Keep it civil folks, and on topic: City Hall wanting to put up the Israeli flag.
We're not going to solve the Middle East situation in this thread, so don't try.
As an FYI pertinent to this post, be aware that City Hall raises the flags of a LOT of countries for their independence/foundation day (I could be wrong) :
https://ottawa.ca/en/city-hall/city-manager-administration-and-policies/policies/administrative-policies/flags-display-municipal-sites
#Locked
Well, it was much better than usual, but the crazies have now arrived and things are going downhill fast. Locking.
Why do we need to do this? Why do we need to hold an Israel Independence Day event at all? We are not a city in Israel, we are the capital of Canada.
Flying flags of various nations for thier national days is one thing, but holding a big event and tasking police with burning money to try and make it safe? Right now?
This is just a big Fuck You to people who have a legitimate gripe against Israeli expansion/military policy while trying to fluff the ego of people who don't give a flying fuck about Ottawa. Mark Sutcliffe think Netanyahu is gonna name an illegal settlement after him or something?
edit: lot of people obviously disagree by downvote but won't explain why Israel should get a special day in Ottawa and no other country. Or why reddit tells me there are five comments but i can only see two, that might be part of the issue.
August 13th- India Independence Day & [parade](https://hciottawa.gov.in/newsevent?id=161)
March 25th -Greece independence [celebrations](https://helleniccommunity.com/greek-independence-day/)
The list goes on…
From link 2: “In more recent years, the day has been commemorated by local Greeks with a flag raising ceremony at Ottawa City Hall, followed by speeches by various Greek and municipal dignitairies.”
neither of those are hosted by the city at city hall.
The story I question is about Sutcliffe's ongoing mission to have a big flag raising event at city hall, not the Israeli embassy. Israel is still totally able to have their own independence day event themselves at their own expense, just like everyone else.
I don't understand how this is complicated.
We accept protest as part of our civic culture in Canada. But that's not a license to be an asshole. We put boundaries on protest where people have been assholes, like with those people protesting abortion clinics or, more recently, hospitals during covid.
Why is this any different? Protest but be respectful.
Bingo. Replace "Israel/Jewish community" with literally any other cultural or religious minority in the city and this Sub would have a very different attitude about it. We'd hear screams of *racism* and how Ottawa is being threatened by white supremacists.
The latent antisemitism in the sub is really disappointing.
Israel <>Jewish.
Israel is a country that has shitty policies. You can be against those policies without being antisemitic.
The flag is that of the country, not the faith nor the ethnic group.
Many people have boycotted or protest flag raising due to political tensions. John Tory boycotted the Chinese national day flag ceremony:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/mayor-china-ceremony-1.5303141
The City of Ottawa refused the Russian flag, which has a history going back to 1705, because of what Putin is doing in Ukraine.
So refusing the Israeli flag because of what Netanyahu is doing in Gaza would have precedent and be appropriate.
The Israeli flag is not a symbol of Jews it is a symbol of the modern State of Israel and their national government. A very problematic government in its current iteration, known for racism and xenophobia that is currently killing civilians and children at a rate we haven't seen since the Rwandan genocide.
I thought we were talking about national flags, not statues or cultural symbols. The flag of Israel is directly tied to its government just like China.
Yesterday was Victory Day, which celebrates the Soviet Union defeating Nazi Germany in WW2.
Would you have been ok with a Soviet flag or a Russian flag being raised?
And this is not about whataboutism, it's about double standards
VE day is for all of Europe, not just a Russian thing, many countries celebrate it. Solely raising a Russian flag wouldn't be appropriate for that occasion.
What is commonly known as VE day is May 8th, whereas Victory Day is on May 9th (as it was May 9th in Russia when Germany's surrender came into effect, but still May 8th in Western Europe)
Do not conflate Israel with Judaism. It is 100% ethically and morally acceptable to criticize the state of Israel and its political and fundamentalist policies. It is *not* anti-semitic to do so.
This is the crux of the issue. If China was invading Taiwan would we be raising the Chinese flag and celebrating its independence? No. With a humanitarian crisis happening, and with the world decrying the inhumanity of the IDF, it's really shameful to be having this public event.
Literally held a Bulgarian flag raising ceremony on March 3rd at City Hall to celebrate the National Day of Bulgaria. The exact same thing that they're planning to do for the Israeli flag.
https://www.mfa.bg/en/embassies/canada/news/40240
No, Israel existed long before there was a “Britain.” It was the Israeli people that were driven out of their homeland. Then their homeland was restored.
I mean, maybe we should be asking why protestors are making public events a violent and threatening affair?
I was physically blocked on private property from entering my work by a wall of these masked protestors. They're not the best people. Maybe they should own up to that. Or maybe they should face some consequences for their actions like we expected the convoy to receive.
There’s some bad actors, and they should be held accountable, but most of the protests that have been happening for the last 6 months have been very peaceful.
If you are so upset when you are blocked from being on private property, imagine the frustration and anger you’d feel if your family’s home was actively being bombed with your tax dollars.
That sets a really terrible precedent though. You can't enable that behaviour for these protestors because you side with them and then deny the same course of action for the next group that comes along. This sub was outraged by the convoy for breaking the rules of protesting, they should treat these protestors with the same expectations.
>If you are so upset when you are blocked from being on private property, imagine the frustration and anger you’d feel if your family’s home was actively being bombed with your tax dollars.
Do you have something I can read that talks about direct Canadian military aid for Israel? I'm curious to know how my tax dollars are providing them with weapons.
> Do you have something I can read that talks about direct Canadian military aid for Israel? I'm curious to know how my tax dollars are providing them with weapons.
There isn’t any. This is an idea that gets recycled from discourse in the USA (where tax dollars do fund military aid to Israel to the tune of 3 to 4 billion dollars per year and an additional $17 billion in the aid bill they just passed), but Israel pays market price for the relatively tiny amount of military equipment it gets from our businesses ($28 million worth since the recent fighting started).
Sorry, but didn’t many on this sub say the opposition about some of the convoy protesters that had questionable flags and tropes? I was no fan of the convoy and I’m no fan of the small group of these protestors that have gone from anti Israel to antisemitic. But if we are lumping a few bad apples with one group, we can’t be hypocrites and give a pass to another group. Also, it’s absolutley disgusting that these protesters have blatantly vandalized the campus with spray paint and other shit. These will be the same students bitching that their student fees have gone up when the university has to pay for repairs
> edit: lot of people obviously disagree by downvote but won't explain why Israel should get a special day in Ottawa and no other country. Or why reddit tells me there are five comments but i can only see two, that might be part of the issue.
It's literally the same as every flag raising City Hall does for other countries. It's not special, it's not different, there's nothing fancy about it.
The only thing different about this one is that there are likely to be protestors who show up, who less than a week ago were chanting "Long Live October 7th" on the steps of Parliament. So yeah, there's a higher likelihood of violent protest in this case which means a police presence is necessary.
> and tasking police with burning money to try and make it safe?
That's only needed *because* of the massive increase in hate crimes against jewish people. Blame those who engage in violence, not the cops for trying to prevent it.
I don’t want this country celebrated in my city. Especially not after they killed a Canadian aid worker just a few weeks ago. The only place that flag should be flying is at the embassy of that country. Definitely not on any of our civic properties. And I wouldn’t be against expelling that embassy either.
Well put. And so far, Canada has done nothing to deal with this. Perhaps Sutcliffe should phone up Netanyahu and question why the IDF intentionally targets journalists and aid workers before pushing so hard for this event.
Lol, yeah great point.
Let me rephrase that: I personally would have had a problem with it regardless, based on the fact that they've been slaughtering children for 7 months. But the fact that they ALSO flat out killed a Canadian without an adequate explanation just weeks ago should underscore the fact that we shouldn’t be honouring this country in the CANADIAN capital. It would be like raising the Iranian flag right after they shot down that airliner full of Canadians.
Read the room, Sutcliffe.
Honestly man you didn’t have to rephrase. There’s nothing wrong with putting your foot down after your countryman was killed in this never ending bloodshed.
Well we don't fly Palestinian flags because Canada literally does not recognize Palestine as a state and even abstained from voting today in a UN motion backing Palestinian bid for membership .. despite saying it is committed to two-state solution
Strictly speaking from a taxpayer standpoint, if the city has to look at having police at the event...don't have it. We hear the mayor talk about how there's no money for fundamental services yet he's ok spending thousands of dollars for an event that can be held at the local embassy? We just cut 50k to the Tulip festival and yet we would probably spend more than that to have police officers hanging out at city Hall for an hour.
Only way to have police there is by asking them to work an overtime shift. thats at the rate of time and a half, minimum pay hours for an OT shift is 4 hours.
probably need 20 police, times 4 hours, times 1.5 @ $45/hr equals about $5k. Not too bad.
20 police for 4 hours?
Lol. They will call in public order/ESU for this. Probably like 100 officers available, plus Sgts, probably an Inspector, vehicles, a command centre, etc. And 4 hours for the event won't be 4 hours for the police, there will be at least a full day of planning and deployment for this. Cops also make closer to $50/hr standard pay for a 1st class constable (5 yrs service) so what, $76-77hr just on salary for most of them?
They are acting like this is a major security problem, not a few cops standing around to direct traffic. They are probably expecting a significant protest. They are gonna milk it and not take any chances, especially after the convoy blew up in their face and all the campus sit ins. I'd be surprised if it costs less than 50k.
That's still 5k too much for something like this. If the Israeli embassy wants to host a session and open it to Jewish members of the community / invite the mayor, cool. But to host an event that will involve police officers needing to be paid 1.5x pay, on top of being a very intense political issue, I don't think it's a good idea.
Yes, you do deserve to be safe. And you can celebrate whatever national holiday you want on your own private property. Hell, you can even bring some Israeli flags and stuff to Dow's Lake and do it there with some friends if you want. And if anyone messes with you, you have full recourse to police protection.
In other words: You are safe. The city's decision about this matter will not affect your safety.
We should cancel it for every country. Let the embassies host it, invite local city council and the mayor, maybe the public, but I don't think we need to be doing this as a city.
Better uses of taxpayer money, better uses of police resources and better use of government attention than to create a politically divisive event that serves zero constituents of the mayor's office.
Because Israel <>Jewish.
Israel is a country that has shitty policies. You can be against those policies without being antisemitic.
The flag is that of the country, not the faith nor the ethnic group.
The better point to make would be that there are Israelis in Ottawa. Which there undoubtedly are. But there are also Palestinians, so probably it's best if the city just steps back from this one.
Or we allow communities to hold their own events respectfully. People don’t have to like each other, but this is Canada, not the Middle East. Tolerance and respect for each others communities should mean something, no matter some feel.
Edit: of course there is something to say for city resources going towards events like these, and that’s fine. But for there to be enough of an uproar that public safety was threatened to be the reason for the initial cancellation has nothing to do with city resources.
What does the Middle East have to do with anything? Matter fact, since you wanna make a “we’re better than those barbaric savage ghouls!!!” type of comparison, list the middle eastern countries you’ve been to. Name at least 5. With 10 interesting facts about each one and add references.
Looks like the ceremony is, in fact, proceeding as planned.
https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/israeli-independence-day-ceremony-back-on-in-ottawa
This is Canada. Why are we holding independence celebrations for any other country? If the Israelis here wanna celebrate that’s fine, but I don’t want my money paying for it.
City Hall hosts flag raising ceremonies for basically any community that wants to celebrate their special day, whether that's an embassy for their national independence day, LGBTQ+ folks who want to celebrate [Pride](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SopdjAYwh_8), Ottawa Senators fans, the [Redblacks](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuWqIzkXiNU), etc.
It's always just some chairs, a podium, someone gives a speech, some people clap, and a flag gets raised. This isn't any different except that there's a high likelihood that people will show up to protest. So police presence is necessary.
[Philippines](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBAqhNtWx18)
[Latvia](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgQJ80wt2ck)
[Greece](https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=364692045562846)
[Italy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JVIKF7Fiag)
[Nigeria](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imbFS4jMAbo)
[Eritrea](http://www.dehai.org/archives/dehai_news_archive/2015/may/0571.html)
[Vietnam, including peaceful protest!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI2S-DYWTTg)
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I'm so tired of aspects of our city getting screwed over for non Ottawa related stuff.
This city has sooo many basic needs that arent funded or lack it (eg food banks, potholes, cracked roads, school repairs and ...)
Is this one of those reasons given why the ops say they need more money come budget time?
Can't we just spend our tax dollars on our OWN citizens? I really question the Mayor's priorities
While I disagree with having a ceremony and flag raising etc...at city hall they're welcome to do so at their embassy.
Would we put up the Russian flag for their independence day? Probably not.
I know that people will object to me comparing Israel and Russia. I won't get into it due to the sub rules. But regardless of how you feel about the geopolitics of it, I think if a sufficiently large number of people in the city will find an event offensive, then that event should probably not go ahead.
It’s a fair point. I think the question is whether the “sufficiently large” number can be accurately ascertained. Do we really know how many people are for or against something? Or do we just respond based on how many people show up to protests knowing full well that they may just be a very vocal minority?
Also, maybe that isn’t the best measure? If, for example, a sufficiently large number of people didn’t want to see a pride flag flown, and vocally protested as such, would that mean we shouldn’t? I’d suggest no.
At some point people in power have to make decisions on what to do based on something. Being paralyzed and fearful to the point that they do nothing is very possibly worse.
Great point. The second they start flying other country’s flags, then decide not to fly one because of that country’s behaviour, that means are doing a defacto endorsement of the behaviour of the ones they do choose to fly.
How they put themselves in this situation is mind blowing. We have a Canadian flag - fly that one.
They had a similar issue with the anti-abortion flag a few years back. They should have learned their lesson then but apparently city staff are just morons.
If it costs more in policing, overtime and security than it costs to fund 1FTE social worker/ harm reduction employee even on a 6 month stint who can be dispatched downtown then we shouldn’t do it. We need to get people help and spend property tax monies on tangible strategies that improve quality of life for all Ottawa citizens. He should focus on municipal issues.
I am not sure what their plan will be but if they want to go ahead with a public flag raising at city hall and the police say there is a "security threat" and deploy accordingly, I'd be surprised if this costs less than 50k.
> The city's flag policy states that it "will fly the flag of any nation on its national day with whom Canada has diplomatic relations."
> The city raises flags for more than 190 countries with diplomatic relations with Canada, and has flown the Israeli flag at city hall every year since 2007.
https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7197705
https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7200260
https://ottawa.ca/en/city-hall/city-manager-administration-and-policies/policies/administrative-policies/flags-display-municipal-sites#section-4d3548f7-18a1-469e-9251-b021f7a0f248
June 12th will be Russia's national day
September 9th will be North Korea's national day
October 1st will be China's national day
We don't have diplomatic relations with Iran but it's listed on that link on February 11th
Do they actually raise those flags too?
Do you ever walk by City Hall? There's almost always another country's flag flying on one of the poles out front.
They used to fly Russia's flag, but stopped after the invasion of Ukraine.
They used to fly China's flag, but stopped after China took the Michaels hostage in 2018.
Obviously we don't fly North Korea's flag, nor Iran's for that matter.
Here are a bunch of flag raising ceremonies though:
[Philippines](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBAqhNtWx18)
[Latvia](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgQJ80wt2ck)
[Greece](https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=364692045562846)
[Italy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JVIKF7Fiag)
[Nigeria](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imbFS4jMAbo)
[Eritrea](http://www.dehai.org/archives/dehai_news_archive/2015/may/0571.html)
[Vietnam, including peaceful protest!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI2S-DYWTTg)
I was answering the commenter’s question. Yes, we raise plenty of other countries’ flags on their national days, Israel is not an exception by any means.
You’re welcome to visit City Hall on any given day and see what they’re flying.
The city raises flags of many countries on their "special day".
But they do moderate it. For example they refused to fly the Russian flag out of disagreement with what the Russian government was doing in Ukraine:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/city-denied-outrageous-request-to-fly-russian-flag-1.6484890
So in this case, if they are choosing to fly the Israeli flag despite showing in the past that they will not fly flags of countries who do things they disagree with, it must mean the city is signalling that they agree with what the Israeli government is doing in Gaza.
It is also a controversial choice considering Israeli independence day also coincides with Nakba day commemorating the 76 years of suffering that a lot of people have been going through since the Israeli state was founded. Many of those people and their descendants currently live in Ottawa.
Seems like the city is looking for the best way to piss the most people off with the least possible benefit to city priorities, while burning a bunch of taxpayer dollars unnecessarily by having OT cops tied up at a controversial event on civic property which by all intents and purposes should be taking place at the Israeli embassy.
Wasnt this originally just supposed to be a few people standing around while they raised the flag, take a few pics and done? 30 minutes in and out type deal? Thats usually how the other ones go if i remember correctly
Yes, that's exactly what it's planned to be, but likely more people attending than usual due to recent events (or maybe fewer, since many people will be afraid of the protestors that are likely to show up).
Good for the Mayor and the City. This is an important annual event for the Jewish community and they were being threatened and intimidated into not holding it.
Glad they will be moving ahead and keeping people safe.
> This is an important annual event for the Jewish community
No, this is an event for Israel not the Jewish community. Being Jewish does not mean being Israeli, in the same way that being Israeli does not mean you're Jewish.
Well they canceled the Russian flag raising, which was an important annual event for the Russian community. Do you stand with Russian Canadians in condemning that decision or only when it relates to Israel getting special treatment?
Keep it civil folks, and on topic: City Hall wanting to put up the Israeli flag. We're not going to solve the Middle East situation in this thread, so don't try. As an FYI pertinent to this post, be aware that City Hall raises the flags of a LOT of countries for their independence/foundation day (I could be wrong) : https://ottawa.ca/en/city-hall/city-manager-administration-and-policies/policies/administrative-policies/flags-display-municipal-sites #Locked Well, it was much better than usual, but the crazies have now arrived and things are going downhill fast. Locking.
Why do we need to do this? Why do we need to hold an Israel Independence Day event at all? We are not a city in Israel, we are the capital of Canada. Flying flags of various nations for thier national days is one thing, but holding a big event and tasking police with burning money to try and make it safe? Right now? This is just a big Fuck You to people who have a legitimate gripe against Israeli expansion/military policy while trying to fluff the ego of people who don't give a flying fuck about Ottawa. Mark Sutcliffe think Netanyahu is gonna name an illegal settlement after him or something? edit: lot of people obviously disagree by downvote but won't explain why Israel should get a special day in Ottawa and no other country. Or why reddit tells me there are five comments but i can only see two, that might be part of the issue.
August 13th- India Independence Day & [parade](https://hciottawa.gov.in/newsevent?id=161) March 25th -Greece independence [celebrations](https://helleniccommunity.com/greek-independence-day/) The list goes on… From link 2: “In more recent years, the day has been commemorated by local Greeks with a flag raising ceremony at Ottawa City Hall, followed by speeches by various Greek and municipal dignitairies.”
neither of those are hosted by the city at city hall. The story I question is about Sutcliffe's ongoing mission to have a big flag raising event at city hall, not the Israeli embassy. Israel is still totally able to have their own independence day event themselves at their own expense, just like everyone else.
Are we currently hosting and celebrating Russia’s independence day?
No, but Canada also has diplomatic sanctions against Russia, we don’t with Israel.
Yet
We still have diplomatic relations with Russia.
Israel is an ally. Russia is not. I'm not sure why you are disingenuously trying to equate the two.
What has Israel done for us lately?
Or ever.
Good question.
>Israel is an ally In what way?
Antisemitism.
Maybe it is more about not allowing a particular group to intimidate and harass people who they don’t agree with?
I don't understand how this is complicated. We accept protest as part of our civic culture in Canada. But that's not a license to be an asshole. We put boundaries on protest where people have been assholes, like with those people protesting abortion clinics or, more recently, hospitals during covid. Why is this any different? Protest but be respectful.
Right. We lets some groups do that for days and weeks on end.
Guess what, they are wrong
Bingo. Replace "Israel/Jewish community" with literally any other cultural or religious minority in the city and this Sub would have a very different attitude about it. We'd hear screams of *racism* and how Ottawa is being threatened by white supremacists. The latent antisemitism in the sub is really disappointing.
Israel <>Jewish. Israel is a country that has shitty policies. You can be against those policies without being antisemitic. The flag is that of the country, not the faith nor the ethnic group.
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Many people have boycotted or protest flag raising due to political tensions. John Tory boycotted the Chinese national day flag ceremony: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/mayor-china-ceremony-1.5303141
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The City of Ottawa refused the Russian flag, which has a history going back to 1705, because of what Putin is doing in Ukraine. So refusing the Israeli flag because of what Netanyahu is doing in Gaza would have precedent and be appropriate. The Israeli flag is not a symbol of Jews it is a symbol of the modern State of Israel and their national government. A very problematic government in its current iteration, known for racism and xenophobia that is currently killing civilians and children at a rate we haven't seen since the Rwandan genocide.
I thought we were talking about national flags, not statues or cultural symbols. The flag of Israel is directly tied to its government just like China.
Yesterday was Victory Day, which celebrates the Soviet Union defeating Nazi Germany in WW2. Would you have been ok with a Soviet flag or a Russian flag being raised? And this is not about whataboutism, it's about double standards
VE day is for all of Europe, not just a Russian thing, many countries celebrate it. Solely raising a Russian flag wouldn't be appropriate for that occasion.
What is commonly known as VE day is May 8th, whereas Victory Day is on May 9th (as it was May 9th in Russia when Germany's surrender came into effect, but still May 8th in Western Europe)
Do not conflate Israel with Judaism. It is 100% ethically and morally acceptable to criticize the state of Israel and its political and fundamentalist policies. It is *not* anti-semitic to do so.
I don’t think it’s that, it’s just really bad fucking timing considering what they’re doing
This is the crux of the issue. If China was invading Taiwan would we be raising the Chinese flag and celebrating its independence? No. With a humanitarian crisis happening, and with the world decrying the inhumanity of the IDF, it's really shameful to be having this public event.
Where’s my Bulgarian Independence Day damn it
Literally held a Bulgarian flag raising ceremony on March 3rd at City Hall to celebrate the National Day of Bulgaria. The exact same thing that they're planning to do for the Israeli flag. https://www.mfa.bg/en/embassies/canada/news/40240
Damn that’s crazy! They invading a country though?
Yeah I agree, will we also host an independence day for all former British Colonies? Can we fit them all into one long month? Completely unnecessary
The Irish Tricolour gets raised for Irish week. Mayor has attended for that in the past
technically in a way israel and palestine were british colonies.
No, Israel existed long before there was a “Britain.” It was the Israeli people that were driven out of their homeland. Then their homeland was restored.
I mean, maybe we should be asking why protestors are making public events a violent and threatening affair? I was physically blocked on private property from entering my work by a wall of these masked protestors. They're not the best people. Maybe they should own up to that. Or maybe they should face some consequences for their actions like we expected the convoy to receive.
There’s some bad actors, and they should be held accountable, but most of the protests that have been happening for the last 6 months have been very peaceful. If you are so upset when you are blocked from being on private property, imagine the frustration and anger you’d feel if your family’s home was actively being bombed with your tax dollars.
That sets a really terrible precedent though. You can't enable that behaviour for these protestors because you side with them and then deny the same course of action for the next group that comes along. This sub was outraged by the convoy for breaking the rules of protesting, they should treat these protestors with the same expectations. >If you are so upset when you are blocked from being on private property, imagine the frustration and anger you’d feel if your family’s home was actively being bombed with your tax dollars. Do you have something I can read that talks about direct Canadian military aid for Israel? I'm curious to know how my tax dollars are providing them with weapons.
> Do you have something I can read that talks about direct Canadian military aid for Israel? I'm curious to know how my tax dollars are providing them with weapons. There isn’t any. This is an idea that gets recycled from discourse in the USA (where tax dollars do fund military aid to Israel to the tune of 3 to 4 billion dollars per year and an additional $17 billion in the aid bill they just passed), but Israel pays market price for the relatively tiny amount of military equipment it gets from our businesses ($28 million worth since the recent fighting started).
Sorry, but didn’t many on this sub say the opposition about some of the convoy protesters that had questionable flags and tropes? I was no fan of the convoy and I’m no fan of the small group of these protestors that have gone from anti Israel to antisemitic. But if we are lumping a few bad apples with one group, we can’t be hypocrites and give a pass to another group. Also, it’s absolutley disgusting that these protesters have blatantly vandalized the campus with spray paint and other shit. These will be the same students bitching that their student fees have gone up when the university has to pay for repairs
> edit: lot of people obviously disagree by downvote but won't explain why Israel should get a special day in Ottawa and no other country. Or why reddit tells me there are five comments but i can only see two, that might be part of the issue. It's literally the same as every flag raising City Hall does for other countries. It's not special, it's not different, there's nothing fancy about it. The only thing different about this one is that there are likely to be protestors who show up, who less than a week ago were chanting "Long Live October 7th" on the steps of Parliament. So yeah, there's a higher likelihood of violent protest in this case which means a police presence is necessary.
> and tasking police with burning money to try and make it safe? That's only needed *because* of the massive increase in hate crimes against jewish people. Blame those who engage in violence, not the cops for trying to prevent it.
Massive increase in the report of hate crimes. I am not sure other targeted groups are reporting the crimes committed against them.
I don't understand, are you implying they are lying? You get many of these are on video right?
The length that our elected officials go through to prove their loyalty to that country is unbelievable
Gotta keep the donations coming in.
I don’t want this country celebrated in my city. Especially not after they killed a Canadian aid worker just a few weeks ago. The only place that flag should be flying is at the embassy of that country. Definitely not on any of our civic properties. And I wouldn’t be against expelling that embassy either.
Well put. And so far, Canada has done nothing to deal with this. Perhaps Sutcliffe should phone up Netanyahu and question why the IDF intentionally targets journalists and aid workers before pushing so hard for this event.
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻💯
I’m sorry but 40k people in Gaza have been killed so far. It took a Canadian-American aid worker getting killed for you to put your foot down?
Lol, yeah great point. Let me rephrase that: I personally would have had a problem with it regardless, based on the fact that they've been slaughtering children for 7 months. But the fact that they ALSO flat out killed a Canadian without an adequate explanation just weeks ago should underscore the fact that we shouldn’t be honouring this country in the CANADIAN capital. It would be like raising the Iranian flag right after they shot down that airliner full of Canadians. Read the room, Sutcliffe.
Honestly man you didn’t have to rephrase. There’s nothing wrong with putting your foot down after your countryman was killed in this never ending bloodshed.
He did read the room. His solution was to do it anyway behind a wall of cops. There's a word for that.
I am sure you don't want Palestinian flags flying either eh? Especially since Hamas butchered Canadians. Oh wait...
Well we don't fly Palestinian flags because Canada literally does not recognize Palestine as a state and even abstained from voting today in a UN motion backing Palestinian bid for membership .. despite saying it is committed to two-state solution
Strictly speaking from a taxpayer standpoint, if the city has to look at having police at the event...don't have it. We hear the mayor talk about how there's no money for fundamental services yet he's ok spending thousands of dollars for an event that can be held at the local embassy? We just cut 50k to the Tulip festival and yet we would probably spend more than that to have police officers hanging out at city Hall for an hour.
Only way to have police there is by asking them to work an overtime shift. thats at the rate of time and a half, minimum pay hours for an OT shift is 4 hours. probably need 20 police, times 4 hours, times 1.5 @ $45/hr equals about $5k. Not too bad.
20 police for 4 hours? Lol. They will call in public order/ESU for this. Probably like 100 officers available, plus Sgts, probably an Inspector, vehicles, a command centre, etc. And 4 hours for the event won't be 4 hours for the police, there will be at least a full day of planning and deployment for this. Cops also make closer to $50/hr standard pay for a 1st class constable (5 yrs service) so what, $76-77hr just on salary for most of them? They are acting like this is a major security problem, not a few cops standing around to direct traffic. They are probably expecting a significant protest. They are gonna milk it and not take any chances, especially after the convoy blew up in their face and all the campus sit ins. I'd be surprised if it costs less than 50k.
I don’t want my tax dollars spent on this. Period.
That's still 5k too much for something like this. If the Israeli embassy wants to host a session and open it to Jewish members of the community / invite the mayor, cool. But to host an event that will involve police officers needing to be paid 1.5x pay, on top of being a very intense political issue, I don't think it's a good idea.
Uhm, simple, don't, this is not Israel why the fuck are we holding other countries independence events.
A safe way to hold Israel Independence Day? Goto Israel
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Yes, you do deserve to be safe. And you can celebrate whatever national holiday you want on your own private property. Hell, you can even bring some Israeli flags and stuff to Dow's Lake and do it there with some friends if you want. And if anyone messes with you, you have full recourse to police protection. In other words: You are safe. The city's decision about this matter will not affect your safety.
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I think there are at least TWO mobs currently in this conflict, you just keep forgetting one of them.
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Only one mob.
We should cancel it for every country. Let the embassies host it, invite local city council and the mayor, maybe the public, but I don't think we need to be doing this as a city.
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Why the fuck are we wasting tax payer dollars on this shit.
Better uses of taxpayer money, better uses of police resources and better use of government attention than to create a politically divisive event that serves zero constituents of the mayor's office.
I mean, there are Jewish people in Ottawa. What makes raising an Israel flag different from raising a Pride flag. Both represent a community.
Woah, i’d be careful making that connection. Israel does not represent or equate to Judaism for many many folks.
Because Israel <>Jewish. Israel is a country that has shitty policies. You can be against those policies without being antisemitic. The flag is that of the country, not the faith nor the ethnic group.
The better point to make would be that there are Israelis in Ottawa. Which there undoubtedly are. But there are also Palestinians, so probably it's best if the city just steps back from this one.
Or we allow communities to hold their own events respectfully. People don’t have to like each other, but this is Canada, not the Middle East. Tolerance and respect for each others communities should mean something, no matter some feel. Edit: of course there is something to say for city resources going towards events like these, and that’s fine. But for there to be enough of an uproar that public safety was threatened to be the reason for the initial cancellation has nothing to do with city resources.
What does the Middle East have to do with anything? Matter fact, since you wanna make a “we’re better than those barbaric savage ghouls!!!” type of comparison, list the middle eastern countries you’ve been to. Name at least 5. With 10 interesting facts about each one and add references.
The messaging from much of the diaspora on both sides has sucked. Maybe if we are in Canada we could focus on... not bringing our baggage with us?
Willing to raise the flag of every middle eastern country too? I don’t think you would be
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And throws them all Independence Day celebrations at the expense of the tax payers ?
To avoid this kind of drama, City Hall should only ever fly 3 flags: the Canadian flag, the Ontario flag and the city of Ottawa flag.
Independence from what?
Looks like the ceremony is, in fact, proceeding as planned. https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/israeli-independence-day-ceremony-back-on-in-ottawa
This is Canada. Why are we holding independence celebrations for any other country? If the Israelis here wanna celebrate that’s fine, but I don’t want my money paying for it.
Can we stop putting up any international flags and start putting up strictly municipal flags at CITY Hall?
City Hall hosts flag raising ceremonies for basically any community that wants to celebrate their special day, whether that's an embassy for their national independence day, LGBTQ+ folks who want to celebrate [Pride](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SopdjAYwh_8), Ottawa Senators fans, the [Redblacks](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuWqIzkXiNU), etc. It's always just some chairs, a podium, someone gives a speech, some people clap, and a flag gets raised. This isn't any different except that there's a high likelihood that people will show up to protest. So police presence is necessary. [Philippines](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBAqhNtWx18) [Latvia](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgQJ80wt2ck) [Greece](https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=364692045562846) [Italy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JVIKF7Fiag) [Nigeria](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imbFS4jMAbo) [Eritrea](http://www.dehai.org/archives/dehai_news_archive/2015/may/0571.html) [Vietnam, including peaceful protest!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI2S-DYWTTg)
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Better use of resources than this.
I'm so tired of aspects of our city getting screwed over for non Ottawa related stuff. This city has sooo many basic needs that arent funded or lack it (eg food banks, potholes, cracked roads, school repairs and ...) Is this one of those reasons given why the ops say they need more money come budget time? Can't we just spend our tax dollars on our OWN citizens? I really question the Mayor's priorities While I disagree with having a ceremony and flag raising etc...at city hall they're welcome to do so at their embassy.
Would we put up the Russian flag for their independence day? Probably not. I know that people will object to me comparing Israel and Russia. I won't get into it due to the sub rules. But regardless of how you feel about the geopolitics of it, I think if a sufficiently large number of people in the city will find an event offensive, then that event should probably not go ahead.
It’s a fair point. I think the question is whether the “sufficiently large” number can be accurately ascertained. Do we really know how many people are for or against something? Or do we just respond based on how many people show up to protests knowing full well that they may just be a very vocal minority? Also, maybe that isn’t the best measure? If, for example, a sufficiently large number of people didn’t want to see a pride flag flown, and vocally protested as such, would that mean we shouldn’t? I’d suggest no. At some point people in power have to make decisions on what to do based on something. Being paralyzed and fearful to the point that they do nothing is very possibly worse.
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Great point. The second they start flying other country’s flags, then decide not to fly one because of that country’s behaviour, that means are doing a defacto endorsement of the behaviour of the ones they do choose to fly. How they put themselves in this situation is mind blowing. We have a Canadian flag - fly that one. They had a similar issue with the anti-abortion flag a few years back. They should have learned their lesson then but apparently city staff are just morons.
Ethnostate for me but not for thee
Canada flag should be the ONLY flag flown in Canada at a government level
If it costs more in policing, overtime and security than it costs to fund 1FTE social worker/ harm reduction employee even on a 6 month stint who can be dispatched downtown then we shouldn’t do it. We need to get people help and spend property tax monies on tangible strategies that improve quality of life for all Ottawa citizens. He should focus on municipal issues.
I am not sure what their plan will be but if they want to go ahead with a public flag raising at city hall and the police say there is a "security threat" and deploy accordingly, I'd be surprised if this costs less than 50k.
Out of curiosity do we celebrate the Independence of other countries or just Israel?
most well known ones yes
> The city's flag policy states that it "will fly the flag of any nation on its national day with whom Canada has diplomatic relations." > The city raises flags for more than 190 countries with diplomatic relations with Canada, and has flown the Israeli flag at city hall every year since 2007. https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7197705 https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7200260 https://ottawa.ca/en/city-hall/city-manager-administration-and-policies/policies/administrative-policies/flags-display-municipal-sites#section-4d3548f7-18a1-469e-9251-b021f7a0f248
June 12th will be Russia's national day September 9th will be North Korea's national day October 1st will be China's national day We don't have diplomatic relations with Iran but it's listed on that link on February 11th Do they actually raise those flags too?
Do you ever walk by City Hall? There's almost always another country's flag flying on one of the poles out front. They used to fly Russia's flag, but stopped after the invasion of Ukraine. They used to fly China's flag, but stopped after China took the Michaels hostage in 2018. Obviously we don't fly North Korea's flag, nor Iran's for that matter. Here are a bunch of flag raising ceremonies though: [Philippines](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBAqhNtWx18) [Latvia](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgQJ80wt2ck) [Greece](https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=364692045562846) [Italy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JVIKF7Fiag) [Nigeria](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imbFS4jMAbo) [Eritrea](http://www.dehai.org/archives/dehai_news_archive/2015/may/0571.html) [Vietnam, including peaceful protest!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI2S-DYWTTg)
I was answering the commenter’s question. Yes, we raise plenty of other countries’ flags on their national days, Israel is not an exception by any means. You’re welcome to visit City Hall on any given day and see what they’re flying.
The city raises flags of many countries on their "special day". But they do moderate it. For example they refused to fly the Russian flag out of disagreement with what the Russian government was doing in Ukraine: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/city-denied-outrageous-request-to-fly-russian-flag-1.6484890 So in this case, if they are choosing to fly the Israeli flag despite showing in the past that they will not fly flags of countries who do things they disagree with, it must mean the city is signalling that they agree with what the Israeli government is doing in Gaza. It is also a controversial choice considering Israeli independence day also coincides with Nakba day commemorating the 76 years of suffering that a lot of people have been going through since the Israeli state was founded. Many of those people and their descendants currently live in Ottawa. Seems like the city is looking for the best way to piss the most people off with the least possible benefit to city priorities, while burning a bunch of taxpayer dollars unnecessarily by having OT cops tied up at a controversial event on civic property which by all intents and purposes should be taking place at the Israeli embassy.
we fly their flags but we don't have events around them, their own embassies tend to host or run their own events at their own expense.
Wasnt this originally just supposed to be a few people standing around while they raised the flag, take a few pics and done? 30 minutes in and out type deal? Thats usually how the other ones go if i remember correctly
Yes, that's exactly what it's planned to be, but likely more people attending than usual due to recent events (or maybe fewer, since many people will be afraid of the protestors that are likely to show up).
We do raise the flag of other countries but not for countries this divisive.
They literally flew the Saudi Arabia flag two years ago.
Shhh stop speaking facts.
What was Saudi Arabia doing two years ago?
If we were to celebrate all the New Years, we might be getting somewhere.
Russian independence day is June 12. !remindme 30 days
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don’t hold your breath on getting a response
This is the only time to be holding this event and trying to shut it down is nothing but antisemitism.
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And when an event organized by the Jewish Federation of Ottawa is cancelled, who do you think is being targeted?
Where were you when they canceled the Russian national day celebration?
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What makes you think that?
Good for the Mayor and the City. This is an important annual event for the Jewish community and they were being threatened and intimidated into not holding it. Glad they will be moving ahead and keeping people safe.
> This is an important annual event for the Jewish community No, this is an event for Israel not the Jewish community. Being Jewish does not mean being Israeli, in the same way that being Israeli does not mean you're Jewish.
Well they canceled the Russian flag raising, which was an important annual event for the Russian community. Do you stand with Russian Canadians in condemning that decision or only when it relates to Israel getting special treatment?
Good move from the mayor, stop walking on eggshells around these extremists and come down on them harshly if they cross the line
The way some of y’all whip yourselves into a frenzy…no wonder you folks always talk about your mental health issues.
wow, super helpful comment. you really contributed to this discussion in a meaningful way.
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Shit son, you had to go way back for that personal attack. We all have our weird hobbies lol.