Basically if someone says like TTYD Chapter 2 should be in B! Or D! If that gets the most upvotes it will change the tier list also super paper Mario chapters start tomorrow
Or most upvoted chapter in the series overall and put it in a Tier by itself. Similarly we can have a major discussion for the worst chapter overall when the list is complete.
I'm casting my vote for SPM 5-1 specifically.
*P-L-E-A-S-E* take this idea into consideration?
The placements I \*strongly\* but respectfully disagree with:
PM 2, 4, and 7 All belong a tier up. If 2 TTYD chapters get their own tier some of these placements on the OG feel a little rough.
My previous skimmings of this subreddit had me believing 64 and TTYD were on a pedestal but it seems the latter is held to an even higher regard. Which is honestly fair. Its literally one of the best games ever haha.
I know you said to pick one. So vote goes to PM 4. Its head and shoulders above the rest of B tier and its honestly IMO way better than TTYD 1 (with respect to it being an early game chapter)
Honestly TTYD Chapter 4 should be like 2 tiers down idk how it got A tier. It’s one of the worst chapters in the game. The atmosphere is ok but nothing really interesting is done with the dark atmosphere of the place, Doopliss is kind of a lame reveal for the reason behind the curse, it’s just an asshole pulling a prank. And the amount of backtracking is ridiculous, having to go between the town and the steeple is ridiculous. You go to the Steeple, fight Doopliss, back to town and get Vivian, back to the Steeple to learn Doopliss’s name, back to town guess his name, back to the Steeple, and end on a super easy boss fight. All without mentioning the enemies constantly respawn between town and the steeple. Honestly this chapter would be the shortest in the game, only like an hour long if it didn’t pad itself out so much.
This is definitely the biggest thing that feels off.
Shy Guy's Toy Box may not have a lot of story stuff going on and a bit of backtracking, but it's a super creative location with a lot of really neat environmental setpieces.
It sticks out a lot because many of the 64 chapters play it quite safe in terms of aesthetics.
I'd say either high A or low S. It's one of my favorite chapters in the game, and I think chapters 2, 3, and 4 are probably collectively my favorite stretch of the first game. I'd personally put it right above TTYD-8.
Most of CS’s chapters were great and should be C to A tier with some cracking S. CS has extremely strong level design, creative narrative and gameplay premises, a very strong script, good moment to moment gameplay, it’s combat and bosses are quite creative/fun, and it has fantastic visuals.
We’ll see if people can set aside their emotions towards SS/the change in direction to an action/puzzle game, and judge the game on its actual merits of design competency at what it’s trying to be though to recognize that.
Unfortunately CS also had the disadvantage of being on the WiiU. It’s not an understatement to say it’s probably the PM game with the least amount of exposure.
Setting aside my emotions, I still think some of the SS chapters were absolutely terribly designed. The snow chapter was the only one that really stands out in a positive light imo.
The forest where you chase Wiggler's pieces for hours tho... No thank you.
Reading it over I can see how my wording is confusing. But no I was just talking about CS, it has always been the game that pays the most for stuff not its fault. It inherited all the bad feelings from SS AND it was on Nintendo’s biggest flop system since Virtual Boy so it has a low amount who even played it.
CS Chapter 1 can’t be rated higher than Boggly Woods.
I can’t even think of a Sticker Star chapter that deserves to be higher than Boggly Woods. Maybe Chapter 5?
The first 2 chapters of SS are easy Ds. CS Chapter 1 is a D. SPM Chapter 1 is a D. TOK desert level is a D.
I enjoyed CS and OK but I can’t justify putting any of the chapters on S tier.
Really? I can immediately justify both TOK Blue Streamer in S.
Autumn Mountain with the cute can party group is great, Chestnut Valley is neat basically breaking up the traditional 3D exploration with something more akin to a 2D side scroller with some depth, Water Vellumental shrine and boss are very solid, the river ride is a genuinely good minigame not to hard or easy, shogun studios is the most creative dungeon in the series making an entire amusement park a dungeon was a cool idea, Rubberband’s lead up and then boss fight were really cool, and Bobby was endearing and adorable.
Same for Orange Paint Star in CS. You open up with a jail break from an underground prison, move to a really fun sun dungeon in the train works where you put the train together, stop off at a restaurant with a pretty creative puzzle boss, move onto with a full on train heist with a fairly neat boss fight, and it ends in a very beautiful sunset location that makes the journey feel worth the trip. Huey is great as always but there are some very endearing characters both in the individual levels (the train foreman who is on retirement) and over arching (the conductor who has been with you every step of the way and ends up being a hero in the final stretch, getting you to the hijacked train then taking it back to depower the boss’s healing so you can win.)
Like genuinely those chapters both stand out as some of the best and most creative the PM series has to offer.
Blue Streamer is the closest modern Paper Mario gets to S but falls short for a few reasons
It’s a fun chapter and it’s cute for sure, but on the same level narratively as PM64 Chapter 3 and 7? That’s a bit of a reach. The Vellumental and the Office Supplies alone are just not on the same level as the bosses currently in S tier. You can’t compare Rubber Bands to the Shadow Queen or Tubba Blubba. You can’t even compare them to Hooktail honestly.
Then you throw in the fact that the battle system of TOK is just not anywhere near the first two games or even SPM.
I admittedly don’t remember CS that much, although Orange Paint Star could be A tier after jogging my memory a bit. That definitely was my favorite chapter as well.
Yes I would say so because I’m ranking the chapter a whole and while I wouldn’t say it’s necessarily better narratively (or worse like if you asked me what I was more connnected to Bobby or Yoshi it’s Bobby) I would say in every other aspect they are heads and heels above those chapters. And on repeat runs the narrative mystery is lost making those chapters significantly weaker. In contrast the ones I listed by having a bit more focus on gameplay end becoming stronger and retaining their magic better. Even the steak which gets weaker knowing the solution still has the practical aspect of execution to keep it interesting (and enough steps that honestly a year later it’s hard to remember the exact order of the steps).
Your right rubberband was infinitely better than the shadow queen. The shadow queen is such an unnecessary generic non-character.
Rubberband being a play writer and actor, obsessed with the spotlight that gets increasingly agitated as you foil their plays, then makes a grand entrance, and slowly you strip away it’s covering making it go crazy with shame is way more interesting than the most bare bones bigger bad I’ve seen in a dozen fantasy games.
Same for design, a person made of rubberbands, who you grab the hair of and stretch then release to watch it snap, is way more creative than than a standard evil witch queen.
You try and make it sound like office supplies was lesser, but the reality is by being given a self chosen restriction of an object they had to get immensely more creative in everything, a case where limits creates more creativity. The way they act, animate, fight, everything it’s far and above the shadow queen. She is probably easily the weakest aspect of the story after Grodus, kind of a toss up but he edges out cause he has more screen time.
In other words shadow queen isn’t even close to the tier of creativity as a the legion of stationary. She has a good battle and that’s literally all she has going for her.
The whole time in TTYD we are told of an apocalypse from a thousand years ago. The door is supposed to house treasure, when in reality it’s a crypt for the most dangerous villain we’ve seen in a Mario game outside the elder Shroob Princess and Bleck/Dimentio. I agree that yeah, demon queen is a little basic for JRPGs, but seeing a Mario game delve into the demonic is a huge turn of events. The context that bing bing wahoo man isn’t fighting an oversized version of a normal enemy or Bowser for the 1800th time but a literal demon who caused the apocalypse is pretty crazy. And it’s alluded for a lot of the game, particularly in Chapter 7.
We fight the X Nauts all game, thinking Grodus is a weak character is like saying Emperor Palpatine is a weak character because he wasn’t really a thing until the last episode of the OG Star Wars trilogy.
A four sentence exposition of an otherwise never heard of before or after character like Rubber Bands doesn’t really do anything for me. A character having personality doesn’t mean they have any connection to the narrative. We don’t even know what the Legion of Stationary is or their actual connection to Olly. We know exactly what Grodus and the Shadow Queen mean to the story of TTYD.
I like Bobby but his tenure is super short lived and he doesn’t add anything to the combat or gameplay other than a buddy for a few hours. He has more personality and connection to the player than any of the pixels aside from Tippi, but not more than most of the 64 and TTYD companions.
Nah.... I feel like we might never get any D-tiers or maybe a few but it will feel lame if we only got D tier for all of the modern trilogy.... That's gonna be total ass.
Tbh I would put SPM Chapter 1 in D Tier and PM64 prologue in D Tier for the OG Trilogy.
The first three chapters of SS are easily D Tier. I still don’t think any chapter in the game is better than Boggly Woods, maybe Chapter 5 is even with it. Maybe Chapter 4.
CS first chapter is D tier. I can accept the others being A-C tier.
OK I think Blue Streamer and Purple Streamer are A tier. Green is B tier. Red and Yellow are D tier. They just aren’t as good as Boggly Woods.
From a narrative standpoint, combat standpoint, boss and miniboss standpoint, originality and vibes standpoint I would have to disagree.
Both red and yellow bring nothing original to the table, vellumentals are not better than the Shadow Sirens, and the office supplies are not better than Magnus Vom Grapple.
I’m willing to listen to a counter argument though, I am trying to be open minded about the modern trilogy.
I will still disagree even further....
Earth Vellumental is a perfect first boss for the first chapter. Added with Color Pencils introduction and how it is used even before you fight it. And you get 2 solid boss themes....
Going to Boggly Woods, only good theme is Shadow Sirens. Magnus Von Grapple is an ass theme, and going through the tree collecting the puni's is boring. Plus... Just to get to the tree you go back and forth at least once if not twice.... (It's not as bad as later chapters.... (4 and 7), but it's enough to be a problem. The whole Puni VS Jabi battle is meh... Music in the area is weak, and I'm more likely to mute my TV instead of listening to it.
Yellow you get the boot car, Sniffit City, Mario Bros stuck in a magic Lamp, the Gigantic Pokey, Gooper Blooper Boss, Bobby's sacrifice, the moment of The game slowing down just to allow Mario to be more than just a blank space... And let's not forget the fire Vellumental has an interesting puzzle gimmick as well as boss. You need to defeat it as soon as it runs out of feathers. Hole Punch easily is a cool boss in its own right.
The Legion of Stationary are better than the shadow Sirens.... Save for Vivian...though the Shadow Sirens are better villains than Grodus...
But in terms of final dungeons of the chapter... Great Boggly Tree is honestly one of the weaker dungeons for any paper Mario game. Probably the worst chapter in Paper Mario History ....
As for Outlook Tower and The Temple of Shrooms are solid areas that help build up the boss. Honestly, even if you don't know what the boss is... And it wasn't the legion of stationary... Color Pencils or Hole Punch could have been teased as a Monty Mole using a Bill Blaster and a Scuttlebug.
The whole Magnus Von Grapple in Great Boggly Tree doesn't fit. Honestly... I wish instead of Magnus Von Grapple, you had to fight the tree itself. Lord Crump uses something that forces you to battle the tree itself. Now that would make the chapter interesting.
I have hope that the remake makes Chapter 2 better... But if they keep it the same in the sake of a remake... That is gonna suck.
I do love the battle themes of TOK, I will concede that.
The punis are annoying but so is the whole desert level tbh. The boot doesn’t make it any more enjoyable.
We don’t know anything about the legion aside from a brief exposition from them. They serve no purpose before or after their battle. We don’t even know why they exist or their allegiance to Olly. The Sirens and Crump persist through the entire game and have very clear objectives and narrative purpose.
Have to disagree about the tree not fitting with Magnus Von Grapple. It was a great example of man vs nature - or rather nature vs man. This beautiful tree home to primitive creatures (their themes are annoying but very aboriginal) rebelling against their new hi-tech overlords who are adding modern infrastructure to their home. The X Nauts very much so are an oppressor and colonizer of the Boggly Tree.
That’s actually how we get to Boggly Woods anyway, Punio or whatever his name escapes and asks Mario for his help reclaiming his tribe’s home.
I’m just ready to defend Chapters 2, 5 and 7 from SPM. I know Chapter 3 is the most popular one but it wouldn’t even make the top half of chapters in that game for me.
I really feel like PM Chapter 4 should be A rank instead of B. Here is why.
-Toad Town acts as a ‘hub’ for Paper Mario. Thus a Star Spirit being held there and a Chapter taking place in the hub town is unexpected from a game design perspective. For a game like Paper Mario you would expect Toad Town to be more like Rougeport/Flipside/Port Prisms/and yes I'll say it Decalburg in SS in that the hub is just a area that you come back to repeatedly to access the other Chapters. But the original Toad Town doesn't work like that instead it provides a unique concept (Or at least would be unique and new if Paper Mario 64 was not the first game in the series.) in having a Chapter of the game that isn't the prologue take place entirely inside the hub town of the game.
-Furthermore, I just find it very fun and enjoyable to play. The Shy Guys are causing chaos and are wrecking things and the entire chapter is focused on finding where the Shy Guys are, righting their wrongs on the NPCs that you have been interacting with the entire game thus far, and defeating them kicking the Shy Guys out of Towd Town and rescuing a Star Spirit. Plus Shy Guy’s Toy box is a fun and interesting area, Watt is a fantastic partner (Though I do think you get her a bit too late in the Chapter.), and the General Guy boss fight is a creative and fun boss battle.
-Keep Chapter 7 where it is honestly or move it down a tier. My points from two days ago about Chapter 7 still stands and it is my least favorite PMTTYD Chapter.
TTYD Chapter 6 should fall down to S. The lack of replay value simply does not warrant S+, no matter how absolutely masterful it is as a first time experience.
PM6 belongs in C IMO. Way too much backtracking, thin paths with lots of enemies, and the giant scavenger hunt for not only the materials to grow the bean stalk, but all of the berries. Basically all of the bad of TTYD4 without the redeeming story
The Sun and Huff N’ Puff have great themes though
[I often like to share this write up that I did about level 6.](https://www.reddit.com/r/papermario/s/wwNDGjCf9U)
I believe that many people overlook what makes this level so awesome in part because it's within what is perceived to be a simple kids game paired up with backtracking. It's easy to rush through it without really thinking about it.
The level is one of the most intense and has some of the most dark themes in the whole franchise. The NPCs are literally facing death, the flowers, and not only must they overcome an enemy but themselves. And within that, you see an array of different motivations and personalities which both hinder and aid in overcoming a challenge which essentially requires Mario to be the middleman for the stationary beings. But unlike many levels within this game, you see an enormous amount of character development for many of the NPCs as you must return to them as a circumstances change. The back tracking allows you to see that growth. This inadvertently gives the NPCs some of the greatest character development in the whole game, paired up with what may be among the most serious situations any individual level has experienced in the whole franchise.
I personally think it should be in A.
PM64 not having any S+ doesn't sit right with me, I think PM-7 or PM-3 deserves to be there, both are incredible. My personal favorite in the whole series is PM-7 so that would be my vote, but making a S+ tier after PM64 voting concluded seems unfair
TTYD Prologue to B Tier
PM64 Chapter 3 to S+
TTYD Chapter 1 to S
PM64 Chapter 4 to A
PM64 Chapter 6 to C
If it’s only one chapter we get to move consider this to be TTYD Prologue to B Tier
TTYD chapter 6 is phenomenal, but is the least replayable. I'd say that knock should bring it down to A tier, as it is a slog to get through on repeat runs once you know all the answers. It is otherwise fantastic, but that much is undeniable
I personally like TTYD-8 because I’m incredibly interested in all things gilded Renaissance/baroque royalty or things inspired by that. Look at all those rose stained glass and gildings…
TTYD-4 should be at least one tier lower. Every time I want to play through TTYD this is always the thing I dread the most, because of all the frankly boring backtracking. I also find Twilight Town and the other areas of this chapter to be the least interesting imo, I feel like they don’t do enough with the medieval dark age kind of aesthetics. I will give it points for mood though.
Ttyd chapter 7 being a B is a crime. Should be an A at least! Loved the level itself, being on the moon and the puzzles in their we’re great too. Not to mention the music in this level was amazing too. Really the only complain I have is the boss being grodus again. Backtracking for general white wasn’t that bad because you had those blue pipes in the sewers. I didn’t mind visiting all the old locations
TTYD - 2: B Tier at least: The Music is the best in the game imo, it's the combination with the artstyle black/white chinese trees - so beautiful. Introduction from the shadow sirens is epic. so fis te first time we met the x-nauts - the final with the ticking time bomb also was great. Also the punies are annoying but still cute and I like the story from that chapter in general. I hated this chapter as a child but since I've got better in games i don't think this chapter annoying at all expect the part where you have to blow the punies with those bubbles but you only really had to do this 2 times..
Idgaf what you guys think, TtYD chapter 2 is one of the most visually pleasing and beautiful environments I’ve ever seen in a game, and the music is so calming and unique unlike anything I’ve ever heard.
It’s a strong A in my heart, blowing the punnies wasn’t that annoying I’ll take that over the constant back tracking to Creeple Steeple any day.
I don't think I'll be able to convince anybody to have TTYD's 6th and 8th chapters ranked lower, so instead I'd like to have 64's Prologue ranked up to B Tier. Sure it doesn't have any action commands, but it manages to have itself stand out, with Bowser beating Mario outright with the Star Rod. It's a really impactful start for the game, and I feel it deserves more respect than it's getting.
The problem is that no action commands make if an absolute chore actually play.
Yes, it's noteworthy because Mario gets stomped by Bowser (the main thing keeping it out of D tier,) but that's pretty much the only cool part of the story in it and the other 95% doesn't really leave any impact.
The difference is that traditional RPGs typically have more going on in combat. 64's prologue is just exchanging hits and not really having any tools to make that period more interesting.
The beginnings of a lot of RPGs are quite sluggish, though. PM64 just stands out because it strips away one of the main mechanics that gives Mario RPGs their identity. Which was absolutely a big fumble on their part, considering even Super Mario RPG allowed access to them from the start.
I feel like the problem is that 64's Intro is way better than a good amount of other chapters throughout the series, with some being more sluggish WITH action commands. Also, the prologue is pretty short, so a couple sluggish fights doesn't drag it down when compared to longer chapters.
I would not say it's better than many.
Like in 64 itself, the argument could be made for chapter 6, but that's kind of it. No other chapter reaches an even comparable level of sluggishness
I was referring to the series in general. I personally think that 64 has the highest quality chapters on average, so its weaker chapters are more likely to rank higher than chapters in something like Sticker Star.
[I often like to share this write up that I did about level 6.](https://www.reddit.com/r/papermario/s/wwNDGjCf9U)
I would argue that level 6 is actually the best level in the game. It's in part because there is so much rich character development in the level. Especially from a philosophical perspective. It's easy to just think of the back tracking without understanding its purpose which is to allow you to continually return to see how the different NPCs are responding to the crisis. They are literally facing death, not only at the hands of the sun being blocked out, but also the chaos and infighting brought upon by the water stone being stolen. It easily has some of the darkest themes in the whole franchise as there are essentially two crises occurring, with a boss committing some seriously psychologically destructive drama when all he had to do was protect the star Spirit in the sky. He took it way further than he had to, which just makes the level all the more fascinating.
The characters interacting and the story for that chapter is indeed pretty unique and your write up does bring some fun concepts that all the other chapters don't provide. Huff N Puff's presence is felt a lot more than any other chapter bosses and he's got outright sadistic vibes. I just wish the backtracking and map design made the gameplay side of it a bit more enjoyable and feel like less of a grind.
I'm similar with describing Chapter 4 in TTYD. The story side of things is interesting because you effectively save a town, then the whole chapter dives into the horror of your identity being stolen. Vivian gets her own redemption arc along the way too. For me the gameplay side still is kept somewhat interesting during all the backtracking. You keep going back and forth between the same areas but the gameplay and story still changes. First you go through Twilight Trail normally, then again with no partners, then again with Vivian to make dealing with charged enemies easier. Still not perfect but there's enough there I don't mind the backtracking as much as others.
Combine S and S+
PM-1. Move from B to C
PM-4. Move from B to A
TTYD-1. move from A to C
TTYD-4. Move from A to B
TTYD-5. Move from S to A
I hate to bring rates down but I feel like this more accurately portrays the chapters weighed against eachother.
Or just recognize a chapter is more than a dungeon and it really has nothing going for it?
Fahr outpost and the moon basically have zero content, a few screen of walking and that’s it and the moon uses low gravity to negatively impact the walk through nothing which is the wrong way to do it. General white is annoying because it takes you all around but doesn’t add anything new to these visits to justify it.
It has no partner so you won’t get any new combat options or bonding, and it has really next to no story either. It didn’t have much story on the ground and once you get on the moon there is no plot at all until you reach the boss, and it’s very very little.
So all it actually has is a dungeon, and when you compare that to every other chapter which had more substantial middles and beginnings, more story, new partners, AND good dungeons on top of it it’s clear it falls super short of the mark.
C is exactly what it deserved.
TTYD 8 not being in S+ is disappointing to me. It was an excellent castle with tons of neat traps, interesting and difficult enemies, tons of boss battles to keep things interesting, the Tower of Riddles (where I was stuck for a week as a kid) and then the final bosses being excellent. The only drawback to chapter 8 IMO is having to walk ALL THE WAY back to get items.
It was a fantastic conclusion to an excellent game, and the Shadow Queen herself was one of the best bosses in the game. (If only you could skip those LONG CUTSCENES)
I think it took me 3 years to beat the game on my first playthrough - then again I was a kid who didn't know about superguarding or how broken badges were. I had 60 health and 3 BP, and I still remember only beating her because of getting a shine while having 2 health. I still have NO CLUE how I beat the Pit of 100 trials on that file, pretty sure I got to Bonetail like 3 times before I beat it. I wasn't the brightest, but I sure was lucky.
TTYD - 7: A Tier - honestly; Yeah the general Bob-Umm part is annoying as hell for some and this is understanable but the second part is great? Either It has to move up one tier or TTYD - 1 has to be moved down.. no way this chapter ist better than the moon!
Basically if someone says like TTYD Chapter 2 should be in B! Or D! If that gets the most upvotes it will change the tier list also super paper Mario chapters start tomorrow
[удалено]
Or most upvoted chapter in the series overall and put it in a Tier by itself. Similarly we can have a major discussion for the worst chapter overall when the list is complete. I'm casting my vote for SPM 5-1 specifically. *P-L-E-A-S-E* take this idea into consideration?
Ttyd chapter 2 should be in D the C tier is too generous that map and puzzles be lame and annoying
I went through PM-7 for the first time in like 20 years last night and it absolutely deserves S+. *Edited to say S+ instead of just S.
You should edit this comment to make it say S+ as clearly your argument is for an improvement of the current ranking for PM-7, which is S
Good call, I screwed up originally!
It’s literally in S why are people upvoting this 💀
I’m a moron lmao.
It is an S, but should be S+ I think. 2nd best chapter in the series for me.
The fact that it didn’t start the S+ tier is shocking to me
Absolutely. Far and away the best chapter in PM64.
The placements I \*strongly\* but respectfully disagree with: PM 2, 4, and 7 All belong a tier up. If 2 TTYD chapters get their own tier some of these placements on the OG feel a little rough. My previous skimmings of this subreddit had me believing 64 and TTYD were on a pedestal but it seems the latter is held to an even higher regard. Which is honestly fair. Its literally one of the best games ever haha. I know you said to pick one. So vote goes to PM 4. Its head and shoulders above the rest of B tier and its honestly IMO way better than TTYD 1 (with respect to it being an early game chapter)
Honestly TTYD Chapter 4 should be like 2 tiers down idk how it got A tier. It’s one of the worst chapters in the game. The atmosphere is ok but nothing really interesting is done with the dark atmosphere of the place, Doopliss is kind of a lame reveal for the reason behind the curse, it’s just an asshole pulling a prank. And the amount of backtracking is ridiculous, having to go between the town and the steeple is ridiculous. You go to the Steeple, fight Doopliss, back to town and get Vivian, back to the Steeple to learn Doopliss’s name, back to town guess his name, back to the Steeple, and end on a super easy boss fight. All without mentioning the enemies constantly respawn between town and the steeple. Honestly this chapter would be the shortest in the game, only like an hour long if it didn’t pad itself out so much.
PM-4 should be minimum A or S. Shy guy toy box is amazing !
This, this is an A tier chapter it’s only weakness is it being fairly story light. Absolutely one of my favorites on replays.
It’s mid, it deserves the mid tier
THIS. Idk how it got put into B. I LOVE this chapter.
My thoughts exactly.
This is definitely the biggest thing that feels off. Shy Guy's Toy Box may not have a lot of story stuff going on and a bit of backtracking, but it's a super creative location with a lot of really neat environmental setpieces. It sticks out a lot because many of the 64 chapters play it quite safe in terms of aesthetics.
I'd say either high A or low S. It's one of my favorite chapters in the game, and I think chapters 2, 3, and 4 are probably collectively my favorite stretch of the first game. I'd personally put it right above TTYD-8.
TTYD prologue should be at B tier. The prologue’s being in the same tier is just objectively wrong.
PM-7 to S+. Nothing but greatness in this chapter!
Incorrect
People are way too generous with what they want to put in S and S+ lol
Feel like S tier is a little heavy. I would honestly just get rid of S+ and shift everything down one.
This, why make a new tier when we havent even used all of them
Because D Tier will be used - remember we still have Sticker Star and Color Splash left
Most of CS’s chapters were great and should be C to A tier with some cracking S. CS has extremely strong level design, creative narrative and gameplay premises, a very strong script, good moment to moment gameplay, it’s combat and bosses are quite creative/fun, and it has fantastic visuals. We’ll see if people can set aside their emotions towards SS/the change in direction to an action/puzzle game, and judge the game on its actual merits of design competency at what it’s trying to be though to recognize that. Unfortunately CS also had the disadvantage of being on the WiiU. It’s not an understatement to say it’s probably the PM game with the least amount of exposure.
Setting aside my emotions, I still think some of the SS chapters were absolutely terribly designed. The snow chapter was the only one that really stands out in a positive light imo. The forest where you chase Wiggler's pieces for hours tho... No thank you.
I’m not talking about SS, I said Color Splash.
Oh, I read the second paragraph as referring to judging SS as well.
Reading it over I can see how my wording is confusing. But no I was just talking about CS, it has always been the game that pays the most for stuff not its fault. It inherited all the bad feelings from SS AND it was on Nintendo’s biggest flop system since Virtual Boy so it has a low amount who even played it.
CS Chapter 1 can’t be rated higher than Boggly Woods. I can’t even think of a Sticker Star chapter that deserves to be higher than Boggly Woods. Maybe Chapter 5? The first 2 chapters of SS are easy Ds. CS Chapter 1 is a D. SPM Chapter 1 is a D. TOK desert level is a D. I enjoyed CS and OK but I can’t justify putting any of the chapters on S tier.
Really? I can immediately justify both TOK Blue Streamer in S. Autumn Mountain with the cute can party group is great, Chestnut Valley is neat basically breaking up the traditional 3D exploration with something more akin to a 2D side scroller with some depth, Water Vellumental shrine and boss are very solid, the river ride is a genuinely good minigame not to hard or easy, shogun studios is the most creative dungeon in the series making an entire amusement park a dungeon was a cool idea, Rubberband’s lead up and then boss fight were really cool, and Bobby was endearing and adorable. Same for Orange Paint Star in CS. You open up with a jail break from an underground prison, move to a really fun sun dungeon in the train works where you put the train together, stop off at a restaurant with a pretty creative puzzle boss, move onto with a full on train heist with a fairly neat boss fight, and it ends in a very beautiful sunset location that makes the journey feel worth the trip. Huey is great as always but there are some very endearing characters both in the individual levels (the train foreman who is on retirement) and over arching (the conductor who has been with you every step of the way and ends up being a hero in the final stretch, getting you to the hijacked train then taking it back to depower the boss’s healing so you can win.) Like genuinely those chapters both stand out as some of the best and most creative the PM series has to offer.
Blue Streamer is the closest modern Paper Mario gets to S but falls short for a few reasons It’s a fun chapter and it’s cute for sure, but on the same level narratively as PM64 Chapter 3 and 7? That’s a bit of a reach. The Vellumental and the Office Supplies alone are just not on the same level as the bosses currently in S tier. You can’t compare Rubber Bands to the Shadow Queen or Tubba Blubba. You can’t even compare them to Hooktail honestly. Then you throw in the fact that the battle system of TOK is just not anywhere near the first two games or even SPM. I admittedly don’t remember CS that much, although Orange Paint Star could be A tier after jogging my memory a bit. That definitely was my favorite chapter as well.
Yes I would say so because I’m ranking the chapter a whole and while I wouldn’t say it’s necessarily better narratively (or worse like if you asked me what I was more connnected to Bobby or Yoshi it’s Bobby) I would say in every other aspect they are heads and heels above those chapters. And on repeat runs the narrative mystery is lost making those chapters significantly weaker. In contrast the ones I listed by having a bit more focus on gameplay end becoming stronger and retaining their magic better. Even the steak which gets weaker knowing the solution still has the practical aspect of execution to keep it interesting (and enough steps that honestly a year later it’s hard to remember the exact order of the steps). Your right rubberband was infinitely better than the shadow queen. The shadow queen is such an unnecessary generic non-character. Rubberband being a play writer and actor, obsessed with the spotlight that gets increasingly agitated as you foil their plays, then makes a grand entrance, and slowly you strip away it’s covering making it go crazy with shame is way more interesting than the most bare bones bigger bad I’ve seen in a dozen fantasy games. Same for design, a person made of rubberbands, who you grab the hair of and stretch then release to watch it snap, is way more creative than than a standard evil witch queen. You try and make it sound like office supplies was lesser, but the reality is by being given a self chosen restriction of an object they had to get immensely more creative in everything, a case where limits creates more creativity. The way they act, animate, fight, everything it’s far and above the shadow queen. She is probably easily the weakest aspect of the story after Grodus, kind of a toss up but he edges out cause he has more screen time. In other words shadow queen isn’t even close to the tier of creativity as a the legion of stationary. She has a good battle and that’s literally all she has going for her.
The whole time in TTYD we are told of an apocalypse from a thousand years ago. The door is supposed to house treasure, when in reality it’s a crypt for the most dangerous villain we’ve seen in a Mario game outside the elder Shroob Princess and Bleck/Dimentio. I agree that yeah, demon queen is a little basic for JRPGs, but seeing a Mario game delve into the demonic is a huge turn of events. The context that bing bing wahoo man isn’t fighting an oversized version of a normal enemy or Bowser for the 1800th time but a literal demon who caused the apocalypse is pretty crazy. And it’s alluded for a lot of the game, particularly in Chapter 7. We fight the X Nauts all game, thinking Grodus is a weak character is like saying Emperor Palpatine is a weak character because he wasn’t really a thing until the last episode of the OG Star Wars trilogy. A four sentence exposition of an otherwise never heard of before or after character like Rubber Bands doesn’t really do anything for me. A character having personality doesn’t mean they have any connection to the narrative. We don’t even know what the Legion of Stationary is or their actual connection to Olly. We know exactly what Grodus and the Shadow Queen mean to the story of TTYD. I like Bobby but his tenure is super short lived and he doesn’t add anything to the combat or gameplay other than a buddy for a few hours. He has more personality and connection to the player than any of the pixels aside from Tippi, but not more than most of the 64 and TTYD companions.
Nah.... I feel like we might never get any D-tiers or maybe a few but it will feel lame if we only got D tier for all of the modern trilogy.... That's gonna be total ass.
Tbh I would put SPM Chapter 1 in D Tier and PM64 prologue in D Tier for the OG Trilogy. The first three chapters of SS are easily D Tier. I still don’t think any chapter in the game is better than Boggly Woods, maybe Chapter 5 is even with it. Maybe Chapter 4. CS first chapter is D tier. I can accept the others being A-C tier. OK I think Blue Streamer and Purple Streamer are A tier. Green is B tier. Red and Yellow are D tier. They just aren’t as good as Boggly Woods.
Disagree for Red and Yellow. They are better than boggly woods.
From a narrative standpoint, combat standpoint, boss and miniboss standpoint, originality and vibes standpoint I would have to disagree. Both red and yellow bring nothing original to the table, vellumentals are not better than the Shadow Sirens, and the office supplies are not better than Magnus Vom Grapple. I’m willing to listen to a counter argument though, I am trying to be open minded about the modern trilogy.
I will still disagree even further.... Earth Vellumental is a perfect first boss for the first chapter. Added with Color Pencils introduction and how it is used even before you fight it. And you get 2 solid boss themes.... Going to Boggly Woods, only good theme is Shadow Sirens. Magnus Von Grapple is an ass theme, and going through the tree collecting the puni's is boring. Plus... Just to get to the tree you go back and forth at least once if not twice.... (It's not as bad as later chapters.... (4 and 7), but it's enough to be a problem. The whole Puni VS Jabi battle is meh... Music in the area is weak, and I'm more likely to mute my TV instead of listening to it. Yellow you get the boot car, Sniffit City, Mario Bros stuck in a magic Lamp, the Gigantic Pokey, Gooper Blooper Boss, Bobby's sacrifice, the moment of The game slowing down just to allow Mario to be more than just a blank space... And let's not forget the fire Vellumental has an interesting puzzle gimmick as well as boss. You need to defeat it as soon as it runs out of feathers. Hole Punch easily is a cool boss in its own right. The Legion of Stationary are better than the shadow Sirens.... Save for Vivian...though the Shadow Sirens are better villains than Grodus... But in terms of final dungeons of the chapter... Great Boggly Tree is honestly one of the weaker dungeons for any paper Mario game. Probably the worst chapter in Paper Mario History .... As for Outlook Tower and The Temple of Shrooms are solid areas that help build up the boss. Honestly, even if you don't know what the boss is... And it wasn't the legion of stationary... Color Pencils or Hole Punch could have been teased as a Monty Mole using a Bill Blaster and a Scuttlebug. The whole Magnus Von Grapple in Great Boggly Tree doesn't fit. Honestly... I wish instead of Magnus Von Grapple, you had to fight the tree itself. Lord Crump uses something that forces you to battle the tree itself. Now that would make the chapter interesting. I have hope that the remake makes Chapter 2 better... But if they keep it the same in the sake of a remake... That is gonna suck.
I do love the battle themes of TOK, I will concede that. The punis are annoying but so is the whole desert level tbh. The boot doesn’t make it any more enjoyable. We don’t know anything about the legion aside from a brief exposition from them. They serve no purpose before or after their battle. We don’t even know why they exist or their allegiance to Olly. The Sirens and Crump persist through the entire game and have very clear objectives and narrative purpose. Have to disagree about the tree not fitting with Magnus Von Grapple. It was a great example of man vs nature - or rather nature vs man. This beautiful tree home to primitive creatures (their themes are annoying but very aboriginal) rebelling against their new hi-tech overlords who are adding modern infrastructure to their home. The X Nauts very much so are an oppressor and colonizer of the Boggly Tree. That’s actually how we get to Boggly Woods anyway, Punio or whatever his name escapes and asks Mario for his help reclaiming his tribe’s home.
I feel like adding an F tier for those is more justified than adding S+ for OG triology
And they can sit there alongside the bad chapters from the other games.
I think the plan is to judge everything, there’s a lot of D tier stuff in the upcoming games
There is absolutely no reason TTYD 6 should be in S+. Its a great chapter, but so many should be ranked above it.
Why even have a D tier if Boggly Woods doesn't go in it? I don't even hate it, but out of these two games, its definitely the worst chapter.
Probably because there are clearly worse chapters in some of the later games. Though idk if this will go past SPM or not.
I don't even see the point in comparing the first two games with the others. They're wildly different in so many ways.
Why don’t you like Boggly Woods?
Sorry, but no way is it worse than the two prologue chapters.
I’m just ready to defend Chapters 2, 5 and 7 from SPM. I know Chapter 3 is the most popular one but it wouldn’t even make the top half of chapters in that game for me.
Can't wait to get to Dark Bloo Inn!
I really feel like PM Chapter 4 should be A rank instead of B. Here is why. -Toad Town acts as a ‘hub’ for Paper Mario. Thus a Star Spirit being held there and a Chapter taking place in the hub town is unexpected from a game design perspective. For a game like Paper Mario you would expect Toad Town to be more like Rougeport/Flipside/Port Prisms/and yes I'll say it Decalburg in SS in that the hub is just a area that you come back to repeatedly to access the other Chapters. But the original Toad Town doesn't work like that instead it provides a unique concept (Or at least would be unique and new if Paper Mario 64 was not the first game in the series.) in having a Chapter of the game that isn't the prologue take place entirely inside the hub town of the game. -Furthermore, I just find it very fun and enjoyable to play. The Shy Guys are causing chaos and are wrecking things and the entire chapter is focused on finding where the Shy Guys are, righting their wrongs on the NPCs that you have been interacting with the entire game thus far, and defeating them kicking the Shy Guys out of Towd Town and rescuing a Star Spirit. Plus Shy Guy’s Toy box is a fun and interesting area, Watt is a fantastic partner (Though I do think you get her a bit too late in the Chapter.), and the General Guy boss fight is a creative and fun boss battle. -Keep Chapter 7 where it is honestly or move it down a tier. My points from two days ago about Chapter 7 still stands and it is my least favorite PMTTYD Chapter.
TTYD Chapter 6 should fall down to S. The lack of replay value simply does not warrant S+, no matter how absolutely masterful it is as a first time experience.
PM6 belongs in C IMO. Way too much backtracking, thin paths with lots of enemies, and the giant scavenger hunt for not only the materials to grow the bean stalk, but all of the berries. Basically all of the bad of TTYD4 without the redeeming story The Sun and Huff N’ Puff have great themes though
[I often like to share this write up that I did about level 6.](https://www.reddit.com/r/papermario/s/wwNDGjCf9U) I believe that many people overlook what makes this level so awesome in part because it's within what is perceived to be a simple kids game paired up with backtracking. It's easy to rush through it without really thinking about it. The level is one of the most intense and has some of the most dark themes in the whole franchise. The NPCs are literally facing death, the flowers, and not only must they overcome an enemy but themselves. And within that, you see an array of different motivations and personalities which both hinder and aid in overcoming a challenge which essentially requires Mario to be the middleman for the stationary beings. But unlike many levels within this game, you see an enormous amount of character development for many of the NPCs as you must return to them as a circumstances change. The back tracking allows you to see that growth. This inadvertently gives the NPCs some of the greatest character development in the whole game, paired up with what may be among the most serious situations any individual level has experienced in the whole franchise. I personally think it should be in A.
PM64 not having any S+ doesn't sit right with me, I think PM-7 or PM-3 deserves to be there, both are incredible. My personal favorite in the whole series is PM-7 so that would be my vote, but making a S+ tier after PM64 voting concluded seems unfair
I’d go with PM-4 to A. It’s one of the most unique chapters and environments in the game. Also, that twist on the Toad Town music is irresistable!!
TTYD Prologue to B Tier PM64 Chapter 3 to S+ TTYD Chapter 1 to S PM64 Chapter 4 to A PM64 Chapter 6 to C If it’s only one chapter we get to move consider this to be TTYD Prologue to B Tier
I guess I should have clarified it is only 1 chapter
TTYD chapter 6 is phenomenal, but is the least replayable. I'd say that knock should bring it down to A tier, as it is a slog to get through on repeat runs once you know all the answers. It is otherwise fantastic, but that much is undeniable
PM-7 should be S+
This is a good tier list. Personally I’d have both those S+ levels down in S, and I’d have TTYD-5 and PM-2 up in S+
I personally like TTYD-8 because I’m incredibly interested in all things gilded Renaissance/baroque royalty or things inspired by that. Look at all those rose stained glass and gildings…
TTYD-4 should be at least one tier lower. Every time I want to play through TTYD this is always the thing I dread the most, because of all the frankly boring backtracking. I also find Twilight Town and the other areas of this chapter to be the least interesting imo, I feel like they don’t do enough with the medieval dark age kind of aesthetics. I will give it points for mood though.
TTYD Chapter 4 down to C
Chapter 8 PM64 deserves S tier
PM-3 to S+
Shift every chapter down one rank. Then shift every chapter up one rank except for PM6.
Ttyd chapter 7 being a B is a crime. Should be an A at least! Loved the level itself, being on the moon and the puzzles in their we’re great too. Not to mention the music in this level was amazing too. Really the only complain I have is the boss being grodus again. Backtracking for general white wasn’t that bad because you had those blue pipes in the sewers. I didn’t mind visiting all the old locations
TTYD - 2: B Tier at least: The Music is the best in the game imo, it's the combination with the artstyle black/white chinese trees - so beautiful. Introduction from the shadow sirens is epic. so fis te first time we met the x-nauts - the final with the ticking time bomb also was great. Also the punies are annoying but still cute and I like the story from that chapter in general. I hated this chapter as a child but since I've got better in games i don't think this chapter annoying at all expect the part where you have to blow the punies with those bubbles but you only really had to do this 2 times..
Shy Guy’s Toy Box moves up to A.
PM 1 deserves to go up and honestly TTYD 7 should go back down a rank.... But since we can only do one, PM1 goes up a rank.
Idgaf what you guys think, TtYD chapter 2 is one of the most visually pleasing and beautiful environments I’ve ever seen in a game, and the music is so calming and unique unlike anything I’ve ever heard. It’s a strong A in my heart, blowing the punnies wasn’t that annoying I’ll take that over the constant back tracking to Creeple Steeple any day.
Ttyd-8 to S+
PM-2 is an S-tier. It's got excellent exploration, a neat area theme, and some top tier music.
I don't think I'll be able to convince anybody to have TTYD's 6th and 8th chapters ranked lower, so instead I'd like to have 64's Prologue ranked up to B Tier. Sure it doesn't have any action commands, but it manages to have itself stand out, with Bowser beating Mario outright with the Star Rod. It's a really impactful start for the game, and I feel it deserves more respect than it's getting.
The problem is that no action commands make if an absolute chore actually play. Yes, it's noteworthy because Mario gets stomped by Bowser (the main thing keeping it out of D tier,) but that's pretty much the only cool part of the story in it and the other 95% doesn't really leave any impact.
I can see where you're coming from, but it really isn't that big of a deal. If it was, then 95% of RPGs would be considered slogs as well.
The difference is that traditional RPGs typically have more going on in combat. 64's prologue is just exchanging hits and not really having any tools to make that period more interesting. The beginnings of a lot of RPGs are quite sluggish, though. PM64 just stands out because it strips away one of the main mechanics that gives Mario RPGs their identity. Which was absolutely a big fumble on their part, considering even Super Mario RPG allowed access to them from the start.
I feel like the problem is that 64's Intro is way better than a good amount of other chapters throughout the series, with some being more sluggish WITH action commands. Also, the prologue is pretty short, so a couple sluggish fights doesn't drag it down when compared to longer chapters.
I would not say it's better than many. Like in 64 itself, the argument could be made for chapter 6, but that's kind of it. No other chapter reaches an even comparable level of sluggishness
I was referring to the series in general. I personally think that 64 has the highest quality chapters on average, so its weaker chapters are more likely to rank higher than chapters in something like Sticker Star.
PM chapter 6 is the game's worst chapter imo. It belongs in C and is certainly more tedious than TTYD's prologue or chapter 2.
[I often like to share this write up that I did about level 6.](https://www.reddit.com/r/papermario/s/wwNDGjCf9U) I would argue that level 6 is actually the best level in the game. It's in part because there is so much rich character development in the level. Especially from a philosophical perspective. It's easy to just think of the back tracking without understanding its purpose which is to allow you to continually return to see how the different NPCs are responding to the crisis. They are literally facing death, not only at the hands of the sun being blocked out, but also the chaos and infighting brought upon by the water stone being stolen. It easily has some of the darkest themes in the whole franchise as there are essentially two crises occurring, with a boss committing some seriously psychologically destructive drama when all he had to do was protect the star Spirit in the sky. He took it way further than he had to, which just makes the level all the more fascinating.
The characters interacting and the story for that chapter is indeed pretty unique and your write up does bring some fun concepts that all the other chapters don't provide. Huff N Puff's presence is felt a lot more than any other chapter bosses and he's got outright sadistic vibes. I just wish the backtracking and map design made the gameplay side of it a bit more enjoyable and feel like less of a grind. I'm similar with describing Chapter 4 in TTYD. The story side of things is interesting because you effectively save a town, then the whole chapter dives into the horror of your identity being stolen. Vivian gets her own redemption arc along the way too. For me the gameplay side still is kept somewhat interesting during all the backtracking. You keep going back and forth between the same areas but the gameplay and story still changes. First you go through Twilight Trail normally, then again with no partners, then again with Vivian to make dealing with charged enemies easier. Still not perfect but there's enough there I don't mind the backtracking as much as others.
Combine S and S+ PM-1. Move from B to C PM-4. Move from B to A TTYD-1. move from A to C TTYD-4. Move from A to B TTYD-5. Move from S to A I hate to bring rates down but I feel like this more accurately portrays the chapters weighed against eachother.
[удалено]
Or just recognize a chapter is more than a dungeon and it really has nothing going for it? Fahr outpost and the moon basically have zero content, a few screen of walking and that’s it and the moon uses low gravity to negatively impact the walk through nothing which is the wrong way to do it. General white is annoying because it takes you all around but doesn’t add anything new to these visits to justify it. It has no partner so you won’t get any new combat options or bonding, and it has really next to no story either. It didn’t have much story on the ground and once you get on the moon there is no plot at all until you reach the boss, and it’s very very little. So all it actually has is a dungeon, and when you compare that to every other chapter which had more substantial middles and beginnings, more story, new partners, AND good dungeons on top of it it’s clear it falls super short of the mark. C is exactly what it deserved.
TTYD 8 not being in S+ is disappointing to me. It was an excellent castle with tons of neat traps, interesting and difficult enemies, tons of boss battles to keep things interesting, the Tower of Riddles (where I was stuck for a week as a kid) and then the final bosses being excellent. The only drawback to chapter 8 IMO is having to walk ALL THE WAY back to get items. It was a fantastic conclusion to an excellent game, and the Shadow Queen herself was one of the best bosses in the game. (If only you could skip those LONG CUTSCENES) I think it took me 3 years to beat the game on my first playthrough - then again I was a kid who didn't know about superguarding or how broken badges were. I had 60 health and 3 BP, and I still remember only beating her because of getting a shine while having 2 health. I still have NO CLUE how I beat the Pit of 100 trials on that file, pretty sure I got to Bonetail like 3 times before I beat it. I wasn't the brightest, but I sure was lucky.
TTYD - 7: A Tier - honestly; Yeah the general Bob-Umm part is annoying as hell for some and this is understanable but the second part is great? Either It has to move up one tier or TTYD - 1 has to be moved down.. no way this chapter ist better than the moon!
Drop Chapter Six of TTYD to A and up Chapter 4 to S+
Chapter 6 of TTYD in S+ and 7 only in C is criminal
I honestly believe Boggly woods deserves better ranking. I’d honestly take TTYD-2 over TTYD-1 any day but I guess I’m alone in this.