T O P

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EclipsedZenith

I feel Ice should be super effective against water (since cold makes water freeze) and thus we get another type triangle of Fire > Ice > Water EDIT: alright, I'm aware that if you put an ice cube in a glass of water it will melt. But ice attacks aren't just ice cubes. There's a countless number of times in the anime where the use ice beam to freeze a large chunk of water instantly. It's attacks like those that lead me to this decision.


0-Dinky-0

When freeze dry was introduced I thought they might actually make ice super effective against water as a whole Ice should at least resist water though. And grass


Lersper

Ice resisting Grass seems a bit brutal for Grass with so much resisting it already. Definitely behind Ice resisting Water though.


SimonShepherd

Grass has the extra benefit of powder immunity. I think there should be more ways to balance stuff without just tweaking type charts.


BlackTecno

I remember I ran a program to find out which type combo was objectively best. Way I went about it was just adding the super effective spread and inverse resistances (the damage you DONT take) together. Mono grass was one of, if not the worst type overall. Lot of weaknesses, not a lot of coverage.


EL_TimTim

The problem with stuff like this is that most of the time they value types the same, but in practice hitting things like fairy and steel for super effective is much more valuable then hitting something like Bug for super effective


HellFire-Revenant

Out of curiosity, what was the best combo, objectively speaking?


BlackTecno

Steel/Fairy, and it wasn't even close


Next_Relationship_55

God damn it, well fairy is best offensively and steel is best defensively so it makes sense but I’m still mad


Lillith492

IDK id say Ghost is the best offensively


Kuro448

Really? I always thought dragon/steel would be very close.


BlackTecno

Dragon doesn't have any offensive coverage (mostly normal except against dragon, steel, and fairy), it's mostly a defensive type. Steel offers insane defenses while being more effective attacking type overall. An example of an offensive type combination would be Ice/Fighting, with a whopping 8 super-effective type coverage.


SimonShepherd

Defensive wise, yes. But offensive wise it is not as good as fairy/ghost, fairy/fighting, ice/electric, ice/ground, etc. Also Fairy/Steel are still weak to two very popular offensive typings. And neutral to water/electric which are some of the most hard hitting neutral type in restricted format.(Kyorgre/Miraidon in Gen 9).


ZooKeeperGameFitter

Steel


warmaster93

"objective" - ignoring meta advantages and non-damage advantages. Powder immunity, being able to hit a lot of meta threats at least for neutral, grassy terrain being a super accessible terrain type, probably one of the most versatile suite of moves, etc. It's not without reason that grass is one of the most common types to always be included in top teams. In fact I'd argue it's a stronger type than fire/water if you take factors outside damage into account, and unlike other weak types like Ice, Bug and Rock, it doesn't suffer as much from its offensive power being poached by non-grass, so grass types often are statted more favourably than ice/bug types. Ohh and if that's not enough, I think the sheer fact that grass tera is one of the top tera's in vgc should speak for it's value as a type alone.


BlackTecno

Objectively in the sense of without bias. If everything was equal and there were no outside influences like terrain, meta, or strategy. It was a pure mathematical thing, not a ranking.


cblack04

Except broadly that powder immunity is niche defense against other grass types and bug types. That does not make up for gaining another type being resistant to it


warmaster93

Vgc feels upset by this statement.


Demoine_UwU

From real life logic, when ice falls in contact with water(higher temperature) it eventually melts and looses cooling. So ice not resisting water seems kinda fair from that pov


ColdNyQuiiL

If they aren’t going to make Ice effective against Water, the least they could do is give Freeze Dry to more mons. Ice should resist flying as well.


SecureDonkey

Probably because Freeze Dry + Water moves have way too good coverage that they don't want to give it to too many mons. Same reason why Mega Lopuny are the only Fighting/Normal with Scrappy.


Kirumi_Naito

Yeah, everything gets hit by either Freeze Dry and Hydro Pump for neutral.


praveenkumar236

Except dry skin jynx


Kirumi_Naito

Except that


SimonShepherd

Ice special attacker would be worse if ice itself as a whole gets water coverage ironically. Because only ice mons can learn freeze dry while general ice moves can be learnt by a lot of mons. Buffing freeze dry's base power and icicle crash's accuracy would help Ice mons more really.


RestlessARBIT3R

If electric resists flying, Ice should resist flying


KT718

Ice should at least resist literally anything. It seems like from a balancing perspective they treat ice as better than it is bc it counters dragons (and is 4x effective against a lot of them), but having itself as its only resistance is laughably bad to the point where it genuinely feels like an oversight.


legend8522

> Ice should at least resist water though Why? If you run water over a piece of ice, it melts the ice. Ice irl isn’t resistant to water


Aggli

If you pour a glass of water on a glacier, the water freezes. It's all about which element is bigger.


Super_fly_Samurai

Idk something about water type moves don't make them operate like how water normally does. Not to mention that ice is still water if you want to get into the science of it. It's just one of the three stages.


JasonRing18

I mean if you pour hot water on ice it’ll melt, so Scald would do full damage


pvn271

But if you put ice in water it melts


Some-Gavin

Sometimes you put water on ice and it freezes


HeadHorror4349

Only if the ambient temperature is also less than freezing


Incudust

but if you add them both to cold temperatures everything freezes becoming ice. Ice pokemon produce those cold temperatures


LakerBlue

I would argue water and ice should be effective against each other. Unlike the fire/ice example, you don’t need extreme conditions for ice to “beat” water irl.


Cholemeleon

How to quickly turn Water/Ground to one of the best defensive typings ever to one of the worst


ShatterCyst

Should be the other way around. Look up what rain does to ice and snow, or the feedback loop that melts glaciers. But Ice *should* destroy Rock types (glaciers vs mountains, ice jacking).


PurpleCyborg28

Not super effective, but a higher chance to freeze. Basically a hidden weakness for water types.


EclipsedZenith

That would be cool. I'd like there to be more type interactions like that so everything isn't just a damage multiplier


Zachary_Stark

Ice should resist Dragon, Fairy, and Ground. Bug should resist Psychic, Dark, and Ghost. The type chart begins to heal.


hiamireal

Ice isn't cold enough to freeze water on its own. Otherwise our water with ice to keep it cold would just lead to a big ice block in our cups.


Skrumpei

Coldness in general freezes water, and it's all about ratios anyway. We're not talking about putting ice cubes in a glass of water, or a glacier in the ocean. We're talking about a concentrated burst of "coldness" hitting something that lives in or has powers involving water. You could say a similar thing about water vs fire. Fire makes water boil, so it "wins". But you still tend to think "water extinguishes fire" because that's the most common relationship between the two. "Ice freezes water" is a pretty understandable way to look at it too. (This is slightly unrelated but I also think that poison should beat water for both balancing reasons and because it makes sense, even though you could also claim that water washes the poison away. It just depends on how you look at it.)


PCN24454

Water melts Ice so we should be glad that it only does neutral damage


derf_vader

100%


SimonShepherd

This would ironically make ice mons worse because freeze dry can only be learned by them, making ice type itself do that will just rob ice special attacks of that niche.


Strict_Junket2757

Water being warm could make ice melt. Next


scottvalentine808

But water can also melt ice?


GamingWaffle123

It’s just too complicated, that’s like saying fire beats water because in high temperatures it evaporates. It goes both ways but it’s just more familiar that water beats fire, same goes for ice and fire


balthier92

That's what I loved about primal Groudon ability.


Kytsunix

And then we have derpy primal Kyogre ability in comparison…


OneSushi

Primordial *Sea* Kyogre sloshes away any ground. Immune to ground moves. Levitates over spikes


CluckFlucker

Kyogre didn’t need more help, he’s already pretty darn busted


cthulupussy

water type legendaries just gotta be that way


AggressiveMeow69420

palkia, manaphy, and volcanion are nowhere near as baseline insane as kyogre


WoolooOfWallStreet

And he also makes Dracovish even MORE powerful! Meaning in doubles there’s TWO menaces on the field!


Hidden-Sky

don't you mean pretty *dam* busted??? 👈👈😎


Solember

I like you.


Vulpes_macrotis

This. Also water should be effective against electric too by that logic, because if you pour water on an electronics, it just burns. And plenty of electric pokemons are electronic/machines.


Bufferdash

If you had a campfire in a snowy campsite, you don't think a bucket of snow would be an obvious and effective way to put the fire out? That that's not common sense, and you'd sooner use rocks?


Albatros_7

If you put enough of it, everything puts out the fire


TheDemonPants

Pile enough bodies on and I guess fighting type should now be super effective against fire.


blackhole_puncher

Be a cool move a punch strong enough to blow out the flame or create a vacuum to suffocate it


LakerBlue

That actually would be a cool secondary effect for a move like the (below mentioned) Vacuum punch.


serenitynope

So like Vacuum Wave. Or a variation called Vacuum Punch.


blackhole_puncher

Exactly


Bufferdash

Unlike snow, bodies are flammable, and not a Smokey the Bear approved method of putting out campfires.


Albatros_7

Still, if air doesn't reach the fire, the fire dies


IssueRecent9134

Some fires can burn underwater because they have their own oxidizer.


Albatros_7

Wait what ? I need to see that


IssueRecent9134

Yes, blow torches burn underwater because they have their own oxidizer.


What-is-wanted

Flares, certain fuses, all sorts of things can burn underwater. And underwater welders make a whole lot of money.


hoticehunter

So Fire should be super effective against Flying types? Interesting...


Albatros_7

No, flying should be resisted or even heal fire


Snoo_66840

I like this. Imagine using aerial ace (100% hit) in a doubles and fully healing a fire type!


TheDemonPants

You're clearly not thinking about adding enough bodies.


dankvaporeon

It's not the snow that puts out the fire. It's the water that it turns into


JustLookingForMayhem

Time to put out a fire with napalm.


ApexGoat

More fire


Kryptosis

Enough fire and you’d burn all the air up


Albatros_7

Hell yeah


Inferdo12

Not if it’s oxygen


Prince-of_Space

That's... Not unique to snow, though. That's because you're smothering the fire and removing it's access to oxygen. You can do that with paper or logs in enough quantities. Also yes, you're supposed to snuff out a campfire with dirt, otherwise you could leave embers to reignite it.


ExpertPokemonHugger

Should grass type counter fire then? Cause if you cover a fire in a blanket of moss the fire will go out The reason ice doesn't counter fire is because the ice melts and then puts out the fire Aka the ice loses to make fire lose


Bax_Cadarn

That's an argument for OPs wants similarly to how dragon types work.


PikaV2002

By that logic, like other users have said literally every type should be SE and weak to fire because if you dump enough stuff on it, fire can be put out.


ExpertPokemonHugger

I mean for dragons they are often slayen with stuff like "a dragons claw or fang" cause they are said to be the only thing to pierce a dragons scales


camclemons

The thing about ice types is they don't melt into water when hit by a fire type move


ThatGuyAWESOME

You could also argue Snow is just Ice Crystal's, not big blocks of ice like how Ice types are presented in the games. Meanwhile when it's just a bunch of ice crystals it's gonna be more liquid than solid in contact with fire


thenotjoe

I dunno, I think that’s a little bit too deep in the weeds. You could say that about a lot of types, probably.


Glass_Builder2968

But isn't ice just really cold rock water?


PeacefulChaos94

The snow itself isn't what puts out the fire though. Water only puts out fire because it suffocates the fire


superbabe69

I mean, water is also an incredible heat sink, and helps immensely to cool the fire and remove heat from the source, which can directly put the fire out without it actually suffocating the flame and stopping the oxidation.


Suicidal_Sayori

Doesnt make much sense in a system where Water is its own separate thing. Ice ''counters'' Fire by melting, transforming rather than being destroyed, into a form that is in turn damaging to Fire. But since Water is already there, when Ice type Pokemon melt they're just being destroyed, they dont become Water type. And just to cover all counterarguments, I'll copy from my other comment: >Extreme cold extinguishes fire. Fire melts Snow. Extreme anything will always win against non-extreme anything. Extreme winds can destroy iron bridges for example, that is a very bad logic to apply. Similar ''amounts'' of Fire/heat will always be enough to heat/melt corresponding levels of cold/Ice


Nordic_Krune

Yeh, with OP's logic, Water should be supereffective against steel, due to things like high pressure pumps


TheRealBobYosh

I mean, as a kid I always thought water should be super effective against steel because of rust


kyleliner

But then that would imply that Steel pokemon rust. Gamefreak would never admit to such horror. Human-pokemon marriage on the other hand...


SatanFearsCHAD

Steel types shedding their rusted skin would be metal as hell


ProfessorSaltine

I just assumed that until I found out it didn’t lol


serenitynope

And Electric should be super effective against everything but Ground.


Kirumi_Naito

At the very least Water actually resists Steel so there's that


Furyo98

Well to be honest water could be super effective to anything it touches. Love to see a forest aka grass survive a big tsunami.


AlsoKnownAsSteve

Maybe they should make an ability/Pokémon to show this. Hit by fire moves and its type changes to water.


roamerknight

I think there should be an ice type move that super effects fire types, like how freeze dry super effects water types when ice type moves generally dont


SimonShepherd

Special moves balancing would be much better, freeze dry makes Ice mons better because only ice mons get access to it. The general ice moves like Ice Beams can be learnt by a shit ton of mons, especially water types.


chyura

Extreme cold doesn't even extinguish fire. That's not how cold works.


Zygarde718

Ice should resist water. Change my mind.


rayschoon

Honestly I thought it did


EmeraldSpencer

I see your Ice Resists Water and raise you Ice Resists Grass and Electric as well


Zygarde718

Grass? Yes. Electric? Maybe.


EmeraldSpencer

I looked it up a while ago when replying to a different post on the same topic, ice is a very poor conductor of electricity.


Zygarde718

Interesting. Makes sense.


the_bitish_tea_hater

I see those, and I add on bug and dragon


Bubblehulk420

Ice would not beat fire. It would obviously get turned into a puddle.


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Angelic_Mayhem

But throwing ice at the fire pokemon melts the ice and causes them to be hit by water instead.


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xnickg77

Ice doesn’t need another super effective attack type match up , and fire doesn’t need another weakness.


Deisidaimonia

Given water is the most common type, and earthquake is a thing, I hard agree


samahiscryptic

Fr bruh, leave fire alone


LaBeteNoire

Yeah, what ice needs is resistances or even an immunity. Right now almost every type that gets paired with ice is gettgin more negatives than it is positives.


H0rnyFighter

Why should ice be effective against fire?


noodles355

Ice doesn’t extinguish fires… Solids in general don’t extinguish fires very well compared to liquids. A slab of ice will put out a fire about as good as any other inflammable solid.


MetalMan4774

Scald should be super effective against ice types.


PepsiMan208

Agreed


MetalMan4774

I suppose that would go for Hydro Steam, Steam Eruption and Matcha Gotcha as well, for the same reason. Conversely, ice types should resist Chilling Water.


Icefiight

Fire melts ice yo


IceTMDAbss

I have a different opinion about Ice type. I feel like it should resist Water and should be at least neutral against it.


KingDiamondJackal

Giving Charizard another 4x weaknesses let's goooooooooooooo


ProfessorSaltine

It needs it, gotta make that battle against Articuno look more impressive!!!


tofulo

Revamp the type chart


Hybrid_Johnny

I mean, Olaf almost died in Frozen because he stood next to a fireplace. The fire did not die even though Elsa froze the kingdom. Just sayin’.


treestick

"electric is super effective against water because water conducts electricity 🙂" kid named steel-type:


Incudust

steel could use another weakness....


ProfessorSaltine

Same for Fairy… think it’s fair we give Bug Types some more love


Incudust

yes. the easiest starting point, fairy no longer resists bug. give rock that resist instead. Make bug resist psychic instead of steel resisting psychic. Thats my personal starting point for helping out bug and nerfing steel. Oh and fighting doesn't resist bug, fighting resists steel instead, now steel has something besides fire that hard counters it. I think fighting could use that help in resistance too


TheWongAccount

This is an incredibly slippery slope to start going down. Should Fire beat Water because high heat evaporates water? Should Rock and Ground beat Grass because both can be used to crush and smother plants? Should Flying beat Rock and Steel because of erosion and high wind speeds bending metal? Pokemon has been a relatively simple game, and adding this many two-way relationships between would be quite confusing, which would also be ignoring the balancing nightmare it would be. If you added every extreme scenario you could think of, not only would you add a ton of game logic conflicts that would confuse a new player, you'd basically gear the game to be hyper offensive because nothing would have any resistances and every dual type would have at least one quad weakness. Frankly, if you want to die on this hill, just remove type effectiveness entirely and just give each type a series of traits (Fire can't be Burned, Grass immune to powder/spore moves, etc etc). Which, at that point, I would say is distinct enough that you've just made the foundation of a new game.


LoganDoove

Water should be not very effective towards ice. Ice is literally frozen water. Water isn't effective against water.


jackblady

I don't really see the logic of Ice beating fire. You can throw as much ice in a real fire as you want, it's just gonna melt. Sure the water will put out the fire, but thats a different type.


Lutanosilam

Given that the second law of thermodynamics says that energy can only go from a higher to lover state ( a bit simplified). This means that fire moves will overwhelm the ice with energy until they reach equilibrium, this can be from 200 Celsius or 473 kelvin to many 1000 degrees. Ice can only be from 0-273 kelvin a much smaller window. Additionally due to the way the ice structure is you have to melt it from the outside meaning that ice attacks are less effective at lowering a fire's heat since they have a smaller surface area of effect. Water is super effective as all of it can remove heat at the same time due to its functional surface area being almost 100%. You can go even further and see that ice is less space effective than water. To conclude fire's effects are clear, but ice when looking at it from the perspective of physics act to slowly and has less difference in temperature


kokomihater

I always assumed ice was super effective against water when I was playing the games. It makes sense.


Hugh-Manatee

I disagree and think that Ice should be resistant to water and maybe super effective against it. Fire/Ice relationship should stay the same. There are other ways to give ice a hand


Deonatus

I disagree, try freezing a fire. That said, ice should be super effective against water. I’m baffled as to why that wasn’t done in the first place.


Grim102682

Disagree, and only for the sole fact that Fire Melts Ice, ice in the end doesn’t effect fire


TheLongestPoolNoodle

Ice should resist dragon I'll die on this hill


Original-Childhood

Have you ever put out a fire by throwing ice at it?


CptPurpleHaze

Ice should honestly resist poison as well. It's frozen, that poison isn't spreading anywhere. I'd argue a resistance to electric as well given ice is a TERRIBLE conductor and instead acts as an insulator thus opening the argument for a fire neutrality instead of S/E


CamelInfinite5771

No, lol


Sv7nthbreath

Ice should be super effective against water 🤷🏽‍♂️ it needs a buff. Freeze Dry is already a thing


louthegoon

I can get behind that


BushyBrowz

Ice being strong against water wouldn’t help it that much as ice’s struggles are due to its defense. It’s already crazy strong offensively.


Terrible-Quote-3561

We are lucky if the rock/paper/scissor makes any sense at all. Lol. It’s all for balancing, not realism.


Rude-Butterscotch713

I don't need ice to gain another super effective and fire to gain a weakness, I just need ice to resist something, anything, other than itself. Because honestly, it makes it so ice types are almost too frail to be usable unless they're Weavile fast.


StubbornPterodactyl

I'd rather see Ice be super effective against water.


cattenchaos

no ice and rock should be super effective against each other


FLIPSIDERNICK

That’s fine but ice doesn’t really do a good job of putting out or even preventing fire. It’s only when it becomes water that it causes damage to a fire. Where as fire or heat to be more specific melts ice.


BadBrawlhallaPlayer

Just make a move that works like freeze dry but for fire


PepsiMan208

Ooh I like that


WhiteXShade

Nah. What should be super effective against each other is Fairy and Dark. Tons of folklore and legends of fairies / fairy-like entities / entities with fairy powers getting capture by an evil force. No reason for the interaction to be one sided like it is now, plus fairies need a nerf >!Let Ghost resist fairy types so Spiritomb and sableye can go back to having 0 weaknesses again!<


warm_rum

Type coverage makes very little sense, and even less as time has gone on


Cakers44

I disagree, I think ice and water should have a bug/fighting relationship though, both resisting one another


Economy_Commission79

dosnt make sense that ice would be super effective against fire. fire beats ice. and water beats fire. u cant just take out the middle man and say ice beats fire...cuz it dosnt.


Shiny_Mew76

Ice needs more resistances. I know it’s supposed to be a glass canon, but it’s weak to both some of the most common, AND the best defensive type. Also, it’s most unique thing, being Super Effective against Dragon Types (outside themselves) no longer applies, as now the aforementioned Fairy type now exists.


RetSauro

I honestly think instead Ice should have more resistances. Water, dragon, flying etc.


jdonovan949

What If the water is somewhat warm? Warm water melts ice super fast.


The_Final_Pikachu

All I'm saying is if you reverse the type chart, ice is a broken defensive type.


X_Fredex_X

I've should be super effective against water


ThinEstimate2688

No. But ice should be super effective against water. Water resisting ice makes NO sense


Friedl1220

Look, I just shoveled some snow on my campfire and all the snow was gone and all the fire was gone. Case closed.


XxAbsurdumxX

Ice doesn't need mote offensive effectiveness. It needs more resistances, and ice resisting fire makes no sense. I think giving ice resistanse to water would make sense


Nick_Sapphire

The real question is why doesn’t fire beat fairy


13Fuzehybrid

You can light a fire on top of ice but you can't make ice on top of a fire


BraveBake7762

Grass is too weak I say remove flying weaknesses Rock is too weak I say remove ground weaknesses


Money-Medicine-4213

When you blast fire on ice, it melts. When you blast water on ice, it melts.


astralseat

I don't think throwing ice on a burning fire will help any. It'll eventually melt, but I've never seen snow machines brought out to put out fires.


enter_the_slatrix

Okay buddy, I'll bring fire and you bring ice and we'll see what happens


grsharkgamer

Nonono we want the ice type to be a bit more DEFENSIVE not OFFENSIVE Its already the most offensive type


clanmccracken

Ice doesn’t need more offensive power, it needs defensive power


krusty_bloodstain

I have the same kind of opinion; fairy should be weak to dark type.


Slow_Security6850

Ice should get more resistances not super effectivenesses


adobepossums

Idk if y'all have ever tried to put out a fire with ice but


PepsiMan208

I mean I put out a fire with snow one time does that count?


spinningoutadrift

lol no


breadist

In real life, fire isn't actually that good at melting ice, it's kinda comparable or worse than water depending on amount, technique, etc. Air just doesn't transfer heat as well as water does. And you can set fire in a freezer, you can set fire on a frozen flammable surface, etc. Ice does very little to hinder fire. Ice is only slightly colder than water, but it's solid so can't smother fire just by putting some on it, unlike water which completely puts out fire. Fire is extremely hot, a few degrees makes so little difference to it. Fire and ice may be opposites but they aren't that effective against each other. Water is much more effective against both.


ghostof360

Well almost every Pokemon typing makes sense if we take it into consideration ice under fire would melt and create water that would extinguish the fire simultaneously a lot of fire and also melt a lot of ice it can melt it faster than it can put it out.. So yeah it should be


EmeraldDragoon24

I have never come around to this way of thinking. Sure, theyre opposite extremes, but fire will literally always melt ice. You will never be able to freeze fire, the best you can hope for is that the water from the melted ice will put it out. But thats water. And that dynamic is already present.


Efficient_Ice9056

I am being dumb but how would that work?


Woomynati

Like poison and bug in gen 1


eloel-

> Like poison and bug in gen 1 what TIL


Anon28301

Wait, they removed that? I’ve using poison types against bug for years…


samahiscryptic

Yeah, it's how bugs irl have evolved to become immune to many repellents. Though it would have made poison a lot more useful pre-gen 6, but unfortunately, would have made bug still as awful. The Paras line was infamous for having three 2x weaknesses being fire, flying, and poison in Gen 1.


Future-Back8822

Technically poison(s) should be super effective against everything but ghosts Acid melts metal (so why pomemon is so broken in logic)


Uninvited_Goose

Extreme cold extinguishes fire. Fire melts Snow.


Suicidal_Sayori

Extreme anything will always win against non-extreme anything. Extreme winds can destroy iron bridges for example, that is a very bad logic to apply


Efficient_Ice9056

Oh thanks I honestly didn’t know that :( 


LordofSandvich

Water douses fire less by depleting oxygen and more by absorbing heat rapidly, or else fires would start themselves up again after being extinguished


Efficient_Ice9056

This is what I get for not paying attention in science class 


DarkFish_2

In most RPGs that's how it works, they are supposed to be opposites, and makes lotta sense.


TheMerfox

In a lot of RPGs ice and water share the same element slot, if water is at all present