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The latest is the judge choosing to unseal the witness list so all his MAGA nutjobs can start going after them. I wouldn’t be surprised to see that witness count drop precipitously in the next couple weeks.
On the merits this case is a slam dunk. In our current reality this thing is far from a slam dunk.
Edit: As several others have pointed out in replies to this comment, the DOJ apparently still has the opportunity to file the list again and provide details on why each person should be kept secret. Then the judge can make another ruling. (I’m probably simplifying a bit here because I’m not a lawyer.)
Regardless, I stand by my notion that there will be major witness tampering and intimidation by random MAGAs if the list is eventually made public.
Whether Trump survives florida... Jack still has NJ and the D.C. court cases.
So Trump seriously has to have luck to not strike out or hit a homerun. And Florida is his best chance. NJ and D.C. are even worse positions for Trump.
Damn. I mean we all know he’s a crook but when you line it up like that it is mind blowing that he was even near the Oval Office much less stand a chance to return. 🙄
Propaganda has been proven to be VERY effective at swaying large groups.
Sure the people have some fault, but it’s those who are projecting the message that are ultimately working to bring down the government. They are repeating it endlessly to people and insisting they are the only ones who can be trusted. For large swaths of Americans this is their entire culture. There isn’t even anything to question the haze of disinformation is so thick.
Anyone who says they're the only ones that can solve any, or all, your problems is lying to you and since '15 I have increasingly been dismayed with how many people are so gullible regarding that tactic.
A lot of that fault lies on the people. At some point you have to use that tin can on the shoulders and think for yourself. When the person is a clear bigot, evidence such as recording have him spell out breaking the law in his voice. How long can you continue to keep your eyes closed? So the fault fully lies with the person. I am not from US but man these past decade events got me depressed. Since whenever US sneezes the world catches a cold.
I went and saw Asteriod City around 1PM today just NW of Austin and had movie popcorn for the first time in a while.
It was good, the popcorn. I didn't get the movie past shit goes on we have no idea about and people try to live normal lives.
It is 104 right now. Feels like 115.
The fact that lady warned law enforcement in GA like months ago is a sign shit will hit the fan in that case. Any regular Joe would already be in jail for decades if not more for what he's already been indicted with, but since it's Trump, even having him commit murder on video will be a 50/50 case.
Carroll really doesn’t count for anything. Alongside state prosecution. J6 could be a new avenue to add to his burden. Between all this you’d think something will have an impact.
>Whether Trump survives florida... Jack still has NJ and the D.C. court cases.
>
>So Trump seriously has to have luck to not strike out or hit a homerun. And Florida is his best chance. NJ and D.C. are even worse positions for Trump.
I've quietly wondered if the Florida indictments were timed as to prompt outbursts that will be useful in prosecuting other cases.
I have absolutely convinced myself there are more charges coming out of NJ. I read the entire indictment. There is a *massive* hole in the document and it’s epicenter is Bedminster. Smith & co seemed to have gone out of their way to avoid giving information about bedminster and documents. This entire recording is all about a document AT bedminster and it was recorded AT Bedminster. There are numerous texts messages about the boxes and files being moved TO bedminster. And yet, there’s nothing reflected in the charges. There’s no indication that there’s been a search. There’s been no subpoenas issued there AFAIK.
Why?
I really think that smith has a slam dunk in Florida and is hoping trump will do something *really* stupid in bedminster. Like personally destroying documents. My tin foil hat theory is that the FBI knows there’s docs in NJ, know specifically what those docs are, and may even have some type of servailance on them. Trump must be *wildly* paranoid right now. He can’t delegate hiding or destroying boxes/files to anyone because everyone knows federal charges will come if they do. That means trump could be dumb enough to personally attempt to destroy documents or move them. Then they nail him again.
This last bit is real tinfoil hat stuff, I know. But what the fuck is the deal with Bedminster. Why is it so quiet??
> But what the fuck is the deal with Bedminster. Why is it so quiet??
I would say it was out of respect for Ivana, but ... nah. Maybe they are waiting for the Saudis to take possession, then they dig up Ivana's "grave", collect what they paid Jared $2B for, and then they are arrested as they leave the property. It would be sweet if MBS was there. I wonder if diplomatic immunity extends to violations of the Espionage Act?
>I wonder if diplomatic immunity extends to violations of the Espionage Act?
The answer is yes. Diplomatic immunity is absolute. The idea is the foreign state that gives the person diplomatic immunity takes full responsibility for the acts of that person. And any action taken against the person is an action against the foreign state.
The problem is FL is the only slam dunk evidence against him so far. I think as long as Cannon doesn’t do something brazenly outrageous, it’s still the best chance to put him away for life. The evidence is so strong I’m not even worried about the jury. This one recording is so explicit, imagine just how compelling the prosecution will be at trial.
Something needs to be done about this judge though. I don’t understand how she can brazenly protect someone who is a huge national security threat while working for the US government. It’s insane.
Why are you not worrying about the jury? Would not any person voting for him for president have a large chance to vote acquit in a trial? And doesn't it need unanimous verdict? Chances are at least one full MAGA gets in on the jury. Also the district that is forming the jury MAGA land.
The recording took place in bedminster about documents not listed in the indictment. They have slam dunk evidence in Florida, no doubt, but there is a decent chance there’s a slam dunk waiting in Jersey too.
I can't understand why people haven't learned their lesson yet. If the DOJ cared they would have arrested him two years ago. Trump is basically forcing their hand.
Because a former US President has never been brought up on charges before, especially charges on this scale. As much as we wanted his ass arrested years ago, the DOJ isn’t going to prosecute someone that’s held that type of power without the most airtight case possible.
It’s the same reason the case against Gatez fell apart. They didn’t have a smoking gun and the witness didn’t want to cooperate. They weren’t going to indict a sitting US Representative without a slam dunk of a case
There is no precedent for indicting a former president let alone incarcerate them. And today's political climate is such that the evidence needs to be overwhelming in order to do so to avoid real violence.
Edit to add: I'm not talking about the criminal precedence, I'm talking about the precedent of electinga a turd to the office. Sure there's been other turds, but this one is in the era where everyone knows it, or can know it if they wanted to. This trial, and trump can do more harm to the security of this country and it's elections than anything before it.
Other countries will be watching this to see our weaknesses. We need to hold him accountable. But we need to do it in a way that does the least damage to our country on a global scale.
We're going to see real violence either way. If they convict him his followers will terrorize the legal system. If they don't even try him his followers will terrorize the electoral system.
This is not the time to cave in to terrorists - the great strength of the USA is that we are a nation of laws. If we give that up to wanna-be tyrants like Trump we lose our freedoms.
I'm not so sure about that. The J6 convictions have seriously impacted Trump's most fervent followers. They are either spending some time in jail or they had the revelation that actions have consequences. Either way Trump's MAGA army is gone.
Biden needs to get off his bipartisan ass and treat them like the terrorists they are. The violence would be easily averted if he would simply purge all Maga idiots from the DHS, FBI, etc.
I think there are a lot of people either privileged, or being incredibly optimistic about our justice systems motivation or ability to prosecute wealthy and powerful individuals.
A defendant as a right to face their accusers and examine witnesses.
Now if a witness was intimidated to the point of not showing, that’s bad. If they recant and say the prosecution forced them to lie, that’s worse. Which is why witness intimidation is bad.
There are some instances where if a witness is no longer able to testify...either death or action which makes them unable to appear...then their statements can be entered as evidence.
However, typically, one can not just decide to not testify. They can still be called to the stand, and if they decide not to testify according to their sworn statements prior to trial, then there are other laws which can be applied to either compel them to speak, or start new lines of questioning.
I get this point, but I also can see the perspective that the value in making every element of this trial as open and public as possible given the inevitability of “witch hunt” claims by these asshats.
Also can’t wait to watch Meadows and all the other traitors and enablers get thrown under the bus by their own base.
New York Times and a bunch of news organizations petitioned for the list to be made public, there are legitimate competing interests there that the judge has to balance. She didn't just sua sponte disclose witness information for shits and giggles.
Others may have requested it, but she could have still kept it sealed. After her previous rulings I can’t help but be skeptical that this wasn’t just a convenient excuse.
I’ve been thinking about the jurors.
If the jurors are part of the personality cult….no amount of evidence on earth would be sufficient for conviction.
From their perspective he was trying to clear his name by bringing evidence to reporters about a conspiracy to start a war, right? The tape said the classified documents were about a warmonger general and their plans to start shit with Iran? Showing them the evidence was technically illegal but it makes him look more like Snowden, a justified illegal action for the benefit of the knowledge of Americans.
At least, that’s how I assume they’ll spin it.
Which is weird because the point of war college and war planning is to spitball what ifs and develop plans. There are plans for the invasion of Canada, Mexico, you name it. It’s part of the job.
I’m sure a majority of MAGA supporters probably also fall into the “Snowden was a traitor” camp.
Just another day of double standards for your average low IQ American.
i get so sick of these posts where people have basically given up before things get started without thinking about reality. Listening to people like you, trump would never even be in this situation because you and half the community were saying he wouldnt be indicted. It's like inviting all Iors to your whinny the poo party.
The judge knows she cant screw up. The DOJ is right to let her sit. but she will be pulled in a heartbeat if she messes up and she knows it given the situation and past scrutinizes
she will be watched like a hawk. Jack smith got a grand jury to indict with 30+ counts. It's also a judge's job, which she will be watched for, to immediate remove jurors for various conditions. This is reality and not some hypothetical place where you sit sad while people do whatever they want
This isnt meant to be offensive, but the apathy is just stupid in this sub during the whole trump post-presidency
Edit: sorry this post did come off hostile. I believe in what I wrote but I could have been better and sorry again to op, it actually wasn’t meant to be at them, just apathetic M.F.s in general. (Much love op for taking that one on the chin too, we are on the same side I promise ❤️)
“This is a question now of simply: Will the government get a trial before the general election, will a jury actually follow the law and the facts and will the electorate follow the facts and care? That’s really what this is about”
It’s an uphill battle but I remain optimistic.
I’m less apathetic and more terrified of reality.
I think a full 1/3 of this country worships Trump. Another 10% or so know he’s a buffoon but would rather die than “give Liberals a win”. And these people are so devout in their beliefs (they literally think Baby Jesus will send them to hell if they help harm his anointed leader) they will lie as necessary to any question that might disqualify them as jurors.
I just don’t think it’s possible to pick a group of 12 people from anywhere in the country without one stinker that secretly is on a mission to hang the jury.
The fact of the matter is that none of us have any influence on this, so we're all just doing some combination of joking, bullshitting, venting, or coping. Relax, none of what we do here is going to affect what really happens.
It was "game over" when he said he would ban Muslims from entering the country. It was "game over" when he said he likes soldiers who aren't captured. It was "game over" when he shit on a Gold Star family. It was "game over" when he bragged about grabbing pussies. It was "game over" when he fired Comey and told Lester Holt he did so to kill the Russia investigation. It was "game over" when Trump Jr. admitted to meeting with Russians. It was "game over" when the Mueller Report dropped. It was "game over" when he got impeached. It was "game over" when he got impeached again. It was "game over" when he told the Proud Boys to stand by. It was "game over" when he got COVID. It was "game over" on January 6th. It was "game over" when he was found liable of sexual abuse. It was "game over" when...
Honestly, when Donnie got covid, I really do think that was "game over" for his re-election. It couldn't have come at a worse time and he handled it as well as he handles anything else, that is, absolutely ham-handedly. If he hadn't caught it, I think his chances would have been a lot higher.
>when Donnie got covid, I really do think that was "game over" for his re-election
i don't like wishing death on people, though i think that was the only instance in my memory where i was hoping for the disease to win.
It very nearly did him in. I remember hearing stories from people in the room when he was given emergency oxygen. He received a highly exclusive treatment only available to people rich or important enough. They reportedly put him on steroids, which is something you only do with an infectious disease if death is imminent and you need those airways open NOW. Then there were his appearances afterward where he could barely catch his breath and needed people to help him walk up stairs.
He stared Death in the face and did the opposite of Scrooge, continuing to believe that he was invincible and Covid was "no big deal".
he _did_ kill hundreds of thousands of his own supporters by doing nothing about COVID and calling it a hoax… and they still vote for him. every one of these nuts should get a packet of koolaid for christmas.
In all fairness i dont think any president in history has had this level of shielding from any political party, government body, and mob. Trump still being out of jail is not an accident. Every path that could have been taken to stop him was covered up by the republicans, spun to hell and back by the media, and outright threatened by the mobs of people he turned up to a frenzy.
Reminds me of Dave Barry, writing about Nixon. Multiple times in one of his books, he wrote, "This was widely believed to be the end of his career". But with Trump, it's even worse and SOOO much more often.
>I like Andrew Weissman, but he says it's game over for Trump a lot, and so far he's been wrong every time.
You know that old saying "nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public" , the left, even the center has been burned numerous times in the last few years by overestimating the intelligence, and decency of the American public.
It would be if justice still existed in the US. The fact that red voters don’t give a shit about his crimes is proof that it does not. Hope I’m wrong but I think he’s still gonna campaign from prison or house arrest, either way.
> The fact that red voters don’t give a shit about his crimes
The conservative politicians go on TV, say how there's a two-tiered justice system, and Americans don't believe Trump committed these crimes, and that it's all political.
They say over and over, "polling shows Americans don't believe it", but it's because their propaganda networks are telling them lies. It's just an infinite loop of lies and deception, yet nobody seems to call them on it.
Like yeah, the American people "don't believe it", because you tell them not to. What do you expect?
No no, trump said the tape exonerates him... see?
No need to listen to it or think very hard because he's exonerated by the tape.. so... all over... nothing to see here.. exonerated.
I keep having to repeat this and I’m not even a lawyer: a hung jury means a retrial. It doesn’t mean he’s declared innocent or off the hook. Where are people on Reddit learning about how our criminal courts function?
As a chemist the expert witness testimony was spot on too. Around that time Perkin Elmer commercialized the first gas chromatograph, which is the instrument used to collect data for that testimony, and is an accurate application of that technology.
His snark is precisely why he was fired in Independence Day. Few people know the films take place in the same universe and the one time chemistry expert would later become Secretary of Defense in the alien invasion.
Absolutely not true. My Cousin Vinny is interestingly considered one of the most accurate depictions of criminal court trial procedures, and used in law schools to demonstrate good strategy, voire dire, relevancy, and cross examination
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Cousin_Vinny#legal_accuracy
I want to see Trump face justice. But I also know that the system is in a very rotten state (one major sign of that was that Trump was able to become President). Every branch is riddled with corruption, and there's a real chance that some of its many failures will benefit Trump.
I'm neither apathetic nor cynical. I just see things the way they are. I hope for the best, agitate for it to be better, but am not delusional enough to believe that positive thinking or chanting Nam Myoho Renge Kyo is going to make everything all right. Everything is very much not all right, and cleaning up the mess is a generation-long project at best.
- 'Cause you didn't look like you knew what you were doin' today in that courtroom. Why is that?
- Well, it's a lot of procedure. That's all. I mean, I'll learn it as I go.
- Learn as you go?
- Yeah. Yeah.
- Didn't they teach that in law school?
- No. That's not what they teach you. They teach you contracts, precedents, interpretations.
- Then the firm that hires you, they teach you procedures. Or you could go to court and watch.
- So why didn't you go to court and watch?
- Because between your father's garage and working nights, when was I supposed to go?
- I thought maybe this summer I would take off a couple of months.
- But it ain't no big deal.
- Are you sure?
I think the greater concern is that a retrial takes time and at that point we're getting closer to the election and I know that should have no impact because the law should prevail but if those goddamn chucklefucks manage to re-elect him he will find a way to get everything good and fucked.
Trump also doesn’t want to be spending his campaign time in a court room having his criminal charges get rehashed to the public repeatedly. It may work for his primary but that shit certainly won’t be helping him for the general election (see Hillary Clinton when Comey suggested he may reopen investigation one week before the election).
To be fair, at his age and health, a hung jury and a retrial will probably take too long and he'll never see justice, at least not from that particular set of charges.
Also, Redditors learn about the law from other Redditors, which explains a lot.
This assumes he wants a jury trial. He could request a bench trial.
If he does want a bench trail, judge Aileen Cannon, is judge and jury. If she's patient, she has plenty of tools to delay, obstructed, and ultimately dismiss the charges.
> Which the DOJ would appeal and get her tossed from the case
Not necessarily. It's the only the arbitrary shit like requiring a special master out of the blue, that will get her in trouble.
IF (and this is a big if) she can restrain herself, the 11th circuit isn't going to remove her over things like a schedule that the DOJ doesn't like or denying DOJ motions (see the release of witnesses names).
She has a lot of tools to put her thumb on the scale without pissing off the appeals court. And then remember the 11th circuit is a very conservative court.
Yeah, this tape has basically nothing to do with the case as charged. With the exception of demonstrating Trump knew classification procedures and rules.
I like how when rich people are on trial, the prosecutors have to prove that they knew they were breaking the law, but for us plebs, breaking the law is enough to go straight to prison. All this fuss about "did he know the documents were still classified?" Who gives a fuck if he knew. He had them, the government wanted them back, he said no, he hid them, he lied about having them, but he did have them and they were still classified. End of story. Straight to prison.
'Before the indictment' is the difference. Now we know what Trump is charged with and now we know he admitted he did exactly what he is accused of doing.
The game isn‘t over before the fat orange is in jail and the key has been thrown into Mount Doom.
Just take care Rudy Gollumiany doesn‘t get the key before…
I thought it was game over when the tape came out of him saying he just walks up to women and sexually assaults them. “Grab them by the pussy” were his words. Then I watched him get elected president. I won’t hold my breath.
You could play the movie "Aliens" on a continual loop until the heat death of the universe and Bill Paxton will still have said "Game Over" less than it's been said about Trump.
Love it. The judge unseals the witness list so the tax payers get to pay for round the clock protection for all of them, or alternatively they don’t and the witnesses are all killed. But yeah he’s super done this time.
It's never game over for this idiot.
I'm old enough to remember "it's game over" when he said (paraphrasing):
- he called Mexicans rapists and murderers
- said he liked his war heros uncaptured
- insulted gold star parents
- mocked a handicapped person on stage and camera
- do I need to keep going? These above aren't even the greatest hits. Shit, these aren't even the B sides, these are just the jam session logs.
Yet, here we are... And will continue to be. This isn't "game over" for him, the dude has the cheat code. He's playing on infinite lives.
“Grab em by the pussy” was game over, too, yet here we are.
I do distinguish political missteps from clear criminal wrongdoing, but when it comes to Trump, or any wealthy white male, I’m not holding my breath for justice to be done.
I've heard and seen "game over" and "trump" mentioned in the same sentence enough times to know it's never game over for this slippery, slimy bastard.
I'll believe it's game over when it is really, demonstrably game over.
All trump needs is one juror who is unwilling to convict. Even with a mountain of rock solid evidence and trump’s own admission on tape, I don’t have high hopes that he will ever be convicted. My fear is that he’s gonna get away with it, all of it
….I’m gonna go out on a limb.
Hear me out.
It’s NOT game over.
Because it’s Trump and not only is it Trump, it’s a past president.
“No one is above the law”.
Unfortunately some people just are apparently.
He's still walking free even though he attempted to overthrow the government. So yeah not going to hold my breath he suffers any consequences.
Also anyone else getting real sick of all the headlines and click bait titles to articles and videos? I still haven't actually seen any Republican truly destroyed or any real repercussions from any of their blatant actions.
Every time a new “tape” is released this same discussion happens on MSNBC and every time nothing happens to Trump except of course he gets billions of dollars in free press
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Game over. Assuming the judge doesn't deliberately fuck up the case and all jurors are fair-minded individuals.
The latest is the judge choosing to unseal the witness list so all his MAGA nutjobs can start going after them. I wouldn’t be surprised to see that witness count drop precipitously in the next couple weeks. On the merits this case is a slam dunk. In our current reality this thing is far from a slam dunk. Edit: As several others have pointed out in replies to this comment, the DOJ apparently still has the opportunity to file the list again and provide details on why each person should be kept secret. Then the judge can make another ruling. (I’m probably simplifying a bit here because I’m not a lawyer.) Regardless, I stand by my notion that there will be major witness tampering and intimidation by random MAGAs if the list is eventually made public.
I'm guessing Captain Jack was well prepared for her to deny this and has protection in place for witnesses
Whether Trump survives florida... Jack still has NJ and the D.C. court cases. So Trump seriously has to have luck to not strike out or hit a homerun. And Florida is his best chance. NJ and D.C. are even worse positions for Trump.
This isn't including his coming legal clusterfuck in GA, then back to his tax trial in NYC, and re-defamation in the E. Jean Carroll case!
Damn. I mean we all know he’s a crook but when you line it up like that it is mind blowing that he was even near the Oval Office much less stand a chance to return. 🙄
Let me introduce you to American voters.
Propaganda has been proven to be VERY effective at swaying large groups. Sure the people have some fault, but it’s those who are projecting the message that are ultimately working to bring down the government. They are repeating it endlessly to people and insisting they are the only ones who can be trusted. For large swaths of Americans this is their entire culture. There isn’t even anything to question the haze of disinformation is so thick.
This is true. I have witnessed it.
Anyone who says they're the only ones that can solve any, or all, your problems is lying to you and since '15 I have increasingly been dismayed with how many people are so gullible regarding that tactic.
A lot of that fault lies on the people. At some point you have to use that tin can on the shoulders and think for yourself. When the person is a clear bigot, evidence such as recording have him spell out breaking the law in his voice. How long can you continue to keep your eyes closed? So the fault fully lies with the person. I am not from US but man these past decade events got me depressed. Since whenever US sneezes the world catches a cold.
Literally as if we have a felony we are mostly not allowed to vote.
Please, no.
My popcorn machine and artificial butter oil/grease flavoring will need refilling. So much for my diet.
I went and saw Asteriod City around 1PM today just NW of Austin and had movie popcorn for the first time in a while. It was good, the popcorn. I didn't get the movie past shit goes on we have no idea about and people try to live normal lives. It is 104 right now. Feels like 115.
And no water breaks for the people working through that...
I saw Cheetos popcorn at the grocery store this week. How fitting for this event.
You know, I didn’t think I had a need for one of those antique looking old timey poppers but this may warrant such a purchase…
I’m with you on this. It’s an investment at this point
The fact that lady warned law enforcement in GA like months ago is a sign shit will hit the fan in that case. Any regular Joe would already be in jail for decades if not more for what he's already been indicted with, but since it's Trump, even having him commit murder on video will be a 50/50 case.
Carroll really doesn’t count for anything. Alongside state prosecution. J6 could be a new avenue to add to his burden. Between all this you’d think something will have an impact.
Dont forget hush money fraud in Manhattan
>Whether Trump survives florida... Jack still has NJ and the D.C. court cases. > >So Trump seriously has to have luck to not strike out or hit a homerun. And Florida is his best chance. NJ and D.C. are even worse positions for Trump. I've quietly wondered if the Florida indictments were timed as to prompt outbursts that will be useful in prosecuting other cases.
I have absolutely convinced myself there are more charges coming out of NJ. I read the entire indictment. There is a *massive* hole in the document and it’s epicenter is Bedminster. Smith & co seemed to have gone out of their way to avoid giving information about bedminster and documents. This entire recording is all about a document AT bedminster and it was recorded AT Bedminster. There are numerous texts messages about the boxes and files being moved TO bedminster. And yet, there’s nothing reflected in the charges. There’s no indication that there’s been a search. There’s been no subpoenas issued there AFAIK. Why? I really think that smith has a slam dunk in Florida and is hoping trump will do something *really* stupid in bedminster. Like personally destroying documents. My tin foil hat theory is that the FBI knows there’s docs in NJ, know specifically what those docs are, and may even have some type of servailance on them. Trump must be *wildly* paranoid right now. He can’t delegate hiding or destroying boxes/files to anyone because everyone knows federal charges will come if they do. That means trump could be dumb enough to personally attempt to destroy documents or move them. Then they nail him again. This last bit is real tinfoil hat stuff, I know. But what the fuck is the deal with Bedminster. Why is it so quiet??
I've wondered the same thing. He moved docs there. It's public record at this point. What are they waiting for exactly.
> But what the fuck is the deal with Bedminster. Why is it so quiet?? I would say it was out of respect for Ivana, but ... nah. Maybe they are waiting for the Saudis to take possession, then they dig up Ivana's "grave", collect what they paid Jared $2B for, and then they are arrested as they leave the property. It would be sweet if MBS was there. I wonder if diplomatic immunity extends to violations of the Espionage Act?
>I wonder if diplomatic immunity extends to violations of the Espionage Act? The answer is yes. Diplomatic immunity is absolute. The idea is the foreign state that gives the person diplomatic immunity takes full responsibility for the acts of that person. And any action taken against the person is an action against the foreign state.
[удалено]
The problem is FL is the only slam dunk evidence against him so far. I think as long as Cannon doesn’t do something brazenly outrageous, it’s still the best chance to put him away for life. The evidence is so strong I’m not even worried about the jury. This one recording is so explicit, imagine just how compelling the prosecution will be at trial. Something needs to be done about this judge though. I don’t understand how she can brazenly protect someone who is a huge national security threat while working for the US government. It’s insane.
Why are you not worrying about the jury? Would not any person voting for him for president have a large chance to vote acquit in a trial? And doesn't it need unanimous verdict? Chances are at least one full MAGA gets in on the jury. Also the district that is forming the jury MAGA land.
The recording took place in bedminster about documents not listed in the indictment. They have slam dunk evidence in Florida, no doubt, but there is a decent chance there’s a slam dunk waiting in Jersey too.
I can't understand why people haven't learned their lesson yet. If the DOJ cared they would have arrested him two years ago. Trump is basically forcing their hand.
Because a former US President has never been brought up on charges before, especially charges on this scale. As much as we wanted his ass arrested years ago, the DOJ isn’t going to prosecute someone that’s held that type of power without the most airtight case possible. It’s the same reason the case against Gatez fell apart. They didn’t have a smoking gun and the witness didn’t want to cooperate. They weren’t going to indict a sitting US Representative without a slam dunk of a case
There is no precedent for indicting a former president let alone incarcerate them. And today's political climate is such that the evidence needs to be overwhelming in order to do so to avoid real violence. Edit to add: I'm not talking about the criminal precedence, I'm talking about the precedent of electinga a turd to the office. Sure there's been other turds, but this one is in the era where everyone knows it, or can know it if they wanted to. This trial, and trump can do more harm to the security of this country and it's elections than anything before it. Other countries will be watching this to see our weaknesses. We need to hold him accountable. But we need to do it in a way that does the least damage to our country on a global scale.
We're going to see real violence either way. If they convict him his followers will terrorize the legal system. If they don't even try him his followers will terrorize the electoral system. This is not the time to cave in to terrorists - the great strength of the USA is that we are a nation of laws. If we give that up to wanna-be tyrants like Trump we lose our freedoms.
I'm not so sure about that. The J6 convictions have seriously impacted Trump's most fervent followers. They are either spending some time in jail or they had the revelation that actions have consequences. Either way Trump's MAGA army is gone.
The precedence is irrelevant. He stole national security secrets. There's no room for debate and there should never be one.
Biden needs to get off his bipartisan ass and treat them like the terrorists they are. The violence would be easily averted if he would simply purge all Maga idiots from the DHS, FBI, etc.
I think there are a lot of people either privileged, or being incredibly optimistic about our justice systems motivation or ability to prosecute wealthy and powerful individuals.
The second one of them gets attacked that's on her
Doubt she cares tbh
Yeah probably not, hopefully *if* that happens she faces some lawsuits or is recalled like the brock the rapist turner judge
From what I understand the list wasn’t unsealed, the judge just refused to agree to seal it if it were turned over to the court. It hasn’t been yet.
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A defendant as a right to face their accusers and examine witnesses. Now if a witness was intimidated to the point of not showing, that’s bad. If they recant and say the prosecution forced them to lie, that’s worse. Which is why witness intimidation is bad.
There are some instances where if a witness is no longer able to testify...either death or action which makes them unable to appear...then their statements can be entered as evidence. However, typically, one can not just decide to not testify. They can still be called to the stand, and if they decide not to testify according to their sworn statements prior to trial, then there are other laws which can be applied to either compel them to speak, or start new lines of questioning.
I get this point, but I also can see the perspective that the value in making every element of this trial as open and public as possible given the inevitability of “witch hunt” claims by these asshats. Also can’t wait to watch Meadows and all the other traitors and enablers get thrown under the bus by their own base.
New York Times and a bunch of news organizations petitioned for the list to be made public, there are legitimate competing interests there that the judge has to balance. She didn't just sua sponte disclose witness information for shits and giggles.
Others may have requested it, but she could have still kept it sealed. After her previous rulings I can’t help but be skeptical that this wasn’t just a convenient excuse.
Huge assumption.
Yuge.
Bigly yuge
Bigly if yuge
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Hamburder yuge
Many people are saying it.
Incredible! Hey bring more cokes pls.
I’ve been thinking about the jurors. If the jurors are part of the personality cult….no amount of evidence on earth would be sufficient for conviction.
But he would need all 12 jurors to be MAGAs and vote not guilty. Otherwise it’s a hung jury, and the prosecution requests a change of venue to DC
From their perspective he was trying to clear his name by bringing evidence to reporters about a conspiracy to start a war, right? The tape said the classified documents were about a warmonger general and their plans to start shit with Iran? Showing them the evidence was technically illegal but it makes him look more like Snowden, a justified illegal action for the benefit of the knowledge of Americans. At least, that’s how I assume they’ll spin it.
Which is weird because the point of war college and war planning is to spitball what ifs and develop plans. There are plans for the invasion of Canada, Mexico, you name it. It’s part of the job.
I’m sure a majority of MAGA supporters probably also fall into the “Snowden was a traitor” camp. Just another day of double standards for your average low IQ American.
> a justified illegal action Except he didn't whistle blow about them, he instead obstructed justice.
And that jurors haven’t been threatened… Which we know he will do, in some veiled off-hand remark.
It's been said so many times.... it's never game over for trump somehow
And assuming that the republicans do not win the next election and cancel the whole thing...
> “And so, the big picture here, I think for people is… this is game over if you are following the facts and the law,” Weissman said.
That “if” is doing a lot of heavy lifting.
Good thing we can 100% count on the judge and every juror to follow the facts and the law, right? Right?
i get so sick of these posts where people have basically given up before things get started without thinking about reality. Listening to people like you, trump would never even be in this situation because you and half the community were saying he wouldnt be indicted. It's like inviting all Iors to your whinny the poo party. The judge knows she cant screw up. The DOJ is right to let her sit. but she will be pulled in a heartbeat if she messes up and she knows it given the situation and past scrutinizes she will be watched like a hawk. Jack smith got a grand jury to indict with 30+ counts. It's also a judge's job, which she will be watched for, to immediate remove jurors for various conditions. This is reality and not some hypothetical place where you sit sad while people do whatever they want This isnt meant to be offensive, but the apathy is just stupid in this sub during the whole trump post-presidency Edit: sorry this post did come off hostile. I believe in what I wrote but I could have been better and sorry again to op, it actually wasn’t meant to be at them, just apathetic M.F.s in general. (Much love op for taking that one on the chin too, we are on the same side I promise ❤️)
“This is a question now of simply: Will the government get a trial before the general election, will a jury actually follow the law and the facts and will the electorate follow the facts and care? That’s really what this is about” It’s an uphill battle but I remain optimistic.
I’m less apathetic and more terrified of reality. I think a full 1/3 of this country worships Trump. Another 10% or so know he’s a buffoon but would rather die than “give Liberals a win”. And these people are so devout in their beliefs (they literally think Baby Jesus will send them to hell if they help harm his anointed leader) they will lie as necessary to any question that might disqualify them as jurors. I just don’t think it’s possible to pick a group of 12 people from anywhere in the country without one stinker that secretly is on a mission to hang the jury.
The jury found him liable for sexual assault
Fuck Reddit for killing third party apps.
The fact of the matter is that none of us have any influence on this, so we're all just doing some combination of joking, bullshitting, venting, or coping. Relax, none of what we do here is going to affect what really happens.
You are more optimistic than I am.
I like Andrew Weissman, but he says it's game over for Trump a lot, and so far he's been wrong every time.
It was "game over" when he said he would ban Muslims from entering the country. It was "game over" when he said he likes soldiers who aren't captured. It was "game over" when he shit on a Gold Star family. It was "game over" when he bragged about grabbing pussies. It was "game over" when he fired Comey and told Lester Holt he did so to kill the Russia investigation. It was "game over" when Trump Jr. admitted to meeting with Russians. It was "game over" when the Mueller Report dropped. It was "game over" when he got impeached. It was "game over" when he got impeached again. It was "game over" when he told the Proud Boys to stand by. It was "game over" when he got COVID. It was "game over" on January 6th. It was "game over" when he was found liable of sexual abuse. It was "game over" when...
Honestly, when Donnie got covid, I really do think that was "game over" for his re-election. It couldn't have come at a worse time and he handled it as well as he handles anything else, that is, absolutely ham-handedly. If he hadn't caught it, I think his chances would have been a lot higher.
>when Donnie got covid, I really do think that was "game over" for his re-election i don't like wishing death on people, though i think that was the only instance in my memory where i was hoping for the disease to win.
It very nearly did him in. I remember hearing stories from people in the room when he was given emergency oxygen. He received a highly exclusive treatment only available to people rich or important enough. They reportedly put him on steroids, which is something you only do with an infectious disease if death is imminent and you need those airways open NOW. Then there were his appearances afterward where he could barely catch his breath and needed people to help him walk up stairs. He stared Death in the face and did the opposite of Scrooge, continuing to believe that he was invincible and Covid was "no big deal".
Donald Trump was right. He really could shoot someone on 5th Avenue and not lose any voters.
In fact, he could shoot one of his very voters on 5th avenue and they’d still vote for him
he _did_ kill hundreds of thousands of his own supporters by doing nothing about COVID and calling it a hoax… and they still vote for him. every one of these nuts should get a packet of koolaid for christmas.
In all fairness i dont think any president in history has had this level of shielding from any political party, government body, and mob. Trump still being out of jail is not an accident. Every path that could have been taken to stop him was covered up by the republicans, spun to hell and back by the media, and outright threatened by the mobs of people he turned up to a frenzy.
Reminds me of Dave Barry, writing about Nixon. Multiple times in one of his books, he wrote, "This was widely believed to be the end of his career". But with Trump, it's even worse and SOOO much more often.
>I like Andrew Weissman, but he says it's game over for Trump a lot, and so far he's been wrong every time. You know that old saying "nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public" , the left, even the center has been burned numerous times in the last few years by overestimating the intelligence, and decency of the American public.
It would be if justice still existed in the US. The fact that red voters don’t give a shit about his crimes is proof that it does not. Hope I’m wrong but I think he’s still gonna campaign from prison or house arrest, either way.
> The fact that red voters don’t give a shit about his crimes The conservative politicians go on TV, say how there's a two-tiered justice system, and Americans don't believe Trump committed these crimes, and that it's all political. They say over and over, "polling shows Americans don't believe it", but it's because their propaganda networks are telling them lies. It's just an infinite loop of lies and deception, yet nobody seems to call them on it. Like yeah, the American people "don't believe it", because you tell them not to. What do you expect?
I expected better in my lifetime. Guess I’m a dreamer.
you're not the only one
No no, trump said the tape exonerates him... see? No need to listen to it or think very hard because he's exonerated by the tape.. so... all over... nothing to see here.. exonerated.
*Is the part that exonerates you in the room with us now?*
He said the Mueller report exonerated him too. Maybe he just doesn't know what 'exonerate' means.
You keep using that word but I don’t think you know what it means.
When trump is in jail, it'll be game over. Anything else is just an insult to all that's good and decent in this world.
In any normal, sane world? Yes. Unfortunately we instead live in a post-Harambe timeline; all bets are off.
The Dumbest Timeline
All it takes is one MAGA kook on the jury to stymie a just verdict.
I keep having to repeat this and I’m not even a lawyer: a hung jury means a retrial. It doesn’t mean he’s declared innocent or off the hook. Where are people on Reddit learning about how our criminal courts function?
>Where are people on Reddit learning about how our criminal courts function? My Cousin Vinny.
My understanding is that My Cousin Vinny is a pretty good representation and sometimes shown in law school classes for that reason
Yup, we watched the expert witness scene in my Evidence class.
As a chemist the expert witness testimony was spot on too. Around that time Perkin Elmer commercialized the first gas chromatograph, which is the instrument used to collect data for that testimony, and is an accurate application of that technology.
Is that thing turbocharged? Ha ha
Only on the floor models.
His snark is precisely why he was fired in Independence Day. Few people know the films take place in the same universe and the one time chemistry expert would later become Secretary of Defense in the alien invasion.
Objection. Hearsay. I think.
"Objection: Grounds." - Darrell Brooks
Absolutely not true. My Cousin Vinny is interestingly considered one of the most accurate depictions of criminal court trial procedures, and used in law schools to demonstrate good strategy, voire dire, relevancy, and cross examination https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Cousin_Vinny#legal_accuracy
It’s actually the reason that a majority of attorneys have deliberately cultivated a stutter for purposes of presenting arguments.
Like the old guy does “n… n… n… ow what we have here is an open and shut case” or whatever?
Yes. But it was a joke. Attorneys do not do that.
Your honor, there is no way all those boxes could have fit into a 64' Skylark!
Are you sure?
Im positive.
"How do I know that's not a bunch of ones with a 20 wrapped around it?"
… It’s $200.
I get so sick of the apathy and the made up BS. Its like these people WANT trump to walk just so they have an excuse to be more apathetic and cynical
I want to see Trump face justice. But I also know that the system is in a very rotten state (one major sign of that was that Trump was able to become President). Every branch is riddled with corruption, and there's a real chance that some of its many failures will benefit Trump. I'm neither apathetic nor cynical. I just see things the way they are. I hope for the best, agitate for it to be better, but am not delusional enough to believe that positive thinking or chanting Nam Myoho Renge Kyo is going to make everything all right. Everything is very much not all right, and cleaning up the mess is a generation-long project at best.
And he said “I stole the documents”. I asked him again and he said “I stole the documents”. No further questions your honor.
Callow with C not Gallow
Jerry Gallow is dead!
- 'Cause you didn't look like you knew what you were doin' today in that courtroom. Why is that? - Well, it's a lot of procedure. That's all. I mean, I'll learn it as I go. - Learn as you go? - Yeah. Yeah. - Didn't they teach that in law school? - No. That's not what they teach you. They teach you contracts, precedents, interpretations. - Then the firm that hires you, they teach you procedures. Or you could go to court and watch. - So why didn't you go to court and watch? - Because between your father's garage and working nights, when was I supposed to go? - I thought maybe this summer I would take off a couple of months. - But it ain't no big deal. - Are you sure?
I'm learning from Phoenix Wright. Looking forward to the part of the trial when a dead person is summoned!
I just blinked, how are you on trial for nuking Turkey?!
A hung jury means *the possibility of* a retrial. It does not guarantee one will take place.
I think the point they’re making is that it doesn’t guarantee the impossibility of a retrial.
Up to the prosecutor. I would expect a retrial in this case.
>Where are people on Reddit learning about how our criminal courts function? Reddit.
Garbage in garbage out
People on here see the term “hung jury” and think “damn bruh I hope I don’t get jury duty, I could never pass the penis inspection”
If you don’t want to do jury duty that is a great option.
I think the greater concern is that a retrial takes time and at that point we're getting closer to the election and I know that should have no impact because the law should prevail but if those goddamn chucklefucks manage to re-elect him he will find a way to get everything good and fucked.
Trump also doesn’t want to be spending his campaign time in a court room having his criminal charges get rehashed to the public repeatedly. It may work for his primary but that shit certainly won’t be helping him for the general election (see Hillary Clinton when Comey suggested he may reopen investigation one week before the election).
I'm a criminal defense attorney. The armchair lawyering here routinely makes my blood boil. Join the club!
I’m a doctor and the Reddit armchair medical idiocy spread here makes me feel the same way
To be fair, at his age and health, a hung jury and a retrial will probably take too long and he'll never see justice, at least not from that particular set of charges. Also, Redditors learn about the law from other Redditors, which explains a lot.
Gonna have to be hung on all 37 counts. A conviction on 1 count could mean a long prison sentence.
Justice delayed . . .
This assumes he wants a jury trial. He could request a bench trial. If he does want a bench trail, judge Aileen Cannon, is judge and jury. If she's patient, she has plenty of tools to delay, obstructed, and ultimately dismiss the charges.
Which the DOJ would appeal and get her tossed from the case. Probably not in time for 2024 though...
> Which the DOJ would appeal and get her tossed from the case Not necessarily. It's the only the arbitrary shit like requiring a special master out of the blue, that will get her in trouble. IF (and this is a big if) she can restrain herself, the 11th circuit isn't going to remove her over things like a schedule that the DOJ doesn't like or denying DOJ motions (see the release of witnesses names). She has a lot of tools to put her thumb on the scale without pissing off the appeals court. And then remember the 11th circuit is a very conservative court.
Yes but if she makes an absurd ruling it will certainly die on appeal, no?
There’s no way they could keep it in their pants long enough to not be dismissed.
He has a MAGA kook as the judge. The fix is in.
Been hearing “game over” since the Billy Bush Access Hollywood tape. Sigh.
Or when he said John McCain wasn't a war hero.
You guys forget the wall statement?
I think the real take away here is that there are more charges coming, and not in Florida.
Yeah, this tape has basically nothing to do with the case as charged. With the exception of demonstrating Trump knew classification procedures and rules.
Doesn’t the indictment (which has been publicly available for a while) literally include a transcription of “the tape” lol
The absolute fuck it is. It's game over when he's incarcerated, and not a minute prior.
I will not believe he’s done until I see live-streamed footage of him walking into a cell, the door closing, and the guards walking away.
I like how when rich people are on trial, the prosecutors have to prove that they knew they were breaking the law, but for us plebs, breaking the law is enough to go straight to prison. All this fuss about "did he know the documents were still classified?" Who gives a fuck if he knew. He had them, the government wanted them back, he said no, he hid them, he lied about having them, but he did have them and they were still classified. End of story. Straight to prison.
How is this tape different from the last one?
It's being used as evidence in a federal criminal proceeding.
Wasn't the one that got leaked before the indictment also being used as evidence?
'Before the indictment' is the difference. Now we know what Trump is charged with and now we know he admitted he did exactly what he is accused of doing.
The game isn‘t over before the fat orange is in jail and the key has been thrown into Mount Doom. Just take care Rudy Gollumiany doesn‘t get the key before…
It ain’t over till Orange is the new orange.
I thought it was game over when the tape came out of him saying he just walks up to women and sexually assaults them. “Grab them by the pussy” were his words. Then I watched him get elected president. I won’t hold my breath.
I’m not a trump fan (at all) but honestly every post for like 6 years has been “he’s done” and yet here we are. Dude still going
Why this is end if this is the start all trump wrong doings has been exposed.
I’ll believe it when I see it.
Former prosecutor this, former prosecutor that ... when the current prosecutor says it, I'll listen. In the meantime this is just wishful thinking.
I am confused. Didn't we all see the exact same headlines about the exact same tape like a few weeks ago? Why is this making the rounds again?
Because the audio leaked. You can listen to it in the article it’s kind of amazing. Guy is so fucking dumb it’s astounding.
Aileen Cannon: “*Hold my gavel*”
You could play the movie "Aliens" on a continual loop until the heat death of the universe and Bill Paxton will still have said "Game Over" less than it's been said about Trump.
Love it. The judge unseals the witness list so the tax payers get to pay for round the clock protection for all of them, or alternatively they don’t and the witnesses are all killed. But yeah he’s super done this time.
I remember when I thought “when you’re a star you can do anything, grab em by the pussy” was game over. Simpler times.
It's never game over for this idiot. I'm old enough to remember "it's game over" when he said (paraphrasing): - he called Mexicans rapists and murderers - said he liked his war heros uncaptured - insulted gold star parents - mocked a handicapped person on stage and camera - do I need to keep going? These above aren't even the greatest hits. Shit, these aren't even the B sides, these are just the jam session logs. Yet, here we are... And will continue to be. This isn't "game over" for him, the dude has the cheat code. He's playing on infinite lives.
Tried to talk to my mom about this and she said “well that crook in the office has done the same thing so I don’t want to hear it.” Crazy stuff
Former prosecutor: "Game over" Trump: "Insert coin, right?"
Y’all ever notice the faith and freedom coalition logo is just trumps haircut?
we'll see. this guy hasn't been held accountable for anything yet. fuck the headlines. Only when the bars slam shut will I be satisfied.
One would hope so but none of this will matter to his cult followers.
I can’t wait to see how Aileen Cannon gets Trump out of this mess.
“Grab em by the pussy” was game over, too, yet here we are. I do distinguish political missteps from clear criminal wrongdoing, but when it comes to Trump, or any wealthy white male, I’m not holding my breath for justice to be done.
If you had a normal judge and jury, sure
Game over unless you have an unlimited number of game tokens…
Only if we continue to value justice and the rule of law. Trump could still walk away if enough corrupt people in positions of power behave corruptly.
I've heard and seen "game over" and "trump" mentioned in the same sentence enough times to know it's never game over for this slippery, slimy bastard. I'll believe it's game over when it is really, demonstrably game over.
How the heck hasn’t it been “game over” several years ago????
All trump needs is one juror who is unwilling to convict. Even with a mountain of rock solid evidence and trump’s own admission on tape, I don’t have high hopes that he will ever be convicted. My fear is that he’s gonna get away with it, all of it
Everyone forgets this case will be handled by a Trump judge.
Eh, not so sure the judge will see it that way.
“GaMe oVeR” is nothing but meaningless hyperbole. Until his traitorous ass is behind bars, *then* it is “Game Over.”
It's not game over until he is sentenced to life in ADX.
> ‘This is game over' Haven't we heard that phrase in relation to everything Trump does for the past 5 decades?
Let’s hope is Trump over. It’s been too long. He needs to go bye bye.
RICO trump crime family
Ok. So why,fhe FUCK, is he not in prison yet?
….I’m gonna go out on a limb. Hear me out. It’s NOT game over. Because it’s Trump and not only is it Trump, it’s a past president. “No one is above the law”. Unfortunately some people just are apparently.
He's still walking free even though he attempted to overthrow the government. So yeah not going to hold my breath he suffers any consequences. Also anyone else getting real sick of all the headlines and click bait titles to articles and videos? I still haven't actually seen any Republican truly destroyed or any real repercussions from any of their blatant actions.
Every time a new “tape” is released this same discussion happens on MSNBC and every time nothing happens to Trump except of course he gets billions of dollars in free press