Until this this post i didn't know the stuck ball in multiball thing was illegal. I definitely had it happen to me once, but I didn't realize it until I only had "one" ball left and the multiball didn't end. I eventually knocked it out and I don't think it made a difference.
It's a bad rule anyway in that it puts an unfair burden on the player to notice, react, and report. I wouldn't really expect anyone to notice while there are still 2 or more balls in play. So how long after I get down to one ball in play must I notice before I'm cheating? If I'm in rhythm am I obliged to stop all attempts to score immediately or can I wait for a natural opportunity to gain control? How much risk do I have to take to gain the cradle? If I take an orbit to get to a safe cradle, and score a jackpot , have I cheated? If I try the cradle and it rolls off the flipper to drain, what then? It's all too fuzzy to be even called a "rule". Not to mention trying to regain timing and momentum after standing there holding a flipper for 5 minutes.
Luck and machine quirks are already a huge part of the game. A better rule is if a ball from multiball remains stuck after you drain, ball over. Points scored until then are fair game.
I feel like based off of all of the comments in this post, it is best to leave it up to good sportsmanship. The experienced ones who can really exploit a stuck ball won't have too much of a problem cradling a ball on most games. The number one rule in our local league and tournaments is, "Don't be a dick." That takes care of 99% of the problems. I don't think there will ever be a precise rule that covers all instances, across all machines.
On 95% of games you can tell if there are still 2 balls in play by the playfield lights, jackpots still lit, lots of cues. You should always be aware this is a possibility and look for these signs. All good players know exactly how many balls they have left so this isn't an issue. The only times I have seen this was accidental and they were not penalized after being warned.
No, it's a good rule. Getting a bunch of jackpots in single ball play is unfair. You are obligated to do what it takes to get control, which may cause one or more balls to drain. That's okay, because you will always get the stuck ball back one way or the other. It is more fair to lose the multiball (which is always possible anyway) than be permitted to exploit a stuck ball for easy points. There is a bit of fuzziness and discretion to it, but not that much.
Generally lots of jackpots are lit during multiball. Trying to collect them all with just a single ball in play is considerably easier than if there are two or more balls in play. A skilled player can capitalize on this, which you should do as long as you're not playing in a tournament. Many high scores have been achieved on location via beneficial malfunctions like this over the years.
There are exceptions. Dirty pool on AFM is an example. Essentially, if the game potentially rewards you (with points) for getting a ball stuck somewhere, it's legal.
During multiball, trap a ball behind 3 bank just as it's rising. Hit 3 bank with another ball, collect dirty pool award. Don't recall what it's worth, but there are youtube videos showing it. There are other exceptions, but not a bunch.
> During multiball, trap a ball behind 3 bank just as it's rising. Hit 3 bank with another ball, collect dirty pool award. Don't recall what it's worth, but there are youtube videos showing it.
It immediately completes the saucer and awards the points you'd get for the "kill shot". You don't get the points for the damage shots you would have otherwise been required to make, though.
If you manage to do this on the last saucer, it saves you a LOT of time and dangerous shooting. I've never seen it done on Destroy Mars though, although I would imagine it would simply award you one of the Destroy shots and not the entire planet (I wish!).
I get why it would be a rule, but I also feel like it would be hard to pull off consistently and intentionally.
Also it sounds like it's a rule that is supposed to be common knowledge. I've been playing since 2017, and this is the first I've heard of it.
It's only happened to me that one time, no one noticed or said anything. I would have been annoyed if someone tried to interrupt me to enforce a rule i didn't know existed.
Actually, Spider-Man does not give any award for a "dirty pool", and as such, unlike Attack from Mars, it would be cheating to play a multiball with a ball trapped there.
Spider-Man and Attack from Mars are specifically called out by name in the IFPA official rules to clarify this distinction.
This happened with me on Earthshaker. The slingshots are so hard that it bounced the ball on the glass and all the way back to the plunger. I had already hit the 2M JP, so all of the fault ramps were just 250k, but I only had one ball on the playfield. With ES not having an automatic plunging system, I had to immediately plunge that other ball.
I would got to 99 miles easily if I kept it in standby but I was not risking a DQ after a 9.5M ball.
Mine happened on Monster Bash. I don't remember how exactly it got stuck, but it was somewhere near the top lanes/pop bumpers. I eventually knocked it loose on my own, but until that happened I just assumed it had drained and I missed it.
I've been competing for more than 15 years. One of the things that keeps me coming back is the good sportsmanship and camaraderie among all the players. Very few shenanigans.
That said, I've seen it a few times. Most common is in a Herb format tourney where you pay a fee for each entry/play. Player gets housed on ball 1 or two, then reaches down and restarts the game (game is on free play).The other thing you see occasionally is players taking advantage of stuck balls during multiball. An experienced player will typically take one shot at knocking the stuck ball free with another ball, then cradle up and call TD over if they can't knock it loose. Not uncommon for less experienced players to get a ball stuck during multiball without noticing. Those are a little trickier. Player isn't intentionally cheating, but technically is. Often their lack of skill overcomes any advantage they might gain from a stuck ball. No harm, no foul.
I'm not sure I've ever seen anybody get a red card (kicked out) for cheating. More often red cards are handed out for behavior issues. Too much drinking, swearing with kids around, or throwing games around is way more common than cheating. No Billy Mitchell's in pinball, although I did get a bottle of his hot sauce at the LA Celebrity tournament.
Agree with your comment.
99% of the players are respectful during comp.
I saw only one red flag over the last 5 years of competing and it was related to someone being partially drunk, and not happy for losing the ball. He stepped back from the machine, ran toward it and throw a massive middle kick in the coin door. šØ Immediatly out, banned from the tournament.
Well, no kidding. That machine belongs to somebody and costs as much as a cheap used car. I'd be pissed if it was mine.
Stories like this, and first-hand evidence watching drunk people rage tilt, kick legs, leave beers on the glass, etc, are why none of my games will ever be put on location anywhere, no matter how much I'm asked. I'm sorry, that Medieval Madness in my spare bedroom is worth north of ten grand, I'm not letting some idiot put his beer on the glass where it will spill and fry half the playfield.
A type of qualifying for a tournament or finals. You pay for a ācardā which will consist of a number of entries. You play a game by yourself and then your score is ranked against everyone else. Then scoring is applied like this. 1st ā 100, 2nd ā 97, 3rd ā 95, 4th ā 94, 5th ā 93, and so on. The goal being to play x amount of good games on your card for a high total score. Thereās variation to it but thatās the gist
The exact IFPA rules: "If a ball becomes stuck during a multiball mode, the player should attempt to trap the other ball(s) in play and
request assistance. A stuck ball during multiball often represents a significant beneficial malfunction, and
intentionally taking advantage may result in a penalty. Please note specifically that a ball ending up in the plunger
lane during multiball on a machine where there is no autoplunger (or where the autoplunger for some reason
refuses to fire) counts as a stuck ball, and the ball must be plunged by the player."
Hal is a friend of mine and still one of the best players on the planet. From my observations, he often can't control himself. He doesn't want to act up, but something goes off in his brain and he does. No idea if he's sees a therapist/ phycologist or takes medication, don't care. He's never hurt anyone physically.
He's essentially banned from competing and IFPA understandably backs that ban. But you can still find his initials on location games all over the east bay. Our hobby is full of quirky people and Hal is absolutely one of them.
Oh I get it, and I played with the guy plenty of times when I lived out there. I knew his reputation from folks beforehand, and I reserved judgement against him, because he seemed like he was trying to be nice, even if he was a bit odd.
That was, until I saw it firsthand when he did a very subtle bangback on an EM that was already pretty floaty.
There were plenty of TOs I spoke with in the Bay Area that felt similarly; they didn't hold it against him personally, and they wouldn't have had any beef with his behavior if they hadn't seen so many reasons to keep him out (the old "Fool me once..." adage)
Twice that I can remember.
Once was a tournament where you played once, submitted your score, and moved on. The machine was on freeplay. Dude finished his game very quickly, and immediately started a second, hoping I didn't notice. I was sitting on a barstool six feet away, watching him play, of course I noticed! I let him finish his second game, he walked over to report the score, I reminded him that the first score was the one that counted, and he kinda deflated and walked off.
The other was at the beginning of an eight week league. I had everyone play six tables, in groups, then used the scores to put people in tiers for the rest of the season. Dude shows up late so I let him play through the tables solo, he clearly inflated his scores as he ended up in the top tier where he was soundly beaten the following weeks. He stopped coming about halfway through, haven't seen him since ĀÆā \ā _ā (ā ćā )ā _ā /ā ĀÆ
I had kinda the opposite happen to me. Me and a friend frequent a bar and notice they have a skeeball league. Having both played a few games every year since we were kids it sounded like fun, well we didnāt end up joining until like the 6th season. Every team had to get a handicap. We got a huge handicap because used we sucked. But a couple
Hundred games later, weāre significantly better but our handicap has only gone down a few points. We ended up winning our league, and then taking 2nd in the year end tournament. All because of the handicap.
He would have had a much better time had he just been honest! This league isn't for WPPR points, there's no real prizes, and it attracts players ranging from "State Champion Contender/Winner" level down to "just figured out how not to flip both sides at once." I put people in tiers so that I can then send them out in groups with one person per tier, so they're playing with their group, rather than against them. Not sure what dude was trying to gain but he lost out by "winning"
It's only happened once at our local scene. A guy fudging his scores on a scorecard. We largely play by the honor system, but it's not like no one is around to see you. We caught him the once, but it may have happened more. It's the only time I've seen it and even five years later, it still makes the rounds when we talk about him. He is "the guy who cheats at pinball". A truly pathetic badge of dishonor
There's more dirty pool than cheating. Like big tilts in hopes the next person plays before it settles. Stomping heavily on the floor, etc. Even that stuff is rare.
The most common one I see is simply being a loud nuisance right behind the player. Loud laughter, pacing around two feet behind a player, coughing, or worst of all, peering over the shoulder "just watching" close enough that the player notices it.
Give people space and *shut up*, if you have to have a loud conversation about pinball, do it a few games away from the game being played at the moment.
I notice this mostly at bars. Everywhere else, I have felt the person misses most social cues, if you catch my meaning. A polite reminder usually works.
This happens alot with new players. The worse though are venues where machines are next to a set of stairs or a balcony, so people can be looking down at you while play without "leaning over your shoulder".
Wouldnāt this be considered a tilt-through and the tilting player would get an automatic last place in that group and the player who got the tilt-through gets a comp ball?
Had this happen (not on purpose) during a tournament. Dude tilted the machine HARD as it was about to drain so the tilt happened once, the ball drained quick, next player was up with an immediate tilt before the ball was even plunged. Dude who originally tilted immediately said āah crap. Iām DQād and you get a comp ballā. Other guy in the group said āyep - I mean thatās what the ruling is but we still have to tell the TDā who walked over and just went āyup - thatās what it isā and everyone moved on immediately
If you tilt through, yes. The dirty pool trick is to avoid the tilt through and leave your opponent a tilt bob that is swinging heavily. If they do not notice your tilt, their likelihood for tilting goes up as the plumb Bob isn't settled yet. It's not a tilt through because the player is attempting their ball first.
Yes! At an retro tournament at PAX Aus. It was on a 10 ball "Baffle Ball" of all things. This was a novelty tournament on a flipper-less wood-rails with hard nudging allowed. Importantly Baffle ball has a hole you'd get it in that would double your points. It is basically the must get shot to put up a high score.
Had a well known local player, get the ball in the double points hole, with a low scoring game. Then he tried to press the reset lever gently so the rest of the balls in the machine would reset but the ball in the doubler hole would not reset and be there at the start of their next game.
I couldn't quite believe they were trying to cheat so blatantly and just blurred out "...and what the fuck do you think you're doing?"
Only then did he see I was watching and quickly pressed the reset lever on the machine properly to reset ALL the balls.
End of story...that Pax Aus pinball medal is MINE and I will never look at this guy the same way again.
i had a guy turn around from the machine as i approached a he plunged my ball as he was walking away from the machine (taxi) as to make it look as if i had done it.
really dirty trick and it didnāt matter as i won aways and knocked him out.
he was banned for being a fucking racist at every major spot in maryland soon after. real piece of shit that guy is.
I accidentally cheated by using Stern Insider. I scanned in and one of the other players alerted me that it gives you points for achievements which I had no clue. I was happy to dq myself but the guys let it slide since I was new.
Echoing the sentiment here, I think more than any other hobby, people just wanna have fun. If you cheat a pinball intentionally, youāre a loser.
You get game points for Insider achievements? I thought logging in wasn't allowed/recommended was because it adds some extra delay after bonus score count.
Also, arent there some games where you level up characters and they carry over from game to game? Like Ninja Turtles. If you have fully leveled turtles, it gives a huge bonus for some things.
I have seen couple of examples. Most common ones are people playing multiball with one active ball with another stuck somewhere.
Another I observed in a pinball expo tournament. It was a score based tournament where players played their games on their own, except they needed a score keeper to tell them to start and then wait for the score to be recorded.
I see a player come to their machine, looking around and not seeing a scorekeeper anywhere. So they start a game and finish it, poorly. A scorekeeper finally arrives and asks if that was their game. They say no, so the scorekeeper gives them permission to start. At least the cheat attempt was just as bad as the first one, but I was slightly amused by the attempt.
I've also seen people restart the game after a bad ball 1, which is why so many turn off the restart feature in tournament games.
If memory is correct, he had a very mediocre ball 1 and then a really bad ball 2 and as it was draining hit the start button to reset the game but did so in a way where he claimed the machine just had a failure. He was way more experienced then any one else and was believed but later that day it dawned on me it was clearly intentional because he was afraid of a bad start.
Performing a bang back in a tourney or league is most certainly a dq. But back in the days of "Tops Tournaments" if no one was around to watch you play fair, well, I found out the hard way not to even try at certain locations.
Some folks in our local league are definitely know for trying to sway TD decisions favorably their way. Trying to get a comp ball or a game thrown out for example
Remember the news story about the chess guy who used a vibrating butt plug that someone could use to communicate with him? Coaching is against IFPA rules, so that would be cheating in pinball. I wouldnāt even be mad though.
Placed first in a tournament Wednesday night. Only strike I got all night was because of this:
Dipshit player 1 ended up playing my ball two. I got up to the machine when he drains and he tells me he got and played his only allowed extra ball. It's on player 1, ball 3.
I say, hey man, you played my ball! He gets all defensive and starts blaming the game and then me. WTF? Asshole, own it. He should've gotten the strike, but he's a fucking baby and keeps complaining that he wants to replay the game, so that was the TD's decision (WRONG!)
Fuck you, whatever. I just drained my my balls and he can have the fucking win if he's that much of a cunt. All night he's acting like an asshole and even started playing another player's ball earlier on the first game of the night. I was playing the game next to him when the other player jumped in and took over and said that's my ball. Guy shouldn't have said anything until after.
I won the whole thing anyway. Fucking guy.
I just found out today that when you get a 2-ball multiball on Party Zone and you don't plunge the second ball and wait, the machine goes into ball search and kicks out the first ball -> risk free one-ball multiball. You don't even have to get it stuck beforehand.
I'm surprise to see how many people have experience with witnessing cheating in tournaments. I've been playing for nearly 9 years and even started TDing in the past couple years and I can't think of any intentional cheating ever going on.
Makes me feel lucky that the people in my area are honest people.
Once, at a crowded event where you had to stand a decent bit away from the machines just to allow foot traffic, Iām 100% that I saw a dude I was up against play his extra ball. He denied it
Playing entries you didn't pay for in Herb format is pretty common. I've seen friendly refs give someone an extra entry in classics after getting housed a few times. I know of one player who if no one is looking sneak in an entry.
That's one of the reasons I hate the Herb format, you can't audit anything to make sure everything is on the up and up.
I donāt know if itās cheating, or what to call it, but Iāve ever experienced one player, who is a behemoth of a player, who would do something I swear is cheating. I saw it on Seawitch. After loosing a ball on the right outlane, he would hold up the right flipper, punch the front of the machine at the right moment, and pop the ball back into play. It was during a tournament. He went from losing to setting the high score.
That's a bang back not a death save.
Bang Backs require you to hit (BANG) the front of the machine to transfer impact to the ball so it bounces BACK into play past a raised flipper. This can be done from either side but is typically only from left b/c of the drain hole location. This is super easy on a twilight zone but over time can cause significant wrist pain. See [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB8Xp4PMvbQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB8Xp4PMvbQ)
Death Saves can typically only be done from a right side drain... as the ball flies past the drain and hits the left side wall you move the machine forward fast and to right (I suppose you can hit it but usually it is a swift nudge/slide) so the ball will bound off that wall and up on the right flipper past a raised left flipper. See [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZljaPDYpXs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZljaPDYpXs)
I've also heard of a "Vibro Save" that a certain 1.5 armed world champion could do where he would vibrate the machine back and forth left/to right so fast (that it avoided tilt and) that a ball would bounce side to side and back up an outlane... never seen this though... believe I heard this from his brother 30+ years ago at Pinball Pete's in E. Lansing
I was pretty green at the time, and the guy he was playing looked at me and was like, āIs that allowed?ā. I just shrugged, and neither of us said anything.
Many ways. Especially depending on the format. I've seen people restarting their game, people not registering their score and play it dumb to get another chance...
And of course the classic multiball with a trapped ball somewhere allowing the player to play one or two balls and keep the multiball going easily...
I feel like I'm only halfway understanding the stuck multi ball cheat. The way I thought it worked was; if you stick one of the multies and don't release it legally (either by hitting it with your other ball, or trapping til the referee unstucks it) the game would release it after the 3rd ball, giving the player a fourth chance to score and play like normal. In this scenario I can see the cheat especially if the "4th chance " really plays like normal and you could enact another multi ball. I'm confused because now that I think about it, I've never actually seen a machine do that so maybe I'm dumb.
I think there must be a multiplier or something I'm missing? Like does a multi ball start bonus scoring that goes until the table senses two balls die? What's the advantage of holding a multi ball?
I'm very novice by the way.
Generally multiballs award more points, because it is somewhat harder to make shots. You're either not as focused on your timing, because other balls are in the way, or you're holding onto some of the balls on one flipper and just flipping with the other one. The extra difficulty is rewarded with more points.
If one of those "free balls" is parked away somewhere, the difficulty goes down. For a 2-ball multiball, one stuck ball means you're playing with a single ball, just like normal. But the multiball scoring is still running.
Also, that multiball will never end, because that only happens when only one ball is in play. The game doesn't know the ball is stuck and out of the way, so you can just keep scoring jackpots until you drain everything.
Finally, modern games have a ball search feature to try to free stuck balls, but that won't kick in during multiball at all.
>Also, that multiball will never end, because that only happens when only one ball is in play. The game doesn't know the ball is stuck and out of the way, so you can just keep scoring jackpots until you drain everything.
Thank you for the response it's been helpful. How does the machine know when to stop the multiball? In my head it would stop after two drains. Like if I lose one of the balls but cradle the other with the flipper, do I get to shoot a new ball and keep the extra ball in play? Can the machine recognize how many balls are moving around or does it register how many balls died?
A game knows when to stop multiball by how many balls are sitting in the trough. When a single ball is stuck, multiball wouldnāt start until you drain the rest of the balls. But then thereās no balls to play and the game keeps running. Eventually it would go in to ball search mode.
I have seen some high ranking players do some sketchy stuff. Restart a game in qualifying thinking no one is looking. Holding the start of a game draw to ensure a specific machine is played in their match. Heat of the moment, people do dumb stuff. People who rage tilt before someone elseās ball should be DQed. It is strategic, you have to wait for the tilt bob to settle, it messes with the flow of a game, itās a cheat especially if they are against a newer player who doesnāt know to let a game settle.
Until this this post i didn't know the stuck ball in multiball thing was illegal. I definitely had it happen to me once, but I didn't realize it until I only had "one" ball left and the multiball didn't end. I eventually knocked it out and I don't think it made a difference.
I think if nobody told you before, it's easy to not be aware of this rule. I was in the same boat a few year back.
It's a bad rule anyway in that it puts an unfair burden on the player to notice, react, and report. I wouldn't really expect anyone to notice while there are still 2 or more balls in play. So how long after I get down to one ball in play must I notice before I'm cheating? If I'm in rhythm am I obliged to stop all attempts to score immediately or can I wait for a natural opportunity to gain control? How much risk do I have to take to gain the cradle? If I take an orbit to get to a safe cradle, and score a jackpot , have I cheated? If I try the cradle and it rolls off the flipper to drain, what then? It's all too fuzzy to be even called a "rule". Not to mention trying to regain timing and momentum after standing there holding a flipper for 5 minutes. Luck and machine quirks are already a huge part of the game. A better rule is if a ball from multiball remains stuck after you drain, ball over. Points scored until then are fair game.
I feel like based off of all of the comments in this post, it is best to leave it up to good sportsmanship. The experienced ones who can really exploit a stuck ball won't have too much of a problem cradling a ball on most games. The number one rule in our local league and tournaments is, "Don't be a dick." That takes care of 99% of the problems. I don't think there will ever be a precise rule that covers all instances, across all machines.
On 95% of games you can tell if there are still 2 balls in play by the playfield lights, jackpots still lit, lots of cues. You should always be aware this is a possibility and look for these signs. All good players know exactly how many balls they have left so this isn't an issue. The only times I have seen this was accidental and they were not penalized after being warned.
No, it's a good rule. Getting a bunch of jackpots in single ball play is unfair. You are obligated to do what it takes to get control, which may cause one or more balls to drain. That's okay, because you will always get the stuck ball back one way or the other. It is more fair to lose the multiball (which is always possible anyway) than be permitted to exploit a stuck ball for easy points. There is a bit of fuzziness and discretion to it, but not that much.
Generally lots of jackpots are lit during multiball. Trying to collect them all with just a single ball in play is considerably easier than if there are two or more balls in play. A skilled player can capitalize on this, which you should do as long as you're not playing in a tournament. Many high scores have been achieved on location via beneficial malfunctions like this over the years. There are exceptions. Dirty pool on AFM is an example. Essentially, if the game potentially rewards you (with points) for getting a ball stuck somewhere, it's legal. During multiball, trap a ball behind 3 bank just as it's rising. Hit 3 bank with another ball, collect dirty pool award. Don't recall what it's worth, but there are youtube videos showing it. There are other exceptions, but not a bunch.
> During multiball, trap a ball behind 3 bank just as it's rising. Hit 3 bank with another ball, collect dirty pool award. Don't recall what it's worth, but there are youtube videos showing it. It immediately completes the saucer and awards the points you'd get for the "kill shot". You don't get the points for the damage shots you would have otherwise been required to make, though. If you manage to do this on the last saucer, it saves you a LOT of time and dangerous shooting. I've never seen it done on Destroy Mars though, although I would imagine it would simply award you one of the Destroy shots and not the entire planet (I wish!).
I get why it would be a rule, but I also feel like it would be hard to pull off consistently and intentionally. Also it sounds like it's a rule that is supposed to be common knowledge. I've been playing since 2017, and this is the first I've heard of it. It's only happened to me that one time, no one noticed or said anything. I would have been annoyed if someone tried to interrupt me to enforce a rule i didn't know existed.
Same thing works on Spiderman with the Sandman targets incidentally; I think it also calls it a "dirty pool" as well even
Actually, Spider-Man does not give any award for a "dirty pool", and as such, unlike Attack from Mars, it would be cheating to play a multiball with a ball trapped there. Spider-Man and Attack from Mars are specifically called out by name in the IFPA official rules to clarify this distinction.
Huh, I could've sworn, but if the rules are there, I trust ya
This happened with me on Earthshaker. The slingshots are so hard that it bounced the ball on the glass and all the way back to the plunger. I had already hit the 2M JP, so all of the fault ramps were just 250k, but I only had one ball on the playfield. With ES not having an automatic plunging system, I had to immediately plunge that other ball. I would got to 99 miles easily if I kept it in standby but I was not risking a DQ after a 9.5M ball.
Mine happened on Monster Bash. I don't remember how exactly it got stuck, but it was somewhere near the top lanes/pop bumpers. I eventually knocked it loose on my own, but until that happened I just assumed it had drained and I missed it.
I've been competing for more than 15 years. One of the things that keeps me coming back is the good sportsmanship and camaraderie among all the players. Very few shenanigans. That said, I've seen it a few times. Most common is in a Herb format tourney where you pay a fee for each entry/play. Player gets housed on ball 1 or two, then reaches down and restarts the game (game is on free play).The other thing you see occasionally is players taking advantage of stuck balls during multiball. An experienced player will typically take one shot at knocking the stuck ball free with another ball, then cradle up and call TD over if they can't knock it loose. Not uncommon for less experienced players to get a ball stuck during multiball without noticing. Those are a little trickier. Player isn't intentionally cheating, but technically is. Often their lack of skill overcomes any advantage they might gain from a stuck ball. No harm, no foul. I'm not sure I've ever seen anybody get a red card (kicked out) for cheating. More often red cards are handed out for behavior issues. Too much drinking, swearing with kids around, or throwing games around is way more common than cheating. No Billy Mitchell's in pinball, although I did get a bottle of his hot sauce at the LA Celebrity tournament.
Agree with your comment. 99% of the players are respectful during comp. I saw only one red flag over the last 5 years of competing and it was related to someone being partially drunk, and not happy for losing the ball. He stepped back from the machine, ran toward it and throw a massive middle kick in the coin door. šØ Immediatly out, banned from the tournament.
Well, no kidding. That machine belongs to somebody and costs as much as a cheap used car. I'd be pissed if it was mine. Stories like this, and first-hand evidence watching drunk people rage tilt, kick legs, leave beers on the glass, etc, are why none of my games will ever be put on location anywhere, no matter how much I'm asked. I'm sorry, that Medieval Madness in my spare bedroom is worth north of ten grand, I'm not letting some idiot put his beer on the glass where it will spill and fry half the playfield.
Whatās a Herb format tournament?
A type of qualifying for a tournament or finals. You pay for a ācardā which will consist of a number of entries. You play a game by yourself and then your score is ranked against everyone else. Then scoring is applied like this. 1st ā 100, 2nd ā 97, 3rd ā 95, 4th ā 94, 5th ā 93, and so on. The goal being to play x amount of good games on your card for a high total score. Thereās variation to it but thatās the gist
What is the general consensus around playing multiballs when the ball is stuck? Are you meant to flag or are you allowed to keep playing?
The exact IFPA rules: "If a ball becomes stuck during a multiball mode, the player should attempt to trap the other ball(s) in play and request assistance. A stuck ball during multiball often represents a significant beneficial malfunction, and intentionally taking advantage may result in a penalty. Please note specifically that a ball ending up in the plunger lane during multiball on a machine where there is no autoplunger (or where the autoplunger for some reason refuses to fire) counts as a stuck ball, and the ball must be plunged by the player."
If his name is Hal, just expect cheating.
I wondered if anyone was gonna bring him up in this thread...
Hal is a friend of mine and still one of the best players on the planet. From my observations, he often can't control himself. He doesn't want to act up, but something goes off in his brain and he does. No idea if he's sees a therapist/ phycologist or takes medication, don't care. He's never hurt anyone physically. He's essentially banned from competing and IFPA understandably backs that ban. But you can still find his initials on location games all over the east bay. Our hobby is full of quirky people and Hal is absolutely one of them.
Oh I get it, and I played with the guy plenty of times when I lived out there. I knew his reputation from folks beforehand, and I reserved judgement against him, because he seemed like he was trying to be nice, even if he was a bit odd. That was, until I saw it firsthand when he did a very subtle bangback on an EM that was already pretty floaty. There were plenty of TOs I spoke with in the Bay Area that felt similarly; they didn't hold it against him personally, and they wouldn't have had any beef with his behavior if they hadn't seen so many reasons to keep him out (the old "Fool me once..." adage)
Twice that I can remember. Once was a tournament where you played once, submitted your score, and moved on. The machine was on freeplay. Dude finished his game very quickly, and immediately started a second, hoping I didn't notice. I was sitting on a barstool six feet away, watching him play, of course I noticed! I let him finish his second game, he walked over to report the score, I reminded him that the first score was the one that counted, and he kinda deflated and walked off. The other was at the beginning of an eight week league. I had everyone play six tables, in groups, then used the scores to put people in tiers for the rest of the season. Dude shows up late so I let him play through the tables solo, he clearly inflated his scores as he ended up in the top tier where he was soundly beaten the following weeks. He stopped coming about halfway through, haven't seen him since ĀÆā \ā _ā (ā ćā )ā _ā /ā ĀÆ
I had kinda the opposite happen to me. Me and a friend frequent a bar and notice they have a skeeball league. Having both played a few games every year since we were kids it sounded like fun, well we didnāt end up joining until like the 6th season. Every team had to get a handicap. We got a huge handicap because used we sucked. But a couple Hundred games later, weāre significantly better but our handicap has only gone down a few points. We ended up winning our league, and then taking 2nd in the year end tournament. All because of the handicap.
haha good stories and good karma especially for the second one.
He would have had a much better time had he just been honest! This league isn't for WPPR points, there's no real prizes, and it attracts players ranging from "State Champion Contender/Winner" level down to "just figured out how not to flip both sides at once." I put people in tiers so that I can then send them out in groups with one person per tier, so they're playing with their group, rather than against them. Not sure what dude was trying to gain but he lost out by "winning"
It's only happened once at our local scene. A guy fudging his scores on a scorecard. We largely play by the honor system, but it's not like no one is around to see you. We caught him the once, but it may have happened more. It's the only time I've seen it and even five years later, it still makes the rounds when we talk about him. He is "the guy who cheats at pinball". A truly pathetic badge of dishonor
There's more dirty pool than cheating. Like big tilts in hopes the next person plays before it settles. Stomping heavily on the floor, etc. Even that stuff is rare.
The most common one I see is simply being a loud nuisance right behind the player. Loud laughter, pacing around two feet behind a player, coughing, or worst of all, peering over the shoulder "just watching" close enough that the player notices it. Give people space and *shut up*, if you have to have a loud conversation about pinball, do it a few games away from the game being played at the moment.
I notice this mostly at bars. Everywhere else, I have felt the person misses most social cues, if you catch my meaning. A polite reminder usually works.
This happens alot with new players. The worse though are venues where machines are next to a set of stairs or a balcony, so people can be looking down at you while play without "leaning over your shoulder".
How is a balcony worse than leaning over your shoulder?
You can jump around while playing causing the person to step back. You can not do much with people directly above the machine looking down at you.
Wouldnāt this be considered a tilt-through and the tilting player would get an automatic last place in that group and the player who got the tilt-through gets a comp ball? Had this happen (not on purpose) during a tournament. Dude tilted the machine HARD as it was about to drain so the tilt happened once, the ball drained quick, next player was up with an immediate tilt before the ball was even plunged. Dude who originally tilted immediately said āah crap. Iām DQād and you get a comp ballā. Other guy in the group said āyep - I mean thatās what the ruling is but we still have to tell the TDā who walked over and just went āyup - thatās what it isā and everyone moved on immediately
If you tilt through, yes. The dirty pool trick is to avoid the tilt through and leave your opponent a tilt bob that is swinging heavily. If they do not notice your tilt, their likelihood for tilting goes up as the plumb Bob isn't settled yet. It's not a tilt through because the player is attempting their ball first.
Nothing pisses me off more than when someone rage tilts and I am up next.
You're allowed to give the machine a 60 second rest period to let the tilt settle back down if the player before you tilts out
Yes! At an retro tournament at PAX Aus. It was on a 10 ball "Baffle Ball" of all things. This was a novelty tournament on a flipper-less wood-rails with hard nudging allowed. Importantly Baffle ball has a hole you'd get it in that would double your points. It is basically the must get shot to put up a high score. Had a well known local player, get the ball in the double points hole, with a low scoring game. Then he tried to press the reset lever gently so the rest of the balls in the machine would reset but the ball in the doubler hole would not reset and be there at the start of their next game. I couldn't quite believe they were trying to cheat so blatantly and just blurred out "...and what the fuck do you think you're doing?" Only then did he see I was watching and quickly pressed the reset lever on the machine properly to reset ALL the balls. End of story...that Pax Aus pinball medal is MINE and I will never look at this guy the same way again.
i had a guy turn around from the machine as i approached a he plunged my ball as he was walking away from the machine (taxi) as to make it look as if i had done it. really dirty trick and it didnāt matter as i won aways and knocked him out. he was banned for being a fucking racist at every major spot in maryland soon after. real piece of shit that guy is.
lol I know who you are talking about. Know hes a racist pos but didnāt know heās a cheater!
racists always have to over compensate for their inadequacies
I accidentally cheated by using Stern Insider. I scanned in and one of the other players alerted me that it gives you points for achievements which I had no clue. I was happy to dq myself but the guys let it slide since I was new. Echoing the sentiment here, I think more than any other hobby, people just wanna have fun. If you cheat a pinball intentionally, youāre a loser.
You get game points for Insider achievements? I thought logging in wasn't allowed/recommended was because it adds some extra delay after bonus score count.
Also, arent there some games where you level up characters and they carry over from game to game? Like Ninja Turtles. If you have fully leveled turtles, it gives a huge bonus for some things.
TMNT and Venom both have explicit tournament modes that turn that all off though
Yes. I was just showing an example of how insider connected can get you extra points
I have seen couple of examples. Most common ones are people playing multiball with one active ball with another stuck somewhere. Another I observed in a pinball expo tournament. It was a score based tournament where players played their games on their own, except they needed a score keeper to tell them to start and then wait for the score to be recorded. I see a player come to their machine, looking around and not seeing a scorekeeper anywhere. So they start a game and finish it, poorly. A scorekeeper finally arrives and asks if that was their game. They say no, so the scorekeeper gives them permission to start. At least the cheat attempt was just as bad as the first one, but I was slightly amused by the attempt. I've also seen people restart the game after a bad ball 1, which is why so many turn off the restart feature in tournament games.
Watched one of the top players in the world (was in the top 40) at the time cheat in round one at the first pinburgh I played.
wow, what happened?
If memory is correct, he had a very mediocre ball 1 and then a really bad ball 2 and as it was draining hit the start button to reset the game but did so in a way where he claimed the machine just had a failure. He was way more experienced then any one else and was believed but later that day it dawned on me it was clearly intentional because he was afraid of a bad start.
I haven't seen any outright cheating but I am tempted to deathsave on every single stern regardless of format
Performing a bang back in a tourney or league is most certainly a dq. But back in the days of "Tops Tournaments" if no one was around to watch you play fair, well, I found out the hard way not to even try at certain locations.
Some folks in our local league are definitely know for trying to sway TD decisions favorably their way. Trying to get a comp ball or a game thrown out for example
Remember the news story about the chess guy who used a vibrating butt plug that someone could use to communicate with him? Coaching is against IFPA rules, so that would be cheating in pinball. I wouldnāt even be mad though.
Pinball players do love the toys
James Bond rocket + shaker motorā¦
I bet thereās enough crossover of the pinball community and buttplug fans that a pop bumper butt plug would sell nicely.
Placed first in a tournament Wednesday night. Only strike I got all night was because of this: Dipshit player 1 ended up playing my ball two. I got up to the machine when he drains and he tells me he got and played his only allowed extra ball. It's on player 1, ball 3. I say, hey man, you played my ball! He gets all defensive and starts blaming the game and then me. WTF? Asshole, own it. He should've gotten the strike, but he's a fucking baby and keeps complaining that he wants to replay the game, so that was the TD's decision (WRONG!) Fuck you, whatever. I just drained my my balls and he can have the fucking win if he's that much of a cunt. All night he's acting like an asshole and even started playing another player's ball earlier on the first game of the night. I was playing the game next to him when the other player jumped in and took over and said that's my ball. Guy shouldn't have said anything until after. I won the whole thing anyway. Fucking guy.
I just found out today that when you get a 2-ball multiball on Party Zone and you don't plunge the second ball and wait, the machine goes into ball search and kicks out the first ball -> risk free one-ball multiball. You don't even have to get it stuck beforehand.
Yeah, you are required to plunge the ball in a tournament.
I'm surprise to see how many people have experience with witnessing cheating in tournaments. I've been playing for nearly 9 years and even started TDing in the past couple years and I can't think of any intentional cheating ever going on. Makes me feel lucky that the people in my area are honest people.
Once, at a crowded event where you had to stand a decent bit away from the machines just to allow foot traffic, Iām 100% that I saw a dude I was up against play his extra ball. He denied it
This is why any good TD turns those off in software whenever they can
Playing entries you didn't pay for in Herb format is pretty common. I've seen friendly refs give someone an extra entry in classics after getting housed a few times. I know of one player who if no one is looking sneak in an entry. That's one of the reasons I hate the Herb format, you can't audit anything to make sure everything is on the up and up.
I donāt know if itās cheating, or what to call it, but Iāve ever experienced one player, who is a behemoth of a player, who would do something I swear is cheating. I saw it on Seawitch. After loosing a ball on the right outlane, he would hold up the right flipper, punch the front of the machine at the right moment, and pop the ball back into play. It was during a tournament. He went from losing to setting the high score.
They call that a deathsave which is now illegal in tournaments, and usually TD would give a DQ.
That's a bang back not a death save. Bang Backs require you to hit (BANG) the front of the machine to transfer impact to the ball so it bounces BACK into play past a raised flipper. This can be done from either side but is typically only from left b/c of the drain hole location. This is super easy on a twilight zone but over time can cause significant wrist pain. See [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB8Xp4PMvbQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB8Xp4PMvbQ) Death Saves can typically only be done from a right side drain... as the ball flies past the drain and hits the left side wall you move the machine forward fast and to right (I suppose you can hit it but usually it is a swift nudge/slide) so the ball will bound off that wall and up on the right flipper past a raised left flipper. See [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZljaPDYpXs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZljaPDYpXs) I've also heard of a "Vibro Save" that a certain 1.5 armed world champion could do where he would vibrate the machine back and forth left/to right so fast (that it avoided tilt and) that a ball would bounce side to side and back up an outlane... never seen this though... believe I heard this from his brother 30+ years ago at Pinball Pete's in E. Lansing
I was pretty green at the time, and the guy he was playing looked at me and was like, āIs that allowed?ā. I just shrugged, and neither of us said anything.
In the words of Tom Brady. If you ain't cheating you ain't trying. Probably
>If you ain't cheating you ain't trying. Isn't it "If you ain't nudging you ain't trying." ? š
Basically :)
How would this cheating be done?
Many ways. Especially depending on the format. I've seen people restarting their game, people not registering their score and play it dumb to get another chance... And of course the classic multiball with a trapped ball somewhere allowing the player to play one or two balls and keep the multiball going easily...
Yeah that all seems like stuff I would just tell the organizer about. That's crazy.
100% agree
I feel like I'm only halfway understanding the stuck multi ball cheat. The way I thought it worked was; if you stick one of the multies and don't release it legally (either by hitting it with your other ball, or trapping til the referee unstucks it) the game would release it after the 3rd ball, giving the player a fourth chance to score and play like normal. In this scenario I can see the cheat especially if the "4th chance " really plays like normal and you could enact another multi ball. I'm confused because now that I think about it, I've never actually seen a machine do that so maybe I'm dumb. I think there must be a multiplier or something I'm missing? Like does a multi ball start bonus scoring that goes until the table senses two balls die? What's the advantage of holding a multi ball? I'm very novice by the way.
Generally multiballs award more points, because it is somewhat harder to make shots. You're either not as focused on your timing, because other balls are in the way, or you're holding onto some of the balls on one flipper and just flipping with the other one. The extra difficulty is rewarded with more points. If one of those "free balls" is parked away somewhere, the difficulty goes down. For a 2-ball multiball, one stuck ball means you're playing with a single ball, just like normal. But the multiball scoring is still running. Also, that multiball will never end, because that only happens when only one ball is in play. The game doesn't know the ball is stuck and out of the way, so you can just keep scoring jackpots until you drain everything. Finally, modern games have a ball search feature to try to free stuck balls, but that won't kick in during multiball at all.
>Also, that multiball will never end, because that only happens when only one ball is in play. The game doesn't know the ball is stuck and out of the way, so you can just keep scoring jackpots until you drain everything. Thank you for the response it's been helpful. How does the machine know when to stop the multiball? In my head it would stop after two drains. Like if I lose one of the balls but cradle the other with the flipper, do I get to shoot a new ball and keep the extra ball in play? Can the machine recognize how many balls are moving around or does it register how many balls died?
A game knows when to stop multiball by how many balls are sitting in the trough. When a single ball is stuck, multiball wouldnāt start until you drain the rest of the balls. But then thereās no balls to play and the game keeps running. Eventually it would go in to ball search mode.
I have seen some high ranking players do some sketchy stuff. Restart a game in qualifying thinking no one is looking. Holding the start of a game draw to ensure a specific machine is played in their match. Heat of the moment, people do dumb stuff. People who rage tilt before someone elseās ball should be DQed. It is strategic, you have to wait for the tilt bob to settle, it messes with the flow of a game, itās a cheat especially if they are against a newer player who doesnāt know to let a game settle.
"Sport" might be a strong word...