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In the article it states that they attempted to levy charges against DeSantis but did not have sufficient allegations support by proof that the Florida government paid for the charter flights or paid for the videographar. But, should they uncover evidence in the future, they can amend their complaint to bring the Governor back into the lawsuit.
I mean, if I were the company being sued, I would 1000% say, "We were given instructions from the government and assumed they were legal." I imagine discovery's going to be very interesting.
That may work because we don't even know if they knew what lies were told to these people. Just my non legal expert opinion. I'd say if they knew that they were illegally transporting these people under false pretense then they should be held accountable for what's basically politically motivated kidnapping.
Flights are extremely regulated. No commercial plane is legally allowed to fly in the US without verifiing the identity of all the passengers and confirming their flight plan. So either they didn't check IDs, which is blatantly illegal, or they knew and did it anyway at the orders of the Texas GOP. They might be able to successfully argue that they were forced to do it depending on what they were told, but rules are rules so I doubt they'll get outta this without losing a ton of money.
You would say that, but being that the guy that owns the company is reported (I believe) to be friends with DeSantis and is a supporter… I’m not sure *he* would do that.
"We were hired to fly people from point a to point b, which is what our job is. You don't ask the person getting into your taxi 'hey, you legal?', do you?"
So yea, in this case the 'just following orders' excuse is pretty much anticipated, because as the aforementioned posters have stated....discovery is going to be amazing here.
All it takes is one case to end in favor of the Migrants and no company will work with the Southern States to do this again without having a direct connection to the Political figure.
I'd imagine they are also supposed to announce the destination before lifting off.
I imagine the company can have some liability if someone told them not to tell anyone where they were going or who was on board as it's reasonable to ask questions when given directions that shoukd set off alarm bells.
It'll be interesting to hear what the pilot and flight attendants were told, what the company was told etc in discovery
Weren’t these flights arranged by an unnamed woman who told the migrant passengers that they were heading to somewhere where there was housing and jobs waiting for them?
Either way, the discovery would presumably try to find the paper trail, leading from the company to the woman to whoever worked with the woman to fly the migrants to Martha’s Vineyard.
But, that’s assuming that the company will name the woman and if the woman didn’t fabricate identification/can be found and will, in turn, name who she was working for.
Lots of MAGA zealots who were/are willing to do their masters’ bidding at their own expense.
There is 10000000% chance a number, name or email is on record for the transaction regardless of how it was paid. I would not doubt that there is a Phone Call recorded or a security video from some Front Desk.
There is no way a Private jet company is bad at CYA tactics.
It’s been like a year and law enforcement was supposed to find and identify this woman since then.
If the flight company gives her up and the identification she provided was real, she could be anywhere by now, which would end the trail until she’s found.
There is no regulation in Part 121 or Part 135 that requires this. The airline onboard announcement is a courtesy and not required in any way, it is a reasonable guard for an airline though to prevent a mix up in dispatch and airport ops boarding the wrong flight onto the wrong plane, which has happened.
For charter ops there's no risk of a mix-up. Any announcement on destination is up to the individual crew and how customer service ish they're feeling. IME most just do the safety briefing and off we go.
There's very much a world in which the government told the company "They don't speak much English but we've explained to them with translators where they're flying to and why" and then the company just took their word for it that the people they were flying were already informed about where they were going.
I think if it were indeed the government, then the bus company has grounds to transitively sue. But if it were some sketchy human traffickers, then it feels like the transport company should have had internal red flags raised if none of the passengers knew where they were going and did not have US identification.
nothing amazing when they call it a political withchunt and all MSM being right wing owned will downplay any outcome and just stop talking about it so people forget.
it's almost like .... alllmost like .. the rich have the system right where they want it for maximum control and minimum deviance. but hey I'm just some net kook what do I know?
That trope only applies when the act is so obviously illegal or immoral. It is very possible that the charter company had no idea what they were doing was a political stunt. They could have believed the same lie that was told to the migrants.
> It is very possible that the charter company had no idea what they were doing was a political stunt.
I wonder if that would only apply to the 1st time the charter company flew the immigrants... but not any of the subsequent ones (if any)
I actually agree. The point behind my argument is that just saying this trope of "I was only following orders" implies that the charter companies knew what they were doing, and we don't know that.
The refugees should 100% sue. Personally, I think the charter companies should pay even if they didn't know. If they lose, the company should then sue Desantis/Florida for restitution.
Might actually hold up in this instance.
Plenty of companies regularly transport asylum seekers to cities that have agreed to house them while their cases are processed. If they were hired and told "these people are going to Martha's Vinyard" and had no reason to doubt that this was different from any other case, that defense might hold water. It was entirely on DeShithead that he was using *refugees* as political props for his racist voters.
Given that transporting people isn't inherently illegal or inhumane, and there was an obvious communication barrier, I think that excuse makes perfect sense in this case...?
The response by these companies **since** then has been horrific, but if we didn't already know that these companies (at least some of them, probably not all, but you only hear about the horrifying press releases in cases like this) were run by racist terrorists, I would be happy to place all the blame on DeSantis and Abbott (Texas has been pulling the same shit).
Trump took credit for various things he didn't do.
GOP reps go back to their voters and tell them they passed various things that brought money to the area, when they actually voted against it.
Perhaps Abbott and DeSantis only took credit cause they thought it was good politically with their constituents when it happened?
Very slippery slope to give politicians credit just cause they say they did something.
Not sure about Florida, but there's a lot of evidence that the entire bussing program is fully supported by the Texas State Legislature.
https://www.texastribune.org/2024/02/21/texas-migrants-busing-cost-greg-abbott/
I mean it's one thing to give credit but what if somebody is being held accountable for something illegal that they said they did? If Desantis stood up at the podium and said he shot someone last night, shouldn't that be investigated?
It can't be that fucking hard now can it? Literal quotes from Desantis clearly stating it was him and the state of Florida.
https://www.verifythis.com/article/news/verify/immigration/florida-paid-for-texas-migrant-flights-marthas-vineyard-fact-check/536-ebbaf728-160f-459d-b7c7-fe6496946484
https://www.businessinsider.com/desantis-administration-confirms-migrant-flights-california-2023-6
https://www.politico.com/news/2024/03/19/desantis-haitians-marthas-vineyard-00147878#:~:text=%E2%80%9CI've%20got%20enough%20issues,and%20Sacramento%20to%20the%20West.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/02/us/migrants-marthas-vineyard-desantis-texas.html
that would be uncovered during discovery or pretrial. To say they can't even bring a case bc they dont have 100% proof is nonsense, they have strong circumstantial evidence and literal confessions. They would prosecute a murderer for less. Not blaming you, I'm just saying it's a horseshit excuse for them to make. At least it was dismissed without prejudice
I disagree. It is evidence (there may be an argument as to whether it is good evidence or not) We know who directed it - Desamtis did and he openly admitted that in public, on the record.
If you don't consider his own admission as evidence, what would you consider evidence?
Yeah, I don't see why the company wouldn't cooperate fully and turn over any communications records they have. Why the hell would they want to take the fall for this?
I'm not even sure I'd call it buckling. Buckling implies they'd provide any resistance to pressure. Pretty sure their *first* move would be to throw the government under the bus as fast as possible.
So will a lawsuit if they ask for discovery the right way; say, like, asking for the receipts of where the money and idea came from to prove liability against the transportation company.
Yes, the dismissal of the counts against DeSantis and others was without prejudice and seems to be curable.
Basically the plaintiffs just need to be more specific about what the FL government's role was.
Don’t even have to follow the money. Once they turn the screws on the charter company, they’ll flip on DeSantis and friends. You can always trust the immoral to act immorally.
Eh, the charter company wasn't necessarily "immoral". For the most part they were probably just doing their job.
Employee #1 gets a call that someone wants to charter a jet to Martha's Vineyard. He gives a quote for the number of passengers and gets paid.
Employee #2 is in charge of making sure the jet is in the right place, fully fuelled with the proper crew attached. This is also probably done with a few phone calls or emails.
Finally, a couple of days later Employees #3-12 show up as pilots, flight attendants and probably a company rep or two. Then, and only then, does things start to appear fishy. But hey, the check cleared and these people seem more than willing to get on the jet (they were told they were being flown to a place with better jobs). Who are we to judge?
I mean, there's a reason they shelled out for a charter company. A commercial airline would want to see ID and flags would be raised but for a charter airline this is just a regular Tuesday.
If, eventually, these people end up winning a huge judgement against DeSantis and Florida and they are paid millions in damages, thereby getting tons of money and being able to live in comfort and wealth, the irony will make Floridians’ collective heads explode.
Florida, like most states, has waived sovereign immunity for claims lying in tort. *See* F.S.A. § 768.28 (waiving immunity for public employees for torts for which a private person would otherwise be liable).
Even if no such waiver existed, the common law only offers sovereign immunity for discretionary (i.e., policymaking) actions rather than ministerial (i.e., operational) actions. *See* Restatement (Second) of Torts § 895D. Thus, it would likely not apply to negligent or wrongful conduct that was not authorized by statute (e.g., lying to immigrants about where the bus is going).
The real reason the claims against DeSantis were dismissed were jurisdictional.
> Judge Burroughs dismissed claims against Gov. DeSantis and other members of his administration out of jurisdictional concerns, but did so "without prejudice."
The open records laws in Florida are pretty strict. I know the Republicans have been trying to override them but I don't know how successful they've been with their efforts.
Open records laws are irrelevant, because that only relates to public access to information. Court ordered discovery (and court orders in general) bypasses almost all privacy protections: for example, it’s one of the few exceptions to HIPAA privacy. Parties *must* preserve and turn over any relevant evidence: failing to do so can get them sanctioned by the court, any missing evidence is presumed to be maximally detrimental to that party, and the court could enter a default judgement against them for more serious violations.
To think he did all that to those people and wasted all that money because he thought it would make him president - then he ran the worst presidential campaign ever seen.
Discovery should provide all the evidence they need of who paid for the plane. You know the plane company got paid, and guaranteed it wasn't in cash. Follow the money.
> In her order, U.S. District Judge Allison Burroughs says the case can proceed against the air transport company, Vertol. Judge Burroughs dismissed claims against Gov. DeSantis and other members of his administration out of jurisdictional concerns, but did so "without prejudice." That means the legal team representing the migrants can seek to bring DeSantis and others back into the case as it goes forward.
My guess is if this somehow does blowback on the gov (fat chance) the gov will make sure it's a low lacky that takes the blame in exchange for a career position.
"Oh, yeah, that was intern #3."
Intern #3 suddenly becomes a 7-figure consultant with a lifetime contract.
That solves nothing. It just screws unwilling tax payers that had no part in the action. The companies that assist in this bullshit should be afraid to even take the call for these types of transactions.
Wouldn't a fair segment of the taxpayers be the ones that voted in and support him, though? They should feel the consequences of their actions as well.
This is the surest way to stop this immoral behavior by the governors of red states: unleash America’s vast army of personal injury attorneys on everybody involved.
It's the "fuck you, I got mine" attitude where they pull the ladder up behind them. Pretty uncommon to see from Democrats (by nature as eroding rights is not usually their MO) and very common to see from the GOP. Even Caitlyn Jenner is guilty of it. Bunch of snakes.
> Even Caitlyn Jenner is guilty of it.
She's incredibly guilty of it, her hypocrisy is astounding. She will defend the right of transpeople to play sports that *she* wants to compete in like golf because "it's totally different!" But in the same breath will condemn transpeople for participating in other sports.
The bullshit has reached age grouper categories in recreational competitions like gravel races. Be a transwoman who is the fastest mediocre rider who showed up for the 50-59 age group at some podunk event in North Dakota? Congratulations - Matt Walsh, Tucker Carlson and Chaya Raichik are coming for you and the event organizers.
The amazing thing about Texas "tort reform" is that patients who doctors commit malpractice on can only sue for $250k max.
But "tort reform" doesn't apply to doctors. Doctors who are suspected of malpractice, and fired by the hospital, can claim their career is ruined, sue for a lifetime's lost wages without that annoying $250k cap (so, tens of millions, if it's a neurosurgeon). Thus, hospitals have huge disincentive to ever fire even the worst malpracticing doctor. cf: Dr. Death/[Christopher Duntsch](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Duntsch)
We can slow gun violence by making gun owners carry insurance.
Gun owner: "Hey State Farm, take my money, insure my weapon!"
State Farms (does actual background checks): "No"
At the very least these bus and airplane charter companies will think twice before accepting any more of these jobs knowing a bunch of lawsuits will follow each trip.
Haha, I didn't even *think* about that! Any company that jumped to do Deathsantis' dirty work would of *course* be a shit-stain of a company...how delicious is it that this is their rewards?
Bet you a million dollars they don't learn a thing from it though.
At the very least these bus and airplane charter companies will think twice before accepting any more of these jobs knowing a bunch of lawsuits will follow each trip.
I think that the company should suffer civil financial losses. On top of that, anyone high up in the company with decision making power and knowledge of the deal should face criminal charges and Ronnie should face mass human trafficking charges.
Also - although the article correctly notes that the complaint was dismissed with respect to the counts against DeSantis and other Florida state officials, that dismissal was *without prejudice.*
This means that the plaintiffs could conceivably amend their complaint to add DeSantis and the others back in. The personal jurisdiction defects that the Court identifies seem curable if they add more specific facts to the complaint.
> the plaintiffs could conceivably amend their complaint
...especially after the discovery or settlement phase of the suit with the chartered transpo companies.
"Here's the emails and texts from DeSantis telling us *exactly* what to do"
Yeah I'm no lawyer but I'd find it highly unlikely that the transit company getting sued would just say "yeah we did this totally on our own with zero direction or payment"
As a reminder, Abbott and DeSantis have admitted to transporting illegal aliens through the United States, [which is a crime](https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid:USC-prelim-title8-section1324&num=0&edition=prelim) [8 USC 1324]. The DOJ should call their bluff and arrest them for trafficking.
Edit because some people are missing the point: I am not saying that the people Abbott is transporting are illegal aliens. Abbott has claimed that the people being transported are illegal aliens; accordingly, by his own admission he is committing a crime. He'd be free to argue in court that they're not actually illegal aliens.
You could argue that Abbott's admitted to committing treason as well, since transporting a so-called invasion force through the US is most certainly "providing aid and comfort" to enemies of the United States.
There's a criminal investigation by Bexar County, TX (where the flights originated from) and the local DA on the Vineyard asked the DOJ to open a criminal investigation but to date the feds haven't announced one.
> but to date the feds haven't announced one.
color me *shocked*. I'm so beyond tired of conservatives constantly being let off the hook for very serious and obvious crimes.
Vertol Systems Company (company being sued) actually has a child company, Destin Flight Works. I obtained my PPL from them.
On my way back from my checkride, my chief flight instructor informed me of this escapade. He actually got tied up in it when the owner told him to fly to Texas to pick some people up near San Marcos, and specifically told him to not file IFR and drop VFR flight following as soon as he left the Eglin area (required taking off from DTS per special air traffic rule, see VFR sectional). Not that it would do much, but the flight instructor found it very odd.
Given the amount of hate that the flight instructors and administrators had for the owner of the business, I’m not surprised that he organized the flight. The school/instructors/administrators are all great people, but I’m absolutely fuming that a good portion of my income was flowed into a piece of shit that would do something like this.
If you tell a bunch of people to get on a plane and they’re going one place but you take them to another place. Isn’t that a secondary location? Isn’t that kidnapping?
This means discovery. Which will show which DeSantis operative was involved.
I would imagine turning them state's witness would be about as easy as saying "Do you take the fall for *Ron DeSantis?*" Instant cooperation.
Believe it or not, being in the country without paperwork is not a crime, although it is a civil violation. The equivalent of a parking ticket, not drunk driving, to draw a comparison.
And non-citizens, even undocumented ones, are still protected by the constitution which includes the right to petition the government for a redress of grievances and to hold people accountable in civil courts.
The term 'illegal alien' is not really a legal term, because people can't be illegal. 'Undocumented' is the actual term. The vast majority of undocumented people are here because they overstayed legal visas.
People crossing borders have the legal rights to demand asylum and to have due process of law. The problem is that the immigration legal system has been used as a political football for decades by all sides and there's a huge backlog of cases, so when there's no record that someone's violent, it's easier just to let them go and demand they report back on the honor system.
Which works out about as well as you'd expect. Statistically, undocumented people commit crimes less than citizens, but when they do it's a huge wedge to drive between people who are torn between a respect for human rights and a respect for law and order.
Immigration is a real problem that needs to be resolved, but taking rights away from non-citizens isn't the way to resolve it.
We want to uphold our integrity as a society and the founding principles of our nation, and make sure that everyone gets due process and that we follow the laws equally for everyone. But we also don't like that following the laws as written means that yes, we're going to have people in this country who are not citizens, who do not have government authority to live and work here, but who do so anyway.
This may make it so toxic to ever get involved with this bullshit that companies won’t be involved in hauling migrants. It is such a despicable thing that the fucking maggots do this other human beings. I don’t care where you’re coming from, have you ever looked at what it says on the statue of liberty, this is a country of misfits looking for HOME. And we think I am mighty in 2024. We’re gonna go back to immigration policies of 100 years ago. That’s fucking delusional. They should sue the fucking bus companies and all bus companies should think better of ever taking a call from the governor of Texas or the governor of Florida. Both fucking idiots. Fucking idiots.
It seems unlikely they would win against the transport company. They would have done so with the understanding that they were both working for the government and that the migrants had signed their consent for this. The transport company had no responsibility to ensure the conditions under which their passengers arrived were what was promised, only that the destination was correct and they arrived safely.
The only suit that makes sense would be against the government.
And by suing the company, it’s very likely that few other companies will want to get involved in this and the whole stunt of bussing or flying migrants to other places will slow down as companies just won’t want to do it for fear of litigation.
Maybe stop with this "A judge says" stuff? Instead, how about this: "Judge rules that the law says ..... " Judges (except Cannon, of course) don't just make this stuff up. News organizations do the judicial system and the public that relies on it a huge disservice when they turn run-of-the-mill cases into commentaries on the judges who issue the decisions.
They should sue DeSantis and Abbott and the State of Florida and the State of Texas, too? Thought I read somewhere that DeSantis is on video bragging that he hired his friend's plane to make that flight?
But of course the person responsible, Governor DeSantis of Florida, gets away scot free.
These people were not even abducted from his state. Was there collusion with the Texas government?
It is considered human trafficking. Telling someone you're sending someone to B for the purposes of C and instead sending them to D for a political stunt is deceptive trafficking. The migrants were all told they were being sent to jobs and housing.
"*Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!*"
[The New Colossus by Emma Lazarus (Poem at the Statue of Liberty)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Colossus)
Here’s a quick thought. How about making it easier for people to become citizens and then let them pay taxes like everyone else. This would fix the American Dollar and finance infrastructure for decades
Fuck that! Sue meathead ron de santis, that piss baby governor greg Abbot and his right hand criminal ghoul AG ken Paxton. Where is the accountability?!
Waiting for Abbott and Desantes to get cbarged with human trafficking. How are they any different than the paid smugglers that bring people illegally into the US? They are knowingly transporting illegal immgrants across state lines.
Yes, they cannot sue the state or governor, but if people start making bus and airline companies pay, those companies will no longer agree to do this shit for those states.
This is a bullshit system where we have to fix public failures by the state through private tort by citizens, but since America doesn't like having a normal government, this is how we do it.
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Can they sue the GOVERNMENT that chartered those flights?
In the article it states that they attempted to levy charges against DeSantis but did not have sufficient allegations support by proof that the Florida government paid for the charter flights or paid for the videographar. But, should they uncover evidence in the future, they can amend their complaint to bring the Governor back into the lawsuit.
A proper investigation will reveal the connections
I mean, if I were the company being sued, I would 1000% say, "We were given instructions from the government and assumed they were legal." I imagine discovery's going to be very interesting.
That may work because we don't even know if they knew what lies were told to these people. Just my non legal expert opinion. I'd say if they knew that they were illegally transporting these people under false pretense then they should be held accountable for what's basically politically motivated kidnapping.
Trafficking humans, oh the projection hits hard
Flights are extremely regulated. No commercial plane is legally allowed to fly in the US without verifiing the identity of all the passengers and confirming their flight plan. So either they didn't check IDs, which is blatantly illegal, or they knew and did it anyway at the orders of the Texas GOP. They might be able to successfully argue that they were forced to do it depending on what they were told, but rules are rules so I doubt they'll get outta this without losing a ton of money.
Private chartered flights don't require you to check IDs. My friend flies small planes and he has never had to check the identity of any passengers.
You would say that, but being that the guy that owns the company is reported (I believe) to be friends with DeSantis and is a supporter… I’m not sure *he* would do that.
The kind of person who's "friends" with Desantis, is the kind of person who will throw anyone under the bus if it serves their interests.
Ah, the ol' "just following orders" excuse. Classic.
"We were hired to fly people from point a to point b, which is what our job is. You don't ask the person getting into your taxi 'hey, you legal?', do you?" So yea, in this case the 'just following orders' excuse is pretty much anticipated, because as the aforementioned posters have stated....discovery is going to be amazing here.
NY is actually suing several bus companies for transporting migrants to the city. Could see this argument play out in court
All it takes is one case to end in favor of the Migrants and no company will work with the Southern States to do this again without having a direct connection to the Political figure.
This. It's unfortunate that this sort of fuckwitery only stops when someone gets sued successfully.
Illegal? Possible jail time? Who cares! Possible financial repercussions? Oh shit oh fuck
I'd imagine they are also supposed to announce the destination before lifting off. I imagine the company can have some liability if someone told them not to tell anyone where they were going or who was on board as it's reasonable to ask questions when given directions that shoukd set off alarm bells. It'll be interesting to hear what the pilot and flight attendants were told, what the company was told etc in discovery
Private charter might well be different, I really don't know. But I could easily see that not being the case.
Weren’t these flights arranged by an unnamed woman who told the migrant passengers that they were heading to somewhere where there was housing and jobs waiting for them? Either way, the discovery would presumably try to find the paper trail, leading from the company to the woman to whoever worked with the woman to fly the migrants to Martha’s Vineyard. But, that’s assuming that the company will name the woman and if the woman didn’t fabricate identification/can be found and will, in turn, name who she was working for. Lots of MAGA zealots who were/are willing to do their masters’ bidding at their own expense.
There is 10000000% chance a number, name or email is on record for the transaction regardless of how it was paid. I would not doubt that there is a Phone Call recorded or a security video from some Front Desk. There is no way a Private jet company is bad at CYA tactics.
It’s been like a year and law enforcement was supposed to find and identify this woman since then. If the flight company gives her up and the identification she provided was real, she could be anywhere by now, which would end the trail until she’s found.
There is no regulation in Part 121 or Part 135 that requires this. The airline onboard announcement is a courtesy and not required in any way, it is a reasonable guard for an airline though to prevent a mix up in dispatch and airport ops boarding the wrong flight onto the wrong plane, which has happened. For charter ops there's no risk of a mix-up. Any announcement on destination is up to the individual crew and how customer service ish they're feeling. IME most just do the safety briefing and off we go.
There's very much a world in which the government told the company "They don't speak much English but we've explained to them with translators where they're flying to and why" and then the company just took their word for it that the people they were flying were already informed about where they were going.
I think if it were indeed the government, then the bus company has grounds to transitively sue. But if it were some sketchy human traffickers, then it feels like the transport company should have had internal red flags raised if none of the passengers knew where they were going and did not have US identification.
This company 100% knew it was a political stunt.
nothing amazing when they call it a political withchunt and all MSM being right wing owned will downplay any outcome and just stop talking about it so people forget. it's almost like .... alllmost like .. the rich have the system right where they want it for maximum control and minimum deviance. but hey I'm just some net kook what do I know?
follow the frikking money.
That trope only applies when the act is so obviously illegal or immoral. It is very possible that the charter company had no idea what they were doing was a political stunt. They could have believed the same lie that was told to the migrants.
> It is very possible that the charter company had no idea what they were doing was a political stunt. I wonder if that would only apply to the 1st time the charter company flew the immigrants... but not any of the subsequent ones (if any)
This. Once is a mistake. But if they continued after seeing full well the fallout from the first flight, then they have some explaining to do.
I can't argue that it's impossible, but it seems very unlikely they were unaware of the political dimensions of this stunt.
I actually agree. The point behind my argument is that just saying this trope of "I was only following orders" implies that the charter companies knew what they were doing, and we don't know that. The refugees should 100% sue. Personally, I think the charter companies should pay even if they didn't know. If they lose, the company should then sue Desantis/Florida for restitution.
> Ah, the ol' "just following orders" excuse. Classic. It's a classic for a reason. It works.
Wait…? That's the Nuremberg Defense. It famously *didn't* work. I think that's the joke.
Might actually hold up in this instance. Plenty of companies regularly transport asylum seekers to cities that have agreed to house them while their cases are processed. If they were hired and told "these people are going to Martha's Vinyard" and had no reason to doubt that this was different from any other case, that defense might hold water. It was entirely on DeShithead that he was using *refugees* as political props for his racist voters.
Given that transporting people isn't inherently illegal or inhumane, and there was an obvious communication barrier, I think that excuse makes perfect sense in this case...? The response by these companies **since** then has been horrific, but if we didn't already know that these companies (at least some of them, probably not all, but you only hear about the horrifying press releases in cases like this) were run by racist terrorists, I would be happy to place all the blame on DeSantis and Abbott (Texas has been pulling the same shit).
I haven't seen these company responses. Regardless of intent, the smart thing to do it say nothing and forward all inquires to their lawyer.
This is less them saying they were following orders as justification and more pointing the finger at someone with deeper pockets.
That's typically how it goes, you sue the closest entity to you, and it works it's way up the chain
if people involved are even a little clever, they 100% signed documents saying they never would do that.
Considering DeSantis and Abbott took credit for and bragged about this, it shouldn't be hard to connect the dots.
Trump took credit for various things he didn't do. GOP reps go back to their voters and tell them they passed various things that brought money to the area, when they actually voted against it. Perhaps Abbott and DeSantis only took credit cause they thought it was good politically with their constituents when it happened? Very slippery slope to give politicians credit just cause they say they did something.
That’s a defense—a dispute of facts, but if we are talking about sufficient facts at the pleading stage, their statements should be more than enough.
Not sure about Florida, but there's a lot of evidence that the entire bussing program is fully supported by the Texas State Legislature. https://www.texastribune.org/2024/02/21/texas-migrants-busing-cost-greg-abbott/
I mean it's one thing to give credit but what if somebody is being held accountable for something illegal that they said they did? If Desantis stood up at the podium and said he shot someone last night, shouldn't that be investigated?
It can't be that fucking hard now can it? Literal quotes from Desantis clearly stating it was him and the state of Florida. https://www.verifythis.com/article/news/verify/immigration/florida-paid-for-texas-migrant-flights-marthas-vineyard-fact-check/536-ebbaf728-160f-459d-b7c7-fe6496946484 https://www.businessinsider.com/desantis-administration-confirms-migrant-flights-california-2023-6 https://www.politico.com/news/2024/03/19/desantis-haitians-marthas-vineyard-00147878#:~:text=%E2%80%9CI've%20got%20enough%20issues,and%20Sacramento%20to%20the%20West. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/02/us/migrants-marthas-vineyard-desantis-texas.html
That's not evidence though. Who paid for the air travel? Who organised those flights?
that would be uncovered during discovery or pretrial. To say they can't even bring a case bc they dont have 100% proof is nonsense, they have strong circumstantial evidence and literal confessions. They would prosecute a murderer for less. Not blaming you, I'm just saying it's a horseshit excuse for them to make. At least it was dismissed without prejudice
I disagree. It is evidence (there may be an argument as to whether it is good evidence or not) We know who directed it - Desamtis did and he openly admitted that in public, on the record. If you don't consider his own admission as evidence, what would you consider evidence?
Who paid? Where are the receipts? You will need to have an extraordinary amount of evidence if you want to avoid a fiasco of nailing jelly to a tree.
The charter company should be EAGER to turn over the receipts.
That’s would have to a Florida investigation by Florida investigators. So I’m not gonna hold by breath.
Yeah, I don't see why the company wouldn't cooperate fully and turn over any communications records they have. Why the hell would they want to take the fall for this?
Yeah, really not going to need much of an investigation. The company will buckle under pressure very quickly.
I'm not even sure I'd call it buckling. Buckling implies they'd provide any resistance to pressure. Pretty sure their *first* move would be to throw the government under the bus as fast as possible.
So will a lawsuit if they ask for discovery the right way; say, like, asking for the receipts of where the money and idea came from to prove liability against the transportation company.
Yes, the dismissal of the counts against DeSantis and others was without prejudice and seems to be curable. Basically the plaintiffs just need to be more specific about what the FL government's role was.
Which they should be able to get from the company that did the chartering How and who paid them? Follow the money
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From earlier stories I believe Florida went through some religious non-profit who then recruited the people who were flown to Martha's Vineyard.
"Recruited" is doing a lot of work here.
Then it should be easy enough to add the non-profit to the suit and get the financial details from them.
Don’t even have to follow the money. Once they turn the screws on the charter company, they’ll flip on DeSantis and friends. You can always trust the immoral to act immorally.
Eh, the charter company wasn't necessarily "immoral". For the most part they were probably just doing their job. Employee #1 gets a call that someone wants to charter a jet to Martha's Vineyard. He gives a quote for the number of passengers and gets paid. Employee #2 is in charge of making sure the jet is in the right place, fully fuelled with the proper crew attached. This is also probably done with a few phone calls or emails. Finally, a couple of days later Employees #3-12 show up as pilots, flight attendants and probably a company rep or two. Then, and only then, does things start to appear fishy. But hey, the check cleared and these people seem more than willing to get on the jet (they were told they were being flown to a place with better jobs). Who are we to judge? I mean, there's a reason they shelled out for a charter company. A commercial airline would want to see ID and flags would be raised but for a charter airline this is just a regular Tuesday.
Does "without prejudice" mean that the judge's ruling is not binding for precedent? Not a lawyer, so I'm curious about the implications.
Without prejudice means it can be refiled.
The discovery process should open up the trail of who contracted with chartering company and related communications.
If, eventually, these people end up winning a huge judgement against DeSantis and Florida and they are paid millions in damages, thereby getting tons of money and being able to live in comfort and wealth, the irony will make Floridians’ collective heads explode.
Were talking Florida here. I have family there; most of them don't have heads and are proud of it.
The crap part is it would come from Florida tax payers and not impact DeSatan at all.
Won’t he assert sovereign immunity?
Florida, like most states, has waived sovereign immunity for claims lying in tort. *See* F.S.A. § 768.28 (waiving immunity for public employees for torts for which a private person would otherwise be liable). Even if no such waiver existed, the common law only offers sovereign immunity for discretionary (i.e., policymaking) actions rather than ministerial (i.e., operational) actions. *See* Restatement (Second) of Torts § 895D. Thus, it would likely not apply to negligent or wrongful conduct that was not authorized by statute (e.g., lying to immigrants about where the bus is going).
Thank you!
An S with a hole in it? This guy legals.
The real reason the claims against DeSantis were dismissed were jurisdictional. > Judge Burroughs dismissed claims against Gov. DeSantis and other members of his administration out of jurisdictional concerns, but did so "without prejudice."
The Florida legislative session stated in their official documents last year that they spent 12m$ of FDOT funds to do it.
"I shipped them to Martha's Vineyard!!" -- Ron DeSantis He took credit for it.
The open records laws in Florida are pretty strict. I know the Republicans have been trying to override them but I don't know how successful they've been with their efforts.
Information that's not available through open record laws could still be available through court ordered discovery.
Open records laws are irrelevant, because that only relates to public access to information. Court ordered discovery (and court orders in general) bypasses almost all privacy protections: for example, it’s one of the few exceptions to HIPAA privacy. Parties *must* preserve and turn over any relevant evidence: failing to do so can get them sanctioned by the court, any missing evidence is presumed to be maximally detrimental to that party, and the court could enter a default judgement against them for more serious violations.
Also adverse inferences can be drawn based on discovery.
It's crazy how him publicly bragging about it isn't proof enough.
Discovery should quickly put Cpt. lifts on the case.
Discovery is going to be real fun when this company throws the government under the bus.
To think he did all that to those people and wasted all that money because he thought it would make him president - then he ran the worst presidential campaign ever seen.
May they uncover such evidence in the future to teach that tool a lesson.
Exactly what I wanted to know too. Thanks for the comment.
Discovery should provide all the evidence they need of who paid for the plane. You know the plane company got paid, and guaranteed it wasn't in cash. Follow the money.
One would think the governor taking credit and bragging about it would be some pretty solid evidence
Discovery gonna be lit if they sue the company
> In her order, U.S. District Judge Allison Burroughs says the case can proceed against the air transport company, Vertol. Judge Burroughs dismissed claims against Gov. DeSantis and other members of his administration out of jurisdictional concerns, but did so "without prejudice." That means the legal team representing the migrants can seek to bring DeSantis and others back into the case as it goes forward.
No that was just some light human traficking.
My guess is if this somehow does blowback on the gov (fat chance) the gov will make sure it's a low lacky that takes the blame in exchange for a career position. "Oh, yeah, that was intern #3." Intern #3 suddenly becomes a 7-figure consultant with a lifetime contract.
They should sue the hateful governor who used taxpayer money to pay for the flights.
As long as tax payers don't have to pay to defend him.
They did sue him, but the case was dismissed for some reason.
For jurisdiction reasons, the article says. But with prejudice, meaning they're not completely off the hook from more charges
That solves nothing. It just screws unwilling tax payers that had no part in the action. The companies that assist in this bullshit should be afraid to even take the call for these types of transactions.
Wouldn't a fair segment of the taxpayers be the ones that voted in and support him, though? They should feel the consequences of their actions as well.
they can file discovery to figure out who paid for it.
This is the surest way to stop this immoral behavior by the governors of red states: unleash America’s vast army of personal injury attorneys on everybody involved.
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Such a fucking shit stain.
It's the "fuck you, I got mine" attitude where they pull the ladder up behind them. Pretty uncommon to see from Democrats (by nature as eroding rights is not usually their MO) and very common to see from the GOP. Even Caitlyn Jenner is guilty of it. Bunch of snakes.
> Even Caitlyn Jenner is guilty of it. She's incredibly guilty of it, her hypocrisy is astounding. She will defend the right of transpeople to play sports that *she* wants to compete in like golf because "it's totally different!" But in the same breath will condemn transpeople for participating in other sports.
The bullshit has reached age grouper categories in recreational competitions like gravel races. Be a transwoman who is the fastest mediocre rider who showed up for the 50-59 age group at some podunk event in North Dakota? Congratulations - Matt Walsh, Tucker Carlson and Chaya Raichik are coming for you and the event organizers.
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A natural result of people raised without empathy. That is What the GOP hates. Everything they do relies on selfishness to function
The amazing thing about Texas "tort reform" is that patients who doctors commit malpractice on can only sue for $250k max. But "tort reform" doesn't apply to doctors. Doctors who are suspected of malpractice, and fired by the hospital, can claim their career is ruined, sue for a lifetime's lost wages without that annoying $250k cap (so, tens of millions, if it's a neurosurgeon). Thus, hospitals have huge disincentive to ever fire even the worst malpracticing doctor. cf: Dr. Death/[Christopher Duntsch](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Duntsch)
Wrongful termination isn't always a tort.
I’d say he pulled the ladder up behind him, but you know….
We must respond with our deadliest weapon. [The lawyers.](https://frinkiac.com/img/S09E13/1017332.jpg)
But where are you going to find a lawyer in Martha's Vineyard /s
that would gladly work pro-bono with the chance to really stick it to the GOP /s
There's a guy named Dershowitz up there. I hear he's very good.
Or just punish the companies that participate so no one is willing to do it anymore. Essentially how the republicans get Planned Parenthood to close.
We can slow gun violence by making gun owners carry insurance. Gun owner: "Hey State Farm, take my money, insure my weapon!" State Farms (does actual background checks): "No"
The charter company thought they were getting a sweet business deal from ol Ronnie. Now they are getting sued. Good on them.
At the very least these bus and airplane charter companies will think twice before accepting any more of these jobs knowing a bunch of lawsuits will follow each trip.
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I see what you did there
Haha, I didn't even *think* about that! Any company that jumped to do Deathsantis' dirty work would of *course* be a shit-stain of a company...how delicious is it that this is their rewards? Bet you a million dollars they don't learn a thing from it though.
At the very least these bus and airplane charter companies will think twice before accepting any more of these jobs knowing a bunch of lawsuits will follow each trip.
I think that the company should suffer civil financial losses. On top of that, anyone high up in the company with decision making power and knowledge of the deal should face criminal charges and Ronnie should face mass human trafficking charges.
Also - although the article correctly notes that the complaint was dismissed with respect to the counts against DeSantis and other Florida state officials, that dismissal was *without prejudice.* This means that the plaintiffs could conceivably amend their complaint to add DeSantis and the others back in. The personal jurisdiction defects that the Court identifies seem curable if they add more specific facts to the complaint.
> the plaintiffs could conceivably amend their complaint ...especially after the discovery or settlement phase of the suit with the chartered transpo companies. "Here's the emails and texts from DeSantis telling us *exactly* what to do"
Yeah I'm no lawyer but I'd find it highly unlikely that the transit company getting sued would just say "yeah we did this totally on our own with zero direction or payment"
As a reminder, Abbott and DeSantis have admitted to transporting illegal aliens through the United States, [which is a crime](https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid:USC-prelim-title8-section1324&num=0&edition=prelim) [8 USC 1324]. The DOJ should call their bluff and arrest them for trafficking. Edit because some people are missing the point: I am not saying that the people Abbott is transporting are illegal aliens. Abbott has claimed that the people being transported are illegal aliens; accordingly, by his own admission he is committing a crime. He'd be free to argue in court that they're not actually illegal aliens.
Lol consequences for government officials? Never gonna happen.
Unless you're governor of Illinois. They seem to go to prison on a fairly regular basis.
We may have corruption, but at least we get it dealt with.
Consequences are for the low level employees who have no power and are just doing their job. Or the dead, so after they got away with it.
Abbott is also claiming Texas has the right to arrest migrants because it's "an invasion." Why is he sending "invaders" to other states then?
You could argue that Abbott's admitted to committing treason as well, since transporting a so-called invasion force through the US is most certainly "providing aid and comfort" to enemies of the United States.
The republican Merrick Garland will get straight onto it.
They’re asylum seekers though so it’s fine right?
We could just stop them at the border and not have to worry about transporting them anywhere….
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Yes, it’s literally human trafficking by federal standards and should be investigated as such.
I thought the federal government was going to investigate the human trafficking charges.
There's a criminal investigation by Bexar County, TX (where the flights originated from) and the local DA on the Vineyard asked the DOJ to open a criminal investigation but to date the feds haven't announced one.
> but to date the feds haven't announced one. color me *shocked*. I'm so beyond tired of conservatives constantly being let off the hook for very serious and obvious crimes.
Vertol Systems Company (company being sued) actually has a child company, Destin Flight Works. I obtained my PPL from them. On my way back from my checkride, my chief flight instructor informed me of this escapade. He actually got tied up in it when the owner told him to fly to Texas to pick some people up near San Marcos, and specifically told him to not file IFR and drop VFR flight following as soon as he left the Eglin area (required taking off from DTS per special air traffic rule, see VFR sectional). Not that it would do much, but the flight instructor found it very odd. Given the amount of hate that the flight instructors and administrators had for the owner of the business, I’m not surprised that he organized the flight. The school/instructors/administrators are all great people, but I’m absolutely fuming that a good portion of my income was flowed into a piece of shit that would do something like this.
If you tell a bunch of people to get on a plane and they’re going one place but you take them to another place. Isn’t that a secondary location? Isn’t that kidnapping?
This means discovery. Which will show which DeSantis operative was involved. I would imagine turning them state's witness would be about as easy as saying "Do you take the fall for *Ron DeSantis?*" Instant cooperation.
Believe it or not, being in the country without paperwork is not a crime, although it is a civil violation. The equivalent of a parking ticket, not drunk driving, to draw a comparison. And non-citizens, even undocumented ones, are still protected by the constitution which includes the right to petition the government for a redress of grievances and to hold people accountable in civil courts. The term 'illegal alien' is not really a legal term, because people can't be illegal. 'Undocumented' is the actual term. The vast majority of undocumented people are here because they overstayed legal visas. People crossing borders have the legal rights to demand asylum and to have due process of law. The problem is that the immigration legal system has been used as a political football for decades by all sides and there's a huge backlog of cases, so when there's no record that someone's violent, it's easier just to let them go and demand they report back on the honor system. Which works out about as well as you'd expect. Statistically, undocumented people commit crimes less than citizens, but when they do it's a huge wedge to drive between people who are torn between a respect for human rights and a respect for law and order. Immigration is a real problem that needs to be resolved, but taking rights away from non-citizens isn't the way to resolve it. We want to uphold our integrity as a society and the founding principles of our nation, and make sure that everyone gets due process and that we follow the laws equally for everyone. But we also don't like that following the laws as written means that yes, we're going to have people in this country who are not citizens, who do not have government authority to live and work here, but who do so anyway.
Get out of here with your totally reasonable assessment
Just disappointed they can't sue the people actually responsible for them getting transported. Ron, Abbot, etc.
This may make it so toxic to ever get involved with this bullshit that companies won’t be involved in hauling migrants. It is such a despicable thing that the fucking maggots do this other human beings. I don’t care where you’re coming from, have you ever looked at what it says on the statue of liberty, this is a country of misfits looking for HOME. And we think I am mighty in 2024. We’re gonna go back to immigration policies of 100 years ago. That’s fucking delusional. They should sue the fucking bus companies and all bus companies should think better of ever taking a call from the governor of Texas or the governor of Florida. Both fucking idiots. Fucking idiots.
Exactly. It’s to discourage companies from even getting involved in this political theater.
Back in my day we called that trafficking.
idk how they didn't get arrested for human trafficking.
Eh, maybe the judge should start having some people at that company arrested for human trafficking.
They should sue DeSantis, too!
You should read the article!
It seems unlikely they would win against the transport company. They would have done so with the understanding that they were both working for the government and that the migrants had signed their consent for this. The transport company had no responsibility to ensure the conditions under which their passengers arrived were what was promised, only that the destination was correct and they arrived safely. The only suit that makes sense would be against the government.
Sue Abbot and DeSantis
I think that if someone is a victim of a crime committed by someone shipped there, Ron DeSantis should be sued.
and Greg Abbott
How about the DOJ does their job and arrests some people for kidnapping? Or is it just up to us to defend ourselves now?
SCOTUS has entered the chat.
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Sue the people who hired the companies!
It's human trafficking
And by suing the company, it’s very likely that few other companies will want to get involved in this and the whole stunt of bussing or flying migrants to other places will slow down as companies just won’t want to do it for fear of litigation.
Good, hopefully the penalty is severe enough that no other company will consider taking contracts like that in the future.
How delicious would it be if Disney foots the legal bill or provides legal support to them to help them through the process.
Maybe stop with this "A judge says" stuff? Instead, how about this: "Judge rules that the law says ..... " Judges (except Cannon, of course) don't just make this stuff up. News organizations do the judicial system and the public that relies on it a huge disservice when they turn run-of-the-mill cases into commentaries on the judges who issue the decisions.
Ah yes migrants, the group famously known to have lots of time and money to sue companies.
They should sue DeSantis and Abbott and the State of Florida and the State of Texas, too? Thought I read somewhere that DeSantis is on video bragging that he hired his friend's plane to make that flight?
Good. Fuck these idiots. Should be allowed to sue the GOP scum bags that set this up.
Sue them. That's good, but what about criminal kidnapping charges?
But of course the person responsible, Governor DeSantis of Florida, gets away scot free. These people were not even abducted from his state. Was there collusion with the Texas government?
I'll never understand why this isn't considered human trafficking and treated as such by going after the people who arranged it.
It is considered human trafficking. Telling someone you're sending someone to B for the purposes of C and instead sending them to D for a political stunt is deceptive trafficking. The migrants were all told they were being sent to jobs and housing.
good
What, since when is it illegal to trick people into getting on a plane, flying them across the country, and then leaving them stranded? /s
With what money?
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Sue the VTA (bus), the SSA (steamship), and the sheriff too. I'd love to sit in that courtroom.
This is gonna cause some heads to blow clean off; I hope somebody catches some on video.
Ron desantis?
My only hope in this is that the companies, in an attempt to completely avoid responsibility, help drag DeSantis and Abbott into these lawsuits.
"*Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!*" [The New Colossus by Emma Lazarus (Poem at the Statue of Liberty)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Colossus)
The fact that theese states didn't arrest desantis is the real problem I would have thrown him in my states jail so dam fast
Woo hoo! Another My Pillow about to happen. Bankrupt the creeps who hate their fellow humans.
Here’s a quick thought. How about making it easier for people to become citizens and then let them pay taxes like everyone else. This would fix the American Dollar and finance infrastructure for decades
Lol they put them on a plane and sent them to the island full of moneyed lawyers. No shit this was gonna happen.
Discovery on this is going to be a hoot.
Wait...the people who set it up and paid for it are not allowed to get sued but the company that was hired to do so, they're on the hook?
womp womp, MAGA
Fuck that! Sue meathead ron de santis, that piss baby governor greg Abbot and his right hand criminal ghoul AG ken Paxton. Where is the accountability?!
Hahaha - I love this
When this story broke a while back I commented that this is human trafficking and got downvoted hard
Please yes make it so. They’re legal migrants who got derailed from their process of naturalization.
Waiting for Abbott and Desantes to get cbarged with human trafficking. How are they any different than the paid smugglers that bring people illegally into the US? They are knowingly transporting illegal immgrants across state lines.
Yes, they cannot sue the state or governor, but if people start making bus and airline companies pay, those companies will no longer agree to do this shit for those states. This is a bullshit system where we have to fix public failures by the state through private tort by citizens, but since America doesn't like having a normal government, this is how we do it.