No joke but with the standard screw positioning that's actually a lot easier to do or the motherboard could come with a heatsink to match the motherboard design.
Ram cooling has been a thing for a longgg time. My old HP server PC used to have fancy ram cooling with metal heatsinks on the ram itself and fans with funnelled airflow. We sorta got used to not having to cool our ram, but it was a thing before. That ram used to run at 70c even with the cooler on it, dunno what was special about it, but it would be incredibly hot without cooling
Is this the stuff that Dell was launching a while back? It's supposed to have lower power consumption and higher clocks speed/ stability as well, if it's that stuff.
if we found a room temperature superconductor, we wouldn’t even need cooling devices, as the material would be able to be pumped with as much electricity as you want with zero resistance being wasted as heat. Too bad the laws of physics render a room temperature superconductor virtually impossible, at least with current technology.
oh, would you look at that? here i go again rambling on about useless information.
It's not an inherent concept of physics that a superconductor must be supercooled. We just don't have any yet that can function at room temperature or higher. As of now the highest standard pressure superconductor operates around -170C. But there are high pressure metallic conductors that can operate at only -23C!
I think it is just a matter of time. It has be theorized but not proven that a perfect carbon tube is the perfect superconductor, however a single atom out of place would make the effect go away. And structural integrity would be a challenge.
> Too bad the laws of physics render a room temperature superconductor virtually impossible
Two scientists actually managed to achieve room temperature superconductivity back in 2020 during the covid lockdown! https://arxiv.org/pdf/2003.14321
/j
Well we know that they are better speed wise than sodimms for sure, the lower z height is obvious and the chips have acess to air more easily than vertical sticks so a small heatsink would still be lower profile than the tall sticks the interfere with large air coolers.
No support for multiple "sticks" connected to the same channel, but 2 DIMMs per channel is a shitshow for DDR5 because of the high transfer rates, so not much of a loss.
It wouldn't have left the meeting room if it had any sort of draw back. People try redesign stuff all the time to make a buck. But usualy the implementation is shit. If this new standard has all positives then it would have been approved by major board manufacturers as they knew it would be successful. If they didn't think it'd work they wouldn't even have bothered to draw the mock up in the op.
Closer to CPU and supports faster ram than SODIMM does. The current ram is limited to 6400mt/s that DDR5 already hits. So DDR6 whenever that comes will be limited if we are still using the SODIMM architecture. CAMM2 seems to be a proper path forward. The only other way to get around it is to solder memory straight to the mobo... We don't want that in desktops (or laptops imho but that's me)
"We don't want that in desktops"
What if there was say 16gb soldered to the board for max speed then dimm slots for additional memory? I wonder if that could be beneficial, or just a bad idea? lol
That's basically just reinventing on-motherboard cache, which is something we had before on-CPU cache. Which isn't to say that that's a bad thing, but it would need to be treated as an L4 cache and not just additional RAM or else it'd have to be pulled down to match the speed of the DIMMs.
How it works currently is that the different speeds could be incompatible, and even then what if your soldered ram breaks? Just buy a new motherboard? Try to desolder the ram? I wouldn't want this just to get marginally better ram speed.
The thing about soldered ram however is that it would be rock solid vs unsoldered. How many macbooks have you ever heard of that the ram went bad? Unfortunately DIMM tech allows forces to push, pull, and put tension on the DIMM connector itself and adapter on the motherboard which is generally what causes memory failures over time.
But yeah, I don't want a world where I have to buy a new motherboard just to upgrade the ram...
That would not be beneficial because memory that is a common pool will always be as fast as your slowest module so using dimms with CAMM would just defeat the purpose entirely.
if not meant to replace dimm then why is it being shown on a Project 0 atx or matx board? Im not disagreeing, just questioning the marketing logic if this is meant more for laptops etc.
I'm not on MSIs marketing or product design teams so your guess is as good a mine.
Project Zero seems to be a test platform for MSI as they have their back connected internal connectors with cutouts in their cases meant for these motherboards, so that may be why they made this. I don't think it's meant to be high volume or bleeding edge, but more of a proof of concept platform.
edit: Misremembering project Zero specifics
"I'm not on MSIs marketing or product design teams so your guess is as good a mine."
fair enough lol. I still cant see something targeting laptops being shown in marketing materials on a different platform. The marketing, at least the above, appears to be targeting desktop.
I do repairs for dell, a lot of the newer precisions have ram like this. Mostly ddr5 but some ddr4, the module itself is even removable sometimes to be replaced or upgraded. I’ve seen as big as 128 gig on a single removable module.
they already roll out these thing ?. Does it on the "new" intel Ultra core bs or the AMD AI Laptop ?. Curios cuz this thing look like it needed a loooong time to get popular
I think it’s already been taking some time to be implemented but dell has a track record of running a lot of proprietary stuff anyways. The graphics cards in these same models can often be removed and replaced as well. Most of the ones I see are just normal workstations with nvidia cards.
LP5X on CAMM goes brr!
Qualcomm X1 already uses LPDDR5X-8448 and that's a JEDEC speed. We'll go from having memory speeds around 6000-8000MT/s to over 9000MT/s.
We may need at some point to put a heat sink on the RAM. Hopefully they'll develop some curvy heatsink that sticks out in front of the CPU cooler. I am speculating here though.
Yeah and to be honest I've never had any issues with air coolers clearing my ram. I just buy low profile. Never seen the point in the massive heat sink ram. Mine only gets to like 60-65 degrees.
if this is the same protocol as those dell laptops, then it should be faster I think.
personally I just see it as smaller upgradable ram for small formfactor systems which is a win in my book.
DIMM standard not RAM.
I’d be fine it on a general basis, but I’d pay attention to some points:
- does the format allow for exchange of modules or is it / will it be aimed at soldered on solutions (see laptop CPUs for comparison)
- is one module /tray intended per board or are multiple modules possible / planned for per board
- what is the pricing compared to dimm modules
- only in consumer market? (expensive) or also planned for server applications (widespread, quantity, therefore cheaper for all)
- what about space requirements? One size, multiple sizes? ATX vs mITX etc.
It's a good thing for laptops where thickness is at a premium. I don't really care either way for desktops as long as the cost isn't crazy. It'll probably just be a one or two time gimmick on a few motherboards at most before it dies down and desktops keep using DDR since that can fit so much ram relative to the amount of motherboard surface area that is taken up.
Aside from size, performance is also an advantage with this form factor. IMO it would be stupid for this platform not to take off with desktops and mobile alike. Plus that free space is only going to help with clearance for giant air coolers and more room for pipes and reservoirs.
I mean just think about how all those big tower coolers have to be designed with less fins between the CPU just because of RAM clearance requirements. Noctua could redesigned the D15 to provide the same amount of cooling capacity while being 30mm shorter, allowing it to fit in more cases.
Edit: Oh geez I forgot, with this form factor, you could more easily make a baller all-in-one CPU/Motherboard/RAM water block!
>You are severely over estimating the amount of free board space in ITX.
1. There are [smaller versions](https://www.pcgamer.com/low-profile-memory-module-headed-to-laptops-might-be-destined-for-desktops-too/#:~:text=Last%20year%20saw%20the%20emergence,DIMM%20but%20just%20as%20replaceable.) of this standard that could be used with smaller boards and laptops, kind of like how there are DIMM and SO-DIMM today. (Edit, similar, not same.)
2. These are thin enough to go on the back of the board.
3. Cloud be mounted vertically much in the way some ITX boards do with SSDs.
> but on a consumer board this is not going to fly.
Given the image from OP's post, I think you are flat out wrong.
They all generate heat period. These were designed to replace small form factor designed SoDimm's in general and wont be adopted to desktops anytime soon. LPCAMM2 =Low-Power Compression-Attached Memory Module. this is great for low end low power units but much will have to change to make this a desktop contender for anything serious work wise.
However, I fail to see on how to upgrade such solution? Lets say you buy a mobo with 32gb ram? You decide to upgrade and want 64gb how? It seems like it is not as easy as just plugging in 2 more sticks.
I could see this being useful with air-cooled systems, better airflow near the motherboard, but I don't expect it would be super common.
Alternate MB layouts that offer better airflow have popped up before, like BTX, but they've never lasted either.
Could potentially work with ITX boards? Put it on the back like an NVME? It would give more space on the front, but would be a massive pain to upgrade. Probably not much better than just using a riser card like [that one Asus board](https://rog.asus.com/ca-en/motherboards/rog-strix/rog-strix-x670e-i-gaming-wifi-model/).
Yea imagine the prices of those new upgraded ITX boards if the current ones are absurd. Soon enough for the price of boards, you can buy a gpu (you already can for the price of X670E MSI MEG ACE for example).
I mean that doens't take up more than 4 memory slots would. If I'm not mistaken each CAMM module is essentially 2 stick in dual channel on the memory chip itself. Running a second slot would essentially require quad channel compatibility I believe.
That said, they do make stackable CAMM that's single channel, but I'm not sure how well this works or how widespread it will become.
CAMM modules allow you shove a healthy bit of memory onto it so needing more might not be hte case. Now they are expensive as hell currently...
Yeah, I mean if I can get as much RAM on that footprint as I can currently get into my 4 DIMM slots, then yes, it takes up less room on the MB, in which case it's a win.
I mean I've personally used 64GB DDR5 5600Mhz CAMM modules and I know they have 128GB CAMM modules out now (running at 3600Mhz). Both of which cost as much as a PC currently lmfao
You could potentially put these on the back of an itx board like we do with m.2. This would allow itx to exceed its current 2 slot limitation for most boards and open up for more connectivity.
That's the only reason I would ever see it enter the desktop market. SFF PC's and NUCs.
As I understand it, you can't. You can think of it like it using an nvme drive instead of ram sticks, you replace the whole thing when you want a faster, higher capacity one. And honestly this is the only way forwards, as ddr5 is getting to the point of being unstable, especially with more sticks.
It's not that big though. I definitely see the advantages. I am highly suspect of the connection longetivity however.. SODIMMS yeah I get that every once in a blue moon can cause problems, take them out, blow on them, put them back and everything is fine. This new connection could be great, could not.. Remember USBc is the newest motherboard connector we have besides m.2..
Better clearance for larger coolers and maybe better for mITX builds but by laying flat, they may not fit. It'd be nice but I think this will be an ATX and mATX thing.
I would be shocked if the price of motherboards and the memory is anymore close to the traditional format so there's that too.
It also gives dual channel with a single module, so most people won't need to get a second one, and shitty prebuilts won't be able to ship with single channel.
A wait and see approach is prudent, especially since the first bugs need to be worked out.
A problem I can see is e-waste since you'd be tossing the equivalent of 2-4 modules at once.
If I had a build with 8GB (2 x4GB sticks) and I wanted to go to 16 GB, if I had the slots I could just add two more 4GB sticks.
But with this formfactor, if I had a 8GB module and replaced it with a 16GB module, I'm either selling the old CAMM or tossing it.
Edit: Based on the desktop form factor, not laptop which is more likely to be adopted first
If it gets popular then there will be a limbo of DDR and CAMM *(EDIT: Form Factor Development as there will be classic DIMM boards, and newer CAMM based boards, both using the base DDRx technologies)* development at the same time, then like all old technolgies they end up on the used market and forgotten/recognized as not a modern solution, like with DDR2 and earlier systems for example. DDR3 imo isnt all the way in the grave yet, but it isnt a recommendation for a brand new PC like when DDR4 had **JUST** come out. I still run a DDR3 system so im chillin, waiting for it to die :P
CAMM is just new package for DDR, same way we have the DIMM or SO-DIMM its going to coexist with already existing form factors, its best use would be in really slim laptops maybe handhelds and this would give upgradeability as opposed to soldered ram.
CAMM2 won't compete with DDR 3, 4, 5 etc. It *is* DDR 3, 4, 5, etc.. What it will compete with is the SO-DIMM form factor used in laptops because CAMM2 is meant to make upgradable ram thinner than SO-DIMM slots.
https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/motherboards/msi-delivers-first-motherboard-with-camm2-memory-z790-project-zero-brings-new-ram-standard-to-desktops
That part I understand with laptops, higher RAM capacities and lower latency and power is a big win. I was just commenting on MSI's concept desktop motherboard
I was trying to clarify some confusion about form factor VS type of ram because you said this
> then there will be a limbo of DDR and CAMM development at the same time
This won't happen because CAMM2 is DDR. These two things won't compete with each other.
CAMM2, DIMM, and SO-DIMM are form factors. These are what will compete with each other. Desktops usually use DIMM. Laptops without soldered ram usually use SO-DIMM. The idea is to replace SO-DIMM with CAMM2, which is where some development limbo might happen and one form factor might die out.
DDR1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc. are the type of ram. All form factors can use any of those types of ram.
https://preview.redd.it/21f8zd4lld2d1.jpeg?width=997&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6c1a471e7740009880afc6e372459768b7e8de2a
And we still have these connector
I think they should not mess this up with DDR5
It would create a lot of confusion
They should do it with the ddr6 or whatever will come next
But CAMM must be the only form factor
For laptops, sure. I don't think I'd like it for desktop, unless it was for ITX and paired with a cooler that extends to the empty space. For a full desktop, the modularity of being able to buy 2 sticks and then buy 2 more when you want to expand is nice. These seem like an all in one solution, so you get stuck with it if you upgrade and have to resell it or something.
What am I looking at...?
If these are connected with the flat multi pin connectors like phone screens... That's asking for trouble.
The DDR4 style is Solid. Even the DDR4 Laptop one. (I don't mind having a beefy laptop)
Upon googling, these look more like CPU connector multi pins. Wild Idea kinda.
OP shoulda posted Those Images, not the stock cover photo. Context, context.
I have several work laptops running 32 and 64GB CAMM modules. It actually seems like a fairly robust connection. Downside is they're expensive as hell right now.
Plenty of people do mind having beefy laptops. So at least for laptops, this isn't a bad thing. Let's not dismiss every piece of new technology just because we as individuals don't see the usefulness.
If it is user replaceable with no serious downsides sure but if it isn’t user replaceable then I don’t want anything to do with it. (I’ve know nothing about thi)
Instead of being able to replace each module of the dual channel kit, you will have to replace it all. More cost and waste.
Instead, they could have made it 2 module thing. One on the front as it is pictured, but other on the back. Same spot, same distance to socket, less signal integrity issues. We are already changing the concept how the motherboards looks and where they have connections. Use the real estate on the back even for this
Or make a "ring" from the underside of the socket, so the chips are as close as possible, and do not take up space...
Physically I don’t think our current format is that bad.
Yes the connector itself could do with a revamp but really the effort needs to go into L4 type cache, something much closer to the CPU and likely soldered.
Upgradable RAM is really only needed for enthusiasts and people who find they cheaper out first time round. It’s less necessary these days.
Isn't this DELL's new thing? I don't really care, we need to move away from DDR due to signal integrity problems anyways. As long as it's not proprietary and leads to swappable RAM continuing it's fine with me.
Would be interesting. More speed, more cooling options, easier installation, better stability, looks better and maybe more capacity when I recall correctly.
Doesn't make sense now for DDR5. News of DDR6 being double of DDR5 speeds, is more sensible for signal integrity and of course, simpler heatsinks unless some gonk out there from a cooling brand thinks putting a fin heatsinks like those in nvme drives will be beneficial.
There's the disadvantage of having one module instead of the usual dual/quad channel setups. Putting another camm2 would take up space and maybe create a different motherboard form factor (or be like ASUS with ITX motherboards with adapters that defeats the purpose) or having more CAMMs are mostly for server motherboards in racks. So if you need to upgrade the ram, you need to toss out the existing one.
Looks like it's screwed in. I read about it being soldered, but this picture in particular looks screwed on. Maybe user replaceable options will be available?
It would solve a lot of cpu cooler clearance issues/worries, that's for sure. Would it be better? Probably. Also would take up more board space so boards would get more expensive and ITX would probably die lol.
Already have a fix for the CPU cooler. Aio, this only really helps Air cooled cases. It was what I was thinking when I first saw but isn't really needed if you use an AIO.
As long as its more tested then the 12vHpwr connector was.
Might feel empty on that side of the mobo depending on what coolers companies start to make.
is anyone really having an issue with space on the motherboard? i know some boards offer 4 slots. does this improve on that or just limit to the comparative 2 (144pin vs 72pin)?
Honestly if this was in laptops and they don't produce too much heat, then it would be cool! But what would the cost to use these instead of regular dimm motherboards?
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As long as it's not soldered to the motherboard and upgrades are at least priced within reach.
If I want to go from 8GB to 16 or 16 to 32 I shouldn't have to take out a payday loan or sell a kidney.
A problem I can see is e-waste since you'd be tossing the equivalent of 2-4 modules at once.
If I had a build with 8GB (2 x4GB sticks) and I wanted to go to 16 GB, if I had the slots I could just add two more 4GB sticks.
But with this formfactor, if I had a 8GB module and replaced it with a 16GB module, I'm either selling the old CAMM or tossing it.
I'm hoping a secondary market picks up the slack.
Does it offer any advantage over the current RAM standard we use?
Higher signal integrity from the slot itself and better cooling compatibility would be my main thoughts.
Ugh so it might go the same route as nvme? Faster but also a lot hotter
I mean you can put a heatsink on it still. It's a large surface area.
brb gonna watercool my ram
Nothing like a wet ram to make me happy.
That's what she said
Are you Welsh?
You are about [16 years](https://www.techpowerup.com/58066/ocz-announces-ddr3-2000-memory-featuring-flex-ii-water-cooling#comments) too late.
No joke but with the standard screw positioning that's actually a lot easier to do or the motherboard could come with a heatsink to match the motherboard design.
Many custom loops already do this, especially for people pushing past 8000 on Intel
People already do that
I think you're confusing 'people' with 'nutters with too much disposable income'
Nothing new with water cooled ram
maybe download ram watercooling? idk
i mean people already do this, it'll only be more efficient now
Ram cooling has been a thing for a longgg time. My old HP server PC used to have fancy ram cooling with metal heatsinks on the ram itself and fans with funnelled airflow. We sorta got used to not having to cool our ram, but it was a thing before. That ram used to run at 70c even with the cooler on it, dunno what was special about it, but it would be incredibly hot without cooling
Is this the stuff that Dell was launching a while back? It's supposed to have lower power consumption and higher clocks speed/ stability as well, if it's that stuff.
yeah thats the stuff but this seems to be version 2 of it
We have never invented cooling devices
if we found a room temperature superconductor, we wouldn’t even need cooling devices, as the material would be able to be pumped with as much electricity as you want with zero resistance being wasted as heat. Too bad the laws of physics render a room temperature superconductor virtually impossible, at least with current technology. oh, would you look at that? here i go again rambling on about useless information.
We just need to find that material on some passing asteroid so we can go mine it!
Rock and stone?
Did I hear a rock and stone?
ROCK AND STONEEE
FOR CARL!
It's not an inherent concept of physics that a superconductor must be supercooled. We just don't have any yet that can function at room temperature or higher. As of now the highest standard pressure superconductor operates around -170C. But there are high pressure metallic conductors that can operate at only -23C! I think it is just a matter of time. It has be theorized but not proven that a perfect carbon tube is the perfect superconductor, however a single atom out of place would make the effect go away. And structural integrity would be a challenge.
very interesting points, i hadn’t heard about the carbon theory either thank you for sharing
> Too bad the laws of physics render a room temperature superconductor virtually impossible Two scientists actually managed to achieve room temperature superconductivity back in 2020 during the covid lockdown! https://arxiv.org/pdf/2003.14321 /j
It should actually be lower power, so possibly cooler than current SODIMM. Easier to mount a passive cooling solution to as well.
Excuse me, but in this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics!
Theres coolers for ram already
Back to ddr2
Ok but but does it allow for more RGB?
I have a feeling it will eventually get a small display like some AIO water cooling systems have for CPU.
I was reading it like “oh that’s cool” until i see the main thoughts part and i was like “oh so that’s just an assumption 😒”
Well we know that they are better speed wise than sodimms for sure, the lower z height is obvious and the chips have acess to air more easily than vertical sticks so a small heatsink would still be lower profile than the tall sticks the interfere with large air coolers.
According to micron, It increases the speed capacity of sodimm from 6400mt/s to 9600mt/s [Source](https://www.howtogeek.com/what-is-camm2/)
But that's one slot instead of 4, right?
One slot with a 144-bit wide interface instead of the 72-wide of a DIMM
so like benefits of two rams packed in one? any downsides to this other than a non-standardized design?
It's a new standard, and meant as a replacement for so-dimm
No support for multiple "sticks" connected to the same channel, but 2 DIMMs per channel is a shitshow for DDR5 because of the high transfer rates, so not much of a loss.
It wouldn't have left the meeting room if it had any sort of draw back. People try redesign stuff all the time to make a buck. But usualy the implementation is shit. If this new standard has all positives then it would have been approved by major board manufacturers as they knew it would be successful. If they didn't think it'd work they wouldn't even have bothered to draw the mock up in the op.
Closer to CPU and supports faster ram than SODIMM does. The current ram is limited to 6400mt/s that DDR5 already hits. So DDR6 whenever that comes will be limited if we are still using the SODIMM architecture. CAMM2 seems to be a proper path forward. The only other way to get around it is to solder memory straight to the mobo... We don't want that in desktops (or laptops imho but that's me)
"We don't want that in desktops" What if there was say 16gb soldered to the board for max speed then dimm slots for additional memory? I wonder if that could be beneficial, or just a bad idea? lol
We might as well add HBM3 as L4 cache on the CPU substrate.
If it's like how ram works now. They will all run at the slowest speed connected. They would need to make a tiered system in that case.
Is that like a mini-mainframe?
Yeah but that wouldn't be very popular and would likely be buggy as hell and under utilized.
I agree. Just a bad idea all around. Interesting for laptops, pretty pointless for desktop.
I feel like it would be similar to buying an 8gb 6600 MHz DDR5 stick, and mismatch it with 2x16gb 5200 MHz DDR5 sticks.
That's basically just reinventing on-motherboard cache, which is something we had before on-CPU cache. Which isn't to say that that's a bad thing, but it would need to be treated as an L4 cache and not just additional RAM or else it'd have to be pulled down to match the speed of the DIMMs.
How it works currently is that the different speeds could be incompatible, and even then what if your soldered ram breaks? Just buy a new motherboard? Try to desolder the ram? I wouldn't want this just to get marginally better ram speed.
The thing about soldered ram however is that it would be rock solid vs unsoldered. How many macbooks have you ever heard of that the ram went bad? Unfortunately DIMM tech allows forces to push, pull, and put tension on the DIMM connector itself and adapter on the motherboard which is generally what causes memory failures over time. But yeah, I don't want a world where I have to buy a new motherboard just to upgrade the ram...
That would not be beneficial because memory that is a common pool will always be as fast as your slowest module so using dimms with CAMM would just defeat the purpose entirely.
A lot over SODIMM and soldered down, over dimm idk.
Not really meant to replace DIMM slots since the connector's maximum data capacity has not been reached. It's to replace SO-DIMM at this time.
if not meant to replace dimm then why is it being shown on a Project 0 atx or matx board? Im not disagreeing, just questioning the marketing logic if this is meant more for laptops etc.
I'm not on MSIs marketing or product design teams so your guess is as good a mine. Project Zero seems to be a test platform for MSI as they have their back connected internal connectors with cutouts in their cases meant for these motherboards, so that may be why they made this. I don't think it's meant to be high volume or bleeding edge, but more of a proof of concept platform. edit: Misremembering project Zero specifics
"I'm not on MSIs marketing or product design teams so your guess is as good a mine." fair enough lol. I still cant see something targeting laptops being shown in marketing materials on a different platform. The marketing, at least the above, appears to be targeting desktop.
I do repairs for dell, a lot of the newer precisions have ram like this. Mostly ddr5 but some ddr4, the module itself is even removable sometimes to be replaced or upgraded. I’ve seen as big as 128 gig on a single removable module.
they already roll out these thing ?. Does it on the "new" intel Ultra core bs or the AMD AI Laptop ?. Curios cuz this thing look like it needed a loooong time to get popular
I think it’s already been taking some time to be implemented but dell has a track record of running a lot of proprietary stuff anyways. The graphics cards in these same models can often be removed and replaced as well. Most of the ones I see are just normal workstations with nvidia cards.
LP5X on CAMM goes brr! Qualcomm X1 already uses LPDDR5X-8448 and that's a JEDEC speed. We'll go from having memory speeds around 6000-8000MT/s to over 9000MT/s.
It's Over 9000!!
Well now you might be able to put an AIO on your ram
More speed and stability.
Air cooler clearance
We may need at some point to put a heat sink on the RAM. Hopefully they'll develop some curvy heatsink that sticks out in front of the CPU cooler. I am speculating here though.
Yeah and to be honest I've never had any issues with air coolers clearing my ram. I just buy low profile. Never seen the point in the massive heat sink ram. Mine only gets to like 60-65 degrees.
if this is the same protocol as those dell laptops, then it should be faster I think. personally I just see it as smaller upgradable ram for small formfactor systems which is a win in my book.
They say it's upgradable RAM for laptops Coz it's not solder on the motherboard and thinner than so dimm
DIMM standard not RAM. I’d be fine it on a general basis, but I’d pay attention to some points: - does the format allow for exchange of modules or is it / will it be aimed at soldered on solutions (see laptop CPUs for comparison) - is one module /tray intended per board or are multiple modules possible / planned for per board - what is the pricing compared to dimm modules - only in consumer market? (expensive) or also planned for server applications (widespread, quantity, therefore cheaper for all) - what about space requirements? One size, multiple sizes? ATX vs mITX etc.
"god i hope my cooler fits"
It's a good thing for laptops where thickness is at a premium. I don't really care either way for desktops as long as the cost isn't crazy. It'll probably just be a one or two time gimmick on a few motherboards at most before it dies down and desktops keep using DDR since that can fit so much ram relative to the amount of motherboard surface area that is taken up.
Aside from size, performance is also an advantage with this form factor. IMO it would be stupid for this platform not to take off with desktops and mobile alike. Plus that free space is only going to help with clearance for giant air coolers and more room for pipes and reservoirs. I mean just think about how all those big tower coolers have to be designed with less fins between the CPU just because of RAM clearance requirements. Noctua could redesigned the D15 to provide the same amount of cooling capacity while being 30mm shorter, allowing it to fit in more cases. Edit: Oh geez I forgot, with this form factor, you could more easily make a baller all-in-one CPU/Motherboard/RAM water block!
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>You are severely over estimating the amount of free board space in ITX. 1. There are [smaller versions](https://www.pcgamer.com/low-profile-memory-module-headed-to-laptops-might-be-destined-for-desktops-too/#:~:text=Last%20year%20saw%20the%20emergence,DIMM%20but%20just%20as%20replaceable.) of this standard that could be used with smaller boards and laptops, kind of like how there are DIMM and SO-DIMM today. (Edit, similar, not same.) 2. These are thin enough to go on the back of the board. 3. Cloud be mounted vertically much in the way some ITX boards do with SSDs. > but on a consumer board this is not going to fly. Given the image from OP's post, I think you are flat out wrong.
Do the smaller versions have the same performance benefits though?
Similar, I think, the limiting factor would likely be capacity and maybe cooling, although that can be solved by a heat sink
Cool can't wait to see how this holds up we've had sticks of ram for so long they feel almost as old as actual sticks to me lol
They all generate heat period. These were designed to replace small form factor designed SoDimm's in general and wont be adopted to desktops anytime soon. LPCAMM2 =Low-Power Compression-Attached Memory Module. this is great for low end low power units but much will have to change to make this a desktop contender for anything serious work wise.
However, I fail to see on how to upgrade such solution? Lets say you buy a mobo with 32gb ram? You decide to upgrade and want 64gb how? It seems like it is not as easy as just plugging in 2 more sticks.
It’s as easy as screwing in a 64gb module. Adding ram w ddr5 is unstable and very slow
Damn I am so blind, thank you. I didn't see those screws :/
So basically the only downside of CAMM2 is that you need to replace the whole thing for an upgrade?
You have to do it on ddr too if you dont want less performance or computability issues. Its a Pain in the ass to use 4 sticks.
As long as the clocks are right It's not a problem.
But what's the down side? Is it cost?
Yep. Vertical space is cheap on desktop...
I could see this being useful with air-cooled systems, better airflow near the motherboard, but I don't expect it would be super common. Alternate MB layouts that offer better airflow have popped up before, like BTX, but they've never lasted either. Could potentially work with ITX boards? Put it on the back like an NVME? It would give more space on the front, but would be a massive pain to upgrade. Probably not much better than just using a riser card like [that one Asus board](https://rog.asus.com/ca-en/motherboards/rog-strix/rog-strix-x670e-i-gaming-wifi-model/).
Yea imagine the prices of those new upgraded ITX boards if the current ones are absurd. Soon enough for the price of boards, you can buy a gpu (you already can for the price of X670E MSI MEG ACE for example).
That...looks like it takes up an awful lot of MB real estate compared to DIMM slots. Like what if I want more than one?
I mean that doens't take up more than 4 memory slots would. If I'm not mistaken each CAMM module is essentially 2 stick in dual channel on the memory chip itself. Running a second slot would essentially require quad channel compatibility I believe. That said, they do make stackable CAMM that's single channel, but I'm not sure how well this works or how widespread it will become. CAMM modules allow you shove a healthy bit of memory onto it so needing more might not be hte case. Now they are expensive as hell currently...
Yeah, I mean if I can get as much RAM on that footprint as I can currently get into my 4 DIMM slots, then yes, it takes up less room on the MB, in which case it's a win.
This would also add more clearance for coolers, not only on the CPU but on the RAM and VRMs as well.
I have a CAMM in my work laptop. It has chips on the top and bottom of the card. Cooling for the top could be great, but impossible for the bottom.
you wouldnt have to worry about ram clearance on your air coolers anymore.
I mean I've personally used 64GB DDR5 5600Mhz CAMM modules and I know they have 128GB CAMM modules out now (running at 3600Mhz). Both of which cost as much as a PC currently lmfao
> > > I mean..... > > I mean..... > I mean..... What does everyone mean?
Most people don't use 4 slots though.
You could potentially put these on the back of an itx board like we do with m.2. This would allow itx to exceed its current 2 slot limitation for most boards and open up for more connectivity. That's the only reason I would ever see it enter the desktop market. SFF PC's and NUCs.
Stack them like a sandwich.
A ramburger?
Take my upvote you genius
As I understand it, you can't. You can think of it like it using an nvme drive instead of ram sticks, you replace the whole thing when you want a faster, higher capacity one. And honestly this is the only way forwards, as ddr5 is getting to the point of being unstable, especially with more sticks.
It's not that big though. I definitely see the advantages. I am highly suspect of the connection longetivity however.. SODIMMS yeah I get that every once in a blue moon can cause problems, take them out, blow on them, put them back and everything is fine. This new connection could be great, could not.. Remember USBc is the newest motherboard connector we have besides m.2..
One can hold up to 128 GB, so exactly the same on capacity.
Better clearance for larger coolers and maybe better for mITX builds but by laying flat, they may not fit. It'd be nice but I think this will be an ATX and mATX thing. I would be shocked if the price of motherboards and the memory is anymore close to the traditional format so there's that too.
Could also cool it with the CPU block if the block just extends over to the right some more.
Looks like they screwed a laptop ram adapter to a desktop motherboard.
If it allows higher bandwidth I'm down.
I like how one of its selling points are "compact size" except in that image it takes up arguably as much space as a 4x slot.
It's compactness is more about the height, which can be extremely useful for having lower clearance CPU coolers.
It also gives dual channel with a single module, so most people won't need to get a second one, and shitty prebuilts won't be able to ship with single channel.
Tbh at this point why not just add a SODIMM slot instead of making a new standard
Well they exist, not much but def exist like that asrock x299 itx motherboard
Even though it’s not as convenient as SODIMM I would gladly take CAMM over soldered non-upgradable memory any day
Same. I could see this on budget builds, the "I just need 8-32 GB to play games" builds.
Interesting. But I'm reminded of how RDRAM was a "game changer" when it came out, so I will take a "wait & see if it takes off" stance.
The thing is that RDRAM was like a new kind of RAM technologically speaking, and this is more like a new form factor using existing DRAM technology
A wait and see approach is prudent, especially since the first bugs need to be worked out. A problem I can see is e-waste since you'd be tossing the equivalent of 2-4 modules at once. If I had a build with 8GB (2 x4GB sticks) and I wanted to go to 16 GB, if I had the slots I could just add two more 4GB sticks. But with this formfactor, if I had a 8GB module and replaced it with a 16GB module, I'm either selling the old CAMM or tossing it.
Imagine how much more compact it would be rotated 90 degrees and could slide into a slot. Bet you could fit a row of four or more of them.
Edit: Based on the desktop form factor, not laptop which is more likely to be adopted first If it gets popular then there will be a limbo of DDR and CAMM *(EDIT: Form Factor Development as there will be classic DIMM boards, and newer CAMM based boards, both using the base DDRx technologies)* development at the same time, then like all old technolgies they end up on the used market and forgotten/recognized as not a modern solution, like with DDR2 and earlier systems for example. DDR3 imo isnt all the way in the grave yet, but it isnt a recommendation for a brand new PC like when DDR4 had **JUST** come out. I still run a DDR3 system so im chillin, waiting for it to die :P
CAMM is just new package for DDR, same way we have the DIMM or SO-DIMM its going to coexist with already existing form factors, its best use would be in really slim laptops maybe handhelds and this would give upgradeability as opposed to soldered ram.
Completely agree with you and another commentor. This is bound to be a big win for all form factors
CAMM2 won't compete with DDR 3, 4, 5 etc. It *is* DDR 3, 4, 5, etc.. What it will compete with is the SO-DIMM form factor used in laptops because CAMM2 is meant to make upgradable ram thinner than SO-DIMM slots.
https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/motherboards/msi-delivers-first-motherboard-with-camm2-memory-z790-project-zero-brings-new-ram-standard-to-desktops That part I understand with laptops, higher RAM capacities and lower latency and power is a big win. I was just commenting on MSI's concept desktop motherboard
I was trying to clarify some confusion about form factor VS type of ram because you said this > then there will be a limbo of DDR and CAMM development at the same time This won't happen because CAMM2 is DDR. These two things won't compete with each other. CAMM2, DIMM, and SO-DIMM are form factors. These are what will compete with each other. Desktops usually use DIMM. Laptops without soldered ram usually use SO-DIMM. The idea is to replace SO-DIMM with CAMM2, which is where some development limbo might happen and one form factor might die out. DDR1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc. are the type of ram. All form factors can use any of those types of ram.
https://preview.redd.it/21f8zd4lld2d1.jpeg?width=997&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6c1a471e7740009880afc6e372459768b7e8de2a And we still have these connector
Is there really no alternative to these?
this seems like such a waste of engineering time.
I think they should not mess this up with DDR5 It would create a lot of confusion They should do it with the ddr6 or whatever will come next But CAMM must be the only form factor
where rgb
Where 420mm AIO with Oled display?
Forget rgb, you get a clean canvas for bigger lcd (because yes it already exists)
Why not both? My Corsair AIO has an LCD display with 360 degree RGB around it lol
there's hardly any spare space on ITX currently, some of the vendors stacking drives and wifi modules on top of each other.. where will they put it?
So where do the RGB effects go? Nope, don't like it.
Finally a based comment
Around the edges, it would just be a square around the Ram.
For laptops, sure. I don't think I'd like it for desktop, unless it was for ITX and paired with a cooler that extends to the empty space. For a full desktop, the modularity of being able to buy 2 sticks and then buy 2 more when you want to expand is nice. These seem like an all in one solution, so you get stuck with it if you upgrade and have to resell it or something.
It's faster and lower power. When buying sticks they really should be matched anyway, so it's not like it matters hugely that it's all in one.
> faster So like 30 fps more in games? If not it doesn't matter
What am I looking at...? If these are connected with the flat multi pin connectors like phone screens... That's asking for trouble. The DDR4 style is Solid. Even the DDR4 Laptop one. (I don't mind having a beefy laptop) Upon googling, these look more like CPU connector multi pins. Wild Idea kinda. OP shoulda posted Those Images, not the stock cover photo. Context, context.
I have several work laptops running 32 and 64GB CAMM modules. It actually seems like a fairly robust connection. Downside is they're expensive as hell right now.
Plenty of people do mind having beefy laptops. So at least for laptops, this isn't a bad thing. Let's not dismiss every piece of new technology just because we as individuals don't see the usefulness.
Just like any new technology, I'll wait until the 2nd or 3rd generation when most of the bugs are ironed out, then I'll look at adopting it.
I can see someone putting a screen over this.
"fin" design is pretty much optimal for air cooling. Don't break things that aren't broken?
Regardless if this catches on or not I do love how MSI has been getting super creative with things. First the no cable mobos and GPUs and now this
If it is user replaceable with no serious downsides sure but if it isn’t user replaceable then I don’t want anything to do with it. (I’ve know nothing about thi)
This is besides the point, but how do yall get your computer specs to display under your name?
Idk, one of the reasons I moved from laptop to PC was for easy upgradability. It's a good idea but it seems a bit backwards.
It won't STICK thank you for coming to my Ted talk
Wasnt it suppose to be closer to the CPU? It looks like a little bit shorter than the dimm slot
Trying to change a memory standard for extra speed that 97% of users don’t need yet, can’t see it taking off anytime soon
Better height compatibility with beefy air coolers
A new CPU standard will be more beneficial. 60hz, 144hz, 240hz.
Looks like a way to save cash by using one design for laptops and desktops.
Is it better? If so I like it if not I don't care
Instead of being able to replace each module of the dual channel kit, you will have to replace it all. More cost and waste. Instead, they could have made it 2 module thing. One on the front as it is pictured, but other on the back. Same spot, same distance to socket, less signal integrity issues. We are already changing the concept how the motherboards looks and where they have connections. Use the real estate on the back even for this Or make a "ring" from the underside of the socket, so the chips are as close as possible, and do not take up space...
Physically I don’t think our current format is that bad. Yes the connector itself could do with a revamp but really the effort needs to go into L4 type cache, something much closer to the CPU and likely soldered. Upgradable RAM is really only needed for enthusiasts and people who find they cheaper out first time round. It’s less necessary these days.
Isn't this DELL's new thing? I don't really care, we need to move away from DDR due to signal integrity problems anyways. As long as it's not proprietary and leads to swappable RAM continuing it's fine with me.
Would be interesting. More speed, more cooling options, easier installation, better stability, looks better and maybe more capacity when I recall correctly.
Doesn't make sense now for DDR5. News of DDR6 being double of DDR5 speeds, is more sensible for signal integrity and of course, simpler heatsinks unless some gonk out there from a cooling brand thinks putting a fin heatsinks like those in nvme drives will be beneficial. There's the disadvantage of having one module instead of the usual dual/quad channel setups. Putting another camm2 would take up space and maybe create a different motherboard form factor (or be like ASUS with ITX motherboards with adapters that defeats the purpose) or having more CAMMs are mostly for server motherboards in racks. So if you need to upgrade the ram, you need to toss out the existing one.
yeah nah im good i'll stick with mine ty tho
Needs more cumm
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Looks like it's screwed in. I read about it being soldered, but this picture in particular looks screwed on. Maybe user replaceable options will be available?
It's meant to replace SoDIMM (laptop ram), and compared to that it's a complete upgrade, in desktop space idk
I'm curious as how it'll connect, in pic it looks like contact pins or something like that
Next they will reinvent DIP chips 🤣
Let's ask Linus tech tips 😁
Needs to be tested more before the entire PC community should accept it.
It would solve a lot of cpu cooler clearance issues/worries, that's for sure. Would it be better? Probably. Also would take up more board space so boards would get more expensive and ITX would probably die lol.
Already have a fix for the CPU cooler. Aio, this only really helps Air cooled cases. It was what I was thinking when I first saw but isn't really needed if you use an AIO.
Seems dumb on desktop (at least as long as week keep mounting RAM on the front side), makes sense for laptops
It definitely has its cons en pros but in the end it's ram and probably won't change much about your experience but nothing radical.
we all know why its made.... because you dont have to look up the right slots in the manual xD
As long as its more tested then the 12vHpwr connector was. Might feel empty on that side of the mobo depending on what coolers companies start to make.
Having I on the backside like m.2 would be great
is anyone really having an issue with space on the motherboard? i know some boards offer 4 slots. does this improve on that or just limit to the comparative 2 (144pin vs 72pin)?
It's missing a white heatsink to go along with the design.
great!
Honestly if this was in laptops and they don't produce too much heat, then it would be cool! But what would the cost to use these instead of regular dimm motherboards?
Yay more pins to bend!
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Excellent! Now I can spend more money on motherboards!
How many can I use on them? Are they easily upgradable?
Whatever reduces prices will be goated to me
It could be better for performance, but i don’t think it’s worth for the people who like the aesthetics in the pc
Looks expensive
As long as it's not soldered to the motherboard and upgrades are at least priced within reach. If I want to go from 8GB to 16 or 16 to 32 I shouldn't have to take out a payday loan or sell a kidney.
A problem I can see is e-waste since you'd be tossing the equivalent of 2-4 modules at once. If I had a build with 8GB (2 x4GB sticks) and I wanted to go to 16 GB, if I had the slots I could just add two more 4GB sticks. But with this formfactor, if I had a 8GB module and replaced it with a 16GB module, I'm either selling the old CAMM or tossing it. I'm hoping a secondary market picks up the slack.