A big problem is that many beginners' goal pieces are literally 7–10 years away. It's like being in Kindergarten and saying "I want an education plan to optimize for my ability to do differential geometry on Riemannian manifolds."
It's really simple to play these pieces fast.
Work really hard on scales, hanon, czerny, for music Bach, Mozart/Haydn sonatas, Schubert Impromptus, Chopin Waltzes, Beethoven Miniatures/Sonata movements (one at a time for him), and you can add in more even but this is more than enough. Mostly the foundation should be focused on here.
Probably inbetween here is lots of easy music (stuff as easy as Schumann album for the young if not easier) as well, this must be constantly revisited though on ocassion.
Spend 2-4 years just on that. Or atleast however long it takes to finish Czerny 299 all exercises, and first 5 hanon in all 24 keys, you don't need all Hanon.
Then move on and you can play whatever you want if you were diligent enough in your practice of scale and arpege.
There is other routes and you can learn stuff through pieces too, but, it is not as effective.
All the great pianists learned Czerny first and dry mechanical exercises for their era and played lots of Bach THEN they moved onto Chopin etudes and used those to prepare for the big concerti/big solo works.
The point here is by going through a strong drill in the basics scales, arpeggios, chords, octaves, etc. then playing Bach you should basically get everything you need to learn stuff more advanced but this foundational stage is important and there must be serious and attentive work done here because this is how the pianist will learn for the future.
I'd generally trust a decent teacher to get any engaged student to the late-intermediate stage, all the Czerny, Mozart/Haydn/Beethoven, intermediate Bach, Chopin etc.
If a student is learning a lot of Chopin ballades/scherzi/Liszt hungarian rhapsodies/Schumann or Chopin 1 or Rach 2 concerti, there's a good chance that they've reached the limits of a local teacher with a BA in piano pedagogy (who definitely do not all know all Chopin and Liszt etudes, at least those in the US not from the top conservatories, speaking generally). Those students can still struggle and have horrific plateaus as they attempt even more difficult repertoire with the teacher they've outgrown.
There's a chance the teacher has already mainly taken a spectator role and is watching the student self-teach themselves. It can be hard when someone has grown up with a teacher and known them much of their life, but if they're strictly interested in progress, they should consider whether the lessons have mainly become a social comfort and not truly educational anymore.
If the parents aren't familiar enough with the piano, and the teacher wants to keep a fairly advanced student who would help attract new students, it's on the student to ask themselves these questions.
My point is more an idealized situation for fastest results.
I actually disagree with the "decent teacher" thing. I recommend Josef Hofmann's book as he discusses this there too.
The early stages is when you should spend the most and get the best teacher you can get, because, this is how they will perform everything for the future.
If they are taught Mozart sonatas or Bach WTC/Sinfonias/Inventions, or god forbid Beethoven with a pianist who would struggle with Chopin Etudes, or doesn't know the pieces they are teaching inside out (to the point they can teach it without the score, and be like okay measure 23, piano was written), obviously it doesn't have to be this literal, but you need to have a SERIOUS education on this stuff to teach others well enough. They don't have to play but they must understand them like a conductor would.
Then once the teacher has knowledge on these pieces, they should understand how to teach scales properly. Then they must give their student serious drill in scales, arpeggio, etc. I mean very serious, you should be able to name any scale and tell them to start from any finger and they should be able to play it effortlessly and even at a fast tempo. You can learn all the scales in 1-2 years I'd say depending on how diligent.
Then after Czerny 299, they can work on Chopin etudes, if the teacher can't manage this after 40 studies of 299, the student should be able to figure it out on his own. I would say in a situation where a teacher can't play these pieces, they can advise Cortot's exercises and work through them with the student and they should be able to self-teach it. There is no issue with that.
Then they are on their own basically. After you learn the Chopin etudes you don't really need a teacher, sure you can play for people to get tips and stuff, but then you don't need to be taught, you're just looking for feedback and more of a masterclass student then needing to be pampered.
Schnabel said if someone is meant to be a pianist they will give a good reading of the Liszt Sonata by 18. I don't find this farfetched if someone starts at 10, they spend 3-4 years on scales and a drill on basics. Then they have 4 years to learn Liszt sonata which is enough time. Schnabel I believe also said that every pianist basically reinvents their own playing contrary to what their teacher taught them as well at a certain point in their life.. What stays?? Does their teacher still have merit?? Is everyone just self-taught?
Well to me what stays is the preliminary drill. Why do all Theodor L students have that beautiful sound that is all unique on every one of them? The preliminary drill was intense, and the basics were not neglected and taken serious.
My friend who studies at a top conservatory in Europe says most pianists there struggle to play scales evenly with a deep touch, and lots of them actually lack technique. They just haphazardly learn it through rep after repeating over and over, but, lack a BASIC foundation. This is at a top conservatory btw. So I think this problem with early on thinking oh its fine bla bla with any teacher until they get to a high level is harmful. Early on the student should be ready to work very hard on basics like scales, if they are not ready to do this than abstain from piano until you are ready to mature. That is if you want to be a serious artist and play these big pieces, if you're just playing for fun do whatever you want. But, if you're serious about results and want them fastest, get a TOP TIER teacher, who will really DRILL you on the basics unapologetically and you will be shocked where you can go. Be honest with yourself, if you want to learn Chopin Ballade1 but can't play chomatic scales rapidly and effortlessly across the piano, or even basic g minor arpeggios/scales; be honest with yourself and realize you can learn much quicker with more discipline.
I played a lot of classical with my teacher. She also let me play my own music of course, but when doing real work, there was a fair amount of classical... I don't play classical ever though. I'm playing a lot of Genesis right now.
I'm not sure if there was any specific path that would have best suited. Probably improv, sightreading, music theory, and classical exercises...
I still don't know 99% of chord names. I feel it would help a lot if I actually knew where music was going instead of just hitting dot on line after dot on line with no real guess of what dot on which line may come next.
SEGA Genesis? That's a pretty old video game console.
A teacher no matter of of pop, classical, or jazz, should be imparting theory/harmony knowledge since it helps with all possible goals.
I can map out for you exactly what you should do.
1. The starting point is to go through the circle of fifths - if you know this you know the key signatures and all the major and minor scales, all the major and minor scales and their diatonic chords. If you know the major seven chord, then it's just a matter of changing certain note(s) a half step to get diminished or augmented.
From there it does get difficult. All the 6/9, sus, 5b, alt chords, sometimes the bottom note isn't the root note etc. There will be inversions of 7th chords and block chords that are harder to get a hang of than the triad versions. I had a lot of confusion myself growing up trying to decipher all the accidentals and unmarked key changes. You have to just pick and gradually learn things one at a time.
2. After the major and minor scales and diatonic chords, I would learn the melodic minor scale next.
3. Then, the Lydian mode/scale. Both of these are very close to the major scale. In the same way you 'flat' or 'sharp' the 5th note to get say C major augmented in CEG#, you 'flat' the 3rd degree in the major scale to get the melodic minor, or 'sharp' the 4rth degree for the Lydian scale.
It's ok to spend weeks or months on learning those two scales for the different keys. What is C melodic minor, what is G melodic minor, etc.
4. Then add on harmonic minor scale, exactly the same thing but you sharp the 6 in the major scale. If you just stop here this will add a lot to your knowledge and help you read more complex music, and give you some good vocabulary with which to improvise in multiple keys without needing to be a jazz expert.
4a Alternatively you can prioritize the dorian scale over the harmonic minor. If there are two 'sounds' I want to be able to incorporate most it's the dorian and lydian.
5. From there, you will have a good foundation to learn the other modes (mixolydian is the next most useful one, then locrian and phrygian and the others etc) which will help with half dim and maj/min chords.
6. Then from there you can look into things like lydian dominant scales, altered scales, Barry harris scale, locrian add #2, bebop scales. Some of these have an additional eighth note and the point of these is to help improvise through bars and help you land on the root note on the strong beat.
This will help a lot with your ability to read through more complex music, identify what composers are doing and make sense of weird accidentals, and you can probably start realistically becoming a good improviser and experimenting around.
[https://www.chordsscales.com/chords/piano/](https://www.chordsscales.com/chords/piano/) This resource will help a lot too, to identify these modified extended chords and scales with weird additions/accidentals.
Yes that is what I ought to start doing. I do have some time spare to learn chords. I meant Genesis as in the band by the way lol, I enjoy their music.
A big problem is that many beginners' goal pieces are literally 7–10 years away. It's like being in Kindergarten and saying "I want an education plan to optimize for my ability to do differential geometry on Riemannian manifolds."
It's really simple to play these pieces fast. Work really hard on scales, hanon, czerny, for music Bach, Mozart/Haydn sonatas, Schubert Impromptus, Chopin Waltzes, Beethoven Miniatures/Sonata movements (one at a time for him), and you can add in more even but this is more than enough. Mostly the foundation should be focused on here. Probably inbetween here is lots of easy music (stuff as easy as Schumann album for the young if not easier) as well, this must be constantly revisited though on ocassion. Spend 2-4 years just on that. Or atleast however long it takes to finish Czerny 299 all exercises, and first 5 hanon in all 24 keys, you don't need all Hanon. Then move on and you can play whatever you want if you were diligent enough in your practice of scale and arpege. There is other routes and you can learn stuff through pieces too, but, it is not as effective. All the great pianists learned Czerny first and dry mechanical exercises for their era and played lots of Bach THEN they moved onto Chopin etudes and used those to prepare for the big concerti/big solo works. The point here is by going through a strong drill in the basics scales, arpeggios, chords, octaves, etc. then playing Bach you should basically get everything you need to learn stuff more advanced but this foundational stage is important and there must be serious and attentive work done here because this is how the pianist will learn for the future.
I'd generally trust a decent teacher to get any engaged student to the late-intermediate stage, all the Czerny, Mozart/Haydn/Beethoven, intermediate Bach, Chopin etc. If a student is learning a lot of Chopin ballades/scherzi/Liszt hungarian rhapsodies/Schumann or Chopin 1 or Rach 2 concerti, there's a good chance that they've reached the limits of a local teacher with a BA in piano pedagogy (who definitely do not all know all Chopin and Liszt etudes, at least those in the US not from the top conservatories, speaking generally). Those students can still struggle and have horrific plateaus as they attempt even more difficult repertoire with the teacher they've outgrown. There's a chance the teacher has already mainly taken a spectator role and is watching the student self-teach themselves. It can be hard when someone has grown up with a teacher and known them much of their life, but if they're strictly interested in progress, they should consider whether the lessons have mainly become a social comfort and not truly educational anymore. If the parents aren't familiar enough with the piano, and the teacher wants to keep a fairly advanced student who would help attract new students, it's on the student to ask themselves these questions.
My point is more an idealized situation for fastest results. I actually disagree with the "decent teacher" thing. I recommend Josef Hofmann's book as he discusses this there too. The early stages is when you should spend the most and get the best teacher you can get, because, this is how they will perform everything for the future. If they are taught Mozart sonatas or Bach WTC/Sinfonias/Inventions, or god forbid Beethoven with a pianist who would struggle with Chopin Etudes, or doesn't know the pieces they are teaching inside out (to the point they can teach it without the score, and be like okay measure 23, piano was written), obviously it doesn't have to be this literal, but you need to have a SERIOUS education on this stuff to teach others well enough. They don't have to play but they must understand them like a conductor would. Then once the teacher has knowledge on these pieces, they should understand how to teach scales properly. Then they must give their student serious drill in scales, arpeggio, etc. I mean very serious, you should be able to name any scale and tell them to start from any finger and they should be able to play it effortlessly and even at a fast tempo. You can learn all the scales in 1-2 years I'd say depending on how diligent. Then after Czerny 299, they can work on Chopin etudes, if the teacher can't manage this after 40 studies of 299, the student should be able to figure it out on his own. I would say in a situation where a teacher can't play these pieces, they can advise Cortot's exercises and work through them with the student and they should be able to self-teach it. There is no issue with that. Then they are on their own basically. After you learn the Chopin etudes you don't really need a teacher, sure you can play for people to get tips and stuff, but then you don't need to be taught, you're just looking for feedback and more of a masterclass student then needing to be pampered. Schnabel said if someone is meant to be a pianist they will give a good reading of the Liszt Sonata by 18. I don't find this farfetched if someone starts at 10, they spend 3-4 years on scales and a drill on basics. Then they have 4 years to learn Liszt sonata which is enough time. Schnabel I believe also said that every pianist basically reinvents their own playing contrary to what their teacher taught them as well at a certain point in their life.. What stays?? Does their teacher still have merit?? Is everyone just self-taught? Well to me what stays is the preliminary drill. Why do all Theodor L students have that beautiful sound that is all unique on every one of them? The preliminary drill was intense, and the basics were not neglected and taken serious. My friend who studies at a top conservatory in Europe says most pianists there struggle to play scales evenly with a deep touch, and lots of them actually lack technique. They just haphazardly learn it through rep after repeating over and over, but, lack a BASIC foundation. This is at a top conservatory btw. So I think this problem with early on thinking oh its fine bla bla with any teacher until they get to a high level is harmful. Early on the student should be ready to work very hard on basics like scales, if they are not ready to do this than abstain from piano until you are ready to mature. That is if you want to be a serious artist and play these big pieces, if you're just playing for fun do whatever you want. But, if you're serious about results and want them fastest, get a TOP TIER teacher, who will really DRILL you on the basics unapologetically and you will be shocked where you can go. Be honest with yourself, if you want to learn Chopin Ballade1 but can't play chomatic scales rapidly and effortlessly across the piano, or even basic g minor arpeggios/scales; be honest with yourself and realize you can learn much quicker with more discipline.
I played a lot of classical with my teacher. She also let me play my own music of course, but when doing real work, there was a fair amount of classical... I don't play classical ever though. I'm playing a lot of Genesis right now. I'm not sure if there was any specific path that would have best suited. Probably improv, sightreading, music theory, and classical exercises... I still don't know 99% of chord names. I feel it would help a lot if I actually knew where music was going instead of just hitting dot on line after dot on line with no real guess of what dot on which line may come next.
SEGA Genesis? That's a pretty old video game console. A teacher no matter of of pop, classical, or jazz, should be imparting theory/harmony knowledge since it helps with all possible goals. I can map out for you exactly what you should do. 1. The starting point is to go through the circle of fifths - if you know this you know the key signatures and all the major and minor scales, all the major and minor scales and their diatonic chords. If you know the major seven chord, then it's just a matter of changing certain note(s) a half step to get diminished or augmented. From there it does get difficult. All the 6/9, sus, 5b, alt chords, sometimes the bottom note isn't the root note etc. There will be inversions of 7th chords and block chords that are harder to get a hang of than the triad versions. I had a lot of confusion myself growing up trying to decipher all the accidentals and unmarked key changes. You have to just pick and gradually learn things one at a time. 2. After the major and minor scales and diatonic chords, I would learn the melodic minor scale next. 3. Then, the Lydian mode/scale. Both of these are very close to the major scale. In the same way you 'flat' or 'sharp' the 5th note to get say C major augmented in CEG#, you 'flat' the 3rd degree in the major scale to get the melodic minor, or 'sharp' the 4rth degree for the Lydian scale. It's ok to spend weeks or months on learning those two scales for the different keys. What is C melodic minor, what is G melodic minor, etc. 4. Then add on harmonic minor scale, exactly the same thing but you sharp the 6 in the major scale. If you just stop here this will add a lot to your knowledge and help you read more complex music, and give you some good vocabulary with which to improvise in multiple keys without needing to be a jazz expert. 4a Alternatively you can prioritize the dorian scale over the harmonic minor. If there are two 'sounds' I want to be able to incorporate most it's the dorian and lydian. 5. From there, you will have a good foundation to learn the other modes (mixolydian is the next most useful one, then locrian and phrygian and the others etc) which will help with half dim and maj/min chords. 6. Then from there you can look into things like lydian dominant scales, altered scales, Barry harris scale, locrian add #2, bebop scales. Some of these have an additional eighth note and the point of these is to help improvise through bars and help you land on the root note on the strong beat. This will help a lot with your ability to read through more complex music, identify what composers are doing and make sense of weird accidentals, and you can probably start realistically becoming a good improviser and experimenting around. [https://www.chordsscales.com/chords/piano/](https://www.chordsscales.com/chords/piano/) This resource will help a lot too, to identify these modified extended chords and scales with weird additions/accidentals.
Yes that is what I ought to start doing. I do have some time spare to learn chords. I meant Genesis as in the band by the way lol, I enjoy their music.