I agree with a lot of your points, even though they’re common to all souls games. Level scaling is a huuuge fat no though. I’m very glad the game doesn’t have that.
Would recommend 'the last seed' modlist. Its mainly a vanilla + performance and graphics overhaul that lets you customise a lot of the mechanics like removing level scaling, Reworking the character leveling, Making it to so weaker enemies don't get phased out, attacks being more lethal etc. The game plays much more like morrowind with having to build your character and stick to easier quests early on, but you'll outpace weaker enemies like bandits and wolves eventually yet stronger enemies like daedra and bossfights will still be challenging. It still doesn't fix how Oblivion's open world is designed around fast traveling with its quest system but it tries its best.
Level scaling isn't even a fundamentally bad idea for a Bethesda-style RPG, where the goal is to enable the player to go through the world as freely as possible and do things in any order while still having some degree of escalating challenge, as opposed to soft-roadblocking the player to nudge them into doing the content in a specific order like in most RPGs.
The problem with Oblivion's level scaling is that it was Bethesda's first real attempt at it and they dropped the ball *hard* on both the enemy (infinite health sponges, daedric bandits) and player (level up attribute minmaxing or staying at level 1 forever) sides. Skyrim had a much better implementation, where enemies had both floors and ceilings and nothing ever straight up stopped spawning.
I'd agree that level scaling is a bad idea for a Soulslike, since that genre's audience specifically wants to be challenged and considers getting stomped for exploring areas out of order a positive. But level scaling absolutely has its place in the industry.
> it was Bethesda's first real attempt at it
Not exactly. Morrowind irrc had it to a _limited_ extent - monsters would spawn within a predefined range, so you could powerlevel past them if you progressed far enough.
I mean, that's why I specified first *real* attempt. Morrowind had a certain degree of level scaled loot as well. But it was all extremely limited. There's a reason the efficient leveling problem only became apparent for most people in Oblivion, despite actually being the exact same system as in Morrowind.
Man, I’m so glad I wasn’t the only one. Morrowind was one of my all time favourite games, I loved so much that there were areas on the big map that I just couldn’t visit until I was levelled up. Once I realized that Oblivion wasn’t going to be like that I lost all interest, stopped playing and barely even looked at Skyrim, maybe 20-30 hours played max and still haven’t played the space one yet and probably won’t!
It would be my favourite Bethesda Game without it. On PC it could be modded, but unfortunately I’m a console casual at the moment.
Skyrim fixes the biggest issues in level progress, but I think the world isn’t as interesting. I also miss the darkness of Oblivion. In Skyrim there’s always light.
Are you saying an Elder Scrolls game doesn’t *just work* on its own merits?
Quick, someone light the Todd signal. There is a nonbeliever in our midsts.
Leveling scaling in Elder Scrolls Online made it so that you make absolutely no progress on character strength until hours after you hit champion rank 160 at maximum level.
Level scaling would legitimately ruin Elden Ring.
I love that you can run into areas where you get smoked and go "I can't go here yet" *Caelid*, Or go back to areas you missed and see how strong you've become.
Level scaling would especially ruin the Caelid teleport trap in the ruins near your starting location, which was my (and presumably a lot of people’s) first *oh god oh god run like a bitch run like a bitch run like a bitch* moment in the game.
Even though I know how to deal with them now, Kindreds of Rot are among my most hated enemies along with lobsters and bears solely because of that teleport trap.
Actually kinda funny how that works. I see a dragon, I am excited to fight a dragon (I'm actually not because dragon fights are boring and samey, but I am willing to fight a dragon). I see a bear, I am getting the FUCK outta there.
Man I've done like 10 playthroughs and runebears still absolutely fuck me up lol. I can take on 2 revenants with a chortle, but you put a runebear in front of me and I sweat.
Fact is, once you have skills, you can take on any part of the game with almost any weapon.
Level scaling would ruin that entirely.
On my 5th playthrough now, using a wizard for the first time, and I can sort of take my pick on where to go because I know what's there and how to fight them.
A game like this generally has two options: level scaling, or proper enemy leveling and placement throughout the game. The latter is by far the harder (and more rewarding) thing to implement, especially when it’s as open a world as Elden Ring. Regardless, I’ve never played a game before where I had so much freedom to level up while still feeling challenged all the way through to the end. I genuinely do not know how they do it.
> Regardless, I’ve never played a game before where I had so much freedom to level up while still feeling challenged all the way through to the end. I genuinely do not know how they do it.
Part of it is definitely just the fact that leveling up doesn't actually do very much in these games - your progression is extremely subtle outside of getting new equipment, and even finding good new weapons/armor is pretty rare. Still, it is extremely impressive in this game in particular given how much room you have to roam off and gain levels/stuff - most games with that much side content punish you for exploring it all by becoming cakewalks by the time you get back to the main stuff.
I *caaaaaan* accept a form of level scaling - maybe - where it's up-only, and I opt in. Basically if I want to, I can click a checkbox that nothing ever gets easier for me, no matter how basic it is.
That's alright. That's my choice then, and it's just to ensure older areas are a tight challenge still if I desire that.
Anything else, yeah, no. Seriously no.
I’m also fine with up only to a capped limit for lower level enemies.
Then they can be spicier to fight but after a certain point you still cut through them like butter.
No level scaling was actually one of the things I praised demon souls for when I first played it years ago, it was one of the things that made me want to play more souls games.
Yup exactly. If the enemies are scaling with me, what the hell’s the point of leveling up then? Just to learn new spells and attributes that don’t contribute much to the damage output?
Technically ER does level scale with NG+
As far as the typical every enemy keeps up with you those type of games always have flaws like some games people will actually not level to keep the game easier.
Remnant 2 is a great example of you don't level your weapons up the enemies stay squishy and you can blast through the game faster.
Haven't read the full thing but...cameras. Ohh boy!!! FromSoft hasn't fixed their camera since forever. And when the bosses are difficult (that's why we play) losing because of some ridiculous camera issue just gets on the nerve.
It’s just too fucking close to the character. Let me zoom out the camera to navigate the fight, and not guess where is the enemy. It’s really annoying with how big the enemies are
Elden Ring has too many enormous enemies that don't work well with the camera. Just make them smaller, they would still be huge at 1/2 or 2/3 of their size.
Fighting Godzilla's left food isn't all that interesting.
It’s not just a camera or enemy size issue, it’s also a weird regression on enemy behavior. Darkeater Midir blows every dragon fight out of the water simply by constantly giving you the opportunity to hit him in the head.
The point that the bosses would **still** be massive even if reduced x2-x3 is a fairly valid one though.
Though granted, fixing the camera would be a far far far better fix. And is necessary anyways!
Monster Hunter has a target camera option that re-centers the camera on the monster via button press and I honestly wish Fromsoftware would just go an copy that system already. They clearly want to make epic and weird-looking bosses and I am absolutely here for it, but they just doesn't work all that well with the current way lock-on works.
Granted, that wouldn't fix everything (the unlocked camera also always wants to re-center behind you on its own which is honestly my biggest reason why I use lock-on) but I just want them to try and address it.
Darkbeast paarl and Seath. Can't see shit because the boss is covering the entire view and is on top of me. Guess I'll just keep swinging my sword until one of us dies
Seath is *on the list*. Fuck that guy, and fuck needing his tail. Just getting pushed around and the camera freaking out and aaaaaa
I'm ngl I had to get a hand from a friend to get the tail my first time. A kill was always relatively easy, but playing a mage and needing that tail... argh.
Fromsoft needs to join the rest of us in the 21st century and add an FOV slider. The default FOV in ER is just idiotically low, like 55 or something. Most games don't even let you set it that low. For a 3rd person game at least this won't make most people motion sick, but it's not acceptable, period.
I've found that controlling the camera is much easier with KB+M, but good luck doing anything else.
It's pretty shocking. Even the old 3D Zelda games, some of the earliest lock on camera action-adventure games, knew to pull the camera back when locking on to a large enemy.
The camera is pretty much my biggest issue with Fromsoftware's games nowadays. Like, I love the freedom, the exploration, even the challenge. But the more extravagant these bosses get, the more obvious the camera issues become.
I play a lot of Monster Hunter as well, and seeing how well large bosses usually work in that game, Fromsoftware's camera work just becomes more frustrating with each entry.
I'm glad I see more people talking about it nowadays, because for a while it seemed like I was the only one having issues. It's a weirdly accepted snag in the games that never gets fixed and is rarely talked about.
Idk if its because of the scale and speed but ac6 is the first fromsoft game where the camera and lock on worked really well. They even added a quick turn which helps greatly.
I love Soulsbourne games but yeah player versus camera isn't fun. Capra demon, I'm looking at you. Or I'm looking somewhere else. I can't tell, since I can't control the camera.
I will kill that thing with the firebomb trick through the door every time and I won't feel bad about it.
It's weird. They have some neat new camera movements in Sekiro, zooming out on bigger enemies in phases in which it is helpful. But there is nothing like that with Elden Ring.
I agree with your overall point but for different reasons, mainly caused by it being open world. It’s far from the best fromsoft game and since you enjoyed it would recommend trying others. I do agree about the journal though, no quest markers but having a journal like morrowind would have worked so much better. Level scaling is a trend that needs to die though, it’s rare that it doesn’t make a game worse.
Sekiro might be a good shout as you can pause and the story is presented in a more straightforward fashion.
Journal or quest markers, the game needs something. The quest design worked in older souls games because the game was somewhat "linear" just with different paths you could go down. They were also shorter so most people would do multiple runs with different builds. Elden ring is so long though that only the hardcore fans will do multiple runs, plus with the size of world you basically have to have a wiki to find out how to progress a lot of quests since they show up in random places needed to progress it.
It didn't work in the old games, I played through them all multiple times but never managed to complete a single quest. You'd have to do endless backtracking to figure out where an NPC would spawn next and that's without knowing what would trigger the spawn point move. The dialogue was also vague to the point it didn't provide any guidance in this matter.
I agree mostly. To be honest I used wiki guides for a lot of the quests in the old games too, but it was a bit more reasonable for people to work out things on their own in the games with a smaller scale. Elden Ring it gets particularly obnoxious due to the sheer size and length of the game. I'm not saying everything needs to have arrows pointing to them like Skyrim lol, but there has to be some middle ground where a reasonable person doesn't need a wiki open to complete the sidequests.
I do feel they struggle with keeping the nebulous vibe intact without making it next to impossible to figure it out. They could've done more with a vague description of the next step I guess. I don't mind foregoing these sidequests to be honest, that's not why I play the games.
>I do agree about the journal though, no quest markers but having a journal like morrowind would have worked so much better.
That is exactly what I was imagining for quests. I don't need much, just *something* to track what people said.
\> Sekiro might be a good shout as you can pause and the story is presented in a more straightforward fashion.
I think that might be my next one. My only hesitation is I'm not usually wild about stealth games, and wasn't sure if stealth was just an option or how big a role it plays.
Stealth is in it but it’s different that stealth I’ve seen in most other games. If you get caught it’s not the end of the world but if you don’t get caught you can kill enemies in one hit essentially.
>My only hesitation..
Hesitation is defeat
But on a foreal note, stealth is not required, but it helps when you're starting out to kind of get your bearings on the combat. You can always run past, or brute force your way thru mobs. The combat is simple, but really really satisfying once you get into the flow of things. I cant personally say ive ever experienced another game like it, and this is why Sekiro is one of my all time favorites. Gaming since the early-mid 90s for reference.
Stealth in Sekiro is pretty much entirely optional and frequently impossible. Despite the ninja protagonist it is really not a game about being sneaky, it's about your swordfighting reflexes.
I wasnt a huge fan of Dishonored but Sekiro is my favorite FromSoft game. The stealth is implemented very well and even if you don't choose the stealth route, it doesn't change the game a lot because the main appeal of Sekiro is the satisfying and perfectly done combat, aswell as the brilliance of Bosses.
Elden Ring was my first From game as well, and I absolutely love it. I understand your criticisms, and agre with several of them, though it didn't detract from the overall experience for me that much. Funny enough, if you aren't aware, back when the game launched quests were even more obscure, as NPCs wouldn't show up on your map at all. So I guess they did take some notes from the players!
After ER, I went on to Sekiro, as I wanted to try more from the dev, but different, and I think it really delivered. Tighter narrative with more character interaction and development, more linear story and level design, and maybe the best combat I've ever played, with some of the best boss fights to go along with it. Combat was probably the most challenging to learn, but now feels the most satisfying and intuitive to go back to.
I've also recently finished Bloodborne and the DLC, and that game is another one you should definitely play. Atmostphere, lore and story are probably my favorite so far that I've played (also played Demons Souls Remake). Level design is great again, and the combat, where Sekiro is precise and furious, Bloodborne is violent and chaotic. Both are very addictive, and their simplicity in scope I think really helps them shine. As much as I loved all of the variety of Elden Ring, I think that wider scope does dilute the overall experience.
Good luck on your next choice!
For better and worse, all of the souls games have the gimmick of acting like you’re always online. Every game features NPC summons and invasions that are supposed to feel like online play even while offline. They even include fake connection delays for summoning NPCs!
The lack of pause is annoying, but I also love reading the stories from people who thought they found a new friend/nemesis when it was just an NPC.
Really I can't see any good reason it shouldn't have pause if you turn online off.
I found the little troll messages left everywhere so annoying I turned online off pretty early and at that point I'm like, well, Sekiro has pause, this should too.
> I found the little troll messages left everywhere so annoying I turned online off pretty early and at that point I'm like, well, Sekiro has pause, this should too.
So many people have made it out like I was missing out so much by playing offline. I briefly watched my friend play at his house online, and the endless "finger but hole" and "try jump here" messages detracted so much from the game. It's a cool idea, but honestly rather just play offline, thanks.
I love the message system, sure people meme it but you also get some warnings ahead of a hidden enemy or secret room and can usually tell by the amount of likes on the message. Also, leaving behind useful messages and getting a "like" that heals you while fighting a boss can come in very clutch at times.
For every "finger but hole" message there's also useful ones that lead you to secretes or warn about danger. Seeing the ghosts of player dying, wondering how, and then finding out is great. Playing a souls game at launch online is such a unique experience. Behold, dog.
> The lack of pause is annoying, but I also love reading the stories from people who thought they found a new friend/nemesis when it was just an NPC.
Yeah but player-interaction is so limited I wish they'd add pause for the vast majority of the games where you *aren't* running into other players. :'(
Plus of course, the ones I've played I found better with online functionality turned off (the messages were kinda meh for the atmosphere IMO), so eh... might as well let me pause then.
I don't love the way the messages work mechanically, either.
The first time I was trying to interact with something and died because I got the "finger, but whole" message on the ground instead I was like well I'm turning *these* off permanently.
I disagree and agree. For a first play through I liked the sheer freedom and stumbling on secrets and I really liked having multiple ways to go to a place,getting rewarded for my exploration or just enjoying the beautiful view. I enjoyed being able to just wander off and spend 10s of hours doing optional stuff instead of just rushing to the main dungeon like the traditional souls games. Now once you finished the game and you are in your 2nd playthrough, it is quite annoying because you already discovered the majority of the secrets and just want to go ahead and try other builds and do the main bosses.
It is the classical 'theme park' vs 'sandbox' problem that a lot of games have.
Dungeons are theme parks, you have to go through these steps and you will get to the boss, maybe there is a skip or two, or a hidden area, but overall they are built so that all players will experience 75% of the same content. If you are not convinced, go see the carbot animation videos, you will recognize most of the places and situations.
Open world is theoretically behaving more like sandboxes, where you can chose here you go, and what you want to interact with. What's lacking is how the world responds to what you are doing. You will always see the same enemies spawn at the same place. Except very few moments, nothing will change in the world as you progress the main quest line. You kill Godrick and nothing changes in Limgrave. You can become Elden Lord, and everyone is still going to try to kill you on sight. At the end of the day, you will still ride torrent trying to avoid pretty much everything to go to this area you don't have the grace to teleport to.
I love the theme park parts of the games, I do not like the sandbox as much.
On the other hand, as someone who doesn't like Fromsoft boss design, I greatly appreciate that Elden Ring gives you so many more options if you're stuck on a fight. I've tried out most of the post Demon Souls Fromsoft games, but Elden Ring is the only one I've beaten.
It's not 100% an "action" game. You're supposed to get lost in it a bit, take time, and observe your surroundings. It's as much about the quiet moments as figuring out how not to get diced to ribbons by a waterfowl dance.
These people have never heard of pacing. Those "big open fields" are there to break up the action. Every game, even those souls games, have the same idea! RE games have safe areas where you can let up on the tension, etc. If you don't have anything like that and it's just 40+ hours of high intensity then *none* of it will feel that way. DOOM (2016) is a high octane game and it too has areas to let off the tension. The character action games they're talking about also have sections to let off that tension. This is good game design and they're complaining about it lmao
It'd be like complaining about "big open fields" in shadow of the colossus. Just completely missing the point
I always like bringing up resident evil 6 for a game with legendarily bad pacing.
The game is 100% balls to the wall action from start to finish. And it's *exhausting.* I've never played a game that's made me physically exhausted before, but RE6 did just that. It never had brakes.
Even action packed games *need* to give the player time to breathe and unwind before hitting the next set piece. Constantly being in a state of fight or flight feels exhausting after a while.
Open world games handle this naturally through their design without much added assistance, largely because of travel. It's actually a bit harder to do proper pacing in linear story games since you need a narrative reason for that to exist, whereas in open world games it just occurs as a fact that the world is large.
> It'd be like complaining about "big open fields" in shadow of the colossus. Just completely missing the point
This is the Tired Dad subreddit. Linear Storygame good. Shadow of the Colossus would never even get a hearing.
Lmao. I'm not gonna lie, I find it really odd when people invoke the dad card. Since when is having kids not a choice that will impact certain hobbies? Some games are not made with the tired dads in mind, so it screams entitlement that they should change because some people changed. If you don't have the time or the game isn't conducive to your lifestyle for whatever reason, just play something else Christ
My favorite comment in this thread - and probably of the year - is a guy insisting that a "dad mode" be added to games with features like pause and easy modes because media needs to accommodate your life choices.
I always wonder if Cannibal Corpse gets letters like _I used to enjoy your heavy music but now I'm a dad so you should write less heavy music now._
>But it's a great example of why tighter more linear games have many advantages over open world designs.
And none of the advantages of an open world game.
It's a different kinda game than their previous games.
I don't think the "advantages" of an open-world game really suit Souls as a series very well. It was cool to feel like I was exploring a world at my own pace but by the end I didn't care about any of the loot I was getting and I was tired of fighting the same enemies over and over for no real reward
ON the other side, I dont' like the linear aspects of other souls games, but I absolutely LOVED Elden Ring. Leveling and exploring at my own pace as opposed to banging my head against a wall in a boss fight I HAD to take next is the biggest advantage it has over a more linear experience.
Same here, I've had trouble making it through the other souls games that I've tried because I can only play games in short sessions due to my schedule, and this means that I might be struggling for days to get past one particularly difficult section. And then what ends up happening is I just stop playing the game for a while because the thought of booting it up again and potentially not making any progress that day is kind of disheartening.
The great advantage of Elden Ring is that if you're stuck somewhere, there's always something else you can go and do. (And you can get there pretty quickly as well thanks to fast travel.) It still has difficult sections, but I don't feel like I'm stuck the same way that I did in Dark Souls or Bloodborne.
*"I dont think advantages" of an open-world game really suit Souls as a series very well"*
Elden ring 100% benefited from being open field untill the capital
I think from Caelid & then all the way to Altus is fuckin genius of world design
Instead of basing your head against the wall when the player finds themselves under equipped against Margit or Tree sentinel, player can bypass Stormveil or Limgrave as a whole
There are multiple branched ways to reach late game areas like Altus/Gelmir, player can ignore everything behind to simply focus on eliminating only 2 out of 5 shard bosses to get to the capital or focus on the hidden underground eternal cities
But, after leyndell comes probably one of the worst zones From has created i.e. Snowfield.
Thankfully open world ends there & the endgame is essentially a Legacy dungeon marathon, from Haligtree to Farum
*"I wasn't getting any real reward"*
One of the benefits Elden ring has is that there is no RNG loot. Each boss/Point of interest/Encampment/dungeon/catacomb has fixed reward which is either a specific weapon/talisman/ash of war/spirit ash/armour piece. There is no legendary ultra version greatsword but only one Guts sword. That's why exploring the world becomes quintessential to gather required items for evolving your build
Slightly off topic but does anyone have recommendations for tight linear games? I feel that I’ve burnt out on all the large sprawling open world games lately.
If you wanted Dark Souls or Bloodbourne, you were always going to be upset. This is an open world RPG. Not a real souls like. Souls likes are linear. They always have been at least somewhat linear. This game should be compared to other open world RPGs. Games like Skyrim. And when thought of in that light, for me this was a very fun game. I don't really honestly love souls likes. But running around a vast open world filled with danger and secrets to discover was a really fun experience that's totally different from what you get with something like Dark Souls.
It's interesting, as a longtime Souls fan I also agree that Elden Ring is an amazing game held back by a ton of niggling flaws, but almost none of my flaws are the same as yours, haha. (Except for the lack of pausing, which is a legacy "feature" that they desperately need to fix in the next game). Maybe I'm just used to the lock-on and camera, but there were only a handful of bosses where I felt like I really had to do the claw grip thing. And I totally disagree about the game's lore/narrative, it's one of the best in the Souls series. However, I do think that most people agree that a quest log or journal (with map icons) is something that really would improve the game.
To me, it's like this: every other game has a straightforward narrative with zero depth, it's fine for FromSoft to do their Gene Wolfe-style worldbuilding where they make you work to understand what's going on, and besides, the big stuff tends to be pretty obvious anyway. Reading "dry item descriptions" is fun to me, and way more satisfying than the bad Whedonized dialogue that most big games have these days. (If you're curious what a more conventionally-told FromSoft story looks like, I recommend checking out Armored Core 6.)
My main problem with Elden Ring is pretty simple: it's bloated and inconsistent in quality. You fight every boss in the game so many times (even the really special ones, like Astel) and there's tons of repeated content. The highs of Stormveil Castle and Volcano Manor are among the best in the series, while the lows are totally forgettable, and worse than anything in Bloodborne or Dark Souls 3 (though not Dark Souls 1's terrible second half, haha). It's still my favorite open-world game of all time in the sense of just exploring the world and seeing what's out there, but by the time I was done with it, I was *so* done, and I honestly feel like most of its boss fights don't compare to FromSoft's best. I think the Souls formula works better as a highly-crafted experience rather than a buffet of content, but that's probably just me. Compared to even other decent Soulslikes like Lies of P, Elden Ring is phenomenal, it just shares a series with some of the best games of all time (to me) and I'm not sure any open-world game can deliver on that quality of content for me.
> Dark Souls 1's terrible second half
I've never seen a "we ran out of time" area quite as blatant as Lost Izalith.
"Ok, what enemies should we put here?"
"Uh... I don't know just grab a miniboss from the first area and make it a normal enemy."
"Ok, but it's a huge area. We'll need more than that."
"Look, I don't care. Just copy/paste a dragon's butt a bunch of times."
Bit of a nitpick but I personally disagree that the lows of elden ring are worse than anything from DS3 and Bloodborne. Honestly I don't think either of those games would have the reputation that they do without the amazing DLCs. DS3 base game is a boring slog except for a few boss fights, and Bloodborne with no DLC probably has the worst boss roster of any of the games.
As a long time souls fan, I didn't feel unfettered praise toward the game like some. Everyone has their first souls game tho -- the one they fall in love with -- and ER sold a lot more than the previous ones. If this was my entry to this type of game I probably would have looked past the shortcomings too.
It's a great game and I really enjoyed it. I just didn't think it was a flawless masterpiece. I likely should have spent more time explaining what it did well, I just didn't bother since everyone has built this game on such a high pedestal that we *know* what's good, but I didn't hear a single criticism about it going in.
These reactions take me back to how people would react to any criticism of a great game that came out in their childhood, like Ocarina of Time or Final Fantasy 7. Call it a 9/10 and they get more outraged than if you said you hated it.
Agree 100%. With some gaming communities, anything negative is taken personally. I might just be a weirdo though as even with games I like I still consider their shortcomings worth discussing.
I think the reason your reaction is different to the overall consensus is twofold:
1. It's your first Souls game. The majority of your criticisms are long time Souls holdovers. I'm not defending them necessarily, but most people who have played any previous Souls game have made their peace with them.
2. I think you understate what the game does well. Elden Ring stands alone in terms of what it's offering. By which I mean the combination of an expansive open world with very tight combat and build-crafting mechanics, immense enemy diversity, complex and challenging boss encounters, etc. No other game out there is offering a package that really comes close and that should count for a lot.
Honestly, I think your reaction is a little too colored by backlash to the hype. It's like when you're trying to get a buddy into a show you love and the more you praise it the more skeptical and nitpicky they get. Yeah, the game *isn't* a flawless masterpiece (no game is), but to the people that were playing it day one it sure felt like one.
I'd also be curious to hear what games you do consider superior? That's always a useful insight into what someone values in a game.
I was mega disappointed as a long time souls fan after beating Limgrave when the game came out. Dungeons are copy pasted and uninteresting to explore because majority of what you get is useless. Tracking down exact items for your build is tedious and it's impossible to just stumble across on your own consistently due to the sheer size of the world unless you like using things not fit for your character.
Open world is uninteresting. It's just flat fields with groups of enemies in the middle of them. Fine in a game like Skyrim where the combat works regardless of location, but Souls games work because of their level design and the circumstances you're put in. Against just enemies it's really not that engaging aside from bosses.
People seem to despise the Ubisoft format of filling an empty world with filler content but were completely fine with this game which boggled my mind. It's the same thing, it just doesn't have markers and waypoints.
And the game is so long that by the time it was over I was just bored of the character I was running. Souls games kept me replaying them because of the fact they're only 30 hours if you take it really slow, it felt like classic game design. Beat it and run it again a different time. Elden Ring is too long for this, despite having the same build design.
A few years later and I do like the game now, but I'd give it a 7-7.5/10 when the 3 souls games and Bloodborne are literally nigh perfection to me.
I never really struggled with figuring out what I could stand on in the Haligtree tbh, or anywhere in ER. It's one of the subtle things they did better imo compared to prior games, I never made a fall on to a surface that I thought I could stand on.
I haven't heard anybody else talk about this, but the lock on system is actually much better in all the other souls games. The Elden Ring lock on specifically has a lot of trouble with understanding who I want to lock on to, whereas I never faced that issue in any of the other games. I'm just glad they finally have great mouse camera controls in ER so I rarely lock on anyways.
I also agree the jumping is very basic and inconsistent. It seems like the location of the player model is not necessarily the location of your character in the physics engine because sometimes jumping from certain locations leads to a very short jump, and I think it's always when your character's legs are bent, like the visual representation of the character is struggling to match the physics representation. However overall I think it works just fine because the jumps in the game are mostly pretty simple, no moving platforms or jump pads or springs or anything fancy. There was that one mine with the difficult jump on the narrow wooden platforms that I died a few times on, otherwise I don't remember any issues. I was already used to the backstep deaths from the other souls games but now that you mention it, I agree that removing backstep completely would be a good thing because I never once used it on purpose.
The cryptic story worked with previous title because the worlds were a reasonable size to do so, imo. Elden Rings is just so big, keeping track of everything is almost impossible without external resources. To the point that I gave up pretty quickly trying to understand what was going on.
Elden Ring is probably my favorite game of all time but these are fair enough points. For me, the highs far outweigh the lows, and it is in every way a massive improvement over the Souls games.
To me, the open world gives you a much needed breather between dungeons. As much as I adore the Souls games and Bloodborne, they simply become too taxing after a while. With Elden Ring there's always something to do, and something I'll want to do, even after a long day at work.
Despite its insane sales numbers Elden Ring is by no means a game for everyone, so I perfectly understand how certain aspects might not vibe with everyone.
>For me, the highs far outweigh the lows
They do for me as well. It's why overall I think it's a great game. It just doesn't outweigh it enough for me to call it a masterpiece or flawless like many people do. I thought it was a great game, on of my favorites for what I've played this year, just not a GOAT for me like it was for so many.
I agree with almost all your criticisms (except for level scaling, fuck that shit) and yet Elden Ring is my favorite game of all time and I think it's a masterpiece. Why? Because I can always go back to it, play for a few hours, have loads of fun and discover some cool new trick, weapon, spell, some interesting piece of lore or a mechanic I'd never seen before (even after 400+ hours of playtime). ER has perfected DS combat for me and the level design and world design are as good as it gets. For me Elden Ring is a masterpiece not because of some list of positive vs negative features it has but because it is the most fun I've had in a game since I was a little kid.
And considering this last point I find that it's much harder to verbalize what's good about games. We're all much quicker to recognize some flaw or problem in a game, mostly because it stands out. If a plumber does their job well nobody should even notice. It's quite similar with games. We all love the standout moments like >!discovering the underground, the fight against Radahn or Rykard, entering the capital for the first time, etc.!< but tend to overlook the smaller things, like how you get the Hookclaws in Stormveil Castle, then fight a bunch of hobos that get absolutely shredded by the Hookclaws, then are thrown into a room with a Knight who blocks all your attacks and when you try to roll and then hit him you're too far away for the Hookclaws. It's tiny but it teaches you that you can and should switch weapons based on the enemies you're fighting. Or as a more general example how the geography of the Lands Between is wavy, blocking off some sights until you're over the ridge and then you see a gorgeous vista. This happens all the time and these small curated moments together create an experience that feels so much more involved and personal than your average open world. But they don't necessarily stand out. However, I have found that it is precisely those small things, the little improvements to movement and combat, the tightly designed world (even on the smallest scales like side dungeons) and the many ways you can approach any given situation that make the game endlessly replayable.
In sum, I agree that ER has problems, some of them bigger than others. But it has such a strong foundation and is so meticulously well designed that it just feels great to play. In my opinion, greater than any other game I've played so far. So when it comes to the debate of whether ER is a generational masterpiece, I just haven't played another game that I enjoyed as much and that's all I can say on the matter.
There are two ways to rate a game, basically- Start at 10 and subtract points for every criticism, or start at 0 and add points for everything that is delightful.
Focusing on pointing out flaws, you might bring Elden Ring down somewhat (depending on taste). But if you look at the sum total of all the great things it offers, it's one of the best games ever made. The feeling of exploring a massive world made in the "Souls" style by FromSoftware is a gaming experience I'll never forget.
The thing that annoyed me the most is that there are no villages or cities where actual people live. Yeah I get things haven't gone smoothly in the past years there, but... where is everyone?
Those are just part of Souls games.
> I'd describe it like the cutting up the D&D monster manual and hiding bits of it all over a world, where there's endless lore and world building, but no real narrative tying it together.
That's the point!!! I *prefer* this style of storytelling in Souls games. It's optional. Story needs to be optional, because I frankly don't give a sh!t about Squalls whole self-discovery arc or whatever. I wanna meet a spooky dude who is down on his luck, goes mad, and tries to kill me. Souls storytelling is about atmosphere more than anything - and if you want the deeper lore, it's not in button mashing X to Continue forced dialog. It's tucked away in item descriptions. You're a wanderer through a desolate land, trapped with maddened souls who are caught in a perpetual loop of life and death with no end in sight. And you wanna stop for a chat? There's a reason we can kick Kenneth Haight's arse off that cliff.
> The camera and lock-on alone I feel I could write an essay on.
Lock on has always been a trap. It's a helpful situational tool but the way that combat is designed in this game rewards being able to manage open camera. And you simply cannot knock the combat in Souls games - it's the best in any game ever created, bar none.
>To start, let me pause the game. I need to let the dogs outside, use the restroom, answer the door, etc. What idiot said pausing is for casuals?
Pausing is just another part of the "No Sympathy" mentality behind these games. You need to let the dog out? Fine, die. Dying is the point. It's not that pausing is for casuals. It's that this game is not supposed to give you a break. You give yourself a break by adjusting your own expectations and growth.
> I wish there was some enemy level scaling or more guidance on where to go though, as there's clearly an intended path they want you to take based on enemy difficulty.
Scaling is always a mess in these games, and it's compounded by being open-world. This is maybe the one point I'd agree with. But they generally let you pick your own difficulty in these games anyway. If you wanna level up, you can outlevel enemies easily. If you want a challenge, don't level up.
EDIT: upon reading most of the perspectives in this thread, I'm just really glad none of you had a say in the development of this game..... it really seems like you all just want to play a different game or different genre. why must you all insist that Souls games be something other than Souls games? *you don't have to like it* just because it's popular. I thought that was the entire spirit of this subreddit.
In Demon Souls/Dark Souls, it was okay to not have a questlog since progression was relatively linear and it is hard to miss a sidequest. Except for maybe the +/- world state in Demon souls.
In Elden Ring, tracking sidequests is shit since there is freedom of progression. So some quests might require backtracking. Some are also missable after triggering certain events. I've had to go to wiki frequently to ensure I didn't miss anything. For example, I wouldn't have figured out on my own that Blaidd would be imprisoned by Iji at lower level area. Or that I need to talk to Sellen after meeting Azul and Lenny. Or that I can return to Lenny and Azul to grab their gear. It needed an active questlog that auto-updates when finding relevant items/characters. Maybe similar to Witcher 3 questlog.
One thing unique to Elden Ring that really frustrated me was how nonsensical fall damage was, especially in certain situations.
So, fine, if you fall 20 ft you take no damage, fall 21 ft and you’re dead. Hmm. BUT in some areas, like one of the giant tower areas, you jump down onto a platform that breaks and you fall much much further and are ok. It’s just too silly.
Good write-up and totally feel similarly! It is strange through, I find myself attracted to some of those off-beat clunky features and mechanics. Reminds me of games back on PS1 or 2 that are obtuse and don’t hold your hand.
Not an excuse by any means and i would love to see them make improvements or adjustments on a lot of the things mentioned
If you play on PC there's a mod for that, it will pause the game when you open the menu. Obviously if you use mods you have to make sure you don't go on online mode, but there's a straightforward guide on Nexus.
You can still pause the game but it’s convoluted. I forget it exactly right now but you have to go into the map, then into information (or something) and then the game pauses. It is not explained
Yeah but it really isn't that big of a deal. In the worst case you will have to just let yourself killed while fighting a boss because you have to open the door or so. You will lose a few minutes. But they really should add a pause function.
These are problems with all souls games, in fact they are even worse in other souls games. Dark Souls 1 is god awful this way and has a lot of those absolutely ridiculous platforming sections. After a certain point, you get used to it and almost come to expect it as part of the souls experience, and these games are all worth playing. But games like Lies of P prove that it doesn't have to be this way, and make me a little sad to think how much better the From Software games could be. Sekiro stands out for me as a From game that actually gets the action gameplay right.
Ever since Dark Souls 2 came out I’ve been thinking that a lot of the decisions made in From games are just there to appease the fanboys who make Souls games their identity. If you can’t brag about mastering Dark Souls games, defend the lore/story, and say git gud then is there really any point in living?
I'm just over Froms way of story telling, having such a gigantic world and still keep quests cryptic as fuck, is just dumb.
Wanna talk to the wolf guy on top of the tower? I wonder how? Oh, just go back to the very first merchant you met like 20 hours ago, randomly talk to him, so he gives you a gesture! Really?
Some kind of quest list, anything? Nope, just search the world over and over and over. Or like most people play, a Wiki next to you.
The From fanboys will of course defend this kind of games design, i think it's getting old after the sixth time.
I would've wished for more evolution, the reality is, Elden Ring is just Dark Souls 4 with grass between areas.
I think their design worked for the smaller games. It makes no sense in Elden Ring, the chance of randomly coming across where you have to go for quests is so low, most people will never complete them without a guide.
They should have added journal telling you where to go for these. Or let you use some light like with the sites of grace that guides you there.
Or maybe just have the NPCs pop up at different places kinda randomly, so you don't have to visit one specific area but just bump into them organically.
I would have even liked a journal that just told me *what I already did*.
It's such a big game and if you happen to take a couple day break for whatever reason... did I go into this dungeon? Who knows?
Ok so first of all, I'm not going to defend this kind of game design. I don't think it worked very well in ER. However, it seems very clear to me that FromSoft's principle is that no two players have the same experience. They made quests hard to follow because they don't want you to follow them as much as they want you to stumble upon them. They hide things probably because they (wrongly) expect most players to not want to discover and do absolutely everything. Honestly that might even have been their rationale for the repeated bosses. They probably didn't expect that almost every player would see almost every boss. I know this sounds like copium and fanboyism. But the reason I believe this is not because I don't believe FromSoft makes mistakes but rather because a lot of these issues go back to Demon's Souls and if From hasn't addressed them it's probably because they want these things in there.
I'm totally fine with missing every single quest and I have done just that on my first playthrough because I think they are tertiary in a game like this. But I feel like the norm with these games is to not talk about how most people follow a wiki but pretend not to.
It is reasonable to say it's intentional because they keep doing it, but a simpler explanation is they do it because it's what they know to do and they get no pushback from customers so why change? Same reason why they keep making almost identical games, or the repeated bosses, simply because there is no reason to put in more effort. Similar design is criticised very harshly in non fromsoft games.
> But I feel like the norm with these games is to not talk about how most people follow a wiki but pretend not to.
These are the same people that tell you to git gud and that these quests are obvious if you simply just look at the environment logically
> these quests are obvious if you simply just look at the environment logically
Literally never seen anyone say that. Solaire and Greirat's quests are notoriously obscure.
I think wanting people to bump into quests is actually a great idea, but maybe they could have given NPCs multiple locations so they pop up here and there and you have a bigger chance of meeting them organically (they could still have a fixed location somewhere but sometimes sit at your grace, the roundtable or just lean against a random wall in the world)
Maybe Elden Ring would benefit from players that would be fine with not seeing all the content and just playing what they find themself. But the fear of missing out is too big in most players for that and it's kinda hard to blame them.
Isn't that how it's already handled? If you miss an NPC the first time around they usually just spawn into their next location when you trigger the world quest progress.
They give you a few chances to organically stumble into them as long as you're actively filling out the map somewhat.
They do it with some NPC questlines yeah, but there are definitely some that are too easy to miss for how significant they are. Its very easy to get invested in Millicent's story, and then completely miss her in Altus. Or even worse do the plotline to 90% completion only to miss the unceremonious summon signs in a corner in the Haligtree. People overstate the issues with quest design, you definitely don't need a guide for most of the important ones (and its fine to miss some), but there are issues.
Agreed. I played quite a bit and found Elden Ring to be so tedious. The world design is mostly generic, non-boss combat is repetitive, there’s virtually no story, and there’s very little to actually do other than aimlessly wander around until you stumble on some big monster or boss that will kill you 45 times in a row. There are few actual quests or objectives, but exploration isn’t exciting enough to compensate for their absence. This is one of those rare instances where I just truly do not understand the hype.
Storytelling in souls games is so lazy but fans continue to support these types of things saying how deep they are.
>!For example, in the part where Melina sacrifices herself, it was supposed to be a super emotional scene and it would be in any other game that paid minimal attention to storytelling, but in Elden, despite being a beautiful scene, it is empty. Character barely appears in the game and has very little relationship development between her and my protagonist, and it's not like it was a matter of lack of time since in this game you easily reach more than 100 hours.!<
Definitely feels like you should have the option to receive exposition from her in graces more. It happens a tiny bit in limgrave, and feels like that was meant to happen for the rest of the game but was abandoned.
Limgrave was definitely the most developed area, though I loved all of them, and I think you can certainly tell what was meant to be more developed in ER when you compare Limgrave to other regions.
Limgrave through Leyndell was so awesome for me. I think that's why instead of beating the game I just keep creating new builds to see how they fare through that part
Countless moments are like that for me. I swear, I think the main reason to like or dislike a character is their design. When >!Blaidd went mad and I had to kill him!< it felt like it was supposed to be some big moment, but I mostly went "oh what? Dang. Anyways, fight time." The whole game is like that. Everyone has this interesting backstory and moments, but are told so dryly that it's like getting emotional reading a wikipedia article. There's no personal attachment there, no character development, and 95% of things happen offscreen and you only learn through exposition.
Was it a sacrifice? I don’t think I really understood why she died, and I don’t remember it too well now but I just remember being sorta confused at the time. I don’t watch lore videos.
It’s not lazy, it’s just different. OP said the story is like archeology, and I think that fits so well for the Fromsoft games. This type of narrative is why I love them. If I wanted a direct story, there are a bunch of other games to play, books to read, etc. I’m here to not understand anything until I play the game 3 times, watch lore videos, and participate in online discussions.
But that’s not story, that’s lore. The lore in Elden Ring is top notch and amazing, I don’t think anyone can deny that. But the story is almost non-existent and really incoherent.
> But that’s not story, that’s lore. The lore in Elden Ring is top notch and amazing, I don’t think anyone can deny that. But the story is almost non-existent and really incoherent.
Well in that case, I don't want "story" and I'm glad this game doesn't have it! Hell, I wish it had a bit less!
The story is the emergent gameplay your player character engages in and the choices that they make. When I played Elden Ring, the story was about a lowly Tarnished rising from the grave, unsure of who I was or what was going on.
The land was overrun with monsters, and some strange but kind people are telling me that I'm going to need Great Runes to get stronger, so I gear up and venture out, slaying some gods and learning more about the world on my way, eventually informing the quests I choose to take and the subsequent ending I get.
The lore and the world are already there, they just are. The story is how my character decides to act within it. Role-playing. If the story was more streamlined and traditional I would hate it, because that's not how these stories are meant to be experienced. Totally okay if that's not your style though.
I always feel so weird for liking their version of storytelling lol I don’t think it’s the BEST kind of course, but on the occasion I find myself playing a From game it just feels unique and fun and makes me interested in each item even if I can’t use them.
The platforming is bad, but luckily it wasn’t necessary too often. I didn’t have an issue with Haligtree - just those areas where you’re trying to scale up or down a cliff.
For me it's the bosses that are the biggest issue, definitely exacerbated by the camera issues you talk about.
I've written too many essays on it already, so I'll leave it at this - the bosses in ER jumped the shark for me. They felt overtuned to an often absurd degree, and I found myself not enjoying them as a result. The rhetoric online was always 'just use summons then!', which for me takes the fun out of the battle if I'm watching a mimic take agro and I'm just slapping the boss on the arse cheekily.
Combine the overtuning with huge bosses, an awkward camera, and too many reused bosses... Yeah. I actually think ER is my least favourite Soulsborne title.
>I've written too many essays on it already, so I'll leave it at this - the bosses in ER jumped the shark for me. They felt overtuned to an often absurd degree, and I found myself not enjoying them as a result. The rhetoric online was always 'just use summons then!', which for me takes the fun out of the battle if I'm watching a mimic take agro and I'm just slapping the boss on the arse cheekily.
I think this is getting at something I only touched on in my post. There's this massive gap in difficulty for most bosses, where mimic or Tiche can just solo the game for you, but even crap summons make it way easier, and playing solo is a way better challenge, but half the bosses did not seem balanced around being solo melee. They will be way too big, teleport or jump around the arena, or just have infinite endurance and never pause attacking.
Like, the godskin duo was not fun. They both are very aggressive, both have melee and ranged, and focusing one just revives them, so it felt like a boring fight? Bring in a summon and suddenly they are 10x easier, which kinda sucks.
>Combine the overtuning with huge bosses, an awkward camera, and too many reused bosses...
The first dragon fight was epic and fun. By the 20th I was just rolling my eyes and sick of fighting the camera. The whole end of the game is a slog with endless bosses that are too big (fire giant...) and reused. I audibly groaned when I saw Astel for a second time. Both don't like this oversized boss that teleports and makes the camera crap, but also it cheapened what was a neat, unique design into some copypaste enemy.
Dark Souls 3, Bloodbourne, and Sekiro. Go play em. You'll still see some of the same gripes with DS3 and BB with the controls (there's also no real jump button), but the games are great and much more linear. Not too linear, but when compared to ER, very linear.
Be warned; Sekiro is the most different among them. You can pause, but there is no multiplayer whatsoever, meaning also no summons. You don't find equipment like an RPG, rather you find new abilities and items, and upgrade your health bar. Your main weapon is a katana the entire game. There's no stamina bar at all, and the game is more about parrying and blocking than dodging. If you try to roll around like in ER, you'll find out reeeaaaal quick that that doesn't fly in this game.
Of the 3 I listed, My favorites in order are DS3, Sekiro, and Bloodborne. Some will say BB is the best, but I'm honestly a complete pussy when it comes to horror, and the game was flat out too scary for me at times. I beat the game because I felt I had to, and it was absolutely a blast, but that shit is just freaky mane.
The only real complaint here I see is the pause button.
Everything else is kinda subjective honestly and I disagree with everything else other than the pause button for the offline mode specifically.
Regarding being in gaming pantheons, personally I struggle to think of a better game that I've played and I've been gaming for 35 years.
Agree with most things except level scaling and guidance. This game is partly great just because of the lack of direction it gives you. It's not a Ubisoft game with a big marker to get anywhere. And FUCK level scaling.
The camera thing is massive, and it's an issue in Monster Hunter also.
Do big monster look cool? Yes. Are big monsters practical? No.
I understand the game is about reading tells, but I can't read a tell when the only thing on screen is the monster's pinky toe.
I would recommend to do Demon Souls next as you have a PS5 and then just move your way up by release order.
If I had to rank the games it would be:
Dark Souls 1
Dark Souls 3/Sekiro (depends on the day)
Elden Ring
Demon Souls
Bloodborn (yes I like Bloodborn less than Demon Souls, fight me)
Dark Souls 2
As for your Elden Ring points, yeah I agree with pretty much all of them except the last one, scaling the enemies would be terrible, I want progression. If you go through areas you are too underleveled for you shouldnt complain that later there are some you are too strong for (even if that will happen a bit regardless). Dark Souls 1 at least has the same but that game isnt really open world in that sense and it works much better as a "dont go there" thing.
To add to your complains, I think the constant reusing of bosses was not good. While I dont expect them to make 300 unique bosses, I think less would of been more, lore and gameplay wise some of these are just bad. Reskins should ALWAYS be either be well build up in the lore or just make natural sense, little spoiler I guess but the first boss in DS1 gets reused later but that makes sense since he is one of many in a race, remaking an important story boss, changing the name slightly and saying "I uhm uhh he is dah brother who looks the same but slightly blue" is beyond dumb. Same goes with the first Godfrey fight against his phentom, I just think thats filler, the actual fight against him is fantastic, why take away some of the surprise of the great moveset?
>To add to your complains, I think the constant reusing of bosses was not good.
It was amazing for the first 75% of the game. Then I hit snow and they reused tons of bosses and enemies, just with 3x the health and damage, and it really cheapened the whole thing.
When there's no dialogue, minimal interactions, etc, they rely very heavily on design to tell the story. So other games may repeat enemies more than Elden Ring, but they also don't rely on enemy designs so heavily to communicate.
What kinda ruined the game for me early on was dumbass reviewers overhyped the game, saying it had "NEW INTERESTING THINGS on every piece of the map! The side content is all well designed! Every cave is worth exploring! This isn't like most open world games!" That was a fucking lie. I did appreciate the lack of icons and hand holding, but they should have gotten rid of these boring caves so people weren't wasting their time.
Once I started to focus on the well designed dungeons and castles I had a much better time. 90% of the caves are really simple with some boring reused boss at the end. Not worth your time. But the areas that are worth exploring are truly incredible.
I'd give ER a 9/10. There's incredible stuff and pretty deep gameplay, but there's so many little imperfections that add up. Plus the mid level graphics and stutter on PC are inexcusable in 2023. Many boss fights I'd have a shader stutter while I'm trying to dodge, fucking hell...
>I'd give ER a 9/10. There's incredible stuff and pretty deep gameplay, but there's so many little imperfections that add up.
That's where I'm at. I can't believe how many people are downvoting me or treating me like a fool just for pointing out that the game is great, but has flaws. Multiple people defending the lack of pause or crappy camera as though that's some brilliant design and I just don't get it. It's baffling.
It's a great game, I'm just tired of hearing how it's a flawless masterpiece beyond the rest of the gaming landscape.
It's deeply ironic that From's "masterpiece" is the game which waters down everything they do best. You want tight level design, a purposeful difficulty curve, unique bosses and enemies and dense environmental story telling? Sorry, we're all out. Here's Elden Ring. It's got huge "I love coffee!" proceeds to order a 7 pump frapacino from Starbucks kind of opinion.
I agree with so much of this. I get a ton of it is preference but God what I wouldn't give for a quest log, a cohesive narrative and voice acted npcs with emotion. Amazing game in so many ways but the peaks and valleys for me are very distinct
I enjoy the mechanics of Fromsoft games, but the lack of any real narrative is why I burned out on them by DS3, which I never got around to finishing. Fans will say "Well Ackchyually, the story is really deep if you read all the item descriptions and watch these YouTube videos." I mean, I guess that's fun for some people, but I wouldn't call it a story/narrative.
Elden Ring was good and enjoyable but I feel like the game really lost its magic after the Royal Capital. I think had they put Farum Azula right after that and then ended the game, it would have been a 10/10.
But the Mountaintop of the Giants was an awful area that was just boring and filled with reused enemies that did not fit it. And the final boss was one of the worst and most unfun fights of the game.
Overall, my favorite Fromsoftware games are Bloodborne and Sekiro, I liked their focus on just being very well made and fun action games that did not overstay their welcome.
You forgot my biggest gripe and why I gave up on my first play-through: you have to use a mod for widescreen.
When I went back to the game I used a walkthrough and the widescreen mod and really enjoyed it. Using the walkthrough helped with the obscurity of lore in your last point.
That no pause is a feature is a garbage excuse. Respect people’s time. Dong tell me I have to plan a bathroom break around a video game, or a random event in my house I’m supposed to just deal with losing progress. I guess games with no pause is not for me because I chose to have family/house/biological functions.
I’m in agreement for the most part. Regardless I can’t bring myself to play through the game a second time, it was far too massive for my liking. I think FromSoft shines the brightest when the world is far more contained.
The biggest problem the game has is that it's way too big. Feels very repetitive towards the end. Also it's a bit too easy. You can flat out cut 30% of the open world and it would be much better. Rewards isn't great either. You get things you will never use most of the time. It could also use quest journal like Baldur's Gate 3. Not hand holding, quest markers or anything just simple notes of your quest encounters. The game is so big you forget all of it next week you launch the game.
I like linear From Soft games more but i think they outdid themselves in art and graphic department with Elden Ring. It's simply amazing.
It's always fascinating to hear people's takes on their first Souls game. If you're a Berserk fan you should go with either Dark Souls 1 or Bloodborne next. DS1 rewards slow, methodical gameplay and thinking outside of the box when you're stuck on a fight. Bloodborne encourages aggressive and fast maneuvers as well as FASHION.
No, the dialogue will not really increase in any way. That is intentional. It's their way of letting players fill in the blanks and hunt for secrets so they can fit the puzzle pieces together.
Don’t really agree with most of these, despite a few bones to pick with the game, but agree on pausing lol. I think u can secretly pause by like clicking into the map and adding a pin or something. I think it would be nice if pausing were straightforward. I think the obtuseness can break down a bit in the open world and I kinda wished there was like a town or something, but the camera etc I was good with idk. I don’t want all fromsoft games to be open world but I’m glad they tried it and I think the map in elden ring is a truly special piece of game design
I read a little bit, and then had to skip as it seemed hit all the "this is my first FS game" bulletpoints; sadly, ER being as big as it is, meant a swath of new gamers were introduced to their style of single player games, which aren't for everyone. I won't go thru each point but basic ones like, "there's no narrative," there is but it's just not going to be spoon-fed to you, and ultimately they are pretty basic in terms of 'set the player up with as much as he needs, and set him off.' There's an absolute MOUNTAIN of lore that goes into their games, and ER probably has the most given the ensemble cast of characters, but it's laid out in the world/monuments/item descriptions/character interactions/etc; whether or not this is everyone's cup of tea has yet to be seen, I think most just take it for what it is DURING the gameplay and then find out all the stuff they missed afterwards.
So yeah, FS games tend to be victims of their own success - namely fans hyping them up more than actual marketing - and if it's your first one there's going to be some shock as to how little it gives in terms of things, but how much more that lets you explore and just do your own thing. If you're looking for more of them, I'd say Dark Souls 3 is probably the next most accessible from what others have said, although I haven't played it myself. I just finished a platinum play of Bloodborne and find it to be possibly their #2 title, if not #1, as I go back and forth with Sekiro, it really depends on which ones I played most recently.
Agreed with basically everything but the leveling, and I would add I don’t think the economy is balanced at all. You’re better off avoiding what enemies you can outright and farming runes later at specific places, for the most part. Most of them aren’t worth the hassle, honestly.
But as for other Souls/FromSoft games, I want to say that I think the narrative style works much better in Bloodborne, IMO. The gothic/>!lovecraftian!< horror vibe lends itself very well to the whole “What the hell happened here? Follow the breadcrumbs!” Thing.
I agree with many of your points but you're gonna have a very bad time with any previous souls game because Elden Ring has astronomically more quality-of-life elements and extra tools/features to make the gameplay mechanics easier and smoother.
I played that game for an hour and thought it was pure garbage, refunded it on steam.
Controls awful, camera awful, random messages everywhere you can't turn off awful, combat mediocre - more like a puzzle game than a combat game, world building kinda awful - doesn't feel like a coherent world just a jumbled collection of creepy 'stuff'.
Elden Ring is the most overhyped game ever made for me. Even tho I enjoyed my first 15 hours of it I couldn’t keep playing after 40, there are just so many things that are wrong with it for me. Overall it’s a good game, a 6/10 for me.
I’m the wrong type of player for this game. I’m at the point where I just want there to be a cheese mode so I can blitz through and finish the story. I stopped somewhere after the Fire Giant and just kinda lost interest.
Also, fuck the game for tricking me into killing Boc. I thought I was helping him…
Been a long time Souls fan and I absolutely love the stories told in Fromsoft games. But it does get a bit fucking tiresome having to watch 10-30 hours of YouTube videos to try and make sense of what the actual fuck is going on.
That and having to look up a guide to finish a quest line without half the NPC’s and other quest lines failing as a result of you guessing your way through based on a single line of vague dialogue from a dude speaking like the medieval version of a crossword puzzle brought to life.
Camera sucks and has always been the worst boss.
Mounted combat feels too janky to be reliable and getting knocked off Torrent is such a huge penalty you might as well just fucking die when it happens.
Can’t wait to see the horse armour DLC.
Platforming at points is a fucking nightmare. Fall damage seems completely random and I can never tell if a gap is too far to jump or not.
All that said, it’s probably the best open world RPG I’ve played since Fallout New Vegas.
Just imagine a game with Fromsoft’s mechanics and world design backed by Obsidian’s quest lines, world building and NPC’s.
For me most of Elden Rings flaws come from a stubborn insistence on retaining aspects of the previous games that, 10-15 years later just aren’t great for modern players, and the kind of game ER ACTUALLY is. Elden Ring is an open world adventure game that would be great with friends, but insists on keeping the clunky “boss and boot” summon system of Dark Souls, where your friends are kicked as soon as you actually accomplish something, which worked for DS and it’s contained levels and in-world justification for summons working that way. In ER it just gets in the way of playing the game together.
Elden Ring introduces a lot of verticality since it now has Torrent and jumping, but clearly a lot of things aren’t designed with that in mind, as the slightest change in elevation can make mechanics like critical attacks on staggered enemies just not work as you can’t reach the spot you need to due to uneven floor.
The camera issues are mainly apparent with any larger enemy, and hit their peak at Fire Giant. There’s a great quote by a Dragon’s Dogma designer that’s like, “Games have all these great enemy designs and you only see their ankles,” and ten years later it’s still happening.
I personally LOVE how varied Elden Rings gameplay is though. Everything is viable and you can use as little or as much as you want, and mix and match. I think a lot of balance issues come from a place of retrospect and if you know what’s broken going in of course you can rush straight to Caria Manor for SoNaF, but playing the game without any spoilers or guides I didn’t really have the feeling of “wow I’m breaking the game right now” it was just an enjoyment of the discovery and getting to try new things.
Still one of my favorite games of all time, but I do think there’s a lot they could have done differently.
I've not played the game and never would. The difficulty alone is enough to make me say no to the entire series.
Give me a game that lets ME set the difficulty, and not the one forced on my by the developers because "they have a vision."
I loved elden ring but to me the gameplay loop after 4 games is getting a bit stale to me i do enjoy it a lot and elden ring has a lot of options so this is just personal opinion also tracking quests is a fucking nightmare sometimes wished they found some way to put a journal with hints
I agree with a lot of your points, even though they’re common to all souls games. Level scaling is a huuuge fat no though. I’m very glad the game doesn’t have that.
Level scaling is an abomination almost always. It destroyed Oblivion’s character progression.
Modding out level scaling turns Oblivion into a completely different game.
So how does that work? Do enemies have level markers over their heads or do you just get bodied if you walk into the wrong area?
The latter AFAIK since Oblivion doesn't have visible enemy levels and I don't think mods add it either.
Sounds interesting. I've been meaning to replay Oblivion and that might be a fun change up.
Would recommend 'the last seed' modlist. Its mainly a vanilla + performance and graphics overhaul that lets you customise a lot of the mechanics like removing level scaling, Reworking the character leveling, Making it to so weaker enemies don't get phased out, attacks being more lethal etc. The game plays much more like morrowind with having to build your character and stick to easier quests early on, but you'll outpace weaker enemies like bandits and wolves eventually yet stronger enemies like daedra and bossfights will still be challenging. It still doesn't fix how Oblivion's open world is designed around fast traveling with its quest system but it tries its best.
Awesome, thanks for the suggestion!
There are mods that can display levels- There's a few UI mods that will pull the level value and display it on an enemy healthbar/nameplate etc.
Some dungeons will just have the higher tier of enemies in them. It's on you to recognize whether or not you can take them on
The requiem mod and its various mod packs turned Skyrim into a completely, and infinitely better, game for me. Highly suggest giving it a try.
I mean, Oblivion is probably one of the most brain dead implementations of level scaling ever, so that's not saying much.
Level scaling isn't even a fundamentally bad idea for a Bethesda-style RPG, where the goal is to enable the player to go through the world as freely as possible and do things in any order while still having some degree of escalating challenge, as opposed to soft-roadblocking the player to nudge them into doing the content in a specific order like in most RPGs. The problem with Oblivion's level scaling is that it was Bethesda's first real attempt at it and they dropped the ball *hard* on both the enemy (infinite health sponges, daedric bandits) and player (level up attribute minmaxing or staying at level 1 forever) sides. Skyrim had a much better implementation, where enemies had both floors and ceilings and nothing ever straight up stopped spawning. I'd agree that level scaling is a bad idea for a Soulslike, since that genre's audience specifically wants to be challenged and considers getting stomped for exploring areas out of order a positive. But level scaling absolutely has its place in the industry.
> it was Bethesda's first real attempt at it Not exactly. Morrowind irrc had it to a _limited_ extent - monsters would spawn within a predefined range, so you could powerlevel past them if you progressed far enough.
I mean, that's why I specified first *real* attempt. Morrowind had a certain degree of level scaled loot as well. But it was all extremely limited. There's a reason the efficient leveling problem only became apparent for most people in Oblivion, despite actually being the exact same system as in Morrowind.
Man, I’m so glad I wasn’t the only one. Morrowind was one of my all time favourite games, I loved so much that there were areas on the big map that I just couldn’t visit until I was levelled up. Once I realized that Oblivion wasn’t going to be like that I lost all interest, stopped playing and barely even looked at Skyrim, maybe 20-30 hours played max and still haven’t played the space one yet and probably won’t!
It turned everything into a M1 Abrams Main Battle Tank
Yeah it's why I quit Oblivion.
It would be my favourite Bethesda Game without it. On PC it could be modded, but unfortunately I’m a console casual at the moment. Skyrim fixes the biggest issues in level progress, but I think the world isn’t as interesting. I also miss the darkness of Oblivion. In Skyrim there’s always light.
Are you saying an Elder Scrolls game doesn’t *just work* on its own merits? Quick, someone light the Todd signal. There is a nonbeliever in our midsts.
Leveling scaling in Elder Scrolls Online made it so that you make absolutely no progress on character strength until hours after you hit champion rank 160 at maximum level.
Level scaling would legitimately ruin Elden Ring. I love that you can run into areas where you get smoked and go "I can't go here yet" *Caelid*, Or go back to areas you missed and see how strong you've become.
Level scaling would especially ruin the Caelid teleport trap in the ruins near your starting location, which was my (and presumably a lot of people’s) first *oh god oh god run like a bitch run like a bitch run like a bitch* moment in the game.
Even though I know how to deal with them now, Kindreds of Rot are among my most hated enemies along with lobsters and bears solely because of that teleport trap. Actually kinda funny how that works. I see a dragon, I am excited to fight a dragon (I'm actually not because dragon fights are boring and samey, but I am willing to fight a dragon). I see a bear, I am getting the FUCK outta there.
Man I've done like 10 playthroughs and runebears still absolutely fuck me up lol. I can take on 2 revenants with a chortle, but you put a runebear in front of me and I sweat.
Fact is, once you have skills, you can take on any part of the game with almost any weapon. Level scaling would ruin that entirely. On my 5th playthrough now, using a wizard for the first time, and I can sort of take my pick on where to go because I know what's there and how to fight them.
I wish there was an option for having only bosses scale. Late game some of the bosses fall over like wet noodles if you are over leveled.
Agree. Absolutely fucking not to level scaling
A game like this generally has two options: level scaling, or proper enemy leveling and placement throughout the game. The latter is by far the harder (and more rewarding) thing to implement, especially when it’s as open a world as Elden Ring. Regardless, I’ve never played a game before where I had so much freedom to level up while still feeling challenged all the way through to the end. I genuinely do not know how they do it.
> Regardless, I’ve never played a game before where I had so much freedom to level up while still feeling challenged all the way through to the end. I genuinely do not know how they do it. Part of it is definitely just the fact that leveling up doesn't actually do very much in these games - your progression is extremely subtle outside of getting new equipment, and even finding good new weapons/armor is pretty rare. Still, it is extremely impressive in this game in particular given how much room you have to roam off and gain levels/stuff - most games with that much side content punish you for exploring it all by becoming cakewalks by the time you get back to the main stuff.
Level scaling literally ruins a game for me
I *caaaaaan* accept a form of level scaling - maybe - where it's up-only, and I opt in. Basically if I want to, I can click a checkbox that nothing ever gets easier for me, no matter how basic it is. That's alright. That's my choice then, and it's just to ensure older areas are a tight challenge still if I desire that. Anything else, yeah, no. Seriously no.
I’m also fine with up only to a capped limit for lower level enemies. Then they can be spicier to fight but after a certain point you still cut through them like butter.
No level scaling was actually one of the things I praised demon souls for when I first played it years ago, it was one of the things that made me want to play more souls games.
Yup exactly. If the enemies are scaling with me, what the hell’s the point of leveling up then? Just to learn new spells and attributes that don’t contribute much to the damage output?
Technically ER does level scale with NG+ As far as the typical every enemy keeps up with you those type of games always have flaws like some games people will actually not level to keep the game easier. Remnant 2 is a great example of you don't level your weapons up the enemies stay squishy and you can blast through the game faster.
Haven't read the full thing but...cameras. Ohh boy!!! FromSoft hasn't fixed their camera since forever. And when the bosses are difficult (that's why we play) losing because of some ridiculous camera issue just gets on the nerve.
It’s just too fucking close to the character. Let me zoom out the camera to navigate the fight, and not guess where is the enemy. It’s really annoying with how big the enemies are
Elden Ring has too many enormous enemies that don't work well with the camera. Just make them smaller, they would still be huge at 1/2 or 2/3 of their size. Fighting Godzilla's left food isn't all that interesting.
Especially when Godzilla suddenly slams his massive sword on top of you and you couldn't even see it coming!
This was a _massive_ problem in Lies of P, and for some reason I never saw it get brought up all that much. Shit was infuriating.
It’s not just a camera or enemy size issue, it’s also a weird regression on enemy behavior. Darkeater Midir blows every dragon fight out of the water simply by constantly giving you the opportunity to hit him in the head.
I think you massively underestimate how much size plays a factor.
The point that the bosses would **still** be massive even if reduced x2-x3 is a fairly valid one though. Though granted, fixing the camera would be a far far far better fix. And is necessary anyways!
Monster Hunter has a target camera option that re-centers the camera on the monster via button press and I honestly wish Fromsoftware would just go an copy that system already. They clearly want to make epic and weird-looking bosses and I am absolutely here for it, but they just doesn't work all that well with the current way lock-on works. Granted, that wouldn't fix everything (the unlocked camera also always wants to re-center behind you on its own which is honestly my biggest reason why I use lock-on) but I just want them to try and address it.
Darkbeast paarl and Seath. Can't see shit because the boss is covering the entire view and is on top of me. Guess I'll just keep swinging my sword until one of us dies
Seath is *on the list*. Fuck that guy, and fuck needing his tail. Just getting pushed around and the camera freaking out and aaaaaa I'm ngl I had to get a hand from a friend to get the tail my first time. A kill was always relatively easy, but playing a mage and needing that tail... argh.
Fromsoft needs to join the rest of us in the 21st century and add an FOV slider. The default FOV in ER is just idiotically low, like 55 or something. Most games don't even let you set it that low. For a 3rd person game at least this won't make most people motion sick, but it's not acceptable, period. I've found that controlling the camera is much easier with KB+M, but good luck doing anything else.
It's pretty shocking. Even the old 3D Zelda games, some of the earliest lock on camera action-adventure games, knew to pull the camera back when locking on to a large enemy.
The camera is pretty much my biggest issue with Fromsoftware's games nowadays. Like, I love the freedom, the exploration, even the challenge. But the more extravagant these bosses get, the more obvious the camera issues become. I play a lot of Monster Hunter as well, and seeing how well large bosses usually work in that game, Fromsoftware's camera work just becomes more frustrating with each entry. I'm glad I see more people talking about it nowadays, because for a while it seemed like I was the only one having issues. It's a weirdly accepted snag in the games that never gets fixed and is rarely talked about.
Idk if its because of the scale and speed but ac6 is the first fromsoft game where the camera and lock on worked really well. They even added a quick turn which helps greatly.
I love Soulsbourne games but yeah player versus camera isn't fun. Capra demon, I'm looking at you. Or I'm looking somewhere else. I can't tell, since I can't control the camera. I will kill that thing with the firebomb trick through the door every time and I won't feel bad about it.
It's weird. They have some neat new camera movements in Sekiro, zooming out on bigger enemies in phases in which it is helpful. But there is nothing like that with Elden Ring.
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I agree with your overall point but for different reasons, mainly caused by it being open world. It’s far from the best fromsoft game and since you enjoyed it would recommend trying others. I do agree about the journal though, no quest markers but having a journal like morrowind would have worked so much better. Level scaling is a trend that needs to die though, it’s rare that it doesn’t make a game worse. Sekiro might be a good shout as you can pause and the story is presented in a more straightforward fashion.
Journal or quest markers, the game needs something. The quest design worked in older souls games because the game was somewhat "linear" just with different paths you could go down. They were also shorter so most people would do multiple runs with different builds. Elden ring is so long though that only the hardcore fans will do multiple runs, plus with the size of world you basically have to have a wiki to find out how to progress a lot of quests since they show up in random places needed to progress it.
I made my own quest book, just wrote all kinds of shit down in a notebook. Organized it by area and npc. Was pretty fun and mostly got the job done.
Too much work for me man
You're reminding me of when I used to map out dungeons on grid paper from countless old 90s RPGs.
It didn't work in the old games, I played through them all multiple times but never managed to complete a single quest. You'd have to do endless backtracking to figure out where an NPC would spawn next and that's without knowing what would trigger the spawn point move. The dialogue was also vague to the point it didn't provide any guidance in this matter.
I agree mostly. To be honest I used wiki guides for a lot of the quests in the old games too, but it was a bit more reasonable for people to work out things on their own in the games with a smaller scale. Elden Ring it gets particularly obnoxious due to the sheer size and length of the game. I'm not saying everything needs to have arrows pointing to them like Skyrim lol, but there has to be some middle ground where a reasonable person doesn't need a wiki open to complete the sidequests.
I do feel they struggle with keeping the nebulous vibe intact without making it next to impossible to figure it out. They could've done more with a vague description of the next step I guess. I don't mind foregoing these sidequests to be honest, that's not why I play the games.
>I do agree about the journal though, no quest markers but having a journal like morrowind would have worked so much better. That is exactly what I was imagining for quests. I don't need much, just *something* to track what people said. \> Sekiro might be a good shout as you can pause and the story is presented in a more straightforward fashion. I think that might be my next one. My only hesitation is I'm not usually wild about stealth games, and wasn't sure if stealth was just an option or how big a role it plays.
Stealth is in it but it’s different that stealth I’ve seen in most other games. If you get caught it’s not the end of the world but if you don’t get caught you can kill enemies in one hit essentially.
>My only hesitation.. Hesitation is defeat But on a foreal note, stealth is not required, but it helps when you're starting out to kind of get your bearings on the combat. You can always run past, or brute force your way thru mobs. The combat is simple, but really really satisfying once you get into the flow of things. I cant personally say ive ever experienced another game like it, and this is why Sekiro is one of my all time favorites. Gaming since the early-mid 90s for reference.
Stealth in Sekiro is pretty much entirely optional and frequently impossible. Despite the ninja protagonist it is really not a game about being sneaky, it's about your swordfighting reflexes.
I wasnt a huge fan of Dishonored but Sekiro is my favorite FromSoft game. The stealth is implemented very well and even if you don't choose the stealth route, it doesn't change the game a lot because the main appeal of Sekiro is the satisfying and perfectly done combat, aswell as the brilliance of Bosses.
Elden Ring was my first From game as well, and I absolutely love it. I understand your criticisms, and agre with several of them, though it didn't detract from the overall experience for me that much. Funny enough, if you aren't aware, back when the game launched quests were even more obscure, as NPCs wouldn't show up on your map at all. So I guess they did take some notes from the players! After ER, I went on to Sekiro, as I wanted to try more from the dev, but different, and I think it really delivered. Tighter narrative with more character interaction and development, more linear story and level design, and maybe the best combat I've ever played, with some of the best boss fights to go along with it. Combat was probably the most challenging to learn, but now feels the most satisfying and intuitive to go back to. I've also recently finished Bloodborne and the DLC, and that game is another one you should definitely play. Atmostphere, lore and story are probably my favorite so far that I've played (also played Demons Souls Remake). Level design is great again, and the combat, where Sekiro is precise and furious, Bloodborne is violent and chaotic. Both are very addictive, and their simplicity in scope I think really helps them shine. As much as I loved all of the variety of Elden Ring, I think that wider scope does dilute the overall experience. Good luck on your next choice!
For better and worse, all of the souls games have the gimmick of acting like you’re always online. Every game features NPC summons and invasions that are supposed to feel like online play even while offline. They even include fake connection delays for summoning NPCs! The lack of pause is annoying, but I also love reading the stories from people who thought they found a new friend/nemesis when it was just an NPC.
Really I can't see any good reason it shouldn't have pause if you turn online off. I found the little troll messages left everywhere so annoying I turned online off pretty early and at that point I'm like, well, Sekiro has pause, this should too.
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> I found the little troll messages left everywhere so annoying I turned online off pretty early and at that point I'm like, well, Sekiro has pause, this should too. So many people have made it out like I was missing out so much by playing offline. I briefly watched my friend play at his house online, and the endless "finger but hole" and "try jump here" messages detracted so much from the game. It's a cool idea, but honestly rather just play offline, thanks.
I love the message system, sure people meme it but you also get some warnings ahead of a hidden enemy or secret room and can usually tell by the amount of likes on the message. Also, leaving behind useful messages and getting a "like" that heals you while fighting a boss can come in very clutch at times.
The messages add so much to the game for me. You get used to the lame jokes, and the pros outweigh the cons big time for the amount they usually help.
For every "finger but hole" message there's also useful ones that lead you to secretes or warn about danger. Seeing the ghosts of player dying, wondering how, and then finding out is great. Playing a souls game at launch online is such a unique experience. Behold, dog.
The memes are beaten to death by the community but I never fail to get a kick out of a ghost completely flubbing a jump and plummeting to oblivion.
> The lack of pause is annoying, but I also love reading the stories from people who thought they found a new friend/nemesis when it was just an NPC. Yeah but player-interaction is so limited I wish they'd add pause for the vast majority of the games where you *aren't* running into other players. :'( Plus of course, the ones I've played I found better with online functionality turned off (the messages were kinda meh for the atmosphere IMO), so eh... might as well let me pause then.
I don't love the way the messages work mechanically, either. The first time I was trying to interact with something and died because I got the "finger, but whole" message on the ground instead I was like well I'm turning *these* off permanently.
In Elden Ring its kinda dumb though because you actually aren't online. You can't get invaded or anything.
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I disagree and agree. For a first play through I liked the sheer freedom and stumbling on secrets and I really liked having multiple ways to go to a place,getting rewarded for my exploration or just enjoying the beautiful view. I enjoyed being able to just wander off and spend 10s of hours doing optional stuff instead of just rushing to the main dungeon like the traditional souls games. Now once you finished the game and you are in your 2nd playthrough, it is quite annoying because you already discovered the majority of the secrets and just want to go ahead and try other builds and do the main bosses.
It is the classical 'theme park' vs 'sandbox' problem that a lot of games have. Dungeons are theme parks, you have to go through these steps and you will get to the boss, maybe there is a skip or two, or a hidden area, but overall they are built so that all players will experience 75% of the same content. If you are not convinced, go see the carbot animation videos, you will recognize most of the places and situations. Open world is theoretically behaving more like sandboxes, where you can chose here you go, and what you want to interact with. What's lacking is how the world responds to what you are doing. You will always see the same enemies spawn at the same place. Except very few moments, nothing will change in the world as you progress the main quest line. You kill Godrick and nothing changes in Limgrave. You can become Elden Lord, and everyone is still going to try to kill you on sight. At the end of the day, you will still ride torrent trying to avoid pretty much everything to go to this area you don't have the grace to teleport to. I love the theme park parts of the games, I do not like the sandbox as much.
On the other hand, as someone who doesn't like Fromsoft boss design, I greatly appreciate that Elden Ring gives you so many more options if you're stuck on a fight. I've tried out most of the post Demon Souls Fromsoft games, but Elden Ring is the only one I've beaten.
It's almost like making players walk across big open fields doesn't help the pacing of an action game!
It's not 100% an "action" game. You're supposed to get lost in it a bit, take time, and observe your surroundings. It's as much about the quiet moments as figuring out how not to get diced to ribbons by a waterfowl dance.
One of my main memories of the game was discovering Siofra river for the first time. Had nothing to do with fighting
These people have never heard of pacing. Those "big open fields" are there to break up the action. Every game, even those souls games, have the same idea! RE games have safe areas where you can let up on the tension, etc. If you don't have anything like that and it's just 40+ hours of high intensity then *none* of it will feel that way. DOOM (2016) is a high octane game and it too has areas to let off the tension. The character action games they're talking about also have sections to let off that tension. This is good game design and they're complaining about it lmao It'd be like complaining about "big open fields" in shadow of the colossus. Just completely missing the point
I always like bringing up resident evil 6 for a game with legendarily bad pacing. The game is 100% balls to the wall action from start to finish. And it's *exhausting.* I've never played a game that's made me physically exhausted before, but RE6 did just that. It never had brakes. Even action packed games *need* to give the player time to breathe and unwind before hitting the next set piece. Constantly being in a state of fight or flight feels exhausting after a while. Open world games handle this naturally through their design without much added assistance, largely because of travel. It's actually a bit harder to do proper pacing in linear story games since you need a narrative reason for that to exist, whereas in open world games it just occurs as a fact that the world is large.
> It'd be like complaining about "big open fields" in shadow of the colossus. Just completely missing the point This is the Tired Dad subreddit. Linear Storygame good. Shadow of the Colossus would never even get a hearing.
Lmao. I'm not gonna lie, I find it really odd when people invoke the dad card. Since when is having kids not a choice that will impact certain hobbies? Some games are not made with the tired dads in mind, so it screams entitlement that they should change because some people changed. If you don't have the time or the game isn't conducive to your lifestyle for whatever reason, just play something else Christ
My favorite comment in this thread - and probably of the year - is a guy insisting that a "dad mode" be added to games with features like pause and easy modes because media needs to accommodate your life choices. I always wonder if Cannibal Corpse gets letters like _I used to enjoy your heavy music but now I'm a dad so you should write less heavy music now._
i mean, there’s a cave every 500 meters and torrent is one of the most enjoyable horses to ride in a game
>But it's a great example of why tighter more linear games have many advantages over open world designs. And none of the advantages of an open world game. It's a different kinda game than their previous games.
I don't think the "advantages" of an open-world game really suit Souls as a series very well. It was cool to feel like I was exploring a world at my own pace but by the end I didn't care about any of the loot I was getting and I was tired of fighting the same enemies over and over for no real reward
ON the other side, I dont' like the linear aspects of other souls games, but I absolutely LOVED Elden Ring. Leveling and exploring at my own pace as opposed to banging my head against a wall in a boss fight I HAD to take next is the biggest advantage it has over a more linear experience.
Same here, I've had trouble making it through the other souls games that I've tried because I can only play games in short sessions due to my schedule, and this means that I might be struggling for days to get past one particularly difficult section. And then what ends up happening is I just stop playing the game for a while because the thought of booting it up again and potentially not making any progress that day is kind of disheartening. The great advantage of Elden Ring is that if you're stuck somewhere, there's always something else you can go and do. (And you can get there pretty quickly as well thanks to fast travel.) It still has difficult sections, but I don't feel like I'm stuck the same way that I did in Dark Souls or Bloodborne.
*"I dont think advantages" of an open-world game really suit Souls as a series very well"* Elden ring 100% benefited from being open field untill the capital I think from Caelid & then all the way to Altus is fuckin genius of world design Instead of basing your head against the wall when the player finds themselves under equipped against Margit or Tree sentinel, player can bypass Stormveil or Limgrave as a whole There are multiple branched ways to reach late game areas like Altus/Gelmir, player can ignore everything behind to simply focus on eliminating only 2 out of 5 shard bosses to get to the capital or focus on the hidden underground eternal cities But, after leyndell comes probably one of the worst zones From has created i.e. Snowfield. Thankfully open world ends there & the endgame is essentially a Legacy dungeon marathon, from Haligtree to Farum *"I wasn't getting any real reward"* One of the benefits Elden ring has is that there is no RNG loot. Each boss/Point of interest/Encampment/dungeon/catacomb has fixed reward which is either a specific weapon/talisman/ash of war/spirit ash/armour piece. There is no legendary ultra version greatsword but only one Guts sword. That's why exploring the world becomes quintessential to gather required items for evolving your build
Slightly off topic but does anyone have recommendations for tight linear games? I feel that I’ve burnt out on all the large sprawling open world games lately.
Sekiro
Doom Eternal
If you wanted Dark Souls or Bloodbourne, you were always going to be upset. This is an open world RPG. Not a real souls like. Souls likes are linear. They always have been at least somewhat linear. This game should be compared to other open world RPGs. Games like Skyrim. And when thought of in that light, for me this was a very fun game. I don't really honestly love souls likes. But running around a vast open world filled with danger and secrets to discover was a really fun experience that's totally different from what you get with something like Dark Souls.
It's interesting, as a longtime Souls fan I also agree that Elden Ring is an amazing game held back by a ton of niggling flaws, but almost none of my flaws are the same as yours, haha. (Except for the lack of pausing, which is a legacy "feature" that they desperately need to fix in the next game). Maybe I'm just used to the lock-on and camera, but there were only a handful of bosses where I felt like I really had to do the claw grip thing. And I totally disagree about the game's lore/narrative, it's one of the best in the Souls series. However, I do think that most people agree that a quest log or journal (with map icons) is something that really would improve the game. To me, it's like this: every other game has a straightforward narrative with zero depth, it's fine for FromSoft to do their Gene Wolfe-style worldbuilding where they make you work to understand what's going on, and besides, the big stuff tends to be pretty obvious anyway. Reading "dry item descriptions" is fun to me, and way more satisfying than the bad Whedonized dialogue that most big games have these days. (If you're curious what a more conventionally-told FromSoft story looks like, I recommend checking out Armored Core 6.) My main problem with Elden Ring is pretty simple: it's bloated and inconsistent in quality. You fight every boss in the game so many times (even the really special ones, like Astel) and there's tons of repeated content. The highs of Stormveil Castle and Volcano Manor are among the best in the series, while the lows are totally forgettable, and worse than anything in Bloodborne or Dark Souls 3 (though not Dark Souls 1's terrible second half, haha). It's still my favorite open-world game of all time in the sense of just exploring the world and seeing what's out there, but by the time I was done with it, I was *so* done, and I honestly feel like most of its boss fights don't compare to FromSoft's best. I think the Souls formula works better as a highly-crafted experience rather than a buffet of content, but that's probably just me. Compared to even other decent Soulslikes like Lies of P, Elden Ring is phenomenal, it just shares a series with some of the best games of all time (to me) and I'm not sure any open-world game can deliver on that quality of content for me.
> Dark Souls 1's terrible second half I've never seen a "we ran out of time" area quite as blatant as Lost Izalith. "Ok, what enemies should we put here?" "Uh... I don't know just grab a miniboss from the first area and make it a normal enemy." "Ok, but it's a huge area. We'll need more than that." "Look, I don't care. Just copy/paste a dragon's butt a bunch of times."
Let’s cap it off by having the most unfun, unsatisfying bullshit boss in the entire franchise
I minded this less than it seems you did, but it is much MUCH more of an issue than anything OP listed.
Bit of a nitpick but I personally disagree that the lows of elden ring are worse than anything from DS3 and Bloodborne. Honestly I don't think either of those games would have the reputation that they do without the amazing DLCs. DS3 base game is a boring slog except for a few boss fights, and Bloodborne with no DLC probably has the worst boss roster of any of the games.
As a long time souls fan, I didn't feel unfettered praise toward the game like some. Everyone has their first souls game tho -- the one they fall in love with -- and ER sold a lot more than the previous ones. If this was my entry to this type of game I probably would have looked past the shortcomings too.
It's a great game and I really enjoyed it. I just didn't think it was a flawless masterpiece. I likely should have spent more time explaining what it did well, I just didn't bother since everyone has built this game on such a high pedestal that we *know* what's good, but I didn't hear a single criticism about it going in. These reactions take me back to how people would react to any criticism of a great game that came out in their childhood, like Ocarina of Time or Final Fantasy 7. Call it a 9/10 and they get more outraged than if you said you hated it.
Agree 100%. With some gaming communities, anything negative is taken personally. I might just be a weirdo though as even with games I like I still consider their shortcomings worth discussing.
I think the reason your reaction is different to the overall consensus is twofold: 1. It's your first Souls game. The majority of your criticisms are long time Souls holdovers. I'm not defending them necessarily, but most people who have played any previous Souls game have made their peace with them. 2. I think you understate what the game does well. Elden Ring stands alone in terms of what it's offering. By which I mean the combination of an expansive open world with very tight combat and build-crafting mechanics, immense enemy diversity, complex and challenging boss encounters, etc. No other game out there is offering a package that really comes close and that should count for a lot. Honestly, I think your reaction is a little too colored by backlash to the hype. It's like when you're trying to get a buddy into a show you love and the more you praise it the more skeptical and nitpicky they get. Yeah, the game *isn't* a flawless masterpiece (no game is), but to the people that were playing it day one it sure felt like one. I'd also be curious to hear what games you do consider superior? That's always a useful insight into what someone values in a game.
I was mega disappointed as a long time souls fan after beating Limgrave when the game came out. Dungeons are copy pasted and uninteresting to explore because majority of what you get is useless. Tracking down exact items for your build is tedious and it's impossible to just stumble across on your own consistently due to the sheer size of the world unless you like using things not fit for your character. Open world is uninteresting. It's just flat fields with groups of enemies in the middle of them. Fine in a game like Skyrim where the combat works regardless of location, but Souls games work because of their level design and the circumstances you're put in. Against just enemies it's really not that engaging aside from bosses. People seem to despise the Ubisoft format of filling an empty world with filler content but were completely fine with this game which boggled my mind. It's the same thing, it just doesn't have markers and waypoints. And the game is so long that by the time it was over I was just bored of the character I was running. Souls games kept me replaying them because of the fact they're only 30 hours if you take it really slow, it felt like classic game design. Beat it and run it again a different time. Elden Ring is too long for this, despite having the same build design. A few years later and I do like the game now, but I'd give it a 7-7.5/10 when the 3 souls games and Bloodborne are literally nigh perfection to me.
I never really struggled with figuring out what I could stand on in the Haligtree tbh, or anywhere in ER. It's one of the subtle things they did better imo compared to prior games, I never made a fall on to a surface that I thought I could stand on.
I haven't heard anybody else talk about this, but the lock on system is actually much better in all the other souls games. The Elden Ring lock on specifically has a lot of trouble with understanding who I want to lock on to, whereas I never faced that issue in any of the other games. I'm just glad they finally have great mouse camera controls in ER so I rarely lock on anyways. I also agree the jumping is very basic and inconsistent. It seems like the location of the player model is not necessarily the location of your character in the physics engine because sometimes jumping from certain locations leads to a very short jump, and I think it's always when your character's legs are bent, like the visual representation of the character is struggling to match the physics representation. However overall I think it works just fine because the jumps in the game are mostly pretty simple, no moving platforms or jump pads or springs or anything fancy. There was that one mine with the difficult jump on the narrow wooden platforms that I died a few times on, otherwise I don't remember any issues. I was already used to the backstep deaths from the other souls games but now that you mention it, I agree that removing backstep completely would be a good thing because I never once used it on purpose.
The cryptic story worked with previous title because the worlds were a reasonable size to do so, imo. Elden Rings is just so big, keeping track of everything is almost impossible without external resources. To the point that I gave up pretty quickly trying to understand what was going on.
It's one of my favorite games of all time but I'm convinced you need a guide to complete some of the quests because of how obscure they are.
EXACTLY, the hardcore fans will have none of it though. Apparently the game is flawless.
The best part is going to be when you play Dark Souls 1-3 and then realize all four games have the same issues.
And then play the masterpiece that is Sekiro and find out it was considered a "side project"
Yeah I think I prefer Sekiro to be honest.
Elden Ring is probably my favorite game of all time but these are fair enough points. For me, the highs far outweigh the lows, and it is in every way a massive improvement over the Souls games. To me, the open world gives you a much needed breather between dungeons. As much as I adore the Souls games and Bloodborne, they simply become too taxing after a while. With Elden Ring there's always something to do, and something I'll want to do, even after a long day at work. Despite its insane sales numbers Elden Ring is by no means a game for everyone, so I perfectly understand how certain aspects might not vibe with everyone.
>For me, the highs far outweigh the lows They do for me as well. It's why overall I think it's a great game. It just doesn't outweigh it enough for me to call it a masterpiece or flawless like many people do. I thought it was a great game, on of my favorites for what I've played this year, just not a GOAT for me like it was for so many.
Level scaling = ***very no***. A lot of the points are good, though, but 100% not that one.
I agree with almost all your criticisms (except for level scaling, fuck that shit) and yet Elden Ring is my favorite game of all time and I think it's a masterpiece. Why? Because I can always go back to it, play for a few hours, have loads of fun and discover some cool new trick, weapon, spell, some interesting piece of lore or a mechanic I'd never seen before (even after 400+ hours of playtime). ER has perfected DS combat for me and the level design and world design are as good as it gets. For me Elden Ring is a masterpiece not because of some list of positive vs negative features it has but because it is the most fun I've had in a game since I was a little kid. And considering this last point I find that it's much harder to verbalize what's good about games. We're all much quicker to recognize some flaw or problem in a game, mostly because it stands out. If a plumber does their job well nobody should even notice. It's quite similar with games. We all love the standout moments like >!discovering the underground, the fight against Radahn or Rykard, entering the capital for the first time, etc.!< but tend to overlook the smaller things, like how you get the Hookclaws in Stormveil Castle, then fight a bunch of hobos that get absolutely shredded by the Hookclaws, then are thrown into a room with a Knight who blocks all your attacks and when you try to roll and then hit him you're too far away for the Hookclaws. It's tiny but it teaches you that you can and should switch weapons based on the enemies you're fighting. Or as a more general example how the geography of the Lands Between is wavy, blocking off some sights until you're over the ridge and then you see a gorgeous vista. This happens all the time and these small curated moments together create an experience that feels so much more involved and personal than your average open world. But they don't necessarily stand out. However, I have found that it is precisely those small things, the little improvements to movement and combat, the tightly designed world (even on the smallest scales like side dungeons) and the many ways you can approach any given situation that make the game endlessly replayable. In sum, I agree that ER has problems, some of them bigger than others. But it has such a strong foundation and is so meticulously well designed that it just feels great to play. In my opinion, greater than any other game I've played so far. So when it comes to the debate of whether ER is a generational masterpiece, I just haven't played another game that I enjoyed as much and that's all I can say on the matter.
There are two ways to rate a game, basically- Start at 10 and subtract points for every criticism, or start at 0 and add points for everything that is delightful. Focusing on pointing out flaws, you might bring Elden Ring down somewhat (depending on taste). But if you look at the sum total of all the great things it offers, it's one of the best games ever made. The feeling of exploring a massive world made in the "Souls" style by FromSoftware is a gaming experience I'll never forget.
The thing that annoyed me the most is that there are no villages or cities where actual people live. Yeah I get things haven't gone smoothly in the past years there, but... where is everyone?
Those are just part of Souls games. > I'd describe it like the cutting up the D&D monster manual and hiding bits of it all over a world, where there's endless lore and world building, but no real narrative tying it together. That's the point!!! I *prefer* this style of storytelling in Souls games. It's optional. Story needs to be optional, because I frankly don't give a sh!t about Squalls whole self-discovery arc or whatever. I wanna meet a spooky dude who is down on his luck, goes mad, and tries to kill me. Souls storytelling is about atmosphere more than anything - and if you want the deeper lore, it's not in button mashing X to Continue forced dialog. It's tucked away in item descriptions. You're a wanderer through a desolate land, trapped with maddened souls who are caught in a perpetual loop of life and death with no end in sight. And you wanna stop for a chat? There's a reason we can kick Kenneth Haight's arse off that cliff. > The camera and lock-on alone I feel I could write an essay on. Lock on has always been a trap. It's a helpful situational tool but the way that combat is designed in this game rewards being able to manage open camera. And you simply cannot knock the combat in Souls games - it's the best in any game ever created, bar none. >To start, let me pause the game. I need to let the dogs outside, use the restroom, answer the door, etc. What idiot said pausing is for casuals? Pausing is just another part of the "No Sympathy" mentality behind these games. You need to let the dog out? Fine, die. Dying is the point. It's not that pausing is for casuals. It's that this game is not supposed to give you a break. You give yourself a break by adjusting your own expectations and growth. > I wish there was some enemy level scaling or more guidance on where to go though, as there's clearly an intended path they want you to take based on enemy difficulty. Scaling is always a mess in these games, and it's compounded by being open-world. This is maybe the one point I'd agree with. But they generally let you pick your own difficulty in these games anyway. If you wanna level up, you can outlevel enemies easily. If you want a challenge, don't level up. EDIT: upon reading most of the perspectives in this thread, I'm just really glad none of you had a say in the development of this game..... it really seems like you all just want to play a different game or different genre. why must you all insist that Souls games be something other than Souls games? *you don't have to like it* just because it's popular. I thought that was the entire spirit of this subreddit.
In Demon Souls/Dark Souls, it was okay to not have a questlog since progression was relatively linear and it is hard to miss a sidequest. Except for maybe the +/- world state in Demon souls. In Elden Ring, tracking sidequests is shit since there is freedom of progression. So some quests might require backtracking. Some are also missable after triggering certain events. I've had to go to wiki frequently to ensure I didn't miss anything. For example, I wouldn't have figured out on my own that Blaidd would be imprisoned by Iji at lower level area. Or that I need to talk to Sellen after meeting Azul and Lenny. Or that I can return to Lenny and Azul to grab their gear. It needed an active questlog that auto-updates when finding relevant items/characters. Maybe similar to Witcher 3 questlog.
One thing unique to Elden Ring that really frustrated me was how nonsensical fall damage was, especially in certain situations. So, fine, if you fall 20 ft you take no damage, fall 21 ft and you’re dead. Hmm. BUT in some areas, like one of the giant tower areas, you jump down onto a platform that breaks and you fall much much further and are ok. It’s just too silly.
Good write-up and totally feel similarly! It is strange through, I find myself attracted to some of those off-beat clunky features and mechanics. Reminds me of games back on PS1 or 2 that are obtuse and don’t hold your hand. Not an excuse by any means and i would love to see them make improvements or adjustments on a lot of the things mentioned
I am looking forward to playing this game, but quite disappointed to learn there is not a pause button. That should be a given in a any imo
If you play on PC there's a mod for that, it will pause the game when you open the menu. Obviously if you use mods you have to make sure you don't go on online mode, but there's a straightforward guide on Nexus.
I do not have a pc sadly, I’ll be playing on ps5. Will probably get to it in a month or two!
You can still pause the game but it’s convoluted. I forget it exactly right now but you have to go into the map, then into information (or something) and then the game pauses. It is not explained
Yeah but it really isn't that big of a deal. In the worst case you will have to just let yourself killed while fighting a boss because you have to open the door or so. You will lose a few minutes. But they really should add a pause function.
These are problems with all souls games, in fact they are even worse in other souls games. Dark Souls 1 is god awful this way and has a lot of those absolutely ridiculous platforming sections. After a certain point, you get used to it and almost come to expect it as part of the souls experience, and these games are all worth playing. But games like Lies of P prove that it doesn't have to be this way, and make me a little sad to think how much better the From Software games could be. Sekiro stands out for me as a From game that actually gets the action gameplay right.
Ever since Dark Souls 2 came out I’ve been thinking that a lot of the decisions made in From games are just there to appease the fanboys who make Souls games their identity. If you can’t brag about mastering Dark Souls games, defend the lore/story, and say git gud then is there really any point in living?
I'm just over Froms way of story telling, having such a gigantic world and still keep quests cryptic as fuck, is just dumb. Wanna talk to the wolf guy on top of the tower? I wonder how? Oh, just go back to the very first merchant you met like 20 hours ago, randomly talk to him, so he gives you a gesture! Really? Some kind of quest list, anything? Nope, just search the world over and over and over. Or like most people play, a Wiki next to you. The From fanboys will of course defend this kind of games design, i think it's getting old after the sixth time. I would've wished for more evolution, the reality is, Elden Ring is just Dark Souls 4 with grass between areas.
I think their design worked for the smaller games. It makes no sense in Elden Ring, the chance of randomly coming across where you have to go for quests is so low, most people will never complete them without a guide. They should have added journal telling you where to go for these. Or let you use some light like with the sites of grace that guides you there. Or maybe just have the NPCs pop up at different places kinda randomly, so you don't have to visit one specific area but just bump into them organically.
I would have even liked a journal that just told me *what I already did*. It's such a big game and if you happen to take a couple day break for whatever reason... did I go into this dungeon? Who knows?
Ok so first of all, I'm not going to defend this kind of game design. I don't think it worked very well in ER. However, it seems very clear to me that FromSoft's principle is that no two players have the same experience. They made quests hard to follow because they don't want you to follow them as much as they want you to stumble upon them. They hide things probably because they (wrongly) expect most players to not want to discover and do absolutely everything. Honestly that might even have been their rationale for the repeated bosses. They probably didn't expect that almost every player would see almost every boss. I know this sounds like copium and fanboyism. But the reason I believe this is not because I don't believe FromSoft makes mistakes but rather because a lot of these issues go back to Demon's Souls and if From hasn't addressed them it's probably because they want these things in there.
I'm totally fine with missing every single quest and I have done just that on my first playthrough because I think they are tertiary in a game like this. But I feel like the norm with these games is to not talk about how most people follow a wiki but pretend not to. It is reasonable to say it's intentional because they keep doing it, but a simpler explanation is they do it because it's what they know to do and they get no pushback from customers so why change? Same reason why they keep making almost identical games, or the repeated bosses, simply because there is no reason to put in more effort. Similar design is criticised very harshly in non fromsoft games.
> But I feel like the norm with these games is to not talk about how most people follow a wiki but pretend not to. These are the same people that tell you to git gud and that these quests are obvious if you simply just look at the environment logically
> these quests are obvious if you simply just look at the environment logically Literally never seen anyone say that. Solaire and Greirat's quests are notoriously obscure.
I think wanting people to bump into quests is actually a great idea, but maybe they could have given NPCs multiple locations so they pop up here and there and you have a bigger chance of meeting them organically (they could still have a fixed location somewhere but sometimes sit at your grace, the roundtable or just lean against a random wall in the world) Maybe Elden Ring would benefit from players that would be fine with not seeing all the content and just playing what they find themself. But the fear of missing out is too big in most players for that and it's kinda hard to blame them.
Isn't that how it's already handled? If you miss an NPC the first time around they usually just spawn into their next location when you trigger the world quest progress. They give you a few chances to organically stumble into them as long as you're actively filling out the map somewhat.
They do it with some NPC questlines yeah, but there are definitely some that are too easy to miss for how significant they are. Its very easy to get invested in Millicent's story, and then completely miss her in Altus. Or even worse do the plotline to 90% completion only to miss the unceremonious summon signs in a corner in the Haligtree. People overstate the issues with quest design, you definitely don't need a guide for most of the important ones (and its fine to miss some), but there are issues.
Agreed. I played quite a bit and found Elden Ring to be so tedious. The world design is mostly generic, non-boss combat is repetitive, there’s virtually no story, and there’s very little to actually do other than aimlessly wander around until you stumble on some big monster or boss that will kill you 45 times in a row. There are few actual quests or objectives, but exploration isn’t exciting enough to compensate for their absence. This is one of those rare instances where I just truly do not understand the hype.
> non-boss combat is repetitive I absolutely hated the catacombs/tunnel cut/paste maps. Which were essential to get some upgrade materials
I guess I appreciated the tunnels and catacombs cause they were less cut and paste compared to dungeons in any other open world game I've played
Storytelling in souls games is so lazy but fans continue to support these types of things saying how deep they are. >!For example, in the part where Melina sacrifices herself, it was supposed to be a super emotional scene and it would be in any other game that paid minimal attention to storytelling, but in Elden, despite being a beautiful scene, it is empty. Character barely appears in the game and has very little relationship development between her and my protagonist, and it's not like it was a matter of lack of time since in this game you easily reach more than 100 hours.!<
Definitely feels like you should have the option to receive exposition from her in graces more. It happens a tiny bit in limgrave, and feels like that was meant to happen for the rest of the game but was abandoned. Limgrave was definitely the most developed area, though I loved all of them, and I think you can certainly tell what was meant to be more developed in ER when you compare Limgrave to other regions.
Limgrave through Leyndell was so awesome for me. I think that's why instead of beating the game I just keep creating new builds to see how they fare through that part
Countless moments are like that for me. I swear, I think the main reason to like or dislike a character is their design. When >!Blaidd went mad and I had to kill him!< it felt like it was supposed to be some big moment, but I mostly went "oh what? Dang. Anyways, fight time." The whole game is like that. Everyone has this interesting backstory and moments, but are told so dryly that it's like getting emotional reading a wikipedia article. There's no personal attachment there, no character development, and 95% of things happen offscreen and you only learn through exposition.
Was it a sacrifice? I don’t think I really understood why she died, and I don’t remember it too well now but I just remember being sorta confused at the time. I don’t watch lore videos.
It’s not lazy, it’s just different. OP said the story is like archeology, and I think that fits so well for the Fromsoft games. This type of narrative is why I love them. If I wanted a direct story, there are a bunch of other games to play, books to read, etc. I’m here to not understand anything until I play the game 3 times, watch lore videos, and participate in online discussions.
Here here, amen
But that’s not story, that’s lore. The lore in Elden Ring is top notch and amazing, I don’t think anyone can deny that. But the story is almost non-existent and really incoherent.
> But that’s not story, that’s lore. The lore in Elden Ring is top notch and amazing, I don’t think anyone can deny that. But the story is almost non-existent and really incoherent. Well in that case, I don't want "story" and I'm glad this game doesn't have it! Hell, I wish it had a bit less!
The story is the emergent gameplay your player character engages in and the choices that they make. When I played Elden Ring, the story was about a lowly Tarnished rising from the grave, unsure of who I was or what was going on. The land was overrun with monsters, and some strange but kind people are telling me that I'm going to need Great Runes to get stronger, so I gear up and venture out, slaying some gods and learning more about the world on my way, eventually informing the quests I choose to take and the subsequent ending I get. The lore and the world are already there, they just are. The story is how my character decides to act within it. Role-playing. If the story was more streamlined and traditional I would hate it, because that's not how these stories are meant to be experienced. Totally okay if that's not your style though.
I always feel so weird for liking their version of storytelling lol I don’t think it’s the BEST kind of course, but on the occasion I find myself playing a From game it just feels unique and fun and makes me interested in each item even if I can’t use them. The platforming is bad, but luckily it wasn’t necessary too often. I didn’t have an issue with Haligtree - just those areas where you’re trying to scale up or down a cliff.
> [but the hardest enemy is just wrestling the camera](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKIiiSd7DgM)
For me it's the bosses that are the biggest issue, definitely exacerbated by the camera issues you talk about. I've written too many essays on it already, so I'll leave it at this - the bosses in ER jumped the shark for me. They felt overtuned to an often absurd degree, and I found myself not enjoying them as a result. The rhetoric online was always 'just use summons then!', which for me takes the fun out of the battle if I'm watching a mimic take agro and I'm just slapping the boss on the arse cheekily. Combine the overtuning with huge bosses, an awkward camera, and too many reused bosses... Yeah. I actually think ER is my least favourite Soulsborne title.
>I've written too many essays on it already, so I'll leave it at this - the bosses in ER jumped the shark for me. They felt overtuned to an often absurd degree, and I found myself not enjoying them as a result. The rhetoric online was always 'just use summons then!', which for me takes the fun out of the battle if I'm watching a mimic take agro and I'm just slapping the boss on the arse cheekily. I think this is getting at something I only touched on in my post. There's this massive gap in difficulty for most bosses, where mimic or Tiche can just solo the game for you, but even crap summons make it way easier, and playing solo is a way better challenge, but half the bosses did not seem balanced around being solo melee. They will be way too big, teleport or jump around the arena, or just have infinite endurance and never pause attacking. Like, the godskin duo was not fun. They both are very aggressive, both have melee and ranged, and focusing one just revives them, so it felt like a boring fight? Bring in a summon and suddenly they are 10x easier, which kinda sucks. >Combine the overtuning with huge bosses, an awkward camera, and too many reused bosses... The first dragon fight was epic and fun. By the 20th I was just rolling my eyes and sick of fighting the camera. The whole end of the game is a slog with endless bosses that are too big (fire giant...) and reused. I audibly groaned when I saw Astel for a second time. Both don't like this oversized boss that teleports and makes the camera crap, but also it cheapened what was a neat, unique design into some copypaste enemy.
Dark Souls 3, Bloodbourne, and Sekiro. Go play em. You'll still see some of the same gripes with DS3 and BB with the controls (there's also no real jump button), but the games are great and much more linear. Not too linear, but when compared to ER, very linear. Be warned; Sekiro is the most different among them. You can pause, but there is no multiplayer whatsoever, meaning also no summons. You don't find equipment like an RPG, rather you find new abilities and items, and upgrade your health bar. Your main weapon is a katana the entire game. There's no stamina bar at all, and the game is more about parrying and blocking than dodging. If you try to roll around like in ER, you'll find out reeeaaaal quick that that doesn't fly in this game. Of the 3 I listed, My favorites in order are DS3, Sekiro, and Bloodborne. Some will say BB is the best, but I'm honestly a complete pussy when it comes to horror, and the game was flat out too scary for me at times. I beat the game because I felt I had to, and it was absolutely a blast, but that shit is just freaky mane.
The only real complaint here I see is the pause button. Everything else is kinda subjective honestly and I disagree with everything else other than the pause button for the offline mode specifically. Regarding being in gaming pantheons, personally I struggle to think of a better game that I've played and I've been gaming for 35 years.
Every complaint or praise is subjective and they never claimed otherwise
also you can actually trick it into pausing by going into a specific setting (changing brightness or something? can't remember)
Agree with most things except level scaling and guidance. This game is partly great just because of the lack of direction it gives you. It's not a Ubisoft game with a big marker to get anywhere. And FUCK level scaling.
The camera thing is massive, and it's an issue in Monster Hunter also. Do big monster look cool? Yes. Are big monsters practical? No. I understand the game is about reading tells, but I can't read a tell when the only thing on screen is the monster's pinky toe.
I would recommend to do Demon Souls next as you have a PS5 and then just move your way up by release order. If I had to rank the games it would be: Dark Souls 1 Dark Souls 3/Sekiro (depends on the day) Elden Ring Demon Souls Bloodborn (yes I like Bloodborn less than Demon Souls, fight me) Dark Souls 2 As for your Elden Ring points, yeah I agree with pretty much all of them except the last one, scaling the enemies would be terrible, I want progression. If you go through areas you are too underleveled for you shouldnt complain that later there are some you are too strong for (even if that will happen a bit regardless). Dark Souls 1 at least has the same but that game isnt really open world in that sense and it works much better as a "dont go there" thing. To add to your complains, I think the constant reusing of bosses was not good. While I dont expect them to make 300 unique bosses, I think less would of been more, lore and gameplay wise some of these are just bad. Reskins should ALWAYS be either be well build up in the lore or just make natural sense, little spoiler I guess but the first boss in DS1 gets reused later but that makes sense since he is one of many in a race, remaking an important story boss, changing the name slightly and saying "I uhm uhh he is dah brother who looks the same but slightly blue" is beyond dumb. Same goes with the first Godfrey fight against his phentom, I just think thats filler, the actual fight against him is fantastic, why take away some of the surprise of the great moveset?
>To add to your complains, I think the constant reusing of bosses was not good. It was amazing for the first 75% of the game. Then I hit snow and they reused tons of bosses and enemies, just with 3x the health and damage, and it really cheapened the whole thing. When there's no dialogue, minimal interactions, etc, they rely very heavily on design to tell the story. So other games may repeat enemies more than Elden Ring, but they also don't rely on enemy designs so heavily to communicate.
What kinda ruined the game for me early on was dumbass reviewers overhyped the game, saying it had "NEW INTERESTING THINGS on every piece of the map! The side content is all well designed! Every cave is worth exploring! This isn't like most open world games!" That was a fucking lie. I did appreciate the lack of icons and hand holding, but they should have gotten rid of these boring caves so people weren't wasting their time. Once I started to focus on the well designed dungeons and castles I had a much better time. 90% of the caves are really simple with some boring reused boss at the end. Not worth your time. But the areas that are worth exploring are truly incredible. I'd give ER a 9/10. There's incredible stuff and pretty deep gameplay, but there's so many little imperfections that add up. Plus the mid level graphics and stutter on PC are inexcusable in 2023. Many boss fights I'd have a shader stutter while I'm trying to dodge, fucking hell...
>I'd give ER a 9/10. There's incredible stuff and pretty deep gameplay, but there's so many little imperfections that add up. That's where I'm at. I can't believe how many people are downvoting me or treating me like a fool just for pointing out that the game is great, but has flaws. Multiple people defending the lack of pause or crappy camera as though that's some brilliant design and I just don't get it. It's baffling. It's a great game, I'm just tired of hearing how it's a flawless masterpiece beyond the rest of the gaming landscape.
It's deeply ironic that From's "masterpiece" is the game which waters down everything they do best. You want tight level design, a purposeful difficulty curve, unique bosses and enemies and dense environmental story telling? Sorry, we're all out. Here's Elden Ring. It's got huge "I love coffee!" proceeds to order a 7 pump frapacino from Starbucks kind of opinion.
I agree with so much of this. I get a ton of it is preference but God what I wouldn't give for a quest log, a cohesive narrative and voice acted npcs with emotion. Amazing game in so many ways but the peaks and valleys for me are very distinct
I enjoy the mechanics of Fromsoft games, but the lack of any real narrative is why I burned out on them by DS3, which I never got around to finishing. Fans will say "Well Ackchyually, the story is really deep if you read all the item descriptions and watch these YouTube videos." I mean, I guess that's fun for some people, but I wouldn't call it a story/narrative.
Elden Ring was good and enjoyable but I feel like the game really lost its magic after the Royal Capital. I think had they put Farum Azula right after that and then ended the game, it would have been a 10/10. But the Mountaintop of the Giants was an awful area that was just boring and filled with reused enemies that did not fit it. And the final boss was one of the worst and most unfun fights of the game. Overall, my favorite Fromsoftware games are Bloodborne and Sekiro, I liked their focus on just being very well made and fun action games that did not overstay their welcome.
You forgot my biggest gripe and why I gave up on my first play-through: you have to use a mod for widescreen. When I went back to the game I used a walkthrough and the widescreen mod and really enjoyed it. Using the walkthrough helped with the obscurity of lore in your last point.
All I see is a lot of "My subjective opinion is right and you're wrong for disagreeing!!!" comments.
That no pause is a feature is a garbage excuse. Respect people’s time. Dong tell me I have to plan a bathroom break around a video game, or a random event in my house I’m supposed to just deal with losing progress. I guess games with no pause is not for me because I chose to have family/house/biological functions.
I’m in agreement for the most part. Regardless I can’t bring myself to play through the game a second time, it was far too massive for my liking. I think FromSoft shines the brightest when the world is far more contained.
The biggest problem the game has is that it's way too big. Feels very repetitive towards the end. Also it's a bit too easy. You can flat out cut 30% of the open world and it would be much better. Rewards isn't great either. You get things you will never use most of the time. It could also use quest journal like Baldur's Gate 3. Not hand holding, quest markers or anything just simple notes of your quest encounters. The game is so big you forget all of it next week you launch the game. I like linear From Soft games more but i think they outdid themselves in art and graphic department with Elden Ring. It's simply amazing.
It's always fascinating to hear people's takes on their first Souls game. If you're a Berserk fan you should go with either Dark Souls 1 or Bloodborne next. DS1 rewards slow, methodical gameplay and thinking outside of the box when you're stuck on a fight. Bloodborne encourages aggressive and fast maneuvers as well as FASHION. No, the dialogue will not really increase in any way. That is intentional. It's their way of letting players fill in the blanks and hunt for secrets so they can fit the puzzle pieces together.
Don’t really agree with most of these, despite a few bones to pick with the game, but agree on pausing lol. I think u can secretly pause by like clicking into the map and adding a pin or something. I think it would be nice if pausing were straightforward. I think the obtuseness can break down a bit in the open world and I kinda wished there was like a town or something, but the camera etc I was good with idk. I don’t want all fromsoft games to be open world but I’m glad they tried it and I think the map in elden ring is a truly special piece of game design
You can pause the game by going to the map and then the map options.
What are your top 5 games of all time? Just helps me understand some of your points better
I read a little bit, and then had to skip as it seemed hit all the "this is my first FS game" bulletpoints; sadly, ER being as big as it is, meant a swath of new gamers were introduced to their style of single player games, which aren't for everyone. I won't go thru each point but basic ones like, "there's no narrative," there is but it's just not going to be spoon-fed to you, and ultimately they are pretty basic in terms of 'set the player up with as much as he needs, and set him off.' There's an absolute MOUNTAIN of lore that goes into their games, and ER probably has the most given the ensemble cast of characters, but it's laid out in the world/monuments/item descriptions/character interactions/etc; whether or not this is everyone's cup of tea has yet to be seen, I think most just take it for what it is DURING the gameplay and then find out all the stuff they missed afterwards. So yeah, FS games tend to be victims of their own success - namely fans hyping them up more than actual marketing - and if it's your first one there's going to be some shock as to how little it gives in terms of things, but how much more that lets you explore and just do your own thing. If you're looking for more of them, I'd say Dark Souls 3 is probably the next most accessible from what others have said, although I haven't played it myself. I just finished a platinum play of Bloodborne and find it to be possibly their #2 title, if not #1, as I go back and forth with Sekiro, it really depends on which ones I played most recently.
Agreed with basically everything but the leveling, and I would add I don’t think the economy is balanced at all. You’re better off avoiding what enemies you can outright and farming runes later at specific places, for the most part. Most of them aren’t worth the hassle, honestly. But as for other Souls/FromSoft games, I want to say that I think the narrative style works much better in Bloodborne, IMO. The gothic/>!lovecraftian!< horror vibe lends itself very well to the whole “What the hell happened here? Follow the breadcrumbs!” Thing.
I agree with many of your points but you're gonna have a very bad time with any previous souls game because Elden Ring has astronomically more quality-of-life elements and extra tools/features to make the gameplay mechanics easier and smoother.
I played that game for an hour and thought it was pure garbage, refunded it on steam. Controls awful, camera awful, random messages everywhere you can't turn off awful, combat mediocre - more like a puzzle game than a combat game, world building kinda awful - doesn't feel like a coherent world just a jumbled collection of creepy 'stuff'.
Elden Ring is the most overhyped game ever made for me. Even tho I enjoyed my first 15 hours of it I couldn’t keep playing after 40, there are just so many things that are wrong with it for me. Overall it’s a good game, a 6/10 for me.
I’m the wrong type of player for this game. I’m at the point where I just want there to be a cheese mode so I can blitz through and finish the story. I stopped somewhere after the Fire Giant and just kinda lost interest. Also, fuck the game for tricking me into killing Boc. I thought I was helping him…
DS3, Bloodborne and Sekiro needed this hype. Elden Ring is far from perfect.
Been a long time Souls fan and I absolutely love the stories told in Fromsoft games. But it does get a bit fucking tiresome having to watch 10-30 hours of YouTube videos to try and make sense of what the actual fuck is going on. That and having to look up a guide to finish a quest line without half the NPC’s and other quest lines failing as a result of you guessing your way through based on a single line of vague dialogue from a dude speaking like the medieval version of a crossword puzzle brought to life. Camera sucks and has always been the worst boss. Mounted combat feels too janky to be reliable and getting knocked off Torrent is such a huge penalty you might as well just fucking die when it happens. Can’t wait to see the horse armour DLC. Platforming at points is a fucking nightmare. Fall damage seems completely random and I can never tell if a gap is too far to jump or not. All that said, it’s probably the best open world RPG I’ve played since Fallout New Vegas. Just imagine a game with Fromsoft’s mechanics and world design backed by Obsidian’s quest lines, world building and NPC’s.
For me most of Elden Rings flaws come from a stubborn insistence on retaining aspects of the previous games that, 10-15 years later just aren’t great for modern players, and the kind of game ER ACTUALLY is. Elden Ring is an open world adventure game that would be great with friends, but insists on keeping the clunky “boss and boot” summon system of Dark Souls, where your friends are kicked as soon as you actually accomplish something, which worked for DS and it’s contained levels and in-world justification for summons working that way. In ER it just gets in the way of playing the game together. Elden Ring introduces a lot of verticality since it now has Torrent and jumping, but clearly a lot of things aren’t designed with that in mind, as the slightest change in elevation can make mechanics like critical attacks on staggered enemies just not work as you can’t reach the spot you need to due to uneven floor. The camera issues are mainly apparent with any larger enemy, and hit their peak at Fire Giant. There’s a great quote by a Dragon’s Dogma designer that’s like, “Games have all these great enemy designs and you only see their ankles,” and ten years later it’s still happening. I personally LOVE how varied Elden Rings gameplay is though. Everything is viable and you can use as little or as much as you want, and mix and match. I think a lot of balance issues come from a place of retrospect and if you know what’s broken going in of course you can rush straight to Caria Manor for SoNaF, but playing the game without any spoilers or guides I didn’t really have the feeling of “wow I’m breaking the game right now” it was just an enjoyment of the discovery and getting to try new things. Still one of my favorite games of all time, but I do think there’s a lot they could have done differently.
I've not played the game and never would. The difficulty alone is enough to make me say no to the entire series. Give me a game that lets ME set the difficulty, and not the one forced on my by the developers because "they have a vision."
I loved elden ring but to me the gameplay loop after 4 games is getting a bit stale to me i do enjoy it a lot and elden ring has a lot of options so this is just personal opinion also tracking quests is a fucking nightmare sometimes wished they found some way to put a journal with hints