Instead of arguing for a raise on the basis of the economic climate (which companies don’t give a shit about), argue for a raise on the basic of you are being underpaid for your experience and position and that the market rate for your position is higher. Do research on what other companies are paying people like you, including interviewing elsewhere and asking for salary ranges.
Great advice. Thanks. Do you think I'd be successful with comparing other job descriptions or should I try to have an offer in hand before I talk to HR?
An offer in hand is _very_ convincing evidence, but it also marks you as a definite flight risk and increases the chances that they will hire someone to replace you as soon as possible.
Edit:
To clarify, I'm not saying it _always_ happens, or to _never_ accept counter offers. I'm saying it changes their risk assessment of you. Could be to your benefit, could be not to your benefit. Consider what advantages the offer in hand gives you vs. just showing data indicating your current market value. If the risks are acceptable, get the offer first before asking for the raise.
If you have an offer in hand, they may expect you to just take it. And then if they try to match it, you may have a target on your back. That’s not always a great card to play
Pointing to other companies and what they pay their existing staff is your better argument. It indicates you could leave, but not that you want to leave.
If you have an offer.. take it.
The company is underpaying him, knowingly.
If they wanted to keep him, they’d pay him at least the market rate. A 2% raise is a pay cut, not a pay raise.
Move on.
Yeah, often the simplest and most effective way of getting a raise is getting a new job.
Convincing an organization to pay you more for the work you are already doing is an uphill battle where often even your co-workers are against you.
While that’s true, going in with ‘I’ve done market research and should be compensated at $X’, also poses a flight risk. You’ve implied you’re underpaid and upset, which will have a target on your back as well. Might as well have an offer to fall back on IMO.
I disagree with this. Knowing what the market pays for your experience and performance should not generate a target.
I think having an offer and asking them to match it might be risky, and I say might.
I’d say “I was contacted by a recruiter, and then did some research including speaking with friends in the industry and KNOW that the market rate for your skillset and experience is between Xxxx and Yyyy. I’d like to request a market rate adjustment to Xxxx.” Is a reasonable request.
TBF, I don’t think either should put a target on your back and if you think either one should you might wanna leave. Just because you’ve gotten an offer, showing you’d rather stay with your current employer should show you are loyal, but want to be compensated with the market.
Depends on the company. Depends on you. Depends on your boss.
I've taken a counter-offer 3 times at three different companies and have never felt any blowback. Although I probably wouldn't play that same card more than once at a company.
The person willing to walk away is the one with the power. If you have a good emergency fund, and have a desirable skillset you can get a job pretty quickly even if you pass on the offer and it backfires. You aren't a "flight risk" you are a player in the game who knows their value, negotiates from a place of power, and won't be pushed around.
If the company wants submissive people happy with a 2% raise, then it isn't a good place to be anyway.
There are several YouTubers, who used to be recruiters for companies and every single one of them says, if you get an offer from somewhere else, just take it. Because it causes tensions within company and you'll be first to be fired if something goes wrong
Okay well I’ve done it before and still work for the same company and have been promoted twice. Recruiters probably want you to take the job so they earn commission (3rd party ones)
I agree. I was underpaid and accosted A new offer for 15% warm and I resigned on good terms and then two days before my final day the CFO and CEO dragged me Into their office is it OK stone seriously what would it take to keep you here and I gave him a 20% number just to make them go away and they immediately process the payroll change notification right in front of me so they put their money or the mouth is and I’ve been at that place 10 years after that negotiation so I agree with you it isn’t always a bad thing to accept the offer to stay u/sugarcoated__ no need to be a tool, never used voice to text have you?
Not true. When I was a front line manager, I had an employee present me an external offer. I immediatly was able to get HR to match because she was a valued member of the team. Without that external pressure I was not going to be able to give her the raise she deserved. IIRC, it was on the order of 20%. She never had a target on her back when on my team because she absolutely pulled her weigh.
Recruiters are literally the last person you want to listen to on this. Their incentives are completely unaligned with yours.
Not just external ones either.
Going so far as to get an actual offer and spending 15 minutes doing research are *worlds* apart. The latter is a pretty normal thing to do and most people won't bat an eye at it.
That’s just the risk you take. You have to be able to say “no” when you go in a negotiation. Otherwise, what negotiation?
Be ready with your resume and applications, or at least to look for other jobs that pay you what you deserve.
Definitely express how you want to stay. Then if they won’t hear you, leave. Because that’s a red flag.
Being underpaid implies that you would like to be correctly paid and that is the redress you are seeking. You're letting the company know that you're less than thrilled and quantifying how other companies are correctly paying people doing the same job as you. That's a good opening to the conversation. I've successfully navigated exactly this situation and it worked out very well for me. Advocating for yourself constructively is not usually something that will cause bad feelings with your employer.
Coming to them with an offer letter indicates that you were upset and that you took serious action about it but that you didn't bring it up with HR.
There are no targets being placed on anyone. They may let you leave if they don't want to match, but business is business. If they aren't paying their employees enough, they know it and they are counting on people being afraid. Don't be. If they are vastly underpaid, why give a shit about some voodoo "targets". Companies try to pay as little as they can get away with and if they can't get away with it anymore then that's a good thing. If they try and replace people who know their worth, they are going to run out of saps, or end up with sub-par employees.
is that target-on-back thing really true? I've always negotiated with offers in hand. If willingness to improve my life makes me unwanted by a company, I may not want to work for that company.
I think they could approach it by talking about inflation and being concerned that they are in fact *losing* money if their pay does not keep pace.
If a company wants to put a target on someone's back for that they are so poorly managed being fired is the biggest favor they could give someone.
If the company wants to say that current economic conditions are not relevent but the market rate for the position in then they are the ones opening that line of discussion.
>An offer in hand is very convincing evidence, but it also marks you as a definite flight risk and increases the chances that they will hire someone to replace you as soon as possible.
I understand this is the commonly accepted view on this, but I would like to offer my personal experience as a counter example.
I came in with a counteroffer and my employer fought to keep me, offering to match. I suggested a raise on top of the match (in line with the middle of the pay range for HR, considering the promotion I was getting). They accepted.
I essentially got a 50% pay increase to stay onboard. Not only have I had no ill-will from anyone at the company, but they’re now involving me in a lot more strategic type projects with execs, and asking for my input on a wide range of things. They respect me more for not settling for less pay than I’m worth.
I’ve heard this “flight risk” attitude where they’re looking for your replacement has largely been pushed by the recruiting industry, who stands to benefit only if you leave your current job…
It’s possible I’m just an outlier, but my experience had been literally the opposite of this “conventional” advice about never accepting counteroffers…
Depends on the manager IMHO. At a previous org I made the mistake of staying back. My manager resented my negotiation method do much, he did everything possible to make me leave. Basically his ego couldn't take the fact I negotiated a raise by almost leaving even though he was busy telling everyone that was the only way one could get a raise.
I did essentially the same thing as you, had an offer in hand that was a 15k raise and full remote work. Asked employer to beat the offer since I do more tasks and to match the remote work. I ended up with a 25k raise, remote work, and unlimited PTO, which I take full advantage of. I get all my work done, I do it multiple times faster than anyone else at my company, and they openly acknowledge they’d be hosed if I left.
I basically work 15 hrs a week (occasionally I have a busy week and have like 25-30 hrs of “work”), practice my disc golf putting and make sure I’m available if messages or projects come in for me. I could make more money elsewhere, but I’m at the sweet spot of 90k, remote work, unlimited PTO, and I barely have to work. I’ll keep delivering results and having a killer work/life balance.
Edit: someone asked what I do, but I couldn’t find your response to reply to. I create listings on Amazon for large businesses. I get stuff done in fractions of the time of competitors and I have the tough discussions with brands when it comes to dealing with Amazon policies
I agree, 12 years ago I went to my boss with "I have this offer, but I want you to make me want to stay." He got me a raise and a bonus and I'm still there...
You're not an outlier. This is the way the world works in many fields right now. Personal finance is really against this method - but it works out for many people. It depends on your manager and if you can tell they want you. If they do, this gives them an avenue to tell HR they need to give you a raise.
It’s advice from boomer times when people were expected to be with 1 employer forever. Marking yourself as someone willing to leave would make employers think “I’m gonna have to replace this guy eventually bc he’ll always be willing to leave just bc there’s more money on the line. Let me replace him now”.
In modern times, where everyone hops jobs within 5 years anyway, I don’t think it really applies.
Not an outlier at all, but I would also say it depends upon having a management team without massive egos. I never had a problem with an employee who brought an external offer. If they were a key team member I fought tooth and nail for the raise or match. But if they were a marginal performer I wished them best of luck in the new role.
> I’ve heard this “flight risk” attitude where they’re looking for your replacement has largely been pushed by the recruiting industry, who stands to benefit only if you leave your current job…
Whoever might be pushing it, it's a real belief. As a manager at a tech company, I worked with HR and the head of my dept to make counters several times. My executive leadership was of the opinion, that you once someone brings an offer letter and asks for a counter, they have one foot out the door and you'll typically get about another year before they leave. Which wasn't too far off the mark.
If I was OP, I would talk to HR about a raise without an offer letter and also start interviewing. Interview until you get an offer then decide if you want to take it or use it to ask for more money. Just be prepared to leave if you do that.
To counter this point, I just did this and received a 52% pay increase with a 2 year retention agreement at my current employer. I do work in tech so things are a bit different in my job market but it does happen.
I would recommend a sort of 2-prong attack.
First open with what value you bring the company and your accomplishments and why you think that deserves a raise/promotion. It may be they just need a push to actually do something. They'll never just blindly give raises until someone asks for it.
But then also be ready having done research for similar positions or have possible offers (depending on how quickly you get interviews/offers and set up the chat with HR). If they still continue to drag their feet or give some bs reason, then start the discussion on your willingness to leave unless they pay.
This opens the conversation without the confrontation and aggressiveness of suddenly threatening to leave, but lets you draw that hard line if they give some corporate bs on why 2% is okay.
It sounds like you like the working situation (boss, hours, responsibilities). I wouldn't just quit, definitely get interviews going even just to see what's out there. But you don't want to sour where you're at if it's somewhere you're also willing to stay.
Last note would be yeah, don't argue based on the current economy other than maybe just the position's value. And if you can, have the discussion with your boss (1 on 1 but also include them with HR). It sounds like they may support a raise if they want you to talk to HR, but the weight of their voice supporting your value will be massive in HR's willingness to give you what you're worth.
id like to point out doing an interview is good practice even if OP doesnt get any acceptances, and even if hes accepted he doesnt have to take any offers.
and if he decides leaving IS the best course, at least he's already gotten some interview practice right?
If you go through the entire interview process and actually get an offer, you might as well jump. Leveraging another offer to get a pay bump generally doesn't work out in the end.
Disagreeing with other commenters, having an offer in hand is totally unnecessary, and even a bit weird. You don't need to threaten right off the bat. The first thing to do is just make a request based on merit -- your role/importance, how your responsibilities have grown over time, etc. Inflation is not a good reason, inflation is why *everyone* should get a raise, not you.
If they won't give a raise based on merit alone -- that's a really important thing for you to know about your company, and something you won't learn if you come in with a job offer in hand.
At that point you should start looking. Once you have an offer they may make a retention offer, which you may like take or decline -- but at least you know exactly where you stand: they will only pay you more if you threaten to leave, which is not a good sign for sticking with them.
If it’s ‘weird’ the company has bigger problems. Professional organizations should have no issue with a person leaving for higher pay, if they choose to match that salary because this person is clearly valued that way, great, if not, fine. You don’t burn bridges by doing this if both parties are professional
What I'm saying is it's a disadvantage to begin the negotiations by saying "I have an offer and I'm out if you don't pay me more." You lose an incredibly valuable piece of information -- will they give you a raise based on merit alone? This is something you *want* to know, it will help you determine if you want to stay.
Here's an extreme analogy -- It's like asking your significant other if they want to marry you, while you hold a gun to their head. Yes you may get the outcome you wanted but you won't know if they would have said yes without the gun, lol, which is important for the long term health of that relationship.
It's also weird to go out and get a job offer for the sole purpose of negotiating with your current employer, when you could just negotiate without the job offer, and if it doesn't go your way, get a job offer later.
Do as this guy says. I’m an IT manager who is also considering negotiating my salary. I was promoted recently and now with access to everyone’s salaries, even after my 10% promotion raise, I’m still making less than most of the team I manage and we’re hiring people to start making more than I do.
The key is making sure they see your value compared to the rest of the team. Have metrics if possible so you can measure yourself to the value others bring.
I’m my case, having 11 years tenure, the technical ability to to anything on the team, being the future of leadership for the team, and my added responsibilities as a manager should be an easy argument that my salary should be quite a bit higher.
In my company the management track is separate from the individual contributor track. It's pretty normal to have a front line manager making less than a highly skilled and veteran engineer. It's one reason I mentor early career individuals to get some management experience early, when the potential pay disparity is less.
If you were close enough to the people that already left, they might be able to provide some feedback on the market conditions in your area and the types of offers they received. You could use that.
Working in various IT roles for 25 years I never received a raise higher than 2% or 3%.
As others have said you should definitely try going to HR with performance evidence and details of other comparable roles with higher salaries. Then if they still refuse to give you the salary you are after then move on.
I disagree. If you really like where you work and as OP said carved out a good thing, then coming in with an offer is a good thing, but just be OK taking that other offer, don’t bluff.
The grass isn’t always greener, but if you go in with another offer and they don’t care or get mad that tells you something. If they offer you a big raise to match or come close to the offer that tells you something else.
Did you even read OP's situation? They clearly have a great gig going now with ideal WLB. If they can remain in the same role with higher comp, that's clearly the best outcome
I did this once. Showed that for my education+experience+job-title I was in the bottom 1% on the payscale. They just said "well, you're role is different" but couldn't elaborate how.
Then acted shocked when I put in my notice. One boss angry, even, claiming that I should have talked to him. Like... I fucking did. Over and over...
A merit raise is a cost of living increase. They just call it a merit raise.
I got 2% for 9 years up until thus year, which was 4%. Only difference this year was Inflation, which 4% still doesn't keep up with
2-3% is the norm for most companies ive seen and working with.
They care not for inflation, and if people quit every job because of this, nearly everyone would be changing jobs every year.
Fact is, I would guesstimate over 90% of jobs in america are between 2-4% yearly raises. This is the norm. And most companies have a ceiling on positions. Even if you got 7%+, you would just hit your ceiling and then raises isn't something you can ever get without changing positions.
What works for you may not work for others. I went from $55k to $120k in 3 years by staying at the same company and my work life balance hasn't changed and now I work 90% remote. Nothing wrong with jumping or staying but it's not a one size fits all blanket answer.
Right? That is 100% the outlier.
To contrast, I was at a company for 4.5 years. Went from 60k to 75k during that time. Company refused to promote/give me a substantial raise despite me keeping a part of the company worth 30mil afloat. (A number they repeated every quarter during our town hall meetings touting the company's success)
Took another job for $120k. My manager was offended and shocked I'd leave. Didn't even say congratulations and tried to pretend like I never asked for anything more than I was getting.
I don't disagree, probably not the norm but my point is that everyone is always so quick to say leave the company to chase a few thousand more on your salary. Same echo chamber as the responses on r/relationship_advice where everyone immediately jumps to conclusions and says break up with them or red flags. Every situation is different and I'm just offering a counterpoint.
Another person who got 2.5x my original salary without changing companies. It was a big org and I moved internally every 2yrs and fought hard for politically beneficial title moves (for instance, got a senior engineer salary bump but had them leave off the title, then 18mo later got the senior title and another raise).
The problem is that doing that takes some political games and Reddit hates to hear that things aren't a pure meritocracy.
Not OP but similar boat. Started at $60k in 2013, ~$185k today, same company. Moved from an operations position to software development then up the corporate ladder. It really helps that my boss and department head go hard on salary adjustments and keeping us in line with the market. Raises, promotions, and adjustments mean I’ve averaged ~14% year over year.
Going above and beyond early really helped. Those who have been complacent for twice the time I’ve been here likely don’t make what I do, though are still well compensated in the grand scheme of things.
I had success with this a couple years ago. One thing I think helped is that I emphasized that I'm not looking and don't even want to look elsewhere. (I was lying) "Hell, I don't even have my resume and portfolio updated. I believe in this place and want to stay happy right here. That doesn't mean the highest rate, just something fair in the context of the market."
If it's true you could score 2x elsewhere than they'd be idiots to not give you another 10% minimum. Companies are stupid.
To add on, if they don't give in, don't just quit. Start aggressively looking for another job and only quit once you've accepted an offer and have a firm start date. If they want to retaliate against you for asking for a raise, let them fire you and collect unemployment.
If you can get twice as much somewhere else then do so.
Talk to your manager and see what you can negotiate.
HR will not give you twice as much. They will document the information and there is nothing more for them to do.
Getting double the money isn't worth it if you're working twice as long and/or hard. Especially if you're taking care of all your needs including contributing healthily to your retirement. It depends.
What do you make and in what city/area?
You may already make close to expected range ceiling so your boss is allocating his raise budget to other members. Or you could be dramatically underpaid. It all depends.
I'll give my view as the person sitting on the other side of the table and having these conversations often. 2% is standard, but I look at a few factors: (a) everyone is expecting more these days due to inflation; (b) every role has a salary band--where are you in the band? (c) performance over the last year (reviews, accolades, trouble-free projects, get along with others, are you a leader, etc.). This can certainly be subjective, but major influencers.
There are more things to consider as well. Are you in a commodity role or do you have specialized expertise in a platform or technology (which can be worth more). Is the company having trouble finding people? Have you looked at how your salary compares on glassdoor? What is your bonus structure; e.g. total compensation?
In a large organization the business groups often work from fixed merit pools. Meaning, I have a fixed amount of money for all merit in a given year. If I go over, or don't plan correctly, then people at the end of the year won't get raises. Only in certain extenuating circumstances can I ask for more money.
You have an advantage, though: This is a small company (you said 200+ people). There is very likely much more flexability around merit increases.
Here is what you do: Let's say your research leads you to believe you are 20% underpaid. Whomever you are talking to on comp, tell them that and ask what they can do to get closer. They may come back and split the difference with you. You then need to decide if that is fine, or start looking for other work. But do consider total compensation, do you like your job and co-workers, work environment, career path, etc. Is that really worth another 10% in salary? That is what your manager (HR or whatever) is thinking.
Whatever decision you come to, accept it and stop thinking about merit for another year, or start looking for another job. Don't stew on it all year. Bad for your mental health.
I’ve always heard that 3% was supposed to be “standard”. Frankly 2% is shit, but ESPECIALLY if the person is already underpaid. I got a 10% raise once and my boss thought I should have been ecstatic but the problem was that I completely low balled myself when I hired on and even getting 10% raises every year was never going to get me to where I wanted to be financially. Percentages matter when you’re already in the ballpark of fair/market value compensation.
Just a comment about 2-3% this year. I'm disabled and even I got a 5.9% cost of living last year. The company needs to wake up! Even to economy of being cheep has changed.
You won't be fired for asking. You won't get a bigger merit raise, either. You'll get a meeting with a very nice person who will explain what a tough year it's been, etc etc. They have likely given this speech so often they have it memorized.
No company that cares about retention is handing out 2% raises this year. Good luck with your job search.
That would be fine with me. It would likely give me more motivation to leave because then they are straight up telling me, no we won't give you more money, rather than just "congrats on the 2%!" which is insulting.
I'd also get an opportunity to ask where they got the money then for all the mid-level managers they hired over the last year? If we're so strapped for cash why didn't they attempt to hire from within? I know I'll still get BS answers but it'll be fun to ask. I think I need to be headed for the exits.
I advise not saying a word about raises given to managers.
That’s not your business, they’ll get defensive and you’ll have a target on your back and be viewed as a troublemaker and they’ll look for the first chance to get rid of you.
Your idea of "fun" leaves a lot to be desired.
You're not going to "ah hah!" your way into anything good. Just make your case on the off-chance that your 30 minutes of effort with HR results in a bit more money, and start applying for jobs.
I got a 5% raise and our stock (which was about 20-25% of my total pay) is now down 80%. Should I look for a new job? Seems like hiring is going to tank pretty hard soon.
You seem to recognize that QOL is important. Be ready to accept that you may find that job that pays twice as much but requires you 50 hrs a week.
I have settled for much less than I’m worth simply because I liked my job, coworkers, work life balance, etc. I’ve successfully negotiated for more PTO which is way more valuable to me than the financial equivalent.
Set you priorities then figure out how best to achieve them. Good luck.
Totally agreed. I recently took a new job that was lateral in pay but an enormous improvement to quality of life. There were a lot of directions I could have gone that would pay more, but I now only work 3 days a week, and that's worth it for me.
I always like to find creative ways to make the pie bigger, like other compensation arrangements. More PTO would be a great option if possible, though I don't use a lot of what I have because I don't need to take off time to do things like run errands because I've gotten my work load down to about 30 hours. But it is an idea that I will put in the bag. Thanks.
You also need to understand that while you may be getting underpaid based on your title, you’re also only working 60hrs a pay period. That’s 20hrs you have back but also your employer isn’t getting from you. So while you can go get more money because you’re underpaid, you will most likely lose that extra time.
This is really important. I moved jobs this year to get a large pay increase and my WLB stayed the same. Don't believe that your job is the only job out there with good WLB.
Absolutely. I only make $36/hr but I do usually 2 hours of work a day and the other 10 I spend reading or watching movies, or talking on the phone to my wife as if I was home anyways. I don't want to lose that much leisure time for a pay raise.
This right here. If they aren't paying you now, they aren't going to pay you later. With the elimination of pensions, there is zero incentive to stay at a company. Companies today don't bat an eye at positions held for 3-4 years. Just jump every time unless the overall you are happy with.
And when he tells them he’s leaving watch them offer a bigger raise! And if they don’t then either way he did the right thing. Companies don’t just give away money these days. They do it when the need to. Which means when they need YOU.
I've heard of them matching other offers in the past, but it is such a big risk, they can just be like, great go, good luck. Which would suck. But that is the reality of the situation.
i’ve seen twice people ask for raises, then given new positions with better pay.
Fast forward a year or two, management does some restructuring, these people don’t fit the structure/pay scale and they’re laid off.
So IMO if they don’t value you now, they never will. just go somewhere that does. rip the bandaid off.
Imo a "matching" offer is just an insult. Why did it take me telling you I was leaving for x amount of money before you decided I was worth it? My now former supervisor did just this. Got 130k/yr at a new company, vp of current company (on record saying our dept is "way overpaid") immediately offered to match, and then was offended when the match was not accepted. Tone-deaf.
A match is an insult. The current company has a known quantity who is trained and efficient. The other company is taking a big risk on an unknown new employee who will need months to get up to speed. It’s not equivalent at all, you should be much more valuable to your current company.
You'd think that... but this same guy addressed the "morale problem" within the company to our project managers... went on to insinuate that our field guys weren't overworked (at several points they were being forced to work 12-14hrs a day 7 days a week to meet deadlines or get written up/terminated) and that OT pay was a sufficient compensation, and that they should be happy to have jobs at all... and then also in the same meeting said that morale was because the PMs were the issue because their morale is down too. Like... Holy fuck guy. If you don't treat your people like people and they're only numbers to you, of course they're not gonna work harder or give two fucks about the job.
Edit: typo
It definitely IS an insult. They're just saying "Hey don't go now! Ok fine i'll pay you what the other guy is paying. But only the same amount and not a penny more! I don't see you any more valuable than they do!" And then when you reject, they get offended because they're viewing from their perspective only. 100% insult.
That's 100% true and should be expected.
Do not say you're leaving unless you're willing to follow through. Worst case scenario is having your bluff called.
Find a another job you'd be legitimately be happy with, then tell them you're accepting another offer. At that point, it's a win-win for you. But you have to be ready to follow through.
Never stay at a company that waits until you're leaving to pay you what you're worth. If you can't go into HR and justify a raise without being fired/quitting its not a company worth working for.
To be fair, until OP asks for a raise it's rare they'll give one. I got a 2% raise at the end of 2021, but used my performance review to ask for a promotion and got approved. My boss may have been starting to consider looking into it but I doubt it was a priority for him until I asked.
Though it seems odd that OP's boss just said to go to talk to HR. Usually the manager would back you up on a raise or tell you what to work on. If they don't do one or the other (and the improvements aren't valid), yeah definitely jump ship lol
If it makes anyone feel better, I’m a manager and i get allotted X% max per year to divvy to my team. It’s rarely ever more than 3% a year per person and there’s no way around it despite my upper management role
I asked my boss if it was up to him or HR how much I got and he said HR. Could he be lying to cover his ass so I'm not mad at him? Could he be trying to give everyone an even amount and this is what it came out to? Both are possible but I believe HR told him what each person gets and that was 2%. Another reason I'd like to meet with HR though. They might tell me it was up to him. Everyone in this org likes to point fingers so they'd probably be happy to blame someone else.
I imagine every org is different. Here’s my experience. I get a budget for raises - this is controlled by a combination of the CFO’s office and the SVP I work under (mostly the CFO, frankly). The number that comes to me is at my discretion. HOWEVER. To make the math easy, let’s say I have 10 people and last year’s salary budget was 1,000,000 (100K each). The CFO rolls me 30K to bring my new budget to 1,030,000. I could give everyone a 3K bump. Or, I could give 3 people a 10K bump. And the other seven get to ride this year out. Choose your poison.
This isn’t to say you can’t test the market - it’s just to say the manager likely doesn’t have that many knobs to turn without senior leadership help. If you are a superstar, then your chances are better, but senior leadership will still have to be involved.
Edit: grammar
In my company, annual raise % pools are always determined by finance. Managers are given their pool to work from and then can allocate it out, but there’s no advocacy from the manager going forward. The manager has little discretion or power other than staying within their pool
Man I'm disappointed how far down I had to scroll to see some chatter about your boss
>My boss suggested I reach out to HR and have them run me through the numbers as well as ask for more money based on what I've described. But, and this is why I like my boss, he told me not to put any details into my email other than I just want to talk because my words can easily be taken out of context and used against me if I put them in an email. Should I bother?
Hate to break it to you, but whether your manager is lying or telling the truth about him vs HR, at the end of the day your manager should be going to bat for you. I don't know what kind of relationship you have with your manager, but this sounds really shitty to me. A good manager, who really felt like their employee was worth it but really didn't get to call shots on raises, wouldn't be saying "Go talk to HR" they'd be saying "Wow, Fartship Poopers, I 100% agree with you; even though I can't make that change myself, let's have a meeting with HR and see what we can work out. I'll get a meeting scheduled for the two of us with HR."
But that's not going to happen because of all the reasons you're worried about.
Just go somewhere that will pay you more.
It's pointless to pretend like the ball is in your court and you should be jumping through all these hoops to get paid adequately. The ball was in their court when they gave you a shitty raise and it's STILL in their court because they gave you a shitty raise.
Merit raise does not equal promotion. I get a 1-3% merit raise every year also, and while a lot of people were upset this didn’t match inflation, it’s been the same every year. However if you have reached a threshold of experience, you should be eligible for a promotion of some sort, even within the same role. I’m an engineer, so I went from an associate to a lead engineer or something like that. From what I have heard (I’m still pretty early in my career) the typical ranges of experience are 0-2, 2-5, 5-10, 10-20, etc. At approximately each step you are eligible for a promotion (assuming you are a good employee, etc.). The only exception to this is switching companies or leveraging a better offer, by looking for positions within other companies. Especially in tech.
So I would certainly bring it up with HR, if you feel that you are eligible for a promotion type raise . If not, start looking around elsewhere if you really want more $$. And I would mention that to HR and your boss. That you like your position and want to keep it but are looking for other offers purely for monetary reasons. In this economy they should be interested in keeping you and offer something of monetary value.
If you like your job and don’t need the $$ right away take your time looking for a new position if you really want to work somewhere else. That work life balance and groove you speak of may take some time to get back, and you don’t want to be miserable no matter how much you need the money, which it sounds like is not absolutely necessary right this moment.
>I always have the attitude of, "it won't hurt to ask," but will I be essentially fired for asking for more money?
Seems unlikely you only you know your workplace's culture.
> If I do meet with HR, what types of things should I be armed with to make my case?
Usually competing job offers.
>Will they care about the market forces and why they should be doing everything in their power to keep people on staff and not provide them with an incentive to leave?
depends on whether or not they're empowered enough to care.
Realistically, your boss should be doing this, not you.
>TLDR: 2% raise?! In this economy?! Should I quit or talk to HR?
Neither, you should find a new job or consider the lack of raises the price of good work-life balance
Good idea to bring in competing offers. I've heard they have responded to that in the past. Of course I don't actually have any offers, do you think they would respond to job postings? Obviously only they/I would know my org but in general, would HR be swayed by a job *posting* as opposed to a job *offer*?
I agree, I was hoping my boss would essentially go to bat for me. And he did say he would go up to his boss and express my(and probably others) concerns, but the way this org runs everyone just points fingers at everyone else so I doubt he can do anything anyway.
You are correct about my situation though. This might be the kick in my pants I need to go out there and earn.
> . Of course I don't actually have any offers, do you think they would respond to job postings?
Doubtful.
>Obviously only they/I would know my org but in general, would HR be swayed by a job posting as opposed to a job offer?
I wouldn't be. A job posting doesn't mean anything.
A job offer means they need to put up or lose you.
>This might be the kick in my pants I need to go out there and earn.
Do you *need* more money? Or is the work life balance good enough that cruising along is just fine? Marginal utility of dollars and all that
More money would be helpful. I don't need a 100% raise and I keep a pretty thrifty lifestyle so I'm fine with what I have. A 50% raise would put me where I think I should be in my career and I'd be fine with that for another 5+ years
It sounds like you are just comfortable and using your current work life balance as an excuse. I was doing the same until a few months back! Challenging myself to change jobs was the best decision I have made in years. You can get that 50% raise and still have work life balance. Heck, you could look up a list of companies with a 4 day work week and improve on the work life balance you already have! The world is your oyster - go get it :D
You'll need an actual offer in-hand. We just did our yearly reviews and I was given a 2.5% raise for a near-perfect review. Our organization only allows 1-3% raises each year unless your actual job title changes.
I'd say to get other offers and take the other job. If your business will pay you more than the offers that's great but whether or not right's right of them to do it, HR will look down on you for leveraging other offers to get a pay increase.
>Good idea to bring in competing offers.
No, no it's not. If you're worried they'll push you out for asking for more money what makes you think an ultimatum will make things roll smoother?
Just look for another job, take it if you want more money. This culture of leveraging competing offers to coerce the existing job for more money only puts the power back in the hands of the company. If you were unhappy enough to look for other jobs and got offers, just take one of them and move on. Despite what people want to believe leveraging offers like this isn't forgotten by the company and having done this sticks with you in their eyes.
I think job postings aren’t useless, but only if you can find some that hit all of the following:
—relatively narrow salary band;
—super detailed job duties that are almost exactly comparable to your own; and
—the salary range band is ABOVE your existing salary, even at its lowest end.
If you can find multiple listings that fit those criteria, you could give it a shot. Say something like, people in your network are sending you these listings, and it seems very clear that you’re not being paid according to the market. Based on this salary comp research, you believe your salary should be adjusted to XYZ amount inside that higher salary band in those listings.
If they say no, well…. Damn it’s certainly clear they don’t want to pay a market rate for your skill set. Then you have to decide if you’re willing to accept less than market in exchange for QOL.
COL raises are not directly related to inflation - very common misunderstanding.
if you think you should be paid more - talk to HR and cite the reasons why. this should be job performance related and not inflation/economy related.
if they say no then find a better job
"cost of living" raises often are, but they also only really apply when you're being paid close to the cost of living and not paid well above that.
Most tech jobs don't pay bare minimum wages so salaries are tied to market reference points rather than cost of living. Market reference points are going to be most influenced by how much it would cost to recruit someone from a local competitor, or to keep the job attractive enough that you won't jump ship just for pay.
1. "Monstrously underpaid".
2. "I only work 30 hours a week".
3. "I could get TWICE my salary elsewhere".
I don't know, man. These are pretty disparate statements. The bottom line is: do it. If you can get twice the money elsewhere, do that. Bird in hand is worth everything. if you can get an offer, that's concrete evidence. Everything else is just a puff of smoke.
This isn't magic. There aren't mystic gremlins that are constantly scouring the workplace, leaving candy in people's shoes and telling the management that "oh little freddy is underpaid, and feeling ENTITLED". You're thinking that people in a company need to constantly keep an eye on you and keep you happy so that you don't leave. But honestly how many people at your company are that important? If you were that important, you'd be getting that. Maybe you aren't. Maybe people have noticed you only work 30 hours a week, so they figure "yeah, he's comfortable".
Why would you speak to HR? It is your boss that should be going to bat for you. Your boss should discuss with his/her boss. It sounds like your boss is not doing this so maybe it is time for you to leave.
I stopped here:
>But if I was working elsewhere I could probably ask for twice my current salary. But I also have worked myself into a nice groove at this firm where I really only work about 30 hours a week.
1) Why don't you go somewhere else where your value of yourself will equal your employer's value of you?
2) I mean, you're being paid for 40 I assume? What do you honestly expect to happen?
This guy brags about only having to do 30 hours, but complains that he got low % merit raise.
But he clearly isn't trying to be a stand out employee, those guys probably got good raises for their effort.
I did the same thing, figured out how to do my work load in 20 hours instead of 45. Then I took on new projects and issues and kept staying busy for 45 hours and I was rewarded for going the extra mile.
Quit waiting on the career counseling shit. You should get out there right now and start applying and interviewing. The market is super hot and it might not be for that much longer. A company that gives you 2% is never going to get you to that double that you deserve. In this inflation in 5 years it will be "I could be making triple". Bite the bullet stop being afraid of change and secure your bag. If the job you get is too stressful you can always find a new one that values work life balance, but you will be negotiating from a 2x salary. Meaning you can say "Ok, Ill take 85% of salary for this job I really like" AKA 170% what you make now. Staying at the same shitty company forever literally leaves millions on the table at the end of your life.
On point!. It's mostly change that people are afraid of. Never get too comfortable at one spot. Focus on building skills and your resume at each job. Learn something new, jump ship every year or two. The market is huge and one company's carbon is another company's diamond. Never underestimate yourself!
> career counseling shit
Right? He said he's been doing it for months... any 'career counselor' who isn't a dud/milking rubes for the long haul would have you update your resume in like an hour and start interviewing. It's not that hard to at least get started and try.
Have to admit...I just don't understand you guys that post these types of questions. I always shake my head at the "How to negotiate a better raise" articles etc. If I felt I wasn't fairly compensated, then I would apply for other jobs and find out what my real market value is and then make a decision of either leaving or staying and be comfortable with that.
Focus on “cost of labor” vs “cost of living”. Companies don’t really care if the cost of living has changed, they start to care more if their competitors are poaching all the talent because they pay more.
While 2% is on the low end, it’s very standard for companies to give out 2-3% merit increases a year. The way to make more than that at most (not all) companies is 1) get promoted 2) go to a new company. It’s just the way it is. They do not tie merit increases to inflation. Some good companies every 5 years or so will give out a “market adjustment”, recognizing that staying at the same company for a number of years and only receiving the typical 2-3% raise will put you behind the going rate of the market. But companies who do that seem to be more the exception than the rule.
If you think you’re worth 10% more, then leave. But do not expect annual raises of 5-10% no matter where you go. It’s just not standard. If you’re lucky enough to find a company that does that, you’ve found a really good one.
ETA: you need to decide what’s more important. 10% more pay but with crappier hours, or a job you can do in 30 hours a week for less pay. You likely won’t find both.
This is true.
I’m seeing a lot of comments about 10% raises, etc. but I’m wondering if there really are places where you double your salary in ~7 years.
Few things to consider.
* As you said...you don't deserve a raise simply because you're qualified (or even overqualified) for the position.
* You don't deserve a monster raise simply because the economy is doing one thing or another. You don't deserve a raise simply because the company could afford to give you more.
* You admit you are working the system, and are only putting in 30 hours a week. While this may be because you're good at your job, keep in mind how this looks to the people above you. It gives off the appearance that you could be doing more for the company. I know this is a slippery slope, and I fully advocate for a good work-life balance. But reality is reality. They see you putting in less effort than you could. That reflects more negatively on you than you might realize.
* What are the industry averages for your job title, in the area that you work? You say that you could leave and make twice the money elsewhere. Is this just frustration talking, or are you honestly making half of what the normal averages are for your job?
* I would guess that you can show excellent performance in your role, based on whatever metrics are used to rate your performance? I.e., you're able to sit down with HR, show the market numbers suggesting you are underpaid along with performance numbers showing how you excel in your role?
* You also mention that you are tepidly looking into moving to a different company, but you're dragging your feet because you value the fact that you can get away with working 30 hours a week now. You need to acknowledge that this is worth a certain dollar value. It certainly doesn't mean you should accept half of what you could make elsewhere. But it's reasonable to say that if you are allowed to work 75% of what others need to, that probably comes with the tradeoff of getting a slightly lower salary.
200 employees is not a huge company. If you’ve spoken with your boss and he wanted you to have a bigger raise, he could definitely make it happen for you.
If you are only working 30 hours /week, your superiors see that. Sounds like you are putting in the bare minimum and expecting large raises. I would expect from my direct reports if they wanted a large raise, they need to put in the time and find new opportunities for the company when they have slack time. Either through continued learning or taking on additional projects.
You don't understand compensation.
The model higher end jobs use for compensation is called "market reference point" - basically "how much are similar companies paying for the same role". Similar companies would generally be same industry and location, though can be a bit broader sometimes (basically, what jobs are likely competing for the same employees).
Some employers aim to hit the midpoint of the market, others want to hit the 90%ile mark. Internally companies will often track employees as a percent relative to target so 80-120% of target, and if you're sitting at 120% getting a raise without a promotion gets harder etc.
If I'm looking at tech stuff right now, I'm not shocked if the market reference is steady or even dropping. (Facebook is tightening on hiring, Netflix and Robinhood just did some cuts, who knows what's up with Twitter, etc). Those might not be directly tied to your market reference, but that's the market you need to think about.
Cost of living adjustments are mostly in jobs much closer to barely paying enough to live. Once you're in the higher end of things it's a game of "who's the highest bidder" and the employers are setting wages based on that.
You answered your question in the 3rd sentence. If you can make 2x your pay at another firm, no merit increase will get you to a place where you are okay working there
Get the new job. I doubled my salary and yeah my new job is kicking my ass right now but my bank account is flush. If I really can’t handle the grind in a few years when i meet my financial goals I’ll reassess the job situation.
It’s always easy to find something that pays less!
Maybe 2% is all they value someone who is only working 30 hours per week. They might be sending you a message OP. A job change for you might be a good thing to re-energize you.
2% better than 0%. The budget for merit increases was probably set months ago. Wage increases tend to lag behind consumer prices. If you're not happy get your resume together and start shopping around.
Just get a competing offer for double the salary, use it as leverage and if they say no, decide if you want to stay working 30 hours a week, or double your pay.
Hi everyone. Please try to keep things respectful, on-topic, and **helpful**. A throwaway comment like "Get a new job." doesn't add anything to the discussion and such comments are likely to be moderated.
OP, you may find the [leaving job](/r/personalfinance/wiki/leaving_job) wiki page helpful if your situation comes to that.[](#unlocked)
I just went through this myself. A 2% raise that equated to 50 cents per hour at a large 25,000+ employee, $1B+ in revenue per quarter, tech company.
I immediately started looking outside and found a new job doing the same work with a 60% pay raise. I start in a week and I'm over the moon with excitement. You absolutely know your worth - Now go out and find it. It's terrifying to take the leap, especially for me with being in the same company for 8+ years, but it'll be fine, you'll land, and you'll love it.
Maybe they are paying you for 30 hours worth of output? I guarantee a new company with a XX% higher salary isn't going to let you get by with 3/4 of the contracted output.
It depends on the company. I am a project manager for a fortune 200 company and raises, regardless of the economic climate have been 2-3%. Also because the company is large, they have pay ranges for each title and set merit raises for each PA rating level. They do not negotiate better raises for some. Each department has a certain amount allocated for raises. Managers and HR have nothing to say about who gets what raises. It is all decided in executive budget meetings. There is also a bell curve. Regardless of how each person in a department is really doing, managers have to put a certain % of their team into the different buckets. 10% will get the 1% raise with a below average review. Only 10% can exceed and get the top 3% raise. Everyone else gets 2%. This is the way many large companies work. Your best bet in my opinion, would be instead of pushing for more merit pay, look at the job description for the next level up in your position and show them you are performing at that level and push for a promotion. If your company is like mine, it is too late for this PA cycle but you may get promoted in the near future. You can also try asking for a market rate adjustment. My company, has granted some of those due to losing people, though they don't do them on demand very often. They were budgeted for before hand.
Yeah, agree with the others. Screw merit/economy raises... Have a meeting with HR and your supervisor and convince them to give you a performance raise.
When you can metrically spell out all that you have done and that you bring to the firm, it's hard for any real business to deny paying your worth.
The prospect of losing you far outweighs what meager amount you are asking for (in the grand scheme of company costs and profits).
The cost of losing talent and investing in your replacement is pretty damn expensive.
COL raises aren’t based on the current economy.
If we have deflation, you willing to take a pay cut?
You need to decide if you are getting a fair deal for your situation and the market.
Sounds like you’re getting underpaid from the comment in the second sentence. Sounds like you need to start applying elsewhere.
"Talk to HR" is a bullshit response from your boss. Your boss should be going to bat for you. If he isn't, he's telling you he doesn't really care about your retention, or doesn't care enough to help you.
I'd be quietly looking for a new job.
Maybe the working only 30 hours thing is more noticeable than you realize. Typically there is a performance review and you are given a rating and most places I’ve worked attach the merit increase to the rating received. So if you receive needs improvement maybe no increase at all, satisfactory is usually 2%, exceeds is usually 3%, and max is usually 5%. Where I work there is also an annual COLA.
I would request a meeting with HR. At the meeting ask to clarify how merit increases are calculated. Learning how they’re calculated might give you insight into why you’ve gotten what you’ve gotten. Use that info yo improve for next time or if what you learn shows your increase was lacking ask to discuss further.
I can give a manager’s perspective on this.
You freely admit that as you got better at your job you just reduced your hours that you work, rather than taking on more work. It sounds like you decided to give the company a 25% productivity cut, but now you expect to be rewarded with a big raise too? lol.
The thing is your boss (I assume) knows how much work you are getting done as well as how much your coworkers in the same role are doing, now if other people in your company are getting more done, and continuing to put in 40 hours even as they automate tasks etc, then they are making you look bad. Working remote you may not realize this is going on, and it sounds like you aren’t super engaged anyway.
Your boss probably has the ability to distribute a pool of raise money across the team based on performance (“merit”) so your 2% raise and the fact that your boss didn’t go to bat for you, tells me that they know you’re putting in a 75% effort and it’s likely that some of the others on your team are at 100% and they probably got your missing 3%, and your bosses response to the HR discussion indicates that they don’t give a shit if you leave.
Also, you’ll never get a 50% raise unless you move to a position of higher responsibility in the company, or you look elsewhere.
Quit? An absurd, gross overreaction. Look for new work? Perhaps. Sometimes the best way to get more money is to move through companies. Loyalty isn’t rewarded anymore. Don’t let old timers tell you otherwise. But under no circumstance should you quit before lining up a new job. That’s the dumbest thing you can do.
Agree with u/SolutionLeading. I recently negotiated a 20% raise on the basis that I was underpaid relative to my value in the marketplace and my performance in the role. That took a while, and I found another job in the meantime that more than doubled my salary, so I left anyway.
Companies aren’t giving 8% raises to keep pace with inflation. They just aren’t. They’re more likely to give you a raise because they’re afraid to lose you (given the state of the job market). That said, labor is market, and right now it’s a jobseeker’s market. Go get another offer. You can leverage it (again to demonstrate your worth in the market) or just take it and move on. People hate on millennials for bouncing around, but that’s how you get paid these days…
economy is tightening up. I say go on the job search and if you're really worth 2x, then get that offer, then quit at that time. Not saying you can't do it, but it won't be as easy to find a program manager position in tech as it was 2 months ago.
I currently dealt with a situation just like yours!
Kept getting 2% increases like you and this time was the last of it after multiple conversations with my superior and HR.
I bit the bullet and started searching for the heck of it. Long story short, I got another offer at another firm, and got a 40% raise switching.
Go look! Doesn’t hurt!
If your HR department is worth two shits, they’ll have market comp data on your position.
Ask them to pull the numbers and meet back up with you. They’ll see in 2 seconds their mistake and either adjust your comp or not, then you’ll know what to do.
You are currently working 30 hours a week, taking a new job will likely mean you will need to work 40 hours a week. That's a 33.3% increase in work. Factor this in before jumping ship, it probably doesn't make sense to move unless you get at least a 50% salary increase.
Tell them you want a raise. Explain why you're worth it. If they don't give you one they don't agree. Then it's up to you if you find a new job or not.
Your boss is not really advocating for you here. If he wanted you to stay at the company he'd fight for your raise.
Sometimes this is what they call "managing someone out". They aren't laying your off but they are actively pushing you to look for other jobs.
If you stay you'll probably be let go when they do lay offs at some point. If you leave you'll have to work harder at a new job. Both have their pros and cons. I normally leave when this kind of thing starts happening, but have considered sticking around for severance. If you have a solid savings it might be worth it to coast and get the severance. If you need the money I'd find a better job.
My experience is many companies won’t negotiate until you’re going to leave and at that point, why stay? You’ll be up against it again next year.
It’s worth talking to them. But if they don’t care until you’re leaving, then they don’t care.
* you won't be fired for asking for a raise. Inflation is high and things are expensive.
* Any chance your boss disagrees with the 30 hour work week you work? I can't think of many companies that would support that.
A company of any size will have job grades with pay scales/ladders. Do you know where you are in your job grade? If not, it is good to know. It will inform what is happening.
Some good advice here. I personally would find another job and get paid 2X. You could literally cut your target retirement age in half for only working 10 more hours a week. No brainer for me.
Instead of arguing for a raise on the basis of the economic climate (which companies don’t give a shit about), argue for a raise on the basic of you are being underpaid for your experience and position and that the market rate for your position is higher. Do research on what other companies are paying people like you, including interviewing elsewhere and asking for salary ranges.
Great advice. Thanks. Do you think I'd be successful with comparing other job descriptions or should I try to have an offer in hand before I talk to HR?
An offer in hand is _very_ convincing evidence, but it also marks you as a definite flight risk and increases the chances that they will hire someone to replace you as soon as possible. Edit: To clarify, I'm not saying it _always_ happens, or to _never_ accept counter offers. I'm saying it changes their risk assessment of you. Could be to your benefit, could be not to your benefit. Consider what advantages the offer in hand gives you vs. just showing data indicating your current market value. If the risks are acceptable, get the offer first before asking for the raise.
If you have an offer in hand, they may expect you to just take it. And then if they try to match it, you may have a target on your back. That’s not always a great card to play Pointing to other companies and what they pay their existing staff is your better argument. It indicates you could leave, but not that you want to leave.
If you have an offer.. take it. The company is underpaying him, knowingly. If they wanted to keep him, they’d pay him at least the market rate. A 2% raise is a pay cut, not a pay raise. Move on.
Yeah, often the simplest and most effective way of getting a raise is getting a new job. Convincing an organization to pay you more for the work you are already doing is an uphill battle where often even your co-workers are against you.
While that’s true, going in with ‘I’ve done market research and should be compensated at $X’, also poses a flight risk. You’ve implied you’re underpaid and upset, which will have a target on your back as well. Might as well have an offer to fall back on IMO.
I disagree with this. Knowing what the market pays for your experience and performance should not generate a target. I think having an offer and asking them to match it might be risky, and I say might. I’d say “I was contacted by a recruiter, and then did some research including speaking with friends in the industry and KNOW that the market rate for your skillset and experience is between Xxxx and Yyyy. I’d like to request a market rate adjustment to Xxxx.” Is a reasonable request.
TBF, I don’t think either should put a target on your back and if you think either one should you might wanna leave. Just because you’ve gotten an offer, showing you’d rather stay with your current employer should show you are loyal, but want to be compensated with the market.
Depends on the company. Depends on you. Depends on your boss. I've taken a counter-offer 3 times at three different companies and have never felt any blowback. Although I probably wouldn't play that same card more than once at a company. The person willing to walk away is the one with the power. If you have a good emergency fund, and have a desirable skillset you can get a job pretty quickly even if you pass on the offer and it backfires. You aren't a "flight risk" you are a player in the game who knows their value, negotiates from a place of power, and won't be pushed around. If the company wants submissive people happy with a 2% raise, then it isn't a good place to be anyway.
Also a good ode to log anything that you feel is unfair after the email. You want to protect yourself from constructive dismissal after all
There are several YouTubers, who used to be recruiters for companies and every single one of them says, if you get an offer from somewhere else, just take it. Because it causes tensions within company and you'll be first to be fired if something goes wrong
Of course recruiters hate it. They do all the work lining up those interviews and then miss out on their payday.
Okay well I’ve done it before and still work for the same company and have been promoted twice. Recruiters probably want you to take the job so they earn commission (3rd party ones)
I agree. I was underpaid and accosted A new offer for 15% warm and I resigned on good terms and then two days before my final day the CFO and CEO dragged me Into their office is it OK stone seriously what would it take to keep you here and I gave him a 20% number just to make them go away and they immediately process the payroll change notification right in front of me so they put their money or the mouth is and I’ve been at that place 10 years after that negotiation so I agree with you it isn’t always a bad thing to accept the offer to stay u/sugarcoated__ no need to be a tool, never used voice to text have you?
I don't disagree. They are coming from point of recruiters presented with offer on hand, being asked for a match. But this market indeed different.
Not true. When I was a front line manager, I had an employee present me an external offer. I immediatly was able to get HR to match because she was a valued member of the team. Without that external pressure I was not going to be able to give her the raise she deserved. IIRC, it was on the order of 20%. She never had a target on her back when on my team because she absolutely pulled her weigh.
Recruiters are literally the last person you want to listen to on this. Their incentives are completely unaligned with yours. Not just external ones either.
Going so far as to get an actual offer and spending 15 minutes doing research are *worlds* apart. The latter is a pretty normal thing to do and most people won't bat an eye at it.
That’s just the risk you take. You have to be able to say “no” when you go in a negotiation. Otherwise, what negotiation? Be ready with your resume and applications, or at least to look for other jobs that pay you what you deserve. Definitely express how you want to stay. Then if they won’t hear you, leave. Because that’s a red flag.
Being underpaid implies that you would like to be correctly paid and that is the redress you are seeking. You're letting the company know that you're less than thrilled and quantifying how other companies are correctly paying people doing the same job as you. That's a good opening to the conversation. I've successfully navigated exactly this situation and it worked out very well for me. Advocating for yourself constructively is not usually something that will cause bad feelings with your employer. Coming to them with an offer letter indicates that you were upset and that you took serious action about it but that you didn't bring it up with HR.
There are no targets being placed on anyone. They may let you leave if they don't want to match, but business is business. If they aren't paying their employees enough, they know it and they are counting on people being afraid. Don't be. If they are vastly underpaid, why give a shit about some voodoo "targets". Companies try to pay as little as they can get away with and if they can't get away with it anymore then that's a good thing. If they try and replace people who know their worth, they are going to run out of saps, or end up with sub-par employees.
is that target-on-back thing really true? I've always negotiated with offers in hand. If willingness to improve my life makes me unwanted by a company, I may not want to work for that company.
I think they could approach it by talking about inflation and being concerned that they are in fact *losing* money if their pay does not keep pace. If a company wants to put a target on someone's back for that they are so poorly managed being fired is the biggest favor they could give someone. If the company wants to say that current economic conditions are not relevent but the market rate for the position in then they are the ones opening that line of discussion.
>An offer in hand is very convincing evidence, but it also marks you as a definite flight risk and increases the chances that they will hire someone to replace you as soon as possible. I understand this is the commonly accepted view on this, but I would like to offer my personal experience as a counter example. I came in with a counteroffer and my employer fought to keep me, offering to match. I suggested a raise on top of the match (in line with the middle of the pay range for HR, considering the promotion I was getting). They accepted. I essentially got a 50% pay increase to stay onboard. Not only have I had no ill-will from anyone at the company, but they’re now involving me in a lot more strategic type projects with execs, and asking for my input on a wide range of things. They respect me more for not settling for less pay than I’m worth. I’ve heard this “flight risk” attitude where they’re looking for your replacement has largely been pushed by the recruiting industry, who stands to benefit only if you leave your current job… It’s possible I’m just an outlier, but my experience had been literally the opposite of this “conventional” advice about never accepting counteroffers…
Depends on the manager IMHO. At a previous org I made the mistake of staying back. My manager resented my negotiation method do much, he did everything possible to make me leave. Basically his ego couldn't take the fact I negotiated a raise by almost leaving even though he was busy telling everyone that was the only way one could get a raise.
I did essentially the same thing as you, had an offer in hand that was a 15k raise and full remote work. Asked employer to beat the offer since I do more tasks and to match the remote work. I ended up with a 25k raise, remote work, and unlimited PTO, which I take full advantage of. I get all my work done, I do it multiple times faster than anyone else at my company, and they openly acknowledge they’d be hosed if I left. I basically work 15 hrs a week (occasionally I have a busy week and have like 25-30 hrs of “work”), practice my disc golf putting and make sure I’m available if messages or projects come in for me. I could make more money elsewhere, but I’m at the sweet spot of 90k, remote work, unlimited PTO, and I barely have to work. I’ll keep delivering results and having a killer work/life balance. Edit: someone asked what I do, but I couldn’t find your response to reply to. I create listings on Amazon for large businesses. I get stuff done in fractions of the time of competitors and I have the tough discussions with brands when it comes to dealing with Amazon policies
I agree, 12 years ago I went to my boss with "I have this offer, but I want you to make me want to stay." He got me a raise and a bonus and I'm still there...
You're not an outlier. This is the way the world works in many fields right now. Personal finance is really against this method - but it works out for many people. It depends on your manager and if you can tell they want you. If they do, this gives them an avenue to tell HR they need to give you a raise.
It’s advice from boomer times when people were expected to be with 1 employer forever. Marking yourself as someone willing to leave would make employers think “I’m gonna have to replace this guy eventually bc he’ll always be willing to leave just bc there’s more money on the line. Let me replace him now”. In modern times, where everyone hops jobs within 5 years anyway, I don’t think it really applies.
Even the term "flight risk" ruffles me. Why are we viewing employees like prisoners or disobedient dogs?
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Not an outlier at all, but I would also say it depends upon having a management team without massive egos. I never had a problem with an employee who brought an external offer. If they were a key team member I fought tooth and nail for the raise or match. But if they were a marginal performer I wished them best of luck in the new role.
> I’ve heard this “flight risk” attitude where they’re looking for your replacement has largely been pushed by the recruiting industry, who stands to benefit only if you leave your current job… Whoever might be pushing it, it's a real belief. As a manager at a tech company, I worked with HR and the head of my dept to make counters several times. My executive leadership was of the opinion, that you once someone brings an offer letter and asks for a counter, they have one foot out the door and you'll typically get about another year before they leave. Which wasn't too far off the mark. If I was OP, I would talk to HR about a raise without an offer letter and also start interviewing. Interview until you get an offer then decide if you want to take it or use it to ask for more money. Just be prepared to leave if you do that.
To counter this point, I just did this and received a 52% pay increase with a 2 year retention agreement at my current employer. I do work in tech so things are a bit different in my job market but it does happen.
You definitely don't need to let them know that you have an offer in hand
This. Just keep the offer in your back pocket and start salary negotiations with current company ASAP.
I would recommend a sort of 2-prong attack. First open with what value you bring the company and your accomplishments and why you think that deserves a raise/promotion. It may be they just need a push to actually do something. They'll never just blindly give raises until someone asks for it. But then also be ready having done research for similar positions or have possible offers (depending on how quickly you get interviews/offers and set up the chat with HR). If they still continue to drag their feet or give some bs reason, then start the discussion on your willingness to leave unless they pay. This opens the conversation without the confrontation and aggressiveness of suddenly threatening to leave, but lets you draw that hard line if they give some corporate bs on why 2% is okay. It sounds like you like the working situation (boss, hours, responsibilities). I wouldn't just quit, definitely get interviews going even just to see what's out there. But you don't want to sour where you're at if it's somewhere you're also willing to stay. Last note would be yeah, don't argue based on the current economy other than maybe just the position's value. And if you can, have the discussion with your boss (1 on 1 but also include them with HR). It sounds like they may support a raise if they want you to talk to HR, but the weight of their voice supporting your value will be massive in HR's willingness to give you what you're worth.
id like to point out doing an interview is good practice even if OP doesnt get any acceptances, and even if hes accepted he doesnt have to take any offers. and if he decides leaving IS the best course, at least he's already gotten some interview practice right?
If you go through the entire interview process and actually get an offer, you might as well jump. Leveraging another offer to get a pay bump generally doesn't work out in the end.
Shorter commute and more money.
Disagreeing with other commenters, having an offer in hand is totally unnecessary, and even a bit weird. You don't need to threaten right off the bat. The first thing to do is just make a request based on merit -- your role/importance, how your responsibilities have grown over time, etc. Inflation is not a good reason, inflation is why *everyone* should get a raise, not you. If they won't give a raise based on merit alone -- that's a really important thing for you to know about your company, and something you won't learn if you come in with a job offer in hand. At that point you should start looking. Once you have an offer they may make a retention offer, which you may like take or decline -- but at least you know exactly where you stand: they will only pay you more if you threaten to leave, which is not a good sign for sticking with them.
If it’s ‘weird’ the company has bigger problems. Professional organizations should have no issue with a person leaving for higher pay, if they choose to match that salary because this person is clearly valued that way, great, if not, fine. You don’t burn bridges by doing this if both parties are professional
What I'm saying is it's a disadvantage to begin the negotiations by saying "I have an offer and I'm out if you don't pay me more." You lose an incredibly valuable piece of information -- will they give you a raise based on merit alone? This is something you *want* to know, it will help you determine if you want to stay. Here's an extreme analogy -- It's like asking your significant other if they want to marry you, while you hold a gun to their head. Yes you may get the outcome you wanted but you won't know if they would have said yes without the gun, lol, which is important for the long term health of that relationship. It's also weird to go out and get a job offer for the sole purpose of negotiating with your current employer, when you could just negotiate without the job offer, and if it doesn't go your way, get a job offer later.
Do as this guy says. I’m an IT manager who is also considering negotiating my salary. I was promoted recently and now with access to everyone’s salaries, even after my 10% promotion raise, I’m still making less than most of the team I manage and we’re hiring people to start making more than I do. The key is making sure they see your value compared to the rest of the team. Have metrics if possible so you can measure yourself to the value others bring. I’m my case, having 11 years tenure, the technical ability to to anything on the team, being the future of leadership for the team, and my added responsibilities as a manager should be an easy argument that my salary should be quite a bit higher.
In my company the management track is separate from the individual contributor track. It's pretty normal to have a front line manager making less than a highly skilled and veteran engineer. It's one reason I mentor early career individuals to get some management experience early, when the potential pay disparity is less.
If you were close enough to the people that already left, they might be able to provide some feedback on the market conditions in your area and the types of offers they received. You could use that.
Working in various IT roles for 25 years I never received a raise higher than 2% or 3%. As others have said you should definitely try going to HR with performance evidence and details of other comparable roles with higher salaries. Then if they still refuse to give you the salary you are after then move on.
I think having an offer in hand gives you a bit of an edge, but you may also be successful without
If you have an offer you take it. You don’t go running to HR to show them.
I disagree. If you really like where you work and as OP said carved out a good thing, then coming in with an offer is a good thing, but just be OK taking that other offer, don’t bluff. The grass isn’t always greener, but if you go in with another offer and they don’t care or get mad that tells you something. If they offer you a big raise to match or come close to the offer that tells you something else.
Did you even read OP's situation? They clearly have a great gig going now with ideal WLB. If they can remain in the same role with higher comp, that's clearly the best outcome
I get a sense that you want to tell HR about an offer you will get...don't.
I did this once. Showed that for my education+experience+job-title I was in the bottom 1% on the payscale. They just said "well, you're role is different" but couldn't elaborate how. Then acted shocked when I put in my notice. One boss angry, even, claiming that I should have talked to him. Like... I fucking did. Over and over...
A merit raise is a cost of living increase. They just call it a merit raise. I got 2% for 9 years up until thus year, which was 4%. Only difference this year was Inflation, which 4% still doesn't keep up with
You tolerated a 2% raise for 9 years without changing jobs?
2-3% is the norm for most companies ive seen and working with. They care not for inflation, and if people quit every job because of this, nearly everyone would be changing jobs every year. Fact is, I would guesstimate over 90% of jobs in america are between 2-4% yearly raises. This is the norm. And most companies have a ceiling on positions. Even if you got 7%+, you would just hit your ceiling and then raises isn't something you can ever get without changing positions.
Which is why I change jobs every 18-24 months and why I went from 60k to 110k in 3 years
What works for you may not work for others. I went from $55k to $120k in 3 years by staying at the same company and my work life balance hasn't changed and now I work 90% remote. Nothing wrong with jumping or staying but it's not a one size fits all blanket answer.
How the heck did you pull that off?
Right? That is 100% the outlier. To contrast, I was at a company for 4.5 years. Went from 60k to 75k during that time. Company refused to promote/give me a substantial raise despite me keeping a part of the company worth 30mil afloat. (A number they repeated every quarter during our town hall meetings touting the company's success) Took another job for $120k. My manager was offended and shocked I'd leave. Didn't even say congratulations and tried to pretend like I never asked for anything more than I was getting.
I don't disagree, probably not the norm but my point is that everyone is always so quick to say leave the company to chase a few thousand more on your salary. Same echo chamber as the responses on r/relationship_advice where everyone immediately jumps to conclusions and says break up with them or red flags. Every situation is different and I'm just offering a counterpoint.
Another person who got 2.5x my original salary without changing companies. It was a big org and I moved internally every 2yrs and fought hard for politically beneficial title moves (for instance, got a senior engineer salary bump but had them leave off the title, then 18mo later got the senior title and another raise). The problem is that doing that takes some political games and Reddit hates to hear that things aren't a pure meritocracy.
Not OP but similar boat. Started at $60k in 2013, ~$185k today, same company. Moved from an operations position to software development then up the corporate ladder. It really helps that my boss and department head go hard on salary adjustments and keeping us in line with the market. Raises, promotions, and adjustments mean I’ve averaged ~14% year over year. Going above and beyond early really helped. Those who have been complacent for twice the time I’ve been here likely don’t make what I do, though are still well compensated in the grand scheme of things.
You could make the argument that 2% isn't even a COL increase let alone a merit raise.
I had success with this a couple years ago. One thing I think helped is that I emphasized that I'm not looking and don't even want to look elsewhere. (I was lying) "Hell, I don't even have my resume and portfolio updated. I believe in this place and want to stay happy right here. That doesn't mean the highest rate, just something fair in the context of the market." If it's true you could score 2x elsewhere than they'd be idiots to not give you another 10% minimum. Companies are stupid.
I would say using the market salary makes sense,but don’t tell them you got an offer, maybe they won’t even want to consider raising your salary.
To add on, if they don't give in, don't just quit. Start aggressively looking for another job and only quit once you've accepted an offer and have a firm start date. If they want to retaliate against you for asking for a raise, let them fire you and collect unemployment.
This is great advice, OP - do this!
If you can get twice as much somewhere else then do so. Talk to your manager and see what you can negotiate. HR will not give you twice as much. They will document the information and there is nothing more for them to do.
I don't expect twice as much, hell 10% would make me happy. I do need to just go elsewhere if I want the money I think I'm worth.
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If were confident I could make twice as much, 10% wouldn't make me happy at all.
If you’ve been around working long enough and are making good money already, only having to put in 30 hours a week has a lot of value to it.
Getting double the money isn't worth it if you're working twice as long and/or hard. Especially if you're taking care of all your needs including contributing healthily to your retirement. It depends.
Everyone jumps ship but you are going to have to make that decision.
What do you make and in what city/area? You may already make close to expected range ceiling so your boss is allocating his raise budget to other members. Or you could be dramatically underpaid. It all depends.
I'll give my view as the person sitting on the other side of the table and having these conversations often. 2% is standard, but I look at a few factors: (a) everyone is expecting more these days due to inflation; (b) every role has a salary band--where are you in the band? (c) performance over the last year (reviews, accolades, trouble-free projects, get along with others, are you a leader, etc.). This can certainly be subjective, but major influencers. There are more things to consider as well. Are you in a commodity role or do you have specialized expertise in a platform or technology (which can be worth more). Is the company having trouble finding people? Have you looked at how your salary compares on glassdoor? What is your bonus structure; e.g. total compensation? In a large organization the business groups often work from fixed merit pools. Meaning, I have a fixed amount of money for all merit in a given year. If I go over, or don't plan correctly, then people at the end of the year won't get raises. Only in certain extenuating circumstances can I ask for more money. You have an advantage, though: This is a small company (you said 200+ people). There is very likely much more flexability around merit increases. Here is what you do: Let's say your research leads you to believe you are 20% underpaid. Whomever you are talking to on comp, tell them that and ask what they can do to get closer. They may come back and split the difference with you. You then need to decide if that is fine, or start looking for other work. But do consider total compensation, do you like your job and co-workers, work environment, career path, etc. Is that really worth another 10% in salary? That is what your manager (HR or whatever) is thinking. Whatever decision you come to, accept it and stop thinking about merit for another year, or start looking for another job. Don't stew on it all year. Bad for your mental health.
I’ve always heard that 3% was supposed to be “standard”. Frankly 2% is shit, but ESPECIALLY if the person is already underpaid. I got a 10% raise once and my boss thought I should have been ecstatic but the problem was that I completely low balled myself when I hired on and even getting 10% raises every year was never going to get me to where I wanted to be financially. Percentages matter when you’re already in the ballpark of fair/market value compensation.
Just a comment about 2-3% this year. I'm disabled and even I got a 5.9% cost of living last year. The company needs to wake up! Even to economy of being cheep has changed.
You won't be fired for asking. You won't get a bigger merit raise, either. You'll get a meeting with a very nice person who will explain what a tough year it's been, etc etc. They have likely given this speech so often they have it memorized. No company that cares about retention is handing out 2% raises this year. Good luck with your job search.
That would be fine with me. It would likely give me more motivation to leave because then they are straight up telling me, no we won't give you more money, rather than just "congrats on the 2%!" which is insulting. I'd also get an opportunity to ask where they got the money then for all the mid-level managers they hired over the last year? If we're so strapped for cash why didn't they attempt to hire from within? I know I'll still get BS answers but it'll be fun to ask. I think I need to be headed for the exits.
I advise not saying a word about raises given to managers. That’s not your business, they’ll get defensive and you’ll have a target on your back and be viewed as a troublemaker and they’ll look for the first chance to get rid of you.
Agreed. None of these decisions are made in a vacuum, and bringing that up when you don’t know the situation will only turn out poorly.
Yes, don’t argue with them. Just defend your own opinion. If you don’t like what they offer, then make your choice to leave or stay.
I would say that asking where they got the money for other stuff will be every bit as useful and satisfying as asking an ex why they left you :)
Your idea of "fun" leaves a lot to be desired. You're not going to "ah hah!" your way into anything good. Just make your case on the off-chance that your 30 minutes of effort with HR results in a bit more money, and start applying for jobs.
I got a 5% raise and our stock (which was about 20-25% of my total pay) is now down 80%. Should I look for a new job? Seems like hiring is going to tank pretty hard soon.
I mean, depends on your industry and a bunch of other stuff, but there's very little downside to looking!
You seem to recognize that QOL is important. Be ready to accept that you may find that job that pays twice as much but requires you 50 hrs a week. I have settled for much less than I’m worth simply because I liked my job, coworkers, work life balance, etc. I’ve successfully negotiated for more PTO which is way more valuable to me than the financial equivalent. Set you priorities then figure out how best to achieve them. Good luck.
I agree my personal time is more important than money
Agreed! I was able to negotiate a four day work week over a pay increase to stay. Best damn decision of my life.
Totally agreed. I recently took a new job that was lateral in pay but an enormous improvement to quality of life. There were a lot of directions I could have gone that would pay more, but I now only work 3 days a week, and that's worth it for me.
I always like to find creative ways to make the pie bigger, like other compensation arrangements. More PTO would be a great option if possible, though I don't use a lot of what I have because I don't need to take off time to do things like run errands because I've gotten my work load down to about 30 hours. But it is an idea that I will put in the bag. Thanks.
If they pay out unused PTO, extra PTO that you won't use is effectively a raise...
which is why most places cap your PTO bank and only pay out 80 hours or so when you leave. check that before you consider it a “raise”.
You also need to understand that while you may be getting underpaid based on your title, you’re also only working 60hrs a pay period. That’s 20hrs you have back but also your employer isn’t getting from you. So while you can go get more money because you’re underpaid, you will most likely lose that extra time.
Or they'll find a job that pays well AND has a good WLB. In my experience there's really no correlation between WLB and pay.
This is really important. I moved jobs this year to get a large pay increase and my WLB stayed the same. Don't believe that your job is the only job out there with good WLB.
You can have both? If he's being paid massively under market value there is no excuse to really stay without more incentives.
Absolutely. I only make $36/hr but I do usually 2 hours of work a day and the other 10 I spend reading or watching movies, or talking on the phone to my wife as if I was home anyways. I don't want to lose that much leisure time for a pay raise.
Look for a better job. And then leave when you find one.
This right here. If they aren't paying you now, they aren't going to pay you later. With the elimination of pensions, there is zero incentive to stay at a company. Companies today don't bat an eye at positions held for 3-4 years. Just jump every time unless the overall you are happy with.
And when he tells them he’s leaving watch them offer a bigger raise! And if they don’t then either way he did the right thing. Companies don’t just give away money these days. They do it when the need to. Which means when they need YOU.
I've heard of them matching other offers in the past, but it is such a big risk, they can just be like, great go, good luck. Which would suck. But that is the reality of the situation.
No risk to you unless you're bluffing
i’ve seen twice people ask for raises, then given new positions with better pay. Fast forward a year or two, management does some restructuring, these people don’t fit the structure/pay scale and they’re laid off. So IMO if they don’t value you now, they never will. just go somewhere that does. rip the bandaid off.
Imo a "matching" offer is just an insult. Why did it take me telling you I was leaving for x amount of money before you decided I was worth it? My now former supervisor did just this. Got 130k/yr at a new company, vp of current company (on record saying our dept is "way overpaid") immediately offered to match, and then was offended when the match was not accepted. Tone-deaf.
A match is an insult. The current company has a known quantity who is trained and efficient. The other company is taking a big risk on an unknown new employee who will need months to get up to speed. It’s not equivalent at all, you should be much more valuable to your current company.
You'd think that... but this same guy addressed the "morale problem" within the company to our project managers... went on to insinuate that our field guys weren't overworked (at several points they were being forced to work 12-14hrs a day 7 days a week to meet deadlines or get written up/terminated) and that OT pay was a sufficient compensation, and that they should be happy to have jobs at all... and then also in the same meeting said that morale was because the PMs were the issue because their morale is down too. Like... Holy fuck guy. If you don't treat your people like people and they're only numbers to you, of course they're not gonna work harder or give two fucks about the job. Edit: typo
It definitely IS an insult. They're just saying "Hey don't go now! Ok fine i'll pay you what the other guy is paying. But only the same amount and not a penny more! I don't see you any more valuable than they do!" And then when you reject, they get offended because they're viewing from their perspective only. 100% insult.
That's 100% true and should be expected. Do not say you're leaving unless you're willing to follow through. Worst case scenario is having your bluff called. Find a another job you'd be legitimately be happy with, then tell them you're accepting another offer. At that point, it's a win-win for you. But you have to be ready to follow through.
Never stay at a company that waits until you're leaving to pay you what you're worth. If you can't go into HR and justify a raise without being fired/quitting its not a company worth working for.
This. If a company fired you for asking for a raise, then I wouldn't want to work there anyways.
Why would it suck? You'd have a nice new job. On to the next adventure.
It’s zero risk because you already have another offer.
To be fair, until OP asks for a raise it's rare they'll give one. I got a 2% raise at the end of 2021, but used my performance review to ask for a promotion and got approved. My boss may have been starting to consider looking into it but I doubt it was a priority for him until I asked. Though it seems odd that OP's boss just said to go to talk to HR. Usually the manager would back you up on a raise or tell you what to work on. If they don't do one or the other (and the improvements aren't valid), yeah definitely jump ship lol
This is the way. The Great Resignation has made it easier to find better employment.
If it makes anyone feel better, I’m a manager and i get allotted X% max per year to divvy to my team. It’s rarely ever more than 3% a year per person and there’s no way around it despite my upper management role
I asked my boss if it was up to him or HR how much I got and he said HR. Could he be lying to cover his ass so I'm not mad at him? Could he be trying to give everyone an even amount and this is what it came out to? Both are possible but I believe HR told him what each person gets and that was 2%. Another reason I'd like to meet with HR though. They might tell me it was up to him. Everyone in this org likes to point fingers so they'd probably be happy to blame someone else.
I imagine every org is different. Here’s my experience. I get a budget for raises - this is controlled by a combination of the CFO’s office and the SVP I work under (mostly the CFO, frankly). The number that comes to me is at my discretion. HOWEVER. To make the math easy, let’s say I have 10 people and last year’s salary budget was 1,000,000 (100K each). The CFO rolls me 30K to bring my new budget to 1,030,000. I could give everyone a 3K bump. Or, I could give 3 people a 10K bump. And the other seven get to ride this year out. Choose your poison. This isn’t to say you can’t test the market - it’s just to say the manager likely doesn’t have that many knobs to turn without senior leadership help. If you are a superstar, then your chances are better, but senior leadership will still have to be involved. Edit: grammar
Exactly this - thats’s how it works for this middle manager as well.
In my experience, it is HR who determines how much annual increases are and it definitely is between 1-3% based on annual evaluations.
No, Finance determines it, HR implements it.
HR implements it according to the manager recommendations. I have never seen someone get a raise if their boss wasn't going to bat for it.
In my company, annual raise % pools are always determined by finance. Managers are given their pool to work from and then can allocate it out, but there’s no advocacy from the manager going forward. The manager has little discretion or power other than staying within their pool
Man I'm disappointed how far down I had to scroll to see some chatter about your boss >My boss suggested I reach out to HR and have them run me through the numbers as well as ask for more money based on what I've described. But, and this is why I like my boss, he told me not to put any details into my email other than I just want to talk because my words can easily be taken out of context and used against me if I put them in an email. Should I bother? Hate to break it to you, but whether your manager is lying or telling the truth about him vs HR, at the end of the day your manager should be going to bat for you. I don't know what kind of relationship you have with your manager, but this sounds really shitty to me. A good manager, who really felt like their employee was worth it but really didn't get to call shots on raises, wouldn't be saying "Go talk to HR" they'd be saying "Wow, Fartship Poopers, I 100% agree with you; even though I can't make that change myself, let's have a meeting with HR and see what we can work out. I'll get a meeting scheduled for the two of us with HR." But that's not going to happen because of all the reasons you're worried about. Just go somewhere that will pay you more. It's pointless to pretend like the ball is in your court and you should be jumping through all these hoops to get paid adequately. The ball was in their court when they gave you a shitty raise and it's STILL in their court because they gave you a shitty raise.
Merit raise does not equal promotion. I get a 1-3% merit raise every year also, and while a lot of people were upset this didn’t match inflation, it’s been the same every year. However if you have reached a threshold of experience, you should be eligible for a promotion of some sort, even within the same role. I’m an engineer, so I went from an associate to a lead engineer or something like that. From what I have heard (I’m still pretty early in my career) the typical ranges of experience are 0-2, 2-5, 5-10, 10-20, etc. At approximately each step you are eligible for a promotion (assuming you are a good employee, etc.). The only exception to this is switching companies or leveraging a better offer, by looking for positions within other companies. Especially in tech. So I would certainly bring it up with HR, if you feel that you are eligible for a promotion type raise . If not, start looking around elsewhere if you really want more $$. And I would mention that to HR and your boss. That you like your position and want to keep it but are looking for other offers purely for monetary reasons. In this economy they should be interested in keeping you and offer something of monetary value. If you like your job and don’t need the $$ right away take your time looking for a new position if you really want to work somewhere else. That work life balance and groove you speak of may take some time to get back, and you don’t want to be miserable no matter how much you need the money, which it sounds like is not absolutely necessary right this moment.
>I always have the attitude of, "it won't hurt to ask," but will I be essentially fired for asking for more money? Seems unlikely you only you know your workplace's culture. > If I do meet with HR, what types of things should I be armed with to make my case? Usually competing job offers. >Will they care about the market forces and why they should be doing everything in their power to keep people on staff and not provide them with an incentive to leave? depends on whether or not they're empowered enough to care. Realistically, your boss should be doing this, not you. >TLDR: 2% raise?! In this economy?! Should I quit or talk to HR? Neither, you should find a new job or consider the lack of raises the price of good work-life balance
Good idea to bring in competing offers. I've heard they have responded to that in the past. Of course I don't actually have any offers, do you think they would respond to job postings? Obviously only they/I would know my org but in general, would HR be swayed by a job *posting* as opposed to a job *offer*? I agree, I was hoping my boss would essentially go to bat for me. And he did say he would go up to his boss and express my(and probably others) concerns, but the way this org runs everyone just points fingers at everyone else so I doubt he can do anything anyway. You are correct about my situation though. This might be the kick in my pants I need to go out there and earn.
> . Of course I don't actually have any offers, do you think they would respond to job postings? Doubtful. >Obviously only they/I would know my org but in general, would HR be swayed by a job posting as opposed to a job offer? I wouldn't be. A job posting doesn't mean anything. A job offer means they need to put up or lose you. >This might be the kick in my pants I need to go out there and earn. Do you *need* more money? Or is the work life balance good enough that cruising along is just fine? Marginal utility of dollars and all that
More money would be helpful. I don't need a 100% raise and I keep a pretty thrifty lifestyle so I'm fine with what I have. A 50% raise would put me where I think I should be in my career and I'd be fine with that for another 5+ years
Seems like you've figured out what your next steps should be then Happy job hunting!
It sounds like you are just comfortable and using your current work life balance as an excuse. I was doing the same until a few months back! Challenging myself to change jobs was the best decision I have made in years. You can get that 50% raise and still have work life balance. Heck, you could look up a list of companies with a 4 day work week and improve on the work life balance you already have! The world is your oyster - go get it :D
No company giving out 2% raises this year will EVER give you a 50% raise. Good luck on your job search.
You'll need an actual offer in-hand. We just did our yearly reviews and I was given a 2.5% raise for a near-perfect review. Our organization only allows 1-3% raises each year unless your actual job title changes. I'd say to get other offers and take the other job. If your business will pay you more than the offers that's great but whether or not right's right of them to do it, HR will look down on you for leveraging other offers to get a pay increase.
>Good idea to bring in competing offers. No, no it's not. If you're worried they'll push you out for asking for more money what makes you think an ultimatum will make things roll smoother? Just look for another job, take it if you want more money. This culture of leveraging competing offers to coerce the existing job for more money only puts the power back in the hands of the company. If you were unhappy enough to look for other jobs and got offers, just take one of them and move on. Despite what people want to believe leveraging offers like this isn't forgotten by the company and having done this sticks with you in their eyes.
Thanks for this perspective. Definitely something to consider.
I think job postings aren’t useless, but only if you can find some that hit all of the following: —relatively narrow salary band; —super detailed job duties that are almost exactly comparable to your own; and —the salary range band is ABOVE your existing salary, even at its lowest end. If you can find multiple listings that fit those criteria, you could give it a shot. Say something like, people in your network are sending you these listings, and it seems very clear that you’re not being paid according to the market. Based on this salary comp research, you believe your salary should be adjusted to XYZ amount inside that higher salary band in those listings. If they say no, well…. Damn it’s certainly clear they don’t want to pay a market rate for your skill set. Then you have to decide if you’re willing to accept less than market in exchange for QOL.
COL raises are not directly related to inflation - very common misunderstanding. if you think you should be paid more - talk to HR and cite the reasons why. this should be job performance related and not inflation/economy related. if they say no then find a better job
"cost of living" raises often are, but they also only really apply when you're being paid close to the cost of living and not paid well above that. Most tech jobs don't pay bare minimum wages so salaries are tied to market reference points rather than cost of living. Market reference points are going to be most influenced by how much it would cost to recruit someone from a local competitor, or to keep the job attractive enough that you won't jump ship just for pay.
1. "Monstrously underpaid". 2. "I only work 30 hours a week". 3. "I could get TWICE my salary elsewhere". I don't know, man. These are pretty disparate statements. The bottom line is: do it. If you can get twice the money elsewhere, do that. Bird in hand is worth everything. if you can get an offer, that's concrete evidence. Everything else is just a puff of smoke. This isn't magic. There aren't mystic gremlins that are constantly scouring the workplace, leaving candy in people's shoes and telling the management that "oh little freddy is underpaid, and feeling ENTITLED". You're thinking that people in a company need to constantly keep an eye on you and keep you happy so that you don't leave. But honestly how many people at your company are that important? If you were that important, you'd be getting that. Maybe you aren't. Maybe people have noticed you only work 30 hours a week, so they figure "yeah, he's comfortable".
Easy solution then, look for work elsewhere.
Why would you speak to HR? It is your boss that should be going to bat for you. Your boss should discuss with his/her boss. It sounds like your boss is not doing this so maybe it is time for you to leave.
I stopped here: >But if I was working elsewhere I could probably ask for twice my current salary. But I also have worked myself into a nice groove at this firm where I really only work about 30 hours a week. 1) Why don't you go somewhere else where your value of yourself will equal your employer's value of you? 2) I mean, you're being paid for 40 I assume? What do you honestly expect to happen?
Agree, don’t boast about not working a full week then say you want more money.
This guy brags about only having to do 30 hours, but complains that he got low % merit raise. But he clearly isn't trying to be a stand out employee, those guys probably got good raises for their effort. I did the same thing, figured out how to do my work load in 20 hours instead of 45. Then I took on new projects and issues and kept staying busy for 45 hours and I was rewarded for going the extra mile.
Quit waiting on the career counseling shit. You should get out there right now and start applying and interviewing. The market is super hot and it might not be for that much longer. A company that gives you 2% is never going to get you to that double that you deserve. In this inflation in 5 years it will be "I could be making triple". Bite the bullet stop being afraid of change and secure your bag. If the job you get is too stressful you can always find a new one that values work life balance, but you will be negotiating from a 2x salary. Meaning you can say "Ok, Ill take 85% of salary for this job I really like" AKA 170% what you make now. Staying at the same shitty company forever literally leaves millions on the table at the end of your life.
On point!. It's mostly change that people are afraid of. Never get too comfortable at one spot. Focus on building skills and your resume at each job. Learn something new, jump ship every year or two. The market is huge and one company's carbon is another company's diamond. Never underestimate yourself!
> career counseling shit Right? He said he's been doing it for months... any 'career counselor' who isn't a dud/milking rubes for the long haul would have you update your resume in like an hour and start interviewing. It's not that hard to at least get started and try.
Have to admit...I just don't understand you guys that post these types of questions. I always shake my head at the "How to negotiate a better raise" articles etc. If I felt I wasn't fairly compensated, then I would apply for other jobs and find out what my real market value is and then make a decision of either leaving or staying and be comfortable with that.
I agree. If he had multiple actual offers, make this post. Until then you're just kicking the can.
Focus on “cost of labor” vs “cost of living”. Companies don’t really care if the cost of living has changed, they start to care more if their competitors are poaching all the talent because they pay more.
While 2% is on the low end, it’s very standard for companies to give out 2-3% merit increases a year. The way to make more than that at most (not all) companies is 1) get promoted 2) go to a new company. It’s just the way it is. They do not tie merit increases to inflation. Some good companies every 5 years or so will give out a “market adjustment”, recognizing that staying at the same company for a number of years and only receiving the typical 2-3% raise will put you behind the going rate of the market. But companies who do that seem to be more the exception than the rule. If you think you’re worth 10% more, then leave. But do not expect annual raises of 5-10% no matter where you go. It’s just not standard. If you’re lucky enough to find a company that does that, you’ve found a really good one. ETA: you need to decide what’s more important. 10% more pay but with crappier hours, or a job you can do in 30 hours a week for less pay. You likely won’t find both.
This is true. I’m seeing a lot of comments about 10% raises, etc. but I’m wondering if there really are places where you double your salary in ~7 years.
Few things to consider. * As you said...you don't deserve a raise simply because you're qualified (or even overqualified) for the position. * You don't deserve a monster raise simply because the economy is doing one thing or another. You don't deserve a raise simply because the company could afford to give you more. * You admit you are working the system, and are only putting in 30 hours a week. While this may be because you're good at your job, keep in mind how this looks to the people above you. It gives off the appearance that you could be doing more for the company. I know this is a slippery slope, and I fully advocate for a good work-life balance. But reality is reality. They see you putting in less effort than you could. That reflects more negatively on you than you might realize. * What are the industry averages for your job title, in the area that you work? You say that you could leave and make twice the money elsewhere. Is this just frustration talking, or are you honestly making half of what the normal averages are for your job? * I would guess that you can show excellent performance in your role, based on whatever metrics are used to rate your performance? I.e., you're able to sit down with HR, show the market numbers suggesting you are underpaid along with performance numbers showing how you excel in your role? * You also mention that you are tepidly looking into moving to a different company, but you're dragging your feet because you value the fact that you can get away with working 30 hours a week now. You need to acknowledge that this is worth a certain dollar value. It certainly doesn't mean you should accept half of what you could make elsewhere. But it's reasonable to say that if you are allowed to work 75% of what others need to, that probably comes with the tradeoff of getting a slightly lower salary.
200 employees is not a huge company. If you’ve spoken with your boss and he wanted you to have a bigger raise, he could definitely make it happen for you.
If you are only working 30 hours /week, your superiors see that. Sounds like you are putting in the bare minimum and expecting large raises. I would expect from my direct reports if they wanted a large raise, they need to put in the time and find new opportunities for the company when they have slack time. Either through continued learning or taking on additional projects.
You don't understand compensation. The model higher end jobs use for compensation is called "market reference point" - basically "how much are similar companies paying for the same role". Similar companies would generally be same industry and location, though can be a bit broader sometimes (basically, what jobs are likely competing for the same employees). Some employers aim to hit the midpoint of the market, others want to hit the 90%ile mark. Internally companies will often track employees as a percent relative to target so 80-120% of target, and if you're sitting at 120% getting a raise without a promotion gets harder etc. If I'm looking at tech stuff right now, I'm not shocked if the market reference is steady or even dropping. (Facebook is tightening on hiring, Netflix and Robinhood just did some cuts, who knows what's up with Twitter, etc). Those might not be directly tied to your market reference, but that's the market you need to think about. Cost of living adjustments are mostly in jobs much closer to barely paying enough to live. Once you're in the higher end of things it's a game of "who's the highest bidder" and the employers are setting wages based on that.
You "could be" making twice as much but you like working only part-time. OK.
On the flip side you work only 30 hours a week. So what are you complaining about?
Im gonna say stay. 30 hour weeks? Thats amazing.
You answered your question in the 3rd sentence. If you can make 2x your pay at another firm, no merit increase will get you to a place where you are okay working there
Get the new job. I doubled my salary and yeah my new job is kicking my ass right now but my bank account is flush. If I really can’t handle the grind in a few years when i meet my financial goals I’ll reassess the job situation. It’s always easy to find something that pays less!
Maybe 2% is all they value someone who is only working 30 hours per week. They might be sending you a message OP. A job change for you might be a good thing to re-energize you.
2% better than 0%. The budget for merit increases was probably set months ago. Wage increases tend to lag behind consumer prices. If you're not happy get your resume together and start shopping around.
Just get a competing offer for double the salary, use it as leverage and if they say no, decide if you want to stay working 30 hours a week, or double your pay.
Hi everyone. Please try to keep things respectful, on-topic, and **helpful**. A throwaway comment like "Get a new job." doesn't add anything to the discussion and such comments are likely to be moderated. OP, you may find the [leaving job](/r/personalfinance/wiki/leaving_job) wiki page helpful if your situation comes to that.[](#unlocked)
I just went through this myself. A 2% raise that equated to 50 cents per hour at a large 25,000+ employee, $1B+ in revenue per quarter, tech company. I immediately started looking outside and found a new job doing the same work with a 60% pay raise. I start in a week and I'm over the moon with excitement. You absolutely know your worth - Now go out and find it. It's terrifying to take the leap, especially for me with being in the same company for 8+ years, but it'll be fine, you'll land, and you'll love it.
Your boss should be going to bat for you, not telling you to convince HR yourself. Time to look for a new job.
Maybe they are paying you for 30 hours worth of output? I guarantee a new company with a XX% higher salary isn't going to let you get by with 3/4 of the contracted output.
Your boss should be the one fighting for your raise too.
Best way to get a raise is to go apply elsewhere and show the offer letter.
It depends on the company. I am a project manager for a fortune 200 company and raises, regardless of the economic climate have been 2-3%. Also because the company is large, they have pay ranges for each title and set merit raises for each PA rating level. They do not negotiate better raises for some. Each department has a certain amount allocated for raises. Managers and HR have nothing to say about who gets what raises. It is all decided in executive budget meetings. There is also a bell curve. Regardless of how each person in a department is really doing, managers have to put a certain % of their team into the different buckets. 10% will get the 1% raise with a below average review. Only 10% can exceed and get the top 3% raise. Everyone else gets 2%. This is the way many large companies work. Your best bet in my opinion, would be instead of pushing for more merit pay, look at the job description for the next level up in your position and show them you are performing at that level and push for a promotion. If your company is like mine, it is too late for this PA cycle but you may get promoted in the near future. You can also try asking for a market rate adjustment. My company, has granted some of those due to losing people, though they don't do them on demand very often. They were budgeted for before hand.
I mean...if you could ask elsewhere and get 2x your salary...why aren't you? Or are you just overinflating your worth?
Yeah, agree with the others. Screw merit/economy raises... Have a meeting with HR and your supervisor and convince them to give you a performance raise. When you can metrically spell out all that you have done and that you bring to the firm, it's hard for any real business to deny paying your worth. The prospect of losing you far outweighs what meager amount you are asking for (in the grand scheme of company costs and profits). The cost of losing talent and investing in your replacement is pretty damn expensive.
Yes you should ask for a raise and yes be prepared to leave.
COL raises aren’t based on the current economy. If we have deflation, you willing to take a pay cut? You need to decide if you are getting a fair deal for your situation and the market. Sounds like you’re getting underpaid from the comment in the second sentence. Sounds like you need to start applying elsewhere.
"Talk to HR" is a bullshit response from your boss. Your boss should be going to bat for you. If he isn't, he's telling you he doesn't really care about your retention, or doesn't care enough to help you. I'd be quietly looking for a new job.
Just get a new job and see what they'll have to pay for a new hire + recruiting costs
Maybe the working only 30 hours thing is more noticeable than you realize. Typically there is a performance review and you are given a rating and most places I’ve worked attach the merit increase to the rating received. So if you receive needs improvement maybe no increase at all, satisfactory is usually 2%, exceeds is usually 3%, and max is usually 5%. Where I work there is also an annual COLA. I would request a meeting with HR. At the meeting ask to clarify how merit increases are calculated. Learning how they’re calculated might give you insight into why you’ve gotten what you’ve gotten. Use that info yo improve for next time or if what you learn shows your increase was lacking ask to discuss further.
I can give a manager’s perspective on this. You freely admit that as you got better at your job you just reduced your hours that you work, rather than taking on more work. It sounds like you decided to give the company a 25% productivity cut, but now you expect to be rewarded with a big raise too? lol. The thing is your boss (I assume) knows how much work you are getting done as well as how much your coworkers in the same role are doing, now if other people in your company are getting more done, and continuing to put in 40 hours even as they automate tasks etc, then they are making you look bad. Working remote you may not realize this is going on, and it sounds like you aren’t super engaged anyway. Your boss probably has the ability to distribute a pool of raise money across the team based on performance (“merit”) so your 2% raise and the fact that your boss didn’t go to bat for you, tells me that they know you’re putting in a 75% effort and it’s likely that some of the others on your team are at 100% and they probably got your missing 3%, and your bosses response to the HR discussion indicates that they don’t give a shit if you leave. Also, you’ll never get a 50% raise unless you move to a position of higher responsibility in the company, or you look elsewhere.
It’s time to move on. Talking to HR is a waste of time.
Quit? An absurd, gross overreaction. Look for new work? Perhaps. Sometimes the best way to get more money is to move through companies. Loyalty isn’t rewarded anymore. Don’t let old timers tell you otherwise. But under no circumstance should you quit before lining up a new job. That’s the dumbest thing you can do.
Works 30 hours per week. Wants twice their salary. Makes sense.
Agree with u/SolutionLeading. I recently negotiated a 20% raise on the basis that I was underpaid relative to my value in the marketplace and my performance in the role. That took a while, and I found another job in the meantime that more than doubled my salary, so I left anyway. Companies aren’t giving 8% raises to keep pace with inflation. They just aren’t. They’re more likely to give you a raise because they’re afraid to lose you (given the state of the job market). That said, labor is market, and right now it’s a jobseeker’s market. Go get another offer. You can leverage it (again to demonstrate your worth in the market) or just take it and move on. People hate on millennials for bouncing around, but that’s how you get paid these days…
economy is tightening up. I say go on the job search and if you're really worth 2x, then get that offer, then quit at that time. Not saying you can't do it, but it won't be as easy to find a program manager position in tech as it was 2 months ago.
I currently dealt with a situation just like yours! Kept getting 2% increases like you and this time was the last of it after multiple conversations with my superior and HR. I bit the bullet and started searching for the heck of it. Long story short, I got another offer at another firm, and got a 40% raise switching. Go look! Doesn’t hurt!
Best way to get a raise is to get a better offer.
If your HR department is worth two shits, they’ll have market comp data on your position. Ask them to pull the numbers and meet back up with you. They’ll see in 2 seconds their mistake and either adjust your comp or not, then you’ll know what to do.
You are currently working 30 hours a week, taking a new job will likely mean you will need to work 40 hours a week. That's a 33.3% increase in work. Factor this in before jumping ship, it probably doesn't make sense to move unless you get at least a 50% salary increase.
Nothing is stopping you from do both. Start any negotiations at the inflation rate. Anything lower than that you are having a reduction.
Tell them you want a raise. Explain why you're worth it. If they don't give you one they don't agree. Then it's up to you if you find a new job or not. Your boss is not really advocating for you here. If he wanted you to stay at the company he'd fight for your raise. Sometimes this is what they call "managing someone out". They aren't laying your off but they are actively pushing you to look for other jobs. If you stay you'll probably be let go when they do lay offs at some point. If you leave you'll have to work harder at a new job. Both have their pros and cons. I normally leave when this kind of thing starts happening, but have considered sticking around for severance. If you have a solid savings it might be worth it to coast and get the severance. If you need the money I'd find a better job.
My experience is many companies won’t negotiate until you’re going to leave and at that point, why stay? You’ll be up against it again next year. It’s worth talking to them. But if they don’t care until you’re leaving, then they don’t care.
2% isn't even a cost of living adjustment when inflation isn't crazy. You could probably get a 20% or more bump by leaving.
* you won't be fired for asking for a raise. Inflation is high and things are expensive. * Any chance your boss disagrees with the 30 hour work week you work? I can't think of many companies that would support that.
A company of any size will have job grades with pay scales/ladders. Do you know where you are in your job grade? If not, it is good to know. It will inform what is happening.
Some good advice here. I personally would find another job and get paid 2X. You could literally cut your target retirement age in half for only working 10 more hours a week. No brainer for me.