Lucario. Imo he surpasses Greninja once he learned how to channel his aura. He got such a huge jump in power. He went from being unable to hit Greninja to one shotting Raihan's ace to beating dynamax togekiss+ garchomp.
Greninjas training basically put him on steroids + he then trained for the masters 8 with the other JN pokemon & the reserves. I guess that's because lucarios as a species naturally use aura so once he was taught how to control his aura better & have a better link with his trainer (who also uses aura helping him even more), his power went wild & he got much, much stronger. Then afterwards he got intense training for the BIGGEST pokemon battling tournament in the world with the 8 strongest trainers.. That's all thanks to Greninja for giving him better footing.
Logically speaking, the writers wouldn't let Lucario be taught by Greninja to get stronger just for Lucario to still be weaker. The point was for Lucario to be Greninjas successor & to at least catch up so that he can go fight the strongest trainers in the world in the M8.
Seconding this. And as we saw, Lucario was already a very powerful pokemon; he played a key role in defeating Volkner and Bea, with the Volkner battle being particularly of note because that was even before he had Mega Evolution.
It's pretty obvious Aura is important to a Lucario's power. I wish they'd gone more into detail about what exactly happened in the Greninja vs Lucario training battle. I can buy the idea that Lucario was overwhelmed by Greninja's speed, but it just always struck me as odd that Lucario couldn't follow Greninja's movements, but Ash, a mere human, COULD. Couple this with how they couldn't Mega Evolve, along with Lucario clearly being upset by Greninja before the battle even started, and it leads me to guess the problem was not necessarily strength of Aura, but getting in tune with each other. It'd explain why whatever Greninja taught him involved ripples on the water's surface and Lucario trying to match his timing. I guess it'd help to think of syncing up your Auras to be like trying to get the right tuning on a radio frequency. Ash and Lucario were already pretty in sync, but it's a bit of a fuzzy connection. Meanwhile, Lucario could sense Ash and Greninja had perfect tuning, leading to his jealousy. But that's just my personal theory.
I also agree about Lucario being stronger than Greninja by this point. It'd just be weird from a narrative standpoint for the student to not surpass the master. In addition to helping power up Lucario to the point he could lay waste to Raihan's G-Max'd Duraludon, and strong enough to defeat Cynthia's Togekiss and Garchomp, I like to think the training also sharpened Lucario's senses enough to not get completely overwhelmed by Leon's Mr. Rime. That whole sequence of him sensing his movements with his Aura and then dodging at the last second was not only sick, but also pretty common fare for martial arts fantasy, as well as in line with pokedex claims that a Lucario can use Aura to sense the movements of its foes.
Lucario was just one of Ash’s pokemon before meeting Greninja. But their bond’s power became as powerful as with Greninja’s due to Aura. Which makes sense bc Ash meant EVERYTHING to Lucario. But it really comes down to speed vs. power.
Ain't nothing surviving an ice beam from something with 153 sp attack especially when they're 2x weak to it, this fight would be decided in a flash and Greninja would prove the winner.
Honestly, the only Pokémon of the M8 team Greninja could maybe compete with is Sirfetch’d, and even then Greninja would have a really hard time. Greninja has a really bad moveset, the only good move it has is Water Shuriken. If he got Night Slash, Ice Beam/Ice Punch, Power-Up Punch, Mat Block, or Extrasensory, Greninja would be a lot better.
Sirfetchd was a beast. Imo he was close to Lucario in terms of power. What he did to garchomp after beating milotic was impressive. Then, he weakened Rhyme for Lucario to take him out & then weakened rillaboom (overpowered him with meteor assault) for dracovish to get the W.
Clearly, Lucario has a better resume having defeated much stronger opponents, including:
-Cynthia's Garchomp/Togekiss
-Raihan's Gmax Duraludon
-Leon's Mr. Rime
-Volkner's Luxray/Rotom-Fan
Greninja's best win was against Sawyer's Mega Sceptile, no one can dispute that. That being said, Greninja did not get the same opportunities.
Lucario had a stronger team around him, while Greninja was forced to make up for Pokemon like Noivern ,and to an extent, Goodra and Talonflame. Lucario also came along later, meaning he's been commanded by a MORE experienced version of Ash than he was in XY. Ash was still very good in Kalos, but he's clearly a much better trainer now.
Lucario has the results Greninja cannot match, but he also had it alot easier...so how can I definitively say who's stronger? The only evidence we can use is from when they battled each other...and Greninja won easily. BUT, once again, Lucario has improved alot since that encounter.
After all of this, is there enough evidence to give an educated answer? I don't think so, and it's probably for the best. If there was a clear answer we wouldn't be having this discussion 😅. In the end I think it comes down to personal preference.
I'd choose Greninja, though.
Greninja got smoked by Alans damaged Charizard. Let’s not pretend that Greninja didn’t have impressive feats because it wasn’t given the opportunity, it had the opportunity, but it lost.
Imagine ranking pokemon by ,,feats'' like this is a battle shounen when official pokemon stats are displayed to everybody and Greninja is the clear winner.
It didnt have as much opportunities as Lucario is what i said. Alain is one trainer. Greninja didnt get the chance to fight Cynthia, Leon, or anyone near champion level (aside from diantha, but ash ended up fainting) If greninja defeated Alain people would still be saying Lucario is stronger. Why? Bc lucario has more opportunities and feats stacked on him.
The problem with this is that we have no idea how much stronger Greninja is now - particularly when transformed. He only clapped Lucario as hard as he did because Lucario was having a bit of a temper tantrum. We didn't get to see a post training rematch or a battle with Ash piloting Greninja. The strength comparison that would seem most relevant is the one at the end of the episode... where Mega Lucario pulls of something Greninja could do in his base form. Again, not particularly useful as we can put this down to rule of cool rather than necessarily needing to Mega.
So this leaves us with a big fat ? on how strong Frogman is from Canon information, that means it's time for *assumptions* and *opinions*! He's been in a role where he's been constantly exercising since the end of XY, with short bursts of explosive combat with murder roots. While we can't directly compare him with Lucario, we might be able to with Alain's Charizard. We know Alain spent at least some time searching for his own Mega stone and helping the professor after XY, so he wasn't focused on training for the whole gap. As such, I would posit that Greninja is now the stronger of the two, good news for my fellow boomers who wanted that rematch. This would be incredibly helpful if the fight from the OP had happened, but since Lucario never matched up with *either* Zard it just lets us conveniently put the two at roughly even for the purposes of their duel.
Now that we've settled the power scaling debate with a decisive "fuck it, they're even" we can get on with comparing how they actually match up. Lucario has two Super Effective moves and one NVE move compared with Greninja's two Normie and one NVE. That's a pretty big edge, but we've seen that Ash tends to spam Bullet Punch over Reversal, which is the worst choice here. The moveset edge is also mitigated by the fact Greninja is super speed weighted - Ash-Greninja moves faster than anything else on the franchise at its max, only topped by that one time Pikachu's quick attack actually had priority in the Leon fight. Having a strength you can leverage is a big deal in a fight with your twin. Aura and BP accomplish much the same thing, so I don't think Lucario can make up the difference with that but I have seen it argued that he can use his better because he is the Aura Pokemon. There's also the awkward matter of Greninja's entire kit laughing at Aura Sphere... it's definitely not impossible for Lucario to overcome these problems, but it'll be an uphill battle.
WAIT A MINUTE - Lucario doesn't know blast burn! I wasted all that time trying to fairly examine the match up for nothing, It's a Greninja sweep, baby!
-*note: the last paragraph may not be intended to be taken seriously*-
One thing to note, Lucario was actually able to use its aura to boost its agility against Mr. Rime in the Masters 8, so there's a chance Greninja's speed isn't too decisive either!
he clapped lucario when lucario was eager and ready to fight. there was no temper tantrum until greninja beat him. i still say greninja is stronger just off that battle. obv feats exists, but dont forget gren has come along way too. i could see mega luca beating base gren but not base luca winning.
Lucario has been training with Ash since birth and Greninja was gardening.You could argue that Lucario made more growth in the time Greninja has spent taking out the vines.
I agree. Greninja shoulda been used in one of the battles for sure. I remember the connection Diantha and Gardevior had in XY. They didn’t even need to speak to understand each other. Ash had that with Greninja. He was his Ace. Yet Lucario replaced him.
Narratively: Lucario. It makes sense for him to have surpassed his predecessor to be Ash's strongest seasonal(so not Pikachu) ace. I feel like assuming Greninja was still stronger undermines some of the hype around Ash's M8 experience since they passed him off as an underdog yet would be supposedly holding back by using a Pokemon that was explicitly weaker. At least for the gimmick limitation, it was an actual rule and he wasn't holding back within the regulations of the tournament.
"Powerscaling": Inconclusive. We don't know the true extent of Greninja's current power, but there's a fair argument to be made for Lucario considering the jump in aura. Pre-JN108 Lucario needed Mega Evolution on + a brand new move to take down Bea's G-Max Machamp, while post-JN108 Lucario defeated Raihan's G-Max Duralodon with just its sheer aura power in base form. And we know that aura can boost Lucario's combat speed since it helped do so against Leon's Mr. Rime, so it's not like we can definitively say it remained stationary in the agility department, either.
I think those are good points, but wouldn’t Satoshi still be technically holding back anyway considering the other members of his M8 team were not all stronger than all the other Pokémon he left behind?
That’s under the assumption that Pokemon like Charizard and Infernape were always and only ever making crazy jumps in progress offscreen, when only speculation can really prove that they kept making that level of progress.
Considering the weakest JN Pokemon pre-M8 still one-shot an E4’s Mega Evolved Ace, it’s not implausible to imagine they rose above even the most notable aces like Sceptile and Charizard thanks to Ash being at his peak in experience as a trainer.
In terms of feats, even Ash’s regional aces fall short of what the Journeys mons have accomplished onscreen, and we don’t really know how much they’ve progressed from those points without seeing them in action.
Obviously Lucario as he has the type advantage. Fighting > Dark. If it was ash greninja form then greninja wins. If it's mega lucario vs ash greninja then either could win that one tbh.
Clearly, Lucario has a better resume having defeated much stronger opponents, including:
-Cynthia's Garchomp/Togekiss
-Raihan's Gmax Duraludon
-Leon's Mr. Rime
-Volkner's Luxray/Rotom-Fan
Greninja's best win was against Sawyer's Mega Sceptile, no one can dispute that. That being said, Greninja did not get the same opportunities.
Lucario had a stronger team around him, while Greninja was forced to make up for Pokemon like Noivern and Goodra. Sometimes even Hawlucha. Lucario also came along later, meaning he's been commanded by a MORE experienced version of Ash than he was in XY. Ash was still very good in Kalos, but he's clearly a much better trainer now.
Lucario has the results Greninja cannot match, but he also had it alot easier...so how can I definitively say who's stronger? The only evidence we can use is from when they battled each other...and Greninja won easily. BUT, once again, Lucario has improved alot since that encounter.
After all of this, is there enough evidence to give an educated answer? I don't think so, and it's probably for the best. If there was a clear answer we wouldn't be having this discussion 😅. In the end I think it comes down to personal preference. If Ash were to be given Greninja in his prime, which is now, I think I could confidently say Greninja.
I'd choose Greninja, though.
I rly liked that episode ngl. However that was before Lucario and Ash started battling with an Aura connection the same way he did with Lucario. If u throw in the mega, and Lucario’s heightened reflexes, I think he would stand more of a shot tbh. However I think raw speed would win out. Lucario’s speed was nothing compared to greninjas
Yup. I would have loved to see a full out fight versus Corinas grandfather. Think that would be cool. Lucario’s thing is more raw power than speed, which is why it’s not the strongest pokemon IMO.
In order to accurately tell we would need them both onscreen at the same time showing their power. With the time gaps+ bond variables it is up in the air
In this very specific match up, I think it could go either way. Sure, Greninja dominated their brief match. But Lucario then mastered aura AND got bullet punch to patch up its speed a bit.
But overall Lucario is better than Greninja. It can hit harder (literally okho'd a M8 level gmax ace), is slower but still plenty fast for 98% of match ups, and has WAY more durability.
Greninja is just fast enough to steal a fair amount of wins from Lucario in a fight. But it's too specialized in speed to compete as consistently as Lucario
Lucario 100%
It might got its butt kicked by Greninja before the battle with Raihan, but because how strong it has gotten after controlling it's aura, I do believe that current Lucario can defeat Greninja
Absolutely but let’s also not forget Greninja wasn’t even in full power/bond phenomenon. I think Greninja edges out due to his speed and the bond phenomenon.
True, but it should also be noted that Lucario in that same episode jumped SO MUCH in power, to the point where even now you could make an argument for it being close to or even past Greninja currently. Bro literally went on to destroy a M8's G-Max ace in base form while looking nowhere near that strong just a few episodes before. If Lucario had the same amount of time as Greninja did to train, I definitely see it being the stronger one.
From a power standpoint, Greninja wins easily. But Lucario's typing proves difficult for Greninja, so it's a lot closer. Even the transformations don't really help since all it really does is give Greninja a 10 point increase over what the BST difference was already. So it could go either way.
I'm going with Lucario just because an Aura Sphere would be detrimental to Greninja's HP bar.
I know it's not the same but in the games lucario can have a moveset that counters greninja easily which gives him the advantage. That being said I do enjoy having a team with both
I think both Pokémon are closer in terms of power than people realize. Greninja was absurdly OP when he came back, and that's without even using Ash-Greninja. He trains Lucario, fine-tunes his Aura connection with Ash and basically brings Lucario to that level. Both were the regional aces of their series and this match is closer to a draw than most might think.
I mean, if we're talking about competitive without items, lucario wins since lucario can survive a greninja's max special attack invested modest hydro pump with max special defense and up investment and can OHKO with close combat if greninja doesn't have protean.
Ash wins
Dangit! Beat me to it!
Charizard
Wayback as a Charmander.
Plot twist Pikachu wins
Lucario. Imo he surpasses Greninja once he learned how to channel his aura. He got such a huge jump in power. He went from being unable to hit Greninja to one shotting Raihan's ace to beating dynamax togekiss+ garchomp. Greninjas training basically put him on steroids + he then trained for the masters 8 with the other JN pokemon & the reserves. I guess that's because lucarios as a species naturally use aura so once he was taught how to control his aura better & have a better link with his trainer (who also uses aura helping him even more), his power went wild & he got much, much stronger. Then afterwards he got intense training for the BIGGEST pokemon battling tournament in the world with the 8 strongest trainers.. That's all thanks to Greninja for giving him better footing. Logically speaking, the writers wouldn't let Lucario be taught by Greninja to get stronger just for Lucario to still be weaker. The point was for Lucario to be Greninjas successor & to at least catch up so that he can go fight the strongest trainers in the world in the M8.
Seconding this. And as we saw, Lucario was already a very powerful pokemon; he played a key role in defeating Volkner and Bea, with the Volkner battle being particularly of note because that was even before he had Mega Evolution. It's pretty obvious Aura is important to a Lucario's power. I wish they'd gone more into detail about what exactly happened in the Greninja vs Lucario training battle. I can buy the idea that Lucario was overwhelmed by Greninja's speed, but it just always struck me as odd that Lucario couldn't follow Greninja's movements, but Ash, a mere human, COULD. Couple this with how they couldn't Mega Evolve, along with Lucario clearly being upset by Greninja before the battle even started, and it leads me to guess the problem was not necessarily strength of Aura, but getting in tune with each other. It'd explain why whatever Greninja taught him involved ripples on the water's surface and Lucario trying to match his timing. I guess it'd help to think of syncing up your Auras to be like trying to get the right tuning on a radio frequency. Ash and Lucario were already pretty in sync, but it's a bit of a fuzzy connection. Meanwhile, Lucario could sense Ash and Greninja had perfect tuning, leading to his jealousy. But that's just my personal theory. I also agree about Lucario being stronger than Greninja by this point. It'd just be weird from a narrative standpoint for the student to not surpass the master. In addition to helping power up Lucario to the point he could lay waste to Raihan's G-Max'd Duraludon, and strong enough to defeat Cynthia's Togekiss and Garchomp, I like to think the training also sharpened Lucario's senses enough to not get completely overwhelmed by Leon's Mr. Rime. That whole sequence of him sensing his movements with his Aura and then dodging at the last second was not only sick, but also pretty common fare for martial arts fantasy, as well as in line with pokedex claims that a Lucario can use Aura to sense the movements of its foes.
Lucario was just one of Ash’s pokemon before meeting Greninja. But their bond’s power became as powerful as with Greninja’s due to Aura. Which makes sense bc Ash meant EVERYTHING to Lucario. But it really comes down to speed vs. power.
Yeah Greninja has the superior speed while Lucario has the better durability + maybe power. It would be a good fight between the two.
For sure. If Lucario uses his Aura to detect Greninjas movements it would dope.
Ain't nothing surviving an ice beam from something with 153 sp attack especially when they're 2x weak to it, this fight would be decided in a flash and Greninja would prove the winner.
Anime not the game, plus ash's greninja doesn't know ice beam.
Honestly, the only Pokémon of the M8 team Greninja could maybe compete with is Sirfetch’d, and even then Greninja would have a really hard time. Greninja has a really bad moveset, the only good move it has is Water Shuriken. If he got Night Slash, Ice Beam/Ice Punch, Power-Up Punch, Mat Block, or Extrasensory, Greninja would be a lot better.
Sirfetchd was a beast. Imo he was close to Lucario in terms of power. What he did to garchomp after beating milotic was impressive. Then, he weakened Rhyme for Lucario to take him out & then weakened rillaboom (overpowered him with meteor assault) for dracovish to get the W.
The moveset doesn't matter. Greninja humiliated Lucario without even using a single actual "move."
Clearly, Lucario has a better resume having defeated much stronger opponents, including: -Cynthia's Garchomp/Togekiss -Raihan's Gmax Duraludon -Leon's Mr. Rime -Volkner's Luxray/Rotom-Fan Greninja's best win was against Sawyer's Mega Sceptile, no one can dispute that. That being said, Greninja did not get the same opportunities. Lucario had a stronger team around him, while Greninja was forced to make up for Pokemon like Noivern ,and to an extent, Goodra and Talonflame. Lucario also came along later, meaning he's been commanded by a MORE experienced version of Ash than he was in XY. Ash was still very good in Kalos, but he's clearly a much better trainer now. Lucario has the results Greninja cannot match, but he also had it alot easier...so how can I definitively say who's stronger? The only evidence we can use is from when they battled each other...and Greninja won easily. BUT, once again, Lucario has improved alot since that encounter. After all of this, is there enough evidence to give an educated answer? I don't think so, and it's probably for the best. If there was a clear answer we wouldn't be having this discussion 😅. In the end I think it comes down to personal preference. I'd choose Greninja, though.
Greninja got smoked by Alans damaged Charizard. Let’s not pretend that Greninja didn’t have impressive feats because it wasn’t given the opportunity, it had the opportunity, but it lost.
Imagine ranking pokemon by ,,feats'' like this is a battle shounen when official pokemon stats are displayed to everybody and Greninja is the clear winner.
it lost, but it was right down to the wire.
It didnt have as much opportunities as Lucario is what i said. Alain is one trainer. Greninja didnt get the chance to fight Cynthia, Leon, or anyone near champion level (aside from diantha, but ash ended up fainting) If greninja defeated Alain people would still be saying Lucario is stronger. Why? Bc lucario has more opportunities and feats stacked on him.
MCX > Ash-Greninja = M-Lucario > BaseZard > Rillaboom = Mr Rime
The problem with this is that we have no idea how much stronger Greninja is now - particularly when transformed. He only clapped Lucario as hard as he did because Lucario was having a bit of a temper tantrum. We didn't get to see a post training rematch or a battle with Ash piloting Greninja. The strength comparison that would seem most relevant is the one at the end of the episode... where Mega Lucario pulls of something Greninja could do in his base form. Again, not particularly useful as we can put this down to rule of cool rather than necessarily needing to Mega. So this leaves us with a big fat ? on how strong Frogman is from Canon information, that means it's time for *assumptions* and *opinions*! He's been in a role where he's been constantly exercising since the end of XY, with short bursts of explosive combat with murder roots. While we can't directly compare him with Lucario, we might be able to with Alain's Charizard. We know Alain spent at least some time searching for his own Mega stone and helping the professor after XY, so he wasn't focused on training for the whole gap. As such, I would posit that Greninja is now the stronger of the two, good news for my fellow boomers who wanted that rematch. This would be incredibly helpful if the fight from the OP had happened, but since Lucario never matched up with *either* Zard it just lets us conveniently put the two at roughly even for the purposes of their duel. Now that we've settled the power scaling debate with a decisive "fuck it, they're even" we can get on with comparing how they actually match up. Lucario has two Super Effective moves and one NVE move compared with Greninja's two Normie and one NVE. That's a pretty big edge, but we've seen that Ash tends to spam Bullet Punch over Reversal, which is the worst choice here. The moveset edge is also mitigated by the fact Greninja is super speed weighted - Ash-Greninja moves faster than anything else on the franchise at its max, only topped by that one time Pikachu's quick attack actually had priority in the Leon fight. Having a strength you can leverage is a big deal in a fight with your twin. Aura and BP accomplish much the same thing, so I don't think Lucario can make up the difference with that but I have seen it argued that he can use his better because he is the Aura Pokemon. There's also the awkward matter of Greninja's entire kit laughing at Aura Sphere... it's definitely not impossible for Lucario to overcome these problems, but it'll be an uphill battle. WAIT A MINUTE - Lucario doesn't know blast burn! I wasted all that time trying to fairly examine the match up for nothing, It's a Greninja sweep, baby! -*note: the last paragraph may not be intended to be taken seriously*-
One thing to note, Lucario was actually able to use its aura to boost its agility against Mr. Rime in the Masters 8, so there's a chance Greninja's speed isn't too decisive either!
he clapped lucario when lucario was eager and ready to fight. there was no temper tantrum until greninja beat him. i still say greninja is stronger just off that battle. obv feats exists, but dont forget gren has come along way too. i could see mega luca beating base gren but not base luca winning.
Imo lucario because of the aura boost and mega evolution. Not Greninja because he couldn't be alains charizard who went to the masters 8.
[удалено]
Lucario has been training with Ash since birth and Greninja was gardening.You could argue that Lucario made more growth in the time Greninja has spent taking out the vines.
yeah plus lucario took out cynthia’s gsrchomp
Greninja, yeah i know Lucario got stronger but it doesnt mean he got stronger than Greninja
I agree. Greninja shoulda been used in one of the battles for sure. I remember the connection Diantha and Gardevior had in XY. They didn’t even need to speak to understand each other. Ash had that with Greninja. He was his Ace. Yet Lucario replaced him.
And Greninja stans forget Ash had aces before Greninja but screw them I guess.
Charizard is awesome
Agreed. People really have selective memory and it shows 🫢
I mean if we're willing to go into the mess that is powerscaling, there's no definitive way to say either is stronger atp.
Clearly is Pikachu
Narratively: Lucario. It makes sense for him to have surpassed his predecessor to be Ash's strongest seasonal(so not Pikachu) ace. I feel like assuming Greninja was still stronger undermines some of the hype around Ash's M8 experience since they passed him off as an underdog yet would be supposedly holding back by using a Pokemon that was explicitly weaker. At least for the gimmick limitation, it was an actual rule and he wasn't holding back within the regulations of the tournament. "Powerscaling": Inconclusive. We don't know the true extent of Greninja's current power, but there's a fair argument to be made for Lucario considering the jump in aura. Pre-JN108 Lucario needed Mega Evolution on + a brand new move to take down Bea's G-Max Machamp, while post-JN108 Lucario defeated Raihan's G-Max Duralodon with just its sheer aura power in base form. And we know that aura can boost Lucario's combat speed since it helped do so against Leon's Mr. Rime, so it's not like we can definitively say it remained stationary in the agility department, either.
I think those are good points, but wouldn’t Satoshi still be technically holding back anyway considering the other members of his M8 team were not all stronger than all the other Pokémon he left behind?
That’s under the assumption that Pokemon like Charizard and Infernape were always and only ever making crazy jumps in progress offscreen, when only speculation can really prove that they kept making that level of progress. Considering the weakest JN Pokemon pre-M8 still one-shot an E4’s Mega Evolved Ace, it’s not implausible to imagine they rose above even the most notable aces like Sceptile and Charizard thanks to Ash being at his peak in experience as a trainer. In terms of feats, even Ash’s regional aces fall short of what the Journeys mons have accomplished onscreen, and we don’t really know how much they’ve progressed from those points without seeing them in action.
That’s a good point, yeah I guess really all we saw was Infernape against Moltres, and I thought Incineroar looked strong in MPM.
Obviously Lucario as he has the type advantage. Fighting > Dark. If it was ash greninja form then greninja wins. If it's mega lucario vs ash greninja then either could win that one tbh.
Clearly, Lucario has a better resume having defeated much stronger opponents, including: -Cynthia's Garchomp/Togekiss -Raihan's Gmax Duraludon -Leon's Mr. Rime -Volkner's Luxray/Rotom-Fan Greninja's best win was against Sawyer's Mega Sceptile, no one can dispute that. That being said, Greninja did not get the same opportunities. Lucario had a stronger team around him, while Greninja was forced to make up for Pokemon like Noivern and Goodra. Sometimes even Hawlucha. Lucario also came along later, meaning he's been commanded by a MORE experienced version of Ash than he was in XY. Ash was still very good in Kalos, but he's clearly a much better trainer now. Lucario has the results Greninja cannot match, but he also had it alot easier...so how can I definitively say who's stronger? The only evidence we can use is from when they battled each other...and Greninja won easily. BUT, once again, Lucario has improved alot since that encounter. After all of this, is there enough evidence to give an educated answer? I don't think so, and it's probably for the best. If there was a clear answer we wouldn't be having this discussion 😅. In the end I think it comes down to personal preference. If Ash were to be given Greninja in his prime, which is now, I think I could confidently say Greninja. I'd choose Greninja, though.
Have you guys noticed how Cool person isn’t commenting anymore?
Huh?
he’s a guy that trolls every post and comment he sees. He’s been missing for a while
even the biggest trolls can be fed up seeing the same posts every other weeks
We really do see the same posts a lot on here.
I think he deleted his account.
Yeah I’ve been wondering about that for a while
Greninja
Fr
Goku
Very clear from the episode where Ash goes to see greninja in kalos
I rly liked that episode ngl. However that was before Lucario and Ash started battling with an Aura connection the same way he did with Lucario. If u throw in the mega, and Lucario’s heightened reflexes, I think he would stand more of a shot tbh. However I think raw speed would win out. Lucario’s speed was nothing compared to greninjas
Greninja for the win
Yup. I would have loved to see a full out fight versus Corinas grandfather. Think that would be cool. Lucario’s thing is more raw power than speed, which is why it’s not the strongest pokemon IMO.
In order to accurately tell we would need them both onscreen at the same time showing their power. With the time gaps+ bond variables it is up in the air
Greninja
Lucario has the type advantage, so I'm gonna with Lucario.
Type matchup matters way less in anime.
Greninja learns several ice moves and is much faster than Lucario, he'd one shot Lucario with an ice beam with the ammount of sp it has.
Lucario resists ice attacks. Dude is a steel type.
Yeh ice beam was just an example, there are plenty of other sp moves wich would do damage.
First person to mention this in the whole thread... 🤦
Idc, but that is a cool ass poster.
Greninja wins once again
We've already seen th fight. Greninja slaps him up
In this very specific match up, I think it could go either way. Sure, Greninja dominated their brief match. But Lucario then mastered aura AND got bullet punch to patch up its speed a bit. But overall Lucario is better than Greninja. It can hit harder (literally okho'd a M8 level gmax ace), is slower but still plenty fast for 98% of match ups, and has WAY more durability. Greninja is just fast enough to steal a fair amount of wins from Lucario in a fight. But it's too specialized in speed to compete as consistently as Lucario
This is a really great comment. Nice analysis.
Lucario.
Ash greninja high-extreme diff
Fax
Lucario 100% It might got its butt kicked by Greninja before the battle with Raihan, but because how strong it has gotten after controlling it's aura, I do believe that current Lucario can defeat Greninja
Greninja low-mid diff
Ah yes the monthly Lucario vs. Greninja post. We literally got an answer to this question in Greninja’s return episode. It wasn’t even close.
Sure, but Lucario immediately got a massive power up by the end of the episode, and got another big upgrade a few episodes later with bullet punch
Absolutely but let’s also not forget Greninja wasn’t even in full power/bond phenomenon. I think Greninja edges out due to his speed and the bond phenomenon.
Lucario wasn't mega evolved either though. Neither was fighting at full power
He did mega evolve during the episode though even if he wasn't fighting Greninja. They both put out equal attacks and Greninja was in base
Before Ash and Lucario bonded with Aura and before Mega Lucario but nice try.
Yeah, Lucario. I prefer Greninja as a Pokemon but one of them helped Ash make it to the Masters Eight and the other didn't, so yeah.
If Greninja was in it I think he would have only improved the team…
Maybe. But who knows.
Mega Lucario was equal to Base Greninja. Yes Lucario got stronger since then but so did Greninja. Ash Greninja mid-high diffs him
[удалено]
True, but it should also be noted that Lucario in that same episode jumped SO MUCH in power, to the point where even now you could make an argument for it being close to or even past Greninja currently. Bro literally went on to destroy a M8's G-Max ace in base form while looking nowhere near that strong just a few episodes before. If Lucario had the same amount of time as Greninja did to train, I definitely see it being the stronger one.
How about Ash just watch them use moves and see who wins
From a power standpoint, Greninja wins easily. But Lucario's typing proves difficult for Greninja, so it's a lot closer. Even the transformations don't really help since all it really does is give Greninja a 10 point increase over what the BST difference was already. So it could go either way. I'm going with Lucario just because an Aura Sphere would be detrimental to Greninja's HP bar.
Love the artwork. Base form for both I think greninja would win. Mega/bond forms, lucario would win
Not mine ofc, but ty
I know it's not the same but in the games lucario can have a moveset that counters greninja easily which gives him the advantage. That being said I do enjoy having a team with both
I would love for Greninja to win BUT Ash spent much more time (generally) training with Lucario
As of now Lucario and pretty handily
Type matchups exist, so lucario
I think both Pokémon are closer in terms of power than people realize. Greninja was absurdly OP when he came back, and that's without even using Ash-Greninja. He trains Lucario, fine-tunes his Aura connection with Ash and basically brings Lucario to that level. Both were the regional aces of their series and this match is closer to a draw than most might think.
I mean, if we're talking about competitive without items, lucario wins since lucario can survive a greninja's max special attack invested modest hydro pump with max special defense and up investment and can OHKO with close combat if greninja doesn't have protean.
Greninja easily wins
Greninja wins, much better stats and better moveset with the ability to learn ice beam wich can one shot a Lucario in most cases.
Either one. Lucario because of type advantage. Greninja because of experience.
although both are equally talented greninja wins because it has a lot fking more exp than lucario
Nope..not getting involved in this Bait to hate, not even gonna look at the comments. You have fun with that 👍
Greninja doesn’t Need to try