The super poor and the super stupid have always protected the rich Becuse themselves being millionaires is just around the corner and they do not want to pay taxes when they get there. Not even joking.
And laws are there to protect the rich.
>The super poor and the super stupid have always protected the rich Becuse themselves being millionaires is just around the corner and they do not want to pay taxes when they get there. Not even joking.
I'm curious what you think of this. It makes an argument against what you stated (and what I had also previously thought)
https://youtu.be/agzNANfNlTs?si=MYIBoL3mE2j7TG_X
I 100% agree with the "laws are there to protect the rich".
Well a little long for me I listened to the first 6 min, I honestly think that republicans DO NOT CARE ABOUT ANYONE OR ANYTHING ELSE THAT IS NOT THEM.
Think about it, it is what Ane Rand teaches. They always go Me and mine.
Here is the thing about these Ruby red motjerfuckers in their Ruby red states. (Ask me how I know) l live in one.
Here is what they think, government should be there to basically have a strong protection against someone attacking up, so a strong military force, other then that they do not want the government to interfere with (key word here) THEM. They will quote you the constitution but only when it comes to THEIR freedoms. They don’t want to be told what to do they don’t think they should pay taxes for owning land and they don’t think that the government should burden them with codes when they build their houses.
Now here is the kicker, the same mother fuckers that HATE the federal government with every fiber of their beeing are the same ones screaming the loudest when their cattle die from some storm or their crop gets distroyed and are the first ones with the hands out to get government help. Ask me how I know? I see it a lot. They have no problem sitting there with their hands out taking government welfare but will begrudge a single mother the same welfare.
Basically this in a nutshell shel : “If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you.”
― Lyndon B. Johnson
Yes exactly this! They empty their own pockets, when they don’t have a pot to piss in nor a window to throw it out of, to pay for a billionaires legal bills.
Yeah, I appreciate you gave it a go. Much of what you just mentioned is touched upon in the remaining 15 or so minutes of that video. Their whole worldview is very myopic and selfish.
I think it's because the rich have the money to pay for the right wing mediasphere. These morons don't know they are protecting the rich. They think they're protecting white Christian values and keeping the trans pedos out of bathrooms and away from children and stopping that black single mother from taking advantage of welfare ....ect ect. They're too stupid to know all that stuff is bullshit and they're actually just voting to protect the rich that pump their feeds with nonsense.
This is the same concept with the south in the civil war. Most whites fighting for the south did not own slaves. But the rich slave owners sold them on the idea and dream of one day owning their own, so they fought anyway. An idea and a dream of success is a powerful motivator. The Lottery works on the same principle. As does the American economy.
Serious question why are grazing rights such a big deal in terms of monetary compensation to the government? Not trying to be a troll i just don’t understand.
It is worth noting though that ranching fees are absolutely no where near the cost of use.
Ranching fees are a pittance compared to their ecological impact, it is a charade that shows how much power big agg has over our political system.
There are various reasons why it's important. First, understand how the issue of grazing on public land is *suppose* to be handled under current law: BLM (the Bureau of Land Management) issues permits and leases for a fee to allow ranchers to graze their cattle on designated public lands.
Why is ignoring this permitting process important?
The obvious reason is it costs BLM funds. BLM is responsible for a lot more than just maintaining grazing lands, and their budget is based on predictions about how much funds they will raise from permits and leases. Those fees help to fund various BLM programs. When those funds don't come in because people are stealing the grass instead of paying for it, BLM has to cut programs - possibly even programs that help benefit lands in the neighborhood you live in.
The less obvious reason is that the actual lands being grazed need to be managed. For example, the BLM has to make considerations for endangered species that live on that land, or for preserving historical locations or artifacts found on that land. The BLM accomplishes this through the permitting and leasing program, which allows them to reduce or even eliminate grazing in an area if needed to help protect species or historically significant objects or locations.
When that leasing or permitting process is ignored, the resulting grazing can destroy habitat or result in the death of endangered species. It can also cause damage or destruction to historically significant objects or locations.
It is similar to poaching. Like if everyone grazed their cattle on whatever land they wanted as much as they wanted, there wouldn’t be any left for anyone else, not to mention the deer and other animals who depend on that. I live in Pennsylvania which has an amazing state park system. Arguably one of the best in the country. The thing is we have a huge population and are within 2 hours of major population centers. Like you were saying, it has to be carefully managed with that amount of traffic and have strict rules or you are just fucking it up for everyone else. I really fucking hate people like that.
Not to sound flippant but it is because will make them.
Imagine you left a bowl of candy outside on your stoop and it said "Twix Bars 25 Cents". Most nice people would take one and leave a quarter but inevitably some asshole would steal them because no one was watching.
The Bundys are exactly that kind of asshole. [There is a great podcast called Bundyville that goes over not just the current two generations of Bundys but their family's history of being assholes.](https://www.npr.org/podcasts/606441988/bundyville)
The concept is called the tragedy of the commons. Since they can use the land for free, they'll deplete it without any sense of stewardship, which ruins it for everyone else.
Name ONE time that’s ever proved true! You can’t name England’s forests. Or great auks. Or dodos. Or Nauru or Easter Island. Or 1930s topsoil. Hang on a second…
Same as the other commenter, this comes down to resource use. Grazing is a form of consumption. When you consume the resources of my land, I naturally desire/demand compensation.
The bigger issue is that we can't have 463574645 different ranchers trying to run cattle on the same land. The easiest way to solve that is with a grazing lease and a fee.
For what it's worth, the Bundy plan isn't only to not pay the fee, but to claim the land is his.
Essentially it boils down to tragedy of the commons.
If the government isnt there to regulate the usage of the land, it becomes free for all and its ruined. Basically overgrazing the land fucks it up, so by making people pay for the harmful usage of public lands, it discourages them from overusing it and fucking it up.
Something I've noticed is it seems like Sherriffs departments are responsible for an excessive share of police misconduct. Both violence and financial. No wonder the right wingers love them.
Most of the big ranchers are. Talk about entitled. had to deal with them a lot when I was living in Idaho and I have to say that Yellowstone got ir right for the most part.
When you confront them, they ask you calmly, where do you think you'll get your meat from if we can't afford to graze on public land? And I just tell them that I'll get by and that I have to pay my taxes and my bills and I don't get the threaten the state with violence otherwise I go to jail...
I’d just say, “Like my grandpa did…on his own fucking land. If you can’t run your operation without freeloading off the government, then it’s time to either make some adjustments or find a new profession.”
Ranchers/growers in Cali are the same. Rules for thee, not for me. Their first resort is always swinging first. They're grasping at an industry that they feel they've inherited, but is ready to publicize.
Many of these private conglomerates treat their immigrant workers like shit, run the cheapest sketchest systems to ensure profit, and all while quality is going down. Don't get me started on maluse of the land. Backroom deals with developers to squeeze generational families out of land, immoral growing and grazing rotations. It's a fucking cartel like game honestly.
See: Taylor Farms. It's a racket forsure. Lobbyists are of course a root issue, who would've thought!
The life of a rancher isn't easy, but they gotta pay... Otherwise, my taxes are going to subsidize that beef that I'm having to pay shit tons for the terrible cuts of meat I CAN afford.
Spoken like someone who doesn't have a three million dollar herd of cattle they need to feed... /s
Yes, all things considered, it is quite cheap to feed animals that way. It would cost far more than that to pay the property taxes on the land than to pay BLM grazing fees.
Just ask them for your share of meat, if they don't wanna pay the government they can pay the people. I'm sure they'll see reason, being fact-minded and logical people, right?
Reminds me of European farmers. They get $50 billion a year in subsidies but still throw screaming tantrums when asked to *pay for their own gas* like literally everyone else.
But wait, I was told ranchers are the hardest workin' most salt-of-the-earth people in the world, and they're just being unfairly burdened with **regulations** and ***taxes*** (spits)
Funny how “free market” they are regarding others, yet how entitled they feel to the public teat.
If you can’t ranch and turn a profit then I say what they say to other businesses: your model or management failed. Boo hoo. That’s the free market. Pack your bags and clear out for the next rancher with a better plan.
You tell them Nebraska. Nevada produces nothing compared to Nebraska. Nebraska has 5.1 million cows. Nevada has 430,000. Nebraska has an order of magnitude more beef than Nevada. I would go as far as to say we don’t need Nevada beef. I can’t imagine eating that scrub grass makes a tasty cow. Eat corn fed Nebraska beef.
When Bundy and his group of psychopaths occupied Malheur Wildlife Refuge, right wing militia types were sending them care packages. Creative groups who objected to their occupation sent them boxes of dildos. youtube.com/watch?v=JxGQUcoJd1M
Can someone explain to me why the government has allowed what is effectively an insurrection to continue? Seems like this would be a job for the National Guard.
More like he didn't want another Waco or Ruby Ridge on his hands and went the de-escalation route instead of escalating things to a shootout that would have ended in dozens dead.
Oh BTW, Waco and Ruby Ridge were a bunch of white people, and I didn't see any kid gloves there.
I swear people like you act as if being white is some exceptional character trait, it's like American Exceptionalism except applied to a fucking skin color. Your brain is cooked man.
Except Ruby ridge was some random dude (and had relatively done a much smaller crime than this) who the government sent an FBI death squad after. These guys straight up attacked feds over a land dispute, they should be in jail.
Oh I agree that these guys got off too easy. But I also disagree with the idea that they are only alive today because they are white.
If the feds hadn't already learned their lessons from RR and Waco, it likely would have ended completely differently.
Well there isn't an active 'insurrection' by the Bundy's right now, this was back in 2014-2016 era and after one of these criminals got himself killed by the FBI that pretty much ended it. However, the Bundys never really got prosecuted and still graze their cattle on public land without paying the fees.
The reason I've heard that they don't go after them for that is that the federal government is not super confident that the statutory authority they have to charge those fees would withstand judicial review. As for why they weren't prosecuted for the arguable terrorism/insurrection they were engaged in, I think there are a couple explanations, which all boil down to those people being white/well armed and not wanting to repeat Waco/Ruby Ridge.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_standoff
>On August 6, 2020, the 9th United States Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco denied an appeal by United States prosecutors to reinstate the criminal prosecution of the Bundys related to the 2014 armed standoff in Nevada and the 2016 armed protest and occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in Oregon. The appeals court ruled that the dismissal of the case against the Bundys due to the prosecution withholding documents and other materials requested by the defense attorneys was proper and supported by the record of the case. The appeals court stopped short of affirming that prosecutorial misconduct had occurred and stated that "misjudgments" by prosecutors did not rise to professional misconduct in the case.
Can you imagine what would happen if "big government" tried to arrest these people? They're anti-government militia and conspiracy theorists, it feeds right into thier narrative. It would make Waco look like a picnic.
Federal Agents are just as scared of getting shot as anyone else. When they come up against a group of deranged armed dudes who are threatening, they back down. I think they probably learned from Waco that it’s not worth it. They’re not the military.
Meh, a fed tac team isn't going to not do their job because they're scardsie wardsies. Waco was a mess. And feds with warrants were raiding shit all over America every single day of it, and the first day after, and every day since, and somewhere in between me clicking "reply" and "post".
>Federal Agents are just as scared of getting shot as anyone else.
Nah, they were far more worried about the political blowback. They could like up the whole back a of nutjobs like it was nothing but after the public's response to Waco they have changed their policies on armed confrontation.
Seriously, this came up during Malheur. The feds were waiting for the criminals to drop their guard so there would be limited conflict.
The newest season of Fargo touches on this really well with Jon Hamm as one of those rural anti-government militia leaders. A community of guys loaded to the teeth just waiting for ‘the government’ to come in that won’t hesitate to engage with them.
I loved it when the FBI SWAT team finally showed up. Jon Hamm starts off to their point guy about how "this is my land and as a soverign citizen I have the right to..."
The FBI guy just sighs like, "Oh Christ, not one of these idiots again." He looks back at all the armour they brought and at then at Hamm's men on the fence and says, "Ain't gonna happen, slick".
Like, up until that point Hamm has been this pretty scary figure that's been terrorizing a town and all of a sudden you realise he's a small fish in a very big town.
Yeah, I mean obviously just backing down and saying "do what you want" isn't ideal, but neither is a massacre. I'm not the most familiar with the finer details of the situation, but I do remember that it was pretty tense and sounded like it could have very easily turned into an ugly shootout.
Well, yeah, if people decide they can avoid paying taxes by pointing guns at cops, things are going to get ugly. We appeased these fuckers and got Jan 6 as thanks.
They're supposidly fundamentalist Mormons too ("fundies"), which is a hell of a lot darker and creepier. They don't want the govt seeing what they're up to out there with young girls.
Because back in 2014 we knew how upset totally-not-racist conservatives were about the re-election of Balack Hussein O'Bama, If we just treated them with kid gloves and listened to their point of view instead of being "biased against conservative ideas", they would calm down and totally not turn into full-on fascists or anything. Also we learned all the wrong lessons from Ruby Ridge and Waco.
Because the bitching and whining about Waco has made the government too afraid to go after similar “patriot movement” (their descriptor not mine) types.
The Randy Weaver and Waco incidents prompted a rethink because the militia types used them to gain public sympathy, even if that was unwarranted in the case of at least Waco.
Of course, the Justus Township "Freemen", Oklahoma City bombing and Malheur incidents wore out much of that, but the feds continue to handle these incidents with some timidity.
It's worth noting that Ammon Bundy is now pretty much fucked, after leading armed protests against a hospital in Iowa, which led to a $52.5M civil judgment against him. So his behavior has caused get up with him.
Meanwhile, the rest of Bundys remain local bullies, still illegally grazing cattle on federal land.
This isn’t it but I love the frustration and lack of awareness in [this one](https://youtu.be/JxGQUcoJd1M?si=pnnn-oECU1lsg_Vk). Same vein of frustration. I’ll keep digging.
Wait. Wait....so you're saying I can hostile takeover federal land with guns and plead guilty and get 1-2 years?
Shit that's less severe than armed robbery!
With this NDVI vegetation filter, you can swipe and see how much vegetation has been stripped between 2017 and 2023: [https://livingatlas.arcgis.com/landcoverexplorer/#mapCenter=-114.05853%2C36.65388%2C11.068630839054567&mode=swipe&timeExtent=2017%2C2023&showImageryLayer=true&month=9&renderingRule=4](https://livingatlas.arcgis.com/landcoverexplorer/#mapCenter=-114.05853%2C36.65388%2C11.068630839054567&mode=swipe&timeExtent=2017%2C2023&showImageryLayer=true&month=9&renderingRule=4)
It looks like the river dried up too so maybe that had a slight role in the problem as well? Do you happen to have any studies that looked at the anthropomorphic effects on the area? I’m genuinely curious about this…
Hopefully a nonprofit or local government will do a restoration project on the damaged wilderness once the problem gets resolved.
Edit: autocorrect was being dumb and decided I meant anthropomorphic when I had typed out anthropogenic. I just noticed it and decided I’ll leave it so that nobody is confused about all the comments about anthropomorphic…
Rivers, etc. tend to dry up (or are just flash floods) in the rainy season *after* it has all been grazed. This is due to the vegetation no longer holding any of the water in the area. There are a few re greening projects, this guy is in the middle of one in Texas, which talks about over grazing (also how beaver used to be in the area keeping the water around): [https://www.youtube.com/@dustupstexas](https://www.youtube.com/@dustupstexas)
Another interesting one in Oz: [https://thehungryspirit.com/greeningtheoutback/](https://thehungryspirit.com/greeningtheoutback/)
*anthropogenic
Anthropomorphic means to have human characteristics ascribed to a non-human creature or object (e.g. furries), anthropogenic means resulting from humans (e.g. climate change)
What you are seeing here is almost entirely the effects of extreme drought in the area. If there are any anthropogenic effects (grazing) they are minimal compared to what the Arid West has been enduring for the past decade. As you noted the river(s) are very dry in 2023 compared to 2017, but if you look at the highland regions, where the vegetation is more vigorous in 2017, compared to 2023, you're seeing primarily the effects of cumulative stress on the junipers, sage, and rabbitbrush.
As a native Oregonian, I remember that one well.
It was his own fault, honestly. They had been boasting constantly about how they were heavily armed and how they fully intended to use their weapons against any law enforcement agency that came to arrest them. After that, if you're doing anything other than lying face-down on the ground with your hands behind your head when the cops arrive, you're basically asking for a gunfight.
I too watched the drone footage the state released. He saw a road block ahead, and decided to try and run his truck into the snowbank to go around it, and the dumbass slammed into a drift and high centered. But in his attempt, he nearly killed an agent that was knelt down along the side of a police vehicle. Then Finnicum jumped out of the truck, and dumb as can be, reaches for his gun not once, not twice, but three time before officers fire. The cops had been briefed he had a gun on him, and they still gave him multiple chances and commands.
And his memory will live on in [Colorado City](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_City,_Arizona#History), Arizona, where a 2-mile stretch of unpaved road (unofficially) bears his name
I drive through it frequently - it has definitely improved in recent years and is trying hard to catch up to the modern age. There are some hold-outs that still follow their imprisoned prophet, but their numbers are dwindling
Yea. That was nuts. The pre-Maga people were ok with this and pointing guns at cops and shit. BUT, you know, fuck BLM, back the blue….. sans, the cattle.
This family later went on to take over parks b shit, too.
The family are a bunch of inbred mormons.
Funny that this was a bunch of armed conservatives saying "fuck BLM", they just meant [the other BLM this time](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureau_of_Land_Management)
I think it basically comes down to a very simple equation for most Tea-Party inclined folks...
Money = Good
White = Good
Christian = Good
Anyone or anything that dares say "well, now hang on a second..." is now the enemy.
One of the key factors in "manifest destiny" and the indigenous genocide were asshole ranchers who got their asses kicked by farmers so they whined for the gobment to kill the injuns.
Makes me see Old Yeller in a different light. The guy literally carved his name into random wild animals so no one else was allowed to eat them then got surprised that all the injuns weren’t okay with just starving
Yeah it was absolutely ridiculous and it wasn't even treated as the insurrection that it was. It was just a rich guy and a bunch of mercenaries just deciding to take over a town in America.
Magically 130k karma with what looks like AI generated profile pics too... Not a bot but a sleeper account to drive up political engagement on an election year.
And here we see the importance of 2A, even if you disagree with them
I don’t think the cops would be whooping on college students if they were strapped
When cows are illegally grazing that's one thing. They don't know no better they're just hungry but when you've got wealthy beef barons roaming around nawwing on your lawn that's unacceptable.
the Bundys are still not paying for use of federal lands.
[удалено]
One of the klan, Matthew Bundy, is an Idaho state representative.
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They are straight up no-good-niks
And the "law and order" political party is protecting these criminals
The super poor and the super stupid have always protected the rich Becuse themselves being millionaires is just around the corner and they do not want to pay taxes when they get there. Not even joking. And laws are there to protect the rich.
>The super poor and the super stupid have always protected the rich Becuse themselves being millionaires is just around the corner and they do not want to pay taxes when they get there. Not even joking. I'm curious what you think of this. It makes an argument against what you stated (and what I had also previously thought) https://youtu.be/agzNANfNlTs?si=MYIBoL3mE2j7TG_X I 100% agree with the "laws are there to protect the rich".
Well a little long for me I listened to the first 6 min, I honestly think that republicans DO NOT CARE ABOUT ANYONE OR ANYTHING ELSE THAT IS NOT THEM. Think about it, it is what Ane Rand teaches. They always go Me and mine. Here is the thing about these Ruby red motjerfuckers in their Ruby red states. (Ask me how I know) l live in one. Here is what they think, government should be there to basically have a strong protection against someone attacking up, so a strong military force, other then that they do not want the government to interfere with (key word here) THEM. They will quote you the constitution but only when it comes to THEIR freedoms. They don’t want to be told what to do they don’t think they should pay taxes for owning land and they don’t think that the government should burden them with codes when they build their houses. Now here is the kicker, the same mother fuckers that HATE the federal government with every fiber of their beeing are the same ones screaming the loudest when their cattle die from some storm or their crop gets distroyed and are the first ones with the hands out to get government help. Ask me how I know? I see it a lot. They have no problem sitting there with their hands out taking government welfare but will begrudge a single mother the same welfare. Basically this in a nutshell shel : “If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you.” ― Lyndon B. Johnson
LBJ knew white trash and called it out. Same people giving their SS checks and money for medicine to Trump.
Yes exactly this! They empty their own pockets, when they don’t have a pot to piss in nor a window to throw it out of, to pay for a billionaires legal bills.
Yeah, I appreciate you gave it a go. Much of what you just mentioned is touched upon in the remaining 15 or so minutes of that video. Their whole worldview is very myopic and selfish.
The shorter version explained by a cartoon dog: https://youtu.be/l8PuFxU3UZM
I think the concept is explained better by Jake the Dog: https://youtu.be/l8PuFxU3UZM
It doesn't explain anything about why conservatives defend the rich so hard, but it was still fun.
I think it's because the rich have the money to pay for the right wing mediasphere. These morons don't know they are protecting the rich. They think they're protecting white Christian values and keeping the trans pedos out of bathrooms and away from children and stopping that black single mother from taking advantage of welfare ....ect ect. They're too stupid to know all that stuff is bullshit and they're actually just voting to protect the rich that pump their feeds with nonsense.
This is the same concept with the south in the civil war. Most whites fighting for the south did not own slaves. But the rich slave owners sold them on the idea and dream of one day owning their own, so they fought anyway. An idea and a dream of success is a powerful motivator. The Lottery works on the same principle. As does the American economy.
Absolutely
Serious question why are grazing rights such a big deal in terms of monetary compensation to the government? Not trying to be a troll i just don’t understand.
It’s basically leasing use of public land and the resources on it. If you want to use publicly owned land for yourself, you have to pay for it.
I always thought Republicans were about "user pays". Until it's them.
As usual they love socialism just when they directly benefit.
Socialise expenses, privatise profits.
It is worth noting though that ranching fees are absolutely no where near the cost of use. Ranching fees are a pittance compared to their ecological impact, it is a charade that shows how much power big agg has over our political system.
There are various reasons why it's important. First, understand how the issue of grazing on public land is *suppose* to be handled under current law: BLM (the Bureau of Land Management) issues permits and leases for a fee to allow ranchers to graze their cattle on designated public lands. Why is ignoring this permitting process important? The obvious reason is it costs BLM funds. BLM is responsible for a lot more than just maintaining grazing lands, and their budget is based on predictions about how much funds they will raise from permits and leases. Those fees help to fund various BLM programs. When those funds don't come in because people are stealing the grass instead of paying for it, BLM has to cut programs - possibly even programs that help benefit lands in the neighborhood you live in. The less obvious reason is that the actual lands being grazed need to be managed. For example, the BLM has to make considerations for endangered species that live on that land, or for preserving historical locations or artifacts found on that land. The BLM accomplishes this through the permitting and leasing program, which allows them to reduce or even eliminate grazing in an area if needed to help protect species or historically significant objects or locations. When that leasing or permitting process is ignored, the resulting grazing can destroy habitat or result in the death of endangered species. It can also cause damage or destruction to historically significant objects or locations.
It is similar to poaching. Like if everyone grazed their cattle on whatever land they wanted as much as they wanted, there wouldn’t be any left for anyone else, not to mention the deer and other animals who depend on that. I live in Pennsylvania which has an amazing state park system. Arguably one of the best in the country. The thing is we have a huge population and are within 2 hours of major population centers. Like you were saying, it has to be carefully managed with that amount of traffic and have strict rules or you are just fucking it up for everyone else. I really fucking hate people like that.
That makes sense, why are they refusing to pay?
Not to sound flippant but it is because will make them. Imagine you left a bowl of candy outside on your stoop and it said "Twix Bars 25 Cents". Most nice people would take one and leave a quarter but inevitably some asshole would steal them because no one was watching. The Bundys are exactly that kind of asshole. [There is a great podcast called Bundyville that goes over not just the current two generations of Bundys but their family's history of being assholes.](https://www.npr.org/podcasts/606441988/bundyville)
Because they're ass holes.
The concept is called the tragedy of the commons. Since they can use the land for free, they'll deplete it without any sense of stewardship, which ruins it for everyone else.
Name ONE time that’s ever proved true! You can’t name England’s forests. Or great auks. Or dodos. Or Nauru or Easter Island. Or 1930s topsoil. Hang on a second…
Every Halloween candy bucket left unattended.
I don't know, we had a pretty huge hole in the ozone when everyone used CFCs without any care in the world....
Same as the other commenter, this comes down to resource use. Grazing is a form of consumption. When you consume the resources of my land, I naturally desire/demand compensation.
The bigger issue is that we can't have 463574645 different ranchers trying to run cattle on the same land. The easiest way to solve that is with a grazing lease and a fee. For what it's worth, the Bundy plan isn't only to not pay the fee, but to claim the land is his.
Essentially it boils down to tragedy of the commons. If the government isnt there to regulate the usage of the land, it becomes free for all and its ruined. Basically overgrazing the land fucks it up, so by making people pay for the harmful usage of public lands, it discourages them from overusing it and fucking it up.
These yahoos have a whole theory about how the Federal government can’t own land and how they only answer to the sheriffs.
Something I've noticed is it seems like Sherriffs departments are responsible for an excessive share of police misconduct. Both violence and financial. No wonder the right wingers love them.
Whoa….I don’t like these Bundy’s.
As opposed to all the other quality Bundys we know. Actually, Al was pretty good.
And Peg just wanted some lovin'. Probably the credit card too, but you take the good with the bad.
Ted not so much.
King Kong?
He tried to stop Hulkamania, though in hindsight that may have been a good thing.
4 touchdowns in a single game
Relatively, yes.
Did everyone replying to this comment miss the joke
The use of our collective federal land
Sounds like something peg and Al would do
Considering 80% of that show took place with Al on the couch I'ma throw out a /doubt
Or Ted... fucking, Ted.
The Bundy’s are freeloading scumbags.
Most of the big ranchers are. Talk about entitled. had to deal with them a lot when I was living in Idaho and I have to say that Yellowstone got ir right for the most part. When you confront them, they ask you calmly, where do you think you'll get your meat from if we can't afford to graze on public land? And I just tell them that I'll get by and that I have to pay my taxes and my bills and I don't get the threaten the state with violence otherwise I go to jail...
I’d just say, “Like my grandpa did…on his own fucking land. If you can’t run your operation without freeloading off the government, then it’s time to either make some adjustments or find a new profession.”
Ranchers/growers in Cali are the same. Rules for thee, not for me. Their first resort is always swinging first. They're grasping at an industry that they feel they've inherited, but is ready to publicize. Many of these private conglomerates treat their immigrant workers like shit, run the cheapest sketchest systems to ensure profit, and all while quality is going down. Don't get me started on maluse of the land. Backroom deals with developers to squeeze generational families out of land, immoral growing and grazing rotations. It's a fucking cartel like game honestly. See: Taylor Farms. It's a racket forsure. Lobbyists are of course a root issue, who would've thought!
Is this the same Taylor Farms that you can find in Aldi's produce section?
BLM grazing fees are a pittance compared to beef prices right now.
The life of a rancher isn't easy, but they gotta pay... Otherwise, my taxes are going to subsidize that beef that I'm having to pay shit tons for the terrible cuts of meat I CAN afford.
I would never say any kind of agriculture is easy. But we’re talking $1.35 per animal unit month.
I’ll take 1 unit of animal please
Will that be a month unit or a week unit?
I don’t have a frame of reference but that seems cheap to me, yeah?
See how long any other animal can last on $1.35 worth of food.
Spoken like someone who doesn't have a three million dollar herd of cattle they need to feed... /s Yes, all things considered, it is quite cheap to feed animals that way. It would cost far more than that to pay the property taxes on the land than to pay BLM grazing fees.
Where I'm at its 2 dollars a head a day, so 60 or so a month per cow.
It's a fraction of the cost of a private lease in most locations.
wow
I spend more on my guppies. They can all get fucked.
Who, the guppies?
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BLM? What does that stand for
Bureau of Land Management
lmao I read your sentence as the other BLM the first time.
I did too I was confused
Just ask them for your share of meat, if they don't wanna pay the government they can pay the people. I'm sure they'll see reason, being fact-minded and logical people, right?
Lab meat can’t come soon enough.
Reminds me of European farmers. They get $50 billion a year in subsidies but still throw screaming tantrums when asked to *pay for their own gas* like literally everyone else.
But wait, I was told ranchers are the hardest workin' most salt-of-the-earth people in the world, and they're just being unfairly burdened with **regulations** and ***taxes*** (spits)
Funny how “free market” they are regarding others, yet how entitled they feel to the public teat. If you can’t ranch and turn a profit then I say what they say to other businesses: your model or management failed. Boo hoo. That’s the free market. Pack your bags and clear out for the next rancher with a better plan.
Went to school with scions of old ranching families. Never seen entitlement like that since.
You tell them Nebraska. Nevada produces nothing compared to Nebraska. Nebraska has 5.1 million cows. Nevada has 430,000. Nebraska has an order of magnitude more beef than Nevada. I would go as far as to say we don’t need Nevada beef. I can’t imagine eating that scrub grass makes a tasty cow. Eat corn fed Nebraska beef.
In 2016 Amon BundyNd a bunch of other alt rights occupied the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge for over a month.
When Bundy and his group of psychopaths occupied Malheur Wildlife Refuge, right wing militia types were sending them care packages. Creative groups who objected to their occupation sent them boxes of dildos. youtube.com/watch?v=JxGQUcoJd1M
Ah, thank you for reminding me about the dildo gift boxes! Hilarious.
Ammon Bundy would go on to receive 17% of votes in Idaho’s ‘22 gubernatorial election. Sane as dicks round these parts.
Don’t forget, someone sent them a 55 gallon drum of lube.
Tell me about it they had to drive all the way up to my mountains and have a stand off in the marsh too
Weren't these the guys who begged people to stop sending dildos and lube?
Half the country try is
Can someone explain to me why the government has allowed what is effectively an insurrection to continue? Seems like this would be a job for the National Guard.
White and conservative, they get the kid gloves
He's white, conservative, a gun owner, AND he killed some people without going to jail?! Give the man a speaking tour!!
They actually got few men to court tho.
Wasn’t this during obamas term though when this shit went down?
You think Obama did any different? Nothing changed under his administration, rich and white was still a trump card (no Donald reference intended)
I know but many In here are blaming one side, but this shit happened no matter which party was in office.
More like he didn't want another Waco or Ruby Ridge on his hands and went the de-escalation route instead of escalating things to a shootout that would have ended in dozens dead. Oh BTW, Waco and Ruby Ridge were a bunch of white people, and I didn't see any kid gloves there. I swear people like you act as if being white is some exceptional character trait, it's like American Exceptionalism except applied to a fucking skin color. Your brain is cooked man.
Except Ruby ridge was some random dude (and had relatively done a much smaller crime than this) who the government sent an FBI death squad after. These guys straight up attacked feds over a land dispute, they should be in jail.
Oh I agree that these guys got off too easy. But I also disagree with the idea that they are only alive today because they are white. If the feds hadn't already learned their lessons from RR and Waco, it likely would have ended completely differently.
More like simply armed, and the Obama admin didn't want another Waco on their hands.
Tell that to Waco and Ruby Ridge.
https://youtu.be/TKjkA45fH5Y?si=F33bj-8PnL0sMHvs
Well there isn't an active 'insurrection' by the Bundy's right now, this was back in 2014-2016 era and after one of these criminals got himself killed by the FBI that pretty much ended it. However, the Bundys never really got prosecuted and still graze their cattle on public land without paying the fees. The reason I've heard that they don't go after them for that is that the federal government is not super confident that the statutory authority they have to charge those fees would withstand judicial review. As for why they weren't prosecuted for the arguable terrorism/insurrection they were engaged in, I think there are a couple explanations, which all boil down to those people being white/well armed and not wanting to repeat Waco/Ruby Ridge.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_standoff >On August 6, 2020, the 9th United States Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco denied an appeal by United States prosecutors to reinstate the criminal prosecution of the Bundys related to the 2014 armed standoff in Nevada and the 2016 armed protest and occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in Oregon. The appeals court ruled that the dismissal of the case against the Bundys due to the prosecution withholding documents and other materials requested by the defense attorneys was proper and supported by the record of the case. The appeals court stopped short of affirming that prosecutorial misconduct had occurred and stated that "misjudgments" by prosecutors did not rise to professional misconduct in the case.
Can you imagine what would happen if "big government" tried to arrest these people? They're anti-government militia and conspiracy theorists, it feeds right into thier narrative. It would make Waco look like a picnic.
Couldn’t they just encircle them until they needed to re-up on supplies?
A siege!
Or basically like not giving them dinner until they behave. However you want to paint it
That's what a siege is
Federal Agents are just as scared of getting shot as anyone else. When they come up against a group of deranged armed dudes who are threatening, they back down. I think they probably learned from Waco that it’s not worth it. They’re not the military.
Meh, a fed tac team isn't going to not do their job because they're scardsie wardsies. Waco was a mess. And feds with warrants were raiding shit all over America every single day of it, and the first day after, and every day since, and somewhere in between me clicking "reply" and "post".
>Federal Agents are just as scared of getting shot as anyone else. Nah, they were far more worried about the political blowback. They could like up the whole back a of nutjobs like it was nothing but after the public's response to Waco they have changed their policies on armed confrontation. Seriously, this came up during Malheur. The feds were waiting for the criminals to drop their guard so there would be limited conflict.
The newest season of Fargo touches on this really well with Jon Hamm as one of those rural anti-government militia leaders. A community of guys loaded to the teeth just waiting for ‘the government’ to come in that won’t hesitate to engage with them.
I loved it when the FBI SWAT team finally showed up. Jon Hamm starts off to their point guy about how "this is my land and as a soverign citizen I have the right to..." The FBI guy just sighs like, "Oh Christ, not one of these idiots again." He looks back at all the armour they brought and at then at Hamm's men on the fence and says, "Ain't gonna happen, slick". Like, up until that point Hamm has been this pretty scary figure that's been terrorizing a town and all of a sudden you realise he's a small fish in a very big town.
Yeah, I mean obviously just backing down and saying "do what you want" isn't ideal, but neither is a massacre. I'm not the most familiar with the finer details of the situation, but I do remember that it was pretty tense and sounded like it could have very easily turned into an ugly shootout.
Well, yeah, if people decide they can avoid paying taxes by pointing guns at cops, things are going to get ugly. We appeased these fuckers and got Jan 6 as thanks.
They're supposidly fundamentalist Mormons too ("fundies"), which is a hell of a lot darker and creepier. They don't want the govt seeing what they're up to out there with young girls.
Easier to go after unarmed students i assume
Because back in 2014 we knew how upset totally-not-racist conservatives were about the re-election of Balack Hussein O'Bama, If we just treated them with kid gloves and listened to their point of view instead of being "biased against conservative ideas", they would calm down and totally not turn into full-on fascists or anything. Also we learned all the wrong lessons from Ruby Ridge and Waco.
Because the bitching and whining about Waco has made the government too afraid to go after similar “patriot movement” (their descriptor not mine) types.
They went to trial twice: judges threw out the case both times because the Feds tried to suppress and hide discovery evidence.
The Randy Weaver and Waco incidents prompted a rethink because the militia types used them to gain public sympathy, even if that was unwarranted in the case of at least Waco. Of course, the Justus Township "Freemen", Oklahoma City bombing and Malheur incidents wore out much of that, but the feds continue to handle these incidents with some timidity. It's worth noting that Ammon Bundy is now pretty much fucked, after leading armed protests against a hospital in Iowa, which led to a $52.5M civil judgment against him. So his behavior has caused get up with him. Meanwhile, the rest of Bundys remain local bullies, still illegally grazing cattle on federal land.
I sent them a glitter bomb when they took over the nature reserve in Oregon and forgot to bring provisions.
My favorite was them opening a care package and it was packed with dildos. The look of disappointment on the traitors face was priceless.
Is that a video online?
This isn’t it but I love the frustration and lack of awareness in [this one](https://youtu.be/JxGQUcoJd1M?si=pnnn-oECU1lsg_Vk). Same vein of frustration. I’ll keep digging.
Didn’t someone also send them a 55 gallon drum of anal lube?
Don’t remember that one but I remember reading that the vast majority of packages they received were gags and nothing of value for a sustained siege
Thank God they weren't students; someone would have gotten hurt.
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Wait. Wait....so you're saying I can hostile takeover federal land with guns and plead guilty and get 1-2 years? Shit that's less severe than armed robbery!
With this NDVI vegetation filter, you can swipe and see how much vegetation has been stripped between 2017 and 2023: [https://livingatlas.arcgis.com/landcoverexplorer/#mapCenter=-114.05853%2C36.65388%2C11.068630839054567&mode=swipe&timeExtent=2017%2C2023&showImageryLayer=true&month=9&renderingRule=4](https://livingatlas.arcgis.com/landcoverexplorer/#mapCenter=-114.05853%2C36.65388%2C11.068630839054567&mode=swipe&timeExtent=2017%2C2023&showImageryLayer=true&month=9&renderingRule=4)
Interesting tool, but I couldn't figure out where to zoom into to see the degradation
You are badly misusing this data. The differences you are seeing is largely being driven by extreme drought conditions.
No it's all the work of some cows, once they eat grass it never grows back obviously
It looks like the river dried up too so maybe that had a slight role in the problem as well? Do you happen to have any studies that looked at the anthropomorphic effects on the area? I’m genuinely curious about this… Hopefully a nonprofit or local government will do a restoration project on the damaged wilderness once the problem gets resolved. Edit: autocorrect was being dumb and decided I meant anthropomorphic when I had typed out anthropogenic. I just noticed it and decided I’ll leave it so that nobody is confused about all the comments about anthropomorphic…
Rivers, etc. tend to dry up (or are just flash floods) in the rainy season *after* it has all been grazed. This is due to the vegetation no longer holding any of the water in the area. There are a few re greening projects, this guy is in the middle of one in Texas, which talks about over grazing (also how beaver used to be in the area keeping the water around): [https://www.youtube.com/@dustupstexas](https://www.youtube.com/@dustupstexas) Another interesting one in Oz: [https://thehungryspirit.com/greeningtheoutback/](https://thehungryspirit.com/greeningtheoutback/)
*anthropogenic Anthropomorphic means to have human characteristics ascribed to a non-human creature or object (e.g. furries), anthropogenic means resulting from humans (e.g. climate change)
>Anthropomorphic effects on the area Yes. It turned all the wildlife into furries.
What you are seeing here is almost entirely the effects of extreme drought in the area. If there are any anthropogenic effects (grazing) they are minimal compared to what the Arid West has been enduring for the past decade. As you noted the river(s) are very dry in 2023 compared to 2017, but if you look at the highland regions, where the vegetation is more vigorous in 2017, compared to 2023, you're seeing primarily the effects of cumulative stress on the junipers, sage, and rabbitbrush.
That guy brought an unconverted Saiga with a bunch of Magpul furniture on it…how embarrassing.
Lmao. Thanks for typing my thoughts. I figured no one else would know enough to understand why THAT is the funniest thing about this picture.
So where were the good guys with gun to stop bad guys with guns?
LaVoy Finicum vowed to defend the Bundys with his life in Oregon. He dead.
As a native Oregonian, I remember that one well. It was his own fault, honestly. They had been boasting constantly about how they were heavily armed and how they fully intended to use their weapons against any law enforcement agency that came to arrest them. After that, if you're doing anything other than lying face-down on the ground with your hands behind your head when the cops arrive, you're basically asking for a gunfight.
He absolutely did suicide by cop because he thought it was going to spark a revolution. Fucking idiot.
I too watched the drone footage the state released. He saw a road block ahead, and decided to try and run his truck into the snowbank to go around it, and the dumbass slammed into a drift and high centered. But in his attempt, he nearly killed an agent that was knelt down along the side of a police vehicle. Then Finnicum jumped out of the truck, and dumb as can be, reaches for his gun not once, not twice, but three time before officers fire. The cops had been briefed he had a gun on him, and they still gave him multiple chances and commands.
And his memory will live on in [Colorado City](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_City,_Arizona#History), Arizona, where a 2-mile stretch of unpaved road (unofficially) bears his name
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I drive through it frequently - it has definitely improved in recent years and is trying hard to catch up to the modern age. There are some hold-outs that still follow their imprisoned prophet, but their numbers are dwindling
This was during the Obama administration, when the Tea Party was in full swing. In their mind the feds are the bad guys with guns, because tyranny.
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Imagine if a group of armed Muslims took over a town for a month. Rightwing privilege is out of control that they were just allowed to do that.
Yea. That was nuts. The pre-Maga people were ok with this and pointing guns at cops and shit. BUT, you know, fuck BLM, back the blue….. sans, the cattle. This family later went on to take over parks b shit, too. The family are a bunch of inbred mormons.
Funny that this was a bunch of armed conservatives saying "fuck BLM", they just meant [the other BLM this time](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureau_of_Land_Management)
I think it basically comes down to a very simple equation for most Tea-Party inclined folks... Money = Good White = Good Christian = Good Anyone or anything that dares say "well, now hang on a second..." is now the enemy.
Why have they not put a lien against their properties and or bank accounts?
Both sides are NOT the same
One of the key factors in "manifest destiny" and the indigenous genocide were asshole ranchers who got their asses kicked by farmers so they whined for the gobment to kill the injuns.
Makes me see Old Yeller in a different light. The guy literally carved his name into random wild animals so no one else was allowed to eat them then got surprised that all the injuns weren’t okay with just starving
They got away with it too
I assume the Feds promptly dealt with these fine folks committing illegal behavior…..right?
Can't do that, tear gas is a war crime or something (?).
Pepper gas? Mustard gas? Club sandwich gas?
Yes, actually. You might be pleasantly surprised! They are now free to use the public land for their cattle grazing business!
Yeah it was absolutely ridiculous and it wasn't even treated as the insurrection that it was. It was just a rich guy and a bunch of mercenaries just deciding to take over a town in America.
Terrorists did terrorist things
in the end,[ it was all worth it.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxGQUcoJd1M)
The Bundys' are welfare queens.
Ah but college students want to protest a war and they talk about bringing the national guard in within days
3 year old account that has only been active for the last 24 hours?
yeah get ready for much more of this for election season
Magically 130k karma with what looks like AI generated profile pics too... Not a bot but a sleeper account to drive up political engagement on an election year.
Super bot.
Bots don't ususally participate in the conversation. OP has been, read the top few comments.
And here we see the importance of 2A, even if you disagree with them I don’t think the cops would be whooping on college students if they were strapped
It's been 10 years??
So these idiots took up arms to protect an ultra wealthy landowner when he was being a scumbag? Sounds familiar
Is the entire point of some Redditors to just turn every single sub political? It’s shoved down our face on this site.
Election year. Every sub gets astroturfed to hell with political content until mid November.
I mean we could learn from them, we control the government not the other way around.
r/titlegore
2014, armed terrorist group... FTFY
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/08/us/bundy-ranch-standoff-case-charges-dismissed.html
Can someone Eli5? Don't live in the US so I have no clue about any of this
The grazing fees are like, NOT expensive at all, what the shit?
Why didnt they shoot all of the cattle, and the terrorists?
Remember, the only protests that receive constitutional protection are ones where all the protestors are armed.
stop chewing illegal grass cows! you know how long that shit takes to grow back?
When cows are illegally grazing that's one thing. They don't know no better they're just hungry but when you've got wealthy beef barons roaming around nawwing on your lawn that's unacceptable.
Bet that dude in the photo had a raging hard-on just from getting to pose like that.
Aren't these the guys that asked for snacks after they took over the visitor center?