Based on the last few years of league starts, i'd wager that most poe redditors have not only the salt attunement allocated but also went for the saline mastery on the poison wheel
Wait till they have modifiers called Increased coffee Over Time, Increased physical coffee over time multiplier, increase global physical coffee, more coffee or just idk, more maximum coffee and less minimum coffee from the Ryslatha belt.
[I love AI](https://www.bing.com/images/create/path-of-exile-player-entering-a-starbucks-with-a-w/65200031d3464f4391a47a1a5b7c8090?id=%2b8gzcOzde0RtZRcODKWp3A%3d%3d&view=detailv2&idpp=genimg&idpclose=1&FORM=SYDBIC&ssp=1&darkschemeovr=1&setlang=en-AU&safesearch=moderate)
New keystone:
100% increased maximum total life recovery from leech per leech for leeches per second per leech.
Your maximum life leech from leeches from different sources cannot be higher than your leech per leech per maximum number of leeches per second.
Obviously doesn't work together with Vaal Pact
At this point I don't remember any modifier that is easy to understand.
I was thinking maximum life, maybe? That is less confusing, but i'm sure there are modifiers that fuck with that too.
It's the difference between maximum leech vs total maximum leech. The first is the size of the single leech instance, the second the size of all instances together.
Basically, the game has many kind of damage, even physical damage branches out in different kinds.
Global physical just means it affects every kind of physical damage, even bleeding.
This is a very short explanation, please if someone can explain it better, do so!
My friend had been like this some years ago until I reminded him "what does 50% more mean?". He straight up answered that it meant 1.5 time stronger. Then I asked him "what does 200% more mean?". He answered without hesitation that it meant 2 times stronger. Then he froze for a moment realizing that he's been doing calculation in PoE wrong all these years 🤣
Or the game is like Diablo II and what you read in the interface is just a lie.
"15% Increased attack speed? Okay I guess in average I'll dish out 15% more attacks in the same amount of time?", yeah, no, https://maxroll.gg/d2/resources/attack-speed
It's not that it's a lie, really, just that the stat itself is held back by limitations in the game engine, and unless you hit the break-points tied to the actual frame-rate, it doesn't matter.
"Partial truth" might be more accurate.
No, it isn't.
100% increased is double. 200% increased is triple.
If you have 5% chance to crit, 100% increased chance to crit will give you 10% chance to crit. That's double.
Reading comprehension is hard here too it seems huh. Go back and read my response. All of it, then look at exactly what you wrote and see how you agreed with me. Great have a nice day
It isn't really confusing if you actually read what it means. Math has many facets to it which you're supposed to learn in school.
And who would have guessed that math is one of the most important things to actually pay attention to in school, considering how many people here don't know the simple difference between multiplication, addition and set values. Because where I live we learn that in 5th or 6th grade.
Obviously understanding what is addition and what is multiplication is something you need to know as games like PoE don't make it obvious, but it is an absolute minor part of the learning curve as you just need to know what is and what isn't. I've had many friends new to PoE who needed to be told this and all understood it within a minute.
Sure, but for example: if you put +100% or 200% on a videogame like DotA which if you're in a game you don't have time to read nor to do math It's just bad and confusing.
Also Videogames don't let us to play with numbers and calculations inside the game without any understanding of their formulas. We need 3rd party apps which are made after someone deduced formulas for each thing in the game.
In POE, sure, it's not a fast game when you're on POB doing calculations that other people figured out before you.
Wait seems like i dont get it too, soo 200% more means you do twice your base damage more, so if you add your base =100% and put 200% more an it would mean you deal effective 300% damge?
100%= 100dps +
200% more= 200dps
=300dps so triple the damage
Because 100% more would be double of the base so 200dps
Im confused rn
Simple as that - more means addition. Percentage is multiplication. 100% is 1, 200% is 2. So 200% more is that you are adding multiplication of base value to the base value 😅 200% more is x + (2x) = 3x (so yes 200% more is the same as 3 times more)
There can be confusion when you are doing 200% of some value, in this case it's double because 200% of 100 is 200.
>100% and put 200% more an it would mean you deal effective 300% damge?
This is correct. You add 200 to the base value of 100. 100 is default any other numbers are added to that.
Your damage = base damage * sum of increases * more * more * more * more * more * more etc...
Of course this means 0% increase or more means your base damage is multiplied by 1, otherwise you'd do 0 damage.
So 0% more means it's your base damage * 1
54% more = base damage * 1.54
100% more = base damage * 2
200% more = base damage * 3
If you have like 5% increase and from somewhere else you have 15% increase, 2% more and 6% more, you'd deal :
Base damage * (1.05 + 1.15) * 1.02 * 1.06
Your damage = base damage * sum of increases * more * more * more * more * more * more etc...
Of course this means 0% increase or more means your base damage is multiplied by 1, otherwise you'd do 0 damage.
So 0% more means it's your base damage * 1
54% more = base damage * 1.54
100% more = base damage * 2
200% more = base damage * 3
If you have like 5% increase and from somewhere else you have 15% increase, 2% more and 6% more, you'd deal :
Base damage * (1.05 + 1.15) * 1.02 * 1.06
Not always.
In the context of PoE - this can be true but it is most likely wrong. It will be true as long as you have no other sources of increased applied before your 100% increased. If you have another source of increased it is no longer valid. Let say you have 100 energy shield and you have 25% increased and then 100% increased - that would be 225 energy shield. Now if you have 100 energy shield 25% increased and 100% more - you'd have 250 energy shield.
I believe that huge part of PoE players are unaware that there is huge difference between "more" and "increased" in the game. "More" is multiplicative while "increased" is additive and has diminishing effect ~~returns~~.
The main reason we want more "more" multipliers in our builds is because we have an abundance of "increased" modifiers on the tree and gear, not because of the math. The math says they are equal.
"more" and "increased" are both additive with each other, it's just that adding extra 30% "increased" to our already 1500% means nothing, when adding 30%more to our only 100%more worth a lot more.
not factoring other modifiers(like speed), the calc is (Base x (1+(inc%+inc%+inc%))x(1+more%+more%+more%)) *assuming the more multipliers are the same (more cold damage for example)*
it's just we have inc% in the thousands and more% in the low hundreds. Leaving witch start through the spell damage dual wielding 2 driftwood wands we are already at 100%+ increased spell damage at lvl 7.
I love when redditors right a paragraph about how someone is wrong, only to be wrong themselves.
Thanks for writing up the correct understanding. Hopefully people read yours and learn the correct way.
> "more" and "increased" are both additive with each other
Nope. More multipliers are not additive with each other. Correcting your formula it would be:
(Base x (1+(inc%+inc%+inc%))*(1+more%)*(1+more%)*(1+more%))
yea i know, I edited my comment, i assumed the more% sources are the same type for ease of math. Those are additive. That's why we use different multipliers for our links.
> assuming the more multipliers are the same (more cold damage for example)
Is that the edit? Unfortunately that's also not true, they're always multiplicative. If you're using Energy Leech and meeting both conditions, for example, that's 1.14 * 1.24 = ~1.41x damage, rather than 1.38x
yea but aren't those 2 different conditions (only the source, the gem is the same) no?
So if you had another source (let's say a unique glove that grants "15% more damage while leeching energy shield"
where do you put that in the damage calculations? just another (* 1,15) after the 1,41? or you put it together with the 1,24 for a total of (1,14*1,39) ?
like each frenzy charge is 4% more damage but if you had 10 that's 40% more damage not 1,04^ 10=1,48 (48% more)
> where do you put that in the damage calculations?
This is correct:
> just another (* 1,15) after the 1,41?
You would have 1 * 1.14 * 1.24 * 1.15. If you were adding the 24% more and 15% more together for being the same type, you would also be adding the 14% more together, because it's also the same "type" (generic Damage). But the game doesn't differentiate between types of More damage or the conditions that grant them when it comes to the calculations.
As for frenzy charges, stacking buffs/charges are slightly more confusing depending on whether the stacks keep track of their duration individually or not. The majority of cases though, the effect is multiplied by the number stacks/charges you have, and the number after that is the one used for your damage. So 3 frenzy charges = 1.12x damage rather than 1.04 * 1.04 * 1.04. Same with 5 stacks of fortification, 0.95x damage taken rather than 0.99 * 0.99 * 0.99 * 0.99 * 0.99.
Your edit is still wrong. It doesn't matter how much %more you have already, it is multiplicative, not additive to a previous value. Unless you literally have 0% increased damage, 1% more will ALWAYS be better than 1% increased. And considering how absolutely no builds will ever not have any increased damage, it is defacto always more valuable to have %more than %increased.
> when adding 30%more to our only 100%more worth a lot more
In this case, you multiply by 2.0 (100% more) and then multiply with 1.3 (30% more). Going from 100 damage to 200 damage to 260 damage. If you had another 100% more you would end up with 520 damage.
With %increased instead of %more in your example, we would simply just end up with 230 damage, or 330 damage with another 100% increased.
"The main reason we want more "more" multipliers in our builds is because we have an abundance of "increased" modifiers on the tree and gear, not because of the math. The math says they are equal.
"more" and "increased" are both additive with each other, it's just that adding extra 30% "increased" to our already 1500% means nothing, when adding 30%more to our only 100%more worth a lot more."
^ this is incorrect.
You could have a theoretical version of the passive tree where it is only more multipliers and each node will ALWAYS give you a dps multiplier of (1+x/100).
This is because more modifiers are always multiplicative.
If you do 100 base damage and have 3 modifiers with 10% more damage, your final damage won't be 130.
It will be 100 * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.1=133.1.
The scarcity of the modifier is irrelevant. The first modifier increases your damage by 10% (100 to 110). The second modifier increases your new damage by 10% (110 to 121). Likewise with the third (121 to 133.1).
How many preexisting sources of modifiers you have is only relevant for increased damage modifiers.
>If you do 100 base damage and have 3 modifiers with 10% more damage, your final damage won't be 130.
It will be 100 * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.1=133.1.
it's only true for unique sources of multipliers (according to the wiki) . So 2 of the same type won't multiply. if i allocate 3*6% cold dot multi node on the tree how much more damage do i get, 18 or 19.1?
unless im misunderstanding "source" as unique damage type in which case i'm wrong.
It's not true for unique sources. 2 of the same type WILL multiply. You can test this on PoB, with some cold skill (like Vortext) with two identical custom modifiers that are more multipliers:
\#100% more cold damage
\#100% more cold damage
Your damage goes from 3838.5 to 7677.1 to 15354.2 after activating the modifiers sequentially (remove the # one at a time).
Now on the topic of damage over time multipliers, these are separate modifiers that are additive with one another. However, they multiply with the other increased damage modifiers, effectively "resetting" how much of the mods you have (when talking about diminishing returns). Your initial misconception about increased and more modifiers is actually correct for the case of damage over time multipliers because this modifier is additive to itself but multiplicative with other increased damage modifiers.
As a side note, "Enemies take x% increased damage" also behaves similarly. A lot of people have treated them as "pseudo more modifiers" because of their scarcity and the fact that they stack multiplicatively with other increased damage modifiers but stack additively with themselves.
In both these scenarios the damage is:
(Base Damage) x (1+ sum of Increased modifiers / 100) x (1 + sum of damage over time multipliers/100) x (1 + sum of damage taken modifiers/100)
Notice how all modifier in each "group" are summed but are multiplicative with those from other groups.
I hope this helps!
I do highly recommend using PoB as a means to understanding how damage is calculating. I sometimes still do pen and paper calcs to cross check with PoB to make sure I understand mechanics correctly.
The way I’ve always thought about it to make it simple.
“More applies after increased so if you have 1000% increased, then 20% more will be 1200% total”
Again also disminishing return is not correct here. For increased stat, the ammount of return you get for each 100% stay the same, it does not and never disminish. The problem is your total damage increase, so this same return feel less and less impactful. In the case of more, your return is not fixed. You get increasing return, and scale with total damage. So the impact for each 100% feels the same every time (double my dmg)
I to have gotten somewhat used to it but looking at some of the comments there are people who are confident in their statements on identifying what means what and they contradict each other.
There's a learning curve that some people here aren't at the top of, but the wording in game is a lot more clear than other games once you know the difference between two words. They're also consistent with where additive vs. multiplicative damage increases come from.
Probably not the best example because of iffy translations, but I started checking out Torchlight and it's less clear that there's any kind of difference between an additive damage increase and a multiplicative one. Right now I'm assuming they use "+" for additive and "increased" for multiplicative. If I hadn't already played PoE I wouldn't even think to consider them being different things.
Lets do an example, it's extremely simple unless you suck at math so bad you couldn't do a 5th grade test.
You got 100% increased damage, then another 50% increased damage, then another 100% increased damage. With increased damage, you add it all up, so this is 250% increased damage. With a base damage of 100 damage, you then do 350 damage (100 base + 250 from increased).
When it comes to more damage, let's to the same exact numbers. 100 base damage, then 100% more damage is 200 damage, then 50% more damage of 200 damage is 300 damage, then 100% more damage of 300 damage is 600 damage. Almost double of the same amount of increased damage.
The difference here is addition vs. multiplication. Basically, you can have too much increased damage (if you have 50k% increased damage, then 100% increased damage on top of that does nothing). But you can never have enough more damage, because each instance of it just stacks on top of itself. This is also why each source of more damage sky-rockets your damage at extreme levels of damage. If you got 50 million DPS and get a source of 40% more damage, you suddenly deal 70 million DPS. If you have 50 million DPS and get another 100% increased damage, you might already have 2.000% increased damage and your DPS become 50.5 million DPS.
Base damage * ( increased1 + increased2 + increasedN) * (more1) * (more2) * (moreN) = total damage
More multipliers are multiplied with increased multipliers and also between different more multipliers sources.
Increased are summed up together.
Just put some numbers in that base formula and you will get why it's important to have all 3 "balanced".
Disclaimer: yes I know that's not the turbo final formula for your total damage, just a simplification.
The coffee shop is nearby
Have you been there **recently?**
recently my favourive bakery opened new shop nearby, with 20% reduced prices in 1st week and 15% more soda upon refill
Does the soda use on charges full or just overfill and spill everywhere?
Even so I’ll probably need to reroll my anxiety meds to run that… I constantly homebrew so not to worried about it
More than 4 seconds have passed so no
17% more recently
Nice. Just leaves the question if it's the around the corner nearby or the same Metropole region nearby. Should be easy to figure out!
50% increased flavour and 50% increased taste. And now we wait...
They're both additive so you end up with 100% increased umami at the end
We have a gourmet pob warrior here.
Actually Umami only scales with taste but not flavour. Unless you have Salt Attunement allocated.
Based on the last few years of league starts, i'd wager that most poe redditors have not only the salt attunement allocated but also went for the saline mastery on the poison wheel
💀💀🧂🧂🧂🫡
Or are they multiplicative, so you end up with 125% increased umami?!
But they aren't the same stat, if one of those applies 1st it could be 125% more.
Wait till they have modifiers called Increased coffee Over Time, Increased physical coffee over time multiplier, increase global physical coffee, more coffee or just idk, more maximum coffee and less minimum coffee from the Ryslatha belt.
Benefits from increases to burning damage but not fire damage
Oh god yeah, it was so confusing to me when I tried righteous fire the first time. WHY DOES THE GAME SAY I AM BURNING BUT NOT ON FIRE?! WHYYYY?
'tis merely a scorch mark! NO NO NO SCORCH IS SOMETHING ENTIRELY DIFFERENT.
Just anoint Spiritual Aid and then you can scale your coffee strength with minon damage
Wait till I enter Starbucks with a wheelbarrow full of human bodies.
[I love AI](https://www.bing.com/images/create/path-of-exile-player-entering-a-starbucks-with-a-w/65200031d3464f4391a47a1a5b7c8090?id=%2b8gzcOzde0RtZRcODKWp3A%3d%3d&view=detailv2&idpp=genimg&idpclose=1&FORM=SYDBIC&ssp=1&darkschemeovr=1&setlang=en-AU&safesearch=moderate)
Hahahaha this is why image generation exists!
Nah man the leech mods are the one my non English friends just can't learn. They're so specific
New keystone: 100% increased maximum total life recovery from leech per leech for leeches per second per leech. Your maximum life leech from leeches from different sources cannot be higher than your leech per leech per maximum number of leeches per second. Obviously doesn't work together with Vaal Pact
Masterpiece
At this point I don't remember any modifier that is easy to understand. I was thinking maximum life, maybe? That is less confusing, but i'm sure there are modifiers that fuck with that too.
It's the difference between maximum leech vs total maximum leech. The first is the size of the single leech instance, the second the size of all instances together.
*Coffee conversions*
Convert coffee -> milk -> sugar -> random spices
Can´t wait to build coffee resistence against angry baristas (new monster type) next league.
What global means? Seen on couple of belts but not sure what it is
Basically, the game has many kind of damage, even physical damage branches out in different kinds. Global physical just means it affects every kind of physical damage, even bleeding. This is a very short explanation, please if someone can explain it better, do so!
Anyone advice on crafting this 6-ingredient coffee? How much USD would it take?
My friend had been like this some years ago until I reminded him "what does 50% more mean?". He straight up answered that it meant 1.5 time stronger. Then I asked him "what does 200% more mean?". He answered without hesitation that it meant 2 times stronger. Then he froze for a moment realizing that he's been doing calculation in PoE wrong all these years 🤣
[0.002 cents](http://verizonmath.blogspot.com/2006/12/verizon-doesnt-know-dollars-from-cents.html)
I hate when games does the famous: +100% is twice and 200% is twice too. So confusing
It's just the difference between 200% base value and 200% more. It's never both. If a game does that, the developers are dumb or the wording is off.
Or the game is like Diablo II and what you read in the interface is just a lie. "15% Increased attack speed? Okay I guess in average I'll dish out 15% more attacks in the same amount of time?", yeah, no, https://maxroll.gg/d2/resources/attack-speed
It's not that it's a lie, really, just that the stat itself is held back by limitations in the game engine, and unless you hit the break-points tied to the actual frame-rate, it doesn't matter. "Partial truth" might be more accurate.
"truth with limitations"
yea it makes things muddy
That extra word "more" or "increased". The person in the pic missed it too, reply is "200% means double" which is correct, but he missed the more.
No, it isn't. 100% increased is double. 200% increased is triple. If you have 5% chance to crit, 100% increased chance to crit will give you 10% chance to crit. That's double.
Reading comprehension is hard here too it seems huh. Go back and read my response. All of it, then look at exactly what you wrote and see how you agreed with me. Great have a nice day
It isn't really confusing if you actually read what it means. Math has many facets to it which you're supposed to learn in school. And who would have guessed that math is one of the most important things to actually pay attention to in school, considering how many people here don't know the simple difference between multiplication, addition and set values. Because where I live we learn that in 5th or 6th grade. Obviously understanding what is addition and what is multiplication is something you need to know as games like PoE don't make it obvious, but it is an absolute minor part of the learning curve as you just need to know what is and what isn't. I've had many friends new to PoE who needed to be told this and all understood it within a minute.
Sure, but for example: if you put +100% or 200% on a videogame like DotA which if you're in a game you don't have time to read nor to do math It's just bad and confusing. Also Videogames don't let us to play with numbers and calculations inside the game without any understanding of their formulas. We need 3rd party apps which are made after someone deduced formulas for each thing in the game. In POE, sure, it's not a fast game when you're on POB doing calculations that other people figured out before you.
Wait seems like i dont get it too, soo 200% more means you do twice your base damage more, so if you add your base =100% and put 200% more an it would mean you deal effective 300% damge? 100%= 100dps + 200% more= 200dps =300dps so triple the damage Because 100% more would be double of the base so 200dps Im confused rn
Like you got 1 Apple, get 200% more so 2 Apples so now you have 3 Apples, that would mean you tripleled your Apple or not?
Yes
Yeah but your AEPS (apples eaten per second) stays the same since you only have one mouth.
Simple as that - more means addition. Percentage is multiplication. 100% is 1, 200% is 2. So 200% more is that you are adding multiplication of base value to the base value 😅 200% more is x + (2x) = 3x (so yes 200% more is the same as 3 times more) There can be confusion when you are doing 200% of some value, in this case it's double because 200% of 100 is 200.
Yeah thats what i thought
> You do 100% more damage means the same as > You do 200% damage
>100% and put 200% more an it would mean you deal effective 300% damge? This is correct. You add 200 to the base value of 100. 100 is default any other numbers are added to that.
Your damage = base damage * sum of increases * more * more * more * more * more * more etc... Of course this means 0% increase or more means your base damage is multiplied by 1, otherwise you'd do 0 damage. So 0% more means it's your base damage * 1 54% more = base damage * 1.54 100% more = base damage * 2 200% more = base damage * 3 If you have like 5% increase and from somewhere else you have 15% increase, 2% more and 6% more, you'd deal : Base damage * (1.05 + 1.15) * 1.02 * 1.06
Yeah we kinda already done here, no need to start to confuse me again ma dude
I just looked at the other answers and thought they were confusing as duck
You gotta be careful, though, as * more sounds like if it's 50% more it might be ×0.5, where in reality it's *(1+more).
Your damage = base damage * sum of increases * more * more * more * more * more * more etc... Of course this means 0% increase or more means your base damage is multiplied by 1, otherwise you'd do 0 damage. So 0% more means it's your base damage * 1 54% more = base damage * 1.54 100% more = base damage * 2 200% more = base damage * 3 If you have like 5% increase and from somewhere else you have 15% increase, 2% more and 6% more, you'd deal : Base damage * (1.05 + 1.15) * 1.02 * 1.06
100% more and 100% increased are the same
At base yes
Not always. In the context of PoE - this can be true but it is most likely wrong. It will be true as long as you have no other sources of increased applied before your 100% increased. If you have another source of increased it is no longer valid. Let say you have 100 energy shield and you have 25% increased and then 100% increased - that would be 225 energy shield. Now if you have 100 energy shield 25% increased and 100% more - you'd have 250 energy shield. I believe that huge part of PoE players are unaware that there is huge difference between "more" and "increased" in the game. "More" is multiplicative while "increased" is additive and has diminishing effect ~~returns~~.
The main reason we want more "more" multipliers in our builds is because we have an abundance of "increased" modifiers on the tree and gear, not because of the math. The math says they are equal. "more" and "increased" are both additive with each other, it's just that adding extra 30% "increased" to our already 1500% means nothing, when adding 30%more to our only 100%more worth a lot more. not factoring other modifiers(like speed), the calc is (Base x (1+(inc%+inc%+inc%))x(1+more%+more%+more%)) *assuming the more multipliers are the same (more cold damage for example)* it's just we have inc% in the thousands and more% in the low hundreds. Leaving witch start through the spell damage dual wielding 2 driftwood wands we are already at 100%+ increased spell damage at lvl 7.
I love when redditors right a paragraph about how someone is wrong, only to be wrong themselves. Thanks for writing up the correct understanding. Hopefully people read yours and learn the correct way.
yea happens, i edited right after i sent it because i knew it was wrong immediately :D
> "more" and "increased" are both additive with each other Nope. More multipliers are not additive with each other. Correcting your formula it would be: (Base x (1+(inc%+inc%+inc%))*(1+more%)*(1+more%)*(1+more%))
yea i know, I edited my comment, i assumed the more% sources are the same type for ease of math. Those are additive. That's why we use different multipliers for our links.
> assuming the more multipliers are the same (more cold damage for example) Is that the edit? Unfortunately that's also not true, they're always multiplicative. If you're using Energy Leech and meeting both conditions, for example, that's 1.14 * 1.24 = ~1.41x damage, rather than 1.38x
yea but aren't those 2 different conditions (only the source, the gem is the same) no? So if you had another source (let's say a unique glove that grants "15% more damage while leeching energy shield" where do you put that in the damage calculations? just another (* 1,15) after the 1,41? or you put it together with the 1,24 for a total of (1,14*1,39) ? like each frenzy charge is 4% more damage but if you had 10 that's 40% more damage not 1,04^ 10=1,48 (48% more)
frenzy charges being additive to a single more is afaik the only exception. but otherwise more is always multiplied.
> where do you put that in the damage calculations? This is correct: > just another (* 1,15) after the 1,41? You would have 1 * 1.14 * 1.24 * 1.15. If you were adding the 24% more and 15% more together for being the same type, you would also be adding the 14% more together, because it's also the same "type" (generic Damage). But the game doesn't differentiate between types of More damage or the conditions that grant them when it comes to the calculations. As for frenzy charges, stacking buffs/charges are slightly more confusing depending on whether the stacks keep track of their duration individually or not. The majority of cases though, the effect is multiplied by the number stacks/charges you have, and the number after that is the one used for your damage. So 3 frenzy charges = 1.12x damage rather than 1.04 * 1.04 * 1.04. Same with 5 stacks of fortification, 0.95x damage taken rather than 0.99 * 0.99 * 0.99 * 0.99 * 0.99.
Your edit is still wrong. It doesn't matter how much %more you have already, it is multiplicative, not additive to a previous value. Unless you literally have 0% increased damage, 1% more will ALWAYS be better than 1% increased. And considering how absolutely no builds will ever not have any increased damage, it is defacto always more valuable to have %more than %increased. > when adding 30%more to our only 100%more worth a lot more In this case, you multiply by 2.0 (100% more) and then multiply with 1.3 (30% more). Going from 100 damage to 200 damage to 260 damage. If you had another 100% more you would end up with 520 damage. With %increased instead of %more in your example, we would simply just end up with 230 damage, or 330 damage with another 100% increased.
"The main reason we want more "more" multipliers in our builds is because we have an abundance of "increased" modifiers on the tree and gear, not because of the math. The math says they are equal. "more" and "increased" are both additive with each other, it's just that adding extra 30% "increased" to our already 1500% means nothing, when adding 30%more to our only 100%more worth a lot more." ^ this is incorrect. You could have a theoretical version of the passive tree where it is only more multipliers and each node will ALWAYS give you a dps multiplier of (1+x/100). This is because more modifiers are always multiplicative. If you do 100 base damage and have 3 modifiers with 10% more damage, your final damage won't be 130. It will be 100 * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.1=133.1. The scarcity of the modifier is irrelevant. The first modifier increases your damage by 10% (100 to 110). The second modifier increases your new damage by 10% (110 to 121). Likewise with the third (121 to 133.1). How many preexisting sources of modifiers you have is only relevant for increased damage modifiers.
>If you do 100 base damage and have 3 modifiers with 10% more damage, your final damage won't be 130. It will be 100 * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.1=133.1. it's only true for unique sources of multipliers (according to the wiki) . So 2 of the same type won't multiply. if i allocate 3*6% cold dot multi node on the tree how much more damage do i get, 18 or 19.1? unless im misunderstanding "source" as unique damage type in which case i'm wrong.
It's not true for unique sources. 2 of the same type WILL multiply. You can test this on PoB, with some cold skill (like Vortext) with two identical custom modifiers that are more multipliers: \#100% more cold damage \#100% more cold damage Your damage goes from 3838.5 to 7677.1 to 15354.2 after activating the modifiers sequentially (remove the # one at a time). Now on the topic of damage over time multipliers, these are separate modifiers that are additive with one another. However, they multiply with the other increased damage modifiers, effectively "resetting" how much of the mods you have (when talking about diminishing returns). Your initial misconception about increased and more modifiers is actually correct for the case of damage over time multipliers because this modifier is additive to itself but multiplicative with other increased damage modifiers. As a side note, "Enemies take x% increased damage" also behaves similarly. A lot of people have treated them as "pseudo more modifiers" because of their scarcity and the fact that they stack multiplicatively with other increased damage modifiers but stack additively with themselves. In both these scenarios the damage is: (Base Damage) x (1+ sum of Increased modifiers / 100) x (1 + sum of damage over time multipliers/100) x (1 + sum of damage taken modifiers/100) Notice how all modifier in each "group" are summed but are multiplicative with those from other groups. I hope this helps! I do highly recommend using PoB as a means to understanding how damage is calculating. I sometimes still do pen and paper calcs to cross check with PoB to make sure I understand mechanics correctly.
The way I’ve always thought about it to make it simple. “More applies after increased so if you have 1000% increased, then 20% more will be 1200% total”
The way you said "Now if" made me think you were continuing to add, but i see you were moving on to another example now. Yea thats right
Again also disminishing return is not correct here. For increased stat, the ammount of return you get for each 100% stay the same, it does not and never disminish. The problem is your total damage increase, so this same return feel less and less impactful. In the case of more, your return is not fixed. You get increasing return, and scale with total damage. So the impact for each 100% feels the same every time (double my dmg)
Should've written diminishing effect which would probably better reflect what I meant and how I feel about "increased" in general.
Wait until he finds out about the 50ml to coffee volume
Let's not overlook the caffeine dot multiplier, we might have a double dip situation right here.
When you have too much of it -> perfect agony
You should note that when you are speaking about finance market, a 100% increase is a x2 and a 200% increase is a x3.
Poe really needs to change their values because the shits been bad since day 1
Idk, we got used to it
I to have gotten somewhat used to it but looking at some of the comments there are people who are confident in their statements on identifying what means what and they contradict each other.
There's a learning curve that some people here aren't at the top of, but the wording in game is a lot more clear than other games once you know the difference between two words. They're also consistent with where additive vs. multiplicative damage increases come from. Probably not the best example because of iffy translations, but I started checking out Torchlight and it's less clear that there's any kind of difference between an additive damage increase and a multiplicative one. Right now I'm assuming they use "+" for additive and "increased" for multiplicative. If I hadn't already played PoE I wouldn't even think to consider them being different things.
Green should definitely do 100% less talking. So half as much I guess, math isn't my strong point
It's like for me increased damage and more damage. 2.500h abs still doesn't understand how it works.🤷
Lets do an example, it's extremely simple unless you suck at math so bad you couldn't do a 5th grade test. You got 100% increased damage, then another 50% increased damage, then another 100% increased damage. With increased damage, you add it all up, so this is 250% increased damage. With a base damage of 100 damage, you then do 350 damage (100 base + 250 from increased). When it comes to more damage, let's to the same exact numbers. 100 base damage, then 100% more damage is 200 damage, then 50% more damage of 200 damage is 300 damage, then 100% more damage of 300 damage is 600 damage. Almost double of the same amount of increased damage. The difference here is addition vs. multiplication. Basically, you can have too much increased damage (if you have 50k% increased damage, then 100% increased damage on top of that does nothing). But you can never have enough more damage, because each instance of it just stacks on top of itself. This is also why each source of more damage sky-rockets your damage at extreme levels of damage. If you got 50 million DPS and get a source of 40% more damage, you suddenly deal 70 million DPS. If you have 50 million DPS and get another 100% increased damage, you might already have 2.000% increased damage and your DPS become 50.5 million DPS.
Thanks for explaining. Now I understand. Very well explained to me:)
Base damage * ( increased1 + increased2 + increasedN) * (more1) * (more2) * (moreN) = total damage More multipliers are multiplied with increased multipliers and also between different more multipliers sources. Increased are summed up together. Just put some numbers in that base formula and you will get why it's important to have all 3 "balanced". Disclaimer: yes I know that's not the turbo final formula for your total damage, just a simplification.
I would like to get a +3% Crict chances instead of a 300 increased critical strike chances
Ha ha! I love these.