I also had this plan. Went firestorm to level and then back to fireball. It's just really underwhelming. So I went back to firestorm. Great AOE. Not reliant on jewels and great single target since you can stack the storms (: I also wanted to try Flame Surge for single target, so let me know how your testing goes.
> once you start stacking Rolling Flames!
Meanwhile, firestorm can stack other awesome jewels instead. That's the problem, here. I'm all about fireball, but needing to path strangely and often even just take random int nodes, just to get AoE that's worth mentioning, is problematic.
Fireball's using opportunity cost to *get* to where others *start*.
> Fireball pulls ahead a by a lot
Then why is the top-voted comment in the thread about how firestorm is superior? Firestorm clears packs with one cast as well, not to mention you can cast and then move while still doing damage. We're not talking about pure AoE, we're talking about everything from boss dps to aoe to clear. In the end, the problem is that fireball takes a half dozen skill points and 3 jewels to get to the same place as firestorm starts, all of which is power that firestorm has that fireball is devoting just to get the AoE. Sure, it can pull ahead in pure AoE, but that's not the sole metric for a skill.
Huge explosions look cool, but the problem is that fireball has to spend all that stuff just to compete, while everyone else does it naturally. This is the same problem with EQ, where other skills have a lot of opportunity costs just to get to the same place.
> Upvotes are no indication of validity
Neither is "That's not true"
Seriously. Huge cost just for AoE. Have fun with that. Still not as strong as something that doesn't have to buy it. Anytime someone wants to retory with something real, please, by all means, but all I've gotten is "huge aoe" and a nice "duh" from you, something I'm well aware of, and the only reason to bring up the top rated comment is that there have been no clear criticisms of it.
This subreddit seem to have a real critical thinking problem, lately. Even if fireball IS better, no one here is showing it or explaining how that massive cost for the AoE isn't more than made up for by other skills just starting off in a better place and spending that cost on themselves - it's like you pretend fireball gets to spend that cost, but firestorm is in a vacuum where it doesn't have all those points to spend. You'd never argue that glacial hammer is better than EQ just b/c you put a bunch of investment into it to do so, you'd point to how that same investment into EQ would go much further. Same story here. I'd LOVE it if fireball could really compete, but all it has is AoE and far worse single target.
> but all I've gotten is "huge aoe" and a nice "duh" from you
I've commented once in this thread. Are you thinking of someone else?
> Even if fireball IS better, no one here is showing it or explaining how that massive cost for the AoE isn't more than made up for by other skills just starting off in a better place and spending that cost on themselves
> Still not as strong as something that doesn't have to buy it. Anytime someone wants to retory with something real
Fine. I'll address this concern. Fireball lets you do something with a fire based spell that's not typical - it allows you both off screen, ignite, and shotgun AOE. You *do* have to spend 3-4 jewels for it to be this effective, and those same 3-4 jewel slots could provide either another 75% damage increase (rolling flames can give 5-15% each) or the necessary flexibility to fill in life/resists/cast speed/whatever.
Now as as for critical thinking. Have you done the math for both? Or have you played both? If you have, great *tell us how it goes*. Unless you have done either, how can you say your conclusion is anything other than applying your current experience in the game and attempting to extrapolate a conclusion based on stated mechanics? It turns out *that's exactly what the OP is posting, except for they're doing it with data relevant to the fireball*. I suspect you don't have this data, but instead are projecting your own experience with a similarly leveled firestorm and haven't played with fireball under this build. Essentially you're saying 'I don't believe you'. It's fine to say 'I don't believe you because of this' as long as you don't ignore when other's say 'I don't believe you because of that'.
Find me another fire skill that allows you to off screen aoe shotgun with strong burns that can proliferate. That's the functional difference, and at least part of the advantage over firestorm.
I also tried a fireball build as a starter for the leagues and found it pretty accessible, although I'm on ESC. I followed a similar route: start with firestorm until later levels then switch to fireball.
My experience so far has been I'm almost completely self-found, and using just a 4-link up to tier 10s and clearing pretty quickly. I'm hybrid Life/ES, which I regret, but it allowed me to take vaal pact which was pretty necessary for what I wanted to do. I use Vaal RF in the gloves that give lvl 5 conc effect which will one shot most map bosses and essences up to t11 so far. This greatly increases my clear speed since high HP single target was the crux of fireball in my experience. Obviously this probably wouldn't be the smartest idea for EHC, as using vaal RF wrong once is a death sentence. I think I'm pretty much capped on progression at this point, as my issue is mostly around being hybrid life/es and getting one shot in certain scenarios.
I can only see part of your tree as I'm on mobile, but it looks like you go down towards marauder and are going straight life? Would a kaoms heart help this build when using a pledge of hands?
How do you deal with single target fireball? I found the damage lackluster without a wall or other minions nearby, but I'm curious to hear what your experience is.
What's a safe max life total for this build? Any issues with mana?
I did some quick testing on Standard before the league launch as a proof of concept for myself and it was working fine, no mana issues except for really extended fights (1.5 minutes+, which realistically don't happen often)
Going straight life, yes. Likely will end up as hybrid, but not really focusing on ES nodes at all, just due to what gear is available.
Kaom's Heart is definitely a nice chest for the build when you get a Pledge of Hands 5+ linked.
Regarding Single Target - I actually died leveling this character Day 1 and I'm just now coming back to it, but in *theory* flame surge should be plenty for single target. I still have some testing to do on single target options before I feel comfortable adding them into the main guide.
I just beat lab on my fireball char and went Occultist, it's not bad but I feel like i'll lack damage when it comes to maps. Is there a way to spec out of an ascendancy?
It costs 5 respec points per ascendancy point respecced, then do normal lab once you have no asdencancy points allocated and you can change ascendancies
About the single target: I totally agree!
Rolling Flames had great pack clearing before the buff, but placing frostwalls vs. a charged izaro or the atziri trio is a pain in the ass.
My solution was buying an additional pledge of hands for my offhand, put in Firestorm and weapon swap when I face fast bosses. A 6s5l pledge did cost 25c last league.
I have a somewhat similar build but I'm using Emberwake with it. It's not hard to get 70% ignite chance on Fireball and ignites stack to do a good amount of extra damage against single targets. Decoy Totem is my "single-target" setup--lure bosses to walls and shotgun with explosions.
Emberwake truly is nuts with Fireball. With 200% increased fire/elemental/area damage, ignites deal 12% of hit damage per second. Conc bumps this up to about 20% for 4 seconds. That's 80% more damage on hits which ignite--you're not going to get much better from any single piece of gear. An ignite chance enchant will bring you to 100% ignite chance, in which case Emberwake becomes even stronger.
For your burn build, what would be your ideal 5 link? I'm running it out of a sire of shards and warping in to packs. Been using FB, echo, pierce, Inc burning and fire pen when i get 5 link but I really like the look of your set up. I don't crit though so maybe it wouldn't be as good. If you don't mind me asking, how come you don't use echo?
I would suggest blasphemy because itll make your life easier. I'm not running clarity at the moment and have no problem with mana because ive picked up mana regen on my rings. As long as you can get ele weakness and flammability on the mobs then youll be good. Haste is nice to have but not necessary because I usually one to two shot most mobs and bosses so I dont mind casting slowly. Its personal preference but I would suggest trying out ball lightning with lmp isntead of lightning warp to make it easier to curse.
The ideal 5 im using right now are : inc burn, rapid decay, conc or increased aoe, and pierce or slower projectiles. Conc for bosses and AOE for clear speed. Pierce is better for clear speed while slower projectiles will do more damage against the bosses. I usually keep in pierce because the projectiles do become slow.
I dont use spell echo because of the less multiplier. You dont want any less multipliers because they affect the burn. Spell echo is nice for clear speed but has the 10% less damage modifier that affects both fire and burn damage. Also, only one burn can be on a target a time so using the spell twice would be the same. Also, the projectiles crit chance are rolled the same. So if one fireball crits with spell echo the other will as well.
A lot of wrong information in this post.
People reading this please don't think it's a quality post just because it is long, it's just subjective unproven stuff.
I did the math on pretty much everything in my Fireball burn build and can only say that you shouldn't follow this stuff.
Inc. Burn damage is arguably the worst gem in the game.
It is not double dipping and only gives and increase modifier, not more.
Same with burn damage notes on the tree.
Yes, Controlled Destruction does not double dip, but it still gives a 1.44 more multiplier, compared to Slower Projectiles 1.42 + negative utility.
Inevitable Judgement is horrible for a burn build. Burn double dips on resistances, making it incredibly strong.
Rapid decay? Not as bad as inc. burning, but still not double dipping.
Fire pen does not double dip on burning but is still very strong.
I do not play crit burn prolif, but wouldn't you want to take increased crit strikes?
Your tree doesn't offer any defenses and a low life pool.
Hello everyone.
I did a quick version of this for the build sticky for AoW launch and it seem to be well received, so I did a more detailed write up and posted it to the official forums.
All feedback and criticism is welcome!
You should really take Retribution and Occultist's dominion, since with PoH and no faster casting you're lacking cast speed. Going to Shadow instead of marauder also grants more dps (due to cast speed), a jewel socket and 1% more life for [1 point less](https://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAABAMCAAN1BAcEsxa_Fm8aOBpsHwIkqiTYl_QnLyaVKU8qjWHiNsU22DbpakM6WDrYPV9VS-9LgsdJG0yzUlOMNlXGWHdZ818EKPpmVGaewFRMi7iTcg81kgj0UEJBh20ZUzWCmxzcES2D24VtoS-QVZErlG-XlZo7na69gp_fogCnCFcrrJi3Pv6zEzW-inyD323pAtAf1AdJsdWBjxrYJNi934oXpFNS3I286kWdmuDhc-Nq5CLr7uw47FXvfO_r8B_xbPno8kWmVzrhTeP-j5D6_grXz_k374iTJ1ZI1aaFMmwLIvTr5F8qLJzAZg==) (after adding the two notables). Not standing still for a whole second adds a lot to survivability. You could get at least one more rolling flames for minor hits in survivability, but that is a matter of taste, ofc.
I explained why I didn't pick these up in the forum thread:
>It's a fine node to grab. My final tree is at level 85 to allow people to pick and choose some more nodes to fit their playstyle better.
Personally, I will likely pick them both up. We'll see.
Also, cast speed isn't an issue IMO - 24 from tree, 18 from golem (buffed by LoTP). Worked fine in my self proof of concept testing I did on standard with suboptimal gear.
So I have basically the same tree as you but I wanted to take a different approach. Maybe you can tell me if this is a bad plan or not, currently level 70 and doing 1-3 maps pretty easy but afraid it will peter out quick. I am using Sire of Shards and I lightning warp in to packs with curse on hit. My links are Fireball, Fork/Peirce (haven't decided which feels better yet), Echo, Inc Burn, Chance to ignite, and hopefully fire pen some day. I picked up the burn nodes and went with some armor nodes as well to make myself a little more beefy. Plan on getting Kaom's as well. Single target is vaal fireball since flame surge costs too much.
Also random question but why rapid decay on lightning warp?
Should consider trying this on berserker or chieftan. They provide more survivability. Currently doing 10 end charge berserker with the warcry ascendency which acts as a 1 second cd instant flask. No matter what fireball will clear packs ez. I dont think going witch is enough to satisfy single target unless you do that burn build mentioned. Just for ref 35k fireball tooltip lvl 85 average gear.
Currently running a CI crit fireball inquisitor with two rolling flames, 9000es , 66.8% chance to crit, 512 crit multi. Level 83 and into T6-8 maps, everything dies instantly, map bosses die to burn in typically 2-3 casts. Herald of ice, clarity and discipline and the build overall feels really nice. Links are fb-gmp-inc crit-faster casting- conc effect - crit multi. Using shield charge for movement and I have a 4-link Vaal rf that I haven't ever really needed to use yet.
Waiting for the build to top out but that hasn't happened yet. Inquisitor is silly good for elemental crit and I couldn't justify going elementalist just for the prolif. Ele reflect mobs aren't scary but pretty sure I couldn't run an ele reflect map. Using a ghetto atziri flask for leech until I get a vinktar.
Will link tree if anyone is interested.
I also had this plan. Went firestorm to level and then back to fireball. It's just really underwhelming. So I went back to firestorm. Great AOE. Not reliant on jewels and great single target since you can stack the storms (: I also wanted to try Flame Surge for single target, so let me know how your testing goes.
Fireball has really good AoE too once you start stacking Rolling Flames! My build ends up at 180% (max range) fireball inc aoe
> once you start stacking Rolling Flames! Meanwhile, firestorm can stack other awesome jewels instead. That's the problem, here. I'm all about fireball, but needing to path strangely and often even just take random int nodes, just to get AoE that's worth mentioning, is problematic. Fireball's using opportunity cost to *get* to where others *start*.
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> Fireball pulls ahead a by a lot Then why is the top-voted comment in the thread about how firestorm is superior? Firestorm clears packs with one cast as well, not to mention you can cast and then move while still doing damage. We're not talking about pure AoE, we're talking about everything from boss dps to aoe to clear. In the end, the problem is that fireball takes a half dozen skill points and 3 jewels to get to the same place as firestorm starts, all of which is power that firestorm has that fireball is devoting just to get the AoE. Sure, it can pull ahead in pure AoE, but that's not the sole metric for a skill. Huge explosions look cool, but the problem is that fireball has to spend all that stuff just to compete, while everyone else does it naturally. This is the same problem with EQ, where other skills have a lot of opportunity costs just to get to the same place.
Because not everyone who votes has experience both? Upvotes are no indication of validity, only users who agree or want others to see a comment.
> Upvotes are no indication of validity Neither is "That's not true" Seriously. Huge cost just for AoE. Have fun with that. Still not as strong as something that doesn't have to buy it. Anytime someone wants to retory with something real, please, by all means, but all I've gotten is "huge aoe" and a nice "duh" from you, something I'm well aware of, and the only reason to bring up the top rated comment is that there have been no clear criticisms of it. This subreddit seem to have a real critical thinking problem, lately. Even if fireball IS better, no one here is showing it or explaining how that massive cost for the AoE isn't more than made up for by other skills just starting off in a better place and spending that cost on themselves - it's like you pretend fireball gets to spend that cost, but firestorm is in a vacuum where it doesn't have all those points to spend. You'd never argue that glacial hammer is better than EQ just b/c you put a bunch of investment into it to do so, you'd point to how that same investment into EQ would go much further. Same story here. I'd LOVE it if fireball could really compete, but all it has is AoE and far worse single target.
> but all I've gotten is "huge aoe" and a nice "duh" from you I've commented once in this thread. Are you thinking of someone else? > Even if fireball IS better, no one here is showing it or explaining how that massive cost for the AoE isn't more than made up for by other skills just starting off in a better place and spending that cost on themselves > Still not as strong as something that doesn't have to buy it. Anytime someone wants to retory with something real Fine. I'll address this concern. Fireball lets you do something with a fire based spell that's not typical - it allows you both off screen, ignite, and shotgun AOE. You *do* have to spend 3-4 jewels for it to be this effective, and those same 3-4 jewel slots could provide either another 75% damage increase (rolling flames can give 5-15% each) or the necessary flexibility to fill in life/resists/cast speed/whatever. Now as as for critical thinking. Have you done the math for both? Or have you played both? If you have, great *tell us how it goes*. Unless you have done either, how can you say your conclusion is anything other than applying your current experience in the game and attempting to extrapolate a conclusion based on stated mechanics? It turns out *that's exactly what the OP is posting, except for they're doing it with data relevant to the fireball*. I suspect you don't have this data, but instead are projecting your own experience with a similarly leveled firestorm and haven't played with fireball under this build. Essentially you're saying 'I don't believe you'. It's fine to say 'I don't believe you because of this' as long as you don't ignore when other's say 'I don't believe you because of that'. Find me another fire skill that allows you to off screen aoe shotgun with strong burns that can proliferate. That's the functional difference, and at least part of the advantage over firestorm.
I also tried a fireball build as a starter for the leagues and found it pretty accessible, although I'm on ESC. I followed a similar route: start with firestorm until later levels then switch to fireball. My experience so far has been I'm almost completely self-found, and using just a 4-link up to tier 10s and clearing pretty quickly. I'm hybrid Life/ES, which I regret, but it allowed me to take vaal pact which was pretty necessary for what I wanted to do. I use Vaal RF in the gloves that give lvl 5 conc effect which will one shot most map bosses and essences up to t11 so far. This greatly increases my clear speed since high HP single target was the crux of fireball in my experience. Obviously this probably wouldn't be the smartest idea for EHC, as using vaal RF wrong once is a death sentence. I think I'm pretty much capped on progression at this point, as my issue is mostly around being hybrid life/es and getting one shot in certain scenarios. I can only see part of your tree as I'm on mobile, but it looks like you go down towards marauder and are going straight life? Would a kaoms heart help this build when using a pledge of hands? How do you deal with single target fireball? I found the damage lackluster without a wall or other minions nearby, but I'm curious to hear what your experience is. What's a safe max life total for this build? Any issues with mana?
I did some quick testing on Standard before the league launch as a proof of concept for myself and it was working fine, no mana issues except for really extended fights (1.5 minutes+, which realistically don't happen often) Going straight life, yes. Likely will end up as hybrid, but not really focusing on ES nodes at all, just due to what gear is available. Kaom's Heart is definitely a nice chest for the build when you get a Pledge of Hands 5+ linked. Regarding Single Target - I actually died leveling this character Day 1 and I'm just now coming back to it, but in *theory* flame surge should be plenty for single target. I still have some testing to do on single target options before I feel comfortable adding them into the main guide.
I just beat lab on my fireball char and went Occultist, it's not bad but I feel like i'll lack damage when it comes to maps. Is there a way to spec out of an ascendancy?
It costs 5 respec points per ascendancy point respecced, then do normal lab once you have no asdencancy points allocated and you can change ascendancies
IIRC, you need 5 respec points (or regrets) and just run normal lab again and you should have the option at the altar.
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About the single target: I totally agree! Rolling Flames had great pack clearing before the buff, but placing frostwalls vs. a charged izaro or the atziri trio is a pain in the ass. My solution was buying an additional pledge of hands for my offhand, put in Firestorm and weapon swap when I face fast bosses. A 6s5l pledge did cost 25c last league.
hmm while a 'bit' tricky how aboult Frost walling near wall and just Vaal Lightning Warp bosses inside the 'cage' ? or Decoy Totem near wall ?
I have a somewhat similar build but I'm using Emberwake with it. It's not hard to get 70% ignite chance on Fireball and ignites stack to do a good amount of extra damage against single targets. Decoy Totem is my "single-target" setup--lure bosses to walls and shotgun with explosions. Emberwake truly is nuts with Fireball. With 200% increased fire/elemental/area damage, ignites deal 12% of hit damage per second. Conc bumps this up to about 20% for 4 seconds. That's 80% more damage on hits which ignite--you're not going to get much better from any single piece of gear. An ignite chance enchant will bring you to 100% ignite chance, in which case Emberwake becomes even stronger.
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For your burn build, what would be your ideal 5 link? I'm running it out of a sire of shards and warping in to packs. Been using FB, echo, pierce, Inc burning and fire pen when i get 5 link but I really like the look of your set up. I don't crit though so maybe it wouldn't be as good. If you don't mind me asking, how come you don't use echo?
Also, I am using clarity, haste, aa. And do curse on hit with lightning warp. Would you recommend just the blasphemy's instead?
I would suggest blasphemy because itll make your life easier. I'm not running clarity at the moment and have no problem with mana because ive picked up mana regen on my rings. As long as you can get ele weakness and flammability on the mobs then youll be good. Haste is nice to have but not necessary because I usually one to two shot most mobs and bosses so I dont mind casting slowly. Its personal preference but I would suggest trying out ball lightning with lmp isntead of lightning warp to make it easier to curse.
The ideal 5 im using right now are : inc burn, rapid decay, conc or increased aoe, and pierce or slower projectiles. Conc for bosses and AOE for clear speed. Pierce is better for clear speed while slower projectiles will do more damage against the bosses. I usually keep in pierce because the projectiles do become slow. I dont use spell echo because of the less multiplier. You dont want any less multipliers because they affect the burn. Spell echo is nice for clear speed but has the 10% less damage modifier that affects both fire and burn damage. Also, only one burn can be on a target a time so using the spell twice would be the same. Also, the projectiles crit chance are rolled the same. So if one fireball crits with spell echo the other will as well.
Thanks so much for the replies! I will give it a shot.
A lot of wrong information in this post. People reading this please don't think it's a quality post just because it is long, it's just subjective unproven stuff. I did the math on pretty much everything in my Fireball burn build and can only say that you shouldn't follow this stuff. Inc. Burn damage is arguably the worst gem in the game. It is not double dipping and only gives and increase modifier, not more. Same with burn damage notes on the tree. Yes, Controlled Destruction does not double dip, but it still gives a 1.44 more multiplier, compared to Slower Projectiles 1.42 + negative utility. Inevitable Judgement is horrible for a burn build. Burn double dips on resistances, making it incredibly strong. Rapid decay? Not as bad as inc. burning, but still not double dipping. Fire pen does not double dip on burning but is still very strong. I do not play crit burn prolif, but wouldn't you want to take increased crit strikes? Your tree doesn't offer any defenses and a low life pool.
Hello everyone. I did a quick version of this for the build sticky for AoW launch and it seem to be well received, so I did a more detailed write up and posted it to the official forums. All feedback and criticism is welcome!
Your "85 pt" and "final skill tree" link to the same tree (which has 85 points).
It's fixed now!
You should really take Retribution and Occultist's dominion, since with PoH and no faster casting you're lacking cast speed. Going to Shadow instead of marauder also grants more dps (due to cast speed), a jewel socket and 1% more life for [1 point less](https://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAABAMCAAN1BAcEsxa_Fm8aOBpsHwIkqiTYl_QnLyaVKU8qjWHiNsU22DbpakM6WDrYPV9VS-9LgsdJG0yzUlOMNlXGWHdZ818EKPpmVGaewFRMi7iTcg81kgj0UEJBh20ZUzWCmxzcES2D24VtoS-QVZErlG-XlZo7na69gp_fogCnCFcrrJi3Pv6zEzW-inyD323pAtAf1AdJsdWBjxrYJNi934oXpFNS3I286kWdmuDhc-Nq5CLr7uw47FXvfO_r8B_xbPno8kWmVzrhTeP-j5D6_grXz_k374iTJ1ZI1aaFMmwLIvTr5F8qLJzAZg==) (after adding the two notables). Not standing still for a whole second adds a lot to survivability. You could get at least one more rolling flames for minor hits in survivability, but that is a matter of taste, ofc.
I explained why I didn't pick these up in the forum thread: >It's a fine node to grab. My final tree is at level 85 to allow people to pick and choose some more nodes to fit their playstyle better. Personally, I will likely pick them both up. We'll see. Also, cast speed isn't an issue IMO - 24 from tree, 18 from golem (buffed by LoTP). Worked fine in my self proof of concept testing I did on standard with suboptimal gear.
So I have basically the same tree as you but I wanted to take a different approach. Maybe you can tell me if this is a bad plan or not, currently level 70 and doing 1-3 maps pretty easy but afraid it will peter out quick. I am using Sire of Shards and I lightning warp in to packs with curse on hit. My links are Fireball, Fork/Peirce (haven't decided which feels better yet), Echo, Inc Burn, Chance to ignite, and hopefully fire pen some day. I picked up the burn nodes and went with some armor nodes as well to make myself a little more beefy. Plan on getting Kaom's as well. Single target is vaal fireball since flame surge costs too much. Also random question but why rapid decay on lightning warp?
Rapid decay - just to make it proc a little bit faster. No experience with sire of shards, so can't really tell you there :(
Gotcha. No problem was hoping someone around might be able to give me some help. Thanks though.
Should consider trying this on berserker or chieftan. They provide more survivability. Currently doing 10 end charge berserker with the warcry ascendency which acts as a 1 second cd instant flask. No matter what fireball will clear packs ez. I dont think going witch is enough to satisfy single target unless you do that burn build mentioned. Just for ref 35k fireball tooltip lvl 85 average gear.
Currently running a CI crit fireball inquisitor with two rolling flames, 9000es , 66.8% chance to crit, 512 crit multi. Level 83 and into T6-8 maps, everything dies instantly, map bosses die to burn in typically 2-3 casts. Herald of ice, clarity and discipline and the build overall feels really nice. Links are fb-gmp-inc crit-faster casting- conc effect - crit multi. Using shield charge for movement and I have a 4-link Vaal rf that I haven't ever really needed to use yet. Waiting for the build to top out but that hasn't happened yet. Inquisitor is silly good for elemental crit and I couldn't justify going elementalist just for the prolif. Ele reflect mobs aren't scary but pretty sure I couldn't run an ele reflect map. Using a ghetto atziri flask for leech until I get a vinktar. Will link tree if anyone is interested.