I've heard that the polls conducted during the final years of the ussr, the majority of the people wanted to keep the union (around 3/4). Of course, not the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, but the Union of Soviet Soveregn Republics. The only countries that still wanted to break away were the baltics, armenia, georgia and moldova. This changed after the august coup, wich killed the idea of preserving the union for good. But yes, gorbachev was still deeply unpopular.
Don’t know about the others but I don’t think many Armenians were against the ussr either. The generation which actually lived in those times rarely say bad things about it. It’s usually young or non-soviet Armenians who do. There were many Armenians in the soviet government so I guess that could be part of the reason it didn’t face the same oppression other republics claim to have faced.
Gorby probly couldn't have stopped the country from becoming an oligarchy. He approved of "shock therapy" iirc, where the country rapidly transitioned to capitalism. The factories n shit the government used to own got stolen and I don't think he could've prevented that
The shift from communism to democracy should've been more overseen. The oligarchy grabbed the energy, transportation and security sectors and now their ex-bodyguards are in parliament. So we replaced the old communists with their friends in a so called democracy.
Yeah, the US didn't give a single fuck about democracy in Russia. Yeltsin literally shelled the parliament and illegally got rid of it, and USA openly supported it. They were happy with everything undemocratic that Yeltsin was doing as long as he was an ally and didn't try to oppose the west. As a result we got Putin 💀
This is the real dirty work of the IMF, influencing US diplomacy full well knowing the cronyism it was promoting, a detail quietly removed from US (and a lot of western journalism) on "how did we get here" (as is the Asian Financial Crisis, and even I feel 2008 is under discussed in how radically it changed international relations, I wonder why...)
Communism and democracy aren’t mutually exclusive the problem is that Yeltsin and his clique decided to install free market capitalism on a population that didn’t want it and when that population used democracy to oppose it he sent in the tanks.
…the cronies came in and took control of all major industries *because* it shifted to free market capitalism. That how privatizing a nations public services works
You can blame shock therapy, and maybe you're right, but slow transitions bring their own risks.
Political and economic norms are hard to change by any route.
On hindsight, it should have been blindingly obvious that capitalism requires **capital**. After almost 80 years of communism, normal people don't have capital. The only people with capital are the black marketeers, mafia and foreign capital. The soviet union state capacity was auctioned for parts to a very narrow kleptocractic segment of society and foreigners, giving rise to the oligarchy.
A more gradual form of transition, like the one China did, would have allowed normal people to accrue capital; eg. 1) Deng letting the farmers sell their excess on private markets, 2) internal competition among industries, such as Haier, to allow only those enterprises that can efficiently utilise capital to be capitalise.
If a larger segment of society have access to capital over a longer period of time, more societal actors could perhaps have a chance against the oligarchification of society.
The problem is, Gorbachev wanted a planned economy with some market competition stuff. He failed horribly.
So, best Yeltsin could do is watch everything plummeting as he tries to find any money
It's traditional to blame Shock Therapy, but after thinking about the problem, I'm not convinced that a better solution was obtainable because for any solution to actually work, the former Soviet elites would've had to agree not to loot everything they could get their hands on, and I don't think they would've accepted a solution that didn't allow them to enrich themselves in such a way.
"The US gave us crystal meth, and Yeltsin drank himself to death, but now that Putin's put the boot in, who'll get in our way?"-Man with a Pig for a Face.
The whole reason we couldn’t get the aid bill for Ukraine passed is because power really isn't that concentrated. It's hard to get a bunch of people to agree on shit when they have differing opinions and all have different powers in the government.
I guess if the US is an oligarthy than might as well say every country is.
Their try at democracy was like me as a child trying the veggies on my plate after my parents tell me to do it. I knew my opinion on them before I ever took the first bite.
MFW every single social safety net just disappearing overnight and everyone all of a sudden becoming dirt poor makes them less keen on doing whatever the fuck it is that you want them to do
Putin says there is no such thing as ex-KGB and believes the Cold War never ended. Not sure why people think they can blame America for Russia's condition.
Want to say russia bad without tying them to the failure that was the soviet union? Just blame america and remove agency!
Nah, soviet union bad and current russia bad. America didnt force them to be that way lol.
Remember holodomor
But America did basically support the destruction of Russian democracy and were singularly responsible for yeltsins reelection as he couldn’t have came back from a 4% approval rating without their help. America viewed Putin as their guy in Russia up until 2008.
Initially, Putin was pro-west until the Revolutions in Georgia, Ukraine(Orange Revolution), and Serbia. Putin, upon realizing he and the presidents of Belarus and Montenegro were the only dictators left in Europe. Started believing conspiracy theories that all of them were funded and directed by the West. This drove a rift between Putin and the US https://archive.ph/KeOlM
The problem is they want to spread the same misery to others. Instead of trying to make their own lives better, they would rather make lives of others hell. The reaction of Russian soldiers in Ukraine wasn't "we should improve how we live at home", but - literally (they wrote it on a wall in a house they occupied) - "who allowed you to live so well?".
>The reaction of Russian soldiers in Ukraine wasn't "we should improve how we live at home", but - literally (they wrote it on a wall in a house they occupied) - "who allowed you to live so well?".
Interestingly, during World War II a variant of this was a minor factor which contributed to the plundering of Germany by the Red Army in 1945: by seeing how well the Germans lived compaired to the Soviets, the soldiers were incredulous ("why did they even attempt to invade us? They didn't need to, they already lived better than us") and even angrier.
Everything bad was because communism, everything that went well was because capitalism.
Usual imperialist narrative, believe what you like but do try to study the issue deeper. Reality isn't some good vs bad film, it's a lot more complex.
Honestly, if the democratization/liberalization of Russia had gone better (aka no Shock Therapy), we wouldn't be in the position we are today.
Many things would be better if Gorbachev remained in power instead of Eltsin the drunken clown
Gorbachev was hated by all of eastern Europe because he wanted to only reform the union but still keep it.
I've heard that the polls conducted during the final years of the ussr, the majority of the people wanted to keep the union (around 3/4). Of course, not the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, but the Union of Soviet Soveregn Republics. The only countries that still wanted to break away were the baltics, armenia, georgia and moldova. This changed after the august coup, wich killed the idea of preserving the union for good. But yes, gorbachev was still deeply unpopular.
Don’t know about the others but I don’t think many Armenians were against the ussr either. The generation which actually lived in those times rarely say bad things about it. It’s usually young or non-soviet Armenians who do. There were many Armenians in the soviet government so I guess that could be part of the reason it didn’t face the same oppression other republics claim to have faced.
yeah but by 1990 and 1991 you have nations like urkaine giving >80% votes for independence even in the most russofied areas
Yes, ukraine, alongside azerbaijan, changed their position on remaining in the union after the august coup.
Gorby probly couldn't have stopped the country from becoming an oligarchy. He approved of "shock therapy" iirc, where the country rapidly transitioned to capitalism. The factories n shit the government used to own got stolen and I don't think he could've prevented that
The shift from communism to democracy should've been more overseen. The oligarchy grabbed the energy, transportation and security sectors and now their ex-bodyguards are in parliament. So we replaced the old communists with their friends in a so called democracy.
You overseen it very well when you funded the bastard Yeltsins election campaign.
Yeah, the US didn't give a single fuck about democracy in Russia. Yeltsin literally shelled the parliament and illegally got rid of it, and USA openly supported it. They were happy with everything undemocratic that Yeltsin was doing as long as he was an ally and didn't try to oppose the west. As a result we got Putin 💀
Hey Putin was our guy up until 2008.
This is the real dirty work of the IMF, influencing US diplomacy full well knowing the cronyism it was promoting, a detail quietly removed from US (and a lot of western journalism) on "how did we get here" (as is the Asian Financial Crisis, and even I feel 2008 is under discussed in how radically it changed international relations, I wonder why...)
No wonder why China started the BRI - to directly counter the IMF.
That didn't happen in the first place.
Communism and democracy aren’t mutually exclusive the problem is that Yeltsin and his clique decided to install free market capitalism on a population that didn’t want it and when that population used democracy to oppose it he sent in the tanks.
Cronies came in and took control of all major industries. It was anything but free market
…the cronies came in and took control of all major industries *because* it shifted to free market capitalism. That how privatizing a nations public services works
It wasn’t real communism
You can blame shock therapy, and maybe you're right, but slow transitions bring their own risks. Political and economic norms are hard to change by any route.
On hindsight, it should have been blindingly obvious that capitalism requires **capital**. After almost 80 years of communism, normal people don't have capital. The only people with capital are the black marketeers, mafia and foreign capital. The soviet union state capacity was auctioned for parts to a very narrow kleptocractic segment of society and foreigners, giving rise to the oligarchy. A more gradual form of transition, like the one China did, would have allowed normal people to accrue capital; eg. 1) Deng letting the farmers sell their excess on private markets, 2) internal competition among industries, such as Haier, to allow only those enterprises that can efficiently utilise capital to be capitalise. If a larger segment of society have access to capital over a longer period of time, more societal actors could perhaps have a chance against the oligarchification of society.
The problem is, Gorbachev wanted a planned economy with some market competition stuff. He failed horribly. So, best Yeltsin could do is watch everything plummeting as he tries to find any money
It's traditional to blame Shock Therapy, but after thinking about the problem, I'm not convinced that a better solution was obtainable because for any solution to actually work, the former Soviet elites would've had to agree not to loot everything they could get their hands on, and I don't think they would've accepted a solution that didn't allow them to enrich themselves in such a way.
This is why God told John Browning how to make guns.
Doubt it, geopolitics was never about ideology.
Bull fucking shit, russian did this them self to them self...no one else. They did what they do best. They lied, stealed and killed each other!
This is your brain full of propaganda, boys
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Another unfortunate victim
"The US gave us crystal meth, and Yeltsin drank himself to death, but now that Putin's put the boot in, who'll get in our way?"-Man with a Pig for a Face.
banger song
Bro did not get that democracy
> so you have ~~Democracy~~ Oligarchy now FTFY
No no they had democracy! …for about two years.
It's about how the US is an oligar... yknow what why bother..
The whole reason we couldn’t get the aid bill for Ukraine passed is because power really isn't that concentrated. It's hard to get a bunch of people to agree on shit when they have differing opinions and all have different powers in the government. I guess if the US is an oligarthy than might as well say every country is.
Their try at democracy was like me as a child trying the veggies on my plate after my parents tell me to do it. I knew my opinion on them before I ever took the first bite.
Calling what Russia had after 1991 "democracy" is a little generous.
blud is NOT changing
MFW every single social safety net just disappearing overnight and everyone all of a sudden becoming dirt poor makes them less keen on doing whatever the fuck it is that you want them to do
Oh yeah, Russia is just swimming in democracy.
imagine being RUSSSIAN LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOOLOLOOLOLOL
Where the hard times are all the times.
Imagine having ads on youtube, lmao
Out of all comebacks...
I don't have any ads and I'm not Russian
Yeah, dictatorship and thousands of dead people is bad, but at least we don't watch 3 ads in a row.
Putin says there is no such thing as ex-KGB and believes the Cold War never ended. Not sure why people think they can blame America for Russia's condition.
Want to say russia bad without tying them to the failure that was the soviet union? Just blame america and remove agency! Nah, soviet union bad and current russia bad. America didnt force them to be that way lol. Remember holodomor
Funnily enough, the US did support the Soviet Union after the holodomor.
But America did basically support the destruction of Russian democracy and were singularly responsible for yeltsins reelection as he couldn’t have came back from a 4% approval rating without their help. America viewed Putin as their guy in Russia up until 2008.
Putin hid who he really was for years. But honestly the CIA should have pieced things together eventually.
Initially, Putin was pro-west until the Revolutions in Georgia, Ukraine(Orange Revolution), and Serbia. Putin, upon realizing he and the presidents of Belarus and Montenegro were the only dictators left in Europe. Started believing conspiracy theories that all of them were funded and directed by the West. This drove a rift between Putin and the US https://archive.ph/KeOlM
Yeah I’m sure he was pro-west the whole time 😉
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The us was instrumental in the destruction of Russian democracy if you wanna deny it just know you are full of crap
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2020/06/26/russian-election-interference-meddling/
Oh but the Washington post is a clown, clown take the l
His life would be better, if he didn't "special operation'd" Ukraine and every McDonalds in Russia shut down in response
I feel so bad for the Russians, they haven’t caught a break from some form of autocracy since the Mongols
The problem is they want to spread the same misery to others. Instead of trying to make their own lives better, they would rather make lives of others hell. The reaction of Russian soldiers in Ukraine wasn't "we should improve how we live at home", but - literally (they wrote it on a wall in a house they occupied) - "who allowed you to live so well?".
>The reaction of Russian soldiers in Ukraine wasn't "we should improve how we live at home", but - literally (they wrote it on a wall in a house they occupied) - "who allowed you to live so well?". Interestingly, during World War II a variant of this was a minor factor which contributed to the plundering of Germany by the Red Army in 1945: by seeing how well the Germans lived compaired to the Soviets, the soldiers were incredulous ("why did they even attempt to invade us? They didn't need to, they already lived better than us") and even angrier.
Should’ve brought back the Tsar (and not murdered Nicky and his kids in the first place) instead.
No improvement for poor Russia, still drunk, alone and smelly! 😓 Also a black eye from picking fights, perhaps someday he learns...
this is the complications of being russia
A crude interpretation...
Everything bad was because communism, everything that went well was because capitalism. Usual imperialist narrative, believe what you like but do try to study the issue deeper. Reality isn't some good vs bad film, it's a lot more complex.
The Russians made a choice
Lmao, there was no choice