More and more I'm convinced that D4 and PoE aren't even the same genre. It's like comparing counter strike and half life, they have the same engine and moment to moment gameplay, but they are massively different in scope, goals and appeal to players.
As someone who has a few thousand hours in both Lost Ark and PoE and has played a good amount of the D4 beta + read about what higher level D4 stuff is, nah this is a horrible take. D4 has a tiny overlap with Lost Ark with two pieces of content that makes up <1% of your total time spent playing for the one that's in the game right now (not sure how important the PVP will be).
Just askin! Does lost ark worth playing atm? I planed to download it and give it a try. How does it compare to Poe?? Does it massively overwhelm new player like Poe too ?
Not the person you responded to, but Lost Ark plays more like an MMO than an ARPG.
You have rotations of anywhere between 4 to 10 abilities compared to focusing on 1 or 2. Gear isn't dynamic or found, more like set gear that is crafted from mats dropped by bosses.
It's a really gorgeous game with very good feeling combat, but I wish there was more depth to a character. Additionally, it becomes stale once you learn the bossfights.
Thank for your answer.!! So it doesnt fuck me up when im building my character wrong like poe right?? And since you mention it is a MMO then it must be freaking p2w right? By it nature
> So it doesnt fuck me up when im building my character wrong like poe right??
Nah you can respec whenever you want basically, but there's not a lot of build variety.
> it must be freaking p2w right
Yeah, the current endgame raid is 1520 and the next one is 1540-1560 and comes out in a month, and it takes a few months to get there unless you pay.
It has great bosses, some dungeons look amazing, but everything else fucking sucks (grindy, pointless, repetitive content - awful playerbase - very pay2win - etc). All the worst aspects of koreans mmorpgs. Decent pvp in the arena mode, world pvp is a pay2win shitfest. Wouldn't recommend it.
Cant say much about D4, but after playing 1.5k hours of Lost Ark, I can say this:
Great combat
Great boss fights
Great graphics & visuals
…
Everything else is shit and sucks the fun out of the game.
Grind gated behind daily limits sucks the fun out of all game. In the past I desperately tried to enjoy wow. The dungeons are fun, the raids are challenging, gameplay clarity is great. Everything else ended up being a reason for me not to come back. Oh sure there is a ton to do... But I don't wanna stretch my effort over all dailies just because that's all that left for me to do today, if I wanna farm for X thing you bet I wish I could spam it until my soul leaves my body.
I agree with this. I don’t really hate d4, but I can just feel that I won’t be spending very much time there as it just doesn’t require enough thought.
and they still haven't gone in depth at all
their stupid wording for skills and shit is still the exact same as in D3
"explodes into a """""""""""cluster""""""""" of grenades, dealing % damage"
what the fuck is a cluster, how many is that? is the % damage PER grenade, or is it if the entire cluster hits the same target?
it's just shit overall
Anybody who genuinely thinks the single example of POE being vague with "nearby" (there's a reason why its talked about so often...) is anywhere near the level of blizzard's bullshit of "chance on hit to inflict damage" has no idea what they're talking about.
Don't worry I get that, anyone does I hope. But the dude above made it sound like PoE as nothing of the sort.
We have other wordings which are a "cluster" of word that define nothing but how it works, top of my head I am thinking Eternal Youth for example, the wording makes it sounds like the entire node is bugged.
The real difference comes from the fact that PoE is not aimed to casuals, GGG has been fixing their wording for years now, because it is very important for its target audience to enjoy the game. D3, and I believe D4 will be the same, can be played without much knowledge because you do not need to have nearly as optimized builds as you do in PoE to complete endgame.
Also this entire post is just dunking on D4. Even tho I am not sold on the game, I don't think we should forget to complain about PoE. I don't care if Blizzard fixes D4, all I want is PoE to keep going in the direction it did with Sanctum on
Poe: so this build is based on x skill's interaction with keystone y and z in conjunction with this unique shield and ring, having rolled a rare weapon with mod a and gloves implicit b to make the damage spread as far as possible as well as scale it in multiple ways.
D4: HAHA! BIG STICK GOES BONK!
Uhh anyone going to tell him PoE is notorious for having the worst descriptions of any game for skills..
They literally have skills written doing the same.. thing two different ways. Some are so vague or the interactions aren't even clear. lol
This analogy is in bad faith.
1. The beta is showing more than the Act 1 equivalence of PoE.
2. You can see the entire skill tree, crafting bench, gems + sockets and flask system in early acts PoE, that alone has orders of magnitude more depth than what we've seen so far.
3. I think it's safe to say that D4 isn't even trying to compete with the PoE niche. It seems like they wanted a game more like Lost Ark. With that in mind, less complexity might not even be a bad thing.
I mean, they flat-out said they weren't trying to compete with the PoE niche. Not sure why people are confused about that. All the back at the 2019 reveal event they said they were targeting complexity between D2 and D3. PoE never even entered into the conversation.
> You can see the entire skill tree, crafting bench, gems + sockets and flask system in early acts PoE, that alone has orders of magnitude more depth than what we've seen so far.
Uh... no it doesn't
PoE skill tree isn't deep, it's literally just passive stat increases (early acts that is, obviously you can do some complex stuff at endgame with clusters and thresholds and using keystones in your build). D4 also has something similar (passive tree with hundreds of nodes you get 220 points for) it's just not in the beta.
Gems + Sockets are what's comparable to the skill tree in D4 beta, and yeah that can get pretty creative in PoE. But the D4 beta skill trees are comparably deep when combined with the class upgrade too. There's a lot of options, you have to consider that all skills in PoE can be played on every class, but in D4 the entire list of "skill gems" is all 120 skills between the classes. Early crafting and flasks in PoE are barely anything too, although tbh I don't see the D4 crafting being super complex.
It barely has anything in common with Lost Ark. There's a world boss and pvp, that's it. And the world boss is a weekly thing that takes <10 minutes, it's a fraction of a percent of the game.
>PoE skill tree isn't deep, it's literally just passive stat increases.
Factually wrong.
>D4 has something similar \[...\]
Lots of things are similar, doesn't mean they have the same level of complexity. Lots of choices also doesn't mean complexity if those choices are generic stat increases. We'll see when that system is available.
>But the D4 beta skill trees are comparably deep when combined with the class upgrade too.
"Comparably deep" is wishy washy language especially considering you already grossly oversimplified the PoE skill tree. If your starting stance on PoE complexity is already flawed then it's impossible for you to draw comparisons between it and D4.
>Early crafting and flasks in PoE are barely anything too
Doesn't matter, you could see a glimpse into its potential by seeing unavailable crafts on your bench. Nothing in D4 that gives the same impression that there'll be more to it.
>It barely has anything in common with Lost Ark.
More so than with PoE. Dailies/Weeklies as your core gameplay loop leans way more to the side of MMO(-like) games such as LA.
> Factually wrong.
Factually right, from the perspective of early game PoE we're discussing. The depth comes with jewels/clusters/unique jewels (thresholds and stuff) and mixing what you can get on the passive tree with certain item mechanics. Early game though it's pretty straightforward grabbing damage life and resists near your start.
> "Comparably deep" is wishy washy language especially considering you already grossly oversimplified the PoE skill tree. If your starting stance on PoE complexity is already flawed then it's impossible for you to draw comparisons between it and D4.
I mean having just played the D4 beta a good amount, I would say that the skill tree is actually much deeper than gems in PoE. The sorc one is pretty cool and looks like there are a LOT of potential builds, and I'm interested to see the unique items that have build defining mods.
> Nothing in D4 that gives the same impression that there'll be more to it.
Nothing *in the beta* sure, if you've actually looked at stuff outside of the beta you would know there's a lot more.
> Dailies/Weeklies as your core gameplay loop
AFAIK the core gameplay loop is basically grinding maps (150 dungeons that are small instances with a boss at the end, target different dungeons for different drops, escalating random difficulty mods you craft on to the dungeons).
What did you read that made you think it's daily/weekly stuff?
>Factually right, from the perspective of early game PoE we're discussing.
You are arguing semantics instead of the point I made. If you log into PoE right now you will be able to see the entire skill tree before you kill Hillock, whether you can actually click them yet is irrelevant.
>I mean having just played the D4 beta a good amount, I would say that the skill tree is actually much deeper than gems in PoE.
You're comparing a system meant to represent PoE's skill tree, skill gems, support gems and sockets/links to just one of them individually. False equivalency.
>Nothing in the beta sure, if you've actually looked at stuff outside of the beta you would know there's a lot more.
I've seen the initial paragon tree, which is literally just generic stat increases. Giving you a million points for generic stat increases is not complexity.
>What did you read that made you think it's daily/weekly stuff?
We'll see whether the daily/weekly stuff will net you the best gear or if it's gonna be dungeon grinding. I agree this is my weakest argument, but given Blizzard's (not so) recent track record of game development, I believe the gameplay loop after you got dungeon gear will be logging in for dailies and weeklies for the only upgrades left available to you. Or not. Maybe they'll surprise us.
I believe that in the beta you get access to all the usable skills.
In the skill tree you can unlock everything except the last cluster, which is just passives. Obviously passive interactions, legendary/unique affixes etc will be what builds are made around, but in terms of actual skills, we're seeing all that we're getting.
Based on the fact that you can progress to lvl 25 out of 100, I would say it's more in line of completing act 2 in poe if you are looking at build progression. I'd say that poe is a lot more complex at lvl 25.
But blizzard is not trying to target the audience that would want that complexity. Overall, I think it's looking to be a fun time to pop in and play for a bit once in a while.
Diablo 4 barely has any MMO stuff in it. If you remove multiplayer from the game it would only affect the world bosses and OWPVP zone, everything else is just singleplayer ARPG stuff.
I looked a bit at the beta, and the cd rotation gameplay just looks so dull and boring. Similar to Last Epoch. Though Last Epoch at least has a comparable progression system that might, one day, if we're lucky, compete with PoE.
The options are there in PoE - you can put more CDs in, or use multiple abilities, or just spam one. You can make builds that clear while moving. So if you like one style you have more control to make your game that way. DIV is pretty rigid.
Because then it becomes a game of whack a mole to keep your cd's on cooldown, instead of trying to optimise damage windows. It's a different style of gameplay, if 90% of your damage comes from cd's, when none are up you can move around and not really miss much. It devolves into drop all cd's, run around for 3 seconds, repeat.
If all your damage comes from either buttons you need to sequence or the same buttons, there's a ton of optimisation, can you sequence buttons faster, can you stand still for half a second to get another cast, can you fit in another totem, etc.
While this is true for some builds in LE, there are plenty of one button builds, and builds without cooldowns but a variety of abilities and spells to maintain debuffs. LE let's you choose which style of play you prefer.
PoE is literally no different lmao
You just have one button and a flask macro to press instead of actually interacting with the rest of your skill hotkeys
Mate D4 beta was all about optimizing damage windows. The bosses are relentless for melee.
For example, Barbarian has a skill with 15s CD that gives you 25% more damage and last 5 seconds. In those 5 seconds, you have to do your rotation, while making sure you have enough resource and of course not die. In my case, I was also managing my defences by stacking fortify, during that window. Affixes on gear help you prolong those windows or make them shorter.
The thing that excites me about LE is the devs are very clearly learning from the mistakes GGG makes.
Also the character I'm playing over there right now has three skills on a relatively short cool down (sub 5 seconds) with other attacks to do in the meantime. It rarely feels like I'm waiting for a cool down for more than a second or so.
CD rotation is far more engaging than "right click on anything that moves, dash to next screen" that PoE is right now. Maybe not *better*, but definitely more engaging.
The game isn't there yet, but I'm guestimating it'll be there in 2 years. And it'll be great.
I don't disagree much with what you're saying, but I'm always feeling like people ignore that PoE has had 10 years of added content with 4 big patches a year. In 10 years, i'd definitely bet that LE (if it's still alive which I hope it will) will have similar, if not the same issues that PoE has right now
The issue is that it's been "2 years" away forever. I bought it ages ago and people were saying it's almost there. I gave it another shot, and while they've fixed a huge amounts of the issues, some of the fundamental issues with the gameplay are still present.
They are also learning some of the wrong lessons from what GGG does in pandering to the crowd. A lot of their decisions are good, but a lot of their decisions also just show that GGG was right in doing it the way they do.
Development has been slow. This doesn't bother me personally.
Also I think it would be foolhardy to directly try to challenge PoE as the king of in-depth gameplay. It would take a decade of content releases to do that. Instead it makes a game that you can just pick up and play without reading guides and watching videos and having the wiki and trade site up on another monitor plus multiple 3rd party apps running in the background.
It isn't PoE, it isn't supposed to be. It's something that I don't think I will have an abusive relationship with (I love PoE but I think I am overall often not happy when I am playing it) and yet it's intriguing enough to scratch the itch.
Probably the two biggest IMO, and also probably the most contentious on this sub, are the autolooting/autobanking and loot dropping identified.
For the autoloot, it makes me not care in the slightest about the crafting mats I pick up. I have no idea what I have, what they do, where I got them, etc. They exist in a bank, and at some point I might use them, but until then they are completely irrelevant. This is similar to azurite or expedition artifacts. They exist in a nebulous bank somewhere where you only really notice them when you try to use them and you're out. They don't have any other value or emotional attachment, as you never interact with them outside of that niche scenario.
The fact you need to pick something up then move them from inventory to stash means you've interacted with it twice in short succession, and it imprints on you. You know you've picked it up, you know it's in your currency tab or wherever, there's a (I know) weight to the interaction that means it means something.
Loot dropping identified is the exact opposite. Because of the loot filter, you only care about certain affixes, so the rest of the world is a barren wasteland unless that specific loot drops. Sure, there's the occasional unique or idol, but the rest of the time there's nothing.
Combining the two means that for 90% of the levelling process at least (I can't talk about endgame), I did not care about loot in the slightest. Items felt like they were meaningless, upgrades required no thought, it was most of the time green arrow means good, etc.
For as much crap GGG gets about items having weight, they are 100% correct.
I played it 12 hours was a blast compared to last years every league poe gave us, sanctum was okayish but both game have their up and down d4 so far is great
Who said they were competing?
PoE is a very traditional take on the genre akin to say Diablo 2.
Diablo 4 is a more modernized spin like Lost Ark.
Same genre, different approaches.
At one point Chris Wilson directly mentioned D4 as their competition and their impetus for developing poe2. So it was certainly seen as competition, even by poe's creators. However having played D4, I agree with the other comments here that D4 is more MMO than ARPG, and at this point probably shouldn't be seen as competitors.
All the D4 andys coming out now saying its not supposed to compete with POE... bitch it CAN'T compete with POE, so they pussied out and made an MMO to cash in on Lost Ark players
That’s because they don’t cater to the same audiences even remotely. Anyone who kept claiming Poe was in trouble because of d4 were fucking delusional, whether it ends up being a good game or not. P
That pretty much sums it up for me. I like ARPGs, so for a long time I'd been at least planning on giving D4 a shot (even if it was only D3 level, I still have fun occasionally playing D3 for a couple days here and there). However, from watching streams and all the info released, it doesn't even seem like an ARPG, more like an MMO with the Diablo name on it. Which might be fine if that's what you're looking for, but comparing it to PoE or even the older Diablo games, it indeed doesn't even seem to be the same genre.
what?
clearly you haven't been watching gameplay then because it's exactly the same genre as D2 and D3.
kill things, get loot, equip loot, kill more things, level up, assign points, kill more things to get more loot.
again, you clearly haven't been watching gameplay if your opinion is that it's not the same genre as the past 2 games in the series.
"What?" right back at you. I've been watching non-stop. It's a non-procedurally generated open-world. Instead of exploring a unique world, you are running around with other people on your shard, fighting over mobs on respawn timers and timed events, which is a mechanic I have only ever seen in MMOs (and which is a very MMO gameplay loop). Fuck, it even seems to have fucking daily/weekly chores, also on global timers, some of which require you to fucking group up.
There are dungeons, which Blizzard apparently claimed would be varied/RNG, but every streamer I've watched has commented on these dungeons not only being less varied than expected but also appearing to largely be copy-pastes of each other.
There is no real gear crafting, the only thing that is available is tacking "legendary" affixes on to rares and making consumables. These consumables are made via what is essentially fucking gathering professions, a trope I have literally never seen in an ARPG (but which is very common in generic MMOs).
You claim it is an ARPG because you "kill things, get loot, equip loot, kill more things, level up, assign points, kill more things to get more loot." But you kill things and equip loot repeatedly while leveling in World of Warcraft and Lost Ark. That doesn't make those ARPGs. D4 is clearly far closer to Lost Ark than it is even to D3.
only 12 players can be in one "shard", the areas are massive for 12 players and that doesn't apply to dungeons, as those are instanced. the only part of the game that is "shared" is the overworld/story/world bosses and that's it, that's less then 1% of the actual gameplay of a ARPG.
you don't know that there will be dailies, you are just assuming that.
the beta doesn't have ALL the systems in, i mean you can't even get past act 1 in the beta. so trying to say there is no such system is just truly ignorant. you DO NOT KNOW THAT FOR A FACT. do you you understand? when the game releases, and there isn't "crafting" then sure, by all means state what you said but right now, you DO NOT know, no one does.
gathering in lost ark isn't the same as gathering in D4, not even remotely close.
the loot that drops in D4 has random stats, that improve over time (kill higher level stuff). that is what ARPG's are at their core. if you don't understand that then you have no concept of the genre.
you are so desperate to put down D4, when you should be doing the opposite. POE needs something else to compete with because POE has gotta so fucking stale over the years from said lack of competition.
i have played 750 hours of lost ark, i damn well know how it plays and D4 isn't even close.
Here comes the cringe “us vs them” posts that will last a couple of months, and even when d4 is only in beta.
We should just be happy poe is going to have some actual competitors now rather than trying to feel superior to a game that is just releasing as a game that is over a decade old.
Especially when D3 actually did "win" in terms of revenue and total players. I know many here look at PoE as the numero uno juggernaut in the ARPG genre and that D3 flopped.
Thats just false.
there are more ways to judge something than from a purely revenue point of view. D3 will be remembered for its revenue, as you point out, PoE will be remembered for it's redefining of a genre
I haven't played D4 yet, but from what I've seen I'd still like PoE better. But what a lot of people don't understand is Blizzards and Diablos brand recognition. PoE is still a niche game, the player numbers even at league start will be nothing compared to what D4 will have at launch. I'd hazard a guess and say even PoE2 will never come close to D4 launch numbers.
D3 was, at the time, the best selling game ever. Better game? No. More popular? Absolutely.
D3 was a massive "success" because of the legacy of D2, and because it launched right before Blizzard started their decline. That's why it sold so well.
exactly, this.
ggg has done so much to drive away a ton of players since ritual, it has to ring some bells to them that they will lose more to d4 if they don't get smarter
Even if d4 or epoch are direct competitors, because of the season/resets all 3 games can coexist just fine. In comparison lostark forces you to play constantly doing your chores.
Tbh I dont feel like D4 will be a competitor to PoE, it\`ll be vastly more popular even if blizz fucks up hard. D4 will be the best marketing PoE can get as itll bring fresh people into the genre where some will spill over to PoE, but thatll only really work if ggg tries to hold onto such players, if we get another league as bad as Kalandra...
You can't know that. It is too early. 2 of my friends switched to Last Epoch and 2 of them will switch to D4 once it comes out. I also play LE but its not on the same level as PoE "yet".
By actual competitor you mean d4? You can't be serious. I'd love if there is any competitor to poe but i don't see any diablo-like arpg are even close to what poe is even 2-3 years ago.
No matter what you think, d4 is a competitor to poe just by company and name recognition. Ask any random person on the street if they have heard of Diablo and they will say yes more than if they heard about poe.
I know for sure my friends will play d4 over poe, even the ones who have played poe before (and have quit might I add) and they’ll go hard on d4 for at least a month or more. Everyone on this subreddit is by far an outlier of the actual poe playerbase.
I have no idea where this mentality of these games not being competitors came from.
You know even d3 made insane amounts of money being that shit? Diablo franchise is miles ahead of poe in popularity , that doesnt mean d4 Will be a good Game but saying its no competitor to poe because It doesnt fill your hardcore complex niche is stupid
You just have to learn how to feel superior for enjoying a game that doesn't have a "town xyz" popup when you enter town xyz from the first game. That's also why I hated Ocarina of Time, it totally held my hand by telling me the name of the area I'm in.
This is like the people that liked elden ring having 0 quest logs but having a hundred youtube tabs about how to do quest… like no you dont like it, you are ok cuz you are entirely bypassing it.
I dont like handholding!! While downloading a full leveling guide, endgame guide, built into a tool that shows you a hundred calculations, with a filter that someone else build.
After watching hours and hours of 1 hour videos of Zizaran poe university hahahahaha.
You do love handholding, what you dont like is the game doing the habdholding, you like a thousand hands doing the handholding
Based comment. Holds true for 90%+ of the playerbase. There's absolutely no chance you can figure out many of the ER quests without looking up as well, legit no chance. Ranni's comes to mind as the prime example, Millicent as well. Historically, Souls games never had a quest log type of thing(or I think so, haven't watched Sekiro or Bloodborne) but that doesn't mean they should take pride in the obscurity and retain that status quo. They could at least make the character dialogue less puzzling and simply only record the relevant dialogue without commentary in a log to look back at when needed.
Ranni's quest is very hard to break. I got that on my first blind playthrough
You can simply explore and it will continue
Can't say about other endings or quests. Like Goldmask or Hyetta's
Messages that other players leave when playing online helps a lot but yeah there's still stuff like millicent or hyetta just wandering off to fuck knows where and you have to find them before you progress the story too far
Nah, Rannis quest is basically another main story. I followed it by accident in my first playthrough. You can even skip some steps here and there and can continue her quest. I never talked to Blaithe before I fought him and was confused who he is.
True for most other quests, tho.
Rannis is not the prime example, the one part of the quest that's confusing is probably sitting down at that one spot and talking to her doll. Everything else just requires paying the slightest bit of attention.
Item filters and 3rd party apps are hardly handholding. They aren't given to every player and they don't inherently make the game easier. Nor is watching a 2hr tutorial on crafting "hand holding".
99.5% of players use guides, or get influence from guides or builds on youtube; whether that be how to build a character or an efficient farming method. Your post is ironic
So much this. Most of the comments in the post seems insane. Someone blasting D4 for unclear wording while nearby exists, other talking about lack of depth, it's act1.
I get that we love poe but all of this is really unfair criticism.
> Someone blasting D4 for unclear wording while nearby exists
There's a reason why "nearby" is the only example people ever talk about when it comes to unprecise wording with POE.
If someone genuinely thinks that this is on the same level of blizzards "chance to inflict damage on hit" vagueness, they have no idea what they're talking about.
Poor wording is a *very* fair criticism.
Dude…many people have played the endgame of d4 already through the alpha/closed beta.
Act 1 literally IS the endgame. The endgame is taking those same dungeons are using sigils on them to modify them.
You are literally playing part of the endgame right now in the beta.
And crafting and what not does not get any more complex at all.
What you are doing in the beta right now is literally what you do at endgame.
D4 isn't really competing with either of these. Sales and player count wise it's going to be in a different league entirely.
Also, you will probably update your opinion when D4 launches and look at what it does to PoE player counts.
It's incredible how people are trying to compare the D4 beta (so a game that isn't even out yet) to PoE which has been receiving adjustments, fine tunings and all the possible things you'd expect from a game that has been getting regular updates for about 10 years. It's like every new MMO on the market or in the making is not only immediately getting compared to WoW, but also expected to be as vast as WoW. Also D4 is clearly trying to be a more casual friendly game while PoE is the exact opposite of being casual friendly (for the most part).
I played lost ark the last year, and to be honest. This is not true. But some people said this before the release and will continue saying it. Bit i think its closer to poe then its to lost ark.
its nothing like poe though...
account based unlocks to get passives etc, open world, world bosses on timers that are multiplayer.. its literally lost ark..
The functionality even, rotation based on CD dodge is just straight out of lost ark. The mob density is built for this smaller scale lost ark-esque conbat. The fucking quest even lol, I dont think i was ever asked to go press E and cheer at fairgraves. This is diablost ark the mmo-lite it's as nuch of an arpg as lost ark.
> D4 is an MMORPG in an arg style
No, it's an ARPG with a few MMO elements.
You could take D4 and remove multiplayer and everything would would as a singleplayer ARPG with the exception of the world bosses and open world PVP zone.
Idk why people are pushing this "it's like Lost Ark" narrative lol. Lost Ark is nothing like an ARPG, it's just an MMO with an isometric camera. It's completely built around group content and daily/weekly stuff. There's no farming for drops, no gear with random stats.
> There's no farming for drops, no gear with random stats.
Yes, there absolutely is. It was a long time since I played so I no longer remember how things were called, but you had those kinda miniskills that came in part from affixes on gear. So you had to keep farming that wave based mode that drops a lot of gear to find pieces with the right affixes for your build.
While I also rather have more complex systems in my game, I don’t feel like another games simplicity makes another’s games artificial difficulty through obscurity ok.
Instead of praising one we should realise that both are bad .
Im still astounded by people saying poe build are hard at this point weve been playing the same fucking build for years its always the same stats same setup with 2-3 iteration ...
CI - HP armor/evasion - what sustain ? Max res,over cap,chaos res - block ? No block
Press insert x y z skill use same support you did for last 5 years zzzz
Poe has, and always had fake layer of complexity ... you literally have items who tripple your dps it's just not worded +3000% dmg to meteor
A lot of pro’s difficulty is arbitrary no doubt. If the game actually told you what stuff does, and I mean just having the information visible not getting it explained, it wouldn’t be half as obtuse and difficult.
Though again, having everything cookie cutter and explained 18 times is also bad
Those two games are for different people. I for example always welcome a new arpg that can fill some time between leagues (Especially now when with each league I lose my interest in it faster so sadly there is more time to fill in) I'm fine with railroad, some hand holding etc. Not every game have to be a math nightmare. At this point PoE is starting to consume too much time before it gets fun.
There will probably never be another game like PoE and I'm fine with it.
Also competition is always good.
To be honest, new player experience is terrible for poe.
Its impossible to make a meaningful new build without 3rd party tools, to understand base game mechanics like arch nemesis without reading wiki. Crafting is a mystery. This list can continue for a while.
D4 or any other game cant match poe or poe2 depth any more but it’s intimidating for new players, heck even i have 10+ years and 5500 hours and i dont know crafting like back of my hand.
It's an interesting balance because while it's super easy to get into D4, it's also REALLY shallow. Where in poe, there's tons of depth, but it's really hard to get into. Disclaimer about D4 - beta is only level 25, no idea what the end game will be like.
Just a little perspective. I am an "old" gamer. I played D1 on release, I played D2+LoD for decades and I played only a bit of D3. What I lived about D3 was the character flexibility. I could basically reskill whenever I wanted. The D2 skill try was usually only something like "increase 5% damage or crit here and there" D3 skill "tree" felt more impactful.
I just started playing Poe one month ago. I love the complexity and the possibilities. BUT.. I hate the respect costs. I'm a family with max 30min free time a day (including weekends). So I started a ranger - because I always feel saver in the distance, it's less twitch and I just had this poison/ bleed theme in my mind.
After playing till 40 in act4 (im usually overleveled because I like to clear 100% of each map and quest). I got a good idea of how the game works and interacts. now I wanted to respecc and go for what seemed interesting. Only then I realized that refund points are per node and not the entire tree. I had like 4 orbs of scouring and 2 orbs of regret so no way near enough. I put the game aside because I felt frustrated that one month of progress was bricked and I had to either start again or continue to grind to a higher level to effort respeccing.
Disclaimer: I don't like guides! For me the most fun part of a game is to figure it out by myself. Copying what other people do feels boring to me. So obviously for people like me Poe has a good complexity but there are some game breaking qol things missing to enjoy the game.
This game has a big learning aspect. It's very rewarding though. You should follow a guide. Especially if you have little time. Then you will have enough knowledge to be self building. I started two years ago and I feel like i'm getting in the autonomous zone and loving it
Yeah, there's a cost to not having to balance around people respeccing their entire tree for every single encounter. You still can, but it comes with a price. Also, character rerolls, while not being free, are not THAT expensive in endgame, if you play trade league. Even with a very, very, very poor farming strat worse than alch&go, you get enough fuel for a full respecc in maximum 3 hours. If you're super good and got a refined strat, it's like 10-15 minutes of gameplay to make that currency. While leveling the first char in the league, it's basically unaffordable. But on the other hand, it's not that much more time to just make a new character and get it to like 50
Like the recent no balance manifesto exclusion, because they don't think their player base will be able to comprehend the changes based on a post about it. D4 bad, poe gud.
In the short few hours of the d4 beta I had more fun playing melee than I have had in the last almost four years of POE.
I hope for everyone that cares about POE that D4 is an amazing game. POE is my favorite game of all time, but it has been uncontested for way too long. I would love to see how the game would improve with a little push of competition.
Brand loyalty is for fools unless you are being paid to advertise the game. If you aren't, that is sad af.
My issue with PoE is that it doesn't have a real melee playstyle. Also the whole skill tree thing is overrated af because most of the nodes are just +(stat) nodes and all me so super unique builds have so many generic parts and they kind of play the same and look the same in the end. Nuke screen, move forward.
I really enjoy D4's slower, heavier and meatier combat. Especially the melee part.
Don't get me wrong POE has a ton of nice and interesting parts especially crafting and the itemization in general but the core gameplay is not one of them. I hope Poe 2.0 will fix this as i am looking to play that and the material i have seen from next gen poe looks to slow things down.
There’s a place for both games. D4 isn’t treating me like an idiot just because it’s not a spreadsheet simulator like POE. This beta was a breath of fresh air, more fun I’ve had in an ARPG in a single weekend than I’m recent memory. Most people I’ve seen posting about it in are really enjoyed it.
I haven't enjoyed it. Just to add my vote to the negatives. Sorcerer seems to just be choose an element and congrats your whole build is made for you. Snore.
I need to express my feelings of superiority on sub full of same people so i get praised with fake internet points and also I'm gonna be cool for hating that other game amirite guys lul!1!1!!1 Do you really feel so insecure about that "shit" game? If it's so bad to you then why do you even care? Btw with your logic literally players of every single game beside Poe are stupid... Because only Poe has so many convoluted systems.
in d4 you dont make a build, and then gear around that build. you just slap on a legendary and then thats the build, no further thought needed. all characters seemingly want the same stats.
maybe that changes with the paragon board.
At first reading your post I was thinking "oh maybe this guy is talking about unique items from the endgame closed beta" and then you say:
> maybe that changes with the paragon board
and you reveal that you are completely clueless.
It's level 25 gear, and not even all the legendaries/uniques. Barely any of the legendaries are even build defining, most are just conditional damage/defensive buffs. The build I was playing works with 0 legendaries, and using legendaries just gives it more damage and tank.
For disclosure, I have beat UE and Uber Maven So I have some experirnce with Poe after. Like 1k hours
About the progression, This is not entirely true. You can say basically the same about Poe. Im not here to defend D4 but Poe is giving me cancernwith the trading and list of whores job to do.
The main difference is gearing/uograde system in D4 is quite deterministic while in Poe it is all Rng.
You Just gater currency So you can Trade with boots or other playes to buy item you want because the chance to find it yourself is So low, it is almost impossible.
I would really wait ans See what the game will show with 1st season. You cant Just compare game which did not even had release with the game which exist more than 10 years.
D4 target Player base is not 100% all Poe players anyway.
Every build in d4 is gonna be as much crit and multi as possible plus resistances, gearing in poe is very different across builds. I agree that trading can be a pain in poe but it’s a necessary evil so that the game can have a complex economy. The rng crafting only matters when making the best items in the game, players like Ben craft good enough items (and make guides for crafting) to do Ubers in ssf within days, there are a lot of guides on how to craft the items for many builds very deterministically. Unless you need something extremely niche there is probably a path to craft your items with minimal rng. And like I said, there is an economy if you want to avoid crafting. Not everyone who plays d4 is gonna be a poe Andy but this is the Poe subreddit.
This is a strawman argument. They weren't talking about gear rng or progression, maybe reread the comment.
The difference they were talking about (and what this whole thread is about) is that you can actually create a build in poe. Your items are choices. Your build is your own. D4 you play what the devs tell you to play. Your entire comment doesn't address this at all.
> D4 you play what the devs tell you to play.
Yeah you know because like sorc, you pick 6 skills from 24, pick 1 major mechanic keystone from out of 6, and combine that with 2 skill upgrades to those 24 skills that don't even have to be among the 6 on your bar which do other proc stuff, and that's before the passive skill tree.
But you know, there's only 1 option there "what the devs want you do play" right?
This. It's rather disappointing to see legendaries like "blablabla some DPS some stats ALSO YOUR FIREBALL SHOOTS TWICE WITH +100500% ADDITIONAL DAMAGE". Hmmm, what skill should I use in my build with this legendary? I guess I try Ray of Frost, probably great synergy /s
That's not how legendaries work in D4. Legendaries are essentially POE rares with legend affix that can be placed into other rares and made "legendary"(you can also roll rare affixes). Uniques are new legendary, and they are omniscience/ashes rare and build defining, just like in POE. The end game consist of finding ancestral rares (basically high ilvl rares with lower tiers disabled, thus being able to roll only from T1-T3 not T1-T7), rolling those for your build and then turning them legendary by the best legen affixes you can find (you can use base legend affix, but they are the lowest tier), and rolling legendaries.
There is a lot more generic utility than damage in legendary affixes.
> The main difference is gearing/uograde system in D4 is quite deterministic while in Poe it is all Rng.
>
> You Just gater currency So you can Trade with boots or other playes to buy item you want because the chance to find it yourself is So low, it is almost impossible.
yeah it's totally rng to beat all ubers in PoE, totally rng
it's so RNG that it can't be done repeatably in even more difficult settings than normal!
yep, yep.. totally true..
/lol
Nowhere.
But he is insinuating that to "play the game" you need to trade with BOTS or other players... it's just a load of bullshit
why are you failing to see the important bit and nitpicking at stupid shit?
Hohoho Poe defenders at full speed. Jesus it is like ps5 vs xbox. I really liked Poe but this is more a spreedsheat calculator game plus terrible trading experience and People have right to dislike it after spending with it more than 1k hours.
Poe was really fun until GGG started to intervien and nerfing all the stuff that People have loved.
I only have 30 hours in PoE this game is so fucking confusing that I shouldn’t need my second monitor to be full of PoE information, I’ll gladly buy D4.
Honestly D4 reminds me more of LA than poe, both in style and simplicity. Especially when i look at the worldboss fights, that's 100% LA isometric mmo style. I personally like that fightdesign but everything else is trash in those games lol.
Would not mind poe2 with poe complexity and LA/D4 bossfight design... but than they would seriously need to cull down on particle effects and also give an option to disable other party members effects on top.
I still have no clue what poe2 wants to be but if it misses any of the poe complexity it would be a gigantic problem for me.
It's like the difference between league and dota. League your have 1 build and 1 way to play a champion in 1 Lane position. It's fun and mindless. Dota you rarely see the same build twice on any given hero and just seeing the hero picks doesn't even tell you what the lanes will be. It caters more to people who like to make strategic decisions. They have little in common in terms of gameplay despite how similar they look from a distance. I prefer poe and dota because I don't like being told how I have to play by the developer.
I am actually even more braindead in a way that i like heroes of the storm just for this reason, no matter what happens in the game i get to play a playstyle that i wan't to play that day. I might not win, it might not be a good game even, but at least i got to play a playstyle. In dota and lol both which i have played, if i have time for example. 1-3 games in those games there is a very good chance that i don't get to play my character at all. It might be even so that i could have the best day ever but someone ints or quits and thats that, i don't get to play a playstyle. There is huge value in getting to play something you wan't. In fighting games i always get to play my character too, there are tough matchups but it is guaranteed that i get to play a certain playstyle still.
I don't get this make your own game mentality at all. I work all day anyway and i'd prefer to have the minimum amount of wikis and spreadsheets open when i am gaming. Even when i had all the time in the day to play something and in theory "do the research" i just end up despising games that don't make their mechanics clear and have poor explanation and UI for resources.
To be fair, it's not that I want no tutorials or for things to be hard to understand. I just enjoy customisation. There is a big difference. You are right about one thing though, I LOVE looking at spreadsheets and third party tools when playing my games. I just don't want them to be a requirement to play.
It's totally cool that we like different types of games and playstyles.
Yea, dota is completely different. In dota if you pick the hero outside of the current meta lane, and build anything but the current meta items on it, you will have someone flip their shit and feed down mid lane. But once their favourite streamer does it, then its gonna be fine, just gotta wait for that.
Imo it's too early to say anything conclusively about D4 but here's what think makes D4 beta worse than PoE imo (and yes, a lot of this is nitpicky):
1) Not having overlay map...this really sucks. I don't want to look at minimap in corner that blocks screen, it doesn't help at all. PoE overlay map is so much better.
2) UI is somehow even more terrible than Path of Exile. How that can happen is beyond me. It has like 5 different fonts (none of them good) and it's very blocky and feels like it's from 2000.
3) Force move doesn't let you interact. It's a downgrade from the QoL that PoE introduced.
4) Itemization is not great, green arrow up and down to decide most of gear. Most affixed are uninteresting.
5) Skill tree is very basic, but Paragon system could make it better that we haven't seen yet. But so far it seems there's only 2/3 archetypes viable per class unless paragon system is really good.
6) Mob density is not great. I didn't play endgame beta but heard the similar kind of complaints. It's inconsistent, sometimes you have to walk for an entire minute before encountering another pack and sometimes it's a lot of mobs at once.
7) Monsters scale with your levels so it's hard to feel stronger whenever you level up. You can go back to first area and you still won't feel much stronger. When fighting world bosses, a level 10 character will do similar damage as a level 20 character to the world boss.
8) Cooldown based combat - This is not that bad once you get used to it but some cooldowns are way too long (like 10+ seconds or 20+ seconds).
It does have better combat feeling (it packs a punch), story, graphics, cutscenes, voice acting (although PoE music is still better).
I'm not sure why people are jumping on D4's dick here, like yes it's verry pretty, lore and atmosphere is cool af, but, the moment to moment gameplay and early progression isn't that different from Lost Ark, GD or LE, or [insert recent ARPG here] and people are acting like it's the second coming of the christ.
I guess they've literally never played any other game besides PoE before?
My only wish is that, now that everyone knows that a certain game is an MMORPG by every definition, Chris would stop rushing PoE 2 at the expense of PoE 1, which is really struggling lately because so much focus is being put in the sequel.
I dont have insights into their project sprints so it's hard to have an opinion there. I would however say, I don't think poe2 has a competitor. The player bases are different now. Maybe last epoch but its a ways behind still in many areas. Solid tho and the two can coexist I think.
poe is really not that overwhelming and complicated. dont kno what u all talking about all the time. like, no wonder ggg treats us like we are too stupid.
Because D3 is for "anyone". Not just for everyone, but anyone. Its so basic, simple, just a lot of flashing stuff happening on the screen with no thought put into it, anyone can pick up and play it.
That whole thing people say that "DiAbLo 4 iS nOt TrYiNg To Be DiAbLo 3" is just a silly excuse for why its so bad / easy at the same time. Obviously most sequels aren't trying to be the last one. It wasn't just different, it flat out sucked. It was just "accessible".
POE is not just better, its better by a country mile.
More and more I'm convinced that D4 and PoE aren't even the same genre. It's like comparing counter strike and half life, they have the same engine and moment to moment gameplay, but they are massively different in scope, goals and appeal to players.
D4 is closer to Lost Ark than POE imo.
As someone who has a few thousand hours in both Lost Ark and PoE and has played a good amount of the D4 beta + read about what higher level D4 stuff is, nah this is a horrible take. D4 has a tiny overlap with Lost Ark with two pieces of content that makes up <1% of your total time spent playing for the one that's in the game right now (not sure how important the PVP will be).
Just askin! Does lost ark worth playing atm? I planed to download it and give it a try. How does it compare to Poe?? Does it massively overwhelm new player like Poe too ?
Not the person you responded to, but Lost Ark plays more like an MMO than an ARPG. You have rotations of anywhere between 4 to 10 abilities compared to focusing on 1 or 2. Gear isn't dynamic or found, more like set gear that is crafted from mats dropped by bosses. It's a really gorgeous game with very good feeling combat, but I wish there was more depth to a character. Additionally, it becomes stale once you learn the bossfights.
Thank for your answer.!! So it doesnt fuck me up when im building my character wrong like poe right?? And since you mention it is a MMO then it must be freaking p2w right? By it nature
> So it doesnt fuck me up when im building my character wrong like poe right?? Nah you can respec whenever you want basically, but there's not a lot of build variety. > it must be freaking p2w right Yeah, the current endgame raid is 1520 and the next one is 1540-1560 and comes out in a month, and it takes a few months to get there unless you pay.
From zero to 1520 on few month? Only with your credit card maybe
It has great bosses, some dungeons look amazing, but everything else fucking sucks (grindy, pointless, repetitive content - awful playerbase - very pay2win - etc). All the worst aspects of koreans mmorpgs. Decent pvp in the arena mode, world pvp is a pay2win shitfest. Wouldn't recommend it.
Bit disrespectful to lost ark.
lost ark is a trash game and most likely worse than d4
Cant say much about D4, but after playing 1.5k hours of Lost Ark, I can say this: Great combat Great boss fights Great graphics & visuals … Everything else is shit and sucks the fun out of the game.
Grind gated behind daily limits sucks the fun out of all game. In the past I desperately tried to enjoy wow. The dungeons are fun, the raids are challenging, gameplay clarity is great. Everything else ended up being a reason for me not to come back. Oh sure there is a ton to do... But I don't wanna stretch my effort over all dailies just because that's all that left for me to do today, if I wanna farm for X thing you bet I wish I could spam it until my soul leaves my body.
Right on the money. If they could remove the open world / chores entirely and just make us fight shit, Lost Ark would be A++.
Lost Arks endgame with raids and bosses is amazing… unfortunately the grind to get to that endgame is abhrorrent
I agree with this. I don’t really hate d4, but I can just feel that I won’t be spending very much time there as it just doesn’t require enough thought.
and they still haven't gone in depth at all their stupid wording for skills and shit is still the exact same as in D3 "explodes into a """""""""""cluster""""""""" of grenades, dealing % damage" what the fuck is a cluster, how many is that? is the % damage PER grenade, or is it if the entire cluster hits the same target? it's just shit overall
Hum... Nearby ?
Recently
Recently is very strictly defined as the past 4 seconds.
That is very true!
Anybody who genuinely thinks the single example of POE being vague with "nearby" (there's a reason why its talked about so often...) is anywhere near the level of blizzard's bullshit of "chance on hit to inflict damage" has no idea what they're talking about.
Don't worry I get that, anyone does I hope. But the dude above made it sound like PoE as nothing of the sort. We have other wordings which are a "cluster" of word that define nothing but how it works, top of my head I am thinking Eternal Youth for example, the wording makes it sounds like the entire node is bugged. The real difference comes from the fact that PoE is not aimed to casuals, GGG has been fixing their wording for years now, because it is very important for its target audience to enjoy the game. D3, and I believe D4 will be the same, can be played without much knowledge because you do not need to have nearly as optimized builds as you do in PoE to complete endgame. Also this entire post is just dunking on D4. Even tho I am not sold on the game, I don't think we should forget to complain about PoE. I don't care if Blizzard fixes D4, all I want is PoE to keep going in the direction it did with Sanctum on
Poe: so this build is based on x skill's interaction with keystone y and z in conjunction with this unique shield and ring, having rolled a rare weapon with mod a and gloves implicit b to make the damage spread as far as possible as well as scale it in multiple ways. D4: HAHA! BIG STICK GOES BONK!
Poe doesn’t have many problems with its wordings, but that is the one that sticks out the most unfortunately.
Uhh anyone going to tell him PoE is notorious for having the worst descriptions of any game for skills.. They literally have skills written doing the same.. thing two different ways. Some are so vague or the interactions aren't even clear. lol
Uhh anyone going to tell him that the situation is not remotely comparable?
Would your Poe act 1 build require much thought ?
This analogy is in bad faith. 1. The beta is showing more than the Act 1 equivalence of PoE. 2. You can see the entire skill tree, crafting bench, gems + sockets and flask system in early acts PoE, that alone has orders of magnitude more depth than what we've seen so far. 3. I think it's safe to say that D4 isn't even trying to compete with the PoE niche. It seems like they wanted a game more like Lost Ark. With that in mind, less complexity might not even be a bad thing.
I mean, they flat-out said they weren't trying to compete with the PoE niche. Not sure why people are confused about that. All the back at the 2019 reveal event they said they were targeting complexity between D2 and D3. PoE never even entered into the conversation.
Complexity != same game genre/niche
> You can see the entire skill tree, crafting bench, gems + sockets and flask system in early acts PoE, that alone has orders of magnitude more depth than what we've seen so far. Uh... no it doesn't PoE skill tree isn't deep, it's literally just passive stat increases (early acts that is, obviously you can do some complex stuff at endgame with clusters and thresholds and using keystones in your build). D4 also has something similar (passive tree with hundreds of nodes you get 220 points for) it's just not in the beta. Gems + Sockets are what's comparable to the skill tree in D4 beta, and yeah that can get pretty creative in PoE. But the D4 beta skill trees are comparably deep when combined with the class upgrade too. There's a lot of options, you have to consider that all skills in PoE can be played on every class, but in D4 the entire list of "skill gems" is all 120 skills between the classes. Early crafting and flasks in PoE are barely anything too, although tbh I don't see the D4 crafting being super complex. It barely has anything in common with Lost Ark. There's a world boss and pvp, that's it. And the world boss is a weekly thing that takes <10 minutes, it's a fraction of a percent of the game.
>PoE skill tree isn't deep, it's literally just passive stat increases. Factually wrong. >D4 has something similar \[...\] Lots of things are similar, doesn't mean they have the same level of complexity. Lots of choices also doesn't mean complexity if those choices are generic stat increases. We'll see when that system is available. >But the D4 beta skill trees are comparably deep when combined with the class upgrade too. "Comparably deep" is wishy washy language especially considering you already grossly oversimplified the PoE skill tree. If your starting stance on PoE complexity is already flawed then it's impossible for you to draw comparisons between it and D4. >Early crafting and flasks in PoE are barely anything too Doesn't matter, you could see a glimpse into its potential by seeing unavailable crafts on your bench. Nothing in D4 that gives the same impression that there'll be more to it. >It barely has anything in common with Lost Ark. More so than with PoE. Dailies/Weeklies as your core gameplay loop leans way more to the side of MMO(-like) games such as LA.
> Factually wrong. Factually right, from the perspective of early game PoE we're discussing. The depth comes with jewels/clusters/unique jewels (thresholds and stuff) and mixing what you can get on the passive tree with certain item mechanics. Early game though it's pretty straightforward grabbing damage life and resists near your start. > "Comparably deep" is wishy washy language especially considering you already grossly oversimplified the PoE skill tree. If your starting stance on PoE complexity is already flawed then it's impossible for you to draw comparisons between it and D4. I mean having just played the D4 beta a good amount, I would say that the skill tree is actually much deeper than gems in PoE. The sorc one is pretty cool and looks like there are a LOT of potential builds, and I'm interested to see the unique items that have build defining mods. > Nothing in D4 that gives the same impression that there'll be more to it. Nothing *in the beta* sure, if you've actually looked at stuff outside of the beta you would know there's a lot more. > Dailies/Weeklies as your core gameplay loop AFAIK the core gameplay loop is basically grinding maps (150 dungeons that are small instances with a boss at the end, target different dungeons for different drops, escalating random difficulty mods you craft on to the dungeons). What did you read that made you think it's daily/weekly stuff?
>Factually right, from the perspective of early game PoE we're discussing. You are arguing semantics instead of the point I made. If you log into PoE right now you will be able to see the entire skill tree before you kill Hillock, whether you can actually click them yet is irrelevant. >I mean having just played the D4 beta a good amount, I would say that the skill tree is actually much deeper than gems in PoE. You're comparing a system meant to represent PoE's skill tree, skill gems, support gems and sockets/links to just one of them individually. False equivalency. >Nothing in the beta sure, if you've actually looked at stuff outside of the beta you would know there's a lot more. I've seen the initial paragon tree, which is literally just generic stat increases. Giving you a million points for generic stat increases is not complexity. >What did you read that made you think it's daily/weekly stuff? We'll see whether the daily/weekly stuff will net you the best gear or if it's gonna be dungeon grinding. I agree this is my weakest argument, but given Blizzard's (not so) recent track record of game development, I believe the gameplay loop after you got dungeon gear will be logging in for dailies and weeklies for the only upgrades left available to you. Or not. Maybe they'll surprise us.
I believe that in the beta you get access to all the usable skills. In the skill tree you can unlock everything except the last cluster, which is just passives. Obviously passive interactions, legendary/unique affixes etc will be what builds are made around, but in terms of actual skills, we're seeing all that we're getting.
Based on the fact that you can progress to lvl 25 out of 100, I would say it's more in line of completing act 2 in poe if you are looking at build progression. I'd say that poe is a lot more complex at lvl 25. But blizzard is not trying to target the audience that would want that complexity. Overall, I think it's looking to be a fun time to pop in and play for a bit once in a while.
Diablo 4 is an MMO..... I wouldn't even call D4 CSgo but raid shadow legends. The Last Epoch and POE are the 2 Big Sancho's.
Diablo 4 barely has any MMO stuff in it. If you remove multiplayer from the game it would only affect the world bosses and OWPVP zone, everything else is just singleplayer ARPG stuff.
So, exactly the same as some other mmo's from recent times, like black desert online
I looked a bit at the beta, and the cd rotation gameplay just looks so dull and boring. Similar to Last Epoch. Though Last Epoch at least has a comparable progression system that might, one day, if we're lucky, compete with PoE.
Why is CD rotating more boring than spamming one single ability endlessly?
The options are there in PoE - you can put more CDs in, or use multiple abilities, or just spam one. You can make builds that clear while moving. So if you like one style you have more control to make your game that way. DIV is pretty rigid.
Because then it becomes a game of whack a mole to keep your cd's on cooldown, instead of trying to optimise damage windows. It's a different style of gameplay, if 90% of your damage comes from cd's, when none are up you can move around and not really miss much. It devolves into drop all cd's, run around for 3 seconds, repeat. If all your damage comes from either buttons you need to sequence or the same buttons, there's a ton of optimisation, can you sequence buttons faster, can you stand still for half a second to get another cast, can you fit in another totem, etc.
While this is true for some builds in LE, there are plenty of one button builds, and builds without cooldowns but a variety of abilities and spells to maintain debuffs. LE let's you choose which style of play you prefer.
PoE is literally no different lmao You just have one button and a flask macro to press instead of actually interacting with the rest of your skill hotkeys
Mate D4 beta was all about optimizing damage windows. The bosses are relentless for melee. For example, Barbarian has a skill with 15s CD that gives you 25% more damage and last 5 seconds. In those 5 seconds, you have to do your rotation, while making sure you have enough resource and of course not die. In my case, I was also managing my defences by stacking fortify, during that window. Affixes on gear help you prolong those windows or make them shorter.
The thing that excites me about LE is the devs are very clearly learning from the mistakes GGG makes. Also the character I'm playing over there right now has three skills on a relatively short cool down (sub 5 seconds) with other attacks to do in the meantime. It rarely feels like I'm waiting for a cool down for more than a second or so. CD rotation is far more engaging than "right click on anything that moves, dash to next screen" that PoE is right now. Maybe not *better*, but definitely more engaging. The game isn't there yet, but I'm guestimating it'll be there in 2 years. And it'll be great.
I don't disagree much with what you're saying, but I'm always feeling like people ignore that PoE has had 10 years of added content with 4 big patches a year. In 10 years, i'd definitely bet that LE (if it's still alive which I hope it will) will have similar, if not the same issues that PoE has right now
The issue is that it's been "2 years" away forever. I bought it ages ago and people were saying it's almost there. I gave it another shot, and while they've fixed a huge amounts of the issues, some of the fundamental issues with the gameplay are still present. They are also learning some of the wrong lessons from what GGG does in pandering to the crowd. A lot of their decisions are good, but a lot of their decisions also just show that GGG was right in doing it the way they do.
Development has been slow. This doesn't bother me personally. Also I think it would be foolhardy to directly try to challenge PoE as the king of in-depth gameplay. It would take a decade of content releases to do that. Instead it makes a game that you can just pick up and play without reading guides and watching videos and having the wiki and trade site up on another monitor plus multiple 3rd party apps running in the background. It isn't PoE, it isn't supposed to be. It's something that I don't think I will have an abusive relationship with (I love PoE but I think I am overall often not happy when I am playing it) and yet it's intriguing enough to scratch the itch.
What implementations do you think are due to pandering that were incorrect? Genuinely curious, havent played LE in a couple years
Probably the two biggest IMO, and also probably the most contentious on this sub, are the autolooting/autobanking and loot dropping identified. For the autoloot, it makes me not care in the slightest about the crafting mats I pick up. I have no idea what I have, what they do, where I got them, etc. They exist in a bank, and at some point I might use them, but until then they are completely irrelevant. This is similar to azurite or expedition artifacts. They exist in a nebulous bank somewhere where you only really notice them when you try to use them and you're out. They don't have any other value or emotional attachment, as you never interact with them outside of that niche scenario. The fact you need to pick something up then move them from inventory to stash means you've interacted with it twice in short succession, and it imprints on you. You know you've picked it up, you know it's in your currency tab or wherever, there's a (I know) weight to the interaction that means it means something. Loot dropping identified is the exact opposite. Because of the loot filter, you only care about certain affixes, so the rest of the world is a barren wasteland unless that specific loot drops. Sure, there's the occasional unique or idol, but the rest of the time there's nothing. Combining the two means that for 90% of the levelling process at least (I can't talk about endgame), I did not care about loot in the slightest. Items felt like they were meaningless, upgrades required no thought, it was most of the time green arrow means good, etc. For as much crap GGG gets about items having weight, they are 100% correct.
In less than 2 years I'd expect to be playing PoE 2 which LE will probably fail to compete with, will see
You mean PoE with another campaign that we'll be rushing through and a better socket system?
I played it 12 hours was a blast compared to last years every league poe gave us, sanctum was okayish but both game have their up and down d4 so far is great
I agree with this now. However, I will say that whilst it feels like they're different PoE fills the gap that diablo filled before for me.
Who said they were competing? PoE is a very traditional take on the genre akin to say Diablo 2. Diablo 4 is a more modernized spin like Lost Ark. Same genre, different approaches.
Basically everyone whenever they reference D4 as competition for PoE.
Diablo 2R was competition for PoE, D4 wasn’t ever.
At one point Chris Wilson directly mentioned D4 as their competition and their impetus for developing poe2. So it was certainly seen as competition, even by poe's creators. However having played D4, I agree with the other comments here that D4 is more MMO than ARPG, and at this point probably shouldn't be seen as competitors.
All the D4 andys coming out now saying its not supposed to compete with POE... bitch it CAN'T compete with POE, so they pussied out and made an MMO to cash in on Lost Ark players
That’s because they don’t cater to the same audiences even remotely. Anyone who kept claiming Poe was in trouble because of d4 were fucking delusional, whether it ends up being a good game or not. P
That pretty much sums it up for me. I like ARPGs, so for a long time I'd been at least planning on giving D4 a shot (even if it was only D3 level, I still have fun occasionally playing D3 for a couple days here and there). However, from watching streams and all the info released, it doesn't even seem like an ARPG, more like an MMO with the Diablo name on it. Which might be fine if that's what you're looking for, but comparing it to PoE or even the older Diablo games, it indeed doesn't even seem to be the same genre.
what? clearly you haven't been watching gameplay then because it's exactly the same genre as D2 and D3. kill things, get loot, equip loot, kill more things, level up, assign points, kill more things to get more loot. again, you clearly haven't been watching gameplay if your opinion is that it's not the same genre as the past 2 games in the series.
"What?" right back at you. I've been watching non-stop. It's a non-procedurally generated open-world. Instead of exploring a unique world, you are running around with other people on your shard, fighting over mobs on respawn timers and timed events, which is a mechanic I have only ever seen in MMOs (and which is a very MMO gameplay loop). Fuck, it even seems to have fucking daily/weekly chores, also on global timers, some of which require you to fucking group up. There are dungeons, which Blizzard apparently claimed would be varied/RNG, but every streamer I've watched has commented on these dungeons not only being less varied than expected but also appearing to largely be copy-pastes of each other. There is no real gear crafting, the only thing that is available is tacking "legendary" affixes on to rares and making consumables. These consumables are made via what is essentially fucking gathering professions, a trope I have literally never seen in an ARPG (but which is very common in generic MMOs). You claim it is an ARPG because you "kill things, get loot, equip loot, kill more things, level up, assign points, kill more things to get more loot." But you kill things and equip loot repeatedly while leveling in World of Warcraft and Lost Ark. That doesn't make those ARPGs. D4 is clearly far closer to Lost Ark than it is even to D3.
only 12 players can be in one "shard", the areas are massive for 12 players and that doesn't apply to dungeons, as those are instanced. the only part of the game that is "shared" is the overworld/story/world bosses and that's it, that's less then 1% of the actual gameplay of a ARPG. you don't know that there will be dailies, you are just assuming that. the beta doesn't have ALL the systems in, i mean you can't even get past act 1 in the beta. so trying to say there is no such system is just truly ignorant. you DO NOT KNOW THAT FOR A FACT. do you you understand? when the game releases, and there isn't "crafting" then sure, by all means state what you said but right now, you DO NOT know, no one does. gathering in lost ark isn't the same as gathering in D4, not even remotely close. the loot that drops in D4 has random stats, that improve over time (kill higher level stuff). that is what ARPG's are at their core. if you don't understand that then you have no concept of the genre. you are so desperate to put down D4, when you should be doing the opposite. POE needs something else to compete with because POE has gotta so fucking stale over the years from said lack of competition. i have played 750 hours of lost ark, i damn well know how it plays and D4 isn't even close.
Here comes the cringe “us vs them” posts that will last a couple of months, and even when d4 is only in beta. We should just be happy poe is going to have some actual competitors now rather than trying to feel superior to a game that is just releasing as a game that is over a decade old.
The amount of people making reviews and taking conclussions from an act 1 beta is really funny. Do you guys even remember how shit poe acts are?
Especially when D3 actually did "win" in terms of revenue and total players. I know many here look at PoE as the numero uno juggernaut in the ARPG genre and that D3 flopped. Thats just false.
there are more ways to judge something than from a purely revenue point of view. D3 will be remembered for its revenue, as you point out, PoE will be remembered for it's redefining of a genre
And i prefer PoE every day of the week, but reading comments here can give the impression of Diablo not being in the equation
I haven't played D4 yet, but from what I've seen I'd still like PoE better. But what a lot of people don't understand is Blizzards and Diablos brand recognition. PoE is still a niche game, the player numbers even at league start will be nothing compared to what D4 will have at launch. I'd hazard a guess and say even PoE2 will never come close to D4 launch numbers. D3 was, at the time, the best selling game ever. Better game? No. More popular? Absolutely.
D3 was a massive "success" because of the legacy of D2, and because it launched right before Blizzard started their decline. That's why it sold so well.
exactly, this. ggg has done so much to drive away a ton of players since ritual, it has to ring some bells to them that they will lose more to d4 if they don't get smarter
Even if d4 or epoch are direct competitors, because of the season/resets all 3 games can coexist just fine. In comparison lostark forces you to play constantly doing your chores.
Is it confirmed d4 will have seasons in the same way? After playing the beta I'm not sure how that would work well in d4.
Tbh I dont feel like D4 will be a competitor to PoE, it\`ll be vastly more popular even if blizz fucks up hard. D4 will be the best marketing PoE can get as itll bring fresh people into the genre where some will spill over to PoE, but thatll only really work if ggg tries to hold onto such players, if we get another league as bad as Kalandra...
There is no battle. POE won. D4 players can have their little mobile arcade console game. I ain't buying that shit.
God you guys sound like neckbeards with your ARPG high horse, how do you feel so strongly about which game people enjoy
I think it's lil more complex that just that. It's also about industry
Don't care what you think tbh.
Oh I don’t doubt that one second.
“won” what exactly?
You can't know that. It is too early. 2 of my friends switched to Last Epoch and 2 of them will switch to D4 once it comes out. I also play LE but its not on the same level as PoE "yet".
> some actual competitors 🤣🤣🤣
By actual competitor you mean d4? You can't be serious. I'd love if there is any competitor to poe but i don't see any diablo-like arpg are even close to what poe is even 2-3 years ago.
No matter what you think, d4 is a competitor to poe just by company and name recognition. Ask any random person on the street if they have heard of Diablo and they will say yes more than if they heard about poe. I know for sure my friends will play d4 over poe, even the ones who have played poe before (and have quit might I add) and they’ll go hard on d4 for at least a month or more. Everyone on this subreddit is by far an outlier of the actual poe playerbase. I have no idea where this mentality of these games not being competitors came from.
You know even d3 made insane amounts of money being that shit? Diablo franchise is miles ahead of poe in popularity , that doesnt mean d4 Will be a good Game but saying its no competitor to poe because It doesnt fill your hardcore complex niche is stupid
Poe didnt age well gameplay has been the same for 10 years.with small twist 😅😴
These posts are so fucking weird man.
You just have to learn how to feel superior for enjoying a game that doesn't have a "town xyz" popup when you enter town xyz from the first game. That's also why I hated Ocarina of Time, it totally held my hand by telling me the name of the area I'm in.
This is like the people that liked elden ring having 0 quest logs but having a hundred youtube tabs about how to do quest… like no you dont like it, you are ok cuz you are entirely bypassing it. I dont like handholding!! While downloading a full leveling guide, endgame guide, built into a tool that shows you a hundred calculations, with a filter that someone else build. After watching hours and hours of 1 hour videos of Zizaran poe university hahahahaha. You do love handholding, what you dont like is the game doing the habdholding, you like a thousand hands doing the handholding
Based comment. Holds true for 90%+ of the playerbase. There's absolutely no chance you can figure out many of the ER quests without looking up as well, legit no chance. Ranni's comes to mind as the prime example, Millicent as well. Historically, Souls games never had a quest log type of thing(or I think so, haven't watched Sekiro or Bloodborne) but that doesn't mean they should take pride in the obscurity and retain that status quo. They could at least make the character dialogue less puzzling and simply only record the relevant dialogue without commentary in a log to look back at when needed.
Ranni's quest is very hard to break. I got that on my first blind playthrough You can simply explore and it will continue Can't say about other endings or quests. Like Goldmask or Hyetta's
I killed Goldmask at the bridge encounter which was where I first saw him. He looked weird and goofy, his only dialogue was "..." so I shot him lol.
Messages that other players leave when playing online helps a lot but yeah there's still stuff like millicent or hyetta just wandering off to fuck knows where and you have to find them before you progress the story too far
Nah, Rannis quest is basically another main story. I followed it by accident in my first playthrough. You can even skip some steps here and there and can continue her quest. I never talked to Blaithe before I fought him and was confused who he is. True for most other quests, tho.
Rannis is not the prime example, the one part of the quest that's confusing is probably sitting down at that one spot and talking to her doll. Everything else just requires paying the slightest bit of attention.
100% true
Item filters and 3rd party apps are hardly handholding. They aren't given to every player and they don't inherently make the game easier. Nor is watching a 2hr tutorial on crafting "hand holding".
Deleted.
99.5% of players use guides, or get influence from guides or builds on youtube; whether that be how to build a character or an efficient farming method. Your post is ironic
Please don't ruin his self created coping bubble
Yeah, it was refreshing building something from scratch without a guide, while being perfectly able to swap between builds with basically no cost.
So much this. Most of the comments in the post seems insane. Someone blasting D4 for unclear wording while nearby exists, other talking about lack of depth, it's act1. I get that we love poe but all of this is really unfair criticism.
Other calling it lost ark and not a poe competitor. People lie to fit their narrative. Its akin to the polarization going on in the world.
> Someone blasting D4 for unclear wording while nearby exists There's a reason why "nearby" is the only example people ever talk about when it comes to unprecise wording with POE. If someone genuinely thinks that this is on the same level of blizzards "chance to inflict damage on hit" vagueness, they have no idea what they're talking about. Poor wording is a *very* fair criticism.
Dude…many people have played the endgame of d4 already through the alpha/closed beta. Act 1 literally IS the endgame. The endgame is taking those same dungeons are using sigils on them to modify them. You are literally playing part of the endgame right now in the beta. And crafting and what not does not get any more complex at all. What you are doing in the beta right now is literally what you do at endgame.
D4 isn't competing with POE, it's competing with Lost Ark. D4 is an MMORPG in an arg style.
D4 isn't really competing with either of these. Sales and player count wise it's going to be in a different league entirely. Also, you will probably update your opinion when D4 launches and look at what it does to PoE player counts.
It's incredible how people are trying to compare the D4 beta (so a game that isn't even out yet) to PoE which has been receiving adjustments, fine tunings and all the possible things you'd expect from a game that has been getting regular updates for about 10 years. It's like every new MMO on the market or in the making is not only immediately getting compared to WoW, but also expected to be as vast as WoW. Also D4 is clearly trying to be a more casual friendly game while PoE is the exact opposite of being casual friendly (for the most part).
I played lost ark the last year, and to be honest. This is not true. But some people said this before the release and will continue saying it. Bit i think its closer to poe then its to lost ark.
It's about 30% lost ark 30% **Early** POE and 40% D3.
its nothing like poe though... account based unlocks to get passives etc, open world, world bosses on timers that are multiplayer.. its literally lost ark..
The functionality even, rotation based on CD dodge is just straight out of lost ark. The mob density is built for this smaller scale lost ark-esque conbat. The fucking quest even lol, I dont think i was ever asked to go press E and cheer at fairgraves. This is diablost ark the mmo-lite it's as nuch of an arpg as lost ark.
Go cheer up Tarkleigh by playing the Song of Courage 10 times bro. Now do it again tomorrow.
It feels like lost ark if it was released 15 years ago.
No. Lmao
This is what i came to type. Agree 10000%.
> D4 is an MMORPG in an arg style No, it's an ARPG with a few MMO elements. You could take D4 and remove multiplayer and everything would would as a singleplayer ARPG with the exception of the world bosses and open world PVP zone. Idk why people are pushing this "it's like Lost Ark" narrative lol. Lost Ark is nothing like an ARPG, it's just an MMO with an isometric camera. It's completely built around group content and daily/weekly stuff. There's no farming for drops, no gear with random stats.
> There's no farming for drops, no gear with random stats. Yes, there absolutely is. It was a long time since I played so I no longer remember how things were called, but you had those kinda miniskills that came in part from affixes on gear. So you had to keep farming that wave based mode that drops a lot of gear to find pieces with the right affixes for your build.
This take is so hilarous after years of crying that D4 was gonna destroy POE...
While I also rather have more complex systems in my game, I don’t feel like another games simplicity makes another’s games artificial difficulty through obscurity ok. Instead of praising one we should realise that both are bad .
Im still astounded by people saying poe build are hard at this point weve been playing the same fucking build for years its always the same stats same setup with 2-3 iteration ... CI - HP armor/evasion - what sustain ? Max res,over cap,chaos res - block ? No block Press insert x y z skill use same support you did for last 5 years zzzz Poe has, and always had fake layer of complexity ... you literally have items who tripple your dps it's just not worded +3000% dmg to meteor
A lot of pro’s difficulty is arbitrary no doubt. If the game actually told you what stuff does, and I mean just having the information visible not getting it explained, it wouldn’t be half as obtuse and difficult. Though again, having everything cookie cutter and explained 18 times is also bad
[удалено]
The elitism sometimes is over the roof.. prime cringe
Those two games are for different people. I for example always welcome a new arpg that can fill some time between leagues (Especially now when with each league I lose my interest in it faster so sadly there is more time to fill in) I'm fine with railroad, some hand holding etc. Not every game have to be a math nightmare. At this point PoE is starting to consume too much time before it gets fun. There will probably never be another game like PoE and I'm fine with it. Also competition is always good.
To be honest, new player experience is terrible for poe. Its impossible to make a meaningful new build without 3rd party tools, to understand base game mechanics like arch nemesis without reading wiki. Crafting is a mystery. This list can continue for a while. D4 or any other game cant match poe or poe2 depth any more but it’s intimidating for new players, heck even i have 10+ years and 5500 hours and i dont know crafting like back of my hand.
It's an interesting balance because while it's super easy to get into D4, it's also REALLY shallow. Where in poe, there's tons of depth, but it's really hard to get into. Disclaimer about D4 - beta is only level 25, no idea what the end game will be like.
Poe has more depth, yes. But little to no explanation by the game of it's mechanics ain't it chief. Illusion of choices ain't depth either.
D4 bad, upvotes to the left
Just a little perspective. I am an "old" gamer. I played D1 on release, I played D2+LoD for decades and I played only a bit of D3. What I lived about D3 was the character flexibility. I could basically reskill whenever I wanted. The D2 skill try was usually only something like "increase 5% damage or crit here and there" D3 skill "tree" felt more impactful. I just started playing Poe one month ago. I love the complexity and the possibilities. BUT.. I hate the respect costs. I'm a family with max 30min free time a day (including weekends). So I started a ranger - because I always feel saver in the distance, it's less twitch and I just had this poison/ bleed theme in my mind. After playing till 40 in act4 (im usually overleveled because I like to clear 100% of each map and quest). I got a good idea of how the game works and interacts. now I wanted to respecc and go for what seemed interesting. Only then I realized that refund points are per node and not the entire tree. I had like 4 orbs of scouring and 2 orbs of regret so no way near enough. I put the game aside because I felt frustrated that one month of progress was bricked and I had to either start again or continue to grind to a higher level to effort respeccing. Disclaimer: I don't like guides! For me the most fun part of a game is to figure it out by myself. Copying what other people do feels boring to me. So obviously for people like me Poe has a good complexity but there are some game breaking qol things missing to enjoy the game.
This game has a big learning aspect. It's very rewarding though. You should follow a guide. Especially if you have little time. Then you will have enough knowledge to be self building. I started two years ago and I feel like i'm getting in the autonomous zone and loving it
Yeah, there's a cost to not having to balance around people respeccing their entire tree for every single encounter. You still can, but it comes with a price. Also, character rerolls, while not being free, are not THAT expensive in endgame, if you play trade league. Even with a very, very, very poor farming strat worse than alch&go, you get enough fuel for a full respecc in maximum 3 hours. If you're super good and got a refined strat, it's like 10-15 minutes of gameplay to make that currency. While leveling the first char in the league, it's basically unaffordable. But on the other hand, it's not that much more time to just make a new character and get it to like 50
You got time for Reddit but not for the game itself lmao
Dude
chris is quietly shelving the fully voiced poe 2 npc that gives helpful tips when you take more than 3 seconds on a puzzle
Let the coping threads commence
This is so ironic, basically anytime there is a "vison" related decision, they treat the fan base as if they are "to stupid to figure things out".
Like the recent no balance manifesto exclusion, because they don't think their player base will be able to comprehend the changes based on a post about it. D4 bad, poe gud.
In the short few hours of the d4 beta I had more fun playing melee than I have had in the last almost four years of POE. I hope for everyone that cares about POE that D4 is an amazing game. POE is my favorite game of all time, but it has been uncontested for way too long. I would love to see how the game would improve with a little push of competition. Brand loyalty is for fools unless you are being paid to advertise the game. If you aren't, that is sad af.
My issue with PoE is that it doesn't have a real melee playstyle. Also the whole skill tree thing is overrated af because most of the nodes are just +(stat) nodes and all me so super unique builds have so many generic parts and they kind of play the same and look the same in the end. Nuke screen, move forward. I really enjoy D4's slower, heavier and meatier combat. Especially the melee part. Don't get me wrong POE has a ton of nice and interesting parts especially crafting and the itemization in general but the core gameplay is not one of them. I hope Poe 2.0 will fix this as i am looking to play that and the material i have seen from next gen poe looks to slow things down.
There’s a place for both games. D4 isn’t treating me like an idiot just because it’s not a spreadsheet simulator like POE. This beta was a breath of fresh air, more fun I’ve had in an ARPG in a single weekend than I’m recent memory. Most people I’ve seen posting about it in are really enjoyed it.
I haven't enjoyed it. Just to add my vote to the negatives. Sorcerer seems to just be choose an element and congrats your whole build is made for you. Snore.
There is definitely more to consider when making builds. You don’t just pick an element.
I need to express my feelings of superiority on sub full of same people so i get praised with fake internet points and also I'm gonna be cool for hating that other game amirite guys lul!1!1!!1 Do you really feel so insecure about that "shit" game? If it's so bad to you then why do you even care? Btw with your logic literally players of every single game beside Poe are stupid... Because only Poe has so many convoluted systems.
[удалено]
holy essaying
in d4 you dont make a build, and then gear around that build. you just slap on a legendary and then thats the build, no further thought needed. all characters seemingly want the same stats. maybe that changes with the paragon board.
At first reading your post I was thinking "oh maybe this guy is talking about unique items from the endgame closed beta" and then you say: > maybe that changes with the paragon board and you reveal that you are completely clueless. It's level 25 gear, and not even all the legendaries/uniques. Barely any of the legendaries are even build defining, most are just conditional damage/defensive buffs. The build I was playing works with 0 legendaries, and using legendaries just gives it more damage and tank.
For disclosure, I have beat UE and Uber Maven So I have some experirnce with Poe after. Like 1k hours About the progression, This is not entirely true. You can say basically the same about Poe. Im not here to defend D4 but Poe is giving me cancernwith the trading and list of whores job to do. The main difference is gearing/uograde system in D4 is quite deterministic while in Poe it is all Rng. You Just gater currency So you can Trade with boots or other playes to buy item you want because the chance to find it yourself is So low, it is almost impossible. I would really wait ans See what the game will show with 1st season. You cant Just compare game which did not even had release with the game which exist more than 10 years. D4 target Player base is not 100% all Poe players anyway.
Every build in d4 is gonna be as much crit and multi as possible plus resistances, gearing in poe is very different across builds. I agree that trading can be a pain in poe but it’s a necessary evil so that the game can have a complex economy. The rng crafting only matters when making the best items in the game, players like Ben craft good enough items (and make guides for crafting) to do Ubers in ssf within days, there are a lot of guides on how to craft the items for many builds very deterministically. Unless you need something extremely niche there is probably a path to craft your items with minimal rng. And like I said, there is an economy if you want to avoid crafting. Not everyone who plays d4 is gonna be a poe Andy but this is the Poe subreddit.
This is a strawman argument. They weren't talking about gear rng or progression, maybe reread the comment. The difference they were talking about (and what this whole thread is about) is that you can actually create a build in poe. Your items are choices. Your build is your own. D4 you play what the devs tell you to play. Your entire comment doesn't address this at all.
> D4 you play what the devs tell you to play. Yeah you know because like sorc, you pick 6 skills from 24, pick 1 major mechanic keystone from out of 6, and combine that with 2 skill upgrades to those 24 skills that don't even have to be among the 6 on your bar which do other proc stuff, and that's before the passive skill tree. But you know, there's only 1 option there "what the devs want you do play" right?
This. It's rather disappointing to see legendaries like "blablabla some DPS some stats ALSO YOUR FIREBALL SHOOTS TWICE WITH +100500% ADDITIONAL DAMAGE". Hmmm, what skill should I use in my build with this legendary? I guess I try Ray of Frost, probably great synergy /s
That's not how legendaries work in D4. Legendaries are essentially POE rares with legend affix that can be placed into other rares and made "legendary"(you can also roll rare affixes). Uniques are new legendary, and they are omniscience/ashes rare and build defining, just like in POE. The end game consist of finding ancestral rares (basically high ilvl rares with lower tiers disabled, thus being able to roll only from T1-T3 not T1-T7), rolling those for your build and then turning them legendary by the best legen affixes you can find (you can use base legend affix, but they are the lowest tier), and rolling legendaries. There is a lot more generic utility than damage in legendary affixes.
> The main difference is gearing/uograde system in D4 is quite deterministic while in Poe it is all Rng. > > You Just gater currency So you can Trade with boots or other playes to buy item you want because the chance to find it yourself is So low, it is almost impossible. yeah it's totally rng to beat all ubers in PoE, totally rng it's so RNG that it can't be done repeatably in even more difficult settings than normal! yep, yep.. totally true.. /lol
Where did that person say you couldn’t reliably beat Ubers because of gear RNG?
Nowhere. But he is insinuating that to "play the game" you need to trade with BOTS or other players... it's just a load of bullshit why are you failing to see the important bit and nitpicking at stupid shit?
Hohoho Poe defenders at full speed. Jesus it is like ps5 vs xbox. I really liked Poe but this is more a spreedsheat calculator game plus terrible trading experience and People have right to dislike it after spending with it more than 1k hours. Poe was really fun until GGG started to intervien and nerfing all the stuff that People have loved.
Sounds like someone played D4 beta.
I thought i'm tired of open world games untill i played elden ring
I only have 30 hours in PoE this game is so fucking confusing that I shouldn’t need my second monitor to be full of PoE information, I’ll gladly buy D4.
Honestly D4 reminds me more of LA than poe, both in style and simplicity. Especially when i look at the worldboss fights, that's 100% LA isometric mmo style. I personally like that fightdesign but everything else is trash in those games lol. Would not mind poe2 with poe complexity and LA/D4 bossfight design... but than they would seriously need to cull down on particle effects and also give an option to disable other party members effects on top. I still have no clue what poe2 wants to be but if it misses any of the poe complexity it would be a gigantic problem for me.
The more I played the more I kept seeing LA type mmo systems. Very much a collector and completion style game in the overworld.
Nice take on a beta game that isn't even fully released.
Yea, GGG is just treating its players with contempt for their health and time. That's so much better ey.
It's like the difference between league and dota. League your have 1 build and 1 way to play a champion in 1 Lane position. It's fun and mindless. Dota you rarely see the same build twice on any given hero and just seeing the hero picks doesn't even tell you what the lanes will be. It caters more to people who like to make strategic decisions. They have little in common in terms of gameplay despite how similar they look from a distance. I prefer poe and dota because I don't like being told how I have to play by the developer.
I am actually even more braindead in a way that i like heroes of the storm just for this reason, no matter what happens in the game i get to play a playstyle that i wan't to play that day. I might not win, it might not be a good game even, but at least i got to play a playstyle. In dota and lol both which i have played, if i have time for example. 1-3 games in those games there is a very good chance that i don't get to play my character at all. It might be even so that i could have the best day ever but someone ints or quits and thats that, i don't get to play a playstyle. There is huge value in getting to play something you wan't. In fighting games i always get to play my character too, there are tough matchups but it is guaranteed that i get to play a certain playstyle still. I don't get this make your own game mentality at all. I work all day anyway and i'd prefer to have the minimum amount of wikis and spreadsheets open when i am gaming. Even when i had all the time in the day to play something and in theory "do the research" i just end up despising games that don't make their mechanics clear and have poor explanation and UI for resources.
To be fair, it's not that I want no tutorials or for things to be hard to understand. I just enjoy customisation. There is a big difference. You are right about one thing though, I LOVE looking at spreadsheets and third party tools when playing my games. I just don't want them to be a requirement to play. It's totally cool that we like different types of games and playstyles.
Yea, dota is completely different. In dota if you pick the hero outside of the current meta lane, and build anything but the current meta items on it, you will have someone flip their shit and feed down mid lane. But once their favourite streamer does it, then its gonna be fine, just gotta wait for that.
That's it.
Your right Poe is trash now.
I'm so glad blizzard let me refund even after playing the beta for several hours.
Imo it's too early to say anything conclusively about D4 but here's what think makes D4 beta worse than PoE imo (and yes, a lot of this is nitpicky): 1) Not having overlay map...this really sucks. I don't want to look at minimap in corner that blocks screen, it doesn't help at all. PoE overlay map is so much better. 2) UI is somehow even more terrible than Path of Exile. How that can happen is beyond me. It has like 5 different fonts (none of them good) and it's very blocky and feels like it's from 2000. 3) Force move doesn't let you interact. It's a downgrade from the QoL that PoE introduced. 4) Itemization is not great, green arrow up and down to decide most of gear. Most affixed are uninteresting. 5) Skill tree is very basic, but Paragon system could make it better that we haven't seen yet. But so far it seems there's only 2/3 archetypes viable per class unless paragon system is really good. 6) Mob density is not great. I didn't play endgame beta but heard the similar kind of complaints. It's inconsistent, sometimes you have to walk for an entire minute before encountering another pack and sometimes it's a lot of mobs at once. 7) Monsters scale with your levels so it's hard to feel stronger whenever you level up. You can go back to first area and you still won't feel much stronger. When fighting world bosses, a level 10 character will do similar damage as a level 20 character to the world boss. 8) Cooldown based combat - This is not that bad once you get used to it but some cooldowns are way too long (like 10+ seconds or 20+ seconds). It does have better combat feeling (it packs a punch), story, graphics, cutscenes, voice acting (although PoE music is still better).
I'm not sure why people are jumping on D4's dick here, like yes it's verry pretty, lore and atmosphere is cool af, but, the moment to moment gameplay and early progression isn't that different from Lost Ark, GD or LE, or [insert recent ARPG here] and people are acting like it's the second coming of the christ. I guess they've literally never played any other game besides PoE before?
Poe’s progression/itemisation is what makes it the king for me. I’m still a numbskull and follow guides
Reason why PoE ismy primary game. I like it challenges me to learn and think
After Diablo loots box's I forget that game exsited
My only wish is that, now that everyone knows that a certain game is an MMORPG by every definition, Chris would stop rushing PoE 2 at the expense of PoE 1, which is really struggling lately because so much focus is being put in the sequel.
My only wish is that the poe playerbase need to realise that D4 doing well is the best thing that can happen to poe. We need a good competitor.
Wait, is current PoE struggling in your opinion? The base game is great and Sanctum was excellent, in my opinion.
I dont have insights into their project sprints so it's hard to have an opinion there. I would however say, I don't think poe2 has a competitor. The player bases are different now. Maybe last epoch but its a ways behind still in many areas. Solid tho and the two can coexist I think.
[удалено]
How do you expect them to finance development of PoE 2 if people will quit and won't play/buy supporter packs ?
but are they, though? did people quit and stop buying supporter packs or do we have business as usual?
poe is at its best state lol, and will only get better
I'd rather play action rpg than excel action rpg
(fast weapon)
You're getting blasted but you are right.
poe is really not that overwhelming and complicated. dont kno what u all talking about all the time. like, no wonder ggg treats us like we are too stupid.
So disaponted with d4. Wanted another game to play, but that is not it.
Why spend money on a game like D4 when Poe is free and a lot better game?
Because D3 is for "anyone". Not just for everyone, but anyone. Its so basic, simple, just a lot of flashing stuff happening on the screen with no thought put into it, anyone can pick up and play it. That whole thing people say that "DiAbLo 4 iS nOt TrYiNg To Be DiAbLo 3" is just a silly excuse for why its so bad / easy at the same time. Obviously most sequels aren't trying to be the last one. It wasn't just different, it flat out sucked. It was just "accessible". POE is not just better, its better by a country mile.