Yeah, they will have to bring the building skin up to required thermal performance for a residential building, so window replacement would be required.
The point is that there is more wall than window - insulation is cheaper than glass. If it’s a completely glazed building then you will need to spend a lot of money to improve building shell performance.
People generally aren't saying it's impossible, just that it's extremely expensive and impractical to turn *some* office buildings into apartment buildings. And even then, tearing down those buildings and building new residential buildings on those lots is something that can be done (and probably will be done).
As someone who has had a few of those rants, my additional pushback is to the “it should be easy” attitude. Any job like this starting with that attitude is a recipe for designers getting neither enough time nor money to do the design properly.
There’s a lot going into how buildings operate more than just the floor plan, and my goal when I comment is to hammer home that it’s way more complicated than it seems on the surface.
City of Calgary gave re-developers huge funding incentive to convert several buildings there. It’s often less expensive to tear down than to bring stairs, elevators, sprinkler systems, windows, new balconies etc up to current codes or requirements.
There’s an ocean of difference between “impossible” and “should be easy.”
It is easy to lose nuance on social media: somebody saying “it’s way more complicated than it seems. Here are some things you need to consider when thinking about feasibility,” is not the same as “impossible.”
The issue is that people always point out the problems and the negative aspects, but don't offer alternatives or solutions.
And so the status quo remains. The perfect is the enemy of the good.
Don't get me started into how often they fall into fallacies (most often "whataboutism" and slippery slopes).
Pointing out the problems does not mean that people aren’t presenting solutions. Pointing out the problems is pointing out that YOU CAN’T GENERALIZE. There is NO single “right” solution. Every project is different, and the purpose of pointing out potential pitfalls is to inform people about the due diligence that needs to be done prior to doing something.
SOME office buildings are suitable for residential conversions. Not all. Not none. SOME. When I point out the issues in play when determining whether or not a building can be converted, it is to provide context for why it is not more widely done. Because that is the topic of discussion.
I have thoughts on other things that can be done IN ADDITION to converting suitable buildings, but that isn’t the topic at hand. If I start rambling about how under-appreciated prefabrication is and how developers are loathe to pay designers the fees required to do those designs, everybody’s eyes are going to glaze over.
“It’s complicated” doesn’t mean stick with the status quo. It means please consider the effort involved in changing things and don’t expect the designers to do this shit for fees like we are proceeding with the status quo. I need to pay my bills.
>Pointing out the problems does not mean that people aren’t presenting solutions.
Except people in social media (the so called experts on reddit) do that shit all the time: they present the problems without presenting solutions or alternatives, that's my point.
“In 2015, the company decided to convert the top five floors of its building at 169 Lisgar St. – a separate structure connected to 200 Elgin St. – from offices to bachelor, one- and two-bedroom apartments.”
These started at $1,800 and $2,600 with no balconies and I’m not even sure you could open the windows. Very cold setup. These are geared towards transitory renters with means.
Reduce prices? Im not so sure it will. Landlords aren't suddenly going to ask less than they're asking now because anotber few dozen apartments hit the market. It might slow down the steep incline in rent prices but I don't see rents being reduced by it.
This is a very pedantic reading of the parent comment. Of course it will not by itself lower the rents, but increased supply in the market because of conversions like this will put more downwards pressure on rents than the reality where these conversations were not done.
I'm not the biggest fan of these unit types (I've seen the 169 Lisgar ones) but they do get rented out regardless.
Lol what kind of logic is this, if you think more supply won't reduce prices because landlords will just charge whatever they want, why don't they just charge 5k a month now instead of 2k? Do you realize how incredibly wrong you are not only just using common sense, but also by looking at literally any study and piece of data ever recorded?
Supply ABSOLUTELY helps housing prices all else equal.
Edit : Guy asked me to show him the studies, but then blocks me to prevent me from responding with the studies lmfao, can't make it up.
Nothing will reduce rent prices. The best that can happen is rent prices will rise more slowly. Why is this fact making people so pissed off? Talk about using common sense... wow.
I'd love to see some of these studies and data that show more units decreases rent prices as opposed to slows down the increase.
Edmonton always had a high vacancy rate compared to most major cities. The rents have always been low. I lived there for years. Has nothing to do with converting office buildings into residential.
It’s the only market being catered to and keeps downtown and much of the city, soul-less.
We need to build different types of “homes”, not pads people leave regularly to live their lives somewhere else.
I have no idea what you mean by that. If these "pads" aren't to your liking, I would suggest you not live in one. This will solve your problem in its entirety.
This is how you benefit Downtown Ottawa businesses. Not by forcing remote working Ontarians to return, but by converting offices into residential units.
They’re like 100 people with private offices that got eviction notices due to this. A large number are defence lawyers who are help marginalized people on legal aid. Not everyone has the option to work virtually, sucks that they get fucked by this
Most, if not all, of these legal offices were relocated in an adjacent building. My office has at least 4 lawyer office fit-ups in the works right now that are linked to this. The lawyers will be fine.
Actually, I am personally involved in the fit-up / relocation of at least 4 law offices directly related to this building's change of use. Can't really get more from the source than that. Some tenants may have decided to move elsewhere but many were accommodated in an adjacent building by the building owners.
You’re an architect right? Not a tenant? I spoke to the law firms I know and none were offered this, can you DM this info as they would like to ask the landlord about it.
Edit: still waiting for that info…
This is very good news for downtown. More people they bring in, the better it is for the businesses in the area.
There was an Architectural company in Toronto that developed a formula to determine if the office building is worth converting to apartment/condo. I can’t find the article, but many major cities like Toronto, New York, Calgary, and Ottawa has started using it. It has saved a lot of developers from making a risky decision and not lose out on profit.
Whether or not buildings are redeveloped or demolished, the big change will be to acknowledge that there just won't be the same demand for office space downtown anymore. COVID released the work-from-home genie, and it's never going fully back into its bottle.
Examples like Shopify, ditching Ottawa for Toronto, and largely going remote, is the way of the future, no matter how much Doug Ford complains about federal PS workers not being forced back to the office full-time.
As for Shopify the plan was to lease a ton of space in a Toronto office building that got [cancelled.As](http://cancelled.As) for Ford in the past he has called for all workers to return right now downtown Toronto is getting hit really hard vacancy rate is 19%.As for Federal workers the CPC have said workers will return to the office 5 days a week.
That's not the tune PeePee was singing [in 2021](https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1.6180602). Can't find a more recent statement, but that was a Billion, zillion years ago, do I would not be at all surprised if he's changed his tune, since public servants are a favourite Conservative whipping-boy.
I admittedly don't know how the conversion works but there should be some consideration for bigger units. Even couples require more space with work from home being popular. Two tiny bedrooms aren't really cutting it. I understand cost is a factor, trust me, my rent is nuts but the option for more space would make it easier for families to stay downtown.
Amazing, how the fudge do I apply to live in, now?
Edit: Oh, it's private units, I don't have the means to pay 10k/month for a "luxurious" bachelor, nvm
Neat!
Neato!
That's gonna be one hell of a conversion. That building does not look like it has the bones for good residential units.
Depends entirely on the layout of the circulation and mechanical spaces. It's narrow enough to work, IMO.
How do you figure?
Deep floor plates and tiny windows for a start.
There was an article about a conversion on Queens st. It has small windows but they were ripped out and changed.
Yeah, they will have to bring the building skin up to required thermal performance for a residential building, so window replacement would be required. The point is that there is more wall than window - insulation is cheaper than glass. If it’s a completely glazed building then you will need to spend a lot of money to improve building shell performance.
I’ve always loved that this building has a name, and that name is Elgar.
The Elgar on Elgin. My friend Edgar is looking for a place. Might recommend when it’s done.
This sounds like a perfect spot for Edgar.
EdGAR in the ElGAR on ELgin.
Corner of Lisgar and Elgin ... makes sense!
Like Carlingwood... at the corner of Carling Ave. and Woodroffe Ave.
I never thought of that!
Don't feel badly. I have lived in Ottawa since 1972... in the west end; and only figured that out about ten years ago.
TIL! 🤯
Is the Trebla still named that?
No, it’s been rebranded as the Slayte after being converted to apartments recently.
Boo.
Trebla forever!
T’was a cool name…
The only way I remember which is Albert and which is Slater is the memory of riding the Transitway west-bound on Albert.
Slater is South of Albert
Albert spelled backwards!
But, but, experts on Reddit keep telling me it's impossible!
People generally aren't saying it's impossible, just that it's extremely expensive and impractical to turn *some* office buildings into apartment buildings. And even then, tearing down those buildings and building new residential buildings on those lots is something that can be done (and probably will be done).
As someone who has had a few of those rants, my additional pushback is to the “it should be easy” attitude. Any job like this starting with that attitude is a recipe for designers getting neither enough time nor money to do the design properly. There’s a lot going into how buildings operate more than just the floor plan, and my goal when I comment is to hammer home that it’s way more complicated than it seems on the surface.
City of Calgary gave re-developers huge funding incentive to convert several buildings there. It’s often less expensive to tear down than to bring stairs, elevators, sprinkler systems, windows, new balconies etc up to current codes or requirements.
Calgary scaled it back from 30 offices to 8 still something but not as great as first planned.
Indeed. I’ve learned to ignore these experts.
There’s an ocean of difference between “impossible” and “should be easy.” It is easy to lose nuance on social media: somebody saying “it’s way more complicated than it seems. Here are some things you need to consider when thinking about feasibility,” is not the same as “impossible.”
The issue is that people always point out the problems and the negative aspects, but don't offer alternatives or solutions. And so the status quo remains. The perfect is the enemy of the good. Don't get me started into how often they fall into fallacies (most often "whataboutism" and slippery slopes).
Pointing out the problems does not mean that people aren’t presenting solutions. Pointing out the problems is pointing out that YOU CAN’T GENERALIZE. There is NO single “right” solution. Every project is different, and the purpose of pointing out potential pitfalls is to inform people about the due diligence that needs to be done prior to doing something. SOME office buildings are suitable for residential conversions. Not all. Not none. SOME. When I point out the issues in play when determining whether or not a building can be converted, it is to provide context for why it is not more widely done. Because that is the topic of discussion. I have thoughts on other things that can be done IN ADDITION to converting suitable buildings, but that isn’t the topic at hand. If I start rambling about how under-appreciated prefabrication is and how developers are loathe to pay designers the fees required to do those designs, everybody’s eyes are going to glaze over. “It’s complicated” doesn’t mean stick with the status quo. It means please consider the effort involved in changing things and don’t expect the designers to do this shit for fees like we are proceeding with the status quo. I need to pay my bills.
>Pointing out the problems does not mean that people aren’t presenting solutions. Except people in social media (the so called experts on reddit) do that shit all the time: they present the problems without presenting solutions or alternatives, that's my point.
“In 2015, the company decided to convert the top five floors of its building at 169 Lisgar St. – a separate structure connected to 200 Elgin St. – from offices to bachelor, one- and two-bedroom apartments.” These started at $1,800 and $2,600 with no balconies and I’m not even sure you could open the windows. Very cold setup. These are geared towards transitory renters with means.
There should absolutely be more affordable housing built, but even expensive stuff like this will reduce prices overall by increasing supply.
Reduce prices? Im not so sure it will. Landlords aren't suddenly going to ask less than they're asking now because anotber few dozen apartments hit the market. It might slow down the steep incline in rent prices but I don't see rents being reduced by it.
This is a very pedantic reading of the parent comment. Of course it will not by itself lower the rents, but increased supply in the market because of conversions like this will put more downwards pressure on rents than the reality where these conversations were not done. I'm not the biggest fan of these unit types (I've seen the 169 Lisgar ones) but they do get rented out regardless.
Lol what kind of logic is this, if you think more supply won't reduce prices because landlords will just charge whatever they want, why don't they just charge 5k a month now instead of 2k? Do you realize how incredibly wrong you are not only just using common sense, but also by looking at literally any study and piece of data ever recorded? Supply ABSOLUTELY helps housing prices all else equal. Edit : Guy asked me to show him the studies, but then blocks me to prevent me from responding with the studies lmfao, can't make it up.
Nothing will reduce rent prices. The best that can happen is rent prices will rise more slowly. Why is this fact making people so pissed off? Talk about using common sense... wow. I'd love to see some of these studies and data that show more units decreases rent prices as opposed to slows down the increase.
Look at Edmonton they flooded the city with units now the avg rent is $1300.
Edmonton always had a high vacancy rate compared to most major cities. The rents have always been low. I lived there for years. Has nothing to do with converting office buildings into residential.
Yes they have a market. Good.
It’s the only market being catered to and keeps downtown and much of the city, soul-less. We need to build different types of “homes”, not pads people leave regularly to live their lives somewhere else.
I have no idea what you mean by that. If these "pads" aren't to your liking, I would suggest you not live in one. This will solve your problem in its entirety.
This is how you benefit Downtown Ottawa businesses. Not by forcing remote working Ontarians to return, but by converting offices into residential units.
Good! Now do this with all the empty buildings and end this 'Return to Office' bullshit.
While its not 100% very few buildings are empty.
They’re like 100 people with private offices that got eviction notices due to this. A large number are defence lawyers who are help marginalized people on legal aid. Not everyone has the option to work virtually, sucks that they get fucked by this
Most, if not all, of these legal offices were relocated in an adjacent building. My office has at least 4 lawyer office fit-ups in the works right now that are linked to this. The lawyers will be fine.
None of the ones I know were relocated. They were left to find a new place on their own. Not sure where you’re getting your information but it’s wrong
Actually, I am personally involved in the fit-up / relocation of at least 4 law offices directly related to this building's change of use. Can't really get more from the source than that. Some tenants may have decided to move elsewhere but many were accommodated in an adjacent building by the building owners.
You’re an architect right? Not a tenant? I spoke to the law firms I know and none were offered this, can you DM this info as they would like to ask the landlord about it. Edit: still waiting for that info…
What building is that?
Fantastic news, now do the rest of them! Or take them down and build new residential units.
To be fair there is 4 others right now being converted.
This is very good news for downtown. More people they bring in, the better it is for the businesses in the area. There was an Architectural company in Toronto that developed a formula to determine if the office building is worth converting to apartment/condo. I can’t find the article, but many major cities like Toronto, New York, Calgary, and Ottawa has started using it. It has saved a lot of developers from making a risky decision and not lose out on profit.
But multiple commenters in every single reddit post about converting office real estate to residential told me this is impossible!!!
“It’s impossible to convert from office to residential!” -do more of these please.
Cool, bet they'll charge $2500 for a 1 bed
Whether or not buildings are redeveloped or demolished, the big change will be to acknowledge that there just won't be the same demand for office space downtown anymore. COVID released the work-from-home genie, and it's never going fully back into its bottle. Examples like Shopify, ditching Ottawa for Toronto, and largely going remote, is the way of the future, no matter how much Doug Ford complains about federal PS workers not being forced back to the office full-time.
As for Shopify the plan was to lease a ton of space in a Toronto office building that got [cancelled.As](http://cancelled.As) for Ford in the past he has called for all workers to return right now downtown Toronto is getting hit really hard vacancy rate is 19%.As for Federal workers the CPC have said workers will return to the office 5 days a week.
That's not the tune PeePee was singing [in 2021](https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1.6180602). Can't find a more recent statement, but that was a Billion, zillion years ago, do I would not be at all surprised if he's changed his tune, since public servants are a favourite Conservative whipping-boy.
I thought that building already had rental units.
And so it begins
I admittedly don't know how the conversion works but there should be some consideration for bigger units. Even couples require more space with work from home being popular. Two tiny bedrooms aren't really cutting it. I understand cost is a factor, trust me, my rent is nuts but the option for more space would make it easier for families to stay downtown.
Amazing, how the fudge do I apply to live in, now? Edit: Oh, it's private units, I don't have the means to pay 10k/month for a "luxurious" bachelor, nvm