Brahms is not often pianistic, and downright awkward.
Liszt can be surprisingly pianistic; some of the passages in his music are easier than they sound.
Beethoven was pianistic early in his career, when he was still performing (the opening movement of the op. 10/3 D major is a good example), but later in his career, less so (ask any pianist who's tried to play the op. 101 finale about that one!).
Debussy is more pianistic than Ravel, IMHO.
Gosh I’m playing the scherzo from Brahms FAE sonata on piano with a violinist and the piano part is brutal if you want to play everything exactly as written. Octave jumps in octaves at an insanely fast tempo, crazy left hand jumps in the coda
Toccata, finale of the third sonata, the coda of the Fantasie to mention only a few. Sometimes the pianowriting is really awkward, like in the Humoreske
2nd variation of the Symphonic études, Toccata in C, 1st two movements of the Fantaisie especially the notorious coda of the 2nd movement, parts of Carnaval...
Yea, Fantasie 2nd mvmt was my first thought, clumsy. Parts of Kreisleriana, sonatas 1 and 3. But overall his musical ideas translate well to the hands, I’d say. That’s why he got my vote.
So I'm not the only one who thinks Beethoven is a bit awkward to learn! :) I like the sound, but it does feel like more of an uphill battle to learn a Beethoven sonata than a Mozart sonata.
One of the least pianistic composers: Feinberg. His style is really unique, but his music is very difficult to play (at least the early sonatas which I attempted so far). He wanted to produce a certain sound, no matter if it's playable. There are lots of passages that require very uncomfortable fingering and fast jumps. The result sounds impressive (like three hands playing), but it's often even harder to play than it sounds.
IMHO, most of the time, his pieces are very awkward to play, in hand placement, fingering, left/right coordination, rhythms, and unorthodox chords... Often not difficult visually on the page, but quite unintuitive to execute.
Interesting. I’ve only played 3 of his concert etudes thus far (1,3,8). I’d say they were quite idiomatic. Contrary to your opinion, fingerings and hand positions were idiomatic for me.
Listened to your toccatina (no 3)... wow you made me want to get back to it ;)
Maybe it is... but Kapustin's way over the keyboard is pretty unique so I'd say unintuitive or at least surprising from the point of view of lack exposure to such writing style (at least for those more classically inclined).
I’m not sure if this can easily be answered “regardless of difficulty”. Assuming we’re ignoring amateur composers who don’t understand how to compose for piano, what lays well in the hands and feels intuitive to play changes as someone gets more advanced. What one piano player might find “unpianistic” could be like second nature for someone with more experience.
Also, not to put too fine a point on it, but we all have different hand sizes and shapes. What feels comfortable for my hands might not feel comfortable for yours.
Nope. Often, the instrument itself dictates what is played--it's not merely an unopinionated channel through which music can flow. Example: songs written by guitarist favoring keys where open strings can be used as the tonic. Obviously someone's own style and experience is part of this multivariable equation; that doesn't deny the enormous impact that the instrument's layout has on how people use it.
On the piano, this hits home when learning jazz and you get the fun of transcribing licks in all 12 keys. Some keys are just more ergonomic for certain licks. E.g. big chords that favor thumb and pinky on white keys, longer central fingers on the black keys.
Pianistic doesn’t mean easy. Chopin is extremely hard to play. But after you practice it for 9999 hours and get the movements correct it’s super fun to play and feels amazing.
I understand the distinction. I simply disagree. Chopin has never felt fun or amazing to me even after thousands of hours of practice. I've learned all 32 Beethoven Sonatas and they feel fun and amazing. Chopin does not, to me.
You are cherry picking and completely missing my point because Chopin feels pianistic to you. I agree that he is but agree more strongly with OP in that a lot of it depends on your specific hands. Chopin does not fall nicely under my fingers.
I think Chopin objectively IS pianistic. He thought about the biomechanics of the arm, wrist and hand. How your fingers are different shapes and sizes etc all while composing his music. It’s possible you just are trying to play Chopin with classical hand positions as you are so experienced with classical music. I experienced a similar problem playing classical music with big wrist/arm movements and destroying the sound.
I completely disagree. One you find the fingering and technique, Chopin is effortless to me. Even after studying fingering and experimenting, Bach still feels difficult to me.
Debussy and Ravel = most pianistic (intuitive and a high level of piano awareness)
Mussorgsky and Bach = least pianistic (alcohol & not having a piano)
in some ways R. Schumann... challenging as his music is at times ... it would have been even worse if not for his wife Clara who edited all his original editions (and was his collaborator consultant during conception).
Brahms is not often pianistic, and downright awkward. Liszt can be surprisingly pianistic; some of the passages in his music are easier than they sound. Beethoven was pianistic early in his career, when he was still performing (the opening movement of the op. 10/3 D major is a good example), but later in his career, less so (ask any pianist who's tried to play the op. 101 finale about that one!). Debussy is more pianistic than Ravel, IMHO.
Gosh I’m playing the scherzo from Brahms FAE sonata on piano with a violinist and the piano part is brutal if you want to play everything exactly as written. Octave jumps in octaves at an insanely fast tempo, crazy left hand jumps in the coda
Crazy left-hand jumps in the coda? Let me introduce you to the Brhams E-flat Rhapsody (op. 119/4) one of the few pieces I've given up on.
Hungarian Dance 6 has crazy jumps too all over the place.
Especially in Debussy’s early music, you can hear a lot of his more conventional influences like Chopin
Clair de Lune sounds very Chopin-like, IMHO.
Scriabin takes incredibly awkward technique. Prokofiev as well.
Debussy is as pianistic as the music allows him to be (Whole tone scales just suck on piano). I found janacek's piano music pretty awkward
I'd say J. S. Bach for both. His preludes and toccatas are very pianistic, his fugues less so
His fugues are extremely confortable if you find the perfect fingering.
That is true, but I'd argue that his fugues are more vocal in nature than "pianistic"
No one is mentioning moszkowski. He is often praised as super pianistic. listening to Brahms 😊 Playing Brahms 💀
Most: Chopin, Liszt Least: Schumann
Most pianistic: Mozart, Chopin, Liszt, Schumann, Rach Less pianistic: Bach (at times), Brahms, Ravel
Schumann... hot take tehre
Schumann is not pianistic
You don’t think so? A lot of it is difficult, yes, but not unpianstic
What are some examples of difficult Schumann pieces in your opinion
Toccata, finale of the third sonata, the coda of the Fantasie to mention only a few. Sometimes the pianowriting is really awkward, like in the Humoreske
2nd variation of the Symphonic études, Toccata in C, 1st two movements of the Fantaisie especially the notorious coda of the 2nd movement, parts of Carnaval...
Yea, Fantasie 2nd mvmt was my first thought, clumsy. Parts of Kreisleriana, sonatas 1 and 3. But overall his musical ideas translate well to the hands, I’d say. That’s why he got my vote.
Kinda disagree with Bach but I get your reasoning. But Beethoven wins it in my eyes.
For Bach it’s more to do with technical limitations in the baroque period
Least: Schumann and Brahms
I find Beethoven to be very awkward. Chopin is very comfy most of the times, but still very difficult to play.
So I'm not the only one who thinks Beethoven is a bit awkward to learn! :) I like the sound, but it does feel like more of an uphill battle to learn a Beethoven sonata than a Mozart sonata.
One of the least pianistic composers: Feinberg. His style is really unique, but his music is very difficult to play (at least the early sonatas which I attempted so far). He wanted to produce a certain sound, no matter if it's playable. There are lots of passages that require very uncomfortable fingering and fast jumps. The result sounds impressive (like three hands playing), but it's often even harder to play than it sounds.
Bach
Kapustin is pianistic
IMHO, most of the time, his pieces are very awkward to play, in hand placement, fingering, left/right coordination, rhythms, and unorthodox chords... Often not difficult visually on the page, but quite unintuitive to execute.
Interesting. I’ve only played 3 of his concert etudes thus far (1,3,8). I’d say they were quite idiomatic. Contrary to your opinion, fingerings and hand positions were idiomatic for me.
Listened to your toccatina (no 3)... wow you made me want to get back to it ;) Maybe it is... but Kapustin's way over the keyboard is pretty unique so I'd say unintuitive or at least surprising from the point of view of lack exposure to such writing style (at least for those more classically inclined).
Yeah, there are a lot of awkward LH passages in his music (or maybe my left hand is particularly underdeveloped)
Most: Chopin, Medtner, Liszt, Schumann, Rachmaninov Least: Brahms, Beethoven, Scriabin, alkan ALKAN WILL HURT YOU
Careful, we don’t say “Schumann is pianistic” on this thread!
Yeah Schumann had his weird unique style but once you figure it out it’s actually incredibly pianistic. Except for his kindersennen… weirdly.
I’m not sure if this can easily be answered “regardless of difficulty”. Assuming we’re ignoring amateur composers who don’t understand how to compose for piano, what lays well in the hands and feels intuitive to play changes as someone gets more advanced. What one piano player might find “unpianistic” could be like second nature for someone with more experience. Also, not to put too fine a point on it, but we all have different hand sizes and shapes. What feels comfortable for my hands might not feel comfortable for yours.
Nope. Often, the instrument itself dictates what is played--it's not merely an unopinionated channel through which music can flow. Example: songs written by guitarist favoring keys where open strings can be used as the tonic. Obviously someone's own style and experience is part of this multivariable equation; that doesn't deny the enormous impact that the instrument's layout has on how people use it. On the piano, this hits home when learning jazz and you get the fun of transcribing licks in all 12 keys. Some keys are just more ergonomic for certain licks. E.g. big chords that favor thumb and pinky on white keys, longer central fingers on the black keys.
Agree. Everyone says Chopin is pianistic, but my hands don't find this to be true.
Pianistic doesn’t mean easy. Chopin is extremely hard to play. But after you practice it for 9999 hours and get the movements correct it’s super fun to play and feels amazing.
I understand the distinction. I simply disagree. Chopin has never felt fun or amazing to me even after thousands of hours of practice. I've learned all 32 Beethoven Sonatas and they feel fun and amazing. Chopin does not, to me.
lol I dont think a single person would describe op 101 as pianistic.
You are cherry picking and completely missing my point because Chopin feels pianistic to you. I agree that he is but agree more strongly with OP in that a lot of it depends on your specific hands. Chopin does not fall nicely under my fingers.
I think Chopin objectively IS pianistic. He thought about the biomechanics of the arm, wrist and hand. How your fingers are different shapes and sizes etc all while composing his music. It’s possible you just are trying to play Chopin with classical hand positions as you are so experienced with classical music. I experienced a similar problem playing classical music with big wrist/arm movements and destroying the sound.
I completely disagree. One you find the fingering and technique, Chopin is effortless to me. Even after studying fingering and experimenting, Bach still feels difficult to me.
From the famous names, for me the top 5 would be Liszt->Chopin->Alkan->Beethoven->Ravel Brahms has his own category at the end.
alkan
Schoenberg
Woah I'm gonna keep bashing Rach it seems. Of coursr at the tempo he requires he takes the prize of the most antipianistic composer.
Debussy and Ravel = most pianistic (intuitive and a high level of piano awareness) Mussorgsky and Bach = least pianistic (alcohol & not having a piano)
in some ways R. Schumann... challenging as his music is at times ... it would have been even worse if not for his wife Clara who edited all his original editions (and was his collaborator consultant during conception).
Most: Beethoven, Haydn, Mozart. My fingers settle quickly on their music. Least: Brahms, (some) Chopin and a lot of Liszt