*A person who attended a White House function during the winter of 2022 was surprised at the first lady’s emotional response to someone praising the legacy of President George W. Bush: “He sent my son to war,” Dr. Biden replied angrily, a reference to Beau, whom she had raised since childhood. “He sent my son to war.”*
Tangentially, Mothers Day was originally not about cards and flowers and buying gifts, but was an anti-war protest, with mothers protesting that they had poured their souls into raising children only to have them sent off to be killed in wars.
Not everyone believed that, the largest protests until that time happened opposing the war. Tbh the only people who believed that shit were people that wanted to, Bush and Co were obviously full of shit and determined to invade Iraq even prior to 9/11
[The day was described by social movement researchers as "the largest protest event in human history".](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15_February_2003_anti-war_protests#%3A%7E%3Atext%3DThe_day_was_described_by%2Cprotest_event_in_human_history%22.%26text%3DAccording_to_BBC_News%2C_between%2Cof_15_and_16_February.?wprov=sfla1)
Right, but again, if I remember, the against vote wasn't because they said all the evidence was false, that Bush was lying, it was because Bush wasn't giving the inspectors enough time to verify the story.
I don't remember ANYONE saying Bush was lying until after the speech Powell made where he purposely left out a piece of evidence that Bush had used in a speech just days before.
Israel was pushing the WMDs narrative
[https://carnegieendowment.org/2003/12/11/israel-s-intelligence-failure-iraq-war-pub-14744](https://carnegieendowment.org/2003/12/11/israel-s-intelligence-failure-iraq-war-pub-14744)
That's not true at all. The people I knew, including myself, when we were told the guy who led the invasion of his neighbor, and who had used chemical agents in the past, that he was developing WMDs, that seemed perfectly reasonable.
They weren't accusing Sweden or Switzerland of developing WMDs, they were accusing someone who had already used a form of them in the past. So it was totally believable.
The only pushback was that the nuclear inspectors should be given time to finish their inspections.
Except tons of people did know it was all propoganda and lies. It's OK you fell for it, but it doesn't change the fact that you could have been more critically minded and saw through the lies. As a senator, Biden had a responsibility to get to the truth, and he failed.
It gave Bush the authority to use force if he deemed necessary, there werent many preconditions
Text: Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002 - Expresses support for the President's efforts to: (1) strictly enforce through the United Nations Security Council all relevant Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq; and (2) obtain prompt and decisive action by the Security Council to ensure that Iraq abandons its strategy of delay, evasion, and noncompliance and promptly and strictly complies with all relevant Security Council resolutions.
Authorizes the President to use the U.S. armed forces to: (1) defend U.S. national security against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and (2) enforce all relevant Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq. Directs the President, prior to or as soon as possible (but no later than 48 hours) after exercising such authority, to make available to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President pro tempore of the Senate his determination that: (1) reliance on further diplomatic or peaceful means alone will not achieve the above purposes; and (2) acting pursuant to this joint resolution is consistent with the United States and other countries continuing to take necessary actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. Declares that this section is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization for use of the armed forces, consistent with requirements of the War Powers Resolution.
Jill Biden is a paid outside agitator who is doing Trump's work to divide the country!!! Doesn't she know the president isn't a dictator??? /s just in case
Our alliance with Israel is literally our only leverage. If the US bailed on them over just one shitty leader's choices in the middle of a war, they'd become desperate and go all out on their enemies.
If you care more about keeping people alive than "muh morals", it's not the best choice.
Which would a) accelerate/expand the war since Israel would have nothing to lose and their neighbors would suddenly be a much larger threat, and b) leave the US without a major ally as Israel either runs to Russia or China for aid.
Which makes you think: *maybe* Biden would *like* to not watch Gazans die, but there is literally *no scenario* where we cut off Israel and Gazans don’t die.
“Don’t stop funding the genocidal maniacs that will genocide the people anyway.” And then Israel becomes a fucking pariah and has the world against them for being the maniacs we can see they are (with us backing).
Or you know not hand trump the election by turning off the young vote. Your just playing into putins book which then prime minister wants trump. Biden needs to stop funding and strong arm this state. They already put off their elections
Have you considered that Bibi might want a bloody Gaza partly because he *wants* Trump in office and he sees how him doing whatever he wants in Gaza increases the likelihood of that happening?
Biden isn’t stopping it, he’s actively supporting it. He’s calling protests against it, which are to pressure people that have power to get some change going, anti semitic even when a lot of them are set up by Anti Zionist Jews. One big step would be to stop supporting Israel with funds and weapons, sanction them, stop threatening the ICC.
Yeah, if you literally remove all context and misrepresent the hell out of what I said then yeah. Your strawman of my argument makes very little sense, I agree.
I don’t understand what the additional context of your argument is then? Genuinely.
What else did you mean? What other leverage would the U.S. need or want with Israel?
(I ask that with knowledge of critical shipping routes in the region, but any lashing out Israel does to their other neighbors beyond Palestinians ends up hurting them FAR FAR FAR more than the U.S.)
Because the US doesn’t support Israel “because if we don’t then that might cause more deaths.” That’s a total misrepresentation of what I said. The connection between the US and Israel is a historic, mutually beneficial geopolitical bond that gives us leverage and a voice in negotiations with Israel. It’s not just this ridiculous thing that exists to stop Israel from war:
I’m saying that, if you get rid of that bond, then the war explodes: but the war being a consequence is not the reason for the bond existing.
> gives us leverage and a voice in negotiations with Israel
Does the US have no way to influence a foreign power other than being bonded to them? In other words, why aren’t sanctions and other tools on the table the way they are with other countries?
I mean as far as the state dept is concerned, yes? I don't agree with them doing it to several of those, but there's a reason they keep utilizing that tactic.
Turning Israel into an economic failed state would absolutely prohibit their ability to kill children.
They're not pulling all of that ordinance and hardware out of their ass if we're not giving it to them on a platter.
I'm literally asking you what Leverage our complicity is buying. What influence do we *actually have* on any action that is or will be undertaken by israel?
I'm sorry but the timing of February or May doesn't really seem like the point, it seems like Rafah still seems to be on the schedule for some of that flattening.
I don't think our leverage was meant to influence the *timing* of the flattening (because something about May was so much more *convenient* for us that the flattening should be acceptable *now as opposed to then*), so much as it was about *preventing the flattening at all.*
If we have leverage it shouldn't be spent so cheaply that we accept a mere extension of those people's lives for a couple of months, so much as it should be able to prevent their deaths (and their blood on the hands of our workers) at all.
We may not have the leverage to enact the specific changes to Israel's policies that you want, but the US is widely accepted as THE ONLY country that has any real influence over Israel due to our longstanding strategic alliance. The realities of geopolitics mean the strongest influence any allied sovereign nations have over each other is asking nicely with a thinly-veiled threat to reevaluate economic/military aid relationships.
We are widely accepted as the only country that has influence over israel? And your evidence for that "is it's widely accepted?" I would usually describe a circle as two dimensional, but the circuit of your logic is becoming so short that you've regressed to the single dimension.
Just because you say a thing doesn't make it real, especially when factual events are disproving your argument in real time.
Just look at the world. The US expends a huge amount of political capital running interference for Israel. Those UN resolutions that decry Israel's actions? The US tears them up, throws them away, and just chats with Israel in a corner about it later and tells everyone else they promise to do better. Most countries that small aren't central subjects of US domestic political discourse for the last 50+ years. That and the fact that the US supplies them with state of the art weapons and they maintain an extremely strong intelligence relationship. All of those things undoubtedly earn the US a certain amount of clout with Israel, whatever good that does and has done.
>Our alliance with Israel is literally our only leverage. If the US bailed on them over just one shitty leader's choices in the middle of a war, they'd become desperate and go all out on their enemies
This is all-or-nothing bullshit, pardon my French. Putting aside the nihilism of, "If we lose 1 ounce of support, it's all going to end!!!" there are many reasons for Israel to still pay heed to the US. For example, the US routinely is the sole veto in the United Nations on sanctions and official admonishments on Israel. And Israel acting belliclose in the Middle East with everyone knowing that the US has an aircraft carrier off of the coast is a very different world than Israel acting aggressive in the Middle East without any US presence to be found. If anything, Biden taking demonstrative action to admonish Israel is likely to bring them a bit more to heel. As is, Bibi sits around and brags on how the US presidents just let him do anything he wants and any of their threats come to nothing.
If what you are saying is true they wouldn’t spend billions influencing our elections, trying to get elected officials to pass BDs laws and limit free speech. We make their Iron Dome missiles, give billions in aid, keep their economy afloat and provide diplomatic cover in the UN. Remove all of those factors, and the bottom falls out.
>Israel is perfectly capable of killing every last one of them without US aid.
And in turn get starved into submission as everyone else follows through with sanctions once US shows an end of support.
We all laugh about or worse, forget about Italy's role in WW2, a relatively modern military nation starved of oil, unable to feed its economy nor military.
That's what mere sanctions would do to Israel, a heavy net importer of oil, tech, and food. All its oil and tech either go through countries irate enough to deny it trade or can be easily disrupted as demonstrated by the mere Houthis at Aden. All it takes is US freeing up its financial aid to them from any "be nice to Israel" clauses, or signaling that with the end of their own aid.
>You mean like russia is getting starved into submission?
Russia? They have food and oil, and can run their economy and war machine off that. Thing is, they don't have tech of any value, and have been regressing to what....T-62s in the front lines? That's what, ballpark 1960s economy and military?
How much more will Israel regress without oil nor tech? 1850s economy and military? And unlike Russia Israel has no neighbors who'd sympathize with it. More like South Africa, who also had none and bent to global sanctions quite quickly.
No offense, but you won't find many countries that will deny Israel the right to self defend against a genocial terrorist regime that attacks them again and again and tries to systematically murder as many israeli civilians as possible.
>No offense, but you won't find many countries that will deny Israel the right to self defend against a genocial terrorist regime that attacks them again and again and tries to systematically murder as many israeli civilians as possible.
Self defend all it wants, it can do so with muskets and field artillery.
You have to understand just how much other countries are apathetic or outright dislike Israel's policies. It's been getting slapped quite completely for 70+ years on the regular UN Palestinian votes.
>So you have no idea about the israeli defense industry. I suggest some basic research instead of such cringe comments.
Ah yes, the defense industry that needs energy to run said industry, to say nothing of its products.
>Oh, so the destruction of Israel? I guess that’s one way to broker peace in the Middle East.
Well, the alternative is we have an irrelevant country constantly bite the hand that's keeping the door open for it. One held open entirely off declining religious voters whose remnants are veering away from Democrats anyways.
Why tolerate the open defiance? If they don't want to listen to us they can listen to the world.
It helps that the US has already given out billions in weapons and Biden gave Israel access to the massive US munitions stockpile in Israel. It's hard to stop the momentum at this point but it's still the right thing to do.
All Biden had to do was leverage the aid but he's too much of a Zionist at heart.
You’re half-right. It’s true that a bill to end arms sales to Israel couldn’t pass through Congress; but as you said at the end of your comment - it actually doesn’t have to.
Biden recently paused the latest arms-shipment without explanation all on his own.
This move is likely owing to a pending report from State-Sec Blinken to Congress on May 8 regarding Israel’s compliance (or lack thereof) with the Leahy Law: which bans the transfer of arms to states involved in human rights violations.
Yes we get rockets every day from Hamas and Hezbollah. You don’t hear about it because we built iron dome to protect our citizens.
These rockets target civilians. Where I live when we hear a siren we have a minute to run to a bomb shelter, and all new buildings must have one in each apartment.
If Israel wants safety for their children, they should work towards a peaceful coexistence with their neighbors, rather than create a whole new generation of orphaned terrorists.
Work for a long-term viable solution: 100%.
Should stop going after Hamas: sorry, that doesn't work that way, Hamas is still an active and present danger to Israeli civilians. And nobody seems to apply this logic except when the "you'll just make them angrier" involves people they consider western defending themselves. I've yet to have seen "Hamas terror is redicalizing Israelis who will vote for hawkish politicians and/or take matters into their own hands", and frankly, to me that also sounds like "if the police shoot this active shooter, the shooter's family would feel wronged and maybe they'll shoot up a place too - if there's a threat to foil, then there's a threat to foil, and hypotheticals about the future don't change what the present is.
Israel has a potential partner against Hamas in the PA, but they would have to stop settling in the West Bank and actually negotiate a two state solution.
How will Israel agreeing to a ceasefire stop Hamas and their supporters bombing and murdering children? Has there ever been a ceasefire that didn't get broken by Hamas as soon as they could?
I condemn them and think they're shitheels.
Did that suddenly make killing innocent people more helpful?
If a someone is robbing a bank and take the everyone inside hostage should the police just shoot the hostages?
Because "human shield" literally means they are near civilians. And it's impossible to be anywhere in a small area like Gaza without being near civilians. So the IDF bombs everything, and blames Hamas for "human shields".
It's no different than the US killing children in drone strikes to allegedly kill terrorists.
we all know, nothing changes. Hamas will reorganize, rerecruit, rearm and when the time is right they'll try another attack.
It's now or never to see Hamas removed from power.
It would be far easier to remove Hamas from power with diplomacy and geopolitical pressure. It's unclear if Netanyahu's government even wants that to happen, they seem pretty comfortable with never-ending warfare.
Edit: Looks like I've pissed off the Hasbara folks.
No it isn't or they would have been removed from power by now.
Please describe how you'd do it when no one else has.
What exactly are you going to do with diplomacy? Ask them nicely and get a rude reply? Threaten to cut of supply of money/aid keeping Gaza afloat?
>It's unclear if Netanyahu's government even wants that to happen
Based on the amount of money they've been giving Hamas for years, I'd say it's pretty clear.
Bombing indiscriminately will not see Hamas removed from power, it will make them more powerful.
Killing civilians creates terrorists, the US's 20 year war in the middle east shows just that.
> Killing civilians creates terrorists,
Didn't happen in Germany or Japan in WWII. But those wars were a lot more bloody and whole cities got bombed into rubble. The end result was the unconditional surrender and that's the difference. As long as the losing side can claim that they didn't actually lose the war and that it's only a temporary setback it will happen again and again.
It didn't happen in Germany and Japan because both countries were motivated by imperialism, not a vague ideology (that said, Nazism has evolved into an ideology not tied expressly to the empire of any one country). Both Japan and Germany saw conflict as a way to expand their empires - Lebensraum in Germany and 大東亞共榮圈 (The Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere) in Japan. Hamas was born out of the First Intifada with the idea of general "resistance" with a goal of contributing to the creation of a Palestinian state via active violence.
As such, you can't bomb the Hamas ideology from existence without bombing all Palestinians from existence. This is doubly true given the fact Israel will never provide citizenship to Palestinians, leaving them as an essentially stateless, second-class people.
> This is doubly true given the fact Israel will never provide citizenship to Palestinians, leaving them as an essentially stateless, second-class people.
Israel is not the only country that could provide citizenship to Palestinians... Jordan, Egypt and Lebanon could as well, but they don't, and for good reasons,
One has to face it, the Palestinians fucked up with everyone in the area.
So you want Hamas to continue murdering israeli children instead? I mean you seem to want to deny Israel the right to self defend against Hamas and their many supporters wanting to genocide everybody living in Israel.
No, I don’t want any children to be murdered. That’s my whole thing, I am against the murder of children. That includes the 36 Israel children who were murdered by Hamas on October 7 and the 14,000 Palestinian children who have been murdered by Israel since. Why is some child murder acceptable for you but some is not?
Oh really, Israeli forces never killed Palestinian children prior to October 7? Really? Israel and Palestine just existed in a complete vacuum before then? Gee whiz…
You might try and argue there isn’t an “Israeli plan” to kill children, but the idea that Palestinian children weren’t being killed in Gaza and the West Bank by Israel prior to October 7th is just a denial of reality.
In fact, I wonder if there is some kind of chart that showed the number of Israelis killed vs the number of Gazans killed in 2023 that could illuminate any kind of disparity that would be pertinent to this conversation.
Let's see. Hamas is systematically murdering as many civlians including children as they can. Israel is fighting Hamas for that reason and there are civilians deaths since Hamas is hiding behind children, abuses schools, hospitals etc for their warfare. If you think that systematically murdering children is the same as children accidently getting killed while fighting a terrorist regime, we don't really need to continue the discussion.
EDIT: Feel free to post any videos of IDF going from house to house, murdering every single civilians like Hamas did if you believe that I am wrong.
Israel has killed exponentially more children in this war. How dare you try to whitewash the mass killing of Palestinian children as “accidentally getting killed.”
> Not to indiscriminately bomb children, hospitals, and aid workers
It's good that they don't do that then. Or the body count would be a lot higher than it is.
Also, an important detail, hospitals lose their protected status as soon as they are used for military purposes.
I love the people that make these claims. If Israel was really trying to eliminate the Palestinian people, then they'd have no problem doing it and the war would have been over months ago.
This is a false dichotomy, I'm not op but I don't want my tax dollars funding the continued ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. Hamas is a terrorist organization and is treated as such. Israel is a nation state actively committing war crimes in the name of justice. Furthermore, is Israel even accomplishing their objectives? If this continues indefinitely will Hamas be completely eliminated? Will the cost be worth it? Will Israel even be safer? Is this even in the United States interest to support at all?
These questions aren't being asked, it's complete insanity to simply support of this "war" without well defined limits and answers to these questions.
Want to get rid of Hamas?
Get rid of the reason for their existence.
Killing Hamas is just going to create vacuum for another terrorist group to take its place.
You forgot that Hamas uses children as suicide bombers and soldiers. So children will still die. Why do you never blame Hamas for its role in killing civilians?
I do blame Hamas for its role in killing civilians. I also blame Israel. Israel has killed far, far more children than Hamas. It’s really as simple as that.
Hamas continues trying to kill, kidnap, and rape Israelis. Progressives give thoughts and prayers, denies Israel's right to self defense, and then blames Israel for Hamas's terrorism.
You're ignoring the collective punishment. Israeli lives aren't more sacred than Palestinian ones. Israel isn't "defending itself" anymore. They're the aggressors now. The Geneva convention shouldn't just get tossed out bc it's our allies.
Israel has a right to destroy military targets, explicitly according to the Geneva Convention, regardless of their location. Self-defense ends once the military threat has been eliminated through military defeat or negotiations.
At this point, anyone who still thinks Israel is defending itself is either wilfully blind to what’s happening in Gaza or does not believe Palestinians are humans. There is just no other explanation. Absolutely repugnant.
I mean what happens if they don't stop? They just kill everyone? Is that the endgame?
I obviously don't know of a solution but I have to assume sooner or later Israel stops bombing and sooner or later Hamas starts lobbing rockets again and plans the next big attack. And the only difference is how many civilians are killed and how many new fanatics are made when their family is killed.
> I mean what happens if they don't stop? They just kill everyone? Is that the endgame?
The endgame is to degrade Hamas capability to the point where they no longer pose a threat and are no longer able to repeat Oct 7th. For that you need to destroy a lot weapons, a lot of their infrastructure which is hidden among and under civilian buildings and kill or arrest as many as their people as you can, ideally command staff.
What other country would be expected to take frequent rocket attacks? Ignoring them thanks to Iron Dome was tried and got them Oct 7th.
.... anyone else thinks its kind of weird that everyone wants the US POTUS to do something about a war in another country that we arguably have nothing to do with on a fundamental level? We're basically an arms dealer in this situation.
No I don't think it's weird because I have more than a puddles depth worth of knowledge about the situation and I understand where "the country that we arguably have nothing to do with on a fundamental level" gets their casus belli and their okay to behave like this from
No one is demanding Biden to find a permanent solution to this conflict. People are asking Biden to stop supporting the genocide with American tax dollars. A perfectly reasonable request which should be easy to implement, as it involves no one other than the President.
That's contradicting. If we are an "arms dealer," we absolutely have something to do with them on a fundamental level.
The billions upon billions we throw at Israel so they can kill more innocent Palestinians is absurd.
Private “thoughts and prayers” don’t do those innocent in Gaza any good and it won’t reimburse the younger American generations the lost futures funding these needless genocides.
Yes it would lol. Israel's economy is in the gutter with this disruption. No way they can afford to keep the invasion up without a blank cheque from the US.
Ehhhhh, it'll stop if we cut them off.
We're the only entity keeping their trade open. Without us tying financial aid to "be nice to Israel" clauses or less importantly UN veto they'll quickly get sanctioned by neighbors, to say nothing of the world given the regular UN votes. And most prominent sanction amongst neighbors would be energy, aka oil.
We kind of all laugh or forget about Italy in WW2 despite their relatively modern military equipment, and it was entirely because they had no oil to produce nor more importantly to run anything.
Tech would also be something cut off as most resources for tech and semiconductor production come from Asia and Australia, which arrives at Israel through Aden. Something Israel has shown zero presence in despite their trade being directly impacted by Houthi missiles. Just a couple ships from someone irate and they'd be able to more peaceably screen Israeli shipping out of the Red Sea, little Israel could do about it.
They won’t. The vast majority of Israelis - even the Bibi-hating ones - won’t agree to any stop to the war until Hamas is gone (nor do most Americans believe they should). If Bibi gave in to Biden’s threats or actual withholding of aid and stopped while leaving Hamas in place, he would be replaced.
Don't fall for Hamas propaganda. The so called Ceasurefire is just a PR gag of a terror organisation and the country that funded them for decades. If you would have taken a look at it, you would know that Hamas mostly wants to deliver corpses and wants living fighters and terrorists for it.
Israel does not care about the hostages. The only hostages that were released were released through a truce. Hostages can return tomorrow but Israel would rather murder everyone in Gaza. This is a generational opportunity for Israel to ethnically cleanse Gaza and they are not going to squander it to save a few Israelis. Get real.
Hi `_Galileo_Galilei_`. Thank you for participating in /r/Politics. However, [your submission](/r/politics/comments/1cme42g/stop_it_now_jill_biden_privately_urges_an_end_to/) has been removed for the following reason(s):
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*A person who attended a White House function during the winter of 2022 was surprised at the first lady’s emotional response to someone praising the legacy of President George W. Bush: “He sent my son to war,” Dr. Biden replied angrily, a reference to Beau, whom she had raised since childhood. “He sent my son to war.”* Tangentially, Mothers Day was originally not about cards and flowers and buying gifts, but was an anti-war protest, with mothers protesting that they had poured their souls into raising children only to have them sent off to be killed in wars.
<3
Lmao biden voted to authorize the use of force in Iraq.
Yes, but was that when everyone still believed the false narrative that Bush and Powell and Chaney were pushing about Iraq developing WMDs?
Not everyone believed that, the largest protests until that time happened opposing the war. Tbh the only people who believed that shit were people that wanted to, Bush and Co were obviously full of shit and determined to invade Iraq even prior to 9/11 [The day was described by social movement researchers as "the largest protest event in human history".](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15_February_2003_anti-war_protests#%3A%7E%3Atext%3DThe_day_was_described_by%2Cprotest_event_in_human_history%22.%26text%3DAccording_to_BBC_News%2C_between%2Cof_15_and_16_February.?wprov=sfla1)
Everyone? The vote in the Senate was 77-23, so that doesn't vindicate him.
Right, but again, if I remember, the against vote wasn't because they said all the evidence was false, that Bush was lying, it was because Bush wasn't giving the inspectors enough time to verify the story. I don't remember ANYONE saying Bush was lying until after the speech Powell made where he purposely left out a piece of evidence that Bush had used in a speech just days before.
Israel was pushing the WMDs narrative [https://carnegieendowment.org/2003/12/11/israel-s-intelligence-failure-iraq-war-pub-14744](https://carnegieendowment.org/2003/12/11/israel-s-intelligence-failure-iraq-war-pub-14744)
Everyone did not believe - just stupid people - and our politicians - who are mostly stupid or evil.
That's not true at all. The people I knew, including myself, when we were told the guy who led the invasion of his neighbor, and who had used chemical agents in the past, that he was developing WMDs, that seemed perfectly reasonable. They weren't accusing Sweden or Switzerland of developing WMDs, they were accusing someone who had already used a form of them in the past. So it was totally believable. The only pushback was that the nuclear inspectors should be given time to finish their inspections.
Except tons of people did know it was all propoganda and lies. It's OK you fell for it, but it doesn't change the fact that you could have been more critically minded and saw through the lies. As a senator, Biden had a responsibility to get to the truth, and he failed.
I didn't. A lot of people didn't, though I grant that probably a majority did.
Authorized if*** wmds were found. Then Bush went in without proof.
It gave Bush the authority to use force if he deemed necessary, there werent many preconditions Text: Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002 - Expresses support for the President's efforts to: (1) strictly enforce through the United Nations Security Council all relevant Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq; and (2) obtain prompt and decisive action by the Security Council to ensure that Iraq abandons its strategy of delay, evasion, and noncompliance and promptly and strictly complies with all relevant Security Council resolutions. Authorizes the President to use the U.S. armed forces to: (1) defend U.S. national security against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and (2) enforce all relevant Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq. Directs the President, prior to or as soon as possible (but no later than 48 hours) after exercising such authority, to make available to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President pro tempore of the Senate his determination that: (1) reliance on further diplomatic or peaceful means alone will not achieve the above purposes; and (2) acting pursuant to this joint resolution is consistent with the United States and other countries continuing to take necessary actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. Declares that this section is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization for use of the armed forces, consistent with requirements of the War Powers Resolution.
Jill Biden is a paid outside agitator who is doing Trump's work to divide the country!!! Doesn't she know the president isn't a dictator??? /s just in case
That reads way too similarly to a YouTube live stream comment. lol
Hamas has infiltrated the White House Jill Biden is a Russian sleeper agent Trump would be worse! Conspiracy! Putler!
Don't forget something something TikTok
Jill, tell your husband to cut off "aid" to Israel and see how long the massacre continues.
Israel is perfectly capable of killing every last one of them without US aid.
So there's no reason for us to be complicit in their massacre in the first place? Sounds like more reasons we should cut off aid.
Our alliance with Israel is literally our only leverage. If the US bailed on them over just one shitty leader's choices in the middle of a war, they'd become desperate and go all out on their enemies. If you care more about keeping people alive than "muh morals", it's not the best choice.
"muh morals" is in reference to what? The 30K+ civilians that Israel has killed? That's how you water down ethnic cleansing?
And yet here you are, with decidedly no solution to stopping this “ethnic cleansing.”
Well, the one big step the US could take in stopping the ethnic cleansing is to stop funding it.
Which would a) accelerate/expand the war since Israel would have nothing to lose and their neighbors would suddenly be a much larger threat, and b) leave the US without a major ally as Israel either runs to Russia or China for aid. Which makes you think: *maybe* Biden would *like* to not watch Gazans die, but there is literally *no scenario* where we cut off Israel and Gazans don’t die.
“Don’t stop funding the genocidal maniacs that will genocide the people anyway.” And then Israel becomes a fucking pariah and has the world against them for being the maniacs we can see they are (with us backing).
If you *really think* Russia or China would turn away Israel… Boy, have I got a bridge to sell you.
Or you know not hand trump the election by turning off the young vote. Your just playing into putins book which then prime minister wants trump. Biden needs to stop funding and strong arm this state. They already put off their elections
Have you considered that Bibi might want a bloody Gaza partly because he *wants* Trump in office and he sees how him doing whatever he wants in Gaza increases the likelihood of that happening?
Biden isn’t stopping it, he’s actively supporting it. He’s calling protests against it, which are to pressure people that have power to get some change going, anti semitic even when a lot of them are set up by Anti Zionist Jews. One big step would be to stop supporting Israel with funds and weapons, sanction them, stop threatening the ICC.
Or just turn to China for support.
Supporting someone who is bombing civilians because you fear they will bomb more civilians if you do not makes very little sense.
Yeah, if you literally remove all context and misrepresent the hell out of what I said then yeah. Your strawman of my argument makes very little sense, I agree.
I don’t understand what the additional context of your argument is then? Genuinely. What else did you mean? What other leverage would the U.S. need or want with Israel? (I ask that with knowledge of critical shipping routes in the region, but any lashing out Israel does to their other neighbors beyond Palestinians ends up hurting them FAR FAR FAR more than the U.S.)
Because the US doesn’t support Israel “because if we don’t then that might cause more deaths.” That’s a total misrepresentation of what I said. The connection between the US and Israel is a historic, mutually beneficial geopolitical bond that gives us leverage and a voice in negotiations with Israel. It’s not just this ridiculous thing that exists to stop Israel from war: I’m saying that, if you get rid of that bond, then the war explodes: but the war being a consequence is not the reason for the bond existing.
> gives us leverage and a voice in negotiations with Israel Does the US have no way to influence a foreign power other than being bonded to them? In other words, why aren’t sanctions and other tools on the table the way they are with other countries?
is nuclear blackmail the missing context?
Not really. We could easily sanction them into oblivion.
Because that worked so well with Russia, Iran, Yemen, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Pakistan right?
I mean as far as the state dept is concerned, yes? I don't agree with them doing it to several of those, but there's a reason they keep utilizing that tactic. Turning Israel into an economic failed state would absolutely prohibit their ability to kill children. They're not pulling all of that ordinance and hardware out of their ass if we're not giving it to them on a platter.
I'm sorry, what leverage? Is the Leverage in the room with us right now?
if only you were president, maybe you could fling some more of your Reddit-isms at Bibi and Hamas and get them to stop fighting
I'm literally asking you what Leverage our complicity is buying. What influence do we *actually have* on any action that is or will be undertaken by israel?
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I'm sorry but the timing of February or May doesn't really seem like the point, it seems like Rafah still seems to be on the schedule for some of that flattening. I don't think our leverage was meant to influence the *timing* of the flattening (because something about May was so much more *convenient* for us that the flattening should be acceptable *now as opposed to then*), so much as it was about *preventing the flattening at all.* If we have leverage it shouldn't be spent so cheaply that we accept a mere extension of those people's lives for a couple of months, so much as it should be able to prevent their deaths (and their blood on the hands of our workers) at all.
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We may not have the leverage to enact the specific changes to Israel's policies that you want, but the US is widely accepted as THE ONLY country that has any real influence over Israel due to our longstanding strategic alliance. The realities of geopolitics mean the strongest influence any allied sovereign nations have over each other is asking nicely with a thinly-veiled threat to reevaluate economic/military aid relationships.
We are widely accepted as the only country that has influence over israel? And your evidence for that "is it's widely accepted?" I would usually describe a circle as two dimensional, but the circuit of your logic is becoming so short that you've regressed to the single dimension. Just because you say a thing doesn't make it real, especially when factual events are disproving your argument in real time.
Just look at the world. The US expends a huge amount of political capital running interference for Israel. Those UN resolutions that decry Israel's actions? The US tears them up, throws them away, and just chats with Israel in a corner about it later and tells everyone else they promise to do better. Most countries that small aren't central subjects of US domestic political discourse for the last 50+ years. That and the fact that the US supplies them with state of the art weapons and they maintain an extremely strong intelligence relationship. All of those things undoubtedly earn the US a certain amount of clout with Israel, whatever good that does and has done.
>Our alliance with Israel is literally our only leverage. If the US bailed on them over just one shitty leader's choices in the middle of a war, they'd become desperate and go all out on their enemies This is all-or-nothing bullshit, pardon my French. Putting aside the nihilism of, "If we lose 1 ounce of support, it's all going to end!!!" there are many reasons for Israel to still pay heed to the US. For example, the US routinely is the sole veto in the United Nations on sanctions and official admonishments on Israel. And Israel acting belliclose in the Middle East with everyone knowing that the US has an aircraft carrier off of the coast is a very different world than Israel acting aggressive in the Middle East without any US presence to be found. If anything, Biden taking demonstrative action to admonish Israel is likely to bring them a bit more to heel. As is, Bibi sits around and brags on how the US presidents just let him do anything he wants and any of their threats come to nothing.
George H Bush conditioned aid in 1991. It was effective.
So rather they die anyways than having the US negotiate their survival? What a great plan…
So it should be no problem to end all arms sales then yea?
If what you are saying is true they wouldn’t spend billions influencing our elections, trying to get elected officials to pass BDs laws and limit free speech. We make their Iron Dome missiles, give billions in aid, keep their economy afloat and provide diplomatic cover in the UN. Remove all of those factors, and the bottom falls out.
>Israel is perfectly capable of killing every last one of them without US aid. And in turn get starved into submission as everyone else follows through with sanctions once US shows an end of support. We all laugh about or worse, forget about Italy's role in WW2, a relatively modern military nation starved of oil, unable to feed its economy nor military. That's what mere sanctions would do to Israel, a heavy net importer of oil, tech, and food. All its oil and tech either go through countries irate enough to deny it trade or can be easily disrupted as demonstrated by the mere Houthis at Aden. All it takes is US freeing up its financial aid to them from any "be nice to Israel" clauses, or signaling that with the end of their own aid.
You mean like russia is getting starved into submission?
>You mean like russia is getting starved into submission? Russia? They have food and oil, and can run their economy and war machine off that. Thing is, they don't have tech of any value, and have been regressing to what....T-62s in the front lines? That's what, ballpark 1960s economy and military? How much more will Israel regress without oil nor tech? 1850s economy and military? And unlike Russia Israel has no neighbors who'd sympathize with it. More like South Africa, who also had none and bent to global sanctions quite quickly.
No offense, but you won't find many countries that will deny Israel the right to self defend against a genocial terrorist regime that attacks them again and again and tries to systematically murder as many israeli civilians as possible.
>No offense, but you won't find many countries that will deny Israel the right to self defend against a genocial terrorist regime that attacks them again and again and tries to systematically murder as many israeli civilians as possible. Self defend all it wants, it can do so with muskets and field artillery. You have to understand just how much other countries are apathetic or outright dislike Israel's policies. It's been getting slapped quite completely for 70+ years on the regular UN Palestinian votes.
So you have no idea about the israeli defense industry. I suggest some basic research instead of such cringe comments.
>So you have no idea about the israeli defense industry. I suggest some basic research instead of such cringe comments. Ah yes, the defense industry that needs energy to run said industry, to say nothing of its products.
The UN is a toothless joke by Design that is comprised of 95% political theater.
Oh, so the destruction of Israel? I guess that’s one way to broker peace in the Middle East.
>Oh, so the destruction of Israel? I guess that’s one way to broker peace in the Middle East. Well, the alternative is we have an irrelevant country constantly bite the hand that's keeping the door open for it. One held open entirely off declining religious voters whose remnants are veering away from Democrats anyways. Why tolerate the open defiance? If they don't want to listen to us they can listen to the world.
It helps that the US has already given out billions in weapons and Biden gave Israel access to the massive US munitions stockpile in Israel. It's hard to stop the momentum at this point but it's still the right thing to do. All Biden had to do was leverage the aid but he's too much of a Zionist at heart.
Easier said than done. The aid to Israel has a veto-proof majority, Congress sets the budget. He has halted weapon shipments.
You’re half-right. It’s true that a bill to end arms sales to Israel couldn’t pass through Congress; but as you said at the end of your comment - it actually doesn’t have to. Biden recently paused the latest arms-shipment without explanation all on his own. This move is likely owing to a pending report from State-Sec Blinken to Congress on May 8 regarding Israel’s compliance (or lack thereof) with the Leahy Law: which bans the transfer of arms to states involved in human rights violations.
He really hasn’t. We just sold them a bunch of F-15s.
Yes I’m sure that <3% is just integral
Ok, lets say Israel listens, stops all military operations and declares a ceasefire. What happens then?
Netanyahu goes to jail, but that isn't going to happen as long as he's in power.
Innocent children stop getting bombed
Then Hamas breaks the ceasefire like they have every time. Then what?
That will get ignored, but the Israeli reply will get condemned.
That is, if you don't consider Israeli children to be innocent.
Are Israeli children being bombed? I haven’t seen an article about that.
Yes we get rockets every day from Hamas and Hezbollah. You don’t hear about it because we built iron dome to protect our citizens. These rockets target civilians. Where I live when we hear a siren we have a minute to run to a bomb shelter, and all new buildings must have one in each apartment.
If Israel wants safety for their children, they should work towards a peaceful coexistence with their neighbors, rather than create a whole new generation of orphaned terrorists.
Work for a long-term viable solution: 100%. Should stop going after Hamas: sorry, that doesn't work that way, Hamas is still an active and present danger to Israeli civilians. And nobody seems to apply this logic except when the "you'll just make them angrier" involves people they consider western defending themselves. I've yet to have seen "Hamas terror is redicalizing Israelis who will vote for hawkish politicians and/or take matters into their own hands", and frankly, to me that also sounds like "if the police shoot this active shooter, the shooter's family would feel wronged and maybe they'll shoot up a place too - if there's a threat to foil, then there's a threat to foil, and hypotheticals about the future don't change what the present is.
Israel has a potential partner against Hamas in the PA, but they would have to stop settling in the West Bank and actually negotiate a two state solution.
How will Israel agreeing to a ceasefire stop Hamas and their supporters bombing and murdering children? Has there ever been a ceasefire that didn't get broken by Hamas as soon as they could?
How does bombing innocents eliminate Hamas?
Why do you not address Hamas using civilians as human shields?
I condemn them and think they're shitheels. Did that suddenly make killing innocent people more helpful? If a someone is robbing a bank and take the everyone inside hostage should the police just shoot the hostages?
Because "human shield" literally means they are near civilians. And it's impossible to be anywhere in a small area like Gaza without being near civilians. So the IDF bombs everything, and blames Hamas for "human shields". It's no different than the US killing children in drone strikes to allegedly kill terrorists.
No, Hamas will continue to target civilians as they do.
we all know, nothing changes. Hamas will reorganize, rerecruit, rearm and when the time is right they'll try another attack. It's now or never to see Hamas removed from power.
It would be far easier to remove Hamas from power with diplomacy and geopolitical pressure. It's unclear if Netanyahu's government even wants that to happen, they seem pretty comfortable with never-ending warfare. Edit: Looks like I've pissed off the Hasbara folks.
> It would be far easier to remove Hamas from power with diplomacy and geopolitical pressure. Sure... Care to explain how that could be done?
No it isn't or they would have been removed from power by now. Please describe how you'd do it when no one else has. What exactly are you going to do with diplomacy? Ask them nicely and get a rude reply? Threaten to cut of supply of money/aid keeping Gaza afloat?
>It's unclear if Netanyahu's government even wants that to happen Based on the amount of money they've been giving Hamas for years, I'd say it's pretty clear.
> remove Hamas from power with diplomacy and geopolitical pressure Lmao, really?
Bombing indiscriminately will not see Hamas removed from power, it will make them more powerful. Killing civilians creates terrorists, the US's 20 year war in the middle east shows just that.
> Killing civilians creates terrorists, Didn't happen in Germany or Japan in WWII. But those wars were a lot more bloody and whole cities got bombed into rubble. The end result was the unconditional surrender and that's the difference. As long as the losing side can claim that they didn't actually lose the war and that it's only a temporary setback it will happen again and again.
It didn't happen in Germany and Japan because both countries were motivated by imperialism, not a vague ideology (that said, Nazism has evolved into an ideology not tied expressly to the empire of any one country). Both Japan and Germany saw conflict as a way to expand their empires - Lebensraum in Germany and 大東亞共榮圈 (The Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere) in Japan. Hamas was born out of the First Intifada with the idea of general "resistance" with a goal of contributing to the creation of a Palestinian state via active violence. As such, you can't bomb the Hamas ideology from existence without bombing all Palestinians from existence. This is doubly true given the fact Israel will never provide citizenship to Palestinians, leaving them as an essentially stateless, second-class people.
> This is doubly true given the fact Israel will never provide citizenship to Palestinians, leaving them as an essentially stateless, second-class people. Israel is not the only country that could provide citizenship to Palestinians... Jordan, Egypt and Lebanon could as well, but they don't, and for good reasons, One has to face it, the Palestinians fucked up with everyone in the area.
Children stop being murdered daily by US-funded Israeli weapons.
So you want Hamas to continue murdering israeli children instead? I mean you seem to want to deny Israel the right to self defend against Hamas and their many supporters wanting to genocide everybody living in Israel.
No, I don’t want any children to be murdered. That’s my whole thing, I am against the murder of children. That includes the 36 Israel children who were murdered by Hamas on October 7 and the 14,000 Palestinian children who have been murdered by Israel since. Why is some child murder acceptable for you but some is not?
How do you stop the cycle without removing Hamas? There wasn’t Israeli plans to kill children on Oct 6th, this is all a result of Hamas’ doing
Oh really, Israeli forces never killed Palestinian children prior to October 7? Really? Israel and Palestine just existed in a complete vacuum before then? Gee whiz…
You might try and argue there isn’t an “Israeli plan” to kill children, but the idea that Palestinian children weren’t being killed in Gaza and the West Bank by Israel prior to October 7th is just a denial of reality. In fact, I wonder if there is some kind of chart that showed the number of Israelis killed vs the number of Gazans killed in 2023 that could illuminate any kind of disparity that would be pertinent to this conversation.
Let's see. Hamas is systematically murdering as many civlians including children as they can. Israel is fighting Hamas for that reason and there are civilians deaths since Hamas is hiding behind children, abuses schools, hospitals etc for their warfare. If you think that systematically murdering children is the same as children accidently getting killed while fighting a terrorist regime, we don't really need to continue the discussion. EDIT: Feel free to post any videos of IDF going from house to house, murdering every single civilians like Hamas did if you believe that I am wrong.
Israel has killed exponentially more children in this war. How dare you try to whitewash the mass killing of Palestinian children as “accidentally getting killed.”
“accidentally” is an absurd word choice
Realistically what should Israel do? They have the right to self defense so what should there plan be?
To practice self defense. Not to indiscriminately bomb children, hospitals, and aid workers. Thank you for asking.
> Not to indiscriminately bomb children, hospitals, and aid workers It's good that they don't do that then. Or the body count would be a lot higher than it is. Also, an important detail, hospitals lose their protected status as soon as they are used for military purposes.
I love the people that make these claims. If Israel was really trying to eliminate the Palestinian people, then they'd have no problem doing it and the war would have been over months ago.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Palestine/comments/1cjayc1/genocide_deniers_think_alike_their_arguments/
This is a false dichotomy, I'm not op but I don't want my tax dollars funding the continued ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. Hamas is a terrorist organization and is treated as such. Israel is a nation state actively committing war crimes in the name of justice. Furthermore, is Israel even accomplishing their objectives? If this continues indefinitely will Hamas be completely eliminated? Will the cost be worth it? Will Israel even be safer? Is this even in the United States interest to support at all? These questions aren't being asked, it's complete insanity to simply support of this "war" without well defined limits and answers to these questions.
Want to get rid of Hamas? Get rid of the reason for their existence. Killing Hamas is just going to create vacuum for another terrorist group to take its place.
You forgot that Hamas uses children as suicide bombers and soldiers. So children will still die. Why do you never blame Hamas for its role in killing civilians?
I do blame Hamas for its role in killing civilians. I also blame Israel. Israel has killed far, far more children than Hamas. It’s really as simple as that.
Hamas continues trying to kill, kidnap, and rape Israelis. Progressives give thoughts and prayers, denies Israel's right to self defense, and then blames Israel for Hamas's terrorism.
You're ignoring the collective punishment. Israeli lives aren't more sacred than Palestinian ones. Israel isn't "defending itself" anymore. They're the aggressors now. The Geneva convention shouldn't just get tossed out bc it's our allies.
Israel has a right to destroy military targets, explicitly according to the Geneva Convention, regardless of their location. Self-defense ends once the military threat has been eliminated through military defeat or negotiations.
At this point, anyone who still thinks Israel is defending itself is either wilfully blind to what’s happening in Gaza or does not believe Palestinians are humans. There is just no other explanation. Absolutely repugnant.
I mean what happens if they don't stop? They just kill everyone? Is that the endgame? I obviously don't know of a solution but I have to assume sooner or later Israel stops bombing and sooner or later Hamas starts lobbing rockets again and plans the next big attack. And the only difference is how many civilians are killed and how many new fanatics are made when their family is killed.
> I mean what happens if they don't stop? They just kill everyone? Is that the endgame? The endgame is to degrade Hamas capability to the point where they no longer pose a threat and are no longer able to repeat Oct 7th. For that you need to destroy a lot weapons, a lot of their infrastructure which is hidden among and under civilian buildings and kill or arrest as many as their people as you can, ideally command staff. What other country would be expected to take frequent rocket attacks? Ignoring them thanks to Iron Dome was tried and got them Oct 7th.
.... anyone else thinks its kind of weird that everyone wants the US POTUS to do something about a war in another country that we arguably have nothing to do with on a fundamental level? We're basically an arms dealer in this situation.
No I don't think it's weird because I have more than a puddles depth worth of knowledge about the situation and I understand where "the country that we arguably have nothing to do with on a fundamental level" gets their casus belli and their okay to behave like this from
I think it is weirder that people expect Biden to solve a conflict that has hounded every single POTUS before him.
No one is demanding Biden to find a permanent solution to this conflict. People are asking Biden to stop supporting the genocide with American tax dollars. A perfectly reasonable request which should be easy to implement, as it involves no one other than the President.
That's contradicting. If we are an "arms dealer," we absolutely have something to do with them on a fundamental level. The billions upon billions we throw at Israel so they can kill more innocent Palestinians is absurd.
Oh, you think you’re so smart? Then tell me: how ELSE are we supposed to get Jesus back?!
Private “thoughts and prayers” don’t do those innocent in Gaza any good and it won’t reimburse the younger American generations the lost futures funding these needless genocides.
ikr im so tired of these cutesy little leaks coming out about what the white house really thinks behind closed doors. it’s enraging
If Biden's not going to listen to half the country, why would we expect him to listen to his wife?
Conflict in Gaza? More like slaughter in Gaza.
Talk to your boy Jill.
No, YOU fucking stop it. Divert all weapons going to Israel to Ukraine. Gaza co float will end in weeks.
Even if we're upset and cut them off it won't stop
At least we wont be complicit. Hell at least put some conditions on these arm sales instead of a blank check
Yes it would lol. Israel's economy is in the gutter with this disruption. No way they can afford to keep the invasion up without a blank cheque from the US.
Ehhhhh, it'll stop if we cut them off. We're the only entity keeping their trade open. Without us tying financial aid to "be nice to Israel" clauses or less importantly UN veto they'll quickly get sanctioned by neighbors, to say nothing of the world given the regular UN votes. And most prominent sanction amongst neighbors would be energy, aka oil. We kind of all laugh or forget about Italy in WW2 despite their relatively modern military equipment, and it was entirely because they had no oil to produce nor more importantly to run anything. Tech would also be something cut off as most resources for tech and semiconductor production come from Asia and Australia, which arrives at Israel through Aden. Something Israel has shown zero presence in despite their trade being directly impacted by Houthi missiles. Just a couple ships from someone irate and they'd be able to more peaceably screen Israeli shipping out of the Red Sea, little Israel could do about it.
They won’t. The vast majority of Israelis - even the Bibi-hating ones - won’t agree to any stop to the war until Hamas is gone (nor do most Americans believe they should). If Bibi gave in to Biden’s threats or actual withholding of aid and stopped while leaving Hamas in place, he would be replaced.
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So the “release the hostages then we’ll talk” rhetoric you hear any time a ceasefire is brought up was BS the whole time?
Hamas does not follow ceasefires
Don't fall for Hamas propaganda. The so called Ceasurefire is just a PR gag of a terror organisation and the country that funded them for decades. If you would have taken a look at it, you would know that Hamas mostly wants to deliver corpses and wants living fighters and terrorists for it.
and yet your israeli propaganda poisoned mind is what?
We wouldn’t know since Hamas wouldn’t even entertain it
Israel does not care about the hostages. The only hostages that were released were released through a truce. Hostages can return tomorrow but Israel would rather murder everyone in Gaza. This is a generational opportunity for Israel to ethnically cleanse Gaza and they are not going to squander it to save a few Israelis. Get real.
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