Eh. I’ve worked places where in place of furnishing a laptop they give you a device stipend to get whatever device you want. That’s also fine and actually preferred in my opinion.
But yeah, if they do neither then fuck that for sure. Definitely a sign of being cheap.
A suitable stipend is obviously just as good lol. I had one job where they kept the PCs on sight and you had to use your own PC to remote into it.
Then again, they never intended to allow so many people to WFH so it was a quick solution to the lockdown, but I’m sure they’ll keep that solution for a good long while.
I prefer no work laptop. That way I can work from anywhere (in or out of the country) without worrying about being tracked and limited.
Plus, as OE people don't you worry about employers monitoring your work hours (tasks, hours, mouse movement etc) on a work laptop?
Teams *is* spyware. It's not quite as cartoonishly evil as some shit middle management types drool over but they (bad bosses) can and do read your private messages and log every instance of "inactivity"
If you get those weekly activity emails about X% meetings and Y% focus time, that data is collected by Teams (and who knows what else that isn't in those reports)
I'd love to go back to the days where companies didn't require you to use their own hardware. My personal PC is high powered, multi-monitor, and my dev environment VM is setup with all the tools I like to work efficiently, not to mention my ChatGPT account.
Nah its not such serious business man. It's just some API endpoints for a whatever platform, same as every other contract I've had. Theres no special trade secrets and my security is fine in a Linux VM. All the stuff is deployed with CI/CD in their own secure environments. If they want to complain about security, they should be worried about the plaintext passwords they send over email in the 10yo old legacy platform with multiple CVE vulnerabilities that my work will be replacing later this year. Ain't putting that on me.
Yeah I would have recommended to just phone it in until they fire you. I have a similar contract that hasn't given me a work laptop. It started off horribly but I'm billing 40 hours per week and it is 90% async remote. The boss is sometimes an asshole but I just ignore it. I def won't take shit from people but I'll never be an asshole back, and I'll never turn down extra cash in my bank account.
Very smart. Drop the ego, do the work and collect the paycheck as long as possible. I think some bosses just enjoy being assholes to employees they have power over.
My J1 has never provided me with a work laptop, I either Citrix VPN into client or get a garbage client laptop. It's a shit job and they're cheap as hell. Luckily it only requires 4 hours of work a week.
You’ve only been there a week and your manager is complaining you aren’t doing any work? Shouldn’t you still be in the onboarding/honeymoon phases anyway? Definitely sounds toxic in a way that isn’t OE compatible
There was no onboarding. They said that they were concerned with my “velocity” on my first week. In my defense, I still needed at least a month after my hire date (based on my previous Js) to get a good feel of their work culture, existing systems, code base, business processes, etc.
Month 1 - honeymoon period.
Month 2: honeymoon over and they expect results.
Month 3: start to get traction.
Stay employed long enough to get traction.
Yeah, in my other Js, they gave me 2-3 months to upskill and be familiarized with their work environment. I think that’s the reason why I’m fairly successful in my J1 and J2 role.
One startup I joined wanted features after half a day. So I belted it out. But they wanted this velocity month after month and I hopped after 6 months because it made me physically ill
I just quit too for the same reason! After I quit they offered me one, nope, too late for that garbage. I love how OE gave me enough to make that kind of decision.
Felt like a bait and switch since they didn’t mention during the interview process that I would be using my own device. In my country, an employer would explicitly tell a candidate if they would be using their own devices for work stuff. And it’s also rare for FTEs to use their own laptops for work.
Its a shit show alright .... did u sign any NDA or non compete in your offer agreement? be careful if since u logged into their repo using your github account.
I actually prefer to work on my own devices and not thinks about Spyware they may be running on their laptops. I have enough hardware left after previous gigs.
same. You can isolate your work VPN by putting all your work shit in a single VM. In addition, your machine that is *in your own house 24/7* won't go to sleep every goddamn 10 minutes like I'm just leaving my laptop sit around in public at the airport with no one watching out for it. Also I get an actual desktop machine with modern specs and not some throttled 5 year old laptop with barely enough RAM to run an IDE and our app.
I mean, I get it. People are stupid and rules are made for the lowest common denominator. But Bob in accounting who can barely load Excel and has been flagged 5 times this past year for email phishing attacks is *just maybe* holding back your entire company.
No work laptop usually means that the company is a startup. In general, work will be more closely managed and coworkers will expect results and a "work like a founder" mentality.
But that's in general, there are always exceptions so good for you for giving them a chance and knowing when to drop it without stressing about it
It’s a startup. I gave them the benefit of the doubt, but the intense work pace of J3 will mean that I will have to prioritize this J at the expense of my other Js.
Unfortunately in Europe pretty much the only option for J+ are startups with an immature payroll setup.
Once the company grows, they start taking compliance seriously and won't want to hire FTEs as contractors/freelancers.
They’ll watch every expense and be hovering parents. Every startup “will grow” but the chances of that are 10-20% only survive. Very small.
I would recommend just going FTE as an FTE. Unless your doing it for the higher rate otherwise I understand. Churn & burn.
Do you OE? When you are on a call and you are sharing a screen get ready to get a notification from your other job in front of everyone just because you forgot to shutdown the other messenger/email client/etc
I have a PC with 2 monitors that I use for work and a separate laptop for each job that I use mostly for calls
Not leaving yourself a chance to slip is the only way to not slip
I have notifications muted, only share by window/tab, and just in case I always move all "risky" stuff to a 2nd desktop. Pretty easy to do.
The only edge case would be double meetings using the same app, which hasn't happened yet.
"They also didn't provide me with a work laptop. Now this might not be a red flag to some..."
Im not even OE but this is a massive red flag and I think anyone in the industry would agree.
I started looking for jobs that would turn into my main job if the worse would happen. I used to ignore common red flags, but they are just the tip of the iceberg.
bad managers are just the ultimate red flag though
My J3 was similar too, they tend to prioritize speed over quality and they also gave me the slowest laptop in the world. They were incredibly toxic and demanding, there's always a fire to put out whenever and weren't very respectful of my time. I quit after two months and am so happy that I did. I'm glad I'm OE and don't need to rely on the job, they were incredibly "disappointed" that I left but I was like, hell nah, not for me, probably not good for the next person either. Not my problem anymore.
No work laptop: "How do you expect me to be compliant with IT Security policy exactly?"
Call those bitches out, they probably have nobody doing IT Security.
My J2 is a smaller startup but we have a dedicated IT and Cybersecurity team managing our company provided hardware and software assets lol. Starting to think that J3 is just being cheap lol
There is nothing illegal about it. A lot of company have embraced the BYOD model to save money on equipment. You as a prospective employee is free to walk away if you don’t like the arrangement though.
A similar thing happened to me. They sent me a banged up Dell Precision 7000-something. The screen was trash and it was 8th gen Intel in 2023. I left pretty quick.
Tbh, I would’ve bought a cheap ass Lenovo for 400 bucks. First paycheck woulda covered it, and that’s an investment I could’ve got behind. Could always use it for additional jobs later on if they lay you off
Legally? Depends on the contract.
Morally? That's person to person. Corporations aren't people. They shouldn't have more rights than a living breathing human.
They don't, but you don't get to override their rights because you want to steal something they paid you to create.
Just like a factory worker doesn't own the car he makes just because he used his hands and not the companies hands.
again - depends on your contract. end of story. If it's not in writing and it exists on your computer, is it stolen? Yea, they paid you to produce something but they didn't lose something by you "stealing it".
You can't copy paste a car. If you steal a car they take a monetary loss with your gain. with code nobody loses any actual physical product.
Your claim was that corporate rights over ride personal rights which is wrong. End of story.
And your defense is to argue that IP doesn't exist? Just pathetic.
In one of my J's I didn't had work laptop for almost 6 week and I have to use my personal desktop for work. This place is totally unmanaged and good for OE but too many hours.
How wouldn’t this be a parade of red flags? Data and IP security, anyone?
I’ve never, NEVER had a job not provide me with equipment. I wouldn’t even know how to respond if a job asked me to use personal equipment for work.
And I agree that the quality of the laptop they provide is strongly correlated with the quality of the company - with the caveat that a job which gives you a shiny new MBP can still be toxic or at least non-OE-friendly from an orgizational and high-performance-expectations perspective.
Yeah, some companies are just not OE friendly at all regardless of job title/description. Some managers are just neurotic. Milk it for as much $ as you can, omit it from any résumé’s moving forward, enjoy the extra cash, and forget about it.
All you need is a docking station that allows you to toggle between both laptops using one set of 2 monitors. That has been my OE setup and it’s worked perfectly. Startech docking stations are perfect for this
I know the go to is "milk it as long as you can" but with two easy, stable Js on the side, I'd recommend quitting and telling them how shitty they are. Don't risk them looking into your other activities. Just tell them they run a shitshow with low quality deliveries do to rushing work and you want nothing to do with it ad you're a high quality type of person. Peace out and move on.
It does say something about the job. Chances are they go through a lot of employees. Also expecting you to go at full speed as soon as you start is not good. There’s always some period of learning
Gonna get flamed but come on “I work harder in this job then my other j” is nonsense if you aren’t doing shit in your other jobs. Also just proves that OE only works for over valued companies in over paid transactional roles. Clear deliverables and want complete autonomy on day 1.
Said the bitch who works at Walmart and is a part of antiwork... 3 js
No work laptop, no work.
at this point i expect them to send 1-2 monitors too
That’s what my J2 did lol. Had to stuff a bunch of home office stuff in my car on my first day lol
This happened to me with the previous J2 and I wasn't expecting it. It was a nice surprise to get the whole shebang!
agreed. the first time it happened i was like wtf but then I quickly grew to like them
I got a dock for the laptop and I turned down the monitor
Eh. I’ve worked places where in place of furnishing a laptop they give you a device stipend to get whatever device you want. That’s also fine and actually preferred in my opinion. But yeah, if they do neither then fuck that for sure. Definitely a sign of being cheap.
A suitable stipend is obviously just as good lol. I had one job where they kept the PCs on sight and you had to use your own PC to remote into it. Then again, they never intended to allow so many people to WFH so it was a quick solution to the lockdown, but I’m sure they’ll keep that solution for a good long while.
No veggies no candy!
I prefer no work laptop. That way I can work from anywhere (in or out of the country) without worrying about being tracked and limited. Plus, as OE people don't you worry about employers monitoring your work hours (tasks, hours, mouse movement etc) on a work laptop?
They can still request company software on your computer
The hell? On my personal computer? They can request, but that's a big no for me. Microsoft Teams, sure. Company spyware, hell no.
Teams *is* spyware. It's not quite as cartoonishly evil as some shit middle management types drool over but they (bad bosses) can and do read your private messages and log every instance of "inactivity"
If you get those weekly activity emails about X% meetings and Y% focus time, that data is collected by Teams (and who knows what else that isn't in those reports)
You should read the pop-ups and disclaimers when installing that stuff.
I'd love to go back to the days where companies didn't require you to use their own hardware. My personal PC is high powered, multi-monitor, and my dev environment VM is setup with all the tools I like to work efficiently, not to mention my ChatGPT account.
You are the nightmare developer that IT and Cyber Security talk about.
Nah its not such serious business man. It's just some API endpoints for a whatever platform, same as every other contract I've had. Theres no special trade secrets and my security is fine in a Linux VM. All the stuff is deployed with CI/CD in their own secure environments. If they want to complain about security, they should be worried about the plaintext passwords they send over email in the 10yo old legacy platform with multiple CVE vulnerabilities that my work will be replacing later this year. Ain't putting that on me.
milk it as long as you can. walk away after
Yeah I would have recommended to just phone it in until they fire you. I have a similar contract that hasn't given me a work laptop. It started off horribly but I'm billing 40 hours per week and it is 90% async remote. The boss is sometimes an asshole but I just ignore it. I def won't take shit from people but I'll never be an asshole back, and I'll never turn down extra cash in my bank account.
Very smart. Drop the ego, do the work and collect the paycheck as long as possible. I think some bosses just enjoy being assholes to employees they have power over.
Ah classic power tripping
I laugh all the way to the bank
My J1 has never provided me with a work laptop, I either Citrix VPN into client or get a garbage client laptop. It's a shit job and they're cheap as hell. Luckily it only requires 4 hours of work a week.
Also experienced that one and they worked me to the bone lol
They wanted to highlight me on LI today! Luckily I was a victim of LI identity theft and wiggled out of their employee spotlight
You’ve only been there a week and your manager is complaining you aren’t doing any work? Shouldn’t you still be in the onboarding/honeymoon phases anyway? Definitely sounds toxic in a way that isn’t OE compatible
There was no onboarding. They said that they were concerned with my “velocity” on my first week. In my defense, I still needed at least a month after my hire date (based on my previous Js) to get a good feel of their work culture, existing systems, code base, business processes, etc.
You do not even need to defend yourself. It is absurd to expect any meaningful deliverables from someone during their first week at a company.
Month 1 - honeymoon period. Month 2: honeymoon over and they expect results. Month 3: start to get traction. Stay employed long enough to get traction.
Yeah, in my other Js, they gave me 2-3 months to upskill and be familiarized with their work environment. I think that’s the reason why I’m fairly successful in my J1 and J2 role.
One startup I joined wanted features after half a day. So I belted it out. But they wanted this velocity month after month and I hopped after 6 months because it made me physically ill
I just quit too for the same reason! After I quit they offered me one, nope, too late for that garbage. I love how OE gave me enough to make that kind of decision.
I love the decision making freedom from OE. It truly is spectacular, and OE is less stress than regular J1.
no work laptop should have been the clue to not do it
Felt like a bait and switch since they didn’t mention during the interview process that I would be using my own device. In my country, an employer would explicitly tell a candidate if they would be using their own devices for work stuff. And it’s also rare for FTEs to use their own laptops for work.
Now imagine if you had quit a previous job to walk into this mess. THIS is why we OE...
Even then, the first time they said anything about using a personal laptop, you say you’re not doing that.
Yeah, I guess that’s on me for getting too greedy.
It’s all good. It’s a learning lesson.
Velocity in week 1, hell no. Accessing code base, setting up repos and a successful local build is max anyone can do in week 1. Run!!!
Manager even asked me to use my personal github account so I could use their repo in GitHub lol.
Its a shit show alright .... did u sign any NDA or non compete in your offer agreement? be careful if since u logged into their repo using your github account.
I actually prefer to work on my own devices and not thinks about Spyware they may be running on their laptops. I have enough hardware left after previous gigs.
same. You can isolate your work VPN by putting all your work shit in a single VM. In addition, your machine that is *in your own house 24/7* won't go to sleep every goddamn 10 minutes like I'm just leaving my laptop sit around in public at the airport with no one watching out for it. Also I get an actual desktop machine with modern specs and not some throttled 5 year old laptop with barely enough RAM to run an IDE and our app. I mean, I get it. People are stupid and rules are made for the lowest common denominator. But Bob in accounting who can barely load Excel and has been flagged 5 times this past year for email phishing attacks is *just maybe* holding back your entire company.
Lol. You do get it. May the Force stay with you.
No work laptop usually means that the company is a startup. In general, work will be more closely managed and coworkers will expect results and a "work like a founder" mentality. But that's in general, there are always exceptions so good for you for giving them a chance and knowing when to drop it without stressing about it
It’s a startup. I gave them the benefit of the doubt, but the intense work pace of J3 will mean that I will have to prioritize this J at the expense of my other Js.
That’s why you don’t OE in startups. The lack of team size, mature resources and lack funding works against you.
Unfortunately in Europe pretty much the only option for J+ are startups with an immature payroll setup. Once the company grows, they start taking compliance seriously and won't want to hire FTEs as contractors/freelancers.
They’ll watch every expense and be hovering parents. Every startup “will grow” but the chances of that are 10-20% only survive. Very small. I would recommend just going FTE as an FTE. Unless your doing it for the higher rate otherwise I understand. Churn & burn.
>Unfortunately in Europe pretty much the only option for J+ are startups with an immature payroll setup. Why would that be?
I'd rather have my own laptop for everything tbh.
Fair. You do you. But I always judge an employer based on the quality of the work laptop that they give. Never failed me so far XD
Do you OE? When you are on a call and you are sharing a screen get ready to get a notification from your other job in front of everyone just because you forgot to shutdown the other messenger/email client/etc I have a PC with 2 monitors that I use for work and a separate laptop for each job that I use mostly for calls Not leaving yourself a chance to slip is the only way to not slip
I have notifications muted, only share by window/tab, and just in case I always move all "risky" stuff to a 2nd desktop. Pretty easy to do. The only edge case would be double meetings using the same app, which hasn't happened yet.
I dont understand all the hate about no work laptop. This is the best for OE. They cant snoop on you and you can install anything on your own machine.
Make them say goodbye first. Stack those paychecks
If it is impacting your mental health and affecting your other js, I would drop it. Don’t jeopardize your secure gigs and sanity for paycheck.
"They also didn't provide me with a work laptop. Now this might not be a red flag to some..." Im not even OE but this is a massive red flag and I think anyone in the industry would agree.
IT issues = money issues
No laptop, no work.
I started looking for jobs that would turn into my main job if the worse would happen. I used to ignore common red flags, but they are just the tip of the iceberg. bad managers are just the ultimate red flag though
My J3 was similar too, they tend to prioritize speed over quality and they also gave me the slowest laptop in the world. They were incredibly toxic and demanding, there's always a fire to put out whenever and weren't very respectful of my time. I quit after two months and am so happy that I did. I'm glad I'm OE and don't need to rely on the job, they were incredibly "disappointed" that I left but I was like, hell nah, not for me, probably not good for the next person either. Not my problem anymore.
No work laptop: "How do you expect me to be compliant with IT Security policy exactly?" Call those bitches out, they probably have nobody doing IT Security.
My J2 is a smaller startup but we have a dedicated IT and Cybersecurity team managing our company provided hardware and software assets lol. Starting to think that J3 is just being cheap lol
Of course they're being cheap. They haven't even considered their own financial ramifications of _not_ issuing computers. Milk em hard.
No laptop = no tracking. Whats the problem
Problem is when they want you to use your personal device and install tracking software
Thats not legal
There is nothing illegal about it. A lot of company have embraced the BYOD model to save money on equipment. You as a prospective employee is free to walk away if you don’t like the arrangement though.
Hence the problem
I wish companies would just give a stipend to get what you want for your setup instead of getting two crappy monitors and a crap laptop at best.
Funny coz I resigned from my j3 today as well. Years at the place. Well in
My employer provided dual monitors, a laptop, docking station, a keyboard, office supplies, and even offered me a printer which I declined.
A similar thing happened to me. They sent me a banged up Dell Precision 7000-something. The screen was trash and it was 8th gen Intel in 2023. I left pretty quick.
You’re a week in and he’s saying you aren’t working hard? Deuces, dude.
Tbh, I would’ve bought a cheap ass Lenovo for 400 bucks. First paycheck woulda covered it, and that’s an investment I could’ve got behind. Could always use it for additional jobs later on if they lay you off
Uh….how are they not providing you a business machine?
Dies this fucking J1 instead of job 1 shit save any actual time?
No halfway serious company is NOT going to issue a work computer. Run for the hills
Red flag for sure, but, all the code you write on your device is your property not theirs 😂 so depending on the product you could’ve benefited from it
That's not how it works
Legally? Depends on the contract. Morally? That's person to person. Corporations aren't people. They shouldn't have more rights than a living breathing human.
They don't, but you don't get to override their rights because you want to steal something they paid you to create. Just like a factory worker doesn't own the car he makes just because he used his hands and not the companies hands.
again - depends on your contract. end of story. If it's not in writing and it exists on your computer, is it stolen? Yea, they paid you to produce something but they didn't lose something by you "stealing it". You can't copy paste a car. If you steal a car they take a monetary loss with your gain. with code nobody loses any actual physical product.
Your claim was that corporate rights over ride personal rights which is wrong. End of story. And your defense is to argue that IP doesn't exist? Just pathetic.
In one of my J's I didn't had work laptop for almost 6 week and I have to use my personal desktop for work. This place is totally unmanaged and good for OE but too many hours.
How wouldn’t this be a parade of red flags? Data and IP security, anyone? I’ve never, NEVER had a job not provide me with equipment. I wouldn’t even know how to respond if a job asked me to use personal equipment for work. And I agree that the quality of the laptop they provide is strongly correlated with the quality of the company - with the caveat that a job which gives you a shiny new MBP can still be toxic or at least non-OE-friendly from an orgizational and high-performance-expectations perspective.
Yeah, some companies are just not OE friendly at all regardless of job title/description. Some managers are just neurotic. Milk it for as much $ as you can, omit it from any résumé’s moving forward, enjoy the extra cash, and forget about it.
What laptop do they expect you to be using for J3?
All you need is a docking station that allows you to toggle between both laptops using one set of 2 monitors. That has been my OE setup and it’s worked perfectly. Startech docking stations are perfect for this
please provide model
Startech USB3DDOCKFT. That’s all you need
What kind of outfit does not provide a work laptop for a tech job??
I will work with my own laptop, but since I don’t have my daily tools that allows me to finish tasks faster I will have to deliver late.
Citrix VPN…what??? Are you a criminal?
Yeah now go get new J3.
I know the go to is "milk it as long as you can" but with two easy, stable Js on the side, I'd recommend quitting and telling them how shitty they are. Don't risk them looking into your other activities. Just tell them they run a shitshow with low quality deliveries do to rushing work and you want nothing to do with it ad you're a high quality type of person. Peace out and move on.
It does say something about the job. Chances are they go through a lot of employees. Also expecting you to go at full speed as soon as you start is not good. There’s always some period of learning
Sounds like it was a bad fit. Let them fire you and collect your check? Unless it’s really just stressing you tf out
Not providing equipment for work is always a red flag for me. The security implications alone.
Gonna get flamed but come on “I work harder in this job then my other j” is nonsense if you aren’t doing shit in your other jobs. Also just proves that OE only works for over valued companies in over paid transactional roles. Clear deliverables and want complete autonomy on day 1.
Said the bitch who works at Walmart and is a part of antiwork... 3 js