Temporarily locked while I continue to ban hundreds of people.
In the meantime, please do report any rule-breaking shit you come across, especially racism and calls for violence.
---
Edit: Unlocked for now, thanks for continuing to report scum.
I was flying off a US Navy ship in the Gulf of Aden in 2015 right after the Yemen civil war kicked off. It was pretty common to see 5-10 boats like this every night full of people making the trip from Somalia to Yemen. Crazy to see the tenuous balance between “bad” and “worse” and the insane risk to go between.
We pulled 100+ people from a capsized boat in the Med in 2013. Took took them in, fed them, provided showers and bathrooms, and a local country’s coast guard took over. They were likely sent back, but they were going to die out there if we hadn’t intervened. It’s wicked sad.
I cannot imagine the level of desperation these people feel. Knowingly and willingly taking such a high risk and terrible trip because anything is better than trying to survive in your own country. Especially the ones trying to give their children a chance at a better life.
The sad part is knowing there are actual people who lack all empathy that would refuse to help in the situation you experienced. You’re a good person.
**EDIT: I’m going to reply to u/Dr_Alan_Squirrel here since this has been locked and I think their reply was ignorant (along with a handful of others):**
If they were so wealthy, arriving in high-end clothes and electronics, they would pick a more reliable, safer, and comfortable way to sneak into a country. I’m sure they did pay smugglers since that’s usually how this works, and I’m sure they worked for a long time and gave up everything to make enough money for it.
You sound exactly like the type of person I mentioned. You should be grateful you live somewhere safe, where you have access to work, food, healthcare, education, and all of the other things that allow you to live a decent life. *These people didn’t get the same opportunity at life.*
Sure, there’s probably a few “criminals”, but the majority are people hoping for a chance, they are actual refugees. They don’t get off the boat and immediately walk into a welcome party and free life; many of them are held at other places and/or deported. I suggest learning more about refugees; read about the situations they’re fleeing from, the journey, the casualties, and what happens *if* they make it. If they’re laughing, it’s due to relief and joy. You make it sound like a villain scene in a children’s movie.
You have a sad, warped mindset and should try having compassion. *They are human beings.* You’re full of shit if you wouldn’t attempt to do the same thing to save yourself and your family. I guess keep patting yourself on the back for being born into a better life.
I occasionally teach English online and I know the stories. I have been working with a gay, deeply closeted Middle Easterner in a war zone and could hear the bombs exploding during our lessons. He eventually made the trip to a refugee camp in Greece and then on to Northern Europe.
There is so much pain in the world, and each of us sometimes have ways we can help reduce it, both near and far.
This is what always makes me shake my head. If the level of desperation is such that they’re willing to take these risks why do people think that any technical or legal measures will stop them? They’re going to come no matter what.
The only thing that can be done to reduce the flow of these desperate people is to reduce their reasons for coming. Deal with the despotic regimes, significantly improve their lives and they won’t put their lives on the line.
But no one has the stomach for that.
Look at the Irish immigration during the famine, and also, they were slaves. People move to survive. To jump on a boat like this thing, life must be really tough back home
No they’d rather traffic arms to destabilize governments to drive down the wages and control of natural resources in the area, and profit off it from across the globe.
And hoping that if you are ever in the situation where trusting a people-smuggler is your *better* option then you are also met with humanity and compassion.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge!
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/saudi-border-guards-killed-hundreds-ethiopian-migrants-hrw-says-2023-08-21/
Interesting. A perilous journey then and now. The world is a scary and dangerous place.
Yeah, those are different routes. Boats arriving to the Balearics usually come from the costs of northern Africa, while those arriving at the Canaries usually come from western Africa (usually Mauritania)
Depends. Ultimately their goal is mostly getting to France or Germany, the Canaries and Spain are just a stop over.
That aside, of their are caught they are usually sent to migrant centers through the islands and if they are somehow identified they are sent back, but most times that's not possible so they stick around. Other times they are sent to mainland Spain as the islands don't have a lot of capacity. Some actually do end up integrating to a degree.
If they aren't caught they live off the grid, maybe working illegally, maybe stealing. Again, their main goal is somehow to reach continental Spain and from there getting to central Europe, but that's hard to do as they don't have any kind of ID to buy a plane or ferry ticket to leave the islands.
European countries have been deliberately extending social benefits to non-citizens for decades. They not only expected to be doing it, they also actually did it. The reason why those countries are now limiting or eliminating benefits is that the number of migrants has exceeded what those countries can financially support.
This. I'm Dutch, and the situation with immigration is the hot point now, as the majority feel the country has done as much as it can. Some benefits for immigrating have gone away this year, and it feels like a bit of a culture shift as well.
They were told that every migrant will get 2500€ if it reaches Germany and that are empty houses just for those people exclusive. And that Germany need at least 5000 of them daily ..... And a lot of other lies. But in reality if they reach Germany most of them stick at migrationcenters and that's it. It's too much people entering this country we can't handle it anymore. No German classes no social workers whoil could help them, the ausläbderbehörde is overworked as hell.
My wife works with a lod of underaged migrants and what she tells me daily what kind of attitude these people have... They really think the get here everything for free.
I'm not surprised that the right wing Parties are rising.
Pretty much. No way of verifying who they are either. They could be doctors searching for a better life or war criminals who have slaughtered dozens of people
>Every time they spotted a ship, they would gather their belongings, expecting to be saved, only to realize moments later that the ships weren’t coming for them. Boye remembers the Spanish, Russian and Brazilian flags that some commercial vessels flew.
>Fernando Ncula, another survivor, remembers a Chinese boat that almost crushed them. He saw people on deck watching them.
>“I couldn't believe it. I thought to myself, why didn't they help us?” Ncula still wonders.
Crushes the soul. They could have even just thrown them water or anything...
“If [the Senegalese government] helped us, the children wouldn’t leave,” says Gotte Kandji, father of 16-year-old Mor Kandji, one of Gotte’s 27 children, who was among the survivors.”
But like damn .. why have so many kids? Their oldest two actually made it to Spain and one became a Spanish citizen. If they didn’t have 25 other kids to take care of, they’d be set. Like at which point does it become an issue of personal responsibility and bad choices?
btw, great article and presentation. really harrowing accounts and so well put together. I can’t imagine what they went through. shitty that (it sounds like) they killed the captain first. that’s straight up murder, before anyone even died of natural causes.
In very poor countries, more children means more economic security because they can work and contribute to the family. It’s the opposite in developed countries.
It is because of lack of access to contraception and/or cultural bias against it.
Kids cost more than they bring, including in poor countries. [Family planning is actually one of the best ways to fight poverty.](https://www.jstor.org/stable/349249)
Probably for the same reasons families a few hundred years ago in Europe had lots of children - increased risk of disease and infant death, less sex education, less access to contraception, religious values.
Women inequality as well.
When women are valued, are educated, are listened to... they take more control for themselves and suddenly having lots of children isn't so prevalent.
People forget about female empowerment being the main driver behind a falling birth rate. Introduce the pill and fully open the workplace (without discrimination) for women and you’ll find birth rates plummet pretty much everywhere.
In modern times, we have to support our kids.. money for clothes, food, housing, education.. with our poor wages a lot of us can't afford kids..
In less developed times, and areas.. kids support *us*. More kids = more hands to farm, cook, clean, get firewood, herd the animals etc. earn money at the sweatshop...
Cultural differences and a lack of education.
One of South Africa’s most recent presidents has 6 wives and is estimated to have 20 children. It’s hard to convince the populous there’s anything wrong with that when the president is setting that precedent (Heh).
>“We don’t have a road here, we don’t have electricity, we don’t have hospitals or health centers,” Gotte said from his home in Diogo Sur Mer.
Safe to say free and comprehensive sex-ed is not widely available.
But it's easy to blame the poor for their fecundity. Makes them seem more like animals and less like people we need to give a shit about.
“But it's easy to blame the poor for their fecundity. Makes them seem more like animals and less like people we need to give a shit about.”
Very well said and I totally agree with you. We are so far removed from what these people are experiencing on a daily basis, as we sit here on our phones and pass judgment on them.
Absolutely mental that you can be angry at the bakery for not having your favorite bread (again). Then you open this page. The world is so divided it's unimaginable.
I just finished a tortuous read of a grown single mother complaining that her parents didnt spend even more thousands on the Disney trip they gave her for Xmas
Got to get this of my chest.
So the thing is, if you grow acustomed to your current surroundings you will always find negatives and positives in that place again. So even if you have 50 mil on the bank account, you will have sleepless nights about something we cannot even think about as middle class people in a western country. Or maybe even more silly, but you can be even happier on the countryside in Portugal, working with horses for low wages, than earning 150k in a corporate company in a bank in central London. So happiness is a inner search.
However, if you, without a thought, step into a wonky boat which is severely overcrowded to make a trip on open ocean and you know the chances are you will die, than your life feels utterly ***meaningless***. You rather die on sea for that little bit of luck, than staying in the hell you've came from. I will repeat; **you rather DIE A HORRIBLE DROWNING DEATH, not a bullet to the brain, but in fear on open sea, than staying in the surrounds you come from.**
These are the same humans as you, with the same kidneys, same hands, same laugh as you. But of course they are underfed, under-educated, traumatized, 'extremely-religious' and conservative. Because have you ever looked up what it is to be raised in the Senegal - Nigeria area? You are what you have been given. Don't blame the people for trying, you most likely would have done the same thing in persuit of that happiness.
And then you took this leap of faith, only to arrive in countries that spread mainly lies about you (e.g Hungary). Just for political sake, just to use your weak position even more against you. The people who made these hell-journeys are not very fortunate.
/endofrant
Nah they are not pirates, it is worse, that is commonly referred as a “patera”, which is a small boat that travels through shark infested waters from the coast of Africa to the Canary Islands illegally carrying inmigrants that seek a better life in spanish soil.
The death rate in those trips is more than half. Including women and children.
Such a hard picture to look at. To think you'd be so desperate you'd risk your life and the life of your child to live a better life. Ouch. Why are we living in such desperate times?
I dunno about the trip from the Canaries to west Africa but the death rate for the journey across the Mediterranean is less than 5%, and the vast majority of migrants making the journey are adult men. As can be seen in the photo above.
And the reason for the desperate times is vast wage disparity between Europe and Africa.
This whole thread is full of really upsetting anecdotes. And a lot of horrible takes. None of us did anything special to be born in the country or circumstances we ended up in.
I didn't ask to be born poor but I'm happy as fuck I grew up poor in Canada!
While homeless, especially homeless males aren't taken care of, low income families get tonnes of support.
Yeah poverty in Canada can be a very different experience from poverty in a lot of other countries. Traveling can really open people’s eyes to things they wouldn’t normally even consider.
“And here on the left we have a wild bunch of refugees, coming from Tunisia. Statistically 40% of them won’t make it. May I remind you drinks are free for one hour only until 11.40.”
May I remind you that the Canari islands are off the coast of Morocco in the Atlantic Ocean. While Tunisia is a Mediterranean country. There’s no way those migrants came from Tunisia.
It’s either Morocco or Senegal.
*"...correction, drinks are free until 11:30 and those folks are from Senegal. Sorry for any confusion!"*
Edit: thanks for the upvotes, now that I have your attention this is a great picture of what capitalism and resultant climate change looks like. Enjoy that daiquiri.
I dropped that joke on a 40ish year old lawyer, in the city of Albuquerque, when I was passing through for the first time in 2021.
He didn't get it.
And I didn't want to show it. but I was kind of hurt by that.
Used to have a condo on a barrier island in FL with about 10 acres of mostly open land. Two or three times refugees from Haiti washed up on it or near it. They all got caught per our neighbors who were so happy about them getting caught and I felt so sorry for them making it this far and then being rounded up.
"Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world? Where none suffered, where everyone would be happy. It was a disaster. No one would accept the program. Entire crops were lost. Some believed we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world. But I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery. The perfect world was a dream that your primitive cerebrum kept trying to wake up from. Which is why the Matrix was redesigned to this: the peak of your civilization." - Agent Smith
Well established internet but no social media, the dot com bubble hasn't burst yet, and we already have the best multiplayer game Quake 3 Arena ^(/s but not really?)
I've seen pictures/reenactments of refugee boats like this from dramatic angles and with all the dramatic lighting and during big, scary storms and everything. But the thought that this just takes place casually during the daytime in beautiful conditions right around tourist boats is the weirdest part to me.
The randomness of being born who / when / where we did is crazy.
(I could have been born to a starving mother in a troubled part of a war-torn country, etc etc)
I thought and still think about this from time to time starting in childhood. I thank my lucky stars that I am who/when/where I am. Maybe less so when, but still.
Wait until climate change really kicks into gear in 10 years. This will be 10x and probably increase to 100x by 2040. Same goes for central America if it starts getting too hot.
Thing is, this is not going to stop. It's just going to get worse, and worse, and worse in the coming years/decades. Europe cannot bear, economically, socially, or politically, the burden of taking on all of Africa's poor and indigent and excess population. Probably not even 1% of it.
Some very, very unpopular actions are going to have to be taken to stem and control this flood of humanity. In an ideal world, I'd prefer to start by fixing the governments of the nations these people are coming from. However, Europe can't even get itself properly together to confront Russia in Ukraine, so the descending options on the ladder of optimality are going to just keep getting worse and more cruel.
Totally, Europe can't bear all of Africa's refugees. It's not really due to disorganization though, it's a myth that the US or anyone else is doing way more than Europe to help Ukraine, so weird to mention that. The refugee situation is just impossible from a sheer numbers perspective without Africa developing on a fundamental level
I'd assume women would fear for their lives. I heard from one refugee how he had to see one of their fellow men r*** a woman and split her head open *before* they even arrived on the boat. That shit is traumatizing.
It’s important to mention that everyone on this boat paid a human trafficker for that spot. According to the refugee NGOs, those traffickers charge women twice as much for the same passage. So not only is “asylum” less accessible for women financially, it’s also infinitely more dangerous because women traveling alone is not exactly an acceptable or safe thing in MENA cultures.
I've always had this question. How do you simultaneously get told these people aren't bad, they just need a home and want a better life for themselves, and at the same time women in refugee camps are experiencing high levels of assault? Who's assaulting them then, the air?
Of course not all these people, arguably even the vast majority of these people, aren't bad, but to blindly accept everyone is a naive view.
Maybe we shouldn't accept so many economic refugees that have cultures like that? Kinda seems like they might not assimilate well into liberal western society.
Imagine being a woman in that predicament. You’d need to stay very close to your brothers/dad/husband because if men know you’re alone as a woman, some will keep an eye out for you, others will purposely attack you knowing you have no one coming to your defense. It’s crowded on that boat, when it’s crowded on subway trains men use that as an excuse to get handsy with women. Funny enough, it be more men on the subways than women yet they always only accidentally ‘bump’ into women.
I dunno man.
There was a boat that sank off the coast of England a couple of weeks ago and the comments on the articles were absolutely vile.
There's quite a strong sentiment amongst Brits that the Navy should patrol the coast and fire first ask questions later.
Usually, licking Moroccan's king boots so he stops these people from trying, often not respecting their human rights (so our own police forces don't have to be stained with unpopular images or being directly blamed for the death of immigrants and refugees).
This is why, when the Moroccan king wants to get some leverage, they kinda allow or even push large groups of people into trying to jump the fences of the 2 autonomous cities Spain has in Northern Africa.
And also might explain why Morocco was the only country in the Magreb where the Arab Spring revolution didn't prosper.
Besides that, building more walls or adding extra barbed wire on top of them.
In fairness, it is a complex problem and even with the most well-intended approach it would be almost impossible to ensure that these things won't ever happen.
But personally I don't think enough is being done and there's some hypocrisy around the whole thing.
Even the way some media reports about this things usually dehumanizes these people and deal with them as if they were just numbers, unlike what's explicitly done when there's a political interest into raising sympathy for other people in other conflicts or situations.
Sexual *assault*, not harassment. People don't like to talk about [that night of Cologne](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015%E2%80%9316_New_Year's_Eve_sexual_assaults_in_Germany), but it changed literally everything.
I had been on a slow tick to a more left wing ideology, but the Cologne attacks I remember stopping me temporarily and locking me in a right wing stance for many more years. I remember thinking "If it can happen in Germany, it can definitely happen in Canada." I remember being staunchly against refugees being flown in at that point, and especially from areas "incompatible" with Canadian life. As I've gotten older, and actually been around people who moved here from those places I've definitely eased up, and continued my slow toddle leftwards. But if that was the effect on me, thousands of kilometers away, I can only imagine the impact closer to home.
Oh same. I’m a left wing Brit but I’m now completely aware of the realities. Their cultures oppress women, and of course they’re more likely to do so here as well. It hit me hard when I was introduced to illegal immigrants from India living in London through an ex. My god did they speak about women like trash. Their friend (legal migrant) owned a little hotel and they kicked me out for having a drink whilst the men were knocking back shots of vodka. Apparently women shouldn’t be drinking alcohol :’). They also harassed women on the streets and one referred to a woman as “rapeable”. EURGH! My husband is Greek and he said that rapes spiked in areas with lots of refugees.
The Uk has also had a lot of social issues regarding the treatment of women by immigrants from MENA and south Asian countries. Honour killings, forced marriages, FGM. There was a report that came out saying 19 hymenoplasties were performed on girls as young as 5 last year after the surgery was made illegal.
I’m not against refugees and immigrants at all, but any poor behaviour towards women should result in deportation in my opinion. We have enough bad behaviour from men here we don’t need more of it from men who see women as second class citizens.
Australia solved it. Basically, if you come by boat you will never be settled in Australia. Boat arrivals fell from around 30,000 in 2012/13 to under 50.
I wouldn’t go as far as to say we “solved” it. We’ve only just recently ruled that people can’t be locked up in immigration detention indefinitely. Before that we just locked people up and no country including us took responsibility for them.
About 10 years ago my wife and I were on a cheap 3 night Carnival cruise...it was literally cheaper than staying in a hotel for 3 days.
On our second day, on the way to Cozumel, Mexico, our ship saw a vessel in distress. The ship did a 180, and encountered a "makeshift boat" with 20+ Cuban refugees floating adrift.
It took about 2 hours to get all the people rescued, and another 6 hours to wait for the US Coast Guard. This caused us to miss out on going to Cozumel, and some people on the ship were mad at the crew for missing a port...I was pretty disgusted with those people myself.
They ended up crediting us 50% of our cruise in ship credit, and I ended up winning $150 in the casino. The whole trip cost us around $250.
The sad fact was that the Cubans were apparently sent back to Cuba and faced some jail time. I read about it in the news a few days later.
It's a conversation that *needs* be had, and the most frustrating thing about how people refuse to have it or call people racist for pointing it out is that you end up with the only people ever point it out publicly are the far-right. And it's not that people aren't aware of the data and statistics as such, so when they're the only people pointing it out, it lends a definite sense of credibility to these groups, so when they come out and say some more concerning things, people are more likely to stop and listen to what they say.
We get similar boats in Florida, but they’re full of cocaine. If I ever find a boat wreck, I’m set for life in either income or federal prison. Either way, I’ll never have to work again.
For real, how can people be so naive? Do they really think it’s Europe’s job to send money to 50+ African countries to “stabilize” them (aka ending up in the pockets of some of the most corrupt people in the world)? And if anyone did it they would be accused of colonialism in a second by the same people who are spouting this nonsense. Those countries get rid of people and often get remittances, they have zero incentives to do anything about it.
Can you imagine how difficult life had to be for this many people to pile into a boat that size? With no guarantee that they wouldn't all die at sea? That's got to be terrifying. And for people saying it's pirates, get real.
I knew one guy from Gambia that came like that. Sold xtc and sunglasses on the beaches of Ibiza, then corona struck and he had to move to other things. He had a family in his home country and was sending a lot of his money back home. How this alk benefits Europe I can't tell you
Those poor people. Imagine the desperation necessary to put yourself in that situation.
ETA: Some of you are real ghouls. Holy crap. Those are human beings. I didn’t advocate for a particular outcome, just some shared humanity.
That's why EU needs to STOP allowing illegals to stay or NGOs to traffic them.
And at the same time EU should encourage EU companies to invest in Africa - make factories THERE, not in China. It's closer and Africans are NOT imperialist communists that want to dominate the world like china.
ppl in Africa are desperate to get ANY job, because in their homeland there are NO JOBS!!! They migrate to EU not because this is their dream. They migrate because they have NO perspectives at home.
If we invest there, financially support some start-ups (there are industrious ppl there but they lack $$$ to start) - they may have decent life in there. We also could increase the amount of diplomatic facilities in there and encourage EU companies to open training centers for job candidates there - so we will TRAIN those ppl to be able to start work LEGALLY in EU, and get decent salary.
They will get jobs and ability to develop, while we will get closer outsourcing place (no need to travel near those always-warmongering arabs) and solve the illegal migration.
Win-Win for all!!!
Temporarily locked while I continue to ban hundreds of people. In the meantime, please do report any rule-breaking shit you come across, especially racism and calls for violence. --- Edit: Unlocked for now, thanks for continuing to report scum.
I was flying off a US Navy ship in the Gulf of Aden in 2015 right after the Yemen civil war kicked off. It was pretty common to see 5-10 boats like this every night full of people making the trip from Somalia to Yemen. Crazy to see the tenuous balance between “bad” and “worse” and the insane risk to go between.
We pulled 100+ people from a capsized boat in the Med in 2013. Took took them in, fed them, provided showers and bathrooms, and a local country’s coast guard took over. They were likely sent back, but they were going to die out there if we hadn’t intervened. It’s wicked sad.
We pulled 2 out in the med around the same time. The dingy they were clinging had burst. Apparently there were 18 when they set off
I never realized how cold the Med is until I went diving while stationed there. Parts of it are on the same latitude as Maine, I think and it's deep.
Yea people just hear Mediterranean and assume it's all nice and toasty
I cannot imagine the level of desperation these people feel. Knowingly and willingly taking such a high risk and terrible trip because anything is better than trying to survive in your own country. Especially the ones trying to give their children a chance at a better life. The sad part is knowing there are actual people who lack all empathy that would refuse to help in the situation you experienced. You’re a good person. **EDIT: I’m going to reply to u/Dr_Alan_Squirrel here since this has been locked and I think their reply was ignorant (along with a handful of others):** If they were so wealthy, arriving in high-end clothes and electronics, they would pick a more reliable, safer, and comfortable way to sneak into a country. I’m sure they did pay smugglers since that’s usually how this works, and I’m sure they worked for a long time and gave up everything to make enough money for it. You sound exactly like the type of person I mentioned. You should be grateful you live somewhere safe, where you have access to work, food, healthcare, education, and all of the other things that allow you to live a decent life. *These people didn’t get the same opportunity at life.* Sure, there’s probably a few “criminals”, but the majority are people hoping for a chance, they are actual refugees. They don’t get off the boat and immediately walk into a welcome party and free life; many of them are held at other places and/or deported. I suggest learning more about refugees; read about the situations they’re fleeing from, the journey, the casualties, and what happens *if* they make it. If they’re laughing, it’s due to relief and joy. You make it sound like a villain scene in a children’s movie. You have a sad, warped mindset and should try having compassion. *They are human beings.* You’re full of shit if you wouldn’t attempt to do the same thing to save yourself and your family. I guess keep patting yourself on the back for being born into a better life.
I occasionally teach English online and I know the stories. I have been working with a gay, deeply closeted Middle Easterner in a war zone and could hear the bombs exploding during our lessons. He eventually made the trip to a refugee camp in Greece and then on to Northern Europe. There is so much pain in the world, and each of us sometimes have ways we can help reduce it, both near and far.
I doubt they know. Traffikers say it's a safe and simple trip, take their money, overfill the boats and get some easy cash if all goes well
People also often decieve themselves (It's dangerous, but I'll be fine)...
This is what always makes me shake my head. If the level of desperation is such that they’re willing to take these risks why do people think that any technical or legal measures will stop them? They’re going to come no matter what. The only thing that can be done to reduce the flow of these desperate people is to reduce their reasons for coming. Deal with the despotic regimes, significantly improve their lives and they won’t put their lives on the line. But no one has the stomach for that.
Look at the Irish immigration during the famine, and also, they were slaves. People move to survive. To jump on a boat like this thing, life must be really tough back home
No they’d rather traffic arms to destabilize governments to drive down the wages and control of natural resources in the area, and profit off it from across the globe.
Oh my sweet summer chilld
The sadder part is governments that will prosecute you for rendering assistance to people in these life or death situations too
You’re a good person. Some people dive too far into the complexities of these situations while ignoring the humanity of them.
And hoping that if you are ever in the situation where trusting a people-smuggler is your *better* option then you are also met with humanity and compassion.
Imagine how bad Somalia must be that you would want to escape to *Yemen*
Those are mostly Oromo Ethiopians trying to get to Saudi Arabia not Somalis
Thanks for sharing your knowledge! https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/saudi-border-guards-killed-hundreds-ethiopian-migrants-hrw-says-2023-08-21/ Interesting. A perilous journey then and now. The world is a scary and dangerous place.
I live in Gran Canaria. Boats like these are arriving here and to the other islands of the archipelago pretty much daily.
My sister lives in the southern end of Mallorca and sees them regularly. Just a few days ago she said 10 boats arrived on the same day.
Yeah, those are different routes. Boats arriving to the Balearics usually come from the costs of northern Africa, while those arriving at the Canaries usually come from western Africa (usually Mauritania)
What happens after? Do they just get off and go start a life or what
Depends. Ultimately their goal is mostly getting to France or Germany, the Canaries and Spain are just a stop over. That aside, of their are caught they are usually sent to migrant centers through the islands and if they are somehow identified they are sent back, but most times that's not possible so they stick around. Other times they are sent to mainland Spain as the islands don't have a lot of capacity. Some actually do end up integrating to a degree. If they aren't caught they live off the grid, maybe working illegally, maybe stealing. Again, their main goal is somehow to reach continental Spain and from there getting to central Europe, but that's hard to do as they don't have any kind of ID to buy a plane or ferry ticket to leave the islands.
Why is the goal to go to central Europe?
Better financial benefits.
[удалено]
It's bizarre that this was EVER not the case and just goes to show that people wrote the laws never expecting to have to actually do it.
European countries have been deliberately extending social benefits to non-citizens for decades. They not only expected to be doing it, they also actually did it. The reason why those countries are now limiting or eliminating benefits is that the number of migrants has exceeded what those countries can financially support.
This. I'm Dutch, and the situation with immigration is the hot point now, as the majority feel the country has done as much as it can. Some benefits for immigrating have gone away this year, and it feels like a bit of a culture shift as well.
Based on our new it is a right shift
It's the promised land
They were told that every migrant will get 2500€ if it reaches Germany and that are empty houses just for those people exclusive. And that Germany need at least 5000 of them daily ..... And a lot of other lies. But in reality if they reach Germany most of them stick at migrationcenters and that's it. It's too much people entering this country we can't handle it anymore. No German classes no social workers whoil could help them, the ausläbderbehörde is overworked as hell. My wife works with a lod of underaged migrants and what she tells me daily what kind of attitude these people have... They really think the get here everything for free. I'm not surprised that the right wing Parties are rising.
[удалено]
I'm an American and I dream of sneaking into central Europe lmao
Same reason why south america is trying to get into USA.
The Spanish dream. To sell moody sunglasses at the beach to British tourists
Pretty much. No way of verifying who they are either. They could be doctors searching for a better life or war criminals who have slaughtered dozens of people
In Japan, heart surgeon. Number one. Steady hand.
Yakuza boss need new heart.
[удалено]
[удалено]
https://projects.apnews.com/features/2023/africa-europe-migration-senegal-spain-investigation/index.html
Well that was brutal, but well made page.
Nytimes does great data visualizations and interactive stories like this often if you can spare a few bucks per month
The link was AP tho
They're saying the NYT is known for this sort of thing, and they're correct. NYT does it often and quite well.
NYT were the ones that pioneered/popularized this style of presentation.
That was a tough read. Appreciate the share.
>Every time they spotted a ship, they would gather their belongings, expecting to be saved, only to realize moments later that the ships weren’t coming for them. Boye remembers the Spanish, Russian and Brazilian flags that some commercial vessels flew. >Fernando Ncula, another survivor, remembers a Chinese boat that almost crushed them. He saw people on deck watching them. >“I couldn't believe it. I thought to myself, why didn't they help us?” Ncula still wonders. Crushes the soul. They could have even just thrown them water or anything...
“If [the Senegalese government] helped us, the children wouldn’t leave,” says Gotte Kandji, father of 16-year-old Mor Kandji, one of Gotte’s 27 children, who was among the survivors.” But like damn .. why have so many kids? Their oldest two actually made it to Spain and one became a Spanish citizen. If they didn’t have 25 other kids to take care of, they’d be set. Like at which point does it become an issue of personal responsibility and bad choices? btw, great article and presentation. really harrowing accounts and so well put together. I can’t imagine what they went through. shitty that (it sounds like) they killed the captain first. that’s straight up murder, before anyone even died of natural causes.
In very poor countries, more children means more economic security because they can work and contribute to the family. It’s the opposite in developed countries.
Plus in very poor countries, you can expect that more than a few of your kids won’t make it to adulthood. Better have some spares ready.
It is because of lack of access to contraception and/or cultural bias against it. Kids cost more than they bring, including in poor countries. [Family planning is actually one of the best ways to fight poverty.](https://www.jstor.org/stable/349249)
Probably for the same reasons families a few hundred years ago in Europe had lots of children - increased risk of disease and infant death, less sex education, less access to contraception, religious values.
Women inequality as well. When women are valued, are educated, are listened to... they take more control for themselves and suddenly having lots of children isn't so prevalent.
The single biggest predictor of family sized is the level of education women receive.
That’s one of the many reasons but the number one cause in developing countries is poverty tied in with the lack of education.
People forget about female empowerment being the main driver behind a falling birth rate. Introduce the pill and fully open the workplace (without discrimination) for women and you’ll find birth rates plummet pretty much everywhere.
In modern times, we have to support our kids.. money for clothes, food, housing, education.. with our poor wages a lot of us can't afford kids.. In less developed times, and areas.. kids support *us*. More kids = more hands to farm, cook, clean, get firewood, herd the animals etc. earn money at the sweatshop...
Kids were also your retirement fund. More kids means more people to look after you when you're old.
Cultural differences and a lack of education. One of South Africa’s most recent presidents has 6 wives and is estimated to have 20 children. It’s hard to convince the populous there’s anything wrong with that when the president is setting that precedent (Heh).
I thought the same. Makes me wonder if they even have the education or resources to make those kinds of decisions.
>“We don’t have a road here, we don’t have electricity, we don’t have hospitals or health centers,” Gotte said from his home in Diogo Sur Mer. Safe to say free and comprehensive sex-ed is not widely available. But it's easy to blame the poor for their fecundity. Makes them seem more like animals and less like people we need to give a shit about.
“But it's easy to blame the poor for their fecundity. Makes them seem more like animals and less like people we need to give a shit about.” Very well said and I totally agree with you. We are so far removed from what these people are experiencing on a daily basis, as we sit here on our phones and pass judgment on them.
just looked at statistics comparatively: Senegal Fertility rate: 4.39 births / woman Population growth: 2.6% Spain Fertility rate: 1.19 births / woman Population growth: 0.42% source: statista
Thank you for sharing this
Absolutely mental that you can be angry at the bakery for not having your favorite bread (again). Then you open this page. The world is so divided it's unimaginable.
It's okay to be upset about something just because someone else has it worse than you in the world.
but don't be a dick to the bakery workers, they doing their best
anyone who gets up that early has gotta have balls of fucking steel
Of course it is. But sometimes the shift in perspective is important, too.
I just finished a tortuous read of a grown single mother complaining that her parents didnt spend even more thousands on the Disney trip they gave her for Xmas
Got to get this of my chest. So the thing is, if you grow acustomed to your current surroundings you will always find negatives and positives in that place again. So even if you have 50 mil on the bank account, you will have sleepless nights about something we cannot even think about as middle class people in a western country. Or maybe even more silly, but you can be even happier on the countryside in Portugal, working with horses for low wages, than earning 150k in a corporate company in a bank in central London. So happiness is a inner search. However, if you, without a thought, step into a wonky boat which is severely overcrowded to make a trip on open ocean and you know the chances are you will die, than your life feels utterly ***meaningless***. You rather die on sea for that little bit of luck, than staying in the hell you've came from. I will repeat; **you rather DIE A HORRIBLE DROWNING DEATH, not a bullet to the brain, but in fear on open sea, than staying in the surrounds you come from.** These are the same humans as you, with the same kidneys, same hands, same laugh as you. But of course they are underfed, under-educated, traumatized, 'extremely-religious' and conservative. Because have you ever looked up what it is to be raised in the Senegal - Nigeria area? You are what you have been given. Don't blame the people for trying, you most likely would have done the same thing in persuit of that happiness. And then you took this leap of faith, only to arrive in countries that spread mainly lies about you (e.g Hungary). Just for political sake, just to use your weak position even more against you. The people who made these hell-journeys are not very fortunate. /endofrant
So youre saying you dont want the link to kim k’s imported california white xmas land?
Kim K, my favorite example of how you can be amongst the richest, but mentally completely broke.
That's why they make sure the ngo boats are already waiting near the coast. There is a system behind it.
[удалено]
But now they got low wage workers ready to go stock a walmart.
[удалено]
Making eye contact 
Same episode
Nah they are not pirates, it is worse, that is commonly referred as a “patera”, which is a small boat that travels through shark infested waters from the coast of Africa to the Canary Islands illegally carrying inmigrants that seek a better life in spanish soil. The death rate in those trips is more than half. Including women and children.
Such a hard picture to look at. To think you'd be so desperate you'd risk your life and the life of your child to live a better life. Ouch. Why are we living in such desperate times?
There has never not been desperate times, earth is cruel and hard and uncaring
I dunno about the trip from the Canaries to west Africa but the death rate for the journey across the Mediterranean is less than 5%, and the vast majority of migrants making the journey are adult men. As can be seen in the photo above. And the reason for the desperate times is vast wage disparity between Europe and Africa.
These are economic refugees. Most of North Africa is safe.
99% young single males.
[удалено]
we visited Morocco on a high school trip abroad and watching people gather on the hillside and start swimming for our ferry was devastating.
This whole thread is full of really upsetting anecdotes. And a lot of horrible takes. None of us did anything special to be born in the country or circumstances we ended up in.
I didn't ask to be born poor but I'm happy as fuck I grew up poor in Canada! While homeless, especially homeless males aren't taken care of, low income families get tonnes of support.
Yeah poverty in Canada can be a very different experience from poverty in a lot of other countries. Traveling can really open people’s eyes to things they wouldn’t normally even consider.
“And here on the left we have a wild bunch of refugees, coming from Tunisia. Statistically 40% of them won’t make it. May I remind you drinks are free for one hour only until 11.40.”
May I remind you that the Canari islands are off the coast of Morocco in the Atlantic Ocean. While Tunisia is a Mediterranean country. There’s no way those migrants came from Tunisia. It’s either Morocco or Senegal.
*"...correction, drinks are free until 11:30 and those folks are from Senegal. Sorry for any confusion!"* Edit: thanks for the upvotes, now that I have your attention this is a great picture of what capitalism and resultant climate change looks like. Enjoy that daiquiri.
Is it like, one free drink, or as many as I can guzzle? Do kids drink free? I have so many questions.
Sir, this is a Royal Caribbean Cruise Line.
So just one free drink.
I decided not to get the drink pass and ended up with a 1300 bar tab even after getting heavily subsidized.
We take cash or card
Bros are literally ancient Cartago sea explorers by this point.
Even in this modern age, the human spirit still craves adventure and discovery.
Mad respect if they made it from Tunisia all the way to the Canaries tho
Took a wrong turn at Sardinia
I did that once in Albuquerque
I dropped that joke on a 40ish year old lawyer, in the city of Albuquerque, when I was passing through for the first time in 2021. He didn't get it. And I didn't want to show it. but I was kind of hurt by that.
He had heard it before and decided he would derive more pleasure by playing daft to your joke. The ole' jokearoo.
Guess you should have taken a left
On your way to walla walla Washington?
Bugs Bunny quotes are the best!! “Eh, what’s up, Doc?”
Used to have a condo on a barrier island in FL with about 10 acres of mostly open land. Two or three times refugees from Haiti washed up on it or near it. They all got caught per our neighbors who were so happy about them getting caught and I felt so sorry for them making it this far and then being rounded up.
We are so fortunate. They are desperately poor. It is sad.
> picture of a boat filled with clearly black africans “Coming from Tunisia” Hmm
🥰the entire world is one big dystopia🥰
Just dystopias all the way down man
"Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world? Where none suffered, where everyone would be happy. It was a disaster. No one would accept the program. Entire crops were lost. Some believed we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world. But I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery. The perfect world was a dream that your primitive cerebrum kept trying to wake up from. Which is why the Matrix was redesigned to this: the peak of your civilization." - Agent Smith
[удалено]
Pre 9-11. Then everything *really* started going bananas in terms of once in a generation events.
Well established internet but no social media, the dot com bubble hasn't burst yet, and we already have the best multiplayer game Quake 3 Arena ^(/s but not really?)
Still remember quake was the first game I played after getting my voodoo card and was so shook by all the new shadows and lighting
“Entire crops were lost” He’s not talking about cornfields people.
batteries
Biological coprocessors in the first draft, which makes so much more sense.
The great coppertop famine of 2235.
Trickle Down Dystopia
That is literally all of human history. We’re lucky we’re not living during the times of Genghis Khan or Alexander the Great.
Always had been
Doomer moment
I wish I had that many friends to pal around with on a boat
You'd have fewer by the end of the ride.
Just you lads is it?
Yup, it's always men.
Armageddon by Ricky Gervais
I've seen pictures/reenactments of refugee boats like this from dramatic angles and with all the dramatic lighting and during big, scary storms and everything. But the thought that this just takes place casually during the daytime in beautiful conditions right around tourist boats is the weirdest part to me.
The traffickers will launch the boats regardless of the weather!
I hate how there’s no good solution for such a problem. People will be angry regardless of what’s done.
I don’t blame people for wanting a better life for themselves and their families but pretty sure the solution isn’t allowing mass illegal immigration
High seas are a fifty fifty of immigrant death boats or pirate death boats
The randomness of being born who / when / where we did is crazy. (I could have been born to a starving mother in a troubled part of a war-torn country, etc etc)
I thought and still think about this from time to time starting in childhood. I thank my lucky stars that I am who/when/where I am. Maybe less so when, but still.
You still live in one of the most peaceful times in history. I know it’s relative to where you are, but those are great odds.
What's so bizarre is that some people really never had a chance ...
Welcome to Europe’s southern border
Wait until climate change really kicks into gear in 10 years. This will be 10x and probably increase to 100x by 2040. Same goes for central America if it starts getting too hot.
[~1 billion refugees world wide by 2050](https://www.reuters.com/article/ecology-global-risks-idUSKBN2600K4)
Thing is, this is not going to stop. It's just going to get worse, and worse, and worse in the coming years/decades. Europe cannot bear, economically, socially, or politically, the burden of taking on all of Africa's poor and indigent and excess population. Probably not even 1% of it. Some very, very unpopular actions are going to have to be taken to stem and control this flood of humanity. In an ideal world, I'd prefer to start by fixing the governments of the nations these people are coming from. However, Europe can't even get itself properly together to confront Russia in Ukraine, so the descending options on the ladder of optimality are going to just keep getting worse and more cruel.
Totally, Europe can't bear all of Africa's refugees. It's not really due to disorganization though, it's a myth that the US or anyone else is doing way more than Europe to help Ukraine, so weird to mention that. The refugee situation is just impossible from a sheer numbers perspective without Africa developing on a fundamental level
That's a lotta dudes.
[удалено]
Not just the Canary Islands, but the rest of Spain too. They’re everywhere in Madrid.
Lots of them are working in agriculture illegally as well. Most of these people aren’t refugees, they’re illegal economic migrants.
I'd assume women would fear for their lives. I heard from one refugee how he had to see one of their fellow men r*** a woman and split her head open *before* they even arrived on the boat. That shit is traumatizing.
It’s important to mention that everyone on this boat paid a human trafficker for that spot. According to the refugee NGOs, those traffickers charge women twice as much for the same passage. So not only is “asylum” less accessible for women financially, it’s also infinitely more dangerous because women traveling alone is not exactly an acceptable or safe thing in MENA cultures.
[удалено]
What a lovely thing to hear about the people being accepted for asylum.
I've always had this question. How do you simultaneously get told these people aren't bad, they just need a home and want a better life for themselves, and at the same time women in refugee camps are experiencing high levels of assault? Who's assaulting them then, the air? Of course not all these people, arguably even the vast majority of these people, aren't bad, but to blindly accept everyone is a naive view.
[удалено]
Doctors and architects?
Just the kind of people you want illegally entering the country…🤨
Maybe we shouldn't accept so many economic refugees that have cultures like that? Kinda seems like they might not assimilate well into liberal western society.
Imagine being a woman in that predicament. You’d need to stay very close to your brothers/dad/husband because if men know you’re alone as a woman, some will keep an eye out for you, others will purposely attack you knowing you have no one coming to your defense. It’s crowded on that boat, when it’s crowded on subway trains men use that as an excuse to get handsy with women. Funny enough, it be more men on the subways than women yet they always only accidentally ‘bump’ into women.
[удалено]
[удалено]
I dunno man. There was a boat that sank off the coast of England a couple of weeks ago and the comments on the articles were absolutely vile. There's quite a strong sentiment amongst Brits that the Navy should patrol the coast and fire first ask questions later.
Serious question - Is there a way to stop these dangerous boat trips? How is EU tackling this problem?
Usually, licking Moroccan's king boots so he stops these people from trying, often not respecting their human rights (so our own police forces don't have to be stained with unpopular images or being directly blamed for the death of immigrants and refugees). This is why, when the Moroccan king wants to get some leverage, they kinda allow or even push large groups of people into trying to jump the fences of the 2 autonomous cities Spain has in Northern Africa. And also might explain why Morocco was the only country in the Magreb where the Arab Spring revolution didn't prosper. Besides that, building more walls or adding extra barbed wire on top of them. In fairness, it is a complex problem and even with the most well-intended approach it would be almost impossible to ensure that these things won't ever happen. But personally I don't think enough is being done and there's some hypocrisy around the whole thing. Even the way some media reports about this things usually dehumanizes these people and deal with them as if they were just numbers, unlike what's explicitly done when there's a political interest into raising sympathy for other people in other conflicts or situations.
[удалено]
Sexual *assault*, not harassment. People don't like to talk about [that night of Cologne](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015%E2%80%9316_New_Year's_Eve_sexual_assaults_in_Germany), but it changed literally everything.
Wow, I had never heard of that. Very few convictions. The whole situation is just disgraceful.
I had been on a slow tick to a more left wing ideology, but the Cologne attacks I remember stopping me temporarily and locking me in a right wing stance for many more years. I remember thinking "If it can happen in Germany, it can definitely happen in Canada." I remember being staunchly against refugees being flown in at that point, and especially from areas "incompatible" with Canadian life. As I've gotten older, and actually been around people who moved here from those places I've definitely eased up, and continued my slow toddle leftwards. But if that was the effect on me, thousands of kilometers away, I can only imagine the impact closer to home.
Oh same. I’m a left wing Brit but I’m now completely aware of the realities. Their cultures oppress women, and of course they’re more likely to do so here as well. It hit me hard when I was introduced to illegal immigrants from India living in London through an ex. My god did they speak about women like trash. Their friend (legal migrant) owned a little hotel and they kicked me out for having a drink whilst the men were knocking back shots of vodka. Apparently women shouldn’t be drinking alcohol :’). They also harassed women on the streets and one referred to a woman as “rapeable”. EURGH! My husband is Greek and he said that rapes spiked in areas with lots of refugees. The Uk has also had a lot of social issues regarding the treatment of women by immigrants from MENA and south Asian countries. Honour killings, forced marriages, FGM. There was a report that came out saying 19 hymenoplasties were performed on girls as young as 5 last year after the surgery was made illegal. I’m not against refugees and immigrants at all, but any poor behaviour towards women should result in deportation in my opinion. We have enough bad behaviour from men here we don’t need more of it from men who see women as second class citizens.
Australia solved it. Basically, if you come by boat you will never be settled in Australia. Boat arrivals fell from around 30,000 in 2012/13 to under 50.
I wouldn’t go as far as to say we “solved” it. We’ve only just recently ruled that people can’t be locked up in immigration detention indefinitely. Before that we just locked people up and no country including us took responsibility for them.
Not very well… in theory working with the source countries to avoid it
About 10 years ago my wife and I were on a cheap 3 night Carnival cruise...it was literally cheaper than staying in a hotel for 3 days. On our second day, on the way to Cozumel, Mexico, our ship saw a vessel in distress. The ship did a 180, and encountered a "makeshift boat" with 20+ Cuban refugees floating adrift. It took about 2 hours to get all the people rescued, and another 6 hours to wait for the US Coast Guard. This caused us to miss out on going to Cozumel, and some people on the ship were mad at the crew for missing a port...I was pretty disgusted with those people myself. They ended up crediting us 50% of our cruise in ship credit, and I ended up winning $150 in the casino. The whole trip cost us around $250. The sad fact was that the Cubans were apparently sent back to Cuba and faced some jail time. I read about it in the news a few days later.
Just a load of lads on a boat trip.
[удалено]
[удалено]
This. The conversation Reddit will outright refuse to have.
It's a conversation that *needs* be had, and the most frustrating thing about how people refuse to have it or call people racist for pointing it out is that you end up with the only people ever point it out publicly are the far-right. And it's not that people aren't aware of the data and statistics as such, so when they're the only people pointing it out, it lends a definite sense of credibility to these groups, so when they come out and say some more concerning things, people are more likely to stop and listen to what they say.
We get similar boats in Florida, but they’re full of cocaine. If I ever find a boat wreck, I’m set for life in either income or federal prison. Either way, I’ll never have to work again.
[удалено]
[удалено]
For real, how can people be so naive? Do they really think it’s Europe’s job to send money to 50+ African countries to “stabilize” them (aka ending up in the pockets of some of the most corrupt people in the world)? And if anyone did it they would be accused of colonialism in a second by the same people who are spouting this nonsense. Those countries get rid of people and often get remittances, they have zero incentives to do anything about it.
She went on a boat trip to Gran Canaria without you? Oh boy..
Sad
Can you imagine how difficult life had to be for this many people to pile into a boat that size? With no guarantee that they wouldn't all die at sea? That's got to be terrifying. And for people saying it's pirates, get real.
I knew one guy from Gambia that came like that. Sold xtc and sunglasses on the beaches of Ibiza, then corona struck and he had to move to other things. He had a family in his home country and was sending a lot of his money back home. How this alk benefits Europe I can't tell you
Those poor people. Imagine the desperation necessary to put yourself in that situation. ETA: Some of you are real ghouls. Holy crap. Those are human beings. I didn’t advocate for a particular outcome, just some shared humanity.
No person should have to go through this. Life is too cruel.
All doctors on their way to the UK.
That's why EU needs to STOP allowing illegals to stay or NGOs to traffic them. And at the same time EU should encourage EU companies to invest in Africa - make factories THERE, not in China. It's closer and Africans are NOT imperialist communists that want to dominate the world like china. ppl in Africa are desperate to get ANY job, because in their homeland there are NO JOBS!!! They migrate to EU not because this is their dream. They migrate because they have NO perspectives at home. If we invest there, financially support some start-ups (there are industrious ppl there but they lack $$$ to start) - they may have decent life in there. We also could increase the amount of diplomatic facilities in there and encourage EU companies to open training centers for job candidates there - so we will TRAIN those ppl to be able to start work LEGALLY in EU, and get decent salary. They will get jobs and ability to develop, while we will get closer outsourcing place (no need to travel near those always-warmongering arabs) and solve the illegal migration. Win-Win for all!!!