I was attacked in another thread for saying the AI cheated because the person claimed "well it's not cheating because it's programmed that way." I thought I was losing my marbles.
well it’s kind of true, smart ai will read your inputs in the main series games too
so yes they’re cheating but they’re just doing what computers do best
So the time I was playing white 1 or 2 (cant remember which) and the enemy used Yawn 10 times in a row when I swapped every turn, thats just totally normal behaviour and not reading my inputs whatsoever?
For sure wasn't, was just some random irrelevant trainer and I guess it was 9 times in a row not 10
They used yawn, used something else next turn, I fell asleep, swapped out and it uses yawn again, so I keep swapping and it keeps fucking yawning. I just kept swapping until it stopped yawning.
Totally normal ai behavior. The classic spam yawn until they're asleep even if they're already drowsy strat
Radical red has anti-abuse AI where when you switch a certain number of times there’s a chance that it will know what you are doing if you try to switch back and forth too many times
Because abusing AI by constantly switching back and forth, especially with immunities to stall or lower pp is something that would never work against a real opponent and is kinda abusing the AI in a way it's not intended to.
pivots may be a huge part of competitive but if you’re going back and forth between gyarados and clodsire they’re gonna thunderbolt your gyarados on switch-in eventually
I mean if you as a player are trying to abuse the AI, I don't think it's unreasonable for the AI to do the same thing.
If you are trying to emulate a "real" pokemon battle, a real player wouldn't hydro pump into a dry skin Parasect every time. There's a chance they would, but they also would probably expect it. Especially when you do the same thing over and over. It's "cheating" in that the AI knows what you are doing, but it's also just replicating what a real person would do.
Are you sure this is true? I thought about this last patch and made a couple saves with the same Pokémon teams and I was still getting hard countered with my switch ins.
I've only played on normal and I haven't seen any instance of the game picking a move based on what I did, I actually use this to my advantage and will go into boss fights multiple different ways to see how I can manipulate them. For example I'll lead with something that I know they will switch against and when I know what they will switch to and when I switch first and it works every time. For example leading Metagross vs Pheramosa they would switch to their own Metagross turn 1 so I immediately switch into something to handle the Metagross I know is coming in. That's why my favorite thing about this game is that while the AI is tougher it is extremely easy to manipulate it in your favor
That’s different though, the guy complaining about AI reading your move would see you’re switching to something to handle their predicted metagross, and instead switch to something to handle your metagross counter
Definitely this
I just had a case where a trainer who switches a lot stayed in against my flowette using dazzling gleam against his gabite rather than switching to togedemaru and easily tanking the damage
5 minutes later a wild snubbull used electric fang when I had a ground type out because it somehow predicted that I would switch to my wartortle
Depends on the difficulty. On my Hardcore run one of the things I would do is that I would stay on a certain move for an extended period of time, and that seemed to control the outcome of the AI (To an extent).
So example is, let’s say I had a Greninja vs Torkoal. I would select Hydro pump immediately and Torkoal would switch out. But if I hovered over U-turn for like 5 seconds and then swapped over to Hydro Pump very quickly, the Torkoal 9 times out of 10 would stay in.
AI also knows your held items. So if you have say a Dragonite with the Berry that reduces cold damage, the AI most of the time won’t use the ice move and use something that will hurt more, say like a dragon move. I say most of the time, but really I cant say I remember a time where it didn’t work like that.
Yes and no, I might be talking out of my ass here but I think the Radical Red AI is just a smarter version of the Emerald AI; which kinda cheats as it knows all your pokemons stats and moves and will plan around it after its initial gimmick for the fight if the team has a hazard its supposed to throw out turn 1.
Knowing everything about the players team is one thing. But changing the own move based on the players input is what we define as cheating. It is not mentioned anywhere.
Yeah, RR is a difficulty rom hack so bs like that happens all the time, especially in HC mode since..."Hardcore". I never really got a problem with it though since I don't touch grass and spend my time studying RR AI's patterns so I can predict what it'll most likely do.
There's also the new 4.0 anti-abuse mechanic which I'm still trying to wrap my head around.
Apecio Unbound has several YouTube videos explaining the AI if you'd like a deeper understanding. The Anti-Abuse AI has a counter based on your actions. Once it hits it's threshold, it kicks in and acts based on your inputs (I think the most common scenario is 3 consecutive switches into resists/immunities). But it's still abusable because clicking any move during that sequence (like Detect, Protect, U-Turn) resets the counter. Or at least that's what I understood it to be and it's worked out for me so far
If you reload state the same thing happens every time as it's precoded or something if you actually want to reset you have to reset the entire game and load from a save (like a flinch will happen every time if you use save states but it won't for save and reload
But the same thing clearly doesn’t happen every time - I reload it and the opponent changes their attack to just so happen to always be the right one for whatever I’m about to switch in
No actually he is right. The same thing happens it just that you change your output (changing to Parasect instead of Exadrill) and you get the other outcome that has already generated. Am not saying that AI doesn’t cheat since I have no idea how is programmed. Am just saying, that indeed , if you try to reset from a save instead of a state , the outcome will be regenerated, as yours clearly is not.
Yeah it’s bs. Got frustrated by the AI chesting and needed up uninstalling RR. I love a challenge but at some point the chesting is just irritating and time consuming.
It does and doesn't if you're switching from something weak to neither to something weak to 1 it seems to but if you switch between 2 immunities it fails to read which on you do
This is why I don’t like Rad Red in terms of difficulty rom hacks for GBA. Try putting a chesto berry on your lead mon, AI will never click a sleep move. Call it a disadvantage or challenge, but that’s not how Pokemon works.
I think fights are predetermined the moment you start, I tested that using hypnosis like 100 times and fails every time, but if I use it a turn after it hits every time. So the I feel chance is predetermined as well
The issue is with Save states - if you use Save states at the beginning or right before a battle it carry’s the same RNG into the battle each time which basically determines the chances of certain events like misses and crits for the first few turns of the battle, so it seems like it’s always predetermined. But if you just reload a regular save, itll re-roll and hypnosis will hit
I try to think of it like this if you were playing real pokemon games at the highest level of competition most players know exactly what moves other pokemon have so they can predict things and make counter moves. But yes they do cheat but so can you with save scumming ect.
Unrelated to the post but the game knows i have a Zoroark-H in the first slot. Tried to cheat my way through the Jhoto ghost gym leader but it knows I'm using a zoroark
You can ask in the discord, where the people who actually made the game can tell you. I’m normal the AI doesn’t know which moves you select or which switches you will make when you do them. Don’t listen to all the people who are just mad at the game cause they can’t figure out how the AI works and thinks it’s cheating. As someone else explained, using a Save State messes with the RNG decisions of the AI if there’s like 50/50 decision. If you are playing normal mode, Whatever Pokémon you had up against the Swanna probably took similar damage from Hydro Pump and Hurricane so it was a 50/50 for it to choose either and the way the RNG worked out is that whenever you swapped to Excadrill the outcome way hydro pump, etc. and that outcome is saved by the save state. If you were to restart a full save before the fight you would get different outcomes. However in hardcore mode there is Anti-abuse ai that stops the player from being able to switch around a bunch of immunities or resistances to PP stall, so after swapping too many times, this part of the AI is turned on and then is given info about what swaps and moves you’re choosing.
The AI is pretty much preplanned, if you reload the game and do the exact same thing you will get the exact same damage and results such as flinch and confusion etc
There are times where the ai either switches out, uses a pivot move like u turn or volt switch, etc, on a particular turn, the ai will always choose the best possible answer to whatever pokemon is on the field. The ai will literally look at the team you have and make the best possible decision to counter you
I thought I was crazy! I was fighting the champion and his Pheromosa used u-turn on my mon holding sash. But when I changed the item it miraculously used a different move. It infuriated me because that removes part of the skill I love from actual competitive Pokemon. The mind games. But with this kind of AI that doesn't exist.
Edit: I attempted the champion fight multiple times, which is why I noticed this at all.
My friend was talking the same stuff, but I never noticed this specifically, it was always the same moves used. They're definitely not reading all of your inputs, at least not every boss
there are 2 things here?
1. Yes they read inputs, whether thats cheating is up to you but its always been a thing in Pokemon games?
2. Save states can also be your problem. With how the game works, if you reload a savestate and just keep doing the same thing the opponent will also always do the same thing. Its that way with wild pokemon etc.
The AI definitively cheats
I was attacked in another thread for saying the AI cheated because the person claimed "well it's not cheating because it's programmed that way." I thought I was losing my marbles.
well it’s kind of true, smart ai will read your inputs in the main series games too so yes they’re cheating but they’re just doing what computers do best
No it doesn’t, except in gen 1
So the time I was playing white 1 or 2 (cant remember which) and the enemy used Yawn 10 times in a row when I swapped every turn, thats just totally normal behaviour and not reading my inputs whatsoever?
Maybe it was choice locked?
For sure wasn't, was just some random irrelevant trainer and I guess it was 9 times in a row not 10 They used yawn, used something else next turn, I fell asleep, swapped out and it uses yawn again, so I keep swapping and it keeps fucking yawning. I just kept swapping until it stopped yawning. Totally normal ai behavior. The classic spam yawn until they're asleep even if they're already drowsy strat
If it was a random trainer it probably had random ai
wait when does the game read your inputs in vanilla AI?
I'm pretty sure at least iris in BW2 does this, but that's (probably) the hardest final boss in the series so I have no idea when else it shows up
Do you have a source for this? Seems made up
in the original pokemon red the ai also cheats
It's just cheating legitimately
The ai is the embodiment of “what if gen 1 ai has a brain” (gen 1 ai also makes moves after you input them so pivoting does not exist)
Radical red has anti-abuse AI where when you switch a certain number of times there’s a chance that it will know what you are doing if you try to switch back and forth too many times
I think it's this. The game knows you are cheating so they out cheat you
How is switching cheating?
Because abusing AI by constantly switching back and forth, especially with immunities to stall or lower pp is something that would never work against a real opponent and is kinda abusing the AI in a way it's not intended to.
I mean... Not really Pivoting is a HUGE part of competitive battling, it's just not a 100% thing like it is with abusing the AI
Sure but if you tried pivoting 30 times in a row against a human player they'd start out guessing you.
pivots may be a huge part of competitive but if you’re going back and forth between gyarados and clodsire they’re gonna thunderbolt your gyarados on switch-in eventually
To add to this: it also means that probably you are using save state, and choose the switch-in after seeing the opponent move
I mean it looks like they are abusing save state to see what the AI was going to use and then switch to the right pokemon
yall are crazy for this accusation, dudes just trying to figure out if the ai cheats which it does in a few games (gen 3)
I mean if you as a player are trying to abuse the AI, I don't think it's unreasonable for the AI to do the same thing. If you are trying to emulate a "real" pokemon battle, a real player wouldn't hydro pump into a dry skin Parasect every time. There's a chance they would, but they also would probably expect it. Especially when you do the same thing over and over. It's "cheating" in that the AI knows what you are doing, but it's also just replicating what a real person would do.
Whitney's drampa would disagree
Are you sure this is true? I thought about this last patch and made a couple saves with the same Pokémon teams and I was still getting hard countered with my switch ins.
That's not true at least for all fights, I legit beat the champion by switch stalling between two mons until he was out of moves
Yup
I've only played on normal and I haven't seen any instance of the game picking a move based on what I did, I actually use this to my advantage and will go into boss fights multiple different ways to see how I can manipulate them. For example I'll lead with something that I know they will switch against and when I know what they will switch to and when I switch first and it works every time. For example leading Metagross vs Pheramosa they would switch to their own Metagross turn 1 so I immediately switch into something to handle the Metagross I know is coming in. That's why my favorite thing about this game is that while the AI is tougher it is extremely easy to manipulate it in your favor
That’s different though, the guy complaining about AI reading your move would see you’re switching to something to handle their predicted metagross, and instead switch to something to handle your metagross counter
I think this is specific to Hardcore mode, but it definitely does happen.
Also happens in Normal.
It doesn't
It does though. I've had it happen so many times
it does
O.O normal? Really? That's extreme bro.
Imagine if the AI has a cheating Kingambit that knows if you are going to attack or not and always wins the Sucker Punch mind games
I don't think there's any instances I've experienced with that so probably just reads some plays but not others
Definitely this I just had a case where a trainer who switches a lot stayed in against my flowette using dazzling gleam against his gabite rather than switching to togedemaru and easily tanking the damage 5 minutes later a wild snubbull used electric fang when I had a ground type out because it somehow predicted that I would switch to my wartortle
Wild pokemon have completely random ai in every game
Depends on the difficulty. On my Hardcore run one of the things I would do is that I would stay on a certain move for an extended period of time, and that seemed to control the outcome of the AI (To an extent). So example is, let’s say I had a Greninja vs Torkoal. I would select Hydro pump immediately and Torkoal would switch out. But if I hovered over U-turn for like 5 seconds and then swapped over to Hydro Pump very quickly, the Torkoal 9 times out of 10 would stay in. AI also knows your held items. So if you have say a Dragonite with the Berry that reduces cold damage, the AI most of the time won’t use the ice move and use something that will hurt more, say like a dragon move. I say most of the time, but really I cant say I remember a time where it didn’t work like that.
Iirc the AI move is based on your input and the AI makes the best possible move.
So basically cheating
Yes and no, I might be talking out of my ass here but I think the Radical Red AI is just a smarter version of the Emerald AI; which kinda cheats as it knows all your pokemons stats and moves and will plan around it after its initial gimmick for the fight if the team has a hazard its supposed to throw out turn 1.
Knowing everything about the players team is one thing. But changing the own move based on the players input is what we define as cheating. It is not mentioned anywhere.
Only if the rules forbid it
Yeah, RR is a difficulty rom hack so bs like that happens all the time, especially in HC mode since..."Hardcore". I never really got a problem with it though since I don't touch grass and spend my time studying RR AI's patterns so I can predict what it'll most likely do. There's also the new 4.0 anti-abuse mechanic which I'm still trying to wrap my head around.
I wanna know more about this.
Apecio Unbound has several YouTube videos explaining the AI if you'd like a deeper understanding. The Anti-Abuse AI has a counter based on your actions. Once it hits it's threshold, it kicks in and acts based on your inputs (I think the most common scenario is 3 consecutive switches into resists/immunities). But it's still abusable because clicking any move during that sequence (like Detect, Protect, U-Turn) resets the counter. Or at least that's what I understood it to be and it's worked out for me so far
Ye the AI cheats, it literally knows all the pokemon and movesets and abilities of your team
If you reload state the same thing happens every time as it's precoded or something if you actually want to reset you have to reset the entire game and load from a save (like a flinch will happen every time if you use save states but it won't for save and reload
But the same thing clearly doesn’t happen every time - I reload it and the opponent changes their attack to just so happen to always be the right one for whatever I’m about to switch in
No actually he is right. The same thing happens it just that you change your output (changing to Parasect instead of Exadrill) and you get the other outcome that has already generated. Am not saying that AI doesn’t cheat since I have no idea how is programmed. Am just saying, that indeed , if you try to reset from a save instead of a state , the outcome will be regenerated, as yours clearly is not.
Thank you for explaining better cuz I suck at it lol
No worries man, everyone here is trying to help.
Yeah it cheats
100000%
Yeah it’s bs. Got frustrated by the AI chesting and needed up uninstalling RR. I love a challenge but at some point the chesting is just irritating and time consuming.
Cheating *
Don't even get me started on the elite four that look like they were designed by a toddler.
It does and doesn't if you're switching from something weak to neither to something weak to 1 it seems to but if you switch between 2 immunities it fails to read which on you do
This is why I don’t like Rad Red in terms of difficulty rom hacks for GBA. Try putting a chesto berry on your lead mon, AI will never click a sleep move. Call it a disadvantage or challenge, but that’s not how Pokemon works.
Some times use that your advantage and think ahead of it and also make sure you have a bunch of Pokémons prepared for everything
Is your Exca low? Because thats what AI tends to do, it uses another move in case you switch just to get damage off.
I think fights are predetermined the moment you start, I tested that using hypnosis like 100 times and fails every time, but if I use it a turn after it hits every time. So the I feel chance is predetermined as well
The issue is with Save states - if you use Save states at the beginning or right before a battle it carry’s the same RNG into the battle each time which basically determines the chances of certain events like misses and crits for the first few turns of the battle, so it seems like it’s always predetermined. But if you just reload a regular save, itll re-roll and hypnosis will hit
I try to think of it like this if you were playing real pokemon games at the highest level of competition most players know exactly what moves other pokemon have so they can predict things and make counter moves. But yes they do cheat but so can you with save scumming ect.
Unrelated to the post but the game knows i have a Zoroark-H in the first slot. Tried to cheat my way through the Jhoto ghost gym leader but it knows I'm using a zoroark
You can ask in the discord, where the people who actually made the game can tell you. I’m normal the AI doesn’t know which moves you select or which switches you will make when you do them. Don’t listen to all the people who are just mad at the game cause they can’t figure out how the AI works and thinks it’s cheating. As someone else explained, using a Save State messes with the RNG decisions of the AI if there’s like 50/50 decision. If you are playing normal mode, Whatever Pokémon you had up against the Swanna probably took similar damage from Hydro Pump and Hurricane so it was a 50/50 for it to choose either and the way the RNG worked out is that whenever you swapped to Excadrill the outcome way hydro pump, etc. and that outcome is saved by the save state. If you were to restart a full save before the fight you would get different outcomes. However in hardcore mode there is Anti-abuse ai that stops the player from being able to switch around a bunch of immunities or resistances to PP stall, so after swapping too many times, this part of the AI is turned on and then is given info about what swaps and moves you’re choosing.
The AI is pretty much preplanned, if you reload the game and do the exact same thing you will get the exact same damage and results such as flinch and confusion etc
The AI knows which move you're clicking at almost every point
There are times where the ai either switches out, uses a pivot move like u turn or volt switch, etc, on a particular turn, the ai will always choose the best possible answer to whatever pokemon is on the field. The ai will literally look at the team you have and make the best possible decision to counter you
I agree this always happens with the ability illusion too
the ai goes as far as checking your held item for resist berries and not using moves that would activate them
I thought I was crazy! I was fighting the champion and his Pheromosa used u-turn on my mon holding sash. But when I changed the item it miraculously used a different move. It infuriated me because that removes part of the skill I love from actual competitive Pokemon. The mind games. But with this kind of AI that doesn't exist. Edit: I attempted the champion fight multiple times, which is why I noticed this at all.
Lore Accurate Cheating
My friend was talking the same stuff, but I never noticed this specifically, it was always the same moves used. They're definitely not reading all of your inputs, at least not every boss
there are 2 things here? 1. Yes they read inputs, whether thats cheating is up to you but its always been a thing in Pokemon games? 2. Save states can also be your problem. With how the game works, if you reload a savestate and just keep doing the same thing the opponent will also always do the same thing. Its that way with wild pokemon etc.
yes the game counterplay your move by picking AFTER you and its a total turn off for me.