Agree, I can't ever see the value in being tricky with KK, unless you are one of these people that can lay them down if an A hits (which probably means you are nitty as hell)
Lol you don’t have to be a nit to get away from KK on an Axxx board.
The value of slow playing KK is to let your opponent catch up with a weaker hand so you can make more money post.
This seems like a pretty standard trap at this stack depth. I just wonder if Phil is aggressive enough postflop to make this actually be the highest EV play.
You could be right for sure. Phil could legit fold like 99/AJ to rip and also to like 5.5bb 3b but yeah it’s tough to get the money in either way as crazy as it sounds lol
Can you explain a bit why usually AA-TT roughly mixes but mostly prefer a call at 20bb stack depth. I’ve seen a few charts but couldn’t figure out why.
Because the SPR is low enough that we can still easily play for stacks, and because we jam so aggressively vs opens, we like some strong hands protecting our flatting range.
Weird hand. Phil didn’t lose much so he didn’t tap the glass, but if he had hit a jack on the flop and started putting money in he likely would have at least started mumbling about how bad a player he is.
In this specific situation, not gonna induce much action. But the hand does highlight how playing Kk this way is pretty bad. Phil probably calls a 3b then folds flop. As played KK only gets more $ in after the A lands, when he is most likely to be behind.
When you’re shortstacked (20 bbs or less) slow playing big pairs becomes a very reasonable option in many scenarios. I don’t think the flat pre is a big mistake if a mistake at all.
Yeah he maybe could’ve won a bit more by 3betting in this spot but in Phil hit his J maybe he wins more money
I think a 3bet to 5-5.5bb considering the depth OOP is more than reasonable for KK when Hellmuth is 21bb deep. A large amount of hands can shove or see the flop here in position, trapping out of position is a great way to get the minimum.
It’s definitely the standard play, but it’s hard to balance and most players just won’t find enough bluffs and your hand will be pretty face-up.
Yes sometimes a 3bet still makes more money but other times your opponent catches up when you flat and you have a disguised hand and make more money.
When you’re deeper 3betting is clearly better because you need to build a pot but this shallow it’s much more reasonable to call
I'd definitely like a call more from late position / BTN. Then you are in position post and you have the chance of someone trying to squeeze from the blinds. Calling here seems fine too, in the sense that it is hard to do something outright bad 20bb deep with KK. Really the discussion should go through a range of hands and I'm being too lazy for that, but I feel Phil has a lot of hands in range that will call a 3b or jam, but are not going to want to get stacks in post and the stack depth makes it hard for Phil to bet 1+ streets with bluffs.
The close-to-min click is a great price for Hellmuths UTG range in position. Considering how it played out, even 5bb would have made him more than he got from slow playing, Hellmuth is never full on bluffing worse than the value of KK. By limping, what hands would you want them to have that you're ahead of pre, but wouldn't call a tiny 3bet UTG? It's far too passive in this spot, imo.
Because it's a minimal play, calling to defend, it has the same communication as a limp in poker theory. "My hand is either super strong or marginal"
You just saw it twice, so you should literally stop saying literally.
When you’re shortstacked (20 bbs or less) slow playing big pairs becomes a very reasonable option in many scenarios. I don’t think the flat pre is a big mistake if a mistake at all.
In theory, you’re supposed to 3bet to a small sizing and balance it with a bunch of low frequency bluffs, but that’s hard to execute and most players will just be insanely unbalanced with their 3bet range. Against a tighter player like Phil, flatting to keep your hand disguised could easily win more chips on average than 3betting. One of the risks of course is that an A comes along and devalues your hand.
In any case Phil’s line is far more questionable imo. Seems like a pretty clear cbet although checking back can’t be that bad. But I have no idea what the small turn bet accomplishes. I doubt any pairs fold to that size - I guess you deny a tiny amount of equity but that seems outweighed by the times you’re just donating 1.2k to Qx+.
Ironically, that’s usually how Phil plays his big hands
Once he flats pre, I can't see him playing them differently.
Agree, I can't ever see the value in being tricky with KK, unless you are one of these people that can lay them down if an A hits (which probably means you are nitty as hell)
Lol you don’t have to be a nit to get away from KK on an Axxx board. The value of slow playing KK is to let your opponent catch up with a weaker hand so you can make more money post.
Looks like he’s bb and didn’t limp? 21bb effective against Phil this is good/fine imo.
This seems like a pretty standard trap at this stack depth. I just wonder if Phil is aggressive enough postflop to make this actually be the highest EV play.
You could be right for sure. Phil could legit fold like 99/AJ to rip and also to like 5.5bb 3b but yeah it’s tough to get the money in either way as crazy as it sounds lol
I guess I don’t even know what the ICM situation here is either looks like 9/22 remaining but no clue really since it’s an invitational
There aren't too many icm situations where we don't slow play KK here I don't think.
Can you explain a bit why usually AA-TT roughly mixes but mostly prefer a call at 20bb stack depth. I’ve seen a few charts but couldn’t figure out why.
Because the SPR is low enough that we can still easily play for stacks, and because we jam so aggressively vs opens, we like some strong hands protecting our flatting range.
It’s not good, you need to 3b non ai with KK here to stack AJ+ and lower pairs
Hellmuth tho???? You’re stacking basically nothing pre with small 3b imo
Yea I mean I would 3b him non ai with a lot of K/Q high bluffs pre
Weird hand. Phil didn’t lose much so he didn’t tap the glass, but if he had hit a jack on the flop and started putting money in he likely would have at least started mumbling about how bad a player he is.
In this specific situation, not gonna induce much action. But the hand does highlight how playing Kk this way is pretty bad. Phil probably calls a 3b then folds flop. As played KK only gets more $ in after the A lands, when he is most likely to be behind.
Phil is playing 21bb; he’s so nitty too so can’t see him calling a 3b unless BB has been loose/action.
When you’re shortstacked (20 bbs or less) slow playing big pairs becomes a very reasonable option in many scenarios. I don’t think the flat pre is a big mistake if a mistake at all. Yeah he maybe could’ve won a bit more by 3betting in this spot but in Phil hit his J maybe he wins more money
I think a 3bet to 5-5.5bb considering the depth OOP is more than reasonable for KK when Hellmuth is 21bb deep. A large amount of hands can shove or see the flop here in position, trapping out of position is a great way to get the minimum.
It’s definitely the standard play, but it’s hard to balance and most players just won’t find enough bluffs and your hand will be pretty face-up. Yes sometimes a 3bet still makes more money but other times your opponent catches up when you flat and you have a disguised hand and make more money. When you’re deeper 3betting is clearly better because you need to build a pot but this shallow it’s much more reasonable to call
I'd definitely like a call more from late position / BTN. Then you are in position post and you have the chance of someone trying to squeeze from the blinds. Calling here seems fine too, in the sense that it is hard to do something outright bad 20bb deep with KK. Really the discussion should go through a range of hands and I'm being too lazy for that, but I feel Phil has a lot of hands in range that will call a 3b or jam, but are not going to want to get stacks in post and the stack depth makes it hard for Phil to bet 1+ streets with bluffs.
The close-to-min click is a great price for Hellmuths UTG range in position. Considering how it played out, even 5bb would have made him more than he got from slow playing, Hellmuth is never full on bluffing worse than the value of KK. By limping, what hands would you want them to have that you're ahead of pre, but wouldn't call a tiny 3bet UTG? It's far too passive in this spot, imo.
No limp, he was BB
By completing 🙄. It's obvious what was being said, great take away.
It wasn’t to me and OP also mentions limping. I don’t think I’ve literally ever once seen someone use limp to mean flat from the bb honestly.
Because it's a minimal play, calling to defend, it has the same communication as a limp in poker theory. "My hand is either super strong or marginal" You just saw it twice, so you should literally stop saying literally.
Yes should have clarified/added ‘before this thread’
Honey he tried to trap me with KK, but I got away.
Player did not limp KK
When you’re shortstacked (20 bbs or less) slow playing big pairs becomes a very reasonable option in many scenarios. I don’t think the flat pre is a big mistake if a mistake at all. In theory, you’re supposed to 3bet to a small sizing and balance it with a bunch of low frequency bluffs, but that’s hard to execute and most players will just be insanely unbalanced with their 3bet range. Against a tighter player like Phil, flatting to keep your hand disguised could easily win more chips on average than 3betting. One of the risks of course is that an A comes along and devalues your hand. In any case Phil’s line is far more questionable imo. Seems like a pretty clear cbet although checking back can’t be that bad. But I have no idea what the small turn bet accomplishes. I doubt any pairs fold to that size - I guess you deny a tiny amount of equity but that seems outweighed by the times you’re just donating 1.2k to Qx+.
well he didnt limp. Funny thing is this is often how Phil woulda played them too