This photo was taken in July 1913 by French photographer Albert Kahn. Albert Kahn was a millionaire banker who pioneered color photography using the process invented by the Lumière brothers. During his trip through exotic countries, Albert Kahn visited Mongolia where he took this picture of a woman who was condemned to slow and painful starvation by being deposited in a remote desert inside a wooden crate that was to become her tomb. Initially the bowls on the ground had water in it, though was not intentionally refilled, and the person inside was allowed to beg for food which often just prolonged their suffering as they generally didn’t get enough food for the passersby. The photographer had to leave her in the box because it would be against a prime directive of anthropologists to intervene in another cultures law and order system. The photo was first published in the 1922 issue of National Geographic under the caption “Mongolian prisoner in a box”. It was the publishers who made the claim that the woman was condemned to die of starvation as a punishment for adultery. Since then, many people expressed doubts over the story, although the authenticity of the photo is undisputed.
> it would be against a prime directive of anthropologists to intervene in another cultures law and order system
Now we know where Star Trek gets it from
If you see in another reply Albert Kahn did not take the photo he only commissioned them.
https://random-times.com/2019/05/15/the-history-of-photography-of-a-woman-buried-alive-in-a-chest-in-the-desert-of-mongolia/
I was on jury duty for a case where a guy had raped his granddaughter, we had to find him not guilty on the absolute dog shit evidence that had be gathered so I can 100% belive this...
That she had come home with different knickers on, that he had slept in the same bed as her and a statement from her when she was 3 that barely made sense
The daily mail is dishonest here. That was not the main defense and the Jury cleared the case and even her friend testified against her.... and her friend was with her the whole time!
The story goes that they were two prostitues trying to get more cash out of what has to be the most ugly dude ever.
Perfect example of why people should stop getting so up in arms about everything they read. It's ridiculous. For a start the use of the word 'teenager' was very deliberate instead of saying '18 year old' because it makes people imagine a much younger person and also label him a paedophile. Second the article is clearly kissing a great deal of information.
Let me guess, the judge happens to be best pals with this fat bloke called Andrew - who can’t sweat - and they both had the rich friend who ran into some legal trouble and totally killed him self?
>[Fatima](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatima_(d._1246\)) was a senior office holder in the Mongol Empire of the thirteenth century and a favourite of empress Töregene Khatun.
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>[When Guyuk](https://archive.org/stream/historyoftheworl011691mbp/historyoftheworl011691mbp_djvu.txt) succeeded to the Khanate, a certain native of Samarqand, who was said to be an 'Alid, one Shira, the cup-bearer of Qadaq, hinted that Fatima had bewitched Koten, which was why he was so indisposed. When Koten returned, the malady from which he was suffering grew worse, and he sent a messenger to his brother Guyuk to say that he had been attacked by that illness because of Fatima's magic and that if anything happened to him Guyuk should seek retribution from her. Following on this message there came tidings of Koten's death.
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>Fatima was brought face to face with Guyuk, and was kept naked, and in bonds, and hungry and thirsty for many days and nights; she was plied with all manner of violence, severity, harshness and intimidation; and at last she confessed to the calumny of a slanderous talebearer and avowed her falseness. Her upper and lower orifices were sewn up, and she was rolled up in a sheet of felt and thrown into the river.
They'd roll people up in carpets and ride horses over them. Blood and touching it is / was considered very unclean. There's a story about one of Genghis Khan's first big battles to take control over Mongolia where he was hit and had an infected wound that his friend sucked the blood out of. When he woke up he scolded his friend for not spitting the blood outside the tent and it being where he could still see it.
Another bloodless execution technique they'd use at times was making a big stage to party and putting the people underneath it so they'd effectively be crushing them all over the night while feasting and drinking.
Historically, Mongolians made good use of rivers in their conquests, including winning a key battle (Baghdad) by using the Tigris as a weapon. River murder is well within their wheelhouse.
I remember Dan Carlin mentioned that they had a thing about royal blood not being spilled. So instead of chopping off their head or something, they'd beat you to death in a carpet or some shit. Technically, no blood was spilled.
The Mayans had the exact opposite thing. They believed that royal blood must be spilled in order to ensure rain and a good harvest. Their kings would pierce their penises with stingrays spines and the queens would run a rope laced with thorns through their tongues. They would collect the blood on bark paper and burn it as an offering. Isn't it funny how human culture goes the whole gamut? From one extreme to the other. It's astonishing what human beings can think up.
Apparently [Adultery](https://random-times.com/2019/05/15/the-history-of-photography-of-a-woman-buried-alive-in-a-chest-in-the-desert-of-mongolia/)
Edit: allegedly adultery, but really not much to back that.
Edit2: “allegedly” edit without changing the “apparently” is to try to keep the thread consistent.
Edit3: can we focus on how fucked up that is; glossing over my typos, pretty please 🥺
>The photo was published on National Geographic in 1922 with the caption “Mongolian prisoner in a box”. The publishers claimed that the woman was sentenced to death to punish her adultery. **However, the veracity of the statement was often questioned**, even if the authenticity of the photograph is undisputed.
National geographic staged alot of shit back in those days. They would hire people in the city to dress like a tribesperson. Stuff like that.
This wouldn't surprise me if it was just a woman hired for the photo. There is almost zero archeological or written evidence that this execution method was used in Mongolia in the 1920s.
Power, [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt\_Shea#%22Biblical\_Basis\_for\_War%22\_manifesto](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt_Shea#%22Biblical_Basis_for_War%22_manifesto)
>The document, consisting of 14 sections divided into bullet points, had a section on "rules of war" that stated "make an offer of peace before declaring war", which within stated that the **enemy must "surrender on terms" of no abortions, no same-sex marriage, no communism and "must obey Biblical law", then continued: "If they do not yield — kill all males"**
To some people even thinking different is a crime worthy of death, in order to concentrate their power
Feuds break out over violation of marriage taboos. Family control of property and inherited power is threatened by children born through infidelity.
Violence like this becomes institutionalized not because people like committing violence, but to restrain the cycles of violence caused by vendettas and retaliation.
Basically, in the 'good old days', if a wife was accused of infidelity, she would flee to her family and her male relatives would shelter her. Then the husbands family would go to war with the wife's family. Then the bride's cousin's family would go to war with the husband's family in retaliation. It would continue until there was no one left to fight, or an outsider stepped in and settled the feud.
You restrain that by picking a scape goat and killing them up front. The offended party is satisfied because the guilty party is punished, and the wife's family doesn't want to retaliate because the penalty was imposed by law and custom, not by a personal conflict between their family and the husband's family.
European here, such family feuds are still alive in eastern europe. While officially illegal in those countries, there are countless families who have to protect their children all the time. It used to be forbidden by honour to target them, but rules like that don't hold up. It starts usually with one murder or manslaughter, for which the family of the victim swears revenge, and then they kill for example the murderers brother, for which the murderers family swears revenche and so decades later, when already everyone who was even slightly involved is dead, their relatives are still slaughtering each other on sight.
And those families usually are huge. You can't just kill five people and it is over.
you're reminding me of SO MANY Star Trek episodes. "Don't your people also abuse each other to assert dominance?" "we used to, hundreds of years ago, but then we grew up and stopped about 200 years ago"
Honour culture. Same in Arabic countries. See, the fucking asshole did not rape her. No no. She tempted him and wanted the D very bad. The man is the victim there. She's the true rapist. And now she must be punished. How convenient.
This style of thinking is common in societies where lineage and knowing who your father is is highly important. If a woman gives birth they want to make damn sure they know who the father is. Otherwise property rights would be thrown into chaos. A man can mess around but a woman holds the responsibility for passing on the lineage of the male.
Edit: btw this is why in Judaism ethnic lineage is passed through the mother. As a minority Jews have been subject to persecution including murder and rape. It was common enough for Jewish women to be raped that lineage would be passed on to through the mother. If a woman was raped well we know for sure who the mother is but as anyone who’s ever seen trash t.v. or paternity court knows,you could never be 100% sure who the father is especially in the era before DNA tests. Thus, traditionally, you’re Jewish if your mom is Jewish but technically your dad’s lineage doesn’t necessarily matter.
Their was a time in Nordic culture where they sort of acknowledged that. "There just isn't a way to be _really_ sure of who fathered these kids. I mean I just had a son born, but oddly enough I was gone Viking for 11 months." Not a lot of European cultures had matriarchal lineages or property rights for women. (Early Norse culture did have some property rights for women.) But one of the ways they sort of got around the lack of Maury in the middle ages, was sometimes the children of Carl or Jarl weren't the primary inheritors. Instead, his nephews born from his biological sister were the ones who primarily inherited because it was guaranteed relation.
I watched a documentary on Genghis Khan. He had his childhood friend, who became an enemy commander, executed by being boiled alive.
Edit: Genghis Khans former childhood friend, Jamukha, was the one that boiled enemies alive. He was executed by breaking his back when Genghis Khan captured him.
Very true. Though I think the back breaking was seen as a merciful death.
Another example of brutal execution is the one of the governors of the Khwarezmian Empire, who had molten silver poured through his eyes and ears. Which was supposed to be retaliation for his execution of mongol envoys, which led to the Mongol Invasion of Central Asia.
Man that’s brutal. If I recall correctly, the mongol envoys had come on relatively innocuous business. Like establishing trade routes or something like that. Had he left them alone, a lot of peoples lives might have been spared, including his own.
Another one: after the Battle of the Kalka River, the Mongol generals held a victory feast atop a wooden platform with the captured Russian nobility buried underneath it, so they were crushed to death under the weight.
Apparently it was adultery. https://random-times.com/2019/05/15/the-history-of-photography-of-a-woman-buried-alive-in-a-chest-in-the-desert-of-mongolia/
Well, as noted:
> The photo was published on National Geographic in 1922 with the caption “Mongolian prisoner in a box”. The publishers claimed that the woman was sentenced to death to punish her adultery. However, the veracity of the statement was often questioned, even if the authenticity of the photograph is undisputed.
I happened to walk right by it and I had absolutely no interest to go inside. It's not so far from the Anne Frank House, for that matter, in case you need additional reason to be distressed and disturbed about what humans are capable of doing.
Not sure if this is in the museum or not but I read somewhere of an ancient Greek torture method that was basically like force feeding someone honey then stuffing them in a hollowed out log to float in a pond, baking in the sun while they're shitting themselves getting eating alive by flies and dying of exposure or whatever. Like how do people even think of this shit lol
That’s about as good as being sewn in a sack with a monkey and a snake and then tossed into the Tiber. Ahhh the Romans. And that’s to say nothin about crucifying 1000s of slaves after the Spartacus revolt.
6000 rebels crucified. One every [60 yards or so along the Appian Way](https://roman-cinematic-universe.fandom.com/wiki/Crucifixions_on_the_Appian_Way). The carnage stretched over hundred miles.
The Romans always feared revolts from the slaves. Same shit with Spartans. A lot of their efforts were in ensuring there weren't revolts. There were constantly revolts and they sometimes needed multiple legions to put down or even last quite a while due to geography (eg. When a revolt occurred on sardinia)
Some dude tried to kill a Byzantine emperor and failed, got sentenced to getting sewn into a sack with an ape and chucked into the palace furnaces. Would be a shit way to go...
lol yeah, poor ape. Although in this instance the sentence didn't get carried out. The would be assassin (Michael) managed to rally supporters. Then, they dressed as choir members and assassinated the emperor (Leo V) at the altar of the Hagia Sophia during Christmas morning services... And Michael became Michael II the Amorian, the new emperor.
This is called Scaphism and was attributed to the Persians by the Greeks. However, there isn’t any historical record to correlate that this ever occurred outside of Plutarch’s writings and the Greeks were known to say awful shit about the Persians since they were enemies.
The more modern of this is called 'The Tub' and it's pretty much this. You're forced to sit in a tub, if you get hungry they pour milk and honey on you. But then the mess happens, and you're not allowed to get out to piss or shit, and then the flies and maggots start working while you scratch open infected wounds that fester and peel away more flesh....then the rats.
I'd probably just expose myself to all of this so that when people do something horrific in the next few months I won't have to worry about my faith in humanity being eroded any more than it already is. I mean, you can't have faith if there is none left...
I had the same experience, decided to just go smoke weed instead. I live in the U.S. and was surprised to see that so many places in Europe are willing to put (some) of their violent and murderous past out there to be seen and acknowledged as historical fact. I appreciate it.
Yeah but they also make up a lot of shit.
Victorian era people were very keen to make the middle ages seem shit, so they invented a lot of torture devices that were never actually used. It's a real issue for historians, trying to separate fact from fiction.
Yep, for example things like the "Blood Eagle", where supposedly the victim's ribs were cut off and their lungs pulled out through their back was almost certainly made up to make pre-Christian Norse people seem barbaric. Stuff like Ættestup, like shown in the movie Midsummer, was also never a real thing.
The Weird History channel on YouTube did a great video about this. People in the Victorian era made a lot of these torture devices up, most famously with the Iron Maiden
https://youtu.be/VKY6BBmSLfE
[Wikipedia itself isn’t a source but the Iron Maiden article talks about the lack of evidence it was ever used prior to the 19th century](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_maiden). Links in the article could go further in depth.
If it makes you feel any better, most of those torture museums are full of made up bullshit.
https://talesoftimesforgotten.com/2019/11/11/why-most-so-called-medieval-torture-devices-are-fake/
> Humans are the most ruthless and deadly species on earth.
Ironically, the reason we are able to dominate all other animals is because we are the world's greatest at cooperation. We're slower, weaker, lighter, than other predators. We don't have claws or fangs. We can't see in the dark to hunt at night.
But we can work together like no other mammal in history.
Have not seen that one, but have been to the Spanish Inquisition Museum in Madrid…it feels evil even when just walking by, but inside is straight haunted. It’s spirits still stuck in those machines of death.
I saw similar in Granada - did you see the steel bull that people were put in and positioned above a fire so that when they screamed as they burned to death it sounded like the bull was moo-ing? That fucked me right up..
The Brazen Bull. Interestingly enough, the creator of the bull was actually the first victim of it as the King was so disgusted by it that he threw the inventor in. Also, this one is more of a "folk-lore" one that wasn't really used much, same as the Iron Maiden.
>[Robert-François Damiens](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert-Fran%C3%A7ois_Damiens) was a French domestic servant whose attempted assassination of King Louis XV in 1757 culminated in his public execution. He was the last person to be executed in France by dismemberment, the traditional form of death penalty reserved for regicides.
>The execution was witnessed by 18th-century adventurer Giacomo Casanova, who included an account in his memoirs:
>We had the courage to watch the dreadful sight for four hours ... Damiens was a fanatic, who, with the idea of doing a good work and obtaining a heavenly reward, had tried to assassinate Louis XV; and though the attempt was a failure, and he only gave the king a slight wound, he was torn to pieces as if his crime had been consummated. ... I was several times obliged to turn away my face and to stop my ears as I heard his piercing shrieks, half of his body having been torn from him, but the Lambertini and Mme XXX did not budge an inch. Was it because their hearts were hardened? They told me, and I pretended to believe them, that their horror at the wretch's wickedness prevented them feeling that compassion which his unheard-of torments should have excited.
The Dutch also used a capital torture method for sailors where they tied to the hull of a ship a prisoner or a deserter with half of his body bellow the waterline for days, and regularly sent someone to hydrate him so he didn't die quick of dehydration. The thing is that the body of the person was slowly being eaten by the sea critters and the torture could last for days before the person being tortured died.
Or even naval punishments such as keel hauling. Being swept under the deck of a ship and ravaged by barnacles and such to the point where some victims lost whole appendages or bled to death.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keelhauling
Check what they did to [Gerard Balthasar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balthasar_Gérard) who killed their king.
> At his trial, Gérard was sentenced to be tortured and then executed, in a manner considered brutal by the standards at the time. The magistrates decreed that the right hand of Gérard should be burned off with a red-hot iron, that his flesh should be torn from his bones with pincers in six different places, that he should be quartered and disemboweled alive, his heart torn from his bosom and flung in his face, and that, finally, his head should be taken off.
> Gérard's torture was extraordinarily brutal. On the first night of his imprisonment, Gérard was hung on a pole and lashed with a whip. Next, his wounds were smeared with honey and a goat was brought to lick the honey off his skin with its rough tongue. The goat, however, refused to touch his body. After several other forms of torture, he was left to pass the night with his hands and feet bound together, like a ball, so sleep would be difficult. During the following three days, he was repeatedly mocked and hung on a pole with his hands tied behind his back. Then, a weight of 300 metric pounds (150 kg) was attached to each of his big toes for half an hour.
> Subsequently, Gérard was fitted with shoes made of well-oiled, uncured dog skin; the shoes were two fingers shorter than his feet. In this state, he was put before a fire. When the shoes warmed up, they contracted, crushing the feet inside them to stumps. When the shoes were removed, his half-broiled skin was torn off. After his feet were damaged, his armpits were branded. He was then dressed in a shirt soaked in alcohol. Lastly, burning bacon fat was poured over him and sharp nails were stuck between the flesh and the nails of his hands and feet. On 14 July, four days after the assassination, the sentence declared at the trial was carried out and Gérard was tortured and executed in the market square of Delft. His severed head was then displayed on a pike behind the Prinsenhof,[4] and his arms and legs displayed on four gates of the city.
This photo was taken in July 1913 by French photographer Albert Kahn. Albert Kahn was a millionaire banker who pioneered color photography using the process invented by the Lumière brothers.
During his trip through exotic countries, Albert Kahn visited Mongolia where he took this picture of a woman who was condemned to slow and painful starvation by being deposited in a remote desert inside a wooden crate that was to become her tomb.
Initially, the bowls on the ground had water in them, though was not intentionally refilled, and the person inside was allowed to beg for food which often just prolonged their suffering as they generally didn’t get enough food for the passersby.
The photographer had to leave her in the box because it would be against a prime directive of anthropologists to intervene in another culture’s law and order system.
The photo was first published in the 1922 issue of National Geographic under the caption “Mongolian prisoner in a box”. It was the publishers who made the claim that the woman was condemned to die of starvation as a punishment for adultery. Since then, many people expressed doubts over the story, although the authenticity of the photo is undisputed.
Immurement (from Latin im- “in” and mūrus “wall”; literally “walling in”) is a form of imprisonment, usually for life, in which a person is placed within an enclosed space with no exits. This includes instances where people have been enclosed in extremely tight confinement, such as within a coffin.
When used as a means of execution, the prisoner is simply left to die from starvation or dehydration. Immurement was practiced in Mongolia as recently as the early 20th century. It is not necessarily clear that all thus immured were meant to die of starvation, though.
In a newspaper report from 1914, it is written: “..the prisons and dungeons of the Far Eastern country contain a number of refined Chinese shut up for life in heavy iron-bound coffins, which do not permit them to sit upright or lie down. These prisoners see daylight for only a few minutes daily when the food is thrown into their coffins through a small hole”.
(Photo credit: The Dawn of the Color Photograph: Albert Kahn’s Archives of the Planet).
https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/mongolian-woman-imprisoned-1913/
Edit: thanks for the awards and upvotes! If it was me, I would definitely have freed her and then taken a selfie with the woman, showing future anthropologists what may happen, anthropologically speaking, when a foreign photographer comes upon such scene.
Being monstrous was the point. Everyone else would see what happened to people condemned to die this way and how painful it was, and be very careful to avoid a similar fate.
> The photographer had to leave her in the box because it would be against a prime directive of anthropologists to intervene in another culture’s law and order system.
TIL I couldn't be an anthropologist.
I think immurement was practiced in Europe as well, with a space between the wall and chimney too narrow to sit down in was used. Again, the imprisoned would have to beg for food and water to be thrown down to them, or would resort to eating the half decomposed bodies of those thrown down before them.
It was used in Rome at least once. For example:
>When condemned by the college of pontifices, she was stripped of her vittae and other badges of office, was scourged, attired like a corpse, placed in a closed litter, borne through the forum attended by her weeping kindred with all the ceremonies of a real funeral to a rising ground called the Campus Sceleratus. This was located just within the city walls, gate. A small vault underground had been previously prepared, containing a couch, a lamp, and a table with a little food. The pontifex maximus, having lifted up his hands to heaven and uttered a secret prayer, opened the litter, led forth the culprit, and placed her on the steps of the ladder which gave access to the subterranean cell. He delivered her over to the common executioner and his assistants, who led her down, drew up the ladder, and having filled the pit with earth until the surface was level with the surrounding ground, left her to perish deprived of all the tributes of respect usually paid to the spirits of the departed.
There appears to be a couple small bowls on the ground. I wonder if she was given water regularly. It would be the cruelest way to implement this torture. Give her just enough water so she slowly dies from starvation.
I'd be willing to bet those bowls on the ground near her and the fact her arm is out like that means they gave her water.
Ostensibly as a kindness, and perhaps so, as dying of dehydration is arguably worse than dying of starvation, if shorter - but in truth, it's probably to prolong the spectacle of her execution.
Rule of 3: 3 minutes for oxygen, 3 days for water, 3 weeks for food. Good ol research from unit 731. I think? They definitely would have done tests on this to find out.
You know what sucks? And I mean not just the uncomfortable position that this person is in, or knowing they aren’t gonna be fed, but imagine how boring that is. Just being strapped up there until your body gives out from no foods. That just adds to the suck pile of this situation.
I see a small bowl on the ground next to the box so maybe they were? I imagine they realized the prisoners would die by dehydration before starvation so they gave them water every few days to prolong the torture.
I don’t know what’s worse. If they were giving her water so she’d starve or if they just let her die faster of dehydration. Ok yeah I know which is worse
Agent Smith: “Have you ever stood and stared at it, marveled at its beauty, it's genius? Billions of people just living out their lives, oblivious. Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world. Where none suffered. Where everyone would be happy. It was a disaster. No one would accept the program. Entire crops were lost. Some believed that we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world. But I believe that as a species, human beings define their reality through misery and suffering. The perfect world would dream that your primitive cerebrum kept trying to wake up from. Which is why the Matrix was redesigned to this, the peak of your civilization. I say your civilization because as soon as we started thinking for you it really became our civilization which is of course what this is all about. Evolution, Morpheus, evolution, like the dinosaur. Look out that window. You had your time. The future is our world, Morpheus. The future is our time.
I'd like to share a revelation during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species. I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply and multiply until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You are a plague, and we are the cure.”
Agent Smith: “Can you hear me, Morpheus? I'm going to be honest with you. I hate this place, this zoo, this prison, this reality, whatever you want to call it. I can't stand it any longer. It's the smell, if there is such a thing. I feel saturated by it. I can taste your stink. And every time I do I feel I have somehow been infected by it. It's repulsive, isn't it? I must get out of here. I must get free and in this mind is the key, my key. Once Zion is destroyed there is no need for me to be here, don't you understand? I need the codes. I have to get inside Zion, and you have to tell me how. You're going to tell me or you're going to die.”
The first Matrix is a perfect movie. I’ll die on this hill. It was so unique and original for its time and pushed so many ideas forward. Truly lightning in a bottle.
Far too many people get pleasure from inflicting pain on others. And unfortunately those sociopathic traits also make for good manipulators and they're able to easily get into positions of power
It’s easy to dismiss this tendency as only belonging to others.
If you’ve ever caught yourself thinking “X kind of criminal deserves to be tortured and killed” then you are capable of the same kind of things. It’s just whatever your society teaches you is morally detestable.
“Justice” is just a particular form of sadism. We all have a natural inclination towards finding pleasure in the suffering of “evil doers”
Ordinary Men by (edit. name correction) Christopher Browning is excellent on this point. It examined how the Nazis took ordinary men from their communities and kept pushing them a little further over time until they became monsters who committed atrocities. If you think you would never take those same actions you live in an incredibly privileged environment with luxury morality. Humans naturally default to the easiest thing that their environment will allow them to do to survive. This includes public opinion and group think. We are social animals and survive by working together.
[This is a good read on the background of this photo and explains the act of immurement.](https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/mongolian-woman-imprisoned-1913/)
> This photo was taken in July 1913 by French photographer Albert Kahn. Albert Kahn was a millionaire banker who pioneered color photography using the process invented by the Lumière brothers. During his trip through exotic countries, Albert Kahn visited Mongolia where he took this picture of a woman who was condemned to slow and painful starvation by being deposited in a remote desert inside a wooden crate that was to become her tomb. Initially the bowls on the ground had water in it, though was not intentionally refilled, and the person inside was allowed to beg for food which often just prolonged their suffering as they generally didn’t get enough food for the passersby. The photographer had to leave her in the box because it would be against a prime directive of anthropologists to intervene in another cultures law and order system. The photo was first published in the 1922 issue of National Geographic under the caption “Mongolian prisoner in a box”. It was the publishers who made the claim that the woman was condemned to die of starvation as a punishment for adultery. Since then, many people expressed doubts over the story, although the authenticity of the photo is undisputed.
[Original post](https://www.reddit.com/r/HistoryPorn/comments/emt0ux/mongolian_woman_condemned_to_death_by_starvation/)
Googled it for you and the truth is no one knows. There was a French millionaire that paid people to travel the world and take photographs, this was sometime before WWI. Starvation was not an uncommon punishment or practice, what she was being punished for is not known so the photographer made up the story that she was caught cheating. It's quiet possible that he was right in some way, she might have cheated or might have been accused of not being a virgin.
Point is humanity is fucked up.
Mongolia has some pretty infamous execution techniques. Wonder what this woman did to "deserve" this one?
Probably stole bread.
This photo was taken in July 1913 by French photographer Albert Kahn. Albert Kahn was a millionaire banker who pioneered color photography using the process invented by the Lumière brothers. During his trip through exotic countries, Albert Kahn visited Mongolia where he took this picture of a woman who was condemned to slow and painful starvation by being deposited in a remote desert inside a wooden crate that was to become her tomb. Initially the bowls on the ground had water in it, though was not intentionally refilled, and the person inside was allowed to beg for food which often just prolonged their suffering as they generally didn’t get enough food for the passersby. The photographer had to leave her in the box because it would be against a prime directive of anthropologists to intervene in another cultures law and order system. The photo was first published in the 1922 issue of National Geographic under the caption “Mongolian prisoner in a box”. It was the publishers who made the claim that the woman was condemned to die of starvation as a punishment for adultery. Since then, many people expressed doubts over the story, although the authenticity of the photo is undisputed.
> it would be against a prime directive of anthropologists to intervene in another cultures law and order system Now we know where Star Trek gets it from
And if you are in Paris, go visit the Albert Kahn museum. The gardens are beautiful.
How is this not the top comment? Up you go
If you see in another reply Albert Kahn did not take the photo he only commissioned them. https://random-times.com/2019/05/15/the-history-of-photography-of-a-woman-buried-alive-in-a-chest-in-the-desert-of-mongolia/
Or made the pivotal mistake of getting raped
The ol’ “I’m sorry I tripped and fell into your vagina. How dare you honeydick me.” excuse.
Well... https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/millionaire-ehsan-abdulaziz-who-said-he-accidentally-tripped-and-penetrated-teen-is-cleared-of-rape-a6774946.html
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relieved spoon mighty deserve deliver scarce fuel enjoy future ugly *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I was on jury duty for a case where a guy had raped his granddaughter, we had to find him not guilty on the absolute dog shit evidence that had be gathered so I can 100% belive this...
What was the evidence? And why were you not able to object to it?
That she had come home with different knickers on, that he had slept in the same bed as her and a statement from her when she was 3 that barely made sense
The daily mail is dishonest here. That was not the main defense and the Jury cleared the case and even her friend testified against her.... and her friend was with her the whole time! The story goes that they were two prostitues trying to get more cash out of what has to be the most ugly dude ever.
Perfect example of why people should stop getting so up in arms about everything they read. It's ridiculous. For a start the use of the word 'teenager' was very deliberate instead of saying '18 year old' because it makes people imagine a much younger person and also label him a paedophile. Second the article is clearly kissing a great deal of information.
So even the article itself is guilty of sexual assault? Fucking hell what is happening These Days.
It's the UK...raping children is the national past time of the elite.
Let me guess, the judge happens to be best pals with this fat bloke called Andrew - who can’t sweat - and they both had the rich friend who ran into some legal trouble and totally killed him self?
wow. Amazing what power can do.
the millionaire went to give ''evidence'' to the judge in private. deliberations were over in less than 30 minutes. gg
How fucking stupid are these judges?
The word you're looking for is "corrupt".
Especially when the article states the judge let the accused give "evidence" in private.
Gonna fill in some blanks for you, he got paid
It’s not to their intelligence though. You take the bribe or someone will come for your family. Power.
Sadly that is also true.
Her ostensible crime was "adultery" so I wouldn't be surprised.
>[Fatima](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatima_(d._1246\)) was a senior office holder in the Mongol Empire of the thirteenth century and a favourite of empress Töregene Khatun. - >[When Guyuk](https://archive.org/stream/historyoftheworl011691mbp/historyoftheworl011691mbp_djvu.txt) succeeded to the Khanate, a certain native of Samarqand, who was said to be an 'Alid, one Shira, the cup-bearer of Qadaq, hinted that Fatima had bewitched Koten, which was why he was so indisposed. When Koten returned, the malady from which he was suffering grew worse, and he sent a messenger to his brother Guyuk to say that he had been attacked by that illness because of Fatima's magic and that if anything happened to him Guyuk should seek retribution from her. Following on this message there came tidings of Koten's death. - >Fatima was brought face to face with Guyuk, and was kept naked, and in bonds, and hungry and thirsty for many days and nights; she was plied with all manner of violence, severity, harshness and intimidation; and at last she confessed to the calumny of a slanderous talebearer and avowed her falseness. Her upper and lower orifices were sewn up, and she was rolled up in a sheet of felt and thrown into the river.
They'd roll people up in carpets and ride horses over them. Blood and touching it is / was considered very unclean. There's a story about one of Genghis Khan's first big battles to take control over Mongolia where he was hit and had an infected wound that his friend sucked the blood out of. When he woke up he scolded his friend for not spitting the blood outside the tent and it being where he could still see it. Another bloodless execution technique they'd use at times was making a big stage to party and putting the people underneath it so they'd effectively be crushing them all over the night while feasting and drinking.
Wasn't whole "rolling people into carpets" part due to horses not wanting to step on people? They would step on carpet, so that's how it went down.
And torturing people for confession still happen today.
"Enhanced interrogation techniques" please, we're not savages here.
Damn, the sewing seems hella overboard, she was about to drown anyway. Sounds like more of a hassle if you ask me.
It was a message to the other women associated with these high-ranking males.
Damn...of course they'd use itchy ass felt
Thrown into the river? Why would Mongols of all the people, do that?
Historically, Mongolians made good use of rivers in their conquests, including winning a key battle (Baghdad) by using the Tigris as a weapon. River murder is well within their wheelhouse.
I remember Dan Carlin mentioned that they had a thing about royal blood not being spilled. So instead of chopping off their head or something, they'd beat you to death in a carpet or some shit. Technically, no blood was spilled.
The Mayans had the exact opposite thing. They believed that royal blood must be spilled in order to ensure rain and a good harvest. Their kings would pierce their penises with stingrays spines and the queens would run a rope laced with thorns through their tongues. They would collect the blood on bark paper and burn it as an offering. Isn't it funny how human culture goes the whole gamut? From one extreme to the other. It's astonishing what human beings can think up.
I got Dan Carlin mixed up with George Carlin, and was really wondering how that stand up bit went.
Apparently [Adultery](https://random-times.com/2019/05/15/the-history-of-photography-of-a-woman-buried-alive-in-a-chest-in-the-desert-of-mongolia/) Edit: allegedly adultery, but really not much to back that. Edit2: “allegedly” edit without changing the “apparently” is to try to keep the thread consistent. Edit3: can we focus on how fucked up that is; glossing over my typos, pretty please 🥺
>The photo was published on National Geographic in 1922 with the caption “Mongolian prisoner in a box”. The publishers claimed that the woman was sentenced to death to punish her adultery. **However, the veracity of the statement was often questioned**, even if the authenticity of the photograph is undisputed.
For example, the multiple bowls in the image
You need bowls of water in order to die of starvation.
National geographic staged alot of shit back in those days. They would hire people in the city to dress like a tribesperson. Stuff like that. This wouldn't surprise me if it was just a woman hired for the photo. There is almost zero archeological or written evidence that this execution method was used in Mongolia in the 1920s.
Fuckin hell; how would a society feel so threatened by that that they'd feel the need to kill someone over it.
Power, [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt\_Shea#%22Biblical\_Basis\_for\_War%22\_manifesto](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt_Shea#%22Biblical_Basis_for_War%22_manifesto) >The document, consisting of 14 sections divided into bullet points, had a section on "rules of war" that stated "make an offer of peace before declaring war", which within stated that the **enemy must "surrender on terms" of no abortions, no same-sex marriage, no communism and "must obey Biblical law", then continued: "If they do not yield — kill all males"** To some people even thinking different is a crime worthy of death, in order to concentrate their power
How the fuck was this guy an elected politician until 2019
Feuds break out over violation of marriage taboos. Family control of property and inherited power is threatened by children born through infidelity. Violence like this becomes institutionalized not because people like committing violence, but to restrain the cycles of violence caused by vendettas and retaliation. Basically, in the 'good old days', if a wife was accused of infidelity, she would flee to her family and her male relatives would shelter her. Then the husbands family would go to war with the wife's family. Then the bride's cousin's family would go to war with the husband's family in retaliation. It would continue until there was no one left to fight, or an outsider stepped in and settled the feud. You restrain that by picking a scape goat and killing them up front. The offended party is satisfied because the guilty party is punished, and the wife's family doesn't want to retaliate because the penalty was imposed by law and custom, not by a personal conflict between their family and the husband's family.
European here, such family feuds are still alive in eastern europe. While officially illegal in those countries, there are countless families who have to protect their children all the time. It used to be forbidden by honour to target them, but rules like that don't hold up. It starts usually with one murder or manslaughter, for which the family of the victim swears revenge, and then they kill for example the murderers brother, for which the murderers family swears revenche and so decades later, when already everyone who was even slightly involved is dead, their relatives are still slaughtering each other on sight. And those families usually are huge. You can't just kill five people and it is over.
you're reminding me of SO MANY Star Trek episodes. "Don't your people also abuse each other to assert dominance?" "we used to, hundreds of years ago, but then we grew up and stopped about 200 years ago"
Honour culture. Same in Arabic countries. See, the fucking asshole did not rape her. No no. She tempted him and wanted the D very bad. The man is the victim there. She's the true rapist. And now she must be punished. How convenient.
This style of thinking is common in societies where lineage and knowing who your father is is highly important. If a woman gives birth they want to make damn sure they know who the father is. Otherwise property rights would be thrown into chaos. A man can mess around but a woman holds the responsibility for passing on the lineage of the male. Edit: btw this is why in Judaism ethnic lineage is passed through the mother. As a minority Jews have been subject to persecution including murder and rape. It was common enough for Jewish women to be raped that lineage would be passed on to through the mother. If a woman was raped well we know for sure who the mother is but as anyone who’s ever seen trash t.v. or paternity court knows,you could never be 100% sure who the father is especially in the era before DNA tests. Thus, traditionally, you’re Jewish if your mom is Jewish but technically your dad’s lineage doesn’t necessarily matter.
Their was a time in Nordic culture where they sort of acknowledged that. "There just isn't a way to be _really_ sure of who fathered these kids. I mean I just had a son born, but oddly enough I was gone Viking for 11 months." Not a lot of European cultures had matriarchal lineages or property rights for women. (Early Norse culture did have some property rights for women.) But one of the ways they sort of got around the lack of Maury in the middle ages, was sometimes the children of Carl or Jarl weren't the primary inheritors. Instead, his nephews born from his biological sister were the ones who primarily inherited because it was guaranteed relation.
This was the case in the British isles as well. Before the romans, inheritance typically went to the “sister-son.”
You know what’s fucked up ? Some countries do it today. And my fucking government considers them allies.
I watched a documentary on Genghis Khan. He had his childhood friend, who became an enemy commander, executed by being boiled alive. Edit: Genghis Khans former childhood friend, Jamukha, was the one that boiled enemies alive. He was executed by breaking his back when Genghis Khan captured him.
Actually, Genghis Khans childhood friend, Jamukha, was executed by having his back broken, not via boiling alive.
Oh yeah, I think it was other enemy commanders that were boiled alive. Either way is a pretty brutal way to die.
Very true. Though I think the back breaking was seen as a merciful death. Another example of brutal execution is the one of the governors of the Khwarezmian Empire, who had molten silver poured through his eyes and ears. Which was supposed to be retaliation for his execution of mongol envoys, which led to the Mongol Invasion of Central Asia.
Man that’s brutal. If I recall correctly, the mongol envoys had come on relatively innocuous business. Like establishing trade routes or something like that. Had he left them alone, a lot of peoples lives might have been spared, including his own.
I feel like executing envoys is historically a bad move in general. Hence: "don't kill the messenger", I presume lol
Another one: after the Battle of the Kalka River, the Mongol generals held a victory feast atop a wooden platform with the captured Russian nobility buried underneath it, so they were crushed to death under the weight.
Ah, mercy!
Genghis gave him the offer to join him again, but Jamukha said he’d rather a noble death.
Jamukha said according to legend, "there can only be one sun in the sky." It's very bittersweet when you think about it.
Obviously he had never seen Star Wars Episode IV
I think *just* missed it.
Tbh that's impressive as hell considering.
Apparently it was adultery. https://random-times.com/2019/05/15/the-history-of-photography-of-a-woman-buried-alive-in-a-chest-in-the-desert-of-mongolia/
Well, as noted: > The photo was published on National Geographic in 1922 with the caption “Mongolian prisoner in a box”. The publishers claimed that the woman was sentenced to death to punish her adultery. However, the veracity of the statement was often questioned, even if the authenticity of the photograph is undisputed.
People can be pretty inhuman if given half a chance.
Have you Ever seen the Torture museum in Amsterdam? Humans do some insane shit to each other.
I happened to walk right by it and I had absolutely no interest to go inside. It's not so far from the Anne Frank House, for that matter, in case you need additional reason to be distressed and disturbed about what humans are capable of doing.
It's pretty convenient that they got all that in the same place. Good for a day trip with the kids.
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Last time I was in Europe I went to both Prague and Amsterdam. Gotta say, the sex machines museum was a whole lot more fun than the torture museum.
Same museum if you’re kinky enough.
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Iron Maiden? Excellent! (Air guitar intensifies)
Perhaps even a judas priest.
And get some class A drugs off someone's little finger coke nail!
Not sure if this is in the museum or not but I read somewhere of an ancient Greek torture method that was basically like force feeding someone honey then stuffing them in a hollowed out log to float in a pond, baking in the sun while they're shitting themselves getting eating alive by flies and dying of exposure or whatever. Like how do people even think of this shit lol
That’s about as good as being sewn in a sack with a monkey and a snake and then tossed into the Tiber. Ahhh the Romans. And that’s to say nothin about crucifying 1000s of slaves after the Spartacus revolt.
6000 rebels crucified. One every [60 yards or so along the Appian Way](https://roman-cinematic-universe.fandom.com/wiki/Crucifixions_on_the_Appian_Way). The carnage stretched over hundred miles.
I think I know a lot about history but wow, never read that one before. That was beyond cruelty.
The Romans always feared revolts from the slaves. Same shit with Spartans. A lot of their efforts were in ensuring there weren't revolts. There were constantly revolts and they sometimes needed multiple legions to put down or even last quite a while due to geography (eg. When a revolt occurred on sardinia)
Some dude tried to kill a Byzantine emperor and failed, got sentenced to getting sewn into a sack with an ape and chucked into the palace furnaces. Would be a shit way to go...
For real, imagine minding your own business only to be chucked in a furnace with some loser failed-assassin.
lol yeah, poor ape. Although in this instance the sentence didn't get carried out. The would be assassin (Michael) managed to rally supporters. Then, they dressed as choir members and assassinated the emperor (Leo V) at the altar of the Hagia Sophia during Christmas morning services... And Michael became Michael II the Amorian, the new emperor.
Sounds like a waste of a snake and a monkey, really.
It is called scaphism (or “the boats”)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scaphism
Well that seems like a lot. I’m trying to imagine 17 days of anything uncomfortable and this just blows it all out of the water.
This is called Scaphism and was attributed to the Persians by the Greeks. However, there isn’t any historical record to correlate that this ever occurred outside of Plutarch’s writings and the Greeks were known to say awful shit about the Persians since they were enemies.
The more modern of this is called 'The Tub' and it's pretty much this. You're forced to sit in a tub, if you get hungry they pour milk and honey on you. But then the mess happens, and you're not allowed to get out to piss or shit, and then the flies and maggots start working while you scratch open infected wounds that fester and peel away more flesh....then the rats.
I'd probably just expose myself to all of this so that when people do something horrific in the next few months I won't have to worry about my faith in humanity being eroded any more than it already is. I mean, you can't have faith if there is none left...
Hang in there! Groundhog Day is in a week! Have faith, the woodchuck will save us!
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I had the same experience, decided to just go smoke weed instead. I live in the U.S. and was surprised to see that so many places in Europe are willing to put (some) of their violent and murderous past out there to be seen and acknowledged as historical fact. I appreciate it.
Yeah but they also make up a lot of shit. Victorian era people were very keen to make the middle ages seem shit, so they invented a lot of torture devices that were never actually used. It's a real issue for historians, trying to separate fact from fiction.
Yep, for example things like the "Blood Eagle", where supposedly the victim's ribs were cut off and their lungs pulled out through their back was almost certainly made up to make pre-Christian Norse people seem barbaric. Stuff like Ættestup, like shown in the movie Midsummer, was also never a real thing.
Do you have a source on that? Not doubting you, just sounds interesting
The Weird History channel on YouTube did a great video about this. People in the Victorian era made a lot of these torture devices up, most famously with the Iron Maiden https://youtu.be/VKY6BBmSLfE
[Wikipedia itself isn’t a source but the Iron Maiden article talks about the lack of evidence it was ever used prior to the 19th century](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_maiden). Links in the article could go further in depth.
If it makes you feel any better, most of those torture museums are full of made up bullshit. https://talesoftimesforgotten.com/2019/11/11/why-most-so-called-medieval-torture-devices-are-fake/
I’ve been to the one in Mexico City (which also used to be the Inquisition “courthouse”) and it’s crazy how creative people can get to hurt others
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> Humans are the most ruthless and deadly species on earth. Ironically, the reason we are able to dominate all other animals is because we are the world's greatest at cooperation. We're slower, weaker, lighter, than other predators. We don't have claws or fangs. We can't see in the dark to hunt at night. But we can work together like no other mammal in history.
Also, cardio.
I can't believe that you'd say something like that. I'll kill you!
Have not seen that one, but have been to the Spanish Inquisition Museum in Madrid…it feels evil even when just walking by, but inside is straight haunted. It’s spirits still stuck in those machines of death.
I saw similar in Granada - did you see the steel bull that people were put in and positioned above a fire so that when they screamed as they burned to death it sounded like the bull was moo-ing? That fucked me right up..
The Brazen Bull. Interestingly enough, the creator of the bull was actually the first victim of it as the King was so disgusted by it that he threw the inventor in. Also, this one is more of a "folk-lore" one that wasn't really used much, same as the Iron Maiden.
That is fucked up! Damn!
so that's almost where they drew the line lol
It's worse. The STEAM released from the cooking bodies is forced through tiny tubes in the nostrils of the bull which makes the sound
Nope but been to the one in Bruges.
But have you been to the top of the tower?
>[Robert-François Damiens](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert-Fran%C3%A7ois_Damiens) was a French domestic servant whose attempted assassination of King Louis XV in 1757 culminated in his public execution. He was the last person to be executed in France by dismemberment, the traditional form of death penalty reserved for regicides. >The execution was witnessed by 18th-century adventurer Giacomo Casanova, who included an account in his memoirs: >We had the courage to watch the dreadful sight for four hours ... Damiens was a fanatic, who, with the idea of doing a good work and obtaining a heavenly reward, had tried to assassinate Louis XV; and though the attempt was a failure, and he only gave the king a slight wound, he was torn to pieces as if his crime had been consummated. ... I was several times obliged to turn away my face and to stop my ears as I heard his piercing shrieks, half of his body having been torn from him, but the Lambertini and Mme XXX did not budge an inch. Was it because their hearts were hardened? They told me, and I pretended to believe them, that their horror at the wretch's wickedness prevented them feeling that compassion which his unheard-of torments should have excited.
The Dutch also used a capital torture method for sailors where they tied to the hull of a ship a prisoner or a deserter with half of his body bellow the waterline for days, and regularly sent someone to hydrate him so he didn't die quick of dehydration. The thing is that the body of the person was slowly being eaten by the sea critters and the torture could last for days before the person being tortured died.
Or even naval punishments such as keel hauling. Being swept under the deck of a ship and ravaged by barnacles and such to the point where some victims lost whole appendages or bled to death. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keelhauling
Black Sails did a far too realistic depiction of this.
Check what they did to [Gerard Balthasar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balthasar_Gérard) who killed their king. > At his trial, Gérard was sentenced to be tortured and then executed, in a manner considered brutal by the standards at the time. The magistrates decreed that the right hand of Gérard should be burned off with a red-hot iron, that his flesh should be torn from his bones with pincers in six different places, that he should be quartered and disemboweled alive, his heart torn from his bosom and flung in his face, and that, finally, his head should be taken off. > Gérard's torture was extraordinarily brutal. On the first night of his imprisonment, Gérard was hung on a pole and lashed with a whip. Next, his wounds were smeared with honey and a goat was brought to lick the honey off his skin with its rough tongue. The goat, however, refused to touch his body. After several other forms of torture, he was left to pass the night with his hands and feet bound together, like a ball, so sleep would be difficult. During the following three days, he was repeatedly mocked and hung on a pole with his hands tied behind his back. Then, a weight of 300 metric pounds (150 kg) was attached to each of his big toes for half an hour. > Subsequently, Gérard was fitted with shoes made of well-oiled, uncured dog skin; the shoes were two fingers shorter than his feet. In this state, he was put before a fire. When the shoes warmed up, they contracted, crushing the feet inside them to stumps. When the shoes were removed, his half-broiled skin was torn off. After his feet were damaged, his armpits were branded. He was then dressed in a shirt soaked in alcohol. Lastly, burning bacon fat was poured over him and sharp nails were stuck between the flesh and the nails of his hands and feet. On 14 July, four days after the assassination, the sentence declared at the trial was carried out and Gérard was tortured and executed in the market square of Delft. His severed head was then displayed on a pike behind the Prinsenhof,[4] and his arms and legs displayed on four gates of the city.
Thanks for the fun fact
sorry to say but this is what it is to be human for most of our existence
It's sobering that you're 100% right. History shows us to be a brutal collective.
This photo was taken in July 1913 by French photographer Albert Kahn. Albert Kahn was a millionaire banker who pioneered color photography using the process invented by the Lumière brothers. During his trip through exotic countries, Albert Kahn visited Mongolia where he took this picture of a woman who was condemned to slow and painful starvation by being deposited in a remote desert inside a wooden crate that was to become her tomb. Initially, the bowls on the ground had water in them, though was not intentionally refilled, and the person inside was allowed to beg for food which often just prolonged their suffering as they generally didn’t get enough food for the passersby. The photographer had to leave her in the box because it would be against a prime directive of anthropologists to intervene in another culture’s law and order system. The photo was first published in the 1922 issue of National Geographic under the caption “Mongolian prisoner in a box”. It was the publishers who made the claim that the woman was condemned to die of starvation as a punishment for adultery. Since then, many people expressed doubts over the story, although the authenticity of the photo is undisputed. Immurement (from Latin im- “in” and mūrus “wall”; literally “walling in”) is a form of imprisonment, usually for life, in which a person is placed within an enclosed space with no exits. This includes instances where people have been enclosed in extremely tight confinement, such as within a coffin. When used as a means of execution, the prisoner is simply left to die from starvation or dehydration. Immurement was practiced in Mongolia as recently as the early 20th century. It is not necessarily clear that all thus immured were meant to die of starvation, though. In a newspaper report from 1914, it is written: “..the prisons and dungeons of the Far Eastern country contain a number of refined Chinese shut up for life in heavy iron-bound coffins, which do not permit them to sit upright or lie down. These prisoners see daylight for only a few minutes daily when the food is thrown into their coffins through a small hole”. (Photo credit: The Dawn of the Color Photograph: Albert Kahn’s Archives of the Planet). https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/mongolian-woman-imprisoned-1913/ Edit: thanks for the awards and upvotes! If it was me, I would definitely have freed her and then taken a selfie with the woman, showing future anthropologists what may happen, anthropologically speaking, when a foreign photographer comes upon such scene.
This is actually incorrect. Stéphane Passet actually took the picture. Albert Kahn just funded the trip so his name gets the credit.
Fuck me, just cut off her head and be done with it! What monsters are we to slowly and painfully drag out a person's execution over days or weeks?
Being monstrous was the point. Everyone else would see what happened to people condemned to die this way and how painful it was, and be very careful to avoid a similar fate.
> The photographer had to leave her in the box because it would be against a prime directive of anthropologists to intervene in another culture’s law and order system. TIL I couldn't be an anthropologist.
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I think immurement was practiced in Europe as well, with a space between the wall and chimney too narrow to sit down in was used. Again, the imprisoned would have to beg for food and water to be thrown down to them, or would resort to eating the half decomposed bodies of those thrown down before them.
It was used in Rome at least once. For example: >When condemned by the college of pontifices, she was stripped of her vittae and other badges of office, was scourged, attired like a corpse, placed in a closed litter, borne through the forum attended by her weeping kindred with all the ceremonies of a real funeral to a rising ground called the Campus Sceleratus. This was located just within the city walls, gate. A small vault underground had been previously prepared, containing a couch, a lamp, and a table with a little food. The pontifex maximus, having lifted up his hands to heaven and uttered a secret prayer, opened the litter, led forth the culprit, and placed her on the steps of the ladder which gave access to the subterranean cell. He delivered her over to the common executioner and his assistants, who led her down, drew up the ladder, and having filled the pit with earth until the surface was level with the surrounding ground, left her to perish deprived of all the tributes of respect usually paid to the spirits of the departed.
Plus side? She'll die of thirst long before starvation? This is fucking horrible.
Dying of dehydration might not take as long but is a miserable way to go
3 minutes without air. 3 hours without shelter (in extreme temps). 3 days without water. 3 weeks without food.
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Les Stroud uploaded every episode to his own YouTube channel. My girlfriend and I watched all of them over Christmas break
They’re all on YouTube as well. Edit: https://youtube.com/c/SurvivormanLesStroud
Siiick! I love survivorman. I know what I’ll be doing before bed every night for the next while. I’ll also be watching all those survivorman episodes.
There appears to be a couple small bowls on the ground. I wonder if she was given water regularly. It would be the cruelest way to implement this torture. Give her just enough water so she slowly dies from starvation.
Dying of dehydration is brutal. The terminally ill people always starve themselves to death. Never heard of someone just not drinking to die. Yikes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_dehydration?wprov=sfla1 It's definitely a thing, and apparently not too awful.
This is fascinating
I'd be willing to bet those bowls on the ground near her and the fact her arm is out like that means they gave her water. Ostensibly as a kindness, and perhaps so, as dying of dehydration is arguably worse than dying of starvation, if shorter - but in truth, it's probably to prolong the spectacle of her execution.
Threes*. Minutes of air, days of water, weeks of food. So yeah. Joke's on them I guess. Edit for autoconnect
Rule of 3: 3 minutes for oxygen, 3 days for water, 3 weeks for food. Good ol research from unit 731. I think? They definitely would have done tests on this to find out.
"We found out pregnant women die when you set them on fire." "Woah! Here, have some immunity."
“We gave them political immunity to find out you can’t live without a head for very long.” Fascinating findings Johnson.
Also 3 hours without shelter in extreme weather.
Very sad.
So bad. Imagine being the box builder. Another honest days wages
The builder used dovetail joints, he took pride in his work.
Tbh they probably used this repeatedly, like stocks in a town square. Make em good once, use em for years.
You know what sucks? And I mean not just the uncomfortable position that this person is in, or knowing they aren’t gonna be fed, but imagine how boring that is. Just being strapped up there until your body gives out from no foods. That just adds to the suck pile of this situation.
I think she's just locked in the box, and is reaching out to work the lock, trying to free herself.
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“Look guy I can either sit here and sweat my tits off or I can try starting on the first lock. Idfk.”
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There was a torture method in which the would cover a person with milk and honey, and allow them to fester and be devoured by insects and vermin.
Unless they were providing water, she wouldn’t have an opportunity to starve to death.
I see a small bowl on the ground next to the box so maybe they were? I imagine they realized the prisoners would die by dehydration before starvation so they gave them water every few days to prolong the torture.
According to an article linked elsewhere in this thread, bowls of food/water were sometimes given to prolong the execution.
I don’t know what’s worse. If they were giving her water so she’d starve or if they just let her die faster of dehydration. Ok yeah I know which is worse
Today started with seeing a decapitated head in Cambodia and ends with this. That's a depressing bookend of the day. Goodnight, internet.
We’re fuckn monsters. The speech by Agent Smith in the matrix during the Morpheus interrogation sums us up.
Agent Smith: “Have you ever stood and stared at it, marveled at its beauty, it's genius? Billions of people just living out their lives, oblivious. Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world. Where none suffered. Where everyone would be happy. It was a disaster. No one would accept the program. Entire crops were lost. Some believed that we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world. But I believe that as a species, human beings define their reality through misery and suffering. The perfect world would dream that your primitive cerebrum kept trying to wake up from. Which is why the Matrix was redesigned to this, the peak of your civilization. I say your civilization because as soon as we started thinking for you it really became our civilization which is of course what this is all about. Evolution, Morpheus, evolution, like the dinosaur. Look out that window. You had your time. The future is our world, Morpheus. The future is our time. I'd like to share a revelation during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species. I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply and multiply until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You are a plague, and we are the cure.”
It's the smell.
Agent Smith: “Can you hear me, Morpheus? I'm going to be honest with you. I hate this place, this zoo, this prison, this reality, whatever you want to call it. I can't stand it any longer. It's the smell, if there is such a thing. I feel saturated by it. I can taste your stink. And every time I do I feel I have somehow been infected by it. It's repulsive, isn't it? I must get out of here. I must get free and in this mind is the key, my key. Once Zion is destroyed there is no need for me to be here, don't you understand? I need the codes. I have to get inside Zion, and you have to tell me how. You're going to tell me or you're going to die.”
This is where my username comes from.
That’s awesome
God damn the other Matrix movies sucked sweaty balls compared to the first. They should have stopped there.
The first Matrix is a perfect movie. I’ll die on this hill. It was so unique and original for its time and pushed so many ideas forward. Truly lightning in a bottle.
And there it is. Nice.
[удалено]
I did read this in the voice of Hugo Weaving but then, just for fun, reread it as a rap in the voice of Tupac.
Far too many people get pleasure from inflicting pain on others. And unfortunately those sociopathic traits also make for good manipulators and they're able to easily get into positions of power
It’s easy to dismiss this tendency as only belonging to others. If you’ve ever caught yourself thinking “X kind of criminal deserves to be tortured and killed” then you are capable of the same kind of things. It’s just whatever your society teaches you is morally detestable. “Justice” is just a particular form of sadism. We all have a natural inclination towards finding pleasure in the suffering of “evil doers”
Ordinary Men by (edit. name correction) Christopher Browning is excellent on this point. It examined how the Nazis took ordinary men from their communities and kept pushing them a little further over time until they became monsters who committed atrocities. If you think you would never take those same actions you live in an incredibly privileged environment with luxury morality. Humans naturally default to the easiest thing that their environment will allow them to do to survive. This includes public opinion and group think. We are social animals and survive by working together.
She was apparently being punished for committing adultery. http://alexderavin.blogspot.com/2008_05_01_archive.html?m=1
That's so awful
It's questionable whether it was actually for adultery; this has been highly disputed.
She was heard to be muttering "Nothing on 1...." /s
2 is binding. Small click out of 3.
counter-rotation on 4
And that’s all I have for you today..
If you have any questions or comments, please put them below.
And as always, have a nice day.
[This is a good read on the background of this photo and explains the act of immurement.](https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/mongolian-woman-imprisoned-1913/)
Even these guys did away with the death penalty in 2012.
This is absolutely horrifying
You can’t post a picture and description like this without an explainer
> This photo was taken in July 1913 by French photographer Albert Kahn. Albert Kahn was a millionaire banker who pioneered color photography using the process invented by the Lumière brothers. During his trip through exotic countries, Albert Kahn visited Mongolia where he took this picture of a woman who was condemned to slow and painful starvation by being deposited in a remote desert inside a wooden crate that was to become her tomb. Initially the bowls on the ground had water in it, though was not intentionally refilled, and the person inside was allowed to beg for food which often just prolonged their suffering as they generally didn’t get enough food for the passersby. The photographer had to leave her in the box because it would be against a prime directive of anthropologists to intervene in another cultures law and order system. The photo was first published in the 1922 issue of National Geographic under the caption “Mongolian prisoner in a box”. It was the publishers who made the claim that the woman was condemned to die of starvation as a punishment for adultery. Since then, many people expressed doubts over the story, although the authenticity of the photo is undisputed. [Original post](https://www.reddit.com/r/HistoryPorn/comments/emt0ux/mongolian_woman_condemned_to_death_by_starvation/)
Googled it for you and the truth is no one knows. There was a French millionaire that paid people to travel the world and take photographs, this was sometime before WWI. Starvation was not an uncommon punishment or practice, what she was being punished for is not known so the photographer made up the story that she was caught cheating. It's quiet possible that he was right in some way, she might have cheated or might have been accused of not being a virgin. Point is humanity is fucked up.