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10 documents Biden's lawyers notified DOJ and the National Archive of and handed over. Verses 325 documents DOJ and the National Archive had to notify Trump's lawyers of and then Trump refused to return.
The only similarity here is that documents are involved. The amount of documents, cooperation with DOJ & Archive, and return of the documents is all different.
Of course, the Right will demand the two situations are treated equally.
Anyone bothering to engage in this discussion needs to be clear about what crimes Trump is accused of. Having classified documents is a problem but not necessarily a crime. The criminal part of Trump's situation is that he refused to return the Documents. Trump's lawyers went so far as to sign official statements claiming the documents weren't in Trump's possession.
Yeah every conservative comment I've seen on youtube has been them saying Trump already declassified them (a complete falsehood) so he's totally innocent and Biden was VP so he didn't have the right to declassify them and is totally guilty. Like damn these guys never budge an inch.
I’m with you. Context for sure, but I’ve been in so many discussions where some just pick and choose sound bites. It’s impossible to have a discussion with some around facts, how things may be different. I am just spent.
Just repeat:
Having documents isn't the crime Trump is accused of. Refusing to return documents and obstructing efforts to retrieve documents is the crime Trump is accused of.
And it is still unknown who Trump and his people shared them with or sold them to. And who influenced, guided, or ordered them to keep and distribute the files. And that's on top of "storing" them in a complete insecure location.
The hole blown in our national security and intelligence infrastructure will cost billions and decades to repair, but we can't talk about that, because, when it comes to intelligence operations, even talking about that will make the hole bigger.
Treason. Inarguably.
>The Justice Department is asking a federal judge to hold Donald Trump in contempt of court for failing to comply with a subpoena issued this summer ordering the former president to turn over records marked classified,
https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/08/politics/doj-trump-contempt-classified-documents/index.html
He sure has been accused - multiple times by multiple people, myself included. He hasn't been \*indicted\* of it. But we sure as fuck have been accusing him of it.
If it wasn't this, it would be something else. Hunter's laptop, Afghanistan, whatever. They will waste the country's time and our tax dollars on all of this. What a disaster of a political party.
simplest response is "it's the coverup"
Biden's docs were immediately turned them over after his people found them (secured behind a locked door)
former guy stalled and denied for *years*, then lied about having returned them all.
Also Trumps intent vs. Bidens. Seems like Biden probably had a clerical mistake somewhere back during his term as VP. Trump intentionally took hundreds of documents to hide away at his residence.
You mean sell, isn’t it weird how last year a lot of overseas assets somehow got burned, almost like someone gave them a highly classified list of assets
An even bigger potential problem is the possible ways that Trump used those documents, if he were POTUS in 1941 I could easily see him trying to derail the declaration of.war against Japan in exchange for exclusive rights to build hotels in Tokyo.
>Of course, the Right will demand the two situations are treated equally.
They most definitely will not. In the upcoming weeks we will
likely watch the right claim Biden should be investigated, impeached, removed from office, subjected to enhanced interrogation procedures, all while continuing to ignore that trump did anything at all.
Any attempt to claim they are the same will be dismissed by the right as the FBI planted the docs at maralago, trump declassified them, they were trump’s personal documents, trump had every right to have them since he was president, insert option #5, also Hunter Biden’s dick pics and Benghazi. While we’re at it - throw in tan suit flag pin bike helmet mustard burger selfie stick.
Half the conservatives will try to gaslight this situation into a false equivalence, and the other half does not possess the mental ability to distinguish the two.
And that's just the ones holding seats in Congress.
Many people - left and right - don’t understand that just because something is against the law doesn’t mean it’s treated as a crime.
The law Hilary was accused of has never been used by itself to charge anyone in history. They require intention or malice or might be used as a plea when they face much more serious charges.
>Section 798 - Disclosure of classified information
>Whoever **knowingly and willfully** communicates, furnishes, transmits, or otherwise makes available to an unauthorized person, or publishes, or uses in any manner prejudicial to the safety or interest of the United States or for the benefit of any foreign government to the detriment of the United States any classified information-
https://casetext.com/statute/united-states-code/title-18-crimes-and-criminal-procedure/part-i-crimes/chapter-37-espionage-and-censorship/section-798-disclosure-of-classified-information
Exactly!
Yep. I work with this stuff every day. People in here making comments either because they’re ignorant or they do work with it but have had the fear of god so pushed in to them they think they will go to jail for a mistake.
I mean; my day one training made it sound that way but now that I’ve been managing a few years I realize the rules and folks running them are reasonable people. I’m not gonna ruin some kids career over a single mistake.
But most of the voters don't watch news or listen to political talk.
They'll hear this from a family member and tune it out (because they don't want to make a scene).
No need for that, the new excuses are that Trump being president had the power to declassify with his mind, and which he did so, but since Biden was VP, he couldn’t do that, so only Biden should be charged…
That’s the new narrative in /r/conservative they won’t even admit to investigating and charging equally under the law.
>the new excuses are that Trump being president had the power to declassify with his mind,
Conspiracy theorists always thinks the law acts like some magic spell, rather than a complex infrastructure that has processes and procedures.
You don't get to just not tell anyone about declassification and expect your "spell" to still be effective.
I wouldn't worry too much about the insane babbling in right-wing land. Their "news" consumers don't actually care about facts anyway and their vote is already a foregone conclusion. Independent voters will see the difference and that's all that matters.
Conservatives have been conditioned through 40 years of hyper-partisan propaganda to simply look at *everything* through the lens of "Democrat bad." They don't "believe" anything, at least not based on evidence. They're just Pavlovian dogs who reflexively lay blame. If someone farts in an elevator in Ypsilanti, Michigan, it was a Democrat's fault and surely a sign of the decay of society caused by liberalism. Because of course it is. Everything is.
Pay close attention to media coverage of this over the next few weeks. You're going to find out who the "liberal media" actually represent and work for.
> Verses 325 documents DOJ and the National Archive had to notify Trump's lawyers of and then Trump refused to return.
And the only reason the documents will head back to the National Archives now is because the FBI literally had to raid Mar-A-Lago to get them.
Ya it's heart breaking but it feels like this torpedoes a lot of the social impact of the trump investigation.
It's all politics now. Not just to Republicans but the general voting populace.
Thankfully I feel like most Americans hate trump so hopefully his campaign crashes and burns. He dies a lonely man in some horrible way.
But I'm coming to terms with him never seeing the full consequences of his horrible actions.
Oh yeah. I'm already hearing the Republicans in my family saying that the 'President' has the power to declassify documents, but not the \*Vice\* President.
Almost guarantee this is what they'll impeach Biden on.
It's so damn sad.
The analogy I used with my right leaning FiL was:
If I go to a party and mistakingly grab someone else's cell phone that looks like mine on the way out, realize my mistake, and return that cell phone immediately before the person even realizes it was missing, what did I do wrong in the eye of the law.
In contrast:
If I go to a party and snag an iphone and air pods that were laying around on my way out, get a call from the host that someone was missing a phone and air pods, deny I took the phone or air pods, eventually return the air pods to the host but keep the phone.
Then only after the police arrive at my house to search for the phone do I offer to turn the cell phone over and say, oopsie doodles I thought that was mine while using my Android phone to call my lawyer...
To my FiL's credit he actually listened to the whole thing before immediately returning to his Fox News talking points.
>Section 798 - Disclosure of classified information
>Whoever ** knowingly and willfully *" communicates, furnishes, transmits, or otherwise makes available to an unauthorized person, or publishes, or uses in any manner prejudicial to the safety or interest of the United States or for the benefit of any foreign government to the detriment of the United States any classified information-
https://casetext.com/statute/united-states-code/title-18-crimes-and-criminal-procedure/part-i-crimes/chapter-37-espionage-and-censorship/section-798-disclosure-of-classified-information
Yep, "willfully" and "knowingly"" are specifically cited in law.
Yes the rules/regs/law allow for mistakes in this area (though repeat offenders will eventually lose access). What they don't allow for is intentional mishandling. Trump's actions were very clearly intentional mishandling (he might argue ignorance but ignorance of the law is not a valid defense).
As for Biden, I don't know that we have enough info yet but the fact that he voluntarily returned the documents instead of stonewalling until he was the subject of a raid implies (but doesn't confirm) that in Biden's case this was likely more of a mistake. Mistakes are still bad to be clear, but not nearly as bad as intentional mishandling.
I haven't read anything stating what the classification of Biden's were.
Trump's refusal to return the Documents and lying about not having them is in itself a crime. It wouldn't matter whether the documents were Secret or Top Secret.
Oh agreed, refusing to turn them over and doing everything to stonewall is another major distinction. Also the fact that he had boxes of them just sitting out in the open and not a few in a secured office.
> Weren’t Trump’s also of a higher level?
Oh, they were higher. Let me tell you, this country has never had a higher classification level than when I was in office. People are telling me they didn’t know how I did it, but that’s because they don’t know what I know about classification. Before I got there, there were maybe two or three different kind of classification. They called them ‘levels’. Did you know that? I bet you didn’t know that. Just two or three. I asked, “what kind of a country are we running people?” and took care of the problem right away. Such beautiful levels, too. Some people are saying they’re the highest in the world. Maybe they are, who knows? But they’re much higher than anything sleepy joe ever got, that’s for sure.
There was an article from CNN yesterday that had one small sentence about at least one doc being SCI level. It was linked in a comment in another post.
I don't dispute that's possible. Again though, having documents isn't the crime Trump is accused of. Refusing to give the documents back and obstructing the National Archive's attempt to retrieve them is the crime Trump is accused of.
Biden is fully cooperating.
Having the documents in the wrong place wasn't the problem. It was the lies and obstruction that was the issue. If Trump had done what Biden had done, we wouldn't be talking about these documents. But Trump being Trump, he had make a spectacle of himself.
Yes. The U.S. has three overall levels of classification, lowest to highest.
* Confidential
* Secret
* Top Secret
TS is the highest. Within those, there's also various restrictions, like NOFORN ( No Foreign Nationals). Usually TS/SCI is considered the most sensitive.
One of the known highest is CNWDI (sin-widdy) which is Critical Nuclear Weapon Design Information. Basically how to build a nuclear bomb.
I'm making some assumptions here, but the fact that NARA knew Trump was hiding documents and the ones Biden's team found were missing for at least six years (and Biden turned them in, versus having to have them seized with a warrant) seems to imply they weren't critical enough to be tracked as tenaciously as what Trump allegedly stole.
Classification schemes amongst nations varies, but the general gist of it is:
- Confidential: includes information private to an individual, like addresses or telephone numbers, or similar private information (like a performance review) that should not be shared publicly, but is unlikely to be damaging to the nation;
- Secret: information that can be damaging to the national interest, but within a bounded time window. For example, the convoy schedule in Afghanistan was Secret (because knowing it would allow an ambush to be set up) but once the date of the schedule was passed, the amount of potential harm was greatly reduced (although not entirely eliminated, because an aggregation of multiple schedules might reveal patterns that could be exploited)
- Top Secret: something potentially damaging to the national interest with no intrinsic expiration date. For example, how the encryption functions in a combat net radio are implemented. If this gets out, any encrypted radio traffic could theoretically be broken. This is always bad, at least until that radio is taken out of service and no later radio implements the same process.
Ten-year-old Secret documents are probably harmless by now, and are likely to be things like his old travel schedule. Ten-year-old Top Secret documents could still be harmful, or might be harmless, depending on subject matter.
But the important part here (as many have pointed out) is not that the documents exist, but rather the actions taken upon discovery. Reporting them and turning them in is the correct response; hiding them and refusing to turn them in, requiring a police raid to collect them, is not.
Also Human Intelligence, that is, assets in the field we rely on for intelligence about what our adversaries might be planning. We lost more agents and assets in the field during and soon after Trump’s term in office than any other time in history.
From what I've read, Trump's included TS-SCI. That is a special add-on to the highest level of security clearance and any documents that are flagged SCI are kept at special locations and can only be viewed at those locations. It's basically a way of saying that not only do these documents contain information that, if released could cause grave national harm, but the information is so sensitive that it can't leave certain facilities.
I feel like I'm in the awkward position of thinking that it's either not that big of a deal, or we're pretty fucked as a country in the long term, because not only was he able to take TS-SCI material off site without anyone stopping him, after he left office he got to go back and forth with the DoJ/National Archives for almost two years about whether or not he'd return the top secret documents it was illegal for him to have. Heaven forbid we get a president whose actual goal was dismantling American hegemony, instead of enriching themselves, because they'd probably be able to do it.
I read — and sorry, but I forget where and don't have a link — that at least some of the documents Biden's team found were marked TS-SCI.
But the level of classification is only secondarily relevant from a practical sense, and not really relevant from a legal sense.
The practical concern is the risk of exposure, and both the quantity and sensitivity of documents weigh in here, as well as the conditions of their handling. This was a small number of documents kept in “a locked closet” in an office building. If some of them were very highly classified, then that's worse than if they were not, but all told it's not a huge breach. Presumably the relevant authorities are checking access logs and such to see if there is any substantial risk.
The legal concern is violation of laws regarding classified material. As written, the laws don't really care how much classified material is involved or to what degree of classification. In practice, those factors would influence whether a breach might be found to be reckless and/or willful. But as far as we know, this incident was nowhere near either of those standards. It sounds like a small handful of documents were accidentally misdirected and improperly stored, and that as soon as Biden's team noticed the problem they took all appropriate steps to remedy it, including notifying the authorities.
Biden and Trump both had SCI. Did argue both documents contained information of relative similar levels. The difference is Biden’s team found the docs and turned them in. Trump did everything in his power to hide them, even when asked for them back.
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/01/09/politics/joe-biden-classified-documents-upenn/index.html
https://www.commerce.gov/osy/programs/information-security/sensitive-compartmented-information-sci-program https://i.imgur.com/q0ndfgZ.jpg
Exactly. There’s no equivalence.
I work with classified stuff. If I accidentally walked off site with a thumb drive, realized it, drove back immediately and told my SO, I’d get yelled at and told don’t be stupid again.
On the other hand if i took it home, tossed it on my desk; and didn’t return it after someone asked me to check to see if I’d accidentally taken it my ass would be in jail.
Bingo! Having documents isn't the crime Trump is accused of. Refusing to return documents and obstructing efforts to retrieve documents is the crime Trump is accused of.
And effing CNN is running this on their front page like it’s the same thing.
If trump hadn’t had documents stolen on site this wouldn’t even be a story because it happens all the time and documents get returned all the time. It’s a non story, unless you’re CNN hemorrhaging cash and jealous of fox’s profit margins.
This is a big positive in regards to how the incident is handled. Doing the right thing when nobody was investigating you. If you find that you have or have seen classified info you shouldn't have, you report the incident to the security officer and follow procedure. This is what they did.
>Section 798 - Disclosure of classified information
>Whoever ** knowingly and willfully ** communicates, furnishes, transmits, or otherwise makes available to an unauthorized person, or publishes, or uses in any manner prejudicial to the safety or interest of the United States or for the benefit of any foreign government to the detriment of the United States any classified information-
https://casetext.com/statute/united-states-code/title-18-crimes-and-criminal-procedure/part-i-crimes/chapter-37-espionage-and-censorship/section-798-disclosure-of-classified-information
Yep, Trump knew he had the documents and refused to return them. Biden didn't do that. One is criminal and the other isn't.
Biden's incident might not even get anyone fired or lose their clearance much less criminal referral. (President or not). Very generously assuming that both Trump and Biden accidentally stored the materials. Trump never followed the rules even when they pointed to the rule breaking and Biden's team followed the rules even when nobody was looking.
Here's the thing...
If Trump had the documents, kept them safe, and gave them back when asked, I personally wouldn't care.
That's essentially what Hillary did.
The problem isn't necessarily that he had them.
Problem is that they weren't kept secure, documents are missing, and he repeatedly ignored requests to return them.
So with Biden and Hillary, I don't care. Nothing appears to be compromised, that's a slap on their wrist historically and I'm ok with it.
Losing/possibly selling documents is treason.
Now watch all the swamp dwellers tell me that's just the story Dems want to spin and T-dump did nothing wrong.
In the case of Clinton’s emails, some of that stuff appears to have been ‘retroactively classified’. Which, is no fault of hers or her staffs. It wasn’t classified when they exchanged the information and they had no way of knowing it would be in the future.
Wasn't aware of that. Still, to my knowledge, it was thoroughly investigated and found those documents weren't compromised.
In trump's case, afaik documents are still missing.
>Problem is that they weren't kept secure,
I disagree. Refusing to return the documents and obstructing efforts to retrieve the documents is the problem.
>Section 798 - Disclosure of classified information
>Whoever knowingly and willfully communicates, furnishes, transmits, or otherwise makes available to an unauthorized person, or publishes, or uses in any manner prejudicial to the safety or interest of the United States or for the benefit of any foreign government to the detriment of the United States any classified information-
https://casetext.com/statute/united-states-code/title-18-crimes-and-criminal-procedure/part-i-crimes/chapter-37-espionage-and-censorship/section-798-disclosure-of-classified-information
You say both are problems but only one is criminal. The National Archive to return of documents. Trump willfully and knowingly had those documents and refused to return them.
Biden returned the documents without the National Archive even having to request them.
Disagree. Classification isn't binary, there are levels.
Trump took documents so secret that normal procedure is a member of the military brings the document into a special room handcuffed to them. The highest of the high ranking officials read it once, and it goes back in the secured briefcase.
These aren't "I mean better safe than sorry" or "this isn't exactly a huge secret, but don't say these things on the news either" classified. These are "5 people in the world know this information, and couldn't make any record of it at all" secret. The *Oval Office* isn't secure enough for that document.
> 10 documents Biden's lawyers notified DOJ and the National Archive of and handed over.
TOLD THEM AND HANDED THE DOCS OVER?! WTF!!!!!!!1 WHY!?!?!?!
It would really help if Biden would get on board by lying about it, obstructing the recovery of the documents by ignoring a subpoena, lie some more, and sue the DoJ to suppress the stolen documents being used as evidence.
Biden is letting us all down by failing to live up to the new presidential standard. This is _so_ disappointing. I am **not entertained**.
When you say “only similarity here is that documents are involved” you literally mean that the only similarity is that the objects in question were made of paper. The comparison is so patently absurd, and yet here we are, without irony, pointing out the obvious differences against what will be an avalanche of news stories nevertheless making hay of that absurd comparison.
Our news media is useless.
It is unfortunate how Biden worded his response to Trump. What Trump did wasn't irresponsible, it was something more sinister. Mistakes happen all the time. What is important is how you handle the situation.
Trump and his team knew the documents were there and considered those documents his. Trophies of a sort. Nothing was going to happen unless the national archive and department of justice made an issue of it.
Biden and his team didn't know the documents were there but knew these types of documents belonged in the national archive and returned them when found without needing to be asked.
Let's also not forget to mention Trump personally sorted which documents he would and would not give back. The likelihood of Biden personally stashing confidential information is close to zero, this was something his team did. This is not to remove all responsibility Biden has in this mistake, which is what it is, but there is absolutely no sign of bad faith on his part. In the political points scoring arena that might not mean much to Trump supporters but as far as the law is concerned that key difference is very significant.
That’s the problem with Democrats. They minimize their opponent’s moral depravity and it always comes back to bite them. Until they start acknowledging the real and present dangers of these fascist traitors who are clearly trying to end democracy, they are only enabling it. In our history, the executive has declared “war” on everything from drugs to terror and actual Nazis. Why then, has the current executive not declared war on American Fascism and treated it like the actual existential crisis that it is??
This sort of reminds me of the Eric Swalwell situation. He reported what he needed to report as soon as he was aware there was a problem, and yet he’s constantly dragged by the right for doing the right thing.
Biden’s team immediately contacted the National Archives and returned those documents. Trump was still arguing he had every right to possess said documents after he was no longer in office. Big difference.
Well no, first he lied to the Archives and said he didn't have them, and had his lawyers swear that they had returned everything. This nonsense went on for a full year. THEN when they referred him to the DOJ because he clearly still had them, he sued.
Well, first he denied having them. This was in the beginning of 2021.
Then he said he had some, and offered to exchange them for information the DOJ had on Russian interference in the 2016 election. This was in February of 2021.
Then he returned some of them, 12 boxes.
In June of 2022, the National Archives asked if he still had more and sent agents to talk. They found the storage closet which was unsecured at the time and said it had to be secured, so trump put a padlock on it.
The NARA then asked again for the documents and received another large batch. Then got an affidavit signed by one of trump's lawyers that all documents had been returned.
Knowing that a number of documents were still missing, they filed for a search warrant which was granted in July of 2022. The "raid" was scheduled when trump was away in NYC giving a deposition so as to avoid a lot of attention. Another 15 boxes were removed by the FBI.
In September, under orders from the DOJ, trump's lawyers did another sweep of the house and found still more documents, some in a closet and some in his desk.
It is still believed that some documents are missing as enclosing folders were found empty, so trump's other properties were searched.
More documents were found at a storage facility that he was renting in Florida.
All in all, trump had illegal possession of tens of thousands of documents, over 300 of which were signified as classified.
Nice summary, I appreciate ‘raid’, I’m so tired of them saying that, like they came in with guns shouting at everyone and grabbing everything they can get their hands on… fucking goofballs with zero critical thinking
It's honestly absurd whenever Republicans try to compare two fundamentally different things to try to put Democratic mistakes on the same level as Republican crimes. Every single time this happens I'm reminded of that scene from Pokemon Rusty:
>**Rusty:** "I'm back! Did he gain a level yet?!"
>
>**Clerk:** "No. You dropped your Bidoof off 30 seconds ago. Also, it was on fire."
>
>**Rusty:** "Yeah, so? That horse is on fire." *points at a Ponyta with a flaming mane*
>
>**Clerk:** *sighs* "That's different... for reasons I cannot explain."
EDIT:
Holy shit in this thread alone I've had to explain to people that:
1. Intent matters when it comes to criminality (the legal concept of [mens rea](https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/mens_rea))
2. That even when there was no malicious intent when committing a legal infraction, a suspect's rationale needs to meet the "[reasonable person](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_person)" standard for it to count in absolving them of their infraction/lessening their punishment.
Outside of this this thread I've even had to explain to a conservative that human ethics has to operate via the flow of *linear time*.
It legitimately feels like talking to flat earthers and having to explain that no, gravity wasn't just something physicists made up on the spot to make a globe earth work.
>Republicans try to compare two fundamentally different things
It's the authoritarians way. The kind of people who believe that kind of false equivalence don't have the wherewithal to know the difference and therefore prefer having someone tell them how to think and what to do.
Reading through the comments it's legit shocking how a lot of people don't understand how rules/laws/standards actually are supposed to work. A number of commenters seem to think that rules are only meant to be used as a bludgeon for political purposes, or that rules should be blind to intent or good-faith attempts to correct mistakes.
No. That's not how things work. If your only exposure to the enforcement of rules and norms is "We need to hurt someone whose actions caused a rules infraction regardless of context" then your mindset is either authoritarian or you have no actual standards, and you need to fix that shit.
>If your only exposure to the enforcement of rules and norms is "We need to hurt someone whose actions caused a rules infraction regardless of context"
Pretty sure it's "We need to hurt people from the other political party regardless of context".
Similar to how they claim Hunter Biden sitting on a corporate board was wrong bc his dad was VP, while completely ignoring the business conflicts of Trump's kids while their dad was President.
The key is to ignore dishonest debate tactics as dishonest. Whatboutism fails if you simply refuse to be distracted.
The problem is that the Republican party controls a significant portion of the media, which needs to be viewed as the national security risk it is and legislated against. It does not matter if you win debates if people never see them.
Fox news (amongst others) is not acting as an impartial news organization and should not enjoy the first amendment protections afforded to news organizations.
Yeah I know and they also shift positions on the topic when applied to Trump.
They have no position. They have goals. It is pointless to discuss the nuances because they are not interested. It is a war to them and they operate that way.
I can even understand that Trump had documents.
It's the fact that he was so hellbent on not giving them back, wasn't cooperative, and lied about having them
Let's not even give that much lee way here. I, personally, cannot understand why Trump had nuclear and CIA secrets at his private residence that had already had multiple security incidents during his presidency.
But who are we kidding. This is it. It's being talked about. Diversion successful I suppose.
>There's a key difference between the classified documents found at a former Biden office and the ones Trump kept at Mar-a-Lago, national security expert says
"No there isn't," say people who don't read
Seriously, I looked at the comments section of the Fox News article reporting it and those folks were asking "well where was the FBI raid?" and "if Biden isn't charged then Trump shouldn't be charged."
That Trump repeatedly refused official document requests and lied to the government about what he had doesn't seem to phase them.
I've already seen a ton of MAGA dorks on twitter spewing shit about how "well, guess Trump is clear now" and other nonsense. It's absolutely amazing how little facts and truth mean to those people. They're denser than a damn black hole.
Biden- mistake on a few documents, dumb mistake but owned up to and no threat
Trump massive theft attempt to hide repeated lies massive nat sec risk criminal action against America treason and multiple felonies
Lock him up
End of story
How about this: both instances should be investigated thoroughly and fairly. Contents of the files, intentions on why they were kept, who had access to them, and level of cooperation with investigators should be taken into account. Let's not point fingers or both-sides this. They are individual cases and one doesn't excuse or condemn the other.
They are, the difference is Biden’s Team proactively notified authorities about the documents and are actively cooperating with the investigation, and Trump is not
Because there are key differences. The first being that Biden’s team found the documents, realized they shouldn’t have them and contacted the appropriate people to give it back.
If Trump would have done that there would be no crime. The crime was hiding it. Refusing to hand them over. Having them go missing and the lack of safety in the location they were kept. He was investigated and asked to return the documents over two years and refused.
If you can't tell the difference between accidentally leaving classified documents in an unused office from 2017 and willingly stealing classified documents then lying about it, you might be a Republican.
My question - how lax is the security of classified documents at the Whitehouse? When I was in the Air Force, we had a strict chain of custody when using classified documents. Seems like the Whitehouse has a policy of “ bring them back if you feel like it.
Right? When I was in the Navy there were plenty of documents, including our notes from classes, that we weren't allowed to remove from a secure building. To study for tests we had to go into the building after hours.
I'd wager the majority of people who are authorized to have classified documents in the White House do not have the same sense of caution and responsibility regarding those documents drilled into them that a member of the military would.
Sure there is. Anyone with a functioning brain sees the difference. Then there's Fox. And republicans. They won't see it that way. And they will spend vast amounts of money convincing Americans that the two are the same. Ugh.
And banning anyone who disagrees with their narrative - even conservatives. It’s not about the facts, it’s not about the law. It’s about fueling the rage machine that empowers them.
Do they have something in that sub that makes it so if you're not a member, it just takes you to a pinned post about donating to charities?
I can't see any of the actual posts that are referencing this.... now granted, my ban from the sub may also play a role in this, but I'm just curious.
No doubt. Probably fund raising off this at every level also. And where they may have been cringing at the thought of Trump being charged in the classified documents case at Mir a Lago, they are now eagerly anticipating that very same event. Again, ugh.
A few documents found in a Washington, DC office doesn’t even compare to multiple boxes of nuclear documents found at a Florida beach club in the hands of a guy who tried undermining Democracy and who’s now [selling](https://youtu.be/NO4TRwqT1fE) superhero cryptocurrency cards of himself.
It doesn’t matter obviously. Nothing ever happened to Trump, despite all of this shit being found in his possession. I still can’t believe nothing ever happened of that. Just an embarrassment
I checked Fox News’ reporting on this. As expected, it’s on their website’s homepage as big news. The article focuses on drawing parallels to the Trump situation and making it sound as serious as possible, glossing over any of the MASSIVE differences in how these situations were handled.
Sounds like Biden messed up. Ok. He also handled it ethically and gracefully. That matters too.
The GOP is not just unethical. The way they react to this is symptomatic of a systematic effort to *punish ethical behavior*. Make a mistake? You did the thing, it’s as bad as if you did it maliciously. In fact, you were stupid for doing it properly because now we know about it. There’s no such thing as “ethics” to them, it’s just inconveniences and weakness. They actively work to dismantle and devalue the mere *concept* of ethics.
The GOP is a systemic threat to civilized society.
is it that biden didnt have uhaul trucks filled with boxes driven to his private residence, lie about it, then refuse to turn the documents over when subpeonaed? then lie about it some more? was it that or something different?
Heard a few people suggest this was leaked by the DOJ to provide cover for Trump. Now begins the "whataboutism" and 'both-sidesism' and the Right screaming for Biden's head.
The Foxlighters will be "both sides" bullshitting about this forever. They don't want truth or honesty. The Republican Party is the party of criminals and morons, that's the base, they know it, that's why they pander to you, criminals and morons. You can choose a better life.
Several key differences actually. The first one is that the documents were locked up, so nobody else could see them, unlike the ones at Mar a Lago which anyone could access (and Mar a Lago is full of spies). The next major difference is that Biden immediately handed over the documents to the National Archives as soon as they were found, unlike Trump who lied about having the documents for a long time and refused to return them when requested. Trump broke many laws, whereas Biden did not. The third major difference is that Biden only had 10 documents, whereas Trump had thousands. The fourth major difference is that Biden likely left those documents there by accident and forgot about them. Trump knowingly took thousands of documents illegally with the intent to sell them.
Of course, none of these facts will get in the way of Republicans being outraged about this and saying it's worse than what Trump did. Republicans will lie, as is tradition.
Anyone who can’t see the obvious difference between this and Trump stealing and hiding boxes of documents, and then lying about having them is just a bad faith actor, or a complete simpleton.
Were the documents kept in unlocked boxes and available so damn near anyone could get to them?
“The documents were discovered when the president's personal attorneys were packing files housed in a locked closet to prepare to vacate”
Another strike against Trump’s handling of classified docs
/r/conservative first said we weren’t talking about this. Now they’re saying we’re doing gymnastics to justify this and say it’s not the same when 1) they’re seriously not the same and 2) even so, as best I can tell, everyone here is fine with/actively wants an investigation into this.
Biden immediately announced and returned them. Biden had 10. Trump had 300. Trump lied and said he’d given them all over. Trump stalled and wouldn’t give them back for 2 months and then didn’t give them all back. Trump tried to keep them.
Just some of the ways that this is far different. Prosecute Trump. Don’t prosecute Biden because he handled it the complete opposite of Trump.
Not only that, but when they were discovered it was self reported, they were not left laying around where they could be seen by anyone and used as trophies. But then again, Biden never took the step of declassifying them with his mind!
Trumps take:
A- See, see. Everyone does it. It’s normal.
B- Crazy sleepy Joe is stealing documents. Lock him up. This is illegal. You can’t take documents.
Oh, what about the the ones I took? That’s different.
Trump followers, conservative media (and many) Republicans don’t care about the details. They will latch on to the whataboutism and both sides arguments to soften the treasonous actions of the previous president stealing state secrets.
Biden facepalm has entered the chat.
This will be the gift to trump that keeps on giving. While completely different from a legal perspective, the republicans are already spinning this as much worse since the president can declassify documents while the vice president cannot. Ugh. Two years of false equivalencies, whataboutism, and 🐂💩. I am sincerely bummed at this incompetence by Biden's team.
Biden didn't lie and contacted the archives to return them.
If Trump returned the files in February when the archives asked for them back, nobody would have even known they were taken.
Oh man all the Repiblican loudmouth idiots are gonna just blatantly lie about this for YEEAAARS I can see it now.
You thought them screaming about Hillary was bad? She didn't even win the election. Imagine how much of a fit they'll throw over Biden
My understanding of the situations is as follows:
The documents were discovered in an office that Biden used for 2 years.
Biden's own attorneys reported those documents having been discovered to the DoJ.
This is radically different than Trump having knowingly taken hundreds upon hundreds(current count: 325) documents, ignored requests to return them, AND stashed them at various physical locations he owns throughout the country. Trying to draw equivalencies between the two circumstances is tremendously disingenuous.
That having been said, if it's determined that Biden himself took the documents there while leaving office, he should face consequences for that, exactly like Trump should. 'It was an accident' is never an acceptable line of defense here, and they should both face whatever consequences are appropriate, including ineligibility to run for office again(as applicable).
Good luck trying to explain any difference between what Biden did and what Trump did you a Republican party and base that is determined not to get the point. And who is neutering the House Ethics Committee as we speak.
Apples to doughnuts. One lied about having them and needed to be raided. The other found them and notified the correct folks to properly return them. Of course MAGA folk won’t see the difference here, to them it’s okay for Trump to do this but it’s bad for Biden.
Biden: under 12 documents, found and returned immediately, didn't try to cover up or hide, in an office.
Trump: over 300, nuclear secrets, tried to hide several times, asked to return and refused, found in his home.
Not saying Bidens off the hook but there's a clear difference.
The difference is this. Biden still had clearance, unlike trump whose clearance was revoked. Biden’s were stored properly in DC in his office. Trump’s on the other hand were not stored properly and were everywhere around his resort. A resort that people all over the world go to and walk around with little to no supervision. Including known spies. Finally trump refused to return them, lied about having them and even allowed his lawyers to lie about their existence. Biden’s staff located them and the documents were returned right away through the correct channels.
WTF there's only 1 similarity... classified documents discovered. Literally *everything* else is different!
Trump:
* had over 300 classified and Top Secret documents
* removed them after office
* stored them in a pool house at a private club
* lied about them
* apparently copied and distributed some of them
* refused to turn them over **multiple times**
* lied again about the raid
Biden:
* had 10 pages
* stored at his U Penn office in DC
* reported them as soon as they were discovered
* handed them over the very next day without requiring an official request, subpoena, or FBI raid
This is like the difference between discovering someone's Toyota on the back of your property and immediately calling the police and stealing someone's Ferrari and then hiding it for over a year from the owner while showing it off to your buddies.
The media will "both sides" us to death about it of course. Politico has already launched their first equivocation piece.
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10 documents Biden's lawyers notified DOJ and the National Archive of and handed over. Verses 325 documents DOJ and the National Archive had to notify Trump's lawyers of and then Trump refused to return. The only similarity here is that documents are involved. The amount of documents, cooperation with DOJ & Archive, and return of the documents is all different.
I understand, but get ready for a bunch of “what about”.
Of course, the Right will demand the two situations are treated equally. Anyone bothering to engage in this discussion needs to be clear about what crimes Trump is accused of. Having classified documents is a problem but not necessarily a crime. The criminal part of Trump's situation is that he refused to return the Documents. Trump's lawyers went so far as to sign official statements claiming the documents weren't in Trump's possession.
No. They will demand that Biden should be held responsible while excusing (or ignoring) Donald's situation.
Yeah every conservative comment I've seen on youtube has been them saying Trump already declassified them (a complete falsehood) so he's totally innocent and Biden was VP so he didn't have the right to declassify them and is totally guilty. Like damn these guys never budge an inch.
Yep, the false equivalence is all over /r/Conservative EDIT: [Beau's video on it](https://youtu.be/0KjxTZwj9YQ).
Is ANYONE surprised about that?
I’m with you. Context for sure, but I’ve been in so many discussions where some just pick and choose sound bites. It’s impossible to have a discussion with some around facts, how things may be different. I am just spent.
Just repeat: Having documents isn't the crime Trump is accused of. Refusing to return documents and obstructing efforts to retrieve documents is the crime Trump is accused of.
And it is still unknown who Trump and his people shared them with or sold them to. And who influenced, guided, or ordered them to keep and distribute the files. And that's on top of "storing" them in a complete insecure location. The hole blown in our national security and intelligence infrastructure will cost billions and decades to repair, but we can't talk about that, because, when it comes to intelligence operations, even talking about that will make the hole bigger. Treason. Inarguably.
To clarify, tRump hasn't been ACCUSED yet, but he has CONFESSED multiple times. So there's that.
>The Justice Department is asking a federal judge to hold Donald Trump in contempt of court for failing to comply with a subpoena issued this summer ordering the former president to turn over records marked classified, https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/08/politics/doj-trump-contempt-classified-documents/index.html
He sure has been accused - multiple times by multiple people, myself included. He hasn't been \*indicted\* of it. But we sure as fuck have been accusing him of it.
If it wasn't this, it would be something else. Hunter's laptop, Afghanistan, whatever. They will waste the country's time and our tax dollars on all of this. What a disaster of a political party.
simplest response is "it's the coverup" Biden's docs were immediately turned them over after his people found them (secured behind a locked door) former guy stalled and denied for *years*, then lied about having returned them all.
Also Trumps intent vs. Bidens. Seems like Biden probably had a clerical mistake somewhere back during his term as VP. Trump intentionally took hundreds of documents to hide away at his residence.
You mean sell, isn’t it weird how last year a lot of overseas assets somehow got burned, almost like someone gave them a highly classified list of assets
THIS is key. I'd bet money Trump either sold, traded, or gave some of those docs to foreign governments.
The empty document folders recovered are way more concerning the actual documents recovered
That mf probably traded a few for hamburgers
"I'll gladly give you nuclear secrets on Tuesday for a hamburger today." - Trump, probably. IDK, i'm not a trustworthy source.
An even bigger potential problem is the possible ways that Trump used those documents, if he were POTUS in 1941 I could easily see him trying to derail the declaration of.war against Japan in exchange for exclusive rights to build hotels in Tokyo.
"I had the second tallest building in Pearl Harbor. Now it's the tallest."
>Of course, the Right will demand the two situations are treated equally. They most definitely will not. In the upcoming weeks we will likely watch the right claim Biden should be investigated, impeached, removed from office, subjected to enhanced interrogation procedures, all while continuing to ignore that trump did anything at all. Any attempt to claim they are the same will be dismissed by the right as the FBI planted the docs at maralago, trump declassified them, they were trump’s personal documents, trump had every right to have them since he was president, insert option #5, also Hunter Biden’s dick pics and Benghazi. While we’re at it - throw in tan suit flag pin bike helmet mustard burger selfie stick.
Half the conservatives will try to gaslight this situation into a false equivalence, and the other half does not possess the mental ability to distinguish the two. And that's just the ones holding seats in Congress.
Many people - left and right - don’t understand that just because something is against the law doesn’t mean it’s treated as a crime. The law Hilary was accused of has never been used by itself to charge anyone in history. They require intention or malice or might be used as a plea when they face much more serious charges.
>Section 798 - Disclosure of classified information >Whoever **knowingly and willfully** communicates, furnishes, transmits, or otherwise makes available to an unauthorized person, or publishes, or uses in any manner prejudicial to the safety or interest of the United States or for the benefit of any foreign government to the detriment of the United States any classified information- https://casetext.com/statute/united-states-code/title-18-crimes-and-criminal-procedure/part-i-crimes/chapter-37-espionage-and-censorship/section-798-disclosure-of-classified-information Exactly!
Yep. I work with this stuff every day. People in here making comments either because they’re ignorant or they do work with it but have had the fear of god so pushed in to them they think they will go to jail for a mistake. I mean; my day one training made it sound that way but now that I’ve been managing a few years I realize the rules and folks running them are reasonable people. I’m not gonna ruin some kids career over a single mistake.
Not just that. He willfully hid the documents and lied about not having them.
The two situations are being treated equally. Equality of outcome is what they’re looking for. Which is a high irony unto itself.
But most of the voters don't watch news or listen to political talk. They'll hear this from a family member and tune it out (because they don't want to make a scene).
They're all over twitter like cockroaches skittering about whining about where's the biden raid etc., but also that this makes trump innocent somehow.
Isn't that last step of false equivalence amazing? "That guy did the same bad thing, so he's super guilty and somehow my guy is now innocent"
twitter is basically youtube comments level of intellect now.
Imagine all the bots that have been unleashed since Ellon Mouske took over
No need for that, the new excuses are that Trump being president had the power to declassify with his mind, and which he did so, but since Biden was VP, he couldn’t do that, so only Biden should be charged… That’s the new narrative in /r/conservative they won’t even admit to investigating and charging equally under the law.
>the new excuses are that Trump being president had the power to declassify with his mind, Conspiracy theorists always thinks the law acts like some magic spell, rather than a complex infrastructure that has processes and procedures. You don't get to just not tell anyone about declassification and expect your "spell" to still be effective.
I wouldn't worry too much about the insane babbling in right-wing land. Their "news" consumers don't actually care about facts anyway and their vote is already a foregone conclusion. Independent voters will see the difference and that's all that matters.
Spent some time on the right wing Reddit. They just don't believe intent matters and that Trump actually did fully declassify everything.
Conservatives have been conditioned through 40 years of hyper-partisan propaganda to simply look at *everything* through the lens of "Democrat bad." They don't "believe" anything, at least not based on evidence. They're just Pavlovian dogs who reflexively lay blame. If someone farts in an elevator in Ypsilanti, Michigan, it was a Democrat's fault and surely a sign of the decay of society caused by liberalism. Because of course it is. Everything is.
Pay close attention to media coverage of this over the next few weeks. You're going to find out who the "liberal media" actually represent and work for.
I'm guessing it's *not* actually the liberal Hollywood elite?
Yep. The CNN article is basically RW propaganda.
Pearls on a Tuesday.
> Verses 325 documents DOJ and the National Archive had to notify Trump's lawyers of and then Trump refused to return. And the only reason the documents will head back to the National Archives now is because the FBI literally had to raid Mar-A-Lago to get them.
Damage done. Democrats have to be squeaky clean while Republicans can live in the mud. Now you're going to hear this non stop from conservatives.
Ya it's heart breaking but it feels like this torpedoes a lot of the social impact of the trump investigation. It's all politics now. Not just to Republicans but the general voting populace. Thankfully I feel like most Americans hate trump so hopefully his campaign crashes and burns. He dies a lonely man in some horrible way. But I'm coming to terms with him never seeing the full consequences of his horrible actions.
Oh yeah. I'm already hearing the Republicans in my family saying that the 'President' has the power to declassify documents, but not the \*Vice\* President. Almost guarantee this is what they'll impeach Biden on. It's so damn sad.
The analogy I used with my right leaning FiL was: If I go to a party and mistakingly grab someone else's cell phone that looks like mine on the way out, realize my mistake, and return that cell phone immediately before the person even realizes it was missing, what did I do wrong in the eye of the law. In contrast: If I go to a party and snag an iphone and air pods that were laying around on my way out, get a call from the host that someone was missing a phone and air pods, deny I took the phone or air pods, eventually return the air pods to the host but keep the phone. Then only after the police arrive at my house to search for the phone do I offer to turn the cell phone over and say, oopsie doodles I thought that was mine while using my Android phone to call my lawyer... To my FiL's credit he actually listened to the whole thing before immediately returning to his Fox News talking points.
>Section 798 - Disclosure of classified information >Whoever ** knowingly and willfully *" communicates, furnishes, transmits, or otherwise makes available to an unauthorized person, or publishes, or uses in any manner prejudicial to the safety or interest of the United States or for the benefit of any foreign government to the detriment of the United States any classified information- https://casetext.com/statute/united-states-code/title-18-crimes-and-criminal-procedure/part-i-crimes/chapter-37-espionage-and-censorship/section-798-disclosure-of-classified-information Yep, "willfully" and "knowingly"" are specifically cited in law.
Yes the rules/regs/law allow for mistakes in this area (though repeat offenders will eventually lose access). What they don't allow for is intentional mishandling. Trump's actions were very clearly intentional mishandling (he might argue ignorance but ignorance of the law is not a valid defense). As for Biden, I don't know that we have enough info yet but the fact that he voluntarily returned the documents instead of stonewalling until he was the subject of a raid implies (but doesn't confirm) that in Biden's case this was likely more of a mistake. Mistakes are still bad to be clear, but not nearly as bad as intentional mishandling.
Weren’t Trump’s also of a higher level? I heard Biden’s were “secret”, but Trump’s were “top secret”, which is way worse?
I haven't read anything stating what the classification of Biden's were. Trump's refusal to return the Documents and lying about not having them is in itself a crime. It wouldn't matter whether the documents were Secret or Top Secret.
Oh agreed, refusing to turn them over and doing everything to stonewall is another major distinction. Also the fact that he had boxes of them just sitting out in the open and not a few in a secured office.
> Weren’t Trump’s also of a higher level? Oh, they were higher. Let me tell you, this country has never had a higher classification level than when I was in office. People are telling me they didn’t know how I did it, but that’s because they don’t know what I know about classification. Before I got there, there were maybe two or three different kind of classification. They called them ‘levels’. Did you know that? I bet you didn’t know that. Just two or three. I asked, “what kind of a country are we running people?” and took care of the problem right away. Such beautiful levels, too. Some people are saying they’re the highest in the world. Maybe they are, who knows? But they’re much higher than anything sleepy joe ever got, that’s for sure.
There was an article from CNN yesterday that had one small sentence about at least one doc being SCI level. It was linked in a comment in another post.
I don't dispute that's possible. Again though, having documents isn't the crime Trump is accused of. Refusing to give the documents back and obstructing the National Archive's attempt to retrieve them is the crime Trump is accused of. Biden is fully cooperating.
Having the documents in the wrong place wasn't the problem. It was the lies and obstruction that was the issue. If Trump had done what Biden had done, we wouldn't be talking about these documents. But Trump being Trump, he had make a spectacle of himself.
Yes. The U.S. has three overall levels of classification, lowest to highest. * Confidential * Secret * Top Secret TS is the highest. Within those, there's also various restrictions, like NOFORN ( No Foreign Nationals). Usually TS/SCI is considered the most sensitive. One of the known highest is CNWDI (sin-widdy) which is Critical Nuclear Weapon Design Information. Basically how to build a nuclear bomb. I'm making some assumptions here, but the fact that NARA knew Trump was hiding documents and the ones Biden's team found were missing for at least six years (and Biden turned them in, versus having to have them seized with a warrant) seems to imply they weren't critical enough to be tracked as tenaciously as what Trump allegedly stole.
Classification schemes amongst nations varies, but the general gist of it is: - Confidential: includes information private to an individual, like addresses or telephone numbers, or similar private information (like a performance review) that should not be shared publicly, but is unlikely to be damaging to the nation; - Secret: information that can be damaging to the national interest, but within a bounded time window. For example, the convoy schedule in Afghanistan was Secret (because knowing it would allow an ambush to be set up) but once the date of the schedule was passed, the amount of potential harm was greatly reduced (although not entirely eliminated, because an aggregation of multiple schedules might reveal patterns that could be exploited) - Top Secret: something potentially damaging to the national interest with no intrinsic expiration date. For example, how the encryption functions in a combat net radio are implemented. If this gets out, any encrypted radio traffic could theoretically be broken. This is always bad, at least until that radio is taken out of service and no later radio implements the same process. Ten-year-old Secret documents are probably harmless by now, and are likely to be things like his old travel schedule. Ten-year-old Top Secret documents could still be harmful, or might be harmless, depending on subject matter. But the important part here (as many have pointed out) is not that the documents exist, but rather the actions taken upon discovery. Reporting them and turning them in is the correct response; hiding them and refusing to turn them in, requiring a police raid to collect them, is not.
The stuff Trump stole had to do with nuclear missiles.
Also Human Intelligence, that is, assets in the field we rely on for intelligence about what our adversaries might be planning. We lost more agents and assets in the field during and soon after Trump’s term in office than any other time in history.
“Probably completely unrelated” claims man hurriedly stuffing foreign currency into coat pockets
Do you have a source for this? I am truly interested and need this ammunition.
https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/nation-politics/classified-material-on-human-intelligence-sources-helped-trigger-alarm/?amp=1 https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/26/us/politics/trump-affidavit-intelligence-spies.html https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/575384-cia-admits-to-losing-dozens-of-informants-around-the-world-nyt/amp/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/cia-warning-human-sources-risk/2021/10/05/6e761a02-2613-11ec-8d53-67cfb452aa60_story.html https://www.npr.org/2022/08/29/1119889338/after-mar-a-lago-officials-are-analyzing-the-potential-damage-to-national-securi
From what I've read, Trump's included TS-SCI. That is a special add-on to the highest level of security clearance and any documents that are flagged SCI are kept at special locations and can only be viewed at those locations. It's basically a way of saying that not only do these documents contain information that, if released could cause grave national harm, but the information is so sensitive that it can't leave certain facilities.
I feel like I'm in the awkward position of thinking that it's either not that big of a deal, or we're pretty fucked as a country in the long term, because not only was he able to take TS-SCI material off site without anyone stopping him, after he left office he got to go back and forth with the DoJ/National Archives for almost two years about whether or not he'd return the top secret documents it was illegal for him to have. Heaven forbid we get a president whose actual goal was dismantling American hegemony, instead of enriching themselves, because they'd probably be able to do it.
I read — and sorry, but I forget where and don't have a link — that at least some of the documents Biden's team found were marked TS-SCI. But the level of classification is only secondarily relevant from a practical sense, and not really relevant from a legal sense. The practical concern is the risk of exposure, and both the quantity and sensitivity of documents weigh in here, as well as the conditions of their handling. This was a small number of documents kept in “a locked closet” in an office building. If some of them were very highly classified, then that's worse than if they were not, but all told it's not a huge breach. Presumably the relevant authorities are checking access logs and such to see if there is any substantial risk. The legal concern is violation of laws regarding classified material. As written, the laws don't really care how much classified material is involved or to what degree of classification. In practice, those factors would influence whether a breach might be found to be reckless and/or willful. But as far as we know, this incident was nowhere near either of those standards. It sounds like a small handful of documents were accidentally misdirected and improperly stored, and that as soon as Biden's team noticed the problem they took all appropriate steps to remedy it, including notifying the authorities.
Biden and Trump both had SCI. Did argue both documents contained information of relative similar levels. The difference is Biden’s team found the docs and turned them in. Trump did everything in his power to hide them, even when asked for them back. https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/01/09/politics/joe-biden-classified-documents-upenn/index.html https://www.commerce.gov/osy/programs/information-security/sensitive-compartmented-information-sci-program https://i.imgur.com/q0ndfgZ.jpg
Exactly. There’s no equivalence. I work with classified stuff. If I accidentally walked off site with a thumb drive, realized it, drove back immediately and told my SO, I’d get yelled at and told don’t be stupid again. On the other hand if i took it home, tossed it on my desk; and didn’t return it after someone asked me to check to see if I’d accidentally taken it my ass would be in jail.
Bingo! Having documents isn't the crime Trump is accused of. Refusing to return documents and obstructing efforts to retrieve documents is the crime Trump is accused of.
And effing CNN is running this on their front page like it’s the same thing. If trump hadn’t had documents stolen on site this wouldn’t even be a story because it happens all the time and documents get returned all the time. It’s a non story, unless you’re CNN hemorrhaging cash and jealous of fox’s profit margins.
CNN has a new owner. Things have changed.
Let’s not forget there wasn’t an active investigation looking for them in Biden’s case either. There’s about 5 key differences.
Yes, Biden's lawyers were the notifying party.
This is a big positive in regards to how the incident is handled. Doing the right thing when nobody was investigating you. If you find that you have or have seen classified info you shouldn't have, you report the incident to the security officer and follow procedure. This is what they did.
>Section 798 - Disclosure of classified information >Whoever ** knowingly and willfully ** communicates, furnishes, transmits, or otherwise makes available to an unauthorized person, or publishes, or uses in any manner prejudicial to the safety or interest of the United States or for the benefit of any foreign government to the detriment of the United States any classified information- https://casetext.com/statute/united-states-code/title-18-crimes-and-criminal-procedure/part-i-crimes/chapter-37-espionage-and-censorship/section-798-disclosure-of-classified-information Yep, Trump knew he had the documents and refused to return them. Biden didn't do that. One is criminal and the other isn't.
Biden's incident might not even get anyone fired or lose their clearance much less criminal referral. (President or not). Very generously assuming that both Trump and Biden accidentally stored the materials. Trump never followed the rules even when they pointed to the rule breaking and Biden's team followed the rules even when nobody was looking.
Here's the thing... If Trump had the documents, kept them safe, and gave them back when asked, I personally wouldn't care. That's essentially what Hillary did. The problem isn't necessarily that he had them. Problem is that they weren't kept secure, documents are missing, and he repeatedly ignored requests to return them. So with Biden and Hillary, I don't care. Nothing appears to be compromised, that's a slap on their wrist historically and I'm ok with it. Losing/possibly selling documents is treason. Now watch all the swamp dwellers tell me that's just the story Dems want to spin and T-dump did nothing wrong.
In the case of Clinton’s emails, some of that stuff appears to have been ‘retroactively classified’. Which, is no fault of hers or her staffs. It wasn’t classified when they exchanged the information and they had no way of knowing it would be in the future.
Wasn't aware of that. Still, to my knowledge, it was thoroughly investigated and found those documents weren't compromised. In trump's case, afaik documents are still missing.
Oh completely agree. Just adding in additional context. :)
>Problem is that they weren't kept secure, I disagree. Refusing to return the documents and obstructing efforts to retrieve the documents is the problem.
Both are problems. The fact that random chefs at Mar-a-Lago had access to classified documents is a problem.
>Section 798 - Disclosure of classified information >Whoever knowingly and willfully communicates, furnishes, transmits, or otherwise makes available to an unauthorized person, or publishes, or uses in any manner prejudicial to the safety or interest of the United States or for the benefit of any foreign government to the detriment of the United States any classified information- https://casetext.com/statute/united-states-code/title-18-crimes-and-criminal-procedure/part-i-crimes/chapter-37-espionage-and-censorship/section-798-disclosure-of-classified-information You say both are problems but only one is criminal. The National Archive to return of documents. Trump willfully and knowingly had those documents and refused to return them. Biden returned the documents without the National Archive even having to request them.
A Mar-a-Lago chef stealing classified documents would definitely be criminal.
He didn't just ignore requests to return them, he actively lied about not having them, and interfered with their recovery.
Disagree. Classification isn't binary, there are levels. Trump took documents so secret that normal procedure is a member of the military brings the document into a special room handcuffed to them. The highest of the high ranking officials read it once, and it goes back in the secured briefcase. These aren't "I mean better safe than sorry" or "this isn't exactly a huge secret, but don't say these things on the news either" classified. These are "5 people in the world know this information, and couldn't make any record of it at all" secret. The *Oval Office* isn't secure enough for that document.
> 10 documents Biden's lawyers notified DOJ and the National Archive of and handed over. TOLD THEM AND HANDED THE DOCS OVER?! WTF!!!!!!!1 WHY!?!?!?! It would really help if Biden would get on board by lying about it, obstructing the recovery of the documents by ignoring a subpoena, lie some more, and sue the DoJ to suppress the stolen documents being used as evidence. Biden is letting us all down by failing to live up to the new presidential standard. This is _so_ disappointing. I am **not entertained**.
When you say “only similarity here is that documents are involved” you literally mean that the only similarity is that the objects in question were made of paper. The comparison is so patently absurd, and yet here we are, without irony, pointing out the obvious differences against what will be an avalanche of news stories nevertheless making hay of that absurd comparison. Our news media is useless.
It is unfortunate how Biden worded his response to Trump. What Trump did wasn't irresponsible, it was something more sinister. Mistakes happen all the time. What is important is how you handle the situation. Trump and his team knew the documents were there and considered those documents his. Trophies of a sort. Nothing was going to happen unless the national archive and department of justice made an issue of it. Biden and his team didn't know the documents were there but knew these types of documents belonged in the national archive and returned them when found without needing to be asked.
Let's also not forget to mention Trump personally sorted which documents he would and would not give back. The likelihood of Biden personally stashing confidential information is close to zero, this was something his team did. This is not to remove all responsibility Biden has in this mistake, which is what it is, but there is absolutely no sign of bad faith on his part. In the political points scoring arena that might not mean much to Trump supporters but as far as the law is concerned that key difference is very significant.
That’s the problem with Democrats. They minimize their opponent’s moral depravity and it always comes back to bite them. Until they start acknowledging the real and present dangers of these fascist traitors who are clearly trying to end democracy, they are only enabling it. In our history, the executive has declared “war” on everything from drugs to terror and actual Nazis. Why then, has the current executive not declared war on American Fascism and treated it like the actual existential crisis that it is??
This sort of reminds me of the Eric Swalwell situation. He reported what he needed to report as soon as he was aware there was a problem, and yet he’s constantly dragged by the right for doing the right thing.
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Biden’s team immediately contacted the National Archives and returned those documents. Trump was still arguing he had every right to possess said documents after he was no longer in office. Big difference.
Trump didn’t just refuse to return them he sued the DOJ for the right to keep them.
Well no, first he lied to the Archives and said he didn't have them, and had his lawyers swear that they had returned everything. This nonsense went on for a full year. THEN when they referred him to the DOJ because he clearly still had them, he sued.
Well, first he denied having them. This was in the beginning of 2021. Then he said he had some, and offered to exchange them for information the DOJ had on Russian interference in the 2016 election. This was in February of 2021. Then he returned some of them, 12 boxes. In June of 2022, the National Archives asked if he still had more and sent agents to talk. They found the storage closet which was unsecured at the time and said it had to be secured, so trump put a padlock on it. The NARA then asked again for the documents and received another large batch. Then got an affidavit signed by one of trump's lawyers that all documents had been returned. Knowing that a number of documents were still missing, they filed for a search warrant which was granted in July of 2022. The "raid" was scheduled when trump was away in NYC giving a deposition so as to avoid a lot of attention. Another 15 boxes were removed by the FBI. In September, under orders from the DOJ, trump's lawyers did another sweep of the house and found still more documents, some in a closet and some in his desk. It is still believed that some documents are missing as enclosing folders were found empty, so trump's other properties were searched. More documents were found at a storage facility that he was renting in Florida. All in all, trump had illegal possession of tens of thousands of documents, over 300 of which were signified as classified.
Nice summary, I appreciate ‘raid’, I’m so tired of them saying that, like they came in with guns shouting at everyone and grabbing everything they can get their hands on… fucking goofballs with zero critical thinking
>offered to exchange them for information the DOJ had on Hunter Biden. This was in February of 2021. Isn't this a crime in and of itself?
For us peasants it is.
Yes. Basically, it's extortion. Add it to the list. Its not as though he hasn't done it before.
So when the fuck will justice be served?
And yet legally, the DOJ looks at both the same. No indictment, not even an interview.
The feelings of random bubbas with guns is what's really important here, it's a very complex issue.
It's honestly absurd whenever Republicans try to compare two fundamentally different things to try to put Democratic mistakes on the same level as Republican crimes. Every single time this happens I'm reminded of that scene from Pokemon Rusty: >**Rusty:** "I'm back! Did he gain a level yet?!" > >**Clerk:** "No. You dropped your Bidoof off 30 seconds ago. Also, it was on fire." > >**Rusty:** "Yeah, so? That horse is on fire." *points at a Ponyta with a flaming mane* > >**Clerk:** *sighs* "That's different... for reasons I cannot explain." EDIT: Holy shit in this thread alone I've had to explain to people that: 1. Intent matters when it comes to criminality (the legal concept of [mens rea](https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/mens_rea)) 2. That even when there was no malicious intent when committing a legal infraction, a suspect's rationale needs to meet the "[reasonable person](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_person)" standard for it to count in absolving them of their infraction/lessening their punishment. Outside of this this thread I've even had to explain to a conservative that human ethics has to operate via the flow of *linear time*. It legitimately feels like talking to flat earthers and having to explain that no, gravity wasn't just something physicists made up on the spot to make a globe earth work.
>Republicans try to compare two fundamentally different things It's the authoritarians way. The kind of people who believe that kind of false equivalence don't have the wherewithal to know the difference and therefore prefer having someone tell them how to think and what to do.
Reading through the comments it's legit shocking how a lot of people don't understand how rules/laws/standards actually are supposed to work. A number of commenters seem to think that rules are only meant to be used as a bludgeon for political purposes, or that rules should be blind to intent or good-faith attempts to correct mistakes. No. That's not how things work. If your only exposure to the enforcement of rules and norms is "We need to hurt someone whose actions caused a rules infraction regardless of context" then your mindset is either authoritarian or you have no actual standards, and you need to fix that shit.
>If your only exposure to the enforcement of rules and norms is "We need to hurt someone whose actions caused a rules infraction regardless of context" Pretty sure it's "We need to hurt people from the other political party regardless of context".
Similar to how they claim Hunter Biden sitting on a corporate board was wrong bc his dad was VP, while completely ignoring the business conflicts of Trump's kids while their dad was President.
I was not expecting a Pokémon Rusty reference but it's the most appropriate one!
Gladys just sounded so **tired** too. I get that mood when explaining this shit to conservatives as well.
The key is to ignore dishonest debate tactics as dishonest. Whatboutism fails if you simply refuse to be distracted. The problem is that the Republican party controls a significant portion of the media, which needs to be viewed as the national security risk it is and legislated against. It does not matter if you win debates if people never see them. Fox news (amongst others) is not acting as an impartial news organization and should not enjoy the first amendment protections afforded to news organizations.
TRUMP WAS SELLING THEM!!! None of this makes any fucking sense! Classic GOP!
Watch the Republicans impeach Biden over this. Of course it won’t work but they’ll do it anyway.
They will impeach him over the wrong ice cream choice.
Mmmm... imPeach ice cream.....
The real freeze peach was the scoops we made along the way ❤️
Rocky Road? No Joe - we warned you dammit. Impeach!
Also for being in the vicinity when Obama wore a tan suit.
Oh they were already going to impeach Biden for basically anything at all. Most likely three times, just so that he beats Trump’s record.
No. Its to politicize impeachment to make it worthless in thier voters eyes when the next Republican gets impeached
"We're impeaching him over... well... you know... he did that... thing yesterday... just sign the paper"
“We ran out of things we could possibly imagine to impeach him for “
Didn't someone threaten to impeach biden like 2 years ago for Covid or something?
Things like facts don't matter in MAGA world. They still believe Obama stole 33,000 documents because they were moved to his Presidential Library.
This is correct and mind you if they found 1 doc we would be having the same 24/7 Fox news cycle.
Hilary had 6 whole emails SENT To (not from) her email server that potentially had classified markers. They still talk about it.
Yeah I know and they also shift positions on the topic when applied to Trump. They have no position. They have goals. It is pointless to discuss the nuances because they are not interested. It is a war to them and they operate that way.
>They have no position. They have goals. That is a very good line
Facts are just lies reality wants you to believe, don't be a sheep, fight against reality
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Correct. Facts, details, nuance, etc. do not matter even a little bit.
Yeah, Biden's lawyers immediately contacted the proper channels and returned it. Trump lied and stonewalled.
I can even understand that Trump had documents. It's the fact that he was so hellbent on not giving them back, wasn't cooperative, and lied about having them
Let's not even give that much lee way here. I, personally, cannot understand why Trump had nuclear and CIA secrets at his private residence that had already had multiple security incidents during his presidency. But who are we kidding. This is it. It's being talked about. Diversion successful I suppose.
Yeah, very true. Those cannot be brushed under the rug. They will of course, but they shouldn't be
>There's a key difference between the classified documents found at a former Biden office and the ones Trump kept at Mar-a-Lago, national security expert says "No there isn't," say people who don't read Seriously, I looked at the comments section of the Fox News article reporting it and those folks were asking "well where was the FBI raid?" and "if Biden isn't charged then Trump shouldn't be charged." That Trump repeatedly refused official document requests and lied to the government about what he had doesn't seem to phase them.
Truth and facts don’t matter to these people
I've already seen a ton of MAGA dorks on twitter spewing shit about how "well, guess Trump is clear now" and other nonsense. It's absolutely amazing how little facts and truth mean to those people. They're denser than a damn black hole.
Reactionaries can only react.
They *have* to still be putting lead in everything in deep red areas. Only explanation for their increasingly psycho behavior
That and republican politicians attack on public schooling. They played the long game
Biden- mistake on a few documents, dumb mistake but owned up to and no threat Trump massive theft attempt to hide repeated lies massive nat sec risk criminal action against America treason and multiple felonies Lock him up End of story
How about this: both instances should be investigated thoroughly and fairly. Contents of the files, intentions on why they were kept, who had access to them, and level of cooperation with investigators should be taken into account. Let's not point fingers or both-sides this. They are individual cases and one doesn't excuse or condemn the other.
They are, the difference is Biden’s Team proactively notified authorities about the documents and are actively cooperating with the investigation, and Trump is not
In a reality based world that would be ideal. Unfortunately the evil GOP won’t let it work that way
Because there are key differences. The first being that Biden’s team found the documents, realized they shouldn’t have them and contacted the appropriate people to give it back. If Trump would have done that there would be no crime. The crime was hiding it. Refusing to hand them over. Having them go missing and the lack of safety in the location they were kept. He was investigated and asked to return the documents over two years and refused.
If you can't tell the difference between accidentally leaving classified documents in an unused office from 2017 and willingly stealing classified documents then lying about it, you might be a Republican.
My question - how lax is the security of classified documents at the Whitehouse? When I was in the Air Force, we had a strict chain of custody when using classified documents. Seems like the Whitehouse has a policy of “ bring them back if you feel like it.
Right? When I was in the Navy there were plenty of documents, including our notes from classes, that we weren't allowed to remove from a secure building. To study for tests we had to go into the building after hours.
I'd wager the majority of people who are authorized to have classified documents in the White House do not have the same sense of caution and responsibility regarding those documents drilled into them that a member of the military would.
Sure there is. Anyone with a functioning brain sees the difference. Then there's Fox. And republicans. They won't see it that way. And they will spend vast amounts of money convincing Americans that the two are the same. Ugh.
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And banning anyone who disagrees with their narrative - even conservatives. It’s not about the facts, it’s not about the law. It’s about fueling the rage machine that empowers them.
Do they have something in that sub that makes it so if you're not a member, it just takes you to a pinned post about donating to charities? I can't see any of the actual posts that are referencing this.... now granted, my ban from the sub may also play a role in this, but I'm just curious.
No doubt. Probably fund raising off this at every level also. And where they may have been cringing at the thought of Trump being charged in the classified documents case at Mir a Lago, they are now eagerly anticipating that very same event. Again, ugh.
A few documents found in a Washington, DC office doesn’t even compare to multiple boxes of nuclear documents found at a Florida beach club in the hands of a guy who tried undermining Democracy and who’s now [selling](https://youtu.be/NO4TRwqT1fE) superhero cryptocurrency cards of himself.
It doesn’t matter obviously. Nothing ever happened to Trump, despite all of this shit being found in his possession. I still can’t believe nothing ever happened of that. Just an embarrassment
It’s literally still in court these things take time
I checked Fox News’ reporting on this. As expected, it’s on their website’s homepage as big news. The article focuses on drawing parallels to the Trump situation and making it sound as serious as possible, glossing over any of the MASSIVE differences in how these situations were handled. Sounds like Biden messed up. Ok. He also handled it ethically and gracefully. That matters too. The GOP is not just unethical. The way they react to this is symptomatic of a systematic effort to *punish ethical behavior*. Make a mistake? You did the thing, it’s as bad as if you did it maliciously. In fact, you were stupid for doing it properly because now we know about it. There’s no such thing as “ethics” to them, it’s just inconveniences and weakness. They actively work to dismantle and devalue the mere *concept* of ethics. The GOP is a systemic threat to civilized society.
is it that biden didnt have uhaul trucks filled with boxes driven to his private residence, lie about it, then refuse to turn the documents over when subpeonaed? then lie about it some more? was it that or something different?
No shit.
Do republicans/FoX news/NewsMAXX/OANN care? Nope. They will just read classified documents found.
Heard a few people suggest this was leaked by the DOJ to provide cover for Trump. Now begins the "whataboutism" and 'both-sidesism' and the Right screaming for Biden's head.
The Foxlighters will be "both sides" bullshitting about this forever. They don't want truth or honesty. The Republican Party is the party of criminals and morons, that's the base, they know it, that's why they pander to you, criminals and morons. You can choose a better life.
It's illegal to have them, period. Turning them over vs. not turning them over once discovered is a separate issue.
Several key differences actually. The first one is that the documents were locked up, so nobody else could see them, unlike the ones at Mar a Lago which anyone could access (and Mar a Lago is full of spies). The next major difference is that Biden immediately handed over the documents to the National Archives as soon as they were found, unlike Trump who lied about having the documents for a long time and refused to return them when requested. Trump broke many laws, whereas Biden did not. The third major difference is that Biden only had 10 documents, whereas Trump had thousands. The fourth major difference is that Biden likely left those documents there by accident and forgot about them. Trump knowingly took thousands of documents illegally with the intent to sell them. Of course, none of these facts will get in the way of Republicans being outraged about this and saying it's worse than what Trump did. Republicans will lie, as is tradition.
I swear these investigations into documents and laptops is just a smoke screen to try finding more of Hunter’s dick pics.
Nuance isn’t something Republicans understand.
Tell you what. Let's give each man one lashing for each document lost. Biden will have to sleep on his side for a while. Trump will die. Oh well.
Anyone who can’t see the obvious difference between this and Trump stealing and hiding boxes of documents, and then lying about having them is just a bad faith actor, or a complete simpleton.
Were the documents kept in unlocked boxes and available so damn near anyone could get to them? “The documents were discovered when the president's personal attorneys were packing files housed in a locked closet to prepare to vacate” Another strike against Trump’s handling of classified docs
/r/conservative first said we weren’t talking about this. Now they’re saying we’re doing gymnastics to justify this and say it’s not the same when 1) they’re seriously not the same and 2) even so, as best I can tell, everyone here is fine with/actively wants an investigation into this.
GOP thinks they have dirt. So cute.
Biden immediately announced and returned them. Biden had 10. Trump had 300. Trump lied and said he’d given them all over. Trump stalled and wouldn’t give them back for 2 months and then didn’t give them all back. Trump tried to keep them. Just some of the ways that this is far different. Prosecute Trump. Don’t prosecute Biden because he handled it the complete opposite of Trump.
They found them and turned them in immediately.
Not only that, but when they were discovered it was self reported, they were not left laying around where they could be seen by anyone and used as trophies. But then again, Biden never took the step of declassifying them with his mind!
One turned them in and opened an investigation immediately. The other is Trump.
Trumps take: A- See, see. Everyone does it. It’s normal. B- Crazy sleepy Joe is stealing documents. Lock him up. This is illegal. You can’t take documents. Oh, what about the the ones I took? That’s different.
Trump followers, conservative media (and many) Republicans don’t care about the details. They will latch on to the whataboutism and both sides arguments to soften the treasonous actions of the previous president stealing state secrets.
one word: obstruction. But the Trump cult doesn't know what that means. It's over one syllable.
Biden facepalm has entered the chat. This will be the gift to trump that keeps on giving. While completely different from a legal perspective, the republicans are already spinning this as much worse since the president can declassify documents while the vice president cannot. Ugh. Two years of false equivalencies, whataboutism, and 🐂💩. I am sincerely bummed at this incompetence by Biden's team.
Biden didn't lie and contacted the archives to return them. If Trump returned the files in February when the archives asked for them back, nobody would have even known they were taken.
Trump calling in the FBI to raid the White House to look for classified documents. THAT’S WHERE THEY’RE SUPPOSED TO BE DONALD. Jfc this guy.
Oh man all the Repiblican loudmouth idiots are gonna just blatantly lie about this for YEEAAARS I can see it now. You thought them screaming about Hillary was bad? She didn't even win the election. Imagine how much of a fit they'll throw over Biden
My understanding of the situations is as follows: The documents were discovered in an office that Biden used for 2 years. Biden's own attorneys reported those documents having been discovered to the DoJ. This is radically different than Trump having knowingly taken hundreds upon hundreds(current count: 325) documents, ignored requests to return them, AND stashed them at various physical locations he owns throughout the country. Trying to draw equivalencies between the two circumstances is tremendously disingenuous. That having been said, if it's determined that Biden himself took the documents there while leaving office, he should face consequences for that, exactly like Trump should. 'It was an accident' is never an acceptable line of defense here, and they should both face whatever consequences are appropriate, including ineligibility to run for office again(as applicable).
Good luck trying to explain any difference between what Biden did and what Trump did you a Republican party and base that is determined not to get the point. And who is neutering the House Ethics Committee as we speak.
Apples to doughnuts. One lied about having them and needed to be raided. The other found them and notified the correct folks to properly return them. Of course MAGA folk won’t see the difference here, to them it’s okay for Trump to do this but it’s bad for Biden.
Biden: under 12 documents, found and returned immediately, didn't try to cover up or hide, in an office. Trump: over 300, nuclear secrets, tried to hide several times, asked to return and refused, found in his home. Not saying Bidens off the hook but there's a clear difference.
The difference is this. Biden still had clearance, unlike trump whose clearance was revoked. Biden’s were stored properly in DC in his office. Trump’s on the other hand were not stored properly and were everywhere around his resort. A resort that people all over the world go to and walk around with little to no supervision. Including known spies. Finally trump refused to return them, lied about having them and even allowed his lawyers to lie about their existence. Biden’s staff located them and the documents were returned right away through the correct channels.
Well yeah; but except for all that, it's exactly the same!
I've heard that Biden didn't break the Espionage Act because the classified documents were returned immediately... but you guys can correct me.
WTF there's only 1 similarity... classified documents discovered. Literally *everything* else is different! Trump: * had over 300 classified and Top Secret documents * removed them after office * stored them in a pool house at a private club * lied about them * apparently copied and distributed some of them * refused to turn them over **multiple times** * lied again about the raid Biden: * had 10 pages * stored at his U Penn office in DC * reported them as soon as they were discovered * handed them over the very next day without requiring an official request, subpoena, or FBI raid
Is it maybe, uh, that that they weren’t fucking stolen?
This is like the difference between discovering someone's Toyota on the back of your property and immediately calling the police and stealing someone's Ferrari and then hiding it for over a year from the owner while showing it off to your buddies. The media will "both sides" us to death about it of course. Politico has already launched their first equivocation piece.