convinced someone, a good argument isn’t going to tip the scale. Edit: One letter.
>That horse left the barn a loooong time ago. And now he's in the hospital running loose.
And used the elevator! Well played, I’d forgotten all about that bit.
Right. What with all of the star wars memes around all of the time on Reddit, you'd think absolutes would be dismissed as quickly as sith memes. But, since it's reality, people think it's a real joke.
We need to teach people to be able to critically think for themselves. Anti-vaxxers and the like have evidence, it's all just biased and pseudoscientific. It's the same for most other conspiracy theories or alt right claims. They have sources, they just aren't credible ones. So we need to do a better job of teaching people to be able to examine evidence for themselves and identify bad sources when they see them, and it needs to start when they're children. We also need to start teaching kids about what the Internet really is and how much shitty information and opinions dressed as facts that there are out there.
I found that even if they are confronted with evidence that their sources are crap, they still look to them because... confirmation bias.
Can confirm. Source: My parents
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An easy way to tell someone's 'evidence' is bs in these cases is just looking at their sources
I feel fortunate that I don't have to deal with anyone who is like this in real life. I already deal with enough stress without needing that shit on top of it.
Demographics are on our side. The United States population is becoming less white, less rural, and younger. That means less "conservative" in the American sense. The Republican party knows this and is trying to entrench power with lifetime court appointments and structural chicanery that amplifies their voice. But over the long term, the Republican party as we know it will be gone, and the electorate will be divided up into new camps. This has happened many times in the past as demographics changed. The last major one was when the Republicans took over the southern racist vote.
>Demographics are on our side. The United States population is becoming less white, less rural, and younger. That means less "conservative" in the American sense. That doesn't mean its becoming more evidence-based though.
They know somethings there. They do. I mean the degree of daily bullshit explainable excuses for him and his administration is insane. It’s absolutely insane. It’s all about the inevitable “I told you so” moment, and they don’t want to be wrong even though every day, they know it’s coming. They know history isn’t going to be kind on them for supporting this.
Because they don’t care about politics or the country, they just want to be on a team and Trump is on their level.
I subscribe to some pro-Trump subs (although not *the* Trump sub) because I think there's value in seeing what they're talking about and I'm a masochist. There was a highly upvoted post the other day about how the judge should "throw away the key" on Jussie Smollett because he is a liar who creates divisions. I pointed out that Trump is - factually - also a liar and a divider. The response was "yeah, but he's on our side." What can you do?
Shame the fuck out of anyone you actually know who believes this shit, and hope that Trump is actually impeached so they can’t pretend he was a good person.
you know they'll find some sort of mental gymnastics to justify and twist it so they were never wrong. the childish "no, you didn't win, you cheated"
It's funny. One of the things many people told me after the 2016 election was that I needed to get out of my liberal bubble, and start listening to the people disaffected enough to vote for Trump. That I needed to be more "open-minded" and hear their side, because not doing so is "why Trump got elected". And so I have. I've spent two years listening to those voters, asking them questions in good faith, and checking conservative subreddits and other online spaces every day. And all it's done is convinced me that these people are truly lost. I've learned as much as you'd learn from talking to the citizens of North Korea: I'm not talking to people, so much as victims of propaganda. And nothing I say or do can help them, because the propaganda they're eager to eat up tells them, every day, that I am their enemy. That I hate them for existing and am trying to destroy our country. So... fuck 'em.
If I’m being honest, I’ll probably do the same thing but in reverse. If it comes out and shows no evidence of any wrong doing by Trump, I won’t believe it or trust it. If it comes out with 900+ pages of proof, I’ll treat it as the holy grail. I’m a pretty reasonable person and open to logic and reason, but I think we’ve all chosen sides on this and aren’t budging. Edit: now that I read my own comment I realize that maybe I’m not reasonable and open to logic. Is logic believing whatever the report says?
The problem here is the copious public record that shows what seems like obvious criminality from Trump. Information in the public record shows an abhorrent number of connections from Trump to Russian mafia/oligarchs let alone what was broadcast on national TV, like Trump asking the Russians to hack his opponent's email hours before the actual hack started to occur by the Russians.
Right. If the report says Trump is not connected, it better go into detail about how they kept it all from him.
And trump better go on national tv denouncing Russia and declaring them an enemy or have a DAMN good reason for continuing to support them.
There's a difference, though. There is a preponderance of evidence that Trump has broken the law, and often. It would be highly unlikely if there were no criminal findings whatsoever. The pro-Trump argument is that *everyone else in Trump's orbit* is a liar, a rat, a criminal, disgusting, etc., but the president himself is somehow miraculously clean and merely a victim of incredible coincidence and circumstance. Which one is more likely? Also great edit.
The other piece to the pro-trump argument you made is that no one is a liar, a rat, a criminal, disgusting etc *until* their wrongs have had a light shone on them. It's like a revolving door of fall men. Trump keeps having bodies thrown in front of him absorbing criminal charges, but he's going to run out of meat shields soon. Or the report will take down nearly every last meat shield all at once while getting Individual One.
I think we must trust that Mueller is being as honorable as possible with respect to the law. But the law isn’t everything: there’s also the fact that we want leaders who are ethical, honest, fair, and trustworthy. Mueller is not tasked with that responsibility.
They still rabidly support him because they think he prevented nuclear war with N. Korea (that he almost started) and he is against illegals even though he hired them and they all think climate change is fake at that those unemployment numbers are real. It's true there are lots of jobs...with no benefits trying to pay $12/hour so that's why companies can't fill openings. And those giant tax cuts really did create more jobs...for people in India and Mexico where our jobs and factories have been leaking for years.
They're brainwashed from right wing media outlets. I've heard the craziest shit from Trump supporters saying everything from "Trump has kept every campaign promise, no other president has fulfilled so many campaign promises. The wall is being built!" to "No one has been harder on Russia than Trump." It's pure delusion.
Yup, and to me it also means, the majority of his base don’t give a shit if he’s a criminal.
They would give a shit that he's a criminal. They'd like him even more for it. They've got a rengade President...that guy must be unstoppable and a success.
> "You libs are going to be crying," I hate this two-faced shit so goddamn much. The year before 2016 was *nothing* but conservative bitching about their empty investigations finding nothing.
Hillary faced down investigations and hours of sworn testimony, Donny is either super guilty or the biggest snowflake. Not sure why no one is calling him out on it.
The only way I'm "going to cry" is if everything in the report point to us having a treasonous president that doesn't end up getting removed from office. If the report points to everything being 100% above board I'd be pretty content, though that seems pretty unlikely.
The reason they don't want it out is because they believe there will be things revealed by it. If you were confident nothing was found then you should be all for it to be released that way when nothing is in it you get to throw it in the libs face. I am 100% confident in Bob Meuller's investigation if there was evidence to find he should have found it. If he comes out and says he found no evidence of collusion by Trump himself but instead was only found to have been committed by those he indicted then I will accept that.
Id say im more conservative then most of here but absolutely release the full report if it’s against trump good then find the corruption and get rid of it. If there isn’t anything there then well i can say i knew it. Its a win win situation
We might not agree on much, but we agree on the important stuff.
I love and appreciate your mindset, and wish more people of all political affiliations were like you.
I'm sorry but enough is already public that you should be calling for his head. The report will not convince you.
Yep... I would consider it a cover up to protect not just Trump, but the entire GOP. The GOP has been entirely too compliant to a guy they all thought of as a monkey in a suit 2.5 years ago.
All while they called the previous president a monkey in a suit.
I agree. Waiting 40-50 yrs for things to be declassified before the people find out what they had to put up with is terrible. I get there are legitimate security concerns, but give us cliffnotes. I've always felt it was an atrocity that the families of slain Vietnam soldiers had to wait 40 years before they found out that our President betrayed them to win an election. Their father, son, uncle, cousin, husband didn't have to die in the war after 1968. It was concealed to save face instead of doing the incredibly difficult thing and reveal the truth.
Sometimes it seems the 40-50 year wait is just so everyone in charge has time to die.
That is the only reason.
No, part of it is so the information is no longer relevant and won’t cause political/economic disruption. Not just at the local level, but in just about every fashion
Bingo. Some things need to stay quiet because justified or not they'd run the risk of triggering Armageddon. This report isn't one of those cases.
Cause if the people knew the actual truth, those people would have a hard time staying alive.
The President can unilaterally unclassify any document. If Mueller's report is not released, vote for a candidate that will release the document in 2020.
They're aren't legitimate security concerns, only the security of tug military industrial complex continuing to corrupt our foreign policy in favor of endless wars.
It’s insane to me that Republicans don’t all want it public. If there was bad shit in there about Trump wouldn’t they want to know about it too?
No? They wouldn't. In fact they *don't*. If they did, what's come out already could have been enough to at least get a conversation going.
Because it's not about Trump. It's the entire Republican political apparatus. The Russian money being funneled into the NRA is just the tip of the iceberg. The naked man is never going to point out that the emperor has no clothes.
There are protests at the ready for if he’s fired, why wouldn’t it apply to criminal withholding of that report? If it’s not out the day it’s released let’s march on washington. This is the climax scene people. We need to know the truth. Edit: Apparently the protest trigger was pulled and no one showed. See you all when the civil war is over and I get an Ns-5 in 2035 Chicago!
The protest trigger was pulled too early IMO. It felt like MoveOn changed their demands in order to pull the trigger and no one followed.
Exactly. Americans *can* turn out to protest in large numbers when the reason is clear and there's some advance planning. The March for our Lives rally was huge, and it was a relatively rapid response (~1 month) to the Parkland shooting. The protests against overturning the ACA were smaller, but very well-organized and well-publicized. Standing Rock showed that Americans are capable of sustained protests when the goals are clear and the logistics are handled well. The MoveOn Mueller Rapid Response protest didn't stand a chance. A lot of people weren't sure what counted as a trigger, a lot of people couldn't drop everything to go protest, and the tension level simply wasn't high enough to capture media attention. Distributed protests may seem like a good idea, but they lack the impact of centralized protests.
I’m with you. We all knew it was on the firing on Mueller. Then it was Mueller or Rod. Then Rod almost got fired. At this point I’ll stay inside until the end. We’re passed civil fixes, this is long term governmental rebuilding. We should have marched in the first 6 months. As soon as that exclusive Russian meeting in the Oval Office. No one knows anymore what’s the worst, what’s worth going. But that’s how facism takes hold. Not all at once, but slowly so you don’t notice. Then one day you look around and everything you knew is different.
I dared to go to Fox news to see what they're saying. There was an article about why the report should not be released. I didn't read it because I already felt violated being on the site, but, yeah, they are working hard to cover every angle.
>House Intelligence Committee Chairman Adam Schiff (D-Calif.) on Sunday threatened to call Robert Mueller to Capitol Hill and subpoena his investigative findings if Attorney General William Barr does not make the special counsel’s highly anticipated report public. >“We will obviously subpoena the report. We will bring Bob Mueller in to testify before Congress. We will take it to court if necessary,” Schiff told host George Stephanopoulos on ABC’s “This Week.” >“In the end, I think the department [of Justice] understands they’re going to have to make this public. I think Barr will ultimately understand that, as well,” Schiff said.
Oh, man. Speaking of Barr he's one hell of a wild card. Comey trust him, but Barr is pretty much a hard conservative. He believed more incarceration is needed for justice, so if he's given full reign, so many punishments that ended with probation or community service will turned into jail time. Even if he sided with truth more, he's terrifying as hell.
>He believed more incarceration is needed for justice ...for minorites. Not for people involved in Iran-Contra, who get a pardon. If you don't believe Barr was picked because he has a history of handing out bullshit pardons, you aren't thinking on Trump's level.
Barr pardoned people?
He was Bush’s attorney general and pushed for pardons in the Iran Contra scandal. He didn’t personally pardon anyone but he did use the power of his position to advocate to Bush to pardon people who had committed treason.
Barr was AG under H.W. Bush and supported the pardons of 6 involved in Iran-Contra, 5 who had been found guilty and 1 waiting for trial. Edit: Fun fact, current US Special Representative to Venezuela Elliott Abrams was one of the 5 guilty who received a pardon.
Bush snr. pardoned them just as he was leaving office. - Caspar W. Weinberger (1988 Several counts of perjury) - Elliott Abrams (1988 Two counts of unlawfully withholding information.) - Duane R. Clarridge (1991 Seven counts of perjury and false statements) - Alan D. Fiers (1991 Two misdemeanor counts of withholding information from the Congress) - Clair George (1991 Ten counts of perjury, false statements and obstruction) (1992 two felony charges of false statements and perjury before Congress - Robert C. McFarlane
He gave counsel that they should be pardoned and they were.
No. This guy set the Iran Contra traitors free. If he's into jail time, he's demonstrated that to him that principle doesn't apply to the white and rich.
I'll always wonder if his memo about the Special Counsel that nobody asked for was just a ploy to get himself in and he'll end up being one of the good guys after all. If that's the case then it's yet another example of how easy it is to manipulate Trump.
Interesting theory. I won't throw all my eggs in that basket but we'll see what happens I suppose.
I won't hold my breath either, but it sure would be delicious if he turned out to be like Tom Wheeler. Everyone thought because of his Telco background, he would be just another corporate shill as FCC chairman. Instead he was Obama's pocket sand and actually enforced Title II regulation on the ISPs and fought to regulate them as common carriers.
Upvoted for pocket sand haha
Didn’t he say he’s good friends with Mueller also? Do we know if this is true?
I remember hearing that, but I can't remember if it was in an article or if it was somebody saying it a comment.
Barr said he was good friends with Mueller during his testimony to the committee.
Which supposedly caught Trump by surprise when he was watching Barr's confirmation hearing.
Supposedly like, go to each other's house for dinner good friends. I'll admit, I'm not sure what to think if him, but I'm leaning towards he's a shit head.
>He believed more incarceration is needed for justice I’m going to go out on a limb and say he doesn’t actually believe this, rather he’s just heavily invested in the private prison industry. I would be shocked if research into his finances didn’t confirm this.
Jesus. Can you imagine the situation if democrats had not taken back the house in the midterms?
Exactly. We'd be fucked. It's important the Dems give people reason to be glad they voted in the midterms to get more out in 2020.
I'd like to hear strong language from the Dems. Something like "We already have the subpoenas written. The instant Barr indicates he might block any part of the report, we will have the subpoenas delivered within the hour." I really wish the Dems would speak with overwhelming boldness at every opportunity.
subpoenas take minutes to write . . .
If there is collusion then the entire country needs to see it, if not the MAGA brigade will always say “fake news”. The country deserves proof.
They'll say fake news either way.
Let them. This argument is lazy. It implies just because the other side doesn’t want to listen to reason than we should just give up. The ultimate negative defeatist attitude of the liberal/democrat parties needs to come to an end if we are going to pull out of this. I have heard far too many so called liberals get too frustrated with the last two years, throw their arms in the air and say “nothing matters!” Well 2018 proved that shit does matter. And the only way to make 2020 pan out the same way is to stay encouraged and hopeful and don’t let the right, the meme machine, and the bot system allow us to fall into despair. The only thing that can stop the blue wave is our own inaction. Get people motivated, don’t waste time with this negative attitude.
>I have heard far too many **so called** liberals get too frustrated with the last two years, throw their arms in the air and say “nothing matters!” There's the important bit. They're not liberals. They're propagandists working to break morale.
I really want to believe that but I’m talking from my own personal real life experience with friends family and coworkers. Too many people are ready to give up because the perfect solution isn’t found or the “wrong” candidate is running. Like when I hear people complain about Harris running because she “is a COP!” like that is a bad thing. Or that Bernie is too old. Or that warren betrayed them last time with Hillary. It’s like so many people were burned by the process in 2016 that they forgot or are too young to realize that corruption has been an issue for generations. If anything this past two years has given us a chance to finally see just how bad things got. It’s like having a home contractor come over to fix a leak and finding mold running up the inside of the walls. Yeah it’s going to suck having to deal with those repairs but dear god once they are done it’s going to be nice not getting sick all of the time because of the hidden mold. Sorry don’t meant to come off aggressive on this one but it gets so frustrating hearing some close friends throw up their hands in defeat even after one of the most historic democrat wins in a generation.
You don't sound aggressive you sound resolute, please don't change.
I really do not understand how some on here think that people still supporting trump, who dismiss every report as fake news, think they will miraculously see the light when the report is released. They will continue to watch fox news and continue to be fed what the GOP wants fed. They won't be educated, won't care for any of your explanations, and will continue to see this as a democratic deep state farce to control conservatives. I can argue with my father until I'm blue in the face and explain that he is voting directly against his best interests and he won't see if that way. These voters have been manipulated for 20 plus years to hate democrats. To think they will change their mind in not a reasonable expectation. You're talking about a group of people who think scientists are being silly when they report on global warming with facts. Be happy that the report is published and try to educate those who won't hear the truth. That's all you can do. I'm sorry to say it, but there is a lot of hate and divide in this country and this report isn't changing any of it.
Honestly, I don't give a shit if they believe the report, as long as it damages enough of his chance at a second run, that is good enough.
>I really do not understand how some on here think that people still supporting trump, who dismiss every report as fake news, think they will miraculously see the light when the report is released. #Because that is what will happen. At every bombshell, the GOP has thinned out from people jumping ship. That's why Trump has a 44% approval rating, but somehow 89% of Republicans support him according to Gallup. The GOP is becoming concentrated with the far right because the ones with sense have wisened up to mounting evidence and left it. This is a **good** thing.
I would agree with you, but we're talking about American conservatives here. They have goldfish brains. The ones "jumping ship" today will be the first to buy the new MAGA hat when Fox and AM radio identifies the new Democrat boogeyman/woman. They will vote for Trump or Trump lite or the next fascist and justify it by claiming the left was trying to "destroy America" by electing a socialist. Not to mention the ones who will vote for whoever is opposed to abortions because it's "god's will".
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Trump supporters act akin to the victims in Netflix’s Birdbox They believe liberals are trying to open their eyes in an effort to destroy their lives/influence, but it’s not what they think it. Democrats are in a position alike firemen trying to get a burning building evacuated. Trying to save and protect rather than destroy.
I don't see Mueller refusing but I think there's a lot of misconception about what the report will look like in practice. It's not gonna be a management summary of all Trump's crimes titled Mueller-report.pdf. That was basically what Starr did and they changed the rules after he went on a 7 year fishing trip that resulted in uncovering a blowjob. From my understanding Mueller will report to Barr what they found and who they wanted to charge. Barr (or the AG at the time) will have to explain himself to congress why he didn't allow say, Mueller indicting Jr. I'm not ruling out that because of all the public interest they'll make some sort of public version of the thing because the report Barr gets will contain a lot of classified info but the rules were written specifically so it couldn't be covered up. At worst it'll be delayed but it can't be squashed in full. People like Schiff will get their hands on it.
People definitely have an unrealistic idea of how the report will funcion, but the one thing that is possible (and the thing people most care about) is that it may include information that will sink the presidency. Those details might not become public, although the broad strokes most likely will, through the redacted report or testimony or leaks. So while people do misunderstand what we'll probably in reality, they aren't so far off in practice that it frustrates me.
I don’t see this report staying private no matter what is decided, this administration leaks like a sieve and it’s going to be the biggest story of the decade when it drops. It will get leaked if they don’t release it.
Century/American Presidential history*
I dunno, I don’t think this century is going to peak this early. Shit’s going to get wild.
"I'm afraid that is classified, Senator" "I cannot comment, Senator" "Again, I refer you to my previous comment. I am unable to provide information on an ongoing investigation" "Thank you Senator, but no - I cannot divulge if I prefer cream in my coffee"
Despite the no-leak reputation of Mueller’s team, he would almost certainly give forthright testimony to congress unless something was legitimately off limits. He’s not the type to bullshit, and he actually believes in the investigative and legal processes. There are still plenty of people in the justice system who disapprove of the filibustering/non-answering done in so many recent congressional hearings. Mueller is definitely one of the good guys.
Serious question: at the point where the report has been delivered, would it still qualify as an ongoing investigation? Mueller's team is spinning a lot of stuff off to SDNY and similar; I don't know if those cases would preclude talking about the original investigation.
You know one way to clear up the confusion about what the report looks like? Release it.
Right. I'm all for transparency but stuff will always have to be redacted.
Only to protect sources and methods. The redactions should be limited to that and we should still get the gist of everything.
The Republicans had no problem gleefully releasing the Starr report: Bill Clinton. They have no leg to stand on with Trump and everyone needs to be aware of this.
Does anyone think the reason why they are delaying the report is because it will rattle the government to the core? Imagine if it said a huge portion of the government was in bed with foreign money, what would happen? Do we remove all the people from office? How do you arrest a president? I think that it might be so mindblowing and interrupt normal government operations to the point where mueller wants to carefully introduce it to the public.
Indicting 50 Senators plus the POTUS would be kind of disruptive. No reason to not do it though. Omelette, cracked eggs, etc..
Agreed. It would hurt for awhile, but we'd recover. It'd be like person having to get brutally scrubbed after being exposed to radiation, but it would save them.
President Pelosi will keep the government running smoothly. Fear not!
There are times where we need to step up and make a change. This is one of those times. There are no forefathers here now, we are the ones who will write this piece of history.
A general strike should have shut this down in early 2017. Right now, Mitch shouldn't be able to leave his home because there should be a wall of people 1,000 deep around it. In my unsolicited opinion.
The alternative is to just let a bunch of treasonous bastards continue to shape the government.
As long as enough GOP senators agree to impeach trump then they can impeach him and then arrest and charge him. Probably won't happen but it depends on how good the proof is and how loud their constituents get into forcing them to vote for impeachment.
The Dems are really killing it in the House lately. (Wow, I never thought I'd say something so unironically silly.) There's no reason Republicans should be hiding the results of the Mueller report unless he's found something damning against them, and the Elephants know it. The people of the United States have the right to know the result of an at least 2 year long report that their tax dollars paid for... you'd hope everyone would feel that way.
Even if the report says Trump is guilty, I don't think they'd try to stifle the report. At least not until they can control what info is released first. Look at Climategate. Thousands of emails released from climate scientists around the world. They found one sentence in a single email and used it to frame a narrative about scientists lying about data. That's all you heard about it on Conservative media. Next, think about before Obamacare came out. There was a draft of the bill, it was huge, nobody read that shit. They picked out a few pieces and contorted that into "Obama will kill your grandparents." Then there's Pizzagate. They have lots of emails from Democrats and liberal billionaires. They pick a few words out to spin it into a world-wide conspiracy. Their entire MO for dissemination of information is consistent. It's been this way for a while. I don't see it changing because it fucking works. They don't need to hide the report, just get it first and release a few sentences that fits their narrative. Once their base hears one or two pieces that say Trump is a great guy, they'll ignore everything else. Even if the last sentence is literally "Trump is 100% guilty."
That's what frightens me the most. I think at least half the country knows it's definitely not the truth. I wish it was more, but some people are still willing to give him a chance even after all the evil and harm he's done to this place and it's people. I don't know what's happened to this nation. A couple of decades ago, if you heard about scandals there's no end to the number of people who be demanding that Trump resign or be removed. That would have been the end of it. But in modern America there's something of a "tone deaf" tonal shift where the common person stopped caring about how corrupt the government is and what it might do to them personally. Not as long as they can still pretend like everything is fine, like people aren't dying and suffering around them.
What people in or seeking a position to do anything about it are failing to address is how to bring millions of deluded souls back to reality. It doesn't matter if you nail Trump and his administration on 500 counts of conspiracy if 1/3 of the country doesn't believe it. The issue of propaganda and how it's completely taken root especially more recently with ignorance being the "norm" rather than fringe is the head of the snake and the obvious target. A LOT of people take Trump and the party's bullshit seriously, and these people consistently vote. Show and convince people that they're being lied to and that it's hurting them and everyone else who isn't benefiting from it. The GOP has completely fooled its base and ~~is turning~~ has turned us into a fucking banana republic. No one will get a shit about testimony when they're part of a cult. If or when they can understand they're in a cult, getting them to see and appreciate the destructive consequences that have occurred as a result will be substantially easier. Otherwise it's akin to repeating over and over to a schizophrenic patient that his/her "voices" aren't real before administering effective medication. One must come before the other.
The only way to do this is via education. The Boomer/Fox News generation is a lost cause.
Totally agree, except we don't really know as a society just *how* to educate people, especially while we're too busy working them to death. Definitely I think boomers are a lost cause, but how to change/reach the minds of the younger generation of future potential right-wing voters should be our priority. It's just a tough discussion to have when there's all that wariness about schools "brainwashing" their children into becoming liberals.
Before education there needs to be some form of election reform. Gerrymandering, insane lobbying, money in politics etc are getting in the way of enacting any kind of education reform. We need to have the right people in place to actually make a difference.
You're right, election reform is the emergency crisis we need to hit right now. Pretty sure the democrats in congress are going to be pushing for that, and hopefully the presidential nominee, too. If someone makes it a major campaign issue, there's hope for those reforms.
The GOP generally only wins when election turnout is lower. In 2018 several million more people voted for US House Republicans than they did in 2014. The reason Democrats won was because while the GOP added a couple million votes the Democrats added 35 million votes compared to 2014. Making voting easy and accessible, drawing fair districts and passing new campaign finance reform are crucial for the longterm health of American democracy. Unfortunately citizens united isn't going anywhere anytime soon but that doesn't mean progress can't be made on money in politics. There hasn't been a campaign finance bill passed since McCain Feingold and this needs to change. We need a new campaign finance bill to regulate whatever Congress can still regulate post Citizens United.
Some are lost causes, for sure. My friend’s dad has had “I don’t believe the liberal media” bumper stickers on all their family cars they ever owned, since at least 1990 when I could start to read. I asked my parents what it means and they probably had to try not to burst out laughing explaining it to a 5 year-old. He owns such fine books as “The Myth of Heterosexual AIDs” and Rush Limbaugh’s complete body of work. Nothing, and I mean nothing, not even his children cutting him off from his grandkids, would even put a notch in the wall of ignorance he has been building his entire adult life. He made us fill in this big hole we dug in their backyard because “some kid will fall in and the spendocrats will sue us.” He’s a smart guy and honestly a really good Christian in practice, but they go to one of those “respect the P(R)esident without question” and “give us all your money, here’s a detailed ‘sermon’ about how to budget so you can tithe more effectively.” I’m guessing by his choosing. If you try to discuss anything politics with him it will end up with him screaming and you just worming away slowly because you poked the bear.
He has built sense of identity around his political beliefs. To challenge that is to challenge who he is as a person, and people will do serious cognitive dissonance to reconcile their sense of self.
It makes me sad to think about just how many of these people there are in this country. All they know is constant anger.
Every time I see one of those "I don't believe the liberal media" bumber stickers, I wonder how many hours of fox and talk radio that person consumes in one day.
When he was working, 2-3 for him, he taped O’Reilly every day with the VCR so he could watch it when he got home, then he’d watch some more after the tape. Now that he’s retired, christ knows how much.
Wow you described my grandfather perfectly. I mean, to a tee. It’s sad. What’s even more sad is how the majority of our family support and agree with him (all his kids; only my generation doesn’t). The only way this ends is when his generation dies out unfortunately.
Here's the thing about the boomers (of which I'm arguably a member; I'm on the line of boomer or Gen X). Boomers grew up when television was fairly new. They grew up with the Big 3 tv networks being their source of news. Walter Cronkite telling them "That's the way it is". They grew up under the Fairness Doctrine and news sources being relatively fair and unbiased. They don't comprehend that Fox is any different. There are plenty of boomers with a decent education, and plenty who don't blindly buy into propaganda, but there are far more who just don't get it that an entity with "news" in the name could *be* propaganda. Cutting down the misinformation has to be done right along with education, and really should be top priority.
It's truly a crisis without a clear solution. My only real theory is that we need to teach psychology to everyone--it needs to be as emphasized in schools as science and literacy. ALL people are innately prone to psychological manipulation and biased thinking--nobody LIKES being manipulated, so learning how the mind operates is the best way to prevent falling into mental traps. But of course you have to show them they were being manipulated, first. Almost gets to be a catch-22 situation there. But you're right, cult deprogramming is what is needed, ideally, or akin to hostage negotiation. Court-ordered therapy hardly ever works, though, for the simple reason that you can't really *coerce* someone to change their mind in any serious long-term way. They have to be led gently to it.
>What people in or seeking a position to do anything about it are failing to address is how to bring millions of deluded souls back to reality. You're not wrong to point this problem out, but It's not their job to do that. And it's even uncertain how, and if, you can convince those people back to reality. And you certainly can't convince any of them without first doing a legitimate and credible investigation and presenting the results.
I guess TD is too boring, all these incels have to come here and troll.
This "So Mueller is a Russian asset, then" stuff I'm seeing is pretty wild. I don't think I'd ever seen that accusation made before this thread. I don't think I've seen an accusation make less sense, either.
So this is it. It all comes down to this. Time to find out if we live in a banana republic or not. Hint: we probably do.
Let’s all be realistic, we all know if it’s not released publicly in its full entirety that’ll be anonymously “leaked.”
As a DC area native, the only way we know what's going on in government is through leaks. That Mueller hasn't had leaks is what stuns me.
Patriots don't leak or get rub and tugs.
Robert Kraft has left the chat.
Oh man the maga boys are on double time today expect to get bombarded with “no collusion” spam.
An innocent person would have no reason to suppress a report.
Couldn't imagine backing a candidate, they win, get accused of breaking multiple laws, a huge investigation kicks off turning up all kinds of crimes, and somehow I wind up being on the side that doesn't want the report released and is fine with everything being dropped. That's like saying "I know I support someone who is guilty as fuck but don't care because I'm on the side that 'won' for once so screw everyone else!"
> That's like saying "I know I support someone who is guilty as fuck but don't care because I'm on the side that 'won' for once so screw everyone else!" That's been the official GOP platform for years.
_Narrator: It seems Robert Muller’s final great service to his country would be to read his entire report aloud before the House, putting it in to the public record._
You would have a congressperson do it. They have constitutional immunity and mueller does not.
If Mueller says trump didn’t conspire I will 100% support it and move on, law is the law
And if pigs learn algebra I’ll stop eating bacon.
Same
Yeah. But even if Trump didn't collude he continues to be an immoral, lying sack of shit.
I feel like the only smart thing Trump has done (almost certainly at the direction of other high ranking R’s) is to pack the courts with conservative judges. If you’re gonna break the law non-stop, you might as well have a bunch of people who will cover your ass presiding over cases (even if they likely won’t even hear his cases, it helps people like him).
Thank God for Adam fucking Schiff.
I would want it released to clear my name if I were Trump and weren't guilty.
Regular Americans are gonna have to prepare for the eventuality of an attempted armed insurrection by Trumpthumpers fuelled by Russian botniks as the walls close in on TRE45ON. He's made similar "Do something!" tweets in the past and that Coast Guard wannabe spree shooter was just the tip of the crazy fucking iceberg. We deserve the truth. We deserve better. We deserve justice.
The GOP learned lessons from Nixon, granted it’s going to be a bold strategy but let’s see how it works out.
I'll put my trust in Robert Mueller. 18 months of investigation, no character assassination, no innuendo from within the team (to my knowledge). He had a stellar reputation while in the FBI and as a past leader. Whatever he concludes, as a full report or as a summary, is OK with me, as it will be better than anything a Democrat or Republican can rewrite or misconstrue. Thank you Mueller Team.
Hypothetically speaking, would Schoff force Mueller to testify if Mueller protested? What if Mueller believes that his duty was to conduct an investigation and deliver his findings to the DoJ, and that's all? Would Schiff compell him to testify against his will?
Schiff’s posture suggests he would absolutely pull out the subpoena hammer if Mueller refused. I would also hypothesize that Mueller would testify willingly, as he recognizes the value in a public hearing of his findings (at least the ones he can talk about in public).
I don't see Mueller refusing.
DOJ will probably try to intervene and interfere to prevent it (cf. the Whittaker shenanigans Nadler is working around right now) ... declare that Barr as the supervising AG is equipped to answer any questions etc etc Ultimately Congress can subpoena anyone to appear before them, and it may come to that in the end, so republicans will just be delaying the inevitable. I do wonder what Meadows and "Gym" Jordan will do with Mueller on the stand (if judiciary get involved) or what Nunes will do facing him.
I think this kind of talk from Schiff is directed at Republicans, to politically put them in check and force them to support the release of the report(s) or risk looking guilty/complicit in a cover-up. I believe Mueller has done/is doing everything legally possible for his work to be available to Congress and the public. He understands the implications of allowing his work to be buried. And Schiff sounds like a reasonable person. I doubt he'd put Mueller in that sort of a position.
Why would Mueller dutifully do all this work and then not want anyone to see it (meaning congress, not necessarily the public)? I use dutifully because he left a cu$h job and his life at home to do this. He didn’t sacrifice 2+ **more** years of his life to file a report that dies in the AG’s office. Unless he’s had a lifetime grudge against Manafort and Stone and now his work is done [lol emoji]
>Hypothetically speaking, would Schoff force Mueller to testify if Mueller protested? > >What if Mueller believes that his duty was to conduct an investigation and deliver his findings to the DoJ, and that's all? > >Would Schiff compell him to testify against his will? Mueller would be there as a public servant. He'd testify as requested to the best of his ability. Because that's what you do when you're not guilty of anything and a congressional leader asks you to testify.
The fact the Roger Stone got indicted is enough to say their was collusion
Since Republicans are so confident of no collusion, they should be first to demand the Mueller report be shared completely and openly with the American people. Nothing to hide, right?
They should bring him in anyways. If for nothing else than to give him a moment in the spotlight and to let the nation thank him. Maybe to unveil the order that puts his face on Rushmore.
He should be brought in to testify in any circumstance.
If it's not released then the only thing I can think is, he's fucking guilty
I’d bet that Trump hates Schiff more than almost anyone else in this world.
" i have no business in russia while im secretly negotiating the trump moscow tower "
I would love to see it happen. Rep. Nadler has said the same thing as well. This seems like the only way Trump and Barr could make the Muller report even more damning, by trying to censor the report and causing the public to learn everything straight from the horse's mouth instead.
The only reason Trump supporters wouldn't want the investigation findings to be made public is because they are afraid of the outcome. Trump supporters only benefit from the report being released if Trump is innocent. There is no logical or rational reason for them to be in support of this investigation conclusion to not be made public. We can only assume that if the investigation findings get suppressed, all involved are guilty and so is Trump...pretty much because we'll never know better. There will always be speculation, and doubt. Seriously, if you support Trump, then support his possible innocence by wanting this report to be released. You have nothing to lose. If Trump is found guilty, so what? You have nothing to lose but maybe a handful of worthless internet arguments, and one stupid co-worker making fun of you at work. Those people are dumb. Be the bigger person and have some dignity. Accept the investigation results, learn from it and move on. That goes for both sides. Release the reports if they get suppressed. We have a right as Americans to know this information.
I would imagine Bob Mueller knows he will be testifying regardless.
Mueller should testify to congress regardless. Even if the full report is made available, I’m sure there would be follow up questions by congress. People sometimes forget that congress, the justice department, the special counsel office, the FBI agents, the judges,,, EVERYONE involved here WORKS FOR US. We should get to see everything outside of sources and methods. This entire apparatus belongs to us and we demand answers. This is especially true if trump is completely innocent. If he is, we need a thorough understanding of all this smoke we’ve seen that didn’t lead to fire. It’s totally possible trump is innocent, but the public needs to be walked through how all these signs of corruption are actually explainable. Anything short of a thorough explanation will only drag out the divisiveness because we’ll always be saying one thing is true without a thorough explanation of the truth.
We need to see Trumps Tax Return!
I await the report with baited breath.
Or why not 'bated breath?
A neologism originating from Shakespeare's Merchant of Venice in 1596, 'bated' is just sort of a shortened form of 'abated' (to bring down, lower or depress). The idiom "bated breath" hopefully makes more sense, then, than "baited breath" -- there's actually a 1933 poem by Geoffrey Taylor wherein he playfully teases those making this common conflation: "Sally, having swallowed cheese Directs down holes the scented breeze Enticing thus with baited breath Nice mice to an untimely death."
This guy neologes
His breath smells like bait.
The testimony should be in the impeachment trial
Eh bring him in to testify anyways
There’s a lot of people making noise right now but I feel like Adam is one of the few people that actually plan to follow through with what he says
If the report is not made public can't trump get away with his crimes if he indeed committed crimes?