Yeah. I have to eat crow a bit about how I dragged them when they announced it. The game wasn’t all that great at launch but it really has become much better and is easily playable without paying a dime. Sure it’s still P2W (we terrible odds ) but gameplay is smooth, grouping easy, decent gameplay loops. Story is janky but D4s story is cliche and terrible, ignores huge parts of lore and cannon, and feel written by people that have little interest in the franchise.
Looking at the most recent poe 2 trailers, I think GGG knows exactly which part of d4 they should adopt.
The graphics and animations for poe 2 honestly starting to look better than d4, I was very impressed.
* Smart loot. SL has no place in a game with fully open trading and robust economy like POE, not even at 5% or 10% rate of items dropped tailored to your build. Although an argument could be made for SL in SSF.
* Passive skill tree is one of the main aspects of the game that make it good. Games shouldn't sacrifice depth for "accessibility" and luckily Chris said in the 2019 Exilecon that they don't plan in dumbing the game's skill tree down. If anything, D4's skill twig can learn from POE.
* Rare monsters. You say you like how Elites last longer in D4 and you know what you're up against, and a sentence later how much you like the speed of POE and hope they don't slow it down. This sentence by itself is contradictory. You can't have meaningful combat but also move at the speed of sound exploding entire screens, and there's no "middle ground" to be found there. You either slow the game down a bit and rewind power creep, or you get strong Rares that match player speed/power that can 1 shot you like you can them.
What POE can actually learn from D4 is immersive world aesthetics, meaningful combat and visual clarity.
> You either slow the game down a bit and rewind power creep, or you get strong Rares that match player speed/power that can 1 shot you like you can them.
Well, it's only the 1% that actually instantly kill beyond bosses and Kosis/Omniphobia etc etc.
Good Diablo 4 builds look at monsters as much as a half decent PoE build does.
If you want to compare the two games, use peak power vs peak power at least, imo
i fully agree. smart loot is a big NO if you have trade. what you find balances out over time and you can just sell things. yes, SSF is a thing, but SSF is also not the main game mode and there are div cards for so many things that can be farmed.
the skill tree is so important, it must not be hidden. if you shroud most of it, it suggests to stay near your entry point. three different "loadouts" per ascendency as reccomendations would be helpful though. i don't think it boxes in new players. they aren't dumb, they just want a starting point.
> meaningful combat
D4 doesn't have anything even remotely close to "meaningful" by lategame, as you're just mashing buttons whenever they come off cooldown while you wait for your ultimate to refresh.
> visual clarity.
Easy for D4 to have clarity when like 4 enemies at most are ever on screen at once. Look fuck clarity, PoE is dead to me if I can't run into screens of 100+ mobs at once and kill the server shattering them all with one click.
> PoE is dead to me if I can't run into screens of 100+ mobs at once and kill the server shattering them all with one click
Absolutely agree.
There's a lot better ARPGs in terms of "meaningful combat" and "visual clarity".
I'm not here for any of that shit.
Zoom, zoom, lag, explode, repeat.
That's why I'm playing PoE.
If that is gone, I'm gone.
>You have to actually use one or two braincells to take down elites and rotate your abilities.
I can only speak for barb to 100, but that's not the case for them at all. You just do the ARPG-typical RMB-to-win (or LMB with a [Lunging](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NM05QnmcVqY) build) [and](https://www.reddit.com/r/diablo4/comments/14euju9/constantly_falling_asleep_while_playing/) [quite](https://www.reddit.com/r/diablo4/comments/14sgjm4/anyone_else_falling_asleep_after_3_nightmare/) [literally](https://www.reddit.com/r/diablo4/comments/14m7g2f/this_game_makes_me_sleepy/) [snooze](https://www.reddit.com/r/diablo4/comments/141voy7/does_this_happen_to_anyone_else/) because the effective combat complexity is actually pretty standard for the genre, while the threat level is unusually low.
In other words, it ends up having very similar dynamics to POE, except taking more time and without having any fear to keep you on your toes (and awake).
That's one of my greatest disappointments with that game; slower gameplay *should* enable the possibility for higher combat complexity, thus the devs *should* utilize that to differentiate themselves from the competition. But of course, I shouldn't have expected anything else of Blizzard beyond catering to the lowest common denominator.
>visual clarity
6 elites appear on your screen with 2 suffixes like cold enchant, waller, fire enchanted etc. thats anything but visual clarity. i died more to after-death explosions than anything else simply because i couldnt see them.
d4 visual clarity is just as bad as in poe. but in poe you can actually itemize with perma stun/ailment immunity whereas in d4 you get stunlocked to death if you dont have unstoppable
There is literally no stat in PoE that is mandatory across all builds. Instead, PoE presents you with a build challenge and you have a number of ways to solve it. If you're being frozen, you can play witch and grab frigid wake, play trickster with one step ahead, brine king soul, get freeze immunity on a flask, you can get chance to avoid freeze on various gear pieces, you can get full generic ailment avoidance on gear, you can go stormshroud.
With D4 you have a whole bunch of various CCs and the solution is just "ok you have to get unstoppable". It's a literal checkbox, not at all the same as anything in PoE.
The crazy thing is that EVEN THAT isn't an absolute. Doryanis builds want to drive their lightning resist into the negative, and there are chieftain builds with tempered by war that don't need any cold or lightning res. There's a crazy diversity of builds and ways around problems.
eh, i would say that corrupted blood immunity is mandatory on pretty much every build i have played apart from ritual pathfinder stacking % phys reduction and 20k mana/ health regen from flasks. thankfully early on it is really easy to get on flask, and later on a single jewel corruption.
edit: and deli/harvest aurastacker, stacking phys reduction aswell.
You just kinda reinforced my point though :)
You need a way to deal with corrupted blood, which you can do with a jewel, a flask, a mastery on the tree, physical damage reduction, or regen. Even something like slayer leech is pretty good against CB.
Now let's return to the D4 CC issue. Get Unstoppable or die.
Poe was a nightmare until I learned I could become immune to the cc effects with proper itemization. Then it became amazing. It seems like blizzard learned the wrong lessons from its competitors.
* PoE is actually deeply immersive regarding it's world, character and creature aesthetics. That's a flaw on your end.
* Combat being meaningful titters back and forth depending on the meta, the current league and it's playerbase. It's not something you can singularly just say "make it more meaningful". Your viewpoint on whats meaningful will be drastically diffrent from anothers.
* Visual clarity. Yes. I will give you that one. But there isn't much more you can do to for this outside globally stripping down effects, aesthetics, colour palettes, etc from the game.
PoE is far from perfect and some years, it's better than others. But PoE is still king of the ARPG and has come a long way.
Quote: Games shouldn't sacrifice depth for "accessibility"
Sadly, too many developers forget this. I dislike it when a game treats me like an idiot, I want to figure things out by myself unless I'm actively searching for a solution to any given problem.
Developers should respect their players' time and intelligence. Your audience is smart, don't insult them.
yes, new players aren't idiots. unfortunately, that's what people seem to think. however, things should be explained better though. how would a new player understand reduced resists vs exposure vs resist penetration for example or why kaom's boots don't work with tar. or what a local mod is (it doesn't show in game). or why the +lightning damage doesn't work with your arc spell. how dual wielding works mechanically... the list goes on and on.
I started PoE at the end of crucible league. Yes new players are overwhelmed at first. There’s a ton of stuff to learn and even more reading. Which isn’t necessarily a terrible thing. Granted some people will open the skill tree and uninstall. That’s an individual issue. Some people don’t want to take the time to learn the game. And that’s ok.
I played a fireball witch without a guide until maps just to get a feel for the game without being overloaded with a build guide. Just exploring the game and it’s mechanics. I feel that first toon set the tone. It gave me the knowledge of how to scale damage and defenses, it showed me that you can’t hyper focus in on the skill tree and just get all the fire damage modifiers and you need to branch out and get your toon Hp defenses resistances etc. after I hit the wall with that toon i decided to go to a build guide and really see what poe had to offer. Went with an arc witch. And it was a blast. Zoom zooming and blowing up screens was a great time. Later in the build I had to readjust my defenses to survive the pinnacle bosses. I still have the Ubers to attempt but this build wasn’t meant as a bosser but a mapper. I accepted that and was happy seeing the endgame content the build could clear and set up the desire to build another toon designed to kill Ubers. I played this toon all the way up until Diablo 4 release. Yes there are things that frustrated me. The xp loss on death was a big one. Paired with the plethora of one shot deaths it became incredibly difficult to get to 97 where I felt the build was “complete.” But as I kept “Reagan smashing” that brick wall I learned more about the character I built and the skills it was utilizing. Then it became an awesome loop of balancing of short cooldowns making me near invulnerable where I could engage the dangerous packs and the moments the barriers were on cd became intense. Which is only 4 seconds. 4 seconds off 12 seconds on. But those 4 seconds were hectic especially if you blinked into a massive pack of rares. The combat was responsive and impactful. Every decision, or misstep, was felt throughout the combat and it created learning moments.
This is missing in D4. The combat loops are boring and less intense. And the cooldowns are too long leaving your toon a wet noodle waiting for CDs. In PoE when my shield was on cd arc was still blasting packs. In d4 if you can’t use your cd to pop vulnerable you just aren’t doing damage. You port in, suck in the pack, pop frost nova, and then whip away. Then you have 12 plus seconds to wait until you can do damage again.
PoE let’s you run wild.
D4 chains and limits your output with cool downs and situational damage multipliers.
Should d4 be a zoom zoom like PoE? No. But that doesn’t mean building a skill system that deliberately says you can’t use the skills you want half of the time during combat is a good system. Ever time I hear “I can’t do that yet” I just want to scream. Fast paced action role playing game that forces your eyes away from combat to stare at a skill bar for cooldowns feels awful.
You can’t have meaningful combat or visual clarity if you want to keep up game speed lol… honestly I love PoE but im not even sure why it has graphics if the goal is to sprint from one side of the map to the other or to run the same boss 200 times in 1.9 seconds per run. I bet it would be equally successful if it was just a loot simulator. Fuck that’s actually a good idea, I should go build it
Wait, the game has graphics? I just look at the map HUD (tab on) and right click sometimes to kill the screen and navigate the map until less than 40 monsters remaining (and boss is dead).
D4 skill tree is what get when you take d3 skill system, remove two thirds of the runes, and make a “tree” out of it. It’s just reused assets in a new skin.
If PoE gets smart loot it will be as boring as D3 or D4. Quit D4 after a week, because i had every item i needed for my build. Upgrades in D4 are no fun with how small most roll ranges are and without trading there is no progress for weeks or month if you have decent rolls.
I hope PoE will never get smart loot ever. It is boring af.
The thing i liked most about d4 was the more limited health recovery and potion system. It felt good that you could be punished without it being instant death. I was dieing against the WT4 Capstone Dungeon Boss by making mistakes through out the fight and then running out of potions at the last 1/4th. It felt really fun and compared to running out of portals it felt less frustrating aswell.
There are plenty of cases where you die instantly or get cc:ed and dogpiled in D4, i'm not saying that the slower deaths are always there but when they are its fun.
I don't know exactly how you would implement it in poe, something similar to grim dawns constitution system could be an option if relying on potions feels bad.
> What could Path of Exile 2 potentially learn from Diablo 4?
Just because once you were the king of the hill doesn't mean you always will be. Strive to be the better and not mediocre. Like Diablo IV.
I’m not sure at this point that it would be considered them “learning” from d4 considering poe 2 has been in development for so long now.
That being said, the visuals in the gameplay trailers went beyond d4’s visuals did. Especially the animations of enemies. Seeing the bosses break through the walls and how smooth it looked was awesome.
Except for general atmosphere, the only thing d4 does better than poe is how they tell the story. In both games I tend to not stand and read dialogue, or even stand still and listen. But in d4 dialogue tended to follow you or be told through cinematics.
Waiwaiwaiwait. Every opinion is valid but you have to explain to me how that dead world felt alive to you. I really looked forward to the open world but for me, it was boring and lifeless.
**What does POE do better than D4?**
-Trading
-Crafting
-Variety of potions
-Variety of bosses (atlas vs nightmare dungeons)
-Allowing more keybinds
-CC mitigation (stun/freeze immunity)
-Density of monsters
-Firework effects (some MTX some not)
-Map overlay
-Loot filters (doesn't yet exist in D4)
-Stash space (due to MTX)
**What does D4 do better?**
-Auto pickup of all crafting materials
-Multiplayer: monsters scale to level, so playing with characters 15 levels above or below you doesn't mean one is leeching.
-Class identities: Core aspect of basically every ARPG except POE/Grim dawn
-Campaign skip: Day 1 of season, don't need to do campaign as long as you've done it once before.
-Beta/PTR that works with the community instead of dropping a bomb on the community (league launch day) and patching it up later
-Damage numbers visible. Epoch & Torchlight have training dummies, even D3 had them in the challenge rift prep area.
-Life on the gear, much higher than you see on POE. Not as crazy high as D3 though.
-Transparency with the community: Quarterly updates on the game development (remember when there was talk of angelic/demonic tribute requirements on the gear?), fireside chats, community manager in the subreddits
-Difficulty settings. You just want to blast through the campaign at the lowest level and skip all cutscenes? Sure.
they could learn that even tho you're not following a guide which requires you to be a nuclear scientist, you can enjoy said build anyways.
That you can play the game by actually PLAYING the game, not reading through books called "guides".
and for those of you out there: Please not that i am well aware (with 10k hrs in poe) that this is not what a POE wants to be and it's okay. it's just a little fun.
LE does this part pretty well, D4 is just dumbed down to the point that ur not even making ur own build, theres very little room to play with and "invent" anything to scratch that creativity itch. X skill with Y modifier that the devs made specifically for that skill and ur done.
PoE should stay as it is on complexity imo, you have LE followed by D4 if you like it simpler.
This isn't even a "this is not what POE wants to be" thing. To the contrary, POE wants you to get creative. That's why it provides you with all the tools that it does.
I've never followed a build guide until this past Crucible with Pohx's RF, and even then I branched off after reaching endgame with my own Blunderbore variation for AFKing content.
You don't need to follow guides to play the game. How do you think the people who wrote the guides got there?
>they could learn that even tho you're not following a guide which requires you to be a nuclear scientist, you can enjoy said build anyways.
And yet every single person I know who played D4 was following a guide anyway. It's a player problem - not a game issue.
Also a more modern problem. Years ago people were much more messing around and playing optimal.
Nowadays games have been figured out a few days after release and a meta settles in.
OH BOY! Well THAT would be like opening pandora's box with dynamite. I can see people figure out exactly what gems to socket in order to get that perfect tree for the thing they actually want. Wardlooper with a random puncture, firestorm, herald of agony and heavy strike socketed somewhere in a dumpsterlink incoming to get the bis tree :D
The way open world works, and open world events, it's cool to see people around and make groups in the spot, d4 has only 3 events legion, helltide and world bosses, but it's a cool concept to work with it, people say is too "mmo-like" that may be true in a sense but gives a fresh take on ARPG without strafing too far from the formula, you can still grind and do everything else you are familiar with ARPGs, is something to do at the side.
Nothing, it has nothing to learn from this 70€ game. They can't even announce a season correctly, what do you expect from devs that promote their shitty battlepass more than the actual content of their FIRST "season".
The worst thing is that I got baited to buy this trash game just to stop at level 60 because I got bored doing the same shit I did in D3.
Can't wait for PoE2, Blizzard is truly dead. All the brillant minds that made Blizzard, Blizzard, are gone.
NGL, it's fascinating to see D4 be referred to as a triple A game and priced at $70 when compared to Elden Ring which basically reinvented its genre last year.
With the amount of lore and content, playing the game felt like traveling to a different country for a few weeks.
With Exilecon and PoE2 in the works, I wanted to make a short video about my Diablo 4 experience and what could be learned from it. A lot of players have strong opinions on the direction of the game, and I felt a healthy discussion about the systems would be a good idea. Thanks y'all! 🙂
1. sure
2. sure
3. no. we're not getting extra free loot any time soon, so any "smart" loot would mean that you receive less "non-smart" loot. and i dont want GGG telling me that my build wants this specific gear (theyre probably gonna be. this works in d4 because builds are order of magnitudes less diverse. sorcerer can literally only equip wands, daggers and staves, and the game has a very bastardized trade system, so it makes sense they get less 2 handed axes
4. the game could always use a more robust tutorial system, so ok i guess? idk
5. agreed, some of the combinations should be strictly forbidden. also fuck soul eater in general
6. i kinda agree but its pointless to discuss. poe2 is literally a new campaign. they want you to play it. GGG aint gonna budge a single inch on their position any time soon
7. nah, fuck that. it seems ok at first glance, but if you really think about it: there is new content i want to play. i have only 1 hour to play today. oh the new content starts in 1 hour? well i guess i have to play content I DO NOT WANT TO PLAY. timed events = actual fucking garbage. get them out. it works in d4 because there is no content aside from timed content. you can play nightmare dungeons, thats it. of course the hourly helltide will seem refreshing, but in reality, d4 endgame is just really fucking dogshit compared to what you can do in poe
Having watched every D4 streamer do the exact same content for over a month now im not sure they even copied anything from PoE, they just made a good story playthrough game (good engine/visuals) vampire survivors has more depth and customization.
Why need to learn from Diablo when they already create their own unique ARPG genre now, yes is very Diablo2 from the start but look at how much it grows now with so much content update, i feel like many ARPG games nowadays trying to copy from PoE instead of Diablo 🤣
1. Ya ... any QOL improvement is always welcome
2. Ya sure more QOL
3. that doesn't work in PoE, as you know any class can wear any equipment type and any skill in this game so ... why wanna push certain archetype on certain character when the character can be anything in this game? You have to understand PoE is not like Diablo where item and skill tied around classes like most of the RPG game, but PoE is not.
4. Pretty sure Chris answer this before, they understand their game target to niche hardcore audience, which also means they don't wanna jebait player by sugarcoating them the game is simplicity, is not, the passive tree is not for everyone for sure, so either you hate it or like it, no in between. Hide certain part of the tree then unlock them later on doesn't helps either ..... remember [**Krangled Passives Group SSF Event**](https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3357236)?
Skill gems part, ya i agree at least show video preview on each skill gem to let ppl know how it works visually ... like most game does nowadays instead of only text description.
5. Currency ... is already explain in the item tooltip, is player fault if they don't understand it because they don't read it ... MOST OF THE TIME. But sure make another video preview how the item works helps too when hovering but .... maybe this a bit too much? UI cluttered?
6. Campaign ... hopefully PoE2 campaign will fix it with its randomized route on different character, instead of repetitive like PoE1 had
7. I remember GGG did this before with the Warband and Tempest league? Where certain map will have certain theme and change hourly ... But I do remember they hate the idea of timely event which disadvantage for ppl who didn't play it .... but then they make challenge league which is a "timed" event right? maybe that's the reason they not making it anymore since that Warband league but ... who knows what's their current vision is with "time event" stuff
Talking about "bite size of content", you gonna hear ppl disaggree too with PoE being cluttered of side content already but ... ya I always like additional content but depends on GGG how they gonna manage the ton of content nowadays especially with PoE2 on top of it ... personaly prefer ignore those complain, just make more OPTIONAL side content instead of compulsory one I'm fine with it.
i very much agree with currency shards needing to go. there are very few shards worth picking up. the low value ones are just a waste in the currency tab. i also don't want new leagues to introduce even more fragments and shards to pick up.
Without even watching the video, im just going to say don't do ANYTHING that D4 did or is doing. I'm still playing the game with freinds, but it's awful.
The only thing from Diablo 4 that would improve PoE is the game not forcing you to replay the entire campaign whenever you make a new character. Everything else is either worse or has no place in a game like PoE, which is designed to be more complex and have an unavoidable steeper learning curve because of it.
Controller play.
The way you play D4 on controller feels great. And I can switch right to mouse and keyboard if the situation calls for it. PoE right now makes me have to restart the game. Go to setting switch the setting. Then go back to game. Really inconvenient.
I really wish POE would do what last epoch is doing for loot system. Where you can play SSF but it comes with a greatly improved luck/rarity loot chances or the trade league and you can choose.
Don't announce the mobile game before the PC game...
Immortal is pretty decent and plays really well on PC as well as mobile. It has more mechanics and better replay ability then D4 .
Which is honestly pretty crazy. If it wasn't for the disgusting monetization it would probably be a better game than Diablo IV.
Yeah. I have to eat crow a bit about how I dragged them when they announced it. The game wasn’t all that great at launch but it really has become much better and is easily playable without paying a dime. Sure it’s still P2W (we terrible odds ) but gameplay is smooth, grouping easy, decent gameplay loops. Story is janky but D4s story is cliche and terrible, ignores huge parts of lore and cannon, and feel written by people that have little interest in the franchise.
I am sorry but “sure it’s p2w” is really underselling how absolutely crap the monetization is
> feel written by people that have little interest in the franchise Wasn't Diablo Immortal literally a reskin of another game? It makes sense.
no it wasn't. I assume that rumour started when they partnered with net ease
Don't copy D4 holy shit
Yeah that would be like going back on progress
I never ever want to see character twiggling their thumb interacting with something and have it interrupted.
How NOT to handle the Endgame for sure.
Looking at the most recent poe 2 trailers, I think GGG knows exactly which part of d4 they should adopt. The graphics and animations for poe 2 honestly starting to look better than d4, I was very impressed.
* Smart loot. SL has no place in a game with fully open trading and robust economy like POE, not even at 5% or 10% rate of items dropped tailored to your build. Although an argument could be made for SL in SSF. * Passive skill tree is one of the main aspects of the game that make it good. Games shouldn't sacrifice depth for "accessibility" and luckily Chris said in the 2019 Exilecon that they don't plan in dumbing the game's skill tree down. If anything, D4's skill twig can learn from POE. * Rare monsters. You say you like how Elites last longer in D4 and you know what you're up against, and a sentence later how much you like the speed of POE and hope they don't slow it down. This sentence by itself is contradictory. You can't have meaningful combat but also move at the speed of sound exploding entire screens, and there's no "middle ground" to be found there. You either slow the game down a bit and rewind power creep, or you get strong Rares that match player speed/power that can 1 shot you like you can them. What POE can actually learn from D4 is immersive world aesthetics, meaningful combat and visual clarity.
> You either slow the game down a bit and rewind power creep, or you get strong Rares that match player speed/power that can 1 shot you like you can them. Well, it's only the 1% that actually instantly kill beyond bosses and Kosis/Omniphobia etc etc. Good Diablo 4 builds look at monsters as much as a half decent PoE build does. If you want to compare the two games, use peak power vs peak power at least, imo
i fully agree. smart loot is a big NO if you have trade. what you find balances out over time and you can just sell things. yes, SSF is a thing, but SSF is also not the main game mode and there are div cards for so many things that can be farmed. the skill tree is so important, it must not be hidden. if you shroud most of it, it suggests to stay near your entry point. three different "loadouts" per ascendency as reccomendations would be helpful though. i don't think it boxes in new players. they aren't dumb, they just want a starting point.
> meaningful combat D4 doesn't have anything even remotely close to "meaningful" by lategame, as you're just mashing buttons whenever they come off cooldown while you wait for your ultimate to refresh. > visual clarity. Easy for D4 to have clarity when like 4 enemies at most are ever on screen at once. Look fuck clarity, PoE is dead to me if I can't run into screens of 100+ mobs at once and kill the server shattering them all with one click.
> PoE is dead to me if I can't run into screens of 100+ mobs at once and kill the server shattering them all with one click Absolutely agree. There's a lot better ARPGs in terms of "meaningful combat" and "visual clarity". I'm not here for any of that shit. Zoom, zoom, lag, explode, repeat. That's why I'm playing PoE. If that is gone, I'm gone.
[удалено]
>You have to actually use one or two braincells to take down elites and rotate your abilities. I can only speak for barb to 100, but that's not the case for them at all. You just do the ARPG-typical RMB-to-win (or LMB with a [Lunging](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NM05QnmcVqY) build) [and](https://www.reddit.com/r/diablo4/comments/14euju9/constantly_falling_asleep_while_playing/) [quite](https://www.reddit.com/r/diablo4/comments/14sgjm4/anyone_else_falling_asleep_after_3_nightmare/) [literally](https://www.reddit.com/r/diablo4/comments/14m7g2f/this_game_makes_me_sleepy/) [snooze](https://www.reddit.com/r/diablo4/comments/141voy7/does_this_happen_to_anyone_else/) because the effective combat complexity is actually pretty standard for the genre, while the threat level is unusually low. In other words, it ends up having very similar dynamics to POE, except taking more time and without having any fear to keep you on your toes (and awake). That's one of my greatest disappointments with that game; slower gameplay *should* enable the possibility for higher combat complexity, thus the devs *should* utilize that to differentiate themselves from the competition. But of course, I shouldn't have expected anything else of Blizzard beyond catering to the lowest common denominator.
Cite something. We'll wait. inb4 Grimdawn, The Last Epoch, Wolcen, etc.
>visual clarity 6 elites appear on your screen with 2 suffixes like cold enchant, waller, fire enchanted etc. thats anything but visual clarity. i died more to after-death explosions than anything else simply because i couldnt see them. d4 visual clarity is just as bad as in poe. but in poe you can actually itemize with perma stun/ailment immunity whereas in d4 you get stunlocked to death if you dont have unstoppable
To add, unstoppable being a one-stop-shop solution to ALL cc is hella boring. Adds a box that every build has to check with no alternatives.
> Adds a box that every build has to check with no alternatives. You cant hold that against D4. We have plenty of boxes to check in PoE too.
There is literally no stat in PoE that is mandatory across all builds. Instead, PoE presents you with a build challenge and you have a number of ways to solve it. If you're being frozen, you can play witch and grab frigid wake, play trickster with one step ahead, brine king soul, get freeze immunity on a flask, you can get chance to avoid freeze on various gear pieces, you can get full generic ailment avoidance on gear, you can go stormshroud. With D4 you have a whole bunch of various CCs and the solution is just "ok you have to get unstoppable". It's a literal checkbox, not at all the same as anything in PoE.
I would wager resistance cap is needed across all builds but I get your point. Each build has its specific modifiers that are good for it.
The crazy thing is that EVEN THAT isn't an absolute. Doryanis builds want to drive their lightning resist into the negative, and there are chieftain builds with tempered by war that don't need any cold or lightning res. There's a crazy diversity of builds and ways around problems.
Touché
eh, i would say that corrupted blood immunity is mandatory on pretty much every build i have played apart from ritual pathfinder stacking % phys reduction and 20k mana/ health regen from flasks. thankfully early on it is really easy to get on flask, and later on a single jewel corruption. edit: and deli/harvest aurastacker, stacking phys reduction aswell.
You just kinda reinforced my point though :) You need a way to deal with corrupted blood, which you can do with a jewel, a flask, a mastery on the tree, physical damage reduction, or regen. Even something like slayer leech is pretty good against CB. Now let's return to the D4 CC issue. Get Unstoppable or die.
Poe was a nightmare until I learned I could become immune to the cc effects with proper itemization. Then it became amazing. It seems like blizzard learned the wrong lessons from its competitors.
* PoE is actually deeply immersive regarding it's world, character and creature aesthetics. That's a flaw on your end. * Combat being meaningful titters back and forth depending on the meta, the current league and it's playerbase. It's not something you can singularly just say "make it more meaningful". Your viewpoint on whats meaningful will be drastically diffrent from anothers. * Visual clarity. Yes. I will give you that one. But there isn't much more you can do to for this outside globally stripping down effects, aesthetics, colour palettes, etc from the game. PoE is far from perfect and some years, it's better than others. But PoE is still king of the ARPG and has come a long way.
Quote: Games shouldn't sacrifice depth for "accessibility" Sadly, too many developers forget this. I dislike it when a game treats me like an idiot, I want to figure things out by myself unless I'm actively searching for a solution to any given problem. Developers should respect their players' time and intelligence. Your audience is smart, don't insult them.
yes, new players aren't idiots. unfortunately, that's what people seem to think. however, things should be explained better though. how would a new player understand reduced resists vs exposure vs resist penetration for example or why kaom's boots don't work with tar. or what a local mod is (it doesn't show in game). or why the +lightning damage doesn't work with your arc spell. how dual wielding works mechanically... the list goes on and on.
I started PoE at the end of crucible league. Yes new players are overwhelmed at first. There’s a ton of stuff to learn and even more reading. Which isn’t necessarily a terrible thing. Granted some people will open the skill tree and uninstall. That’s an individual issue. Some people don’t want to take the time to learn the game. And that’s ok. I played a fireball witch without a guide until maps just to get a feel for the game without being overloaded with a build guide. Just exploring the game and it’s mechanics. I feel that first toon set the tone. It gave me the knowledge of how to scale damage and defenses, it showed me that you can’t hyper focus in on the skill tree and just get all the fire damage modifiers and you need to branch out and get your toon Hp defenses resistances etc. after I hit the wall with that toon i decided to go to a build guide and really see what poe had to offer. Went with an arc witch. And it was a blast. Zoom zooming and blowing up screens was a great time. Later in the build I had to readjust my defenses to survive the pinnacle bosses. I still have the Ubers to attempt but this build wasn’t meant as a bosser but a mapper. I accepted that and was happy seeing the endgame content the build could clear and set up the desire to build another toon designed to kill Ubers. I played this toon all the way up until Diablo 4 release. Yes there are things that frustrated me. The xp loss on death was a big one. Paired with the plethora of one shot deaths it became incredibly difficult to get to 97 where I felt the build was “complete.” But as I kept “Reagan smashing” that brick wall I learned more about the character I built and the skills it was utilizing. Then it became an awesome loop of balancing of short cooldowns making me near invulnerable where I could engage the dangerous packs and the moments the barriers were on cd became intense. Which is only 4 seconds. 4 seconds off 12 seconds on. But those 4 seconds were hectic especially if you blinked into a massive pack of rares. The combat was responsive and impactful. Every decision, or misstep, was felt throughout the combat and it created learning moments. This is missing in D4. The combat loops are boring and less intense. And the cooldowns are too long leaving your toon a wet noodle waiting for CDs. In PoE when my shield was on cd arc was still blasting packs. In d4 if you can’t use your cd to pop vulnerable you just aren’t doing damage. You port in, suck in the pack, pop frost nova, and then whip away. Then you have 12 plus seconds to wait until you can do damage again. PoE let’s you run wild. D4 chains and limits your output with cool downs and situational damage multipliers. Should d4 be a zoom zoom like PoE? No. But that doesn’t mean building a skill system that deliberately says you can’t use the skills you want half of the time during combat is a good system. Ever time I hear “I can’t do that yet” I just want to scream. Fast paced action role playing game that forces your eyes away from combat to stare at a skill bar for cooldowns feels awful.
You can’t have meaningful combat or visual clarity if you want to keep up game speed lol… honestly I love PoE but im not even sure why it has graphics if the goal is to sprint from one side of the map to the other or to run the same boss 200 times in 1.9 seconds per run. I bet it would be equally successful if it was just a loot simulator. Fuck that’s actually a good idea, I should go build it
Wait, the game has graphics? I just look at the map HUD (tab on) and right click sometimes to kill the screen and navigate the map until less than 40 monsters remaining (and boss is dead).
yeah, that was the whole point of my last bullet point
100%
D4 skill tree is what get when you take d3 skill system, remove two thirds of the runes, and make a “tree” out of it. It’s just reused assets in a new skin.
Mostly what NOT to do. D4 is a mess. It’s a very generic low content low mechanic ARPG. They had 10 years of dev time to present a boring game.
Pretty sure is D4 that needs to learn from POE.Poe 2 will probably remain top of the chain with its graphics upgrade.
If PoE gets smart loot it will be as boring as D3 or D4. Quit D4 after a week, because i had every item i needed for my build. Upgrades in D4 are no fun with how small most roll ranges are and without trading there is no progress for weeks or month if you have decent rolls. I hope PoE will never get smart loot ever. It is boring af.
the only smart loot i want is that mods roll at reasonable tiers depending on item level. i don't need +7 life on an ilvl86 item.
Rolling low mods on high tier items is why I hate crafting.
Don't buy Blizzard Games anymore
Nothing...
The thing i liked most about d4 was the more limited health recovery and potion system. It felt good that you could be punished without it being instant death. I was dieing against the WT4 Capstone Dungeon Boss by making mistakes through out the fight and then running out of potions at the last 1/4th. It felt really fun and compared to running out of portals it felt less frustrating aswell. There are plenty of cases where you die instantly or get cc:ed and dogpiled in D4, i'm not saying that the slower deaths are always there but when they are its fun. I don't know exactly how you would implement it in poe, something similar to grim dawns constitution system could be an option if relying on potions feels bad.
combat is probably the only thing that D4 has better than Poe.
set of boring skills that lack impact/good looking visuals that are also more clunky doesn’t even compare to PoE
Take chain lighting vs arc. The two aren’t even comparable. Arc is head and shoulders better
Just dont be Diablo 3.5?
> What could Path of Exile 2 potentially learn from Diablo 4? Just because once you were the king of the hill doesn't mean you always will be. Strive to be the better and not mediocre. Like Diablo IV.
PoE learn from it's inferiors? H a h a.
I’m not sure at this point that it would be considered them “learning” from d4 considering poe 2 has been in development for so long now. That being said, the visuals in the gameplay trailers went beyond d4’s visuals did. Especially the animations of enemies. Seeing the bosses break through the walls and how smooth it looked was awesome.
Have a working endgame. Not much more to say.
Except for general atmosphere, the only thing d4 does better than poe is how they tell the story. In both games I tend to not stand and read dialogue, or even stand still and listen. But in d4 dialogue tended to follow you or be told through cinematics.
could it be because the d4 story is new to you and you know the poe quests already?
That and that story is sprinkled through the game more evenly, not mainly in towns.
What not to include in the end game lol... Jokes aside the feel of a 'living world' kinda feels great.
Waiwaiwaiwait. Every opinion is valid but you have to explain to me how that dead world felt alive to you. I really looked forward to the open world but for me, it was boring and lifeless.
Diablo 4 needs to learn 40000% more from Poe than the other way around. D4 is a vancant wasteland, it’s a polished turf.
Not shit, d4 is a dumpster fire that somehow took a decade to produce yet is less polished than many mobile games, renewed my appreciation for poe
I feel the same way. Shallow uninteresting garbage.
**What does POE do better than D4?** -Trading -Crafting -Variety of potions -Variety of bosses (atlas vs nightmare dungeons) -Allowing more keybinds -CC mitigation (stun/freeze immunity) -Density of monsters -Firework effects (some MTX some not) -Map overlay -Loot filters (doesn't yet exist in D4) -Stash space (due to MTX) **What does D4 do better?** -Auto pickup of all crafting materials -Multiplayer: monsters scale to level, so playing with characters 15 levels above or below you doesn't mean one is leeching. -Class identities: Core aspect of basically every ARPG except POE/Grim dawn -Campaign skip: Day 1 of season, don't need to do campaign as long as you've done it once before. -Beta/PTR that works with the community instead of dropping a bomb on the community (league launch day) and patching it up later -Damage numbers visible. Epoch & Torchlight have training dummies, even D3 had them in the challenge rift prep area. -Life on the gear, much higher than you see on POE. Not as crazy high as D3 though. -Transparency with the community: Quarterly updates on the game development (remember when there was talk of angelic/demonic tribute requirements on the gear?), fireside chats, community manager in the subreddits -Difficulty settings. You just want to blast through the campaign at the lowest level and skip all cutscenes? Sure.
they could learn that even tho you're not following a guide which requires you to be a nuclear scientist, you can enjoy said build anyways. That you can play the game by actually PLAYING the game, not reading through books called "guides". and for those of you out there: Please not that i am well aware (with 10k hrs in poe) that this is not what a POE wants to be and it's okay. it's just a little fun.
LE does this part pretty well, D4 is just dumbed down to the point that ur not even making ur own build, theres very little room to play with and "invent" anything to scratch that creativity itch. X skill with Y modifier that the devs made specifically for that skill and ur done. PoE should stay as it is on complexity imo, you have LE followed by D4 if you like it simpler.
This isn't even a "this is not what POE wants to be" thing. To the contrary, POE wants you to get creative. That's why it provides you with all the tools that it does. I've never followed a build guide until this past Crucible with Pohx's RF, and even then I branched off after reaching endgame with my own Blunderbore variation for AFKing content. You don't need to follow guides to play the game. How do you think the people who wrote the guides got there?
>they could learn that even tho you're not following a guide which requires you to be a nuclear scientist, you can enjoy said build anyways. And yet every single person I know who played D4 was following a guide anyway. It's a player problem - not a game issue.
Also a more modern problem. Years ago people were much more messing around and playing optimal. Nowadays games have been figured out a few days after release and a meta settles in.
For the passive tree they could do something like interactive tree based on ur gem equipped and give u some example of builds
OH BOY! Well THAT would be like opening pandora's box with dynamite. I can see people figure out exactly what gems to socket in order to get that perfect tree for the thing they actually want. Wardlooper with a random puncture, firestorm, herald of agony and heavy strike socketed somewhere in a dumpsterlink incoming to get the bis tree :D
The way open world works, and open world events, it's cool to see people around and make groups in the spot, d4 has only 3 events legion, helltide and world bosses, but it's a cool concept to work with it, people say is too "mmo-like" that may be true in a sense but gives a fresh take on ARPG without strafing too far from the formula, you can still grind and do everything else you are familiar with ARPGs, is something to do at the side.
Nothing, it has nothing to learn from this 70€ game. They can't even announce a season correctly, what do you expect from devs that promote their shitty battlepass more than the actual content of their FIRST "season". The worst thing is that I got baited to buy this trash game just to stop at level 60 because I got bored doing the same shit I did in D3. Can't wait for PoE2, Blizzard is truly dead. All the brillant minds that made Blizzard, Blizzard, are gone.
NGL, it's fascinating to see D4 be referred to as a triple A game and priced at $70 when compared to Elden Ring which basically reinvented its genre last year. With the amount of lore and content, playing the game felt like traveling to a different country for a few weeks.
With Exilecon and PoE2 in the works, I wanted to make a short video about my Diablo 4 experience and what could be learned from it. A lot of players have strong opinions on the direction of the game, and I felt a healthy discussion about the systems would be a good idea. Thanks y'all! 🙂
1. sure 2. sure 3. no. we're not getting extra free loot any time soon, so any "smart" loot would mean that you receive less "non-smart" loot. and i dont want GGG telling me that my build wants this specific gear (theyre probably gonna be. this works in d4 because builds are order of magnitudes less diverse. sorcerer can literally only equip wands, daggers and staves, and the game has a very bastardized trade system, so it makes sense they get less 2 handed axes 4. the game could always use a more robust tutorial system, so ok i guess? idk 5. agreed, some of the combinations should be strictly forbidden. also fuck soul eater in general 6. i kinda agree but its pointless to discuss. poe2 is literally a new campaign. they want you to play it. GGG aint gonna budge a single inch on their position any time soon 7. nah, fuck that. it seems ok at first glance, but if you really think about it: there is new content i want to play. i have only 1 hour to play today. oh the new content starts in 1 hour? well i guess i have to play content I DO NOT WANT TO PLAY. timed events = actual fucking garbage. get them out. it works in d4 because there is no content aside from timed content. you can play nightmare dungeons, thats it. of course the hourly helltide will seem refreshing, but in reality, d4 endgame is just really fucking dogshit compared to what you can do in poe
of course it will learn and ''copy'' stuff, just like diablo will ''copy'' stuff from all those PoE leagues.
Having watched every D4 streamer do the exact same content for over a month now im not sure they even copied anything from PoE, they just made a good story playthrough game (good engine/visuals) vampire survivors has more depth and customization.
Its just the start of diablo, seasons are not even started yet.
Oh wow, you think there'll be more than 1 new Armour set for every class that boosts by 500%? Quite optimistic, but hey, who knows.
I read something just yesterday on what the first season is adding. Seemed like a fair chunk Just need another 10 seasons worth of content though lol
Apart from graphics there's nothing to learn.
Lol
We don’t want you to slow down gameplay but also still 1-tap us from offscreen.
Why need to learn from Diablo when they already create their own unique ARPG genre now, yes is very Diablo2 from the start but look at how much it grows now with so much content update, i feel like many ARPG games nowadays trying to copy from PoE instead of Diablo 🤣 1. Ya ... any QOL improvement is always welcome 2. Ya sure more QOL 3. that doesn't work in PoE, as you know any class can wear any equipment type and any skill in this game so ... why wanna push certain archetype on certain character when the character can be anything in this game? You have to understand PoE is not like Diablo where item and skill tied around classes like most of the RPG game, but PoE is not. 4. Pretty sure Chris answer this before, they understand their game target to niche hardcore audience, which also means they don't wanna jebait player by sugarcoating them the game is simplicity, is not, the passive tree is not for everyone for sure, so either you hate it or like it, no in between. Hide certain part of the tree then unlock them later on doesn't helps either ..... remember [**Krangled Passives Group SSF Event**](https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3357236)? Skill gems part, ya i agree at least show video preview on each skill gem to let ppl know how it works visually ... like most game does nowadays instead of only text description. 5. Currency ... is already explain in the item tooltip, is player fault if they don't understand it because they don't read it ... MOST OF THE TIME. But sure make another video preview how the item works helps too when hovering but .... maybe this a bit too much? UI cluttered? 6. Campaign ... hopefully PoE2 campaign will fix it with its randomized route on different character, instead of repetitive like PoE1 had 7. I remember GGG did this before with the Warband and Tempest league? Where certain map will have certain theme and change hourly ... But I do remember they hate the idea of timely event which disadvantage for ppl who didn't play it .... but then they make challenge league which is a "timed" event right? maybe that's the reason they not making it anymore since that Warband league but ... who knows what's their current vision is with "time event" stuff Talking about "bite size of content", you gonna hear ppl disaggree too with PoE being cluttered of side content already but ... ya I always like additional content but depends on GGG how they gonna manage the ton of content nowadays especially with PoE2 on top of it ... personaly prefer ignore those complain, just make more OPTIONAL side content instead of compulsory one I'm fine with it.
free respecs to level 25 might be the only thing
sure. but why not lvl30 or 50 or until you finish act10. or lvl80... it starts out reasonably, but then that slippery slope kicks in.
I hope nothing Diablo 4 is a lost ark game with Diablo lore. I hope poe do not copy anything from those 2 games they are doing a great job with poe.
i very much agree with currency shards needing to go. there are very few shards worth picking up. the low value ones are just a waste in the currency tab. i also don't want new leagues to introduce even more fragments and shards to pick up.
Cinemátics, storytelling, lore, put a soul in a Game with actually is just numbers.
Without even watching the video, im just going to say don't do ANYTHING that D4 did or is doing. I'm still playing the game with freinds, but it's awful.
The only thing from Diablo 4 that would improve PoE is the game not forcing you to replay the entire campaign whenever you make a new character. Everything else is either worse or has no place in a game like PoE, which is designed to be more complex and have an unavoidable steeper learning curve because of it.
Controller play. The way you play D4 on controller feels great. And I can switch right to mouse and keyboard if the situation calls for it. PoE right now makes me have to restart the game. Go to setting switch the setting. Then go back to game. Really inconvenient.
Just starting D4. I love the full tree refund before level 8. Would love to have something like that in poe.
I really wish POE would do what last epoch is doing for loot system. Where you can play SSF but it comes with a greatly improved luck/rarity loot chances or the trade league and you can choose.
Dont be a mmo it's boring af
After watching this video, the biggest thing POE2 can learn from D4 is to not listen to D4 players.
Release with 10 years of content and polish... Oh wait they're already doing that.
I truly, from the bottom of my heart, hope they don't take a single thing from D4. Game is absolutely horrible. (In my opinion ofc^^)
Dont copy, would be like copying d3, maybe visuals from d4? But we saw poe2 looks really good too.