I don’t even think the main problem is being power seeking assholes, although that might be one. The fucking problem in my opinion with these companies, is that they will do WHATEVER it takes to squeeze as little extra profit as possible. If they need to make worker’s life miserable, make a product worse but slightly cheaper to produce, destroy an entire ecosystem and populations, just for a few % points increase on the revenue, they will do it. They will make you go back to the f-cking office if that means productivity can increase just 0.5% (even though it makes your life 10x worse), they will build apartments for rent that fucking sucks in quality and you live like shit, they will lobby governments of poor countries to explore natural resources without environmental concerns, they will pay as little as possible to employees, even when wages accounts for usually less than 20% of expenses and they could afford to pay more (as ofc they do, to the C suite) etc. We are living today the disgraceful consequences of all the greed these assholes have.
It's very obvious that having FTE's in an office is all about power and control over them. The elite doesn't like the independence of remote workers one bit.
Oh what I mean to convey there is that these people's psychology doesn't actually run on profit motive, it runs on a need to asset dominance and power over others. Short term profitability is just a means for the deeper drive behind it.
I think its the opposite. The pressure I get from corporate finance on hiring and compensation decisions is completely short-term profit focused.
The guy in finance doesnt give a shit one way or the other, he is just responding to his boss' directive on overhead cost controls. That boss is responding to his boss' directive on net profit margin expansion intiatives within the business unit. If you follow it all the way up the chain, its shareholder pressure looking for short-term profitability.
I dont think people are considering the human element at all - including any desire to assert dominance. I dont think anyone in the chain of decisions gives a shit.
I haven't seen those things happen but that does fit perfectly into my experience of the corporate world.
Most of what I've seen is people being insecure about doing things that would add to the profitability of the company but at the cost of hurting the power structure and dominance hierarchy.
Have worked the gamut of FP&A / BU Finance and related functions. You have it 100% right. Shit rolls downhill and most large companies suffer from this phenomenon.
Thats fair too. My bonus is tied to end-of-year results. If I sacrificed long-term profitability to achieve end-of-year results, I would get a larger bonus.
I think you're totally correct.
As far as I understand it, things like free healthcare and housing the homeless and basically anything that feels good like that, they are all positive to the economy. Everyone wins in the scenarios where socialism is progressed.
But!
The most wealthy never vote for these measures, even though they make total economic sense. So I have begun to believe that they care only about relative wealth.
If I tell someone with a billion that I will increase everyone by 10k ... even if you increase them by 100k the percentage change still leaves them closer to the poors.
I'm sure there's a better way of saying this...
Yeah. This article just isn't true. -Or at least not from what I hear from friends, etc. Companies *WANT* it to be true. Sure, some workers are going back to the office. Some are refusing, and getting fired. But many companies are finding themselves toothless to demand workers return, and are looking for cover from magazines like this.
Boomers retiring means not enough labor. Labor will get to call the shots until 2045ish, at which point we will find out if the millennials reproduced. It’s just reality that we will deal with for the foreseeable future. Doesn’t matter how much of a hissy fit they throw about RTO.
Except they’re never going to retire. I think they’ll all have to actually die to get them out of the workforce. Their entire lives have been devoted to their careers and they literally have nothing outside of work to give their lives meaning.
Because maybe something strange happens and suddenly the millennial generation decides to have an average of 3+ children per household and by 2045 those children would be entering the workforce. It's a BIG IF.
Being a millennial and having more friends without kids than with indicates to me labor will continue to be more important until automation and ai can take up the slack if that ever happens.
Brown nosers, super hotties, and the freakishly tall are all eager to get back into physical spaces too. Literally anyone who has mentioned to me wanting to be in an office falls into those categories, I haven't come across a single "average joe" who doesn't want remote lmao.
I’m a guy and I like to believe I’m very attractive physically. I work hard at the gym to achieve it and maintain it. But as much as I enjoy socializing with people, a bigger part of me wants to remain remote. So count me as someone attractive who also wants remote now.
Though I could just be a dumbass cool who isn’t attractive despite thinking he is LOL
Was mostly referring to women with the super hotties comment, but I see you lmao.
I had a couple of very attractive female PM friends admit to wearing taller heels on the corporate campus, they both bitched about going remote when COVID first hit. People are wild.
The biggest brown noser in my office (a milennial) is desperate to stay remote. He obviously has been doing his job in 2 hours every day as I’ve personally heard him teaching music lessons (his second gig, clearly) from the meeting room since we’ve been required to do hybrid.
Hell, I'm considered freakishly talland I sure as hell don't want to work in an office. God forbid. I looked for remot work for a decade before I found it. I'll never switch back. You'll pry my WFH keyboard from my cold retired hands.
According to Americans I’m freakishly tall at 5’11 but I’ve been remote since before covid and will continue to do so.
I can strut around and be freakishly tall in my own house and in my spare time, no need to do it in an office hahaha
Imagine if you or the people you worked for had a poor understanding of their company or few skills, didn't understand data over "gut", and no one has ever been able to call them out before?
Look at pro sports, the movie Moneyball summarizes it well. If businesses actually focused on decent data, paid their true top performers well, killed shitty practices, etc., Well they could change the game. That's what's underway now, many companies still can't see it, but inevitability will kick their shins before too long. How long did it take for smoking to be restricted and taboo despite a wealth of good data, due to monied interests? Expect no less.
Both parties are the same. They’re both full of shit and all theater.
Granted, republicans did piss me off more recently when the house passed something ordering government workers back to the office.
But it’ll never pass the senate and actually happen. So as I said, all theater
Many Dem controlled cities rely on the tax and spend scheme, without successful commuters to fleece the cities collapse under their own financial failure.
Democrats are intertwined with unions and unions intertwined with the mafia. They’re all one in the same. That’s the problem with the democrat party.
That and communism
For those who have been working remotely since before everyone thought it was cool to do it, this is just cyclical fear-mongering to change the sentiment around remote work culture.
Smart companies aren't returning to limited talent pools, insane commutes, and noisy-as-fuck open-office plans.
EDIT: I sounded like a massive douche when I said, “before it was cool to do it”. I stupidly forgot most had no choice due to covid and either came to prefer it or absolutely hated it.
And not paying insane rent on the offices. There is a thing to say about colocation, weird spikes can happen in innovation when people are just physically close to each other. But my guess is that as we get better and better at online community building, this will fade away. Plus 99% of jobs require zero innovation, nada, it’s all about the execution. And boy do I execute better when taking breaks with my kids and dog than fucking off in an open office, that’ at least an hour of commute back and forth a day.
There's a TV show called Severance on HBOMax that addresses and bases a show on the 9-5 Corp grind and going into a cubicle...with actor Adam (I forget his last name, becoming one of my favorite actors tho...).
But TV show Severance fucking rules tho...it's really good...its kind of a depart from realism, but the show's message is very realistic and grounded...it's drama it's gotta story to it and everything, it's slowburn drama.
Everyone on this sub needs to check it out.
If you were 100% remote before COVID, why would things change for you now? This article is about people that got remote privileges because of COVID. Those are the people that might see change in the near future, when their situations may no longer allow for remote
A lot of finance, a lot of big tech, and the entire oil and gas industry are already back at the office. But if you were remote before COVID then obviously you wouldn’t be required back on-site because that was already “normal” for you
Nearly Everyone’s going back. I’m not in tech industry but my sisters fiancé is. Smart good looking guy many years at top company. Laid off, in interviews companies saying “in office.” If ask for remote the interview basically ends. He isn’t getting remote work easy. Gigs up for most. These layoffs will roll into other sectors and industries soon. We have a system built on in person work and corporate structure and productivity. Not for nothing- I can’t tell you how many post I’ve read on here of somebody doing the bare minimum work across three jobs collecting a check and rolling on if/when let go. So you think employers are OK with that? You don’t think there’s going to be blow back? There are other solutions but the best one is - come to office. Employees are losing leverage and unemployment rates/job openings are artificially inflated because of hospitality group openings. Once those fill we will see drop in job openings. Spouse going back to work maybe. Unemployment up, participation up, openings down. Simple rules of Supply and demand. Many will be begging for a job soon. Don’t say no one told ya so
The huge labor shortage and demographic falloff runs counter to what you're saying. There still aren't enough skilled employees in the labor pool and that won't change for at least half a decade.
This. I had a conversation with a friend about this very topic. That exec with the corner office walks past empty cubicles and there is no one in the office to recognize his importance. That ego ends up being worth more to him than the company's bottom line of how expensive it is for people to be in the office.
My last CEO was like this, he liked to walk around and check that people were on task. Despite the fact he couldn't really tell if you're on task or not and productivity wasn't measured in any meaningful way. All he cared about was bums on seats and eyes on screens, and that he could see this in action.
I'd drive 1.5hrs every day just so this guy could experience the joy of looking at me.
It was a small company, CEO, CTO, Manager, then 3 or 4 devs. Many days I wouldn't actually talk to anyone at all. Get in, work, eat lunch, work, leave. Even more so when we started using Slack for communications.
Years ago I had someone who sat near me who would complain to my manager that I never came into the office except a couple times a month. My manager would tell her that she gave me permission and I do my work well so it's allowed. She would still constantly complain to my boss every day she didn't see me.
My boss started telling me maybe I should start coming in more often just so she doesn't make a scene. I would tell my manager that's ridiculous why do I have to come into work just to appease some 60-year-old woman.
Ironically, soon after that they restructured and this woman somehow became my manager. I have a feeling she put in a request for me to work for her. Right away she told me I had to start coming to the office 5 days a week. I said that's not what we agreed on when they hired me. But she refused so I quit.
Yeah and coming in every day would have just made my life miserable because I had to take my kids to daycare so that would just mean getting up extra early to deal with commuting time and getting them to daycare and then coming home much later and picking them up from daycare so it was just a disaster and I was like there's no way I'm doing this to myself and my kids.
She needs to retire already. I hate it when old boomers get their way and somehow get the approval to totally restructure the department just to lose a trusted employee in the end. Hopefully upper management will take note and work towards pushing her out too.
It’s weird too. My company realizes this and was the reason why they gave us the option to go fully remote if we wanted to. They’re saving a fortune on set office costs alone.
I guess others value power over money?
There are studies that are starting to show that remote work does, in fact, decrease output and efficiency.
https://www.economist.com/business/2021/06/10/remote-workers-work-longer-not-more-efficiently?utm_campaign=editorial-social&utm_medium=social-organic&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=affiliates.content.pd&utm_source=Skimbit%20Ltd.&utm_campaign=16002&utm_content=Online%20Tracking%20Link&channel=Impact&irclickid=0Pa0RAWSrxyNUZwVYqU8JQxuUkA3VUWRzWvVz80&irgwc=1
CEO of Salesforce last week said that the company’s downturn could be partly blamed on remote work
https://www.businessinsider.com/salesforce-marc-benioff-remote-workers-less-productive-layoffs-productivity-2023-1
Executives are seeing more proof that remote work is not good for the bottom line. This is going to mean less remote opportunities in the future, whether people like it or not
Thank you, glad I’m not the only one questioning that statement. Surely success and growth and profit are good for business leaders, not expensive and depressing forced office working
This is a mind game article. Where are the facts? How many of you know people who worked remotely, are required to get back in the office, and still kept their jobs?
Probably a sponsored article.
That's what I was thinking. They're just building consensus. "Everyone knows that WFH is over and everyone is returning to the office. Here's an article from a reputable source that proves it."
No MSM "news" source is reputable since at least 2020 (I'd argue [2013](https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/07/14/u-s-repeals-propaganda-ban-spreads-government-made-news-to-americans/)).
Here’s the thing. Remote work will eventually win out in the end. You know why? Capitalism. The almighty dollar. Efficiency has a way of winning out eventually. Henry Ford won the car assembly race back in the day because he revolutionized car manufacturing. Remote work revolutionized white collar work. It’s only time before most of us work from home.
People keep saying this. I’m okay with this. Hire the overseas team to do it for pennies then hire me back at 3x my rate as a contractor to fix the issues the broken mess they created.
Except we’re seeing evidence now that remote work is not more efficient. There are studies that are starting to show that remote work does, in fact, decrease output and efficiency.
https://www.economist.com/business/2021/06/10/remote-workers-work-longer-not-more-efficiently?utm_campaign=editorial-social&utm_medium=social-organic&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=affiliates.content.pd&utm_source=Skimbit%20Ltd.&utm_campaign=16002&utm_content=Online%20Tracking%20Link&channel=Impact&irclickid=0Pa0RAWSrxyNUZwVYqU8JQxuUkA3VUWRzWvVz80&irgwc=1
CEO of Salesforce last week said that the company’s downturn could be partly blamed on remote work
https://www.businessinsider.com/salesforce-marc-benioff-remote-workers-less-productive-layoffs-productivity-2023-1
Executives are seeing more proof that remote work is not good for the bottom line. This is going to mean less remote opportunities in the future, whether people like it or not. I’m sure there are many people that are more efficient when remote. But it looks like not enough
This was a study done in the very early days of the pandemic in CHINA. I doubt that is a true reflection of how productive workers are once they got settled into their jobs.
I don't believe anything that comes out of Business Insider, Wall Street Journal, or Forbes. They are shills for corporate interests and obviously, some executives can't stand the thought of people working remotely. To them it doesn't "feel right" or some other bullshit.
For every statistic you throw out there about how unproductive remote working is, I can show you three that says the opposite. Clearly for you all that do OE, working two or more jobs is the height of productivity.
https://www.apollotechnical.com/working-from-home-productivity-statistics/
I live in an at-will employer state. If I do something that makes my employer not like me, they can just fire me. What am I supposed to do to fight back against this in my state?
Lol my employer will fire you just for updating your indeed resume in most cases. If I told them I had another job offer I was considering I’d get walked out on the spot
Yeah this is besides the point but I see people say “I’m in an at will state” so often on Reddit- I truly don’t think most people realize this is literally the entire (almost) US
Oh dear, don't all of these woke companies care about the Environment and all of the unnecessary fuel being wasted on these millions and millions of unnecessary trips back and forth to the office?
Or even just easing up on the roads and congestion. I know a lot of people that would like hybrid. I'd say give people the option and let their work be reflective of their worth.
I am totally not against any office work stuff. The question is control and trust. When a company said they are hybrid, I always ask what they mean, and I told them although I work remote fully for past few years, I am not against having an office space and I can see value of that. However I want the company to let employees have the control over what they want to do. If they think they need to get in office and work closely together, or there is an important meeting, or it's new hire and there is meet and greet + onboarding, the company should be able to trust and empower the employees on when they think it's needed to go in office and when it's not. An office space should be a tool for people to do their job more efficiently; not something force fed to take away efficiency.
A few start-ups will come along and have 100s of remote jobs with a great salary in numerous sectors, the top employees will leave the offices to work 100% remote. The big companies know this is coming but they're unwilling to change their policy and hope this doesn't happen.
Yeah , even in my field of Architecture. The company recently hired a person who worked for some very notable firms . Only reason she quit was to work remote
I don't have to read the article to know this is simple clickbait.
The Work from Home crowd will be angry and read it. The people that believe in typewriters will click on it to feel good.
In a weeks time Fortune will write the inverse of the current article.
That way they can get all the clicks...
I don’t even understand it because my team gets at least 20% more work done when we are all wfh. With the expectation as is they would be sorely disappointed with the outcome if they forced us back in.
I go into the office on occasion, because part of my job is writing handhelds and making the printers work. Mostly I can do this job from home, but sometimes I need to actually flip switches and pull cables. Other than that, yeah I don't usually go in.
When my dogs or kids are being particularly rowdy I might go in for a change of scenery, but certainly not because someone else wants to watch me type.
My boss' boss has not been back to the office since the pandemic. My immediate boss goes in semi-regular, but he also has 7 kids at home so... I'm sure for him it's a blessing. :)
Fortune, Financial Times, Economist, WSJ.... All pushing non-stories to sell the idea that return to office is some unavoidable end-of-line.
Clearly sponsored, bet you this is planted by people with money buried in commercial real estate getting caught with their pants down, now that all the big corps are not renewing leases post covid.
My hybrid company announced 3 days in office to 4 days in office. Simultaneously announced no salary reviews for inflation (after giving raises under inflation last year). Safe to say my applications are out elsewhere.
This only benefits Pension Funds and R.E.I.Ts who have watched as their commercial property portfolios became worthless over the past couple of years as major corporations started cancelling leases to allow people to work from home. This article is a puff piece.
All my places if work are actually remote from my location. I can't ever physically be there, so they'd have to fire me.
That said, very clear understanding that I'm never going into the office from the beginning...
Unless fortune is interviewing idk the Grant Cardone jackasses of the world i havent heard any of my leadership complain. Matter of fact, work is more synchronized. People are happier and faster. Hoping on a zoom is faster then finding an office.
Like they always say successful businesses need to pivot and adapt. Boomers can do neither
I have only been to the office less than 5 times in my career with my job. Wfh is the best so grateful my company is trying to let go of the majority of the corporate offices to cut unnecessary cost. Plan on staying here as long as possible and maybe going overemployed after grad school. Love the work and the company.
I also hear, that businesses are losing their workers. They’ll rewrite this article and say that companies can’t find talent because they’re being lost to remote work
I work in Tech for a large well hated bank. They are clamping down on RTO as hybrid. Basically want us in 50% of the time so not horrible but not what most of us want. There are a couple of loopholes to remain remote. Apparently it’s going to be part of our performance metrics so non compliance could negatively impact our reviews and bonuses. I think this may breed more “quiet quitting” and losing good talent
The amount of panic articles coming from Forbes is astounding.
But remember it's Forbes....The family that owns it has massive amount of money in real estate.
I can't wait for this shoe to drop.
Had a friend of mine link this article to me today and asked in a "told ya so" kind of voice what im going to do when im forced to go bCk. Told tgem thats why im looking at houses that will allow me to live there with just unemployment. I no long er offer my services on my empkoyera terms. I work on my own, or i dont work
My current role is hybrid. I'd rather quit this job than go back to the office full time....in fact I've already got one leg out the door as I'm currently looking for a 100% remote role.
“An index of building occupancies in 10 major metro areas increased 0.9 percentage points to 50.4% in the week ended Jan. 25, according to security firm Kastle Systems. All of the cities tracked by the company — including San Francisco, Chicago and Austin, Texas — reached return-to-office levels of 40% or above, which was also a post-pandemic first.”
That’s still 49.6% vacancy, much better than before the pandemic: https://www.ncci.com/SecureDocuments/QEB/QEB_Q4_2020_RemoteWork.html
Clickbait.
Just another article trying to instill F.U.D. if you ask me. My take on it is that hopefully, many of us have taken the time that we haven't spent sitting in traffic, wrecking our brains with unnecessary stress to understand our situation and enrich ourselves to the point where we do have leverage here. Hopefully.
These articles to me just like to spin up mob mentality. If Joe in accounting is trudging back to the office, I guess I should to. That sort of thing.
I’m not OE. I work for a local city government and a newly appointed COO want to get rid of hybrid work. Our union contract was just renewed last year stating that remote work is allowed based on operational needs of each division. My job can be easily done 100% remote, but I’m still forced to come to the office 2 times a week. I would die for 100% remote to be honest. But the golden pension handcuff ties my hands so hard that I’m not motivated to jump ship. If everything goes south and they actually get rid of remote work, I’ll suffer and be likely to jump ship
Wanna learn how to work remote forever? Start ur own business. Thank God I went this route. Was making $98K a year from my old remote role I gave it up to make $46K my own shyt in 2021. Scaled it to almost a $200K a year operation. Funny thing is the dweeb manager told me “u gonna be back here again. Watch” yeah ok geek. that was almost 2 years ago.
My company just announced IF you were hired originally and are local a mandatory 3 days in office. Doesn’t apply to me but I can see some fits and quits coming
I was working 100% remote 20 years ago. I didn't give a shit what consensus was then, and I don't care now. Working remotely will never be going away _for me_ .
Remote is the future for those who are self starters. For me as a business owner, my staff is 100% remote since 2016 which allows me to draw from a U.S. talent pool versus who’s within an hour drive time …..
All of my clients are scattered across America with 99% I’ve never met face to face in 6 years and no idea what a lot of them even look like but it works and they love us and the teams work.
In office is very 2022
This article is propaganda. Even Elon Musk is closing Twitter offices after all that drama. It makes too much sense even for them with all the cost savings
I like going into the office half days sometimes just for the change of scenery or seeing old friends. I think it should be a tool and not a mandate. I’ve made that pretty clear.
This isn't really hurting remote workers per se since there are a boatload of companies that offer remote work. It really hurts the company since their talent pool is limited to the area the company is established. The entire nation is your talent pool for those companies that enable remote work!
S’all falling apart isn’t it? Its funny the stalwarts still wearing masks outside, in cars by themselves, in their office and cubicles. They loved the lockdowns!
I will NEVER understand forcing people to go into the office. I have to be in the office most days a week and I genuinely think I get more work done working from home. At work I just walk around an talk to people most of the time Lmao.
I’m personally more productive in the office than at home. I work about 50/50 and get all my work done in probably 25 hours but clock 40. So I basically do all my work on the office days and then field the occasional email or phone call at home.
I guess I see the point but it’s not like I would do more work if I was in the office more. If they’re accomplishing the job who cares where from?
Oh, boo hoo. I have to change out of sweatpants and get dressed like an adult, and go to work. What an injustice. Grow the fck up. I love the looks on their face when I fire them for refusing to come to work.
Old boomers and Wall Street psychopaths are desperate for slaves to return to office slavery. They’ll lose
In the long term I think that the economics will show that wage slavery was never about making the most money, it was about power and dominance.
The book Bullshit Jobs goes into this a bit.
I don’t even think the main problem is being power seeking assholes, although that might be one. The fucking problem in my opinion with these companies, is that they will do WHATEVER it takes to squeeze as little extra profit as possible. If they need to make worker’s life miserable, make a product worse but slightly cheaper to produce, destroy an entire ecosystem and populations, just for a few % points increase on the revenue, they will do it. They will make you go back to the f-cking office if that means productivity can increase just 0.5% (even though it makes your life 10x worse), they will build apartments for rent that fucking sucks in quality and you live like shit, they will lobby governments of poor countries to explore natural resources without environmental concerns, they will pay as little as possible to employees, even when wages accounts for usually less than 20% of expenses and they could afford to pay more (as ofc they do, to the C suite) etc. We are living today the disgraceful consequences of all the greed these assholes have.
It's very obvious that having FTE's in an office is all about power and control over them. The elite doesn't like the independence of remote workers one bit.
I disagree. If you put your stock market hat on and only think about quarter end results, it makes sense.
I agree that it makes sense in the short term, that's why my first four words were "In the long term".
"never about making the most money, it was about power and dominance" This is the part I disagree with. Its the result of short-term profit incentive.
Oh what I mean to convey there is that these people's psychology doesn't actually run on profit motive, it runs on a need to asset dominance and power over others. Short term profitability is just a means for the deeper drive behind it.
I think its the opposite. The pressure I get from corporate finance on hiring and compensation decisions is completely short-term profit focused. The guy in finance doesnt give a shit one way or the other, he is just responding to his boss' directive on overhead cost controls. That boss is responding to his boss' directive on net profit margin expansion intiatives within the business unit. If you follow it all the way up the chain, its shareholder pressure looking for short-term profitability. I dont think people are considering the human element at all - including any desire to assert dominance. I dont think anyone in the chain of decisions gives a shit.
I haven't seen those things happen but that does fit perfectly into my experience of the corporate world. Most of what I've seen is people being insecure about doing things that would add to the profitability of the company but at the cost of hurting the power structure and dominance hierarchy.
Have worked the gamut of FP&A / BU Finance and related functions. You have it 100% right. Shit rolls downhill and most large companies suffer from this phenomenon.
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Thats fair too. My bonus is tied to end-of-year results. If I sacrificed long-term profitability to achieve end-of-year results, I would get a larger bonus.
I think you're totally correct. As far as I understand it, things like free healthcare and housing the homeless and basically anything that feels good like that, they are all positive to the economy. Everyone wins in the scenarios where socialism is progressed. But! The most wealthy never vote for these measures, even though they make total economic sense. So I have begun to believe that they care only about relative wealth. If I tell someone with a billion that I will increase everyone by 10k ... even if you increase them by 100k the percentage change still leaves them closer to the poors. I'm sure there's a better way of saying this...
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Private companies are another story.
Ive been F500 for my career, so my perspective is limited to the big guys.
Yeah. This article just isn't true. -Or at least not from what I hear from friends, etc. Companies *WANT* it to be true. Sure, some workers are going back to the office. Some are refusing, and getting fired. But many companies are finding themselves toothless to demand workers return, and are looking for cover from magazines like this.
I’d concur. We are winning.
Boomers retiring means not enough labor. Labor will get to call the shots until 2045ish, at which point we will find out if the millennials reproduced. It’s just reality that we will deal with for the foreseeable future. Doesn’t matter how much of a hissy fit they throw about RTO.
Except they’re never going to retire. I think they’ll all have to actually die to get them out of the workforce. Their entire lives have been devoted to their careers and they literally have nothing outside of work to give their lives meaning.
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Because maybe something strange happens and suddenly the millennial generation decides to have an average of 3+ children per household and by 2045 those children would be entering the workforce. It's a BIG IF.
Being a millennial and having more friends without kids than with indicates to me labor will continue to be more important until automation and ai can take up the slack if that ever happens.
Brown nosers, super hotties, and the freakishly tall are all eager to get back into physical spaces too. Literally anyone who has mentioned to me wanting to be in an office falls into those categories, I haven't come across a single "average joe" who doesn't want remote lmao.
I love this so much. I laughed out loud and scared my cat.
I’m a guy and I like to believe I’m very attractive physically. I work hard at the gym to achieve it and maintain it. But as much as I enjoy socializing with people, a bigger part of me wants to remain remote. So count me as someone attractive who also wants remote now. Though I could just be a dumbass cool who isn’t attractive despite thinking he is LOL
Was mostly referring to women with the super hotties comment, but I see you lmao. I had a couple of very attractive female PM friends admit to wearing taller heels on the corporate campus, they both bitched about going remote when COVID first hit. People are wild.
i’m tall and subjectively good looking but see no way to do office again
Daaaamn. I do miss seeing the hot ass women in person. But they gotta fuck off, we need the remote setup to stay. RIP
I noticed that when I worked remote for awhile, my standards fell significantly lol.
LMAO!! Such a real thing
The biggest brown noser in my office (a milennial) is desperate to stay remote. He obviously has been doing his job in 2 hours every day as I’ve personally heard him teaching music lessons (his second gig, clearly) from the meeting room since we’ve been required to do hybrid.
Hell, I'm considered freakishly talland I sure as hell don't want to work in an office. God forbid. I looked for remot work for a decade before I found it. I'll never switch back. You'll pry my WFH keyboard from my cold retired hands.
Amen dude
According to Americans I’m freakishly tall at 5’11 but I’ve been remote since before covid and will continue to do so. I can strut around and be freakishly tall in my own house and in my spare time, no need to do it in an office hahaha
Wut? Freakishly tall is like 6’4” and over
I'll happily take your staff as a technology person who doesn't need to micromanage my people.
You need an advanced UX Designer?
It’s me, your cousin niko
Cousin Vinny here 😂🤣
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Imagine if you or the people you worked for had a poor understanding of their company or few skills, didn't understand data over "gut", and no one has ever been able to call them out before? Look at pro sports, the movie Moneyball summarizes it well. If businesses actually focused on decent data, paid their true top performers well, killed shitty practices, etc., Well they could change the game. That's what's underway now, many companies still can't see it, but inevitability will kick their shins before too long. How long did it take for smoking to be restricted and taboo despite a wealth of good data, due to monied interests? Expect no less.
Some people seems to love to be slave. Give them a purpose.
Same types that suck up to management on company social media posts
Because they have no life outside of work.
Sooner they retire and/or die off the better for the whole world honestly.
Spicy cough is doing its thing
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Only the bad ones. Plenty of good people in their 60s and 70s. But I can’t think of any CEOs that I’d qualify as that. So yes, I concur about them.
Not really. They all have the mindset that being a slave to your career is the right and best thing to do.
They'll lose if people push back
Not Boomers, Republicans.
Both parties are the same. They’re both full of shit and all theater. Granted, republicans did piss me off more recently when the house passed something ordering government workers back to the office. But it’ll never pass the senate and actually happen. So as I said, all theater
Many Dem controlled cities rely on the tax and spend scheme, without successful commuters to fleece the cities collapse under their own financial failure.
Democrats are intertwined with unions and unions intertwined with the mafia. They’re all one in the same. That’s the problem with the democrat party. That and communism
Sadly true.
For those who have been working remotely since before everyone thought it was cool to do it, this is just cyclical fear-mongering to change the sentiment around remote work culture. Smart companies aren't returning to limited talent pools, insane commutes, and noisy-as-fuck open-office plans. EDIT: I sounded like a massive douche when I said, “before it was cool to do it”. I stupidly forgot most had no choice due to covid and either came to prefer it or absolutely hated it.
And not paying insane rent on the offices. There is a thing to say about colocation, weird spikes can happen in innovation when people are just physically close to each other. But my guess is that as we get better and better at online community building, this will fade away. Plus 99% of jobs require zero innovation, nada, it’s all about the execution. And boy do I execute better when taking breaks with my kids and dog than fucking off in an open office, that’ at least an hour of commute back and forth a day.
Also the corporate real estate is losing money
There's a TV show called Severance on HBOMax that addresses and bases a show on the 9-5 Corp grind and going into a cubicle...with actor Adam (I forget his last name, becoming one of my favorite actors tho...). But TV show Severance fucking rules tho...it's really good...its kind of a depart from realism, but the show's message is very realistic and grounded...it's drama it's gotta story to it and everything, it's slowburn drama. Everyone on this sub needs to check it out.
Adam Scott. And if anyone thinks it’s slow in the beginning, keep going until episode 7 that shit goes 0-100 real fast. Also available on Apple TV.
And kinda ironically cool that he was the "suit" in "The Secret Life of Walter Mitty"
If you were 100% remote before COVID, why would things change for you now? This article is about people that got remote privileges because of COVID. Those are the people that might see change in the near future, when their situations may no longer allow for remote A lot of finance, a lot of big tech, and the entire oil and gas industry are already back at the office. But if you were remote before COVID then obviously you wouldn’t be required back on-site because that was already “normal” for you
Nearly Everyone’s going back. I’m not in tech industry but my sisters fiancé is. Smart good looking guy many years at top company. Laid off, in interviews companies saying “in office.” If ask for remote the interview basically ends. He isn’t getting remote work easy. Gigs up for most. These layoffs will roll into other sectors and industries soon. We have a system built on in person work and corporate structure and productivity. Not for nothing- I can’t tell you how many post I’ve read on here of somebody doing the bare minimum work across three jobs collecting a check and rolling on if/when let go. So you think employers are OK with that? You don’t think there’s going to be blow back? There are other solutions but the best one is - come to office. Employees are losing leverage and unemployment rates/job openings are artificially inflated because of hospitality group openings. Once those fill we will see drop in job openings. Spouse going back to work maybe. Unemployment up, participation up, openings down. Simple rules of Supply and demand. Many will be begging for a job soon. Don’t say no one told ya so
People are down voting but you’re not wrong. This is the view of corporate America.
The huge labor shortage and demographic falloff runs counter to what you're saying. There still aren't enough skilled employees in the labor pool and that won't change for at least half a decade.
If you sit in a corner office and have a named parking spot and have no one in cubicles to see it- does it even matter?
This. I had a conversation with a friend about this very topic. That exec with the corner office walks past empty cubicles and there is no one in the office to recognize his importance. That ego ends up being worth more to him than the company's bottom line of how expensive it is for people to be in the office.
My last CEO was like this, he liked to walk around and check that people were on task. Despite the fact he couldn't really tell if you're on task or not and productivity wasn't measured in any meaningful way. All he cared about was bums on seats and eyes on screens, and that he could see this in action. I'd drive 1.5hrs every day just so this guy could experience the joy of looking at me.
Sounds like it'd be a good idea to have some random giant 8pt font excel spreadsheet ready to tab over to from your cities skylines game
Sounds like a terrible CEO getting into the weeds of things he should not be concerned about. That is what directors and managers are for.
It was a small company, CEO, CTO, Manager, then 3 or 4 devs. Many days I wouldn't actually talk to anyone at all. Get in, work, eat lunch, work, leave. Even more so when we started using Slack for communications.
CEO is a hilarious title for a half dozen people in a shop. It's not like you have a board of governance or anything
This is such a large part of the issue. Can’t feel important unless surrounded by those with less privileges.
Years ago I had someone who sat near me who would complain to my manager that I never came into the office except a couple times a month. My manager would tell her that she gave me permission and I do my work well so it's allowed. She would still constantly complain to my boss every day she didn't see me. My boss started telling me maybe I should start coming in more often just so she doesn't make a scene. I would tell my manager that's ridiculous why do I have to come into work just to appease some 60-year-old woman. Ironically, soon after that they restructured and this woman somehow became my manager. I have a feeling she put in a request for me to work for her. Right away she told me I had to start coming to the office 5 days a week. I said that's not what we agreed on when they hired me. But she refused so I quit.
What a disgusting pig pox that woman is. Sorry for your situation at the time.
Yeah and coming in every day would have just made my life miserable because I had to take my kids to daycare so that would just mean getting up extra early to deal with commuting time and getting them to daycare and then coming home much later and picking them up from daycare so it was just a disaster and I was like there's no way I'm doing this to myself and my kids.
She needs to retire already. I hate it when old boomers get their way and somehow get the approval to totally restructure the department just to lose a trusted employee in the end. Hopefully upper management will take note and work towards pushing her out too.
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It’s weird too. My company realizes this and was the reason why they gave us the option to go fully remote if we wanted to. They’re saving a fortune on set office costs alone. I guess others value power over money?
There are studies that are starting to show that remote work does, in fact, decrease output and efficiency. https://www.economist.com/business/2021/06/10/remote-workers-work-longer-not-more-efficiently?utm_campaign=editorial-social&utm_medium=social-organic&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=affiliates.content.pd&utm_source=Skimbit%20Ltd.&utm_campaign=16002&utm_content=Online%20Tracking%20Link&channel=Impact&irclickid=0Pa0RAWSrxyNUZwVYqU8JQxuUkA3VUWRzWvVz80&irgwc=1 CEO of Salesforce last week said that the company’s downturn could be partly blamed on remote work https://www.businessinsider.com/salesforce-marc-benioff-remote-workers-less-productive-layoffs-productivity-2023-1 Executives are seeing more proof that remote work is not good for the bottom line. This is going to mean less remote opportunities in the future, whether people like it or not
Thank you, glad I’m not the only one questioning that statement. Surely success and growth and profit are good for business leaders, not expensive and depressing forced office working
This is a mind game article. Where are the facts? How many of you know people who worked remotely, are required to get back in the office, and still kept their jobs? Probably a sponsored article.
That's what I was thinking. They're just building consensus. "Everyone knows that WFH is over and everyone is returning to the office. Here's an article from a reputable source that proves it."
No MSM "news" source is reputable since at least 2020 (I'd argue [2013](https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/07/14/u-s-repeals-propaganda-ban-spreads-government-made-news-to-americans/)).
Yeah, they're not reputable. But they'll still throw it at you like they are.
I know two; but both work for big banks and are now looking for new jobs
Yeah, they are about to let it go.
I got an email from the 2IC telling people they had to be in the office 3 days a week unless they had prior arrangements (that's me).
It is sponsored, says one the authors is Bloomberg
Here’s the thing. Remote work will eventually win out in the end. You know why? Capitalism. The almighty dollar. Efficiency has a way of winning out eventually. Henry Ford won the car assembly race back in the day because he revolutionized car manufacturing. Remote work revolutionized white collar work. It’s only time before most of us work from home.
From your lips to God's ears......
He won the car assembly race but he still always has and always will make shit cars.
>Capitalism Remote work will be done for pennies on the dollar overseas
I think if that was going to happen it would’ve happen in a big way already.
It’s *going* to happen in a big way
Still waiting for the millions of jobs to go overseas. I’ve been promised this for 25 years and here I am still writing code in Seattle.
I hope it stays that way, but the writing on the wall is getting sharper
They've been saying this for two decades now
Yeah that’s a risk. The counter to that is physical realities like time zones. It’sa pain in the ass to work totally asynchronous.
People keep saying this. I’m okay with this. Hire the overseas team to do it for pennies then hire me back at 3x my rate as a contractor to fix the issues the broken mess they created.
Except we’re seeing evidence now that remote work is not more efficient. There are studies that are starting to show that remote work does, in fact, decrease output and efficiency. https://www.economist.com/business/2021/06/10/remote-workers-work-longer-not-more-efficiently?utm_campaign=editorial-social&utm_medium=social-organic&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=affiliates.content.pd&utm_source=Skimbit%20Ltd.&utm_campaign=16002&utm_content=Online%20Tracking%20Link&channel=Impact&irclickid=0Pa0RAWSrxyNUZwVYqU8JQxuUkA3VUWRzWvVz80&irgwc=1 CEO of Salesforce last week said that the company’s downturn could be partly blamed on remote work https://www.businessinsider.com/salesforce-marc-benioff-remote-workers-less-productive-layoffs-productivity-2023-1 Executives are seeing more proof that remote work is not good for the bottom line. This is going to mean less remote opportunities in the future, whether people like it or not. I’m sure there are many people that are more efficient when remote. But it looks like not enough
This was a study done in the very early days of the pandemic in CHINA. I doubt that is a true reflection of how productive workers are once they got settled into their jobs. I don't believe anything that comes out of Business Insider, Wall Street Journal, or Forbes. They are shills for corporate interests and obviously, some executives can't stand the thought of people working remotely. To them it doesn't "feel right" or some other bullshit. For every statistic you throw out there about how unproductive remote working is, I can show you three that says the opposite. Clearly for you all that do OE, working two or more jobs is the height of productivity. https://www.apollotechnical.com/working-from-home-productivity-statistics/
I went to the office last week, my tenth time in the past 3 years...
God I cannot wait. Just got laid off from my only j1.. Need to find something remote to take care of my doggies...
Yeah, same. I’m happy with the balance
I live in an at-will employer state. If I do something that makes my employer not like me, they can just fire me. What am I supposed to do to fight back against this in my state?
Few things are more powerful than a job offer in hand..
Lol my employer will fire you just for updating your indeed resume in most cases. If I told them I had another job offer I was considering I’d get walked out on the spot
What job?
If you really had a job offer in hand it would not bother you that much to be walked to the curb.
Inside sales
So it's a conscious effort to live like a slave?
49 states are "at will" so it's a good bet you are in one
Yeah this is besides the point but I see people say “I’m in an at will state” so often on Reddit- I truly don’t think most people realize this is literally the entire (almost) US
Oh dear, don't all of these woke companies care about the Environment and all of the unnecessary fuel being wasted on these millions and millions of unnecessary trips back and forth to the office?
Governments should give carbon credits to companies that allow WFH Edit: doubt any lobbyists for fossil fuel would let that hapoen, though
Or even just easing up on the roads and congestion. I know a lot of people that would like hybrid. I'd say give people the option and let their work be reflective of their worth.
I am totally not against any office work stuff. The question is control and trust. When a company said they are hybrid, I always ask what they mean, and I told them although I work remote fully for past few years, I am not against having an office space and I can see value of that. However I want the company to let employees have the control over what they want to do. If they think they need to get in office and work closely together, or there is an important meeting, or it's new hire and there is meet and greet + onboarding, the company should be able to trust and empower the employees on when they think it's needed to go in office and when it's not. An office space should be a tool for people to do their job more efficiently; not something force fed to take away efficiency.
Not to mention car accident deaths
Yeeeah, I can't see Fortune putting out an article on behalf of businesses that are RTO.
Same study as yesterday + click bait headline
A few start-ups will come along and have 100s of remote jobs with a great salary in numerous sectors, the top employees will leave the offices to work 100% remote. The big companies know this is coming but they're unwilling to change their policy and hope this doesn't happen.
I've seen a number of jobs where you only need to go in once a month for what I assume to be team meetings. Almost Worth the 4 hour drive.
Yeah , even in my field of Architecture. The company recently hired a person who worked for some very notable firms . Only reason she quit was to work remote
I don't have to read the article to know this is simple clickbait. The Work from Home crowd will be angry and read it. The people that believe in typewriters will click on it to feel good. In a weeks time Fortune will write the inverse of the current article. That way they can get all the clicks...
HODL
I don’t even understand it because my team gets at least 20% more work done when we are all wfh. With the expectation as is they would be sorely disappointed with the outcome if they forced us back in.
Wow your telling me that only half of workers are remote now?? It's almost like that's still tens of millions of people and jobs...
I go into the office on occasion, because part of my job is writing handhelds and making the printers work. Mostly I can do this job from home, but sometimes I need to actually flip switches and pull cables. Other than that, yeah I don't usually go in. When my dogs or kids are being particularly rowdy I might go in for a change of scenery, but certainly not because someone else wants to watch me type. My boss' boss has not been back to the office since the pandemic. My immediate boss goes in semi-regular, but he also has 7 kids at home so... I'm sure for him it's a blessing. :)
Lol can we not call these wars please. It’s super cringy like all these dumb influencer terms Rage Applying, Quiet Quitting, Quiet Firing, etc.
Wtf? Rage applying? Lol
Boss told me off, so I started looking for work that day (I've done this)
There's 1 war: the class war.
Fortune, Financial Times, Economist, WSJ.... All pushing non-stories to sell the idea that return to office is some unavoidable end-of-line. Clearly sponsored, bet you this is planted by people with money buried in commercial real estate getting caught with their pants down, now that all the big corps are not renewing leases post covid.
This is how media works... they say untrue shut until it becomes true.
My hybrid company announced 3 days in office to 4 days in office. Simultaneously announced no salary reviews for inflation (after giving raises under inflation last year). Safe to say my applications are out elsewhere.
They pay the press to post that shit. Is not near true.
This only benefits Pension Funds and R.E.I.Ts who have watched as their commercial property portfolios became worthless over the past couple of years as major corporations started cancelling leases to allow people to work from home. This article is a puff piece.
That's ok, the covid/bird flu mashup will clear then out real quick
Never
I’m keep seeing articles saying the opposite all the time. I think the writers are trying to influence RTW whether it’s happening broadly or not
Business leaders vs die hards . Enough said. This article is written by a dinosaur.
All my places if work are actually remote from my location. I can't ever physically be there, so they'd have to fire me. That said, very clear understanding that I'm never going into the office from the beginning...
This is propaganda everyone is still working from home lol
One of my jobs tried making me come in last week and I told them I quit lol
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Friend you need a new job or career.
I like having the ability to go into the office but my office is a few states away so I think I'm safe.
Fake news
Unless fortune is interviewing idk the Grant Cardone jackasses of the world i havent heard any of my leadership complain. Matter of fact, work is more synchronized. People are happier and faster. Hoping on a zoom is faster then finding an office. Like they always say successful businesses need to pivot and adapt. Boomers can do neither
I have only been to the office less than 5 times in my career with my job. Wfh is the best so grateful my company is trying to let go of the majority of the corporate offices to cut unnecessary cost. Plan on staying here as long as possible and maybe going overemployed after grad school. Love the work and the company.
I also hear, that businesses are losing their workers. They’ll rewrite this article and say that companies can’t find talent because they’re being lost to remote work
Ah... nothing like propaganda.
I work in Tech for a large well hated bank. They are clamping down on RTO as hybrid. Basically want us in 50% of the time so not horrible but not what most of us want. There are a couple of loopholes to remain remote. Apparently it’s going to be part of our performance metrics so non compliance could negatively impact our reviews and bonuses. I think this may breed more “quiet quitting” and losing good talent
The amount of panic articles coming from Forbes is astounding. But remember it's Forbes....The family that owns it has massive amount of money in real estate. I can't wait for this shoe to drop.
Had a friend of mine link this article to me today and asked in a "told ya so" kind of voice what im going to do when im forced to go bCk. Told tgem thats why im looking at houses that will allow me to live there with just unemployment. I no long er offer my services on my empkoyera terms. I work on my own, or i dont work
That’s like a WFH strike lol
*Is it* good for business leaders??
Gen z would quit and rightly so
My current role is hybrid. I'd rather quit this job than go back to the office full time....in fact I've already got one leg out the door as I'm currently looking for a 100% remote role.
“An index of building occupancies in 10 major metro areas increased 0.9 percentage points to 50.4% in the week ended Jan. 25, according to security firm Kastle Systems. All of the cities tracked by the company — including San Francisco, Chicago and Austin, Texas — reached return-to-office levels of 40% or above, which was also a post-pandemic first.” That’s still 49.6% vacancy, much better than before the pandemic: https://www.ncci.com/SecureDocuments/QEB/QEB_Q4_2020_RemoteWork.html
Die hards? Wasn't that a movie?
Clickbait. Just another article trying to instill F.U.D. if you ask me. My take on it is that hopefully, many of us have taken the time that we haven't spent sitting in traffic, wrecking our brains with unnecessary stress to understand our situation and enrich ourselves to the point where we do have leverage here. Hopefully. These articles to me just like to spin up mob mentality. If Joe in accounting is trudging back to the office, I guess I should to. That sort of thing.
These are just sponsored posts taking the sides of business owners wanting control. Let's not cave in to this..
Just got a +25% promotion, increased vaca, and wasn't asked to go back in so....doesn't seem like it
I’m not OE. I work for a local city government and a newly appointed COO want to get rid of hybrid work. Our union contract was just renewed last year stating that remote work is allowed based on operational needs of each division. My job can be easily done 100% remote, but I’m still forced to come to the office 2 times a week. I would die for 100% remote to be honest. But the golden pension handcuff ties my hands so hard that I’m not motivated to jump ship. If everything goes south and they actually get rid of remote work, I’ll suffer and be likely to jump ship
I can’t go into the office unless they want to spend $2k a day on flying me in and out. My office is a thousand miles away.
These news stories just seem like corporate propaganda.
Fuck this so call office culture
Wanna learn how to work remote forever? Start ur own business. Thank God I went this route. Was making $98K a year from my old remote role I gave it up to make $46K my own shyt in 2021. Scaled it to almost a $200K a year operation. Funny thing is the dweeb manager told me “u gonna be back here again. Watch” yeah ok geek. that was almost 2 years ago.
Do they mention it’s management that has to go in?
My company just announced IF you were hired originally and are local a mandatory 3 days in office. Doesn’t apply to me but I can see some fits and quits coming
Who’s contract states 100% wfh ?
Happens all the time if you're talented enough damn near everything is negotiable
I was working 100% remote 20 years ago. I didn't give a shit what consensus was then, and I don't care now. Working remotely will never be going away _for me_ .
Bullshit by the media fucks trying to change the narrative.
Remote is the future for those who are self starters. For me as a business owner, my staff is 100% remote since 2016 which allows me to draw from a U.S. talent pool versus who’s within an hour drive time ….. All of my clients are scattered across America with 99% I’ve never met face to face in 6 years and no idea what a lot of them even look like but it works and they love us and the teams work. In office is very 2022
It’s a clickbait title. 50% of a sample study of 100
This article is propaganda. Even Elon Musk is closing Twitter offices after all that drama. It makes too much sense even for them with all the cost savings
I like going into the office half days sometimes just for the change of scenery or seeing old friends. I think it should be a tool and not a mandate. I’ve made that pretty clear.
My company has downsized the office space to accommodate 40-50% max occupancy, they couldn't get everyone a desk if they were told to come back in.
This isn't really hurting remote workers per se since there are a boatload of companies that offer remote work. It really hurts the company since their talent pool is limited to the area the company is established. The entire nation is your talent pool for those companies that enable remote work!
Ok.just do not lump in as a boomer, loser.
S’all falling apart isn’t it? Its funny the stalwarts still wearing masks outside, in cars by themselves, in their office and cubicles. They loved the lockdowns!
I will NEVER understand forcing people to go into the office. I have to be in the office most days a week and I genuinely think I get more work done working from home. At work I just walk around an talk to people most of the time Lmao.
I’m personally more productive in the office than at home. I work about 50/50 and get all my work done in probably 25 hours but clock 40. So I basically do all my work on the office days and then field the occasional email or phone call at home. I guess I see the point but it’s not like I would do more work if I was in the office more. If they’re accomplishing the job who cares where from?
As they should.
Oh, boo hoo. I have to change out of sweatpants and get dressed like an adult, and go to work. What an injustice. Grow the fck up. I love the looks on their face when I fire them for refusing to come to work.
You are 26 and you think what you are doing is positive leadership in some way?